House Of Commons
Monday, 13th June, 1966
The House—after the Adjournment on 27th May for the Whitsun Recess—met at half-past Two o'clock.
Prayers
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Oral Answers To Questions
Land And Naturalresources
Land Commission Bill(Betterment Levy)
1.
asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what is his estimate of the net yield of the betterment levy on the transactions in law of the kind set out in Cases A to E of the Land Commission Bill.
2.
asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources whether he will now make a statement setting out his calculations as to the expected net yield in a full year of the levy proposed in last Session's Land Commission Bill.
I estimate the gross yield of the betterment levy at 40 per cent. in a full year to be about £80 million. The levy will affect the amount which would otherwise be collected under existing taxes, but information is not available upon which to base an estimate of its extent because these taxes are assessed on quite a different basis and are subject to different exemptions.
Is it not extraordinary that the Minister should seek to levy a tax when he has no idea at all of its net yield? Is the position that he does not know—in which case will he undertake to give the Committee some indication of the position—or is it simply that he dare not say what the yield will be because it might be thought to be derisory in comparison with the complexities of collecting it?
I can allay the right hon. and learned Gentleman's anxieties. The net yield will be substantial. That is quite clear. But we cannot go further than this and make a detailed estimate for the reasons that I have given.
If the right hon. Gentleman cannot give the House even an approximate figure of the net yield, how does he know that it is substantial enough to justify the very high cost of collecting it?
I have said that it is substantial—one can reach that conclusion—but one cannot go further and particularise because of the different bases of Corporation Tax and Capital Gains Tax and the different exemptions.
Reservoirs (Farm Land)
4.
asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources if he will take steps, by legislation or otherwise, to prevent more farm land from being flooded to make reservoirs for public water supply.
No, Sir. Other means of storing water will be investigated wherever they exist, but unavoidably some farm land will have to be taken for reservoirs. Wherever possible the less good farm land will be used in preference to the better.
Will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour, wherever possible, to adopt the large-scale and modern solution to this problem, rather than the old-fashioned solution which involves nibbling away at ever-increasing quantities of good agricultural land?
As the right hon. and learned Gentleman will appreciate, we are vigorously examining the possibilities of large-scale water supply. This is a long-term policy, but meanwhile, unavoidably, we shall have to depend upon some water being supplied from reservoirs.
Millington Pastures, Pocklington
5.
asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what correspondence he has received from the Ramblers Association, Yorkshire, East Riding Area, about the ploughing up of Millington Pastures, common land near Pocklington, and the protest ramble of this organisation in November, 1965; and what action he has taken.
The Department has not been approached. Two years the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in the previous administration, who was then responsible for commons, declined a request from the local Ramblers Association to intervene because, as my hon. Friend will realise, the Minister has no power to settle disputes. However, if the status of the land is in question, those interested should apply—in due course—for the land to be registered under the Commons Registration Act, 1965.
That appears to be a helpful Answer. Can the hon. Gentleman tell me what person or persons can take action in this matter?
Any person can apply to the local registration authorities for the status of the common to be determined. Such a person does not have to have a legal interest in the land.
Ordnance Survey (Establishment)
6.
asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources why another committee is being set up to consider changes in the establishment of the Ordnance Survey; and if he will make a statement.
The interdepartmental committee which reported last year examined which posts could be filled by civilians. The present body is working out the best ways of recruitment, arrangements for training and career structures.
Is it not a fact that this will be the fourth committee which has investigated this problem? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a certain officer of a professional association has said that the general position is now absurd?
I am not aware of the last part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. I suppose that it is true that if one takes the period since the last war, may be even an earlier period, there have been more than the two Committees referred to. But there are only two Committees dealing with this, and their objective is to get as many civilians as possible into the service in the best and most appropriate way.
Leasehold Enfranchisement
7.
asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what is the reason for the upper limit of rateable value of £200 for houses outside the London area qualifying for leasehold enfranchisement under the proposals in the White Paper on Leasehold Reform.
It seems appropriate that this legislation, one of the main purposes of which is to improve the security of tenure of leaseholders, should apply to the same class of property as do the Rent Acts.
Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there are certain areas in the country, including my own constituency of Oxford, where a very large proportion—in some cases about half—of the leaseholders are excluded from the privileges of enfranchisement by the present regulations, and that it is very difficult to explain to those people why it is just for one class of leaseholder to be enfranchised and not just for another class?
Overall, rather less than 1 per cent. would appear to be excluded outside London. I will certainly look at cases such as those my hon. Friend has mentioned.
9.
asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources when he will introduce the Bill to implement the proposals of the White Paper on leasehold enfranchisement.
During the present Session.
While thanking my right hon. Friend for that brief Answer—it was very much to the point—may I press on him the urgency of this legislation—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question."] May I ask my right hon. Friend to bear in mind that there is a great deal of urgency in this matter, remembering that, as in the case of my constituency, both the folk concerned and many of the leases concerned are moving towards the end of their span? Would he see that the formula decided on to settle the purchase price—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."]I—am nearly there—of the freehold should be as low as possible, realising, as he must do—
Order. The hon. Gentleman must get there more quickly.
As my hon. Friend is aware, we have taken steps to protect leaseholders whose leases expire before the Bill becomes law. I am well aware of the urgent need for this Bill. My hon. Friend will be comforted to know that we are making good progress.
While protecting the leaseholders, would the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what will happen in the case of the Oxford and Cambridge colleges? If they lose a great deal of revenue, will the Government find an alternative source of income for them?
We have considered the position of the Oxford and Cambridge colleges. We are quite sure that the steps which we are taking are fair to both parties.
What is the Minister doing about the situation which is arising particularly in London where the announcement of the Government's policy has simply resulted in putting up the prices of leaseholds?
That is not the case at all. Our experience is to the contrary.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that some landlords are asking exorbitant sums of money for initial repairs before agreeing to statutory tenancies being given to tenants whose leases have fallen in since 8th December, 1964? Is he further aware that these tenants will be unable to take advantage of the Leasehold Reform Bill unless quick action is taken?
My hon. Friend should call the attention of his constituents to the provisions of the 1954 Act and to the assurance given, to which I have already referred.
Council On Tribunals(Land Commission Bill)
8.
asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what views were expressed to him by the Council on Tribunals relative to Clause 8 and the Second Schedule of the Land Commission Bill now before Parliament.
None, Sir.
Did the right hon. Gentleman consult the Council? If so, did it give him any advice?
The Council, on its own initiative, asked for some information which we gave it.
Public Building Andworks
Industrial Civil Servants (Road Haulage Workers)
10.
asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what plans he has to apply common rates and conditions to road haulage workers employed as industrial civil servants irrespective of their employment before 1963 with service works organisations.
Discussions with the unions on rationalisation will be resumed after the report of the Prices and Incomes Board is received.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this anomaly causes very considerable irritation to those involved? Can he give an undertaking that the Government will take very speedy action when the Report of the Prices and Incomes Board is received?
Until depots were integrated there was only irritation, and it was not particularly serious. But I give an undertaking that once the Report has been received negotiations will be resumed.
Hyde Park (May Day Meetings)
12.
asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will reconsider the granting of future permission for the holding of May Day meetings in Hyde Park, in view of the public nuisance and disturbance created.
No, Sir. It is not the Government's policy to trample on democratic traditions.
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that this year hundreds of people trying to rest and relax had their afternoons completely ruined by the amplified inanities booming across Hyde Park? Why cannot these May Day meetings be confined to the area of Speakers' Corner or the people concerned asked to manage without their extremely powerful loudspeaker equipment?
It has been a tradition for a very long time for May Day rallies to take place in Hyde Park. Although I can understand hon. Members opposite getting worried about the popularity of Left-wing ideas these days, I should not have thought that they would propose these methods for suppressing them.
Does my right hon. Friend realise that the Opposition are worried not about the May Day meetings but because the views expressed are anathema to them?
Yes. It is always open to them to try to organise May Day meetings of their own.
While successive Governments have allowed these meetings freedom of speech, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will address himself to the point about the use of amplifiers? That is what causes so much complaint.
I think that amplifiers are necessary and usual at meetings of this sort. If what was said was too loud and carried too far, I should like to have details of it, because it might well be suggested, reasonably, to those concerned, whoever they might be, that they have the meeting elsewhere.
Did any Ministers of the present Government take part in any of these May Day meetings?
I would need notice of that question. I believe so. Certainly I have had the pleasure of taking part in them in the hon. Member's constituency.
Middlesex Guildhall
13.
asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what approach he has made to the Greater London Authority for the transfer of the Middlesex Guildhall to the control of his Department.
Exploratory discussions have taken place at official level.
May we have an assurance that finality will be reached in this matter before next May Day? When is it likely to be?
I cannot give a date. I have said that the discussions are exploratory, and they may take a little time.
Building Materials (Prices)
14.
asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will enumerate those building materials included in the early warning system; and if he will refer to the National Board for Prices and Incomes the rising prices in this sphere.
Bricks, cement, sand and gravel, flat glass and plasterboard are included in the early warning system. I do not consider any reference to the Board necessary at present. I shall consider any proposed price increases as they are notified to me.
Can my right hon. Friend say on what basis these commodities were chosen for reference to the Board? Does he recall the information from Fife County Council which I sent to him indicating that electrical wiring cables, which are not in the list he has given, have gone up by rather more than 50 per cent. in the last year? Does not he think that that is a case for reference to the Board?
The commodities were chosen in relation to construction, as they were in relation to other industries, because of their strategic importance and because these were commodities over which there is domestic control and in which imports do not play a large part. A number of items listed by my hon. Friend when he wrote to us were items in which the price of imported raw materials played a very large part indeed.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider referring to the 13oard the effect of the Selective Employment Tax on the cost of construction?
No.
Bury St Edmunds Abbey
15.
asked the Minister of Public Building and Works ',why he is proposing to demolish the houses built into the west front of Bury St. Edmunds Abbey; and on whose advice he judges the merits of these houses.
To show the abbey to the best advantage. On expert advice.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is very strong feeling in Bury St. Edmunds about this proposal? Does he realise that those who live in these houses do not accept the Ministry's description of them as being ugly and lacking in facilities? So long as there is a housing shortage, will not he realise that it is better to leave people where they are in their homes and not knock their houses down in order to show off the ruins around them?
The aesthetics are a matter of opinion. The buildings are owned by the borough council. We have asked that the council should mitigate any hardship in taking the buildings down. But no representations have been made to us that there is an outcry.
Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to specify the expert advice, because in my view experts give opinions both ways?
The Inspectorate of Ancient Monuments in my Ministry is very well esteemed internationally. It is the Inspectorate's opinion which we have sought in this matter.
Ministry Of Health
Artificial Kidney Machines
16.
asked the Minister of Health how many artificial kidney machines are available within the National Health Service; and what is the price per machine.
There are at present about 100 patients suffering from chronic renal failure being treated on kidney machines. There will be a substantial increase in facilities for this form of treatment in the next twelve months. Adequate facilities already exist for treating acute renal failure. The cost of machines and their associated equipment varies from about £2,000 to about £3,500 according to type.
But has the Minister's attention been called to a B.B.C. programme in which it was said that over 2,000 people died every year through the absence of these machines? Would not the resources of the National Health Service be better employed on providing machines to keep people alive rather than providing for the abolition of prescription charges in order that people can get aspirins without paying for them?
Ignoring the last part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question—because I think that this is a very serious matter—may I tell him that there is no reliable means of assessing how many patients might benefit from intermittent dialysis. The limiting factors in the development of the facility are the provision of accommodation for trained staff and equipment, although at the moment we have sufficient equipment to meet all orders from hospitals. Development is not at present limited by shortage of money.
When bringing in these new machines, which we are all very pleased to hear about, will my right hon. Friend see that they are more evenly distributed throughout the country so that it is no longer necessary for desperately ill patients to be transported considerable distances to be given this life-saving treatment?
That is certainly one of the ideas of establishing wider facilities. I have made funds available for the establishment or extension of these dialysis units at 15 hospitals and other units are being considered by hospital authorities. Each of these units will have at least ten beds.
Does the Minister consider that patients with chronic renal failure can be treated in their own homes? What steps is he taking to ensure that the necessary machines will be provided by local authorities as well as by the hospitals?
This must be a matter for hospital authorities. Home dialysis presents special problems. It is important to evaluate them before commending any widespread extension of this practice. A pilot study is in progress in London and a further pilot trial is planned in the North of England. We must see what results these trials produce before moving too fast in home dialysis.
Drug Addiction (Advisory Committee)
21.
asked the Minister of Health whether he will now announce the composition and terms of reference of the advisory committee on drug addiction.
I hope an announcement will be made soon.
Can the Minister say why there has been such a long delay between the presentation of the Report of the Brain Committee and any action by his Ministry?
Yes, Sir. A great deal of preparatory study and consultation between Government Departments and the professional and other bodies concerned is involved. I am pressing ahead in conjuction with my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Home Secretary, and I am anxious that the committee should be set up and should start work as soon as possible.
Will my right hon. Friend consider including in the terms of reference the over-prescription of drugs by medical practitioners to registered addicts? The amounts of these which are reaching the market are increasing. They are much cheaper on the black market to young people than they have been hitherto. More and more are becoming addicted, and this is becoming a graver social problem.
I am sure that this problem will be within the ambit of the work of the committee when it is set up.
Is drug addiction in this country as great as it has been made out to be in certain recent sensational Press articles?
Without knowing the articles to which the hon. Member refers it is difficult to say. It is a serious problem and there is evidence that it has been increasing.
Disposable Syringe Needles(Personal Case)
24.
asked the Minister of Health when the supply of disposable syringe needles for the daughter of a constituent of the hon. Member for Stockport, South, asked for in November 1965 and promised in February 1966, will be made available.
I am informed that disposable needles have been supplied on several occasions.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that he has been wrongly informed and that he should make further inquiries? I have letters from my constituents saying that these disposable needles were provided only when this Question appeared on the Order Paper.
Because there is a conflict of evidence it does not necessarily follow that I have been misinformed. I am told that 50 needles were sent by post to the child's home address on 4th June, which is the occasion to which my hon. Friend has referred, and also that on two previous occasions sets of 30 needles were given to the child's parents.
Hospitals
Chelsea Postgraduate Medicalcentre
17.
asked the Minister of Health when he intends to start the proposed postgraduate hospital development in Chelsea.
The Hospital Building Programme (Cmnd. 3000) envisages a start on building of the Chelsea Postgraduate Medical Centre in the period after 1969–70.
Is the right hon. Gentleman sure that this is the right site for this development? Is he aware that Chelsea is a residential area in the heart of London and that there has been so much loss of residential accommodation in the heart of London that it is important that the Government should not take a lead in reducing it even further?
As I think the hon. Member knows, because he was connected with the Department at the time, the concept of this group of postgraduate teaching hospitals was first announced in June, 1961, and provision was made in the first Hospital Plan produced in January, 1962. As at present advised, I do not see any better site available for the scheme.
18.
asked the Minister A Health whether he will give an undertaking that the proposed postgraduate hospital development in Chelsea will not involve any demolition of housing.
No, Sir.
Is the Minister aware hat this will cause great concern and that, for the reasons which I have already given, there is an absolute urgency that the amount of residential accommodation in Chelsea should not be reduced, and that failure to give this undertaking will, therefore, cause concern in my constituency?
I could not give that undertaking and proceed with the scheme. The first phase of the scheme will involve demolition of 20 houses, but not of course before 1970.
Amenity Beds
19.
asked the Minister of Health how many hospital authorities within the National Health Service have informed him of the results of the review of the arrangements of Section 4 beds as requested in his Circular HM(66)26; and if he will place examples of hospital leaflets which publicise the facilities of amenity beds in the Library.
I shall be calling for reports later in the year. Meanwhile I will arrange for sample leaflets to be placed in the Library.
How many of the regional hospitals boards have not yet replied? Will my right hon. Friend take the opportunity of reviewing the whole system of bed allocation by consultants?
I think I am right in saying that the replies from hospital authorities are not yet due. Certainly, I will consider any further steps that need to be taken in connection with pay beds in the light of the replies which I receive.
Commonwealth Countries (Seconded Personnel)
22.
asked the Minister of Health what encouragement he gives to regional hospital boards to second their personnel for a tour in overseas countries of the Commonwealth; and whether those volunteering to go will lose or gain promotion in their home-based jobs.
I have asked boards to assist senior hospital medical and dental staff to accept short-term appointments overseas and to agree to second the more junior staff to overseas posts arranged by the Ministry of Overseas Development. New appointments in the hospital service are filled by competition, and any overseas experience of a doctor seeking a higher appointment on return would be taken into account.
Did the right hon. Gentleman call the attention of the boards to the agreement between the Greater London Council and the Government of Nigeria whereby teachers who volunteer for three years get accelerated promotion?
I will look into this. I assure the hon. Member that regional boards have for a very long time been encouraging their doctors to go overseas, certainly since 1952. As for arrangements within the Commonwealth, the hon. Member might be interested in the proceedings of the Commonwealth Medical Conference, which was held last autumn.
Stepping Hill Hospital, Stockport
23.
asked the Minister of Health the reason for the closing of the diabetic clinic at Stepping Hill Hospital, Stock port.
The clinic facilities for diabetic patients at Stepping Hill Hospital have not been discontinued.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that my constituents have been advised that they must in future attend at Macclesfield and that the clinic at Stepping Hill has been closed down? They have further been advised that transport will be provided, but they have to go with sandwiches because they cannot be returned home until after 4 o'clock, which means a whole day in order to attend the clinic.
I will certainly make further inquiries and write to my hon. Friend about some of the specific points which he has made. My information, however, is that there never has been a diabetic clinic at this hospital. The clinic for the area is at Stockport Infirmary. To supplement this service, some diabetic patients are received by the same consultant at his medical clinic at Stepping Hill.
Will the Minister look carefully at this matter, because the general hospital at Macclesfield is an ex-workhouse built in 1842 and, under the new Hospital Plan, the time before rebuilding takes places has been put back six or seven years? Will the Minister consider the whole area, because Stockport and Macclesfield are very badly served in all respects?
I am sure that conditions in the area have been considered very carefully by the regional board in drawing up its plans, but if the hon. Member has any particular question to raise I hope that he will put it on the Order Paper.
Ministry Of Labour
Seamen's Dispute
27.
asked the Minister of Labour if he will make a statement on the progress of the inquiry into the seamen's strike.
I ask my hon. and learned Friend to await the statement which my right hon. Friend will be making later this afternoon.
While thanking the Minister for the letter he wrote to me last Friday, may I ask my hon. Friend whether she realises that it is of the utmost import- ante to the national economy as well as to the seamen to expedite the settlement of the dispute?
My right hon. Friend is, I repeat, making a statement this afternoon and will be glad to follow up any points that my hon. and learned Friend would like to make.
Passports
28.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the annual cost of the organisation for the issue of passports to citizens of the United Kingdom; what is the number of people employed on this work; and whether he will simplify procedure and reduce the cost.
The cost of passport services in the United Kingdom in 1965 was estimated at £1,354,000 and the average number of staff employed was 838. No comparable figures are available for passport work done by our Consular and other representatives abroad. As regards the simplification of procedures, I refer the hon. Member to the Answer given on 26th May by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to the hon. Member for Leeds, North-West (Sir D. Kaberry).
Does not the right hon. Lady consider that we could have some simplification? Is it necessary for passports to be renewed every five years? If it is thought necessary for them to be renewed in this period in order that there should be some resemblance between the photograph and the holder of the passport, may I point out that there is no such resemblance at all? Why should not the passport last much longer than five years?
I am sure that the hon. Member's passport photograph is highly flattering to him. We have simplified procedure in recent years by the issue of the simpler form of passport which can be used for tourist purposes. I am sure that the hon. Member approves of that step. But it is not unreasonable to suggest that there should be a five-year renewal period.
Do the numbers include the numbers of people employed at the Ministry of Labour in issuing passports? Could not all this be done by the Foreign Office rather than in two offices?
It was for the convenience of the public that the passports were issued by the Ministry of Labour local offices. The number of staff given is taking an average over the whole, and it includes the main passport offices and the best estimate we can make of the amount of work involved at the local offices of the Ministry of Labour.
Vietnam
Medical And Welfare Assistance
29.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what medical and welfare assistance Her Majesty's Government are giving in Vietnam; and if he will extend this assistance.
A British paediatric team of about ten members will arrive shortly in Saigon to work at the Children's Hospital there for a period of five years. Her Majesty's Government have already send 20 mobile anaesthetic machines to Vietnam and are supplying 20 more. In addition we shall be sending equipment to the Children's Hospital where our team will work. We shall consider other opportunities for helping in the medical field as they arise.
While thanking the Minister for that encouraging Answer, may I ask him whether he does not agree that it was unfortunate—when an international welfare organisation provides beds in Europe for child victims of this war and appeals for air transport help—that, according to a letter sent to me last week, it was left to a private airline to provide help? If beds for treatment are available in Europe for child victims, may we have an assurance that the Government will provide air transport?
No request was made to the British Government for assistance. Needless to say we should consider any requests made. It is true that a request was made to the American Government, but in the light of the correspondence between the hon. Member and myself, I hope that he realises that the Americans have made very substantial contributions to the relief of suffering and to medical aid in Vietnam.
Will my hon. Friend assure us that the team which has gone to Saigon will give medical aid to all victims of the Vietnam war whether they come from North or from South Vietnam?
Of course that is so. It is sited in Saigon and the casualties inflicted on the Vietcong equally with others will receive humanitarian assistance.
Commonwealth Mission
30.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the present individual membership of the Commonwealth Mission on Vietnam.
The Commonwealth Prime Ministers meeting last year appointed my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, the President of Ghana and the Prime Ministers of Nigeria and of Trinidad and Tobago to be the members of the Mission. Any variation of membership would be a matter for the Commonwealth Prime Ministers collectively to consider.
Does that mean that ex-President Nkrumah is still a member of the Mission and that there is only one other member besides the Prime Minister of Britain? Since the need for a fair and honourable settlement in Vietnam is as great now as it was a year ago when the Mission was announced, may I ask whether the Government have any purposive plan to bring this about?
The hon. Member knows that the Commonwealth Mission is only one of many attempts which the Government have made to get a conference on Vietnam, but the Question refers to this particular method, which would require the collective decision of Commonwealth Prime Ministers.
What about Nkrumah.
Mr. Gordon Campbell—next Question.
United Nations Committee(African Tour)
31.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the United Kingdom, although a member of the United Nations Committee on the ending of Colonialism, has not sent a representative on the Committee's tour of African countries.
As the British representative told the Committee of 24 on 16th March, Her Majesty's Government did not consider that a further tour of Africa by the whole Committee at this time would result in any advantage commensurate with the expense involved. A decision not to go on the tour in no way affects our willingness to co-operate in the constructive work of the Committee.
Does this mean that the Government have decided that it is better to boycott the United Nations Committee rather than attend and use their membership and their moderating influence?
There is no question at all of boycotting. This Committee went to Africa on an extended tour last year. It is now engaged upon a tour of some 70 persons, lasting six weeks, going around the five capitals, and we felt that this was not the best way to employ the funds of the United Nations or the time of the members of the Committee.
Will my hon. Friend tell me whether this is the Committee which gave full endorsement to the activities of the terrorists in Aden and said that it was not interested in the evidence of Her Majesty's Government since Britain was a colonial Power?
If my hon. and learned Friend wishes to have a complete answer, he should put down a Question. I think that he is referring to the same Committee.
Disarmament
33.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what new proposals on disarmament have been put forward by Her Majesty's Government since 15th October, 1964.
I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to him on 28th February. The Government wish to make progress in the disarmament field, particularly on non-proliferation and a comprehensive nuclear test ban. To this end, we play our full part in the negotiations at the Eighteen Nation Disarmament Committee. In present circumstances it is negotiation rather than new proposals that is needed.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has still not mentioned one new proposal on disarmament which the Government have put forward since they came to power in 1964? What has happened to the new initiative on disarmament which the people of this country were promised in the Labour Party manifesto of 1964?
When I took over office the Eighteen Nation Disarmament Committee was not sitting. One of my first tasks was to represent to the Soviet Government the desirability of their agreeing with the American Government on its recall. It has now been recalled. Our representative there has played a prominent part, and is still doing so, in the hope that we shall be able to reach an agreement.
Is there not good sense in the proposals of the non-aligned Governments to ban all but the smallest nuclear tests since these can now be identified and located and since four-fifths of a loaf is surely better than none?
As I said on an earlier occasion, we are examining this proposal.
Does the right hon. Gentleman remember the scathing comments which the Prime Minister used to make when he was at this Box on the activities of Lord Harlech and others of my right hon. Friends? Is it not time, after almost two years, that we had one result in this field from the Government?
I trust that we shall have a result, but, as the right hon. Gentleman knows very well, this is not something which can be achieved by one Government alone.
Space Vehicles (Debris)
34.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the accumulating space debris circling the earth, Her Majesty's Government will propose in the United Nations Organisation that international action be taken to reduce the growing danger of such debris causing devastation upon re-entry above built-up areas.
The United Nations have tried for some two years without success to agree on a draft convention on liability for damage caused by objects from Outer Space. As it has proved so difficult to achieve agreement even on this basic legal aspect of the problem I doubt whether the action suggested by my hon. Friend would be effective.
In view of the fact that there are now over 400 objects in orbit, and in view of the fact that it is likely that much heavier booster stages will be used in the moon programmes of some Powers, does not my right hon. Friend agree that we should continue to press for some such action to be taken before the risks which are now apparent become even more serious?
Certainly we should wish to do anything possible to meet what may be a difficult situation. I am advised—I am only an innumerate Minister at the Foreign Office—that only in exceptional cases would space debris survive being burned out by re-entry into the atmosphere.
Nuclear Weapons
36.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what progress has been achieved towards the conclusion of an agreement to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons.
Amendments to the Western draft Treaty of last August were tabled in the Eighteen Nation Disarmament Committee at Geneva on 21st March. We believe these represent a considerable step forward. We hope that progress will be made when the texts are further discussed in detail at the new session beginning tomorrow in Geneva.
Does not the Foreign Secretary agree that this problem is becoming increasingly urgent? Does he agree with his noble Friend the Minister of State for Disarmament that we are unlikely to see progress until N.A.T.O. has decided how to deal with the question of nuclear sharing and that the best way of doing so would be by way of consultation and not by a joint nuclear force? Will he take this opportunity of making clear his agreement with that thesis?
I certainly agree with the hon. Member about the urgency of this question and with what was said by my noble Friend. The latter part of his question is such that another Question should be put down about it.
is my right hon. Friend aware that the work of the Minister of State for Disarmament and the concrete proposals which he has put forward have widespread support in the House and in the country and are in themselves a contradiction of the allegations which are being made that the Government are doing nothing in this field? Will he persevere with this policy until he is successful?
In view of what my right hon. Friend said about the Government's desire not to spread nuclear arms, will he assure us that the arms salesman who has recently been appointed will not sell any of these arms to other parts of the world?
I think it has been made quite clear that the Government's policy is against the proliferation of nuclear weapons.
Eastern Mediterranean
37.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what plans Her Majesty's Government have for neutralising the eastern Mediterranean.
None, Sir.
Can my right hon. Friend be satisfied with that kind of action. bearing in mind that the political squabbling between N.A.T.O. and the Warsaw Pact Powers in this part of the world is providing a serious obstacle to democratic and peaceful progress in many countries ranging from Greece right round to North Africa?
When my hon. Friend speaks of neutralising the Eastern Mediterranean, that might, for example, be interpreted to mean the exclusion of Greece and Turkey from N.A.T.O. I do not believe that that would be a wise step to take, or that it would contribute to the stability of the area.
Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that it is the Government's intention to maintain a British naval presence in that area?
I think that Government policy on this is well known.
Can my right hon. Friend tell us whether the covenant of the United Nations does not neutralise not only the eastern Mediterranean but the world?
No, I think not. The Charter of the United Nations, to which I think my hon. and learned Friend refers, provides for regional organisations.
European Launcherdevelopment Organisation
38 and 39.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether Her Majesty's Government's notes to the Governments of France and Italy concerning the European Launcher Development Organisation notify the intention to withdraw from the Organisation; and what consideration has been given to whether such withdrawal is compatible with the terms of the treaty;
(2) whether Her Majesty's Government's notes to the Governments of France and Italy concerning the European Launcher Development Organisation only notify withdrawal from participation in the European Launcher Development Organisation's programme; and what consideration has been given to whether such withdrawal is compatible with the terms of the treaty.The aide-mémoire delivered to our European Launcher Development Organisation partners on the 3rd June did not notify them of our intention to withdraw from the Organisation. What it stated was that we felt unable to take any further part in finan- cing the European Launcher Development Organisation programme beyond the extent to which we were already committed. There was no question of our seeking to act in breach of the Treaty. The second parts of the questions do not therefore arise. A copy of the aide-mémoire has been placed in the Library.
Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is most undesirable that reports should circulate implying that we were likely to break our treaty obligations without their being immediately contradicted by the Government?
I think that it is clear from the terms of the aide-mémoire that we had no such intention.
Would the right hon. Gentleman confirm now that our residual commitment after any rearrangement has been made will be about 27 per cent. of costs?
As for further arrangements, the hon. Gentleman should await a later Question to be answered by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation.
Is it not clear to the Foreign Secretary that he cannot make this distinction and that if Britain leaves the project which E.L.D.O. is conducting that is practically the end of the Organisation?
The point I am making is that we were not proposing to do any-think which was in breach of the treaty. We propose to carry out such commitments as we have but, as the aide-mémoire said, the then proposals did not provide a basis for continued participation beyond our commitments.
Is there to be a statement at the end of Questions on this matter, as the right hon. Gentleman's answers have been entirely unsatisfactory?
There are other Questions on the Order Paper which deal with the whole issue.
Can the Foreign Secretary explain to the House how it got about on the Continent, as it certainly did, that the Government were to withdraw? Can he give a categorical assurance that E.L.D.O. is going on, or is that still undecided?
I should draw attention to the fact—and this partly answers the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home)—that the basis of this question is the narrow though still important point of whether we were taking action in breach of the treaty. The answer to that is no. We made it clear that the then proposals did not provide a basis for continued participation. It may have been that which gave rise to the impression to which the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) refers. However, questions about fresh proposals are properly dealt with in answer to later Questions.
Aden (British Casualties)
40.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many British subjects have been killed in Aden and how many have been wounded there, by terrorist attacks between 1st January and 31st May, 1966.
In South Arabia, including Aden and the Protectorate, eight killed and 111 wounded.
Can my hon. Friend say whether there have been signs of diminution in these acts of terrorism in recent weeks?
I am afraid not. One must hope that the initiative which is being taken by the Federal Government in convening a conference to implement the United Nations Resolutions and to ensure a political settlement will meet with the response which my right hon. Friend desires.
Central Europe
41.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will publish in HANSARD a list of the steps taken by Her Majesty's Government in pursuit of a policy of neutralising central Europe, as proposed in the Foreign Affairs section of the Labour Party's publication, "The New Britain".
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given by my hon. Friend the Minister of State to the hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Dickens) on 12th May.
Will my right hon. Friend accept that there has been no initiative whatsoever since we came to power in October, 1964, towards implementing this policy of the Labour Party? Will he accept what many of us believe that the reason for this is that there has been strong pressure put upon him by officials in the Foreign Office counter to the policy laid down by the Labour Party on this matter?
No, I would not accept that. My hon. Friend must understand that in statements of Labour Party policy there are both the matters to which he refers and a statement of firm support for N.A.T.O. Progress on the lines which he wants and which I want has to be made in consultation with our allies. The passage to which he refers in the publication "The New Britain" says:
"To achieve further progress a heavy responsibility rests on the Soviet Union to assist in providing facilities for effective inspection."
As it is stated on page 21 of that document that the Labour Party had already put forward constructive proposals on this subject, will the Foreign Secretary consider publishing those proposals and any action taken on them since October, 1964?
This has been dealt with, as I said in my main Answer, and it has also been dealt with in debate. The essential point at issue is this: I believe that it is good sense to want to uphold firmly the alliance to which we belong. At the same time, it is important to work for the relaxation of tension. It is desirable not to be slow in pursuit of the objective of relaxation of tension, but in pursuit of that we cannot throw away the present reality of the alliance. It is the problem of combining these two things which is difficult.
Will my right hon. Friend pay some attention to the real situation in Europe today and will he take a look at the position of Roumania? We had a remarkable statement from that country over the weekend. Will he not take that as providing a basis for a new initiative in central Europe towards fulfilling Labour's policy in this direction?
I will certainly look at that. I want to make it clear that it is the Government's intention—and this was made clear at the recent meeting in Brussels—to secure relaxation of tension between the two groups which at present divide Europe. But I repeat that this is something which has to be done in consultation with our allies. As was pointed out in "The New Britain", the degree of progress which can be made depends on the actions not only of one side, but of the other, too.
Church Commissioners
International Language Club(Croydon Premises)
35.
asked the hon. and learned Member for Brigg, as Second Church Estates Commissioner, what arrangements the Church Commissioners have made with the East Croydon Development Company, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Wates, the builders, to evict the International Language Club from their present premises in Croydon; and whether he will make a statement.
The Church Commissioners have made no arrangements for evictions. The East Croydon Estate Company, which is jointly owned by the Commissioners and Wates Ltd., own a number of properties occupied by the International Language Club. Most of the leases expired in 1964 and the sites are required for an approved residential redevelopment. Three-year extensions of leases were granted in respect of some properties and two-year extensions to 24th June, 1966, in the case of six. A further year's extension has already been arranged for three of these six properties and an extension until the end of the year has been offered for the other three.
Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that the International Language Club is a remarkably successful piece of international government, that it has rendered great service over nearly 30 years to thousands of students from overseas, that in recent times it has been a victim of Rachmanism at its worst, that its founder Mr. Driscoll was nearly beaten to death in his bed two or three years ago and that there have been mysterious fires in the club's properties? Will he consult Mr. Driscoll and myself about what can be done to help this club to carry on its work?
My right hon. Friend can be assured that everything I can do to assist such international work as he says has been carried out by this club will be done, and that I will most certainly consult him.
Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that, in consultation with the Church Commissioners, I have arranged for a six months' extension to the end of the year? Is he aware that while there is much gratitude on the part of the students that they are not to be thrown out, there is still a very strong feeling that the Church Commissioners, with all their money, could try to build a new hostel for the students? Would he use his considerable persuasion on the Church Commissioners to try to get this new hostel built in the near future?
The Church Commissioners will, of course, consider any proposal which is put to them, but their main object is to provide funds for the payment of stipends for the clergy of the Church of England.
rose—
Order. Even the Church Commissioners must be brief.
Ministry Of Aviation
European Launcher Developmentorganisation
43.
asked the Minister of Aviation if he will make a statement on the outcome of the further meeting on 9th June in Paris regarding the future of the European Launcher Development Organisation.
I will, with permission, make a statement at the end of Questions.
Ministry Of Defence
Anglo-American Offset Purchaseagreement (Harbour Tugs)
44.
asked the Secretary of State for Defence, in the light of Government policy set out in the Defence White Paper with regard to the agreement offsetting the foreign exchange cost of British purchases of United States aircraft, what representations he has made to the Government of the United States of America regarding the rejection of a British tender to build harbour tugs for the United States Navy.
None, Sir. There are no grounds for such representations.
Why not? How does the Secretary of State for Defence think that he will get fulfilment of the undertakings in the White Paper about recovery of the cost of the F111A aircraft and other American purchases if these tenders cannot go through?
We have no intention of asking the American Government to subsidise British exports. Under the offset agreement, we are allowed to compete without discrimination against American firms. This was a small order which altogether would have totalled less than £1 million, and factors such as transport costs and lower productivity in British yards prevented us from beating American prices.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman now realise how misleading it was for the Government to talk about ensuring that the costs of the F111A would be offset? Is it not a fact that further invitations to tender have now been withdrawn?
There was nothing whatever misleading. As I told the House the other day, we have already been invited to provide assault tracking to twice the value of the tugs mentioned in the Question. Invitations to bid for two other kinds of ships are now coming in. One invitation to bid for ships was withdrawn because the American specification was about to be changed, but that bid will he renewed in a few weeks' time.
South Vietnamese Troops(Malaysia Training Courses)
45.
asked the Secretary of State for Defence how many British Service men are currently engaged in the training in Malaysia of South Vietnamese troops; what plans he has to increase this and other assistance by Britain to the United States war effort in Vietnam; and whether he will make a statement.
South Vietnamese soldiers have, since 1961, been attending courses at training centres designed primarily for our own and Commonwealth use. The total number of British Service men operating these centres is 55, of whom only three are concerned exclusively with courses for the South Vietnamese. We have no plans to increase this or to give other assistance to Vietnamese forces or to American forces in Vietnam.
Can my right hon. Friend inform the House how he reconciles his Answer with the Government's professed policy of non-intervention in the disastrous war in Vietnam?
Yes, Sir. We have made it clear that we have no intention of participating ourselves in the fighting in Vietnam or supplying weapons to Vietnam. This remains our policy, but the training of Vietnamese service men started as far back as 1961 under the previous Government and we see no reason why we should not assist in the training of a free country to defend its freedom.
Irrespective of the year in which this facility was first offered, is it not a very odd way for a co-Chairman to exercise his neutrality?
I do not know how odd it is, but I must remind the hon. Gentleman that the Soviet co-Chairman of the Geneva Conference is supplying arms on a large scale for the fighting in Vietnam.
In view of the appalling events which are now taking place in South Vietnam in particular, as revealed by the actions of the Buddhists in protest, will my right hon. Friend reconsider and withdraw his statement that the Government of South Vietnam is a free Government? Will he also give immediate orders for stopping even this meagre support for South Vietnam which is now being provided by this method, in view of the barbarous methods of war now being employed by our American allies in Vietnam?
I would have thought that if my hon. Friend regarded some of the methods used in Vietnam as barbarous he would welcome our participation in training the soldiers of South Vietnam to fight in the way which has enabled us to bring confrontation to an end at a minimum loss of blood and treasure.
Scotland
Glasgow Children (Part-Timeeducation)
46.
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many Scottish children are receiving part-time education; and what percentage of these is in Glasgow.
2,126 at the end of May—all in Glasgow.
Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that this reveals a very alarming situation which could well get worse as a result of his right hon. Friend's disgraceful handling of the salary claim of the Scottish teachers? What specific steps will he take to ensure that Glasgow bears only its fair share of the teacher shortage instead of the present situation in which, with only one-fifth of the population of Scotland, we have all of the children who are receiving part-time education?
The hon. Gentleman must know that the situation at the end of May was much better than it was under the Conservative Government in 1964, and that the number has been more than halved since March, 1965. As for the steps we shall take, the Roberts Report will be received next month and we hope and desire that my right hon. Friend will be able to take appropriate steps then in addition to what he has already done.
Does my hon. Friend realise that he has not answered the first part of the Question? Does he realise that there are children in other cities in Scotland as well as Glasgow and will he give the percentage figures for those receiving part-time education?
I must remind my hon. and learned Friend that I am informed that there are no children, other than in Glasgow, who are receiving part-time education.
Housing
Improvement Grants
49.
asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will state how many houses have had baths, hot-water systems and inside water closets installed on standard improvement grants in the last 12 months to a convenient date; if he will give the corresponding figures for the previous 12 months; how many of these were in houses let by private landlords; and what steps he proposes to take to accelerate installations.
With permission, I will circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT, but those in respect of houses let by private landlords show no significant change. My right hon. Friend is watching the whole situation closely to see where a fresh impetus is most needed.
Is not the number far fewer than 200,000 a year aimed at by successive Governments, and of those improved have not only one in four or five been landlords' houses as against owner-occupied houses? In view of that, will my hon. Friend consider asking local authorities to go ahead with improvement areas using compulsion where necessary?
The whole subject of improvement grants is under review by my right hon. Friend. Grants to landlords amount to less than one-third of all standard grants. We are not satisfied with this situation, but let us take credit for the fact that nearly one million grants have been given. However, we shall take action to try to improve this figure as much as we can.
May I ask the Minister if he will look very carefully indeed into two things, first of all, the 15-year rule, which is being operated very harshly, and secondly, the unwillingness of tenants to have the improvements made?
These are very fair points. The 15-year rule is one of the things we are now considering to see
STANDARD GRANTS—ENGLAND AND WALES | ||||||||
(*) Local authority dwellings
| (†) Private dwellings
| |||||||
Period
| No. of dwellings
| Baths or showers
| Hot water supplies
| Water closets
| No. of dwellings
| Baths or showers
| Hot water supplies
| Water closets
|
Twelve months ended 30th April 1965 | 24,239 | 1,935 | 17,017 | 5,326 | 50,179 | 38,762 | 40,775 | 44,143 |
Twelve months ended 30th April 1966 | 17,869 | 1,595 | 15,101 | 2,988 | 48,936 | 36,726 | 40,113 | 42,336 |
(*) Numbers in applications approved. | ||||||||
(†) Numbers where works completed. It is not known how many of the dwellings in which these installations were made were owner-occupied or let. Of all standard grants approved to private houses 25 per cent. were for private landlords during the twelve months ended 30th April, 1965 and 28 per cent. during the twelve months ended 30th April. 1966. |
European Launcherdevelopment Organisation
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
43.
To ask the Minister of Aviation if he will make a statement on the outcome of the further meeting on 9th June, in Paris, regarding the future of the European Launcher Development Organisation.
With permission, I will now answer Question No. 43.
At the conference of Ministers on 26th-28th April and in the aide memoire delivered to our European partners on 3rd June we expressed the doubts we have had about the merits and economic viability of E.L.D.O. A and E.L.D.O. PAS programmes and our concern at the heavy financial burden—38·8 per cent.—which Her Majesty's Government had to bear since the start of the organisation. In addition, the costs of the programme have risen substantially from the first estimate of £70 million to the current figure of £158 million. I repeated these doubts at the resumed Ministrial conference on 9th June. Our European partners then put forward proposals for a more equitable distribution of costs between member countries which offer a substantial reduction in our contribution. These revised proposals, which whether it might be reduced to something like 10. We are also considering the attitude of tenants towards having improvements done, notwithstanding certain justifiable rent increases which follow.Following are the figures:we and the other member Governments are now considering, will apply both to the initial programme and to the proposed further programme—E.L.D.O. PAS—for improving the performance of the launchers.
Additionally, working parties have been set up to prepare for the next Ministerial conference in Paris on 7th and 8th July, proposals to ensure a better control of expenditure, arrangements for financial ceilings, distribution of work, and for regular annual reviews of progress and costs.
Is the Minister aware that while we welcome the Government's second thoughts on their decision to withdraw from E.L.D.O., a decision which would have had the most disastrous effects on our prospects of entering the Common Market, we could not agree with the way the decision was announced before this further meeting, because it had a disastrous effect on sterling and also on the country's reputation for fidelity to treaties and gave a disastrous impression of vaccination? Why was the decision announced like that?
The reason why the aide mérnoire was sent to our allies was that I was asked at the previous meeting if we would give an indication of the Government's thinking ahead of the resumed Ministerial meeting, so that the member Government would have an opportunity to consider it before their Ministers actually arrived in Paris.
I do not agree that it had any disastrous effect at all. In fact, these are not my words. The communiqué issued after the conference last week said that it had been conducted inI endorse that."a cordial, constructive and co-operative atmosphere".
Would the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether any proposals were put forward by any of our partners to make a change in the distribution of costs before the meeting of 9th June, or whether we asked for any such proposals prior to our original decision to withdraw? Secondly, could he explain to the House what were the precise reasons for the Government's original decision, and equally, what are the reasons other than the chronic inability to make and keep commitments, for now reversing it—although we welcome that reversal?
Finally—
Too long.
—would the right hon. Gentleman say whether he realises the appalling muddle and anxiety caused among British scientific workers and in British industry and will he take the opportunity to make clear to the country now what exactly are the Government's plans for this project?
What the right hon. Gentleman is now inviting me to do is what I thought he and his right hon. Friends did not want us to do, namely, to make a unilateral declaration on the conduct of an international organisation in which we have partners. The outcome of our meeting, if it is approved by the various Governments, will lead to a very substantial reduction in the British contribution, and, by common consent, a vastly improved technical and economic viability of the Organisation.
I would have thought that the right hon. Gentleman would have welcomed these things, instead of trying to make political capital out of our attempt to remedy a very bad convention which he and others in the previous Government made.
May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the statement he has just made, in view of the fact that instead of having to face an annual charge which was created by the party opposite of nearly £15 million a year my right hon. Friend has now reduced it to, I think. something like £6 million a year?
A supplementary question must be a proper question.
I thought that I had come to it, Sir.
Is it not clear that it is impossible to compete in space with the United States or with the Soviet Union except on a European scale? Will not the Minister, therefore, respond to the request of my right hon. Friend that he should say in principle that the Government mean to stay in E.L.D.O. and to take part in these projects? This is what we want to get from the Minister. Whether or not, as the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary denied earlier, a treaty has been breached, is it not clear that our partners have been very shabbily treated?
The only words of recrimination that I heard to a large extent were directed by some of the member countries on the way they had been induced to join the organisation. The reason why I cannot go further than this is that, naturally, the Governments want to consider the proposed arrangements. As I said, I think that the House would welcome the fact that this working group is to consider whether we can get ways and means of getting annual and total control over the whole of the project. It would, I think, prejudice the successful outcome of these arrangements if I were to go further than we have been able to go so far.
Will the Minister endeavour not to regard any effort we may make in space as competition with the United States and Russia, but as part of a co-operative effort for mankind as a whole?
We confirm this, and, of course, the purpose of the further programme, if we are able to embark on it, is directed exclusively at the telecommunications scheme.
Would the Minister now confirm that the figure I asked the Foreign Secretary half an hour ago is indeed the correct one, that British participation, as a result of this rearrangement, is reduced from 38·8 per cent. to 27 per cent.? If the latter figure is incorrect what is the revised participation?
I am sorry, but I cannot give the figure today.—[Horn. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Because the proposals which were put to me were on a confidential basis. Some figures have been disclosed, but not from me. I must respect the request of the Governments concerned that they want to consider these matters, each Government themselves, before a public announcement can be made.