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Pensions And National Insurance

Volume 730: debated on Monday 20 June 1966

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Self-Employed Persons

33.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if she will define what is meant by a self-employed person for the purpose of regulations under the National Insurance schemes.

A self-employed person for the purposes of the National Insurance Act, 1965, may be broadly defined as one who is gainfully employed in employment in Great Britain which is not employment under a contract of service. Modifications have been made by regulation in a number of cases where the nature and circumstances of particular types of employment have made this desirable. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the relevant regulations.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a growing practice, particularly in the building and road haulage industries, of employers encouraging their employees—I use the word advisedly—to register as self-employed and so evade their responsibilities under P.A.Y.E. and all the rest? Can my right hon. Friend take any steps to stop this?

Yes, Sir. The Government are aware of that and try wherever possible to take action against it. In reply to an earlier Question, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works showed that the Minister of Labour is also concerned in this matter.

Do people who seek by these devices to avoid their responsibilities under the National Insurance scheme, and so on, deprive their employees of benefit under that scheme also?

Yes, they suffer in certain ways. For their own good, it is much better if the full ordinary insurance is paid.

Sickness Benefit

34.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if she will amend the conditions for entitlement to sickness benefit under the National Insurance scheme to ensure that expatriate Britons are treated as favourably as immigrants.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance
(Mr. Norman Pentland)

No, Sir. The National Insurance scheme makes no distinction between these two groups.

Surely the Minister must agree that a first entrant has to wait simply 26 weeks before he or she gets benefit and that this applies to immigrants, whereas an expatriate Briton coming back to this country must wait any length of time from 11 to 23 months before qualifying for benefit?

Yes, Sir; but, as the hon. Member is aware, there are special arrangements for new entrants for insurance. This special provision applies, however, to all new entrants for insurance, irrespective of whether they are recent school-leavers or people coming to this country for the first time. There is no question whatever of discrimination against expatriate Britons or in favour of immigrants coming to this country. They are all treated alike.

Industrial Injury Benefits And Compensation

36.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether she will initiate a review of industrial injury benefits and compensation.

These benefits form part of the general social security scheme and will be included in the review on which we are engaged.

Will the Minister bear in mind when considering this matter in the review that some of the people who are disabled through accidents in industry gel: a very small return and are in great difficulty for the rest of their life, and that if one compares what they receive, with, for example, those involved in motor car accidents, the comparison is not very good?

All these points will be taken into account. The hon. Member will, of course, be aware of the machinery that is set up under the Industrial Injuries Act for the assessment of the disability.

Can the Minister say when this reform is likely to be introduced and whether it will include the whole question of disability, whether industrial or not?

I have not spoken about any reform. In answer to the Question, I said that the industrial injuries provisions were being considered under the general review.

Widowed Mother's Allowance (Mrs M Tazzar)

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (1) why Mrs. May Tazzar has not yet received her widowed mother's allowance, in view of the fact that her husband was killed last winter while working aboard the Sea Cow, a drilling rig, off the Yorkshire coast; and if she will expidite this case;

(2) what length of time must elapse before a person is officially presumed dead by her Department; and when this presumption will apply in the case of Mr. Edward Tazzar, of 8 Glentyan Terrace, Prices Hill, Glasgow, who was killed last winter while working aboard the Sea Cow, a drilling rig, off Redcar on the coast of Yorkshire.

Mrs. Tazzar has been receiving her benefit since 24th May. I have written to my hon. Friend about this case.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I am indebted to her for the very full explanation of this unfortunate case which she has given me in writing? In her reply, however, my right hon. Friend states that, while she is not concerned with any legal question of presumption, nevertheless the date on which the claimant—[Interruption.]

Might I say it, then, Mr. Speaker, without quoting—that the date of death of the claimant must be established. Was it not established in the Press almost the following day? Why was not that acted upon?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this question on the Floor of the House. I regret very much the very long delay in this case, which I think was unwarrantable. I assure my hon. Friend that we are doing everything possible to ensure that such a delay does not take place again.

Pensioners (Method Of Identification)

39.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what method of identification is available to a pensioner drawing his retirement pension quarterly to enable him to obtain concessionary rates available to pensioners on production of their pension book or other similar document.

Will not the hon. Gentleman have another look at this matter since a number of pensioners who are paid quarterly have no means of identifying themselves so that they can obtain concessions which are available to pensioners paid at other times?

It is quite correct that a pensioner who receives his pension quarterly does not possess an order book. I draw the hon. Member's attention, however, to the fact that such a pensioner will have received a notice of entitlement when his pension was first awarded. If that is presented to the operators of these concessions for old people, it functions in the same way as the order book.

Social Security Benefits

40.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what sum of money will still be available under the National Plan for real improvements in social security benefits up to 1970 after the provisions of the Ministry of Social Security Bill are put into operation.

Rather more than £280 million, in 1969–70, over and above anything needed for adjustments to meet price changes.

Does the right hon. Lady agree that this is an exceedingly small sum in relation to the increased resources which have been made available for pensions and other benefits under previous Tory Administrations? Does she propose to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make more resources available so that progress can be continued?

I do not at all accept what the hon. Member has said. This sum of money is over and above the 12s. 6d. increase which was made last year, the very biggest increase ever given.

Can the right hon. Lady give a firm assurance that these extra resources will be used to provide help for the chronically sick and severely disabled group of people who do not benefit under the Social Security Bill?

I have told the hon. Member previously that those chronic sick who are not covered by the existing National Insurance provisions are among those whom we are considering in our review. I would add, however, that there were so many things left over for us to consider that it is not surprising that it is taking us time, but at least we are bringing each stage forward as we are ready.