House Of Commons
Thursday, 28th April, 1966
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
Prayers
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Private Business
Brighton Corporation Bill (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
Greater London Council (General Powers) Bill (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Monday next at Seven o'clock.
Oral Answers To Questions
Home Department
Radar Sation, Norfolk (Fire)
1.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why the oxygen breathing apparatus issued to firemen who died at the Neatishead, Norfolk, radar station fire in February failed to protect them.
My right hon. Friend and I deeply regret this tragedy and would like to express our sympathy with the relatives of the three firemen who died. However, I understand that the inquest into their deaths stands adjourned until today and it would therefore not he proper for me to comment on the circumstances at this stage.
While thanking my right hon. Friend for her reply, may I ask whether, in view of the widespread concern in Norfolk, she will give sympathetic consideration to the holding of a public inquiry?
Yes, we will certainly keep in mind the possibility of holding a public inquiry, but I am not sure my hon. Friend appreciates I am not in a position today to make any statement about it.
Will the right hon. Lady agree that neither the Norfolk Fire Service nor, for that matter, any other can afford to lose men of the calibre and great experience of the inspector from Holt and his two colleagues who lost their lives in such tragic circumstances?
Yes, I fully agree with those sentiments.
Littlewood Report
2.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the recommendations of the Littlewood Report are to be implemented.
Legislation will be needed to implement most of the recommendations and I cannot at present say when this will be possible. A scheme for strengthening the Inspectorate is being examined. Proposals for a new Advisory Committee will shortly be put to interested bodies.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this is a matter which has caused very considerable public concern? There is a Report, and surely this House is entitled to expect that this matter will be debated somewhere in the comparatively near future?
The hon. Member, I thought, was asking me not when the recommendations would be debated but when they would be implemented.
Police Expenditure
3.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans he has to reorganise the financing of police expenditure.
None, Sir.
Will the right hon. Gentleman look at this again with his right hon. Friends, because we have heard a great deal about relieving the rate burden, and the nexus between local authorities and the police as regards control is a complete sham, and this is a really substantial area of economy for the rates which might be borne where it should properly be borne—by the taxpayers and not the ratepayers?
I am not convinced that this is harmful to police efficiency at the present time, to which I attach the greatest possible importance. I will, of course, look at this matter as I am constantly looking at all matters of police administration.
Easter
6.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to hear the results of the inquiry by the World Council of Churches into the possibility of a fixed Easter; and if he will make a statement.
I cannot yet give a date. The inquiry being conducted by the World Council of Churches is far reaching and will take some considerable time to complete.
Could not the Government give an elbow a bit of a nudge in order to get this matter settled once arid for all?
Yes, we will do what we can because, of course, we recognise the advantages of a fixed Easter, but I am sure that the hon. Member will appreciate that account has to be taken of various religious views.
Rent Act, 1965 (Section 30)
7.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what instructions have been given to the police in the Metropolitan Police force about alleged cases of intimidation under Section 30 of the Rent Act, 1965.
I am informed by the Commissioner that in such cases officers are instructed to deal with any breach of the peace or other violence and to make it clear that if an offence under Section 30 of the Rent Act, 1965, is committed criminal proceedings may follow. Those concerned are also told that the police will send an immediate report to the local housing authority to enable it to consider whether there is a case for further investigation, with a view to prosecution.
Is the Secretary of State aware that some cases of alleged intimidation have taken place in the middle of the night, and that it is absolutely useless, from the point of view of a person being victimised, for the police to say that they are going to send a report to the local authority in the morning? Will he issue further instructions to them that they are to take action to arrest persons on the spot if intimidation is taking place?
The police certainly do prevent intimidation from taking place, but it is extremely difficult for the police in confused circumstances, whether they be in the middle of the night or at any other time, to interpret the intricacies of the Rent Act legislation. This is a difficulty, but I have had, and will continue to have, discussions with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing about this matter.
Is the Secretary of State aware, although I agree that the police are making efforts, that there are still certain loopholes, and may I ask the Secretary of State to see with the other Minister that all these loopholes are once and for all firmly closed?
I will certainly study any evidence on this point my hon. Friend would like to put to me.
Street Offences Act, 1959
10.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will seek to amend the Street Offences Act, 1959, to do away with the special laws against common prostitutes which would include repealing Section 1(1) of the Act and replacing it by a clause applicable to all citizens, whether men or women, who cause annoyance or nuisance by loitering or soliciting in the streets or public places.
My right hon. Friend has no proposals for legislation on this subject.
May I ask the hon. Gentleman to look at this again, in view of the decision on appeal in the Crook v. Edmondson case, where it was agreed, with one judge dissenting, that Edmondson had been persistently soliciting women in the street and could not be caught under Section 32 of the Sexual Offences Act, 1956?
The Act to which the hon. Lady refers was concerned particularly with prostitution in the streets. There are a number of Measures under which men who cause a nuisance in the streets can be dealt with, depending very much on their behaviour, such as the Metropolitan Police Act, 1839, and certain local Acts.
Domestic Heaters
8.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will state the extent of casualties from domestic oil burners during the six years prior to the Oil Burners (Standards) Act, 1960, and the
These particulars are available only from 1957 onwards and are as follows: | ||||||||||
FATAL CASUALTIES (ENGLAND AND WALES) | ||||||||||
In homes and residential institutions
| Outside the home or residential institution
| Totals of Cols. (1) and (2) (3)
| ||||||||
Male
| Female
| Total
| Male
| Female
| Total
| Male
| Female
| Total
| ||
1957 | … | 9 | 17 | 26 | — | — | — | 9 | 17 | 26 |
1958 | … | 14 | 17 | 31 | — | — | — | 14 | 17 | 31 |
1959 | … | 23 | 18 | 41 | — | — | — | 23 | 18 | 41 |
1960 | … | 23 | 22 | 45 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 25 | 23 | 48 |
1961 | … | 20 | 17 | 37 | 2 | — | 2 | 22 | 17 | 39 |
1962 | … | 23 | 35 | 58 | 1 | — | 1 | 24 | 35 | 59 |
1963 | … | 25 | 42 | 67 | — | 1 | 1 | 25 | 43 | 68 |
1964 | … | 15 | 31 | 46 | — | — | — | 15 | 31 | 46 |
1965* | … | 18 | 43 | 61 | — | — | — | 18 | 43 | 61 |
*Provisional figures. | ||||||||||
Particulars of non-fatal casualties are not available. |
Places Of Worship (Sacrilege And Arson)
12.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce legislation to codify sentences imposed by the courts in cases of sacrilege and arson against places of worship.
The maximum penalty for sacrilege or for setting fire to a place of worship is imprisonment for life. It must remain for the courts to decide what penalty should be imposed in any particular case.
Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a very strange contrast between the maximum sentence which can be imposed and recent sentences of two or three days which were imposed on members of a Fascist organi-
six years since; and what is his policy regarding oil burners not conforming to the minimum standards of the regulations issued under the statute and still in use.
As the Answer to the first part of the Question is long I shall, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. An amendment to the existing Regulations, shortly to be laid before the House, will bring the sale of all oil-heaters, regardless of their date of manufacture, within the scope of the Regulations. My right hon. Friend has no power to control the use of oil-heaters by householders in their own homes.
May I congratulate the hon. Lady upon a magnificent and constructive Answer to my Question?
Following is the information:
sation who burned down a synagogue in my constituency at considerable cost—
Order. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to criticise a specific instance of wrong done by a court, he must do it by a Motion on the Order Paper.
Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance to the House that he will make quite sure that prosecuting authorities will pursue these cases with the utmost vigilance?
Certainly I will give that assurance. I think that every decent person viewed those particular offences with horror. In fact, my right hon. Friend the Minister of State received a deputation from the Board of Deputies of British Jews to discuss recent cases, and members of that deputation expressed appreciation of the part which was played by the police in recent cases of this type.
While the Minister will no doubt understand that many of us will not seek to criticise a judge of the High Court for imposing any kind of sentence within his discretion, is not the Minister a little horrified at what happened?
It would be very dangerous for us to express any opinion on particular sentences passed by particular judges. It would be wrong for any minimum sentence to be imposed in these cases, because it must be for the judge to determine the circumstances of a particular case and deal with the offender.
Is the Minister aware that these offences are increasing, not only in synagogues but in many churches which are open for prayer all day? Will he send a circular to police forces drawing attention to the need to enforce this part of the existing law?
I will look at that matter.
Would particular notice be taken of any evidence revealed in cases that have come before the courts that would justify the Director of Public prosecutions taking proceedings against people who are named and who are alleged to be inciting others to go and do these terrible jobs?
That raises a slightly different point.
Travelling Showmen (Voting Facilities)
11.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department in view of the fact that many travelling showmen and their families are deprived of a vote at elections, if he will seek to allow them to register at their permanent home, as is done for men and women serving in Her Majesty's Services.
No, Sir. The existing law regarding registration appears to provide adequately for this type of case. The implementation of a recommendation on absent voting facilities made recently by the Conference on Electoral Law should in due course help to remove any diffi- culties that the wives of showmen may have experienced.
While thanking the right hon. Lady for that reply, may I ask her to consider circulating that information to the electoral officers, so that people may have the opportunity of knowing that they can have the facility in the future, because at present they have no understanding of it?
I have many friends among the Showmen's Guild of Great Britain. I have made inquiries, and I find that no difficulties have been brought to the notice of the General Council of the Showmen's Guild. If the hon. Lady has evidence of any difficulty, I would be pleased if she would let me know.
Greater London (Borough Elections)
14.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has received from the London Boroughs Committee about the timing of the borough elections in Greater London; and what reply he has made to them.
The Committee has recently informed me that 27 of the 32 London borough councils favour amending the London Government Act, 1963, to provide for elections to the Greater London Council and to the London Borough Councils to be held in different years; and that 20 of the councils wish the change to be effected by postponement of the London borough elections from 1967 to 1968. The Committee has been informed that its representations are being considered.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the suggestions of the London Boroughs Committee will be widely welcomed by electors in Greater London who found it confusing to have two sets of elections so close together, as we had in the first instance; that great administrative difficulty is created in the local authorities concerned; and that changes in the boroughs of Greater London which are at present being considered will not be completed in time for the 1967 borough elections?
I will certainly bear those points in mind, and I will consider sympathetically the representations that I have received. However, to make the change requires legislation, which confronts us with considerable difficulties from the point of view of time.
Reporting Of Committal Proceedings (Tucker Report)
15.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he intends to introduce legislation to implement the proposals of the Tucker Report on the Reporting of Committal Proceedings.
22.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the fact that the expressed view of the Tucker Report relating to proceedings before examining justices was that reporting before the trial has ended of nationally sensational cases was undesirable and impaired public confidence in the administration of justice, and of the concern that reporting of such proceedings continues, and as the report was accepted by Her Majesty's Government in January, 1965, when legislation to implement the report will be introduced.
I wish to give further consideration to the whole question of committal proceedings before introducing legislation on the reporting of them.
But in view of the decision of the magistrate in the Moors trial—
Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot now refer to any specific case, particularly one which is sub judice.
In view of recent decisions by magistrates not to exercise their discretion about the hearing of committal proceedings in camera, is it not extremely urgent that mandatory restrictions should now be imposed?
Yes, it is important to proceed on the matter with greater urgency than has been shown in the eight years which have gone by since the Tucker Report was published. But, equally, if it were considered that some change in the nature of committal proceedings were desirable—and the hon. Member for Runcorn (Mr. Carlisle) and Mr. Edward Gardner recently published a pamphlet on it which I have studied with interest—it would be important to determine the nature of committal proceedings before determining how they should be reported.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that his predecessor gave me a specific undertaking in the House in December, 1965, that the Tucker Report was intended to be implemented? Why has it now apparently been decided otherwise? Is it not desirable that there should be no yielding to pressure by the Press, who would dislike the ending of committal proceedings, particularly at a time when the public is concerned that the nauseating details of trials should not be repeated twice?
It is not a question of yielding to pressure. It is a question of whether it might be desirable to make a more far-reaching change.
Police Forces (Reorganisation)
16.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now take steps to reorganise police forces on a national basis.
No, Sir. But I intend to make a statement shortly outlining my proposals for the further amalgamation of police areas in the interests of greater efficiency.
While thanking the Home Secretary for that reply, in part, would he not agree that because of the appalling increase in crime, much of it committed by criminals organised on a national basis, the time is now ripe for the police forces to be organised on a national basis so that they can cope with these crimes adequately?
I am certainly aware that, because of the growth in organised crime, it is vitally important to organise police forces in the most efficient way possible to combat that crime. But one does not do that by grasping at a phrase, whether it be a national police force or something else, and I want to study the matter carefully.
Rather than considering ad hoc amalgamations of police forces, will my right hon. Friend give detailed consideration to the potential advantages in present-day conditions of multi-purpose regional authorities whose functions would include the provision and control of police forces?
It is a matter of great concern to me and to anyone responsible for the police to see what comes out of the Royal Commission on Local Government, but I do not want to have a standstill on police amalgamations during the two years or so for which that Commission must sit, and I propose to press ahead vigorously during this interim period.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he is likely to make his statement, and will he take into account the fact that many of us on this side of the House, and perhaps on the other side, too, attach great importance to a forward move in this direction?
I hope to make a statement within a matter of two or three weeks.
London Airport (Immigration Control Arrangements)
17.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will review the new arrangements for passport control at London Airport, which involve delays for holders of British passports returning to this country due to British and non-British subjects being grouped together.
18.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now stop the experimental reorganisation of immigration facilities at London Airport.
20.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that the new immigration arrangements at London Airport are causing delays of over an hour, are making the work of the Customs officers difficult, and will damage the tourist trade; and if he will take steps to remedy this situation.
The experiment at London Airport will finish as planned at midnight tonight when the previous immigration control arrangements will be resumed. A detailed evaluation of the results will then take place, with a view to deciding whether a modified form of the experiment could achieve non-segregation without causing delays.
In view of the fact that the new experiment which, mercifully, terminates tonight has proved a complete failure by causing much annoyance and delay to British subjects returning to this country, will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that nothing like the same kind of experiment will be reintroduced?
I do not think that an experiment along precisely these lines is likely to work satisfactorily. My hon. Friend must bear in mind, as I am sure he would wish to, that over the years there have been a good number of complaints about the practise of segregating aliens and British subjects at London Airport, and I was anxious to try the experiment to see whether we could escape from this. The experiment has been tried, but has led to difficulties, though I visited the airport twice and did not find long delays on either of those occasions. We will not cause undue delays, but if it is possible to do away with segregation, I am sure that this will in itself be a good thing.
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the number of immigration officers who speak a foreign language is strictly limited, and that the new arrangements have made it rather more difficult to deploy these multilingual immigation officers effectively?
I did not gather that the point mentioned by the hon. Gentleman was the main cause of the difficulties.
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that, to the average foreigner, immigration coming under the Home Office and Customs coming under the Treasury is not understandable, and that when they have been held up for ages after immigration they arrive absolutely furious at Customs, and it is there that the greatest amount of anger amongst Customs officials is to be found?
With respect, that seems to be a different question. I have already said that I would not propose to continue with an experiment which has led to undue delay, but I think it was right to try such an experiment, and I hope that we can reach a solution in the near future.
Commonwealth Immigration
19.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans he now has for amending the Government's policy on Commonwealth immigration laid down in the White Paper, Command Paper No. 2739.
My right hon. Friend is watching the situation closely but he has no major changes of policy in immediate contemplation.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether or not it is intended to revise the immigration quotas in the course of the coming Session, and can he also say whether it is intended to implement the Government's pledges on special help for those areas where there has been a particularly large influx of immigrants?
The answer to the second part of the hon. Gentleman's Question is "Yes". We will be making a statement quite shortly. In reply to the first part of it, it is too soon yet to evaluate the decisions taken last August in relation to the reduction in the number of vouchers. It is a question of preserving a delicate balance, and this is constantly under review.
30.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what was the net increase in Commonwealth immigration in the first three months of this year; and what proportion of such increase was due to immigration from Asia, Africa and the West Indies.
During the first three months of this year, the net inward balance of immigration from Commonwealth territories was 9,721; of these 5,795—or approximately 60 per cent.—were from Commonwealth territories other than Canada, Australia, New Zealand and those in the Mediterranean.
While this appears to show a decreased rate of intake over the previous year, would the Under-Secretary agree that, to the extent that it is an increase overall, it does slightly make more difficult his problem of integration, and will he keep a careful watch on the numbers?
In terms of numbers, it is too soon to say how effective the measures which were announced last year to deal with evasion are working out. Next week I hope to publish the figures relating to the total flow in 1965. We will then have a clearer idea of the position and will be able to ascertain how we shall preserve this balance in terms of dealing with the situation at home, of promoting integration, of satisfying our manpower needs and of being fair and just all round.
Is the Home Secretary aware that there is considerable feeling in the country that the present quota of immigrants is far too small and restrictive?
I am aware of the view expressed in certain quarters, but I am not sure that it reflects the majority view of the nation.
Seaside Resorts (Maintenance Of Public Order)
21.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he proposes to take to prevent hooligans ruining the trade of seaside resorts at Bank Holidays and other holiday periods; what has been achieved by the Malicious Damage Act, 1964; and how many new detention centres under that Act have been opened.
The maintenance of public order is the responsibility of the chief officer of police of the area.
In 1965, 155 people convicted of the summary offence of malicious damage were each fined more than £20, which before the Malicious Damage Act, 1964, was the maximum fine for this offence There are in all 18 detention centres; of these three have been brought into use since early 1964.I am sure that the right hon. Lady will remember that debate, in which she took part. Many times during the debate we discussed the Penal Reform Commission. We were not going to be able to do anything until it reported. Can the right hon. Lady say whether any steps are to be taken with regard to future possibilities for dealing with the hooligan business, which we were told must not be gone into until we had a report from the Royal Commission?
I do not remember the debate precisely in those terms, but we are doing everything that we can. I think that the police have done a very good job of work at the seaside resorts during the last year or so in dealing with this problem. The hon. Gentleman knows that the Malicious Damage Act did not set up detention centres, but reference was made during the discussions on that Act to the fact that we wanted more of them. Three have been opened since the beginning of 1964, and we are pressing ahead with more because we know that there is such a shortage.
Whilst congratulating the right hon. Lady on the fact that we have succeeded in opening three more detention centres, may I ask whether she would agree that detention centres are probably the most successful part of our penal institutions, and that there is still a need for more of them, particularly in the North-West?
I realise that magistrates would like to have more detention centres, because they find difficulty in sending to such centres all the young people whom they would wish to send there, and we are pressing ahead with this. This is not something which can be done within a short space of time. The centres have to be planned carefully, and they have to be built, but the hon. Gentleman can be assured that we are doing everything that we can to help.
Marriage (Residence Requirements)
23.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that the requirement that marriages are normally only to be solemnised in a building within the registry office district in which one of the parties has resided or, in the case of marriage by banns, in a church in the parish of which one of the parties resides, ca uses public inconvenience; whether he is aware that there is widespread evasion of these requirements; and whether, to avoid many marriages being celebrated consequent upon deceptions relating to residence requirements, he will introduce legislation to enable people to marry where they wish.
My right hon. Friend is aware that the residence requirements for marriage have been criticised on these grounds, and while he cannot make proposals for amending legislation at present, the Registrar-General will report on the matter as a result of the review of the law on the formalities connected with marriage which he has undertaken.
Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the fact that the existing laws were framed for an era when people were born, lived, and died, in the same parish? In view of the widespread distress among registrars throughout the country, will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that this inquiry to which she referred will be expedited so that these deceptions which are so widespread can cease?
I cannot give an assurance today as to when the report will be received, but we know that there is a difficulty here, and we should like to have the Registrar-General's report before coming to any decision.
Police Force (Recruitment)
24.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he is taking to speed up recruiting for the police force.
Recruitment over the country as a whole has substantially improved in the last year. There are serious shortages in certain undermanned areas, and particular attention is being paid to them in the national police recruitment campaign, which is being continued this year at a cost of £350,000. Special allowances have been introduced into the Metropolitan and City of London forces and are being negotiated for other forces with the greatest deficiencies.
Does not my right hon. Friend agree that this alarming increase in very daring crime in this country can be dealt with only by an adequate police force, and is he aware that in the Forces in Western Germany there are people who would gladly come home to help him?
I do not know about my hon. Friend's last point, but I am certainly aware of his first one, and we are doing what we can to deal with the deficiencies in the forces where the deficiencies are greatest, and I take some comfort from the fact that the position improved considerably during 1965.
When the right hon. Gentleman is making special allowances for the difficult areas like London, will he beware that he does not thereby suck in from places like Scotland police which we very much need there?
I am aware of that, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland would make me aware were I to begin to forget the point, but we must pay attention to the fact that the areas of greatest deficiency are the areas of greatest crime, and we therefore must concentrate on improving recruiting and stopping wastage in those areas.
Family Councils
26.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department to what extent it is Government policy that such cases as the Miles school cutlery case will in future be heard before family councils instead of before juvenile courts; and whether the Press are to be excluded and no reports upon such cases made public.
The proposals relating to family councils in the White Paper "The Child, the Family and the Young Offender" were published for the purposes of discussion and we are at present considering the many valuable comments received since the White Paper was published.
Under the White Paper proposals a child could not be committed to the care of a local authority without the parents' agreement, except by a family court composed of magistrates from which the Press would not be excluded.Would the hon. Lady agree that, but for the Press reports, probably neither she nor the Home Secretary—nor, for that matter, anyone else—would have been aware of the Miles case and the child would, therefore, have remained for much longer in the children's home? As Press reports are in many cases the only safeguard in matters of this kind, would she give a categoric undertaking that the Press will be allowed to attend these family councils just as they are able to attend children's courts?
I am aware of the interest which the hon. Gentleman took in this case and the work he did. As I understand it, in this case the matter got into the Press not through the Press being in the court but because the mother went to the Press and made a statement. Be that as it may, there is another point about this case. It is that if under the White Paper as it now stands such a case occurred, I would hope that it would be satisfactorily dealt with by the social workers and in an informal way, without the necessity of taking the child to court.
Children's Toys
25.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he will publish draft regulations under the Consumer Protection Act, 1961, dealing with children's toys; when he expects these regulations to become mandatory; and of how many children's deaths he is aware due to toys not complying with British Standard 3443 caused by toys made in the United Kingdom, and imported toys, respectively.
Draft Regulations dealing with the safety of children's toys will shortly be circulated to all interested bodies for comment. The Regulations will be made as soon as possible after comments have been received and considered. I am not aware of any children's deaths caused by toys not complying with British Standard 3443.
Will the right hon. Lady assure us that, because there is a risk of death to children as a result of toys not complying with the Standard, these conversations will proceed with the utmost dispatch?
Yes. I can give that assurance. There has been this delay because the Government are including not only the three requirements of the Molony Committee but also poisonous substances in paint, which we thought should be included. As the hon. Gentleman will realise, this has presented great technical difficulties, which have now been overcome.
Abortion Law
27.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce legislation for the reform of abortion law in this Session.
I am afraid that I cannot hold out hope of Government legislation on this subject.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that that reply will be received with disappointment by the majority of people in this country who want to see this unfair and unenforceable law—a law which is being broken several hundred times each week—reformed? Will he therefore agree to look again very seriously and earnestly at this problem? I know that he is with us on this issue. Is he aware that we are very anxious that the necessary legislation should be introduced?
I do not dissent from some of my hon. Friend's remarks about the state of the law, but I think that this is eminently a subject for private Members' action.
There is no private Members' time now.
There is time.
The Government have pinched the lot.
We have not pinched the lot. There will be some time, and I hope very much that an hon. Gentleman who secures a favourable place in the Ballot will take the initiative in this matter.
Since the Home Secretary is sympathetic to the idea of reforming the law on abortion, will he have conversations with his right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to see if some time could be given in the mornings for a Private Member's Bill on this subject?
The position about private Member's time was discussed last night.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is growing support in the House as well as in the country for the reform of this law? Will he give an assurance that if, in the event of a private Member being successful in the Ballot and suggesting a Measure of this kind, he goes to the Home Department for advice and facilities for the drafting of such a Bill, he will receive such assistance?
Without question, if an hon. Member who secured a place in the Ballot wished advice and assistance on this matter, such drafting assistance would be available.
Will not the Home Secretary in any circumstances at all say why he will not take the initiative in this matter and place a Measure before Parliament on this issue? Would he not agree that there is widespread alarm in the medical profession about the confusion of the law? While reform is necessary, will the right hon. Gentleman at the same time consider the clarification of the present law whereby perhaps nothing more than codification might be needed? Why will he not deal with the matter?
The hon. Gentleman has suggested dealing with the matter in a great number of ways in one question. I have already given the reasons why I think this is an appropriate subject for private Members' action.
Abortifacient Drugs
28.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will take steps, by legislation or otherwise, to prevent the sale of abortifacient drugs.
It would not be practicable to prohibit the sale of many of the stubstances taken in the belief that they will terminate pregnancy since they are in common use for other purposes. I am, however, keeping this matter under review and will be ready to consider the introduction of new restrictions on any particular drug shown to be harmful.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that as a result of the Birmingham Report by the Abortion Law Reform Association of that area, 14,000 pharmacists in this country have been advised not to sell these drugs, which are expensive, ineffective for the purpose and positively dangerous? Does he not think that their manufacture should be banned and does he not agree that the only way to solve this problem is to reform the law, as has been suggested; that this is the only way to get rid of the manufacture and sale of these dangerous drugs?
Without commenting further on my hon. Friend's reversion to her previous Question, I will, on the other point she raised, discuss the matter with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health. As I indicated in my Answer, I am not at all opposed to the banning of a particular drug where it is shown to be a specific cause of danger and difficulty.
Dartmoor Prison
29.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proposals he has for the future use of Dartmoor Prison; and if he will make a statement.
The prison must continue in use for the present, but my right hon. Friend's intention is to close it when more accommodation becomes available elsewhere. In accordance with an undertaking given in 1962, my right hon. Friend will give at least three years' notice before transfer of the prisoners begins.
Will the right hon. Lady assure the House that adequate steps will be taken in the area to replace the form of employment which the prison now represents?
I could not give that assurance because it would be quite outside the scope of my right hon. Friend's Department. Obviously, the people who have most of the employment are the prison officers, and they will, of course, be employed in other prisons.
Immigration Appeals (Committee's Report)
31.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has yet received the report of the committee appointed last November to consider further the problem of immigration; and when he proposes to introduce legislation following that report.
The Departmental Committee on Immigration Appeals, announced by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister last November, was appointed on 23rd February last. My right hon. Friend does not expect to have the Committee's report for several months; and he cannot anticipate it.
Bearing in mind that the Government appear to stand by the principles enunciated in their White Paper last August, should not there be some degree of expedition about getting this Committee's work completed and legislation introduced?
The Committee, as I said, has started its work. It has had meetings already, it has visited the ports of entry and it is taking evidence. We cannot anticipate its findings. We are waiting for them and then we will proceed accordingly.
Polling Stations (Explanatory Notice To Electors)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will alter the occupations and addresses of the candidates shown in the explanatory notice to electors at polling stations in order to make them more representative both of candidates and the electorate.
My right hon. Friend will consider this suggestion.
I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer, but would she not agree that the three specimen candidates chosen—a Bristol merchant, a Surrey auctioneer and a Wiltshire esquire—are hardly representative of either the candidates or the electors? Could she bring in candidates from the North and the Midlands, perhaps women candidates, and from other occupations—perhaps a lady teacher from Yorkshire?
I agree with everything my hon. Friend has said. I think that these are a little out of date, which is why we will look at them.
Murder Cases (Press Reporting)
33.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce legislation on the lines of that on divorce proceedings forbidding the reporting in the Press of the details of murder cases.
There are formidable objections to this proposal, but I am aware of the public concern and will give the matter further consideration.
While everyone wants to ensure that justice is seen to be done, and that ultimately full records are available, would the Home Secretary bear in mind that there is unlikely to be any benefit to society as a whole for sordid details of perversion to be available in the daily Press at breakfast time for all the family?
I do bear this in mind and the matter causes me concern, as I know it does the hon. Member, but I should not like to underestimate the formidable objections to a restriction on the reporting of criminal proceedings.
Would the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that divorce proceedings are primarily a matter between civil litigants, whereas the public have always a real interest in criminal trials?
I do bear in mind that there is not an exact similarity between the two kinds of case.
Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that some of the Press reports of the trial at present proceeding in Chester—
Order. The hon. Gentleman must not refer to a trial which is at present proceeding.
Aden
British Personnel (Incidents)
34.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many incidents involving injury or loss of life to British personnel have taken place in Aden or the Federation in the past 12 months.
In the 12-months' period ending on 26th April there were 60 incidents in Aden and 34 elsewhere in the Federation involving injury or loss of life to British personnel.
Is not this the direct and foreseeable result of announcing our departure from Aden two years in advance? Has not that decision dismayed our friends and encouraged our enemies to violence? If we are to leave Aden, is it not better done as speedily as possible?
No, Sir. It is mainly due to a recent intensification of U.A.R. support for terrorism, which is being organised and directed by the Egyptian intelligence service from the Yemen.
Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that there has also been a very large number of murders and other outrages of loyal Arab civilians? As long as Aden remains a Colony, is not the obligation on the right hon. Gentleman to maintain law and order in a British territory? What is he doing to ensure that this is done more effectively?
We accept that we have these responsibilities. In addition to the measures which were described in the House by my right hon. Friend the then Colonial Secretary on 18th November last, in view of the increase in terrorist incidents following the lull in January and February, special escort and other protective arrangements have been introduced for otherwise vulnerable persons who have to enter very sensitive areas.
Bechuanaland
Mr Michael Dingake
35.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what information has been received from the Bechuanaland Police about Mr. Michael Dingake, a British citizen from Bechuanaland; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Dingake left Bechuanaland by train for Zambia on 7th December, 1965. He was arrested in Rhodesia on 8th December last and subsequently deported to South Africa. His whereabouts were unknown for some time and the British Embassy in Cape Town made inquiries of the South African Government early in February. Mr. Dingake was, I understand, taken to court in Johannesburg on the 4th April and later transferred to Pretoria for trial in the Supreme Court on 26th April.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has received a report of the initial stages of the trial, at which Mr. Dingake was legally represented and at which a British vice-consul was present. The proceedings were adjourned—On a point of order. Is this right? On a previous occasion, Sir, you pulled me up after 51 words and promised at the same time to castigate Ministers who were verbose.
I would advise the hon. Gentleman, if he wants to raise a point of order, to do it at the end of Question Time. I will deal with his point later.
The proceedings were adjourned and my right hon. Friend is arranging to receive reports of their resumption.
Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this is a matter of individual liberty with which the whole House will be concerned? Is it not monstrous that this British protected citizen was deported by the illegal régime in Rhodesia to South Africa—not to his own territory—and will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that his right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary makes an adequate protest to the South African Government?
I notice that the hon. Gentleman has a Question on this subject to my right hon. Friend. We had better await his reply.
Governor Of Rhodesia
Q1.
asked the Prime Minister what steps are being taken to safeguard and strengthen the position of the Governor of Rhodesia.
We have throughout been in communication with him and have always given him our full support. The House will have appreciated from my statement yesterday the important part which the Governor played in the events of the last few days.
Does my right hon. Friend recognise that the Governor must have been under considerable strain since last November? Will he now state that he will provide him with adequate staff and secretariat and adequate transport, even supposing that the Governor has probably been too modest to ask for it himself?
The Governor has certainly be under very great stress and the House will recognise what he has achieved and what he has done. However, the question of any facilities—perhaps the situation may now improve in the light of the events of the last few days—is really a matter for the Governor. It would not be right for us to offer him facilities on the lines suggested by my hon. Friend.
Zambia (Support Cost)
Q2.
asked the Prime Minister what has been the cost of Zambian support in all its manifestations, including increased cost of copper, to the United Kingdom since 11th November. 1965; and if he will invite the Zambian Government to contribute 50 per cent. of the cost.
About £3½ millions for the airlift and the Royal Air Force Javelin force and a further £3½ millions for the development of alternative supply routes into Zambia.
The price paid for Zambian copper is not part of British aid to Zambia but reflects world supply and demand conditions. The Answer to the second part of the Question is "No, Sir".Yes, Sir, but is not the position now that the Zambian Government are making a large profit out of British aid by the arbitrary raising of their copper price? Will not the right hon. Gentleman reconsider this?
There is no question of making a profit out of British aid. We have an interest in maintaining copper supplies, which is one reason that we have helped with the supply of oil. But the high copper price in the world today is the result of a general world shortage. aggravated by very prolonged strikes, first in Australia, then in Chile and then in Zambia. It is nothing at all to do with the Rhodesians.
Would not my right hon. Friend agree that one result of the Rhodesian companies' new copper policy is that the three months' free market price of copper has dropped by nearly £150 in the last few days?
I think that my hon. Friend meant the Zambian companies and not the Rhodesian companies. There has always been the problem of whether to keep the low and reasonably stable price or to follow the market price through the L.M.E. Certainly, the immediate effect of last weekend's price decisions has had the effect which my hon. Friend has said.
Will not the Zambian Government be very grateful to Her Majesty's Government if they succeed in reaching an amicable solution with the Government in Salisbury?
I should have thought that everyone will be pleased if a solution is reached which gives full effect to the principles laid down in this House and which most hon. Members would insist on as being reasonable.
Commonwealth Ministers Of Trade (Conference)
Q3.
asked the Prime Minister what progress has been made in arranging the Commonwealth Conference of Ministers of Trade this year; and whether he will make a statement.
A meeting of Commonwealth trade officials will begin in London on the 9th of May to carry forward preparations for the agenda and to suggest a date for the Ministerial Conference which, I hope, will take place later in the summer.
I am very much obliged to my right hon. Friend for that information. Could he tell the House, in view of the Government's intention to probe the possibility of our entry into the Common Market, whether this will be on the agenda?
I think it would always be a matter at any Commonwealth Trade Ministers' Conference to inform our Commonwealth colleagues of any development in British trading policy in any direction. The main purpose of this particular trade conference is to advance our trading relations within the Commonwealth.
While we welcome the continuation of Commonwealth Conferences, could the Prime Minister say whether it will be his intention, or the intention of the President of the Board of Trade, to pursue proposals put forward in 1964 for guaranteed markets for Commonwealth primary products? If that is the case, how would he reconcile it with a proposal to enter the European Economic Community?
The right hon. Gentleman is a great authority on, I think it was called, Article 234 of the Common Market. We shall certainly pursue every question of integrating our trade with the Commonwealth on the basis of studying one another's needs. I was not aware that it was the view of the right hon. Gentleman that we should end long-term arrangements we have with the Commonwealth in the matter of trade.
Will the Prime Minister say whether, in view of the growth of regional preference in the pattern of trade in the world today, the restrictive provisions of the G.A.T.T. in relation to Commonwealth Preference will figure on the agenda of this conference for discussion?
The position of the G.A.T.T. in regard to "no new preferences" has been long established. There was a time when I hoped that it could be renegotiated as a process of making the G.A.T.T. permanent, but those years are long past. Certainly we have and enjoy Commonwealth Preferences and of course they would be very much one of the issues involved, as the right hon. and learned Member remembers, in any negotiations with the E.E.C.
Dr Erhard (Visit)
Q4.
asked the Prime Minister whether, on the occasion of Dr. Erhard's visit to London, he will seek to discuss Her Majesty's Government's policy on the reunification of Germany on the basis of the fact that reunification is possible only within existing frontiers and a zone free of nuclear weapons, foreign forces and military alliances.
My forthcoming discussions with Chancellor Erhard will be confidential and I cannot anticipate what subjects will be discussed.
I fully appreciate this point, but could not my right hon. Friend confirm that the policy of disengagement which is summarised in this Question remains the policy of Her Majesty's Government and is in fact the only basis on which it would be possible to reach agreement with the Soviet Union on the reunification of Germany?
My hon. Friend has his own views about what exactly would be the basis for negotiations with the Soviet Union. I have always said, and I think the House would agree, that the reunification of Germany, which we all support, is dependent on the establishment of a détente and improved relations with the Soviet Union. Exactly what is implied in getting a détente I should not like to forecast. I do not believe in entering into negotiations by saying what you have to give away before you start the talks.
In the light of the failure to make a general advance in disarmament, is not the demand of Germany for a greater share in nuclear strategy likely to increase? In his discussions with Dr. Erhard, will the Prime Minister advance the Atlantic Nuclear Force or the American proposal for consultation envisaged by Mr. McNamara's Committee?
I should have thought this discussion is bound to involve discussions about nuclear problems within N.A.T.O. We ourselves have given full support to American proposals for consultation on the lines of the McNamara Committee.
Ussr And Eastern Europe
Q5.
asked the Prime Minister to what extent, in view of the French Foreign Minister's visit to London and President de Gaulle's visit to Moscow, it is Her Majesty's Government's policy to seek economic and political co-operation with the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, and not to let military commitments to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation interfere with the pursuit of policies for settling outstanding issues and organising peace throughout the whole of Europe.
The Government will continue to seek to improve relations with the Soviet Union and the countries of Eastern Europe. A major purpose of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation is to provide the necessary basis from which this improvement may be achieved and from which, together with our allies, we may work for a stable settlement in Europe.
Has not the experience of the last 18 months demonstrated that my right hon. Friend was quite right in 1963 in predicting that any attempt to give Western Germany any share in responsibility for nuclear decisions would put an end to any possibility of an agreement with the Soviet Union? Will he not, therefore, stop flirting with this ill-starred idea?
I am not flirting with anything. The position, as I stated in 1963, in 1964, in 1965 and in 1966, is that we are opposed to any German finger on the nuclear trigger or to any new finger on the nuclear trigger which is not there already. We have never been opposed to consultation within N.A.T.O. but we are opposed to giving anyone else who has not got it today the basis for starting a nuclear explosion. On this we have always been consistent and we stand on that position.
A Tory answer.
It was voted against by the Tories in 1963.
Rhodesia
Q6.
asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the operation, to the latest convenient date, of sanctions against the illegal government in Rhodesia; and what further steps he plans to take.
I would refer my hon. and learned Friend to the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations in the course of yesterday's debate.
Has not the Prime Minister sent Mr. Wright to Rhodesia since that speech was made? May I congratulate the Prime Minister on his constructive initiative in sending Mr. Wright there? Has he any report to make on Mr. Wright's visit?
Although I thank my hon. and learned Friend for what he said, it is not true that Mr. Wright has visited Salisbury since the speech of my right hon. Friend in the course of yesterday's debate; he has in fact returned from Rhodesia since then and he has not gone again.
Q8.
asked the Prime Minister what recent direct or indirect communications he has had with Mr. Smith.
I would refer the hon. Member to the statement I made in the House yesterday.
While congratulating the Prime Minister on the result of latest exchanges with Salisbury, may I ask if he can say what new factors have suddenly emerged to make agreement to talk possible? Can he say where it is proposed that the talks should take place?
I said yesterday that I did not think the talks would be helped if I went into too much detail about where and how we would hold the talks. In the last few weeks there has been evidence that talks were possible. That was not possible in March, in February, or in January, when I asked the Secretary of State to go to Salisbury and he was refused admission except on terms which none of us could accept.
On the second part of the question, it would be helpful if at this stage I did not refer to where talks and negotiations are to take place. They should be away from the glare of publicity. I am not sure that television cameras would help in this connection.Railwaymen's Pay
Q7.
asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the official meeting, over which he presided in mid-March, concerning the structure of railwaymen's pay.
I would refer the hon. Member to the statement issued from 10 Downing Street after the meeting, a copy of which is in the Library.
Would the Prime Minister say whether the main discussions, as opposed to discussions about the agenda, have yet started on the problems which gave rise to the strike, and whether these will include the question of liner trains?
In the meeting I held—which is the subject of the Ques- tion—we dealt with the whole issue of how talks could be organised about relating pay to productivity, and productivity to pay. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour is following this up and is already in close consultation with the parties concerned. On the question of liner trains and other matters affecting productivity, my right hon. Friend has also had meetings and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport has had talks with the unions concerned.
Can the Prime Minister tell us whether the talks now to take place on structure are to be on the basis of earnings, as recommended by the Prices and Incomes Board, or on the old Guillebaud formula of actual pay rates?
The talks are without commitment. They are to look at the whole question, not merely methods of wage fixation and the relation of wages to productivity but also—if they can extend this far, as I hope—the question of relating pay settlements to future productivity. Whether this will be on an earnings basis or a wage rate basis, is one of the questions to be discussed.
Building Industry (Ministerial Responsibility)
Q9.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied with the machinery which exists to coordinate the policies of the Minister of Public Building and Works and the Minister of Housing and Local Government as regards their respective responsibilities to the building industry; and if he will make a statement.
I would ask the hon. Member to await a statement which I hope to make very shortly about the respective responsibilities of my right hon. Friends the Minister of Housing and Local Government and the Minister of Public Building and Works.
I am very glad to hear that, because the Prime Minister will appreciate that we have a run-down in house building and a glut of bricks. Is it not time that we saw some answer to the pledge which was given in the 1964 election to tackle house building like a military operation?
The hon. Member can look forward to the statement I shall be making shortly. At present the problem is the long period in finishing a lot of houses started earlier—
Under a Tory Government.
They do not go back that far—particularly in the field of private enterprise building. It is quite clear that there is very heavy sales resistance developing to some of these private enterprise houses. There is no problem in regard to building society funds as has been alleged.
In preparing his statement, will the Prime Minister bear in mind the growing concern that in the last 18 months all that has occurred in this field has been a blurring of responsibilities, a proliferation of Ministers, and a growth in the number of civil servants? Will he have regard to his own exhortations at Aberdeen on 22nd April and bring about some economies in the use of manpower?
One of the big difficulties I am having in trying to set the demarcation is the rather illogical solution that was developed by the previous Government as the result of the empire-building characteristics of the right hon. Gentleman.
Is the Prime Minister aware that there is real anxiety in the brick-making industry about the way in which Government planning has worked over the last 18 months? Will he do his best to alter and improve the present situation as soon as possible?
There has been a continuing problem over many years of linking building operations to building material supply. There was a chronic shortage of building materials only 18 months ago which was inhibiting the fulfilment of the housing programme. One of the main operative factors here is the sheer impossibility of honouring any housing target unless we hold back some of the competitive building operations which are drawing off labour at this time. The big problem is the supply of labour and to some extent what I refer to as the sales resistance on the part of new owner-occupiers to the very high prices which are being charged for finished houses.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the brick-making industry in my constituency the companies are advertising for people to work overtime? Is he further aware that the real problem of moving the bricks from the brickyards is lack of transport and lack of labour?
All this proves is that there is a very difficult series of problems to solve. They are not new problems. We are doing our best to get the Departmental responsibilities on the right lines.
While the Prime Minister is considering the responsibilities of these two Ministers, will he also consider the possibility of abolishing the Ministry of Land and Natural Resources?
The position is that I announced some time ago that we were transferring to Housing the main functions of the Ministry of Works which relate to housing and also the Ministry of Land and Natural Resources. It would have been illogical to do that without doing the works operation. We are still concerned with the exact demarcation within the Ministry of Works field. Land is now being integrated with the Ministry of Housing, but we should require legislation to settle the position of the individual Ministries.
Questions To Ministers
I will deal now with the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro), of which I am already seized.
It may be of benefit to new hon. Members and returned hon. Members if I just emphasise what the position is. The Chair is under the instruction of the House to try to get more productivity out of Question Time. This is not so much a question of cutting down the number of Questions as of getting right hon. and hon. Members to make their supplementary questions and answers brief. In the case which the right hon. Member for Worcestershire, South—
Honourable, not right honourable.
Shame. Exhibitionist.
Order. In the case which the hon. Gentleman raised, this was a matter affecting a human being and I can understand why the Secretary of State should answer in detail when dealing with a problem of life and liberty.
However, that is the kind of Question, I think, that a Minister, if he finds that he has to answer at length, might put at the end of Question Time. The only other thing I would say to the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South is that he will find that the Chair treats every hon. Member alike and that he will get neither more nor less favour, mercy or justice than anybody else.I accept your rebuke, Sir, that I have been missing for 18 months. The point of order I raised with you, Sir, was not precisely the point to which you replied, with deep respect. You castigated me last week for a supplementary of far less than average length. In HANSARD it was 51 words. You exonerated the right hon. Gentleman for 251 words. Is that reasonable, Sir?
This is what the hon. Gentleman must learn to understand. I answered exactly, in the Ruling which I gave just now, the point which the hon. Gentleman raised subsequent to my Ruling. When he reads what I said in HANSARD, perhaps he will understand the position of the Chair.
May I say that I did not rebuke the hon. Gentleman for being absent from the House, which I know was through illness. I simply referred to the fact that he had been absent from the House.Further to that point of order. I find it interesting that the Chair suggested that the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) should be taken at the end of Questions. This seems to be a new procedure. What exactly is the basis for it, Sir? If a point of order is in relation to the length of an Answer, it will mean that the long reply will still have to go on and an hon. Member can do nothing by using the procedures of the House to draw Mr. Speaker's attention to it. Is this a new rule?
There is no ruling about it. I suggest to the House that if a very serious point of order arises at Question Time, obviously it must be raised then. However, most of the points of order raised at Question Time, especially this one, could be dealt with at the end of Question Time without taking up valuable Question Time.
Business Of The House
May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business of the House for next week?
Yes, Sir, the Business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 2ND MAY—Second Reading of the Building Control Bill. At seven o'clock, as the House is aware, the Chairman of Ways and Means has set down opposed Private Business. TUESDAY, 3RD MAY—The Chancellor of the Exchequer will open his Budget. The general debate on the Budget Resolutions and the Economic Situation will be continued on Wednesday and Thursday, and brought to a conclusion on Monday 9th May. At the end of business on Wednesday, 4th May, remaining stages of the Guyana Independence Bill. FRIDAY, 6TH MAY—The proposed Business will be: Second Reading of the Agriculture Bill.Can my right hon. Friend tell the House when the House will have the opportunity of debating the last Report of the Select Committee on Procedure?
There will be opportunities to debate the last Report of the Select Committee on Procedure on Supply and other procedural matters, I hope, within the not too distant future.
Could the right hon. Gentleman give a date when the House could debate the Motion standing in my name, which, in fact, relates to Question No. 11, which I tabled to the Prime Minister today, but which, unfortunately, was not reached?
[That, in the opinion of this House, in order to protect the rights of back-benchers an independent judicial parliamentary Ombudsman for Members of Parliament should be appointed to which disputes on fact between back-benchers and Ministers could be referred; and that an initial case which would merit such a reference would be the rejection by the Foreign Secretary of the substantiated evidence given by him by the honourable Members for Tynemouth on the action taken by the right honourable Harold Macmillan to appoint and finance an official historian to write an objective history of the work of the Special Operations Executive.]I have looked at the Motion and made some researches. There is no doubt about it that the hon. Lady is quite capable of looking after herself without the activities of an ombudsman.
The question of the publication of the book to which she refers has been under consideration by Government Departments under successive Governments for about 19 years and I do not think that a debate would be particularly profitable.On a point of order. Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment. Am I allowed to do that, Sir?
We are all for modernising Parliament, but this is an innovation which the House has not accepted yet.
I do not quite understand your Ruling, Sir.
The hon. Lady is not in order in seeking to give notice of her intention to raise a matter on the Adjournment.