Skip to main content

Commons Chamber

Volume 799: debated on Tuesday 7 April 1970

The text on this page has been created from Hansard archive content, it may contain typographical errors.

House Of Commons

Tuesday, 7th April, 1970

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

Prayers

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Private Business

Birmingham Corporation Bill

Hampshire County Council Bill

Haverng Corporation Bill

Read the Third time and passed.

Northumberland County Council Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

The CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS, by Her Majesty's Command, acquainted the House, That Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Bill, gives Her Consent, as far as Her Majesty's interest is concerned, That the House may do therein as they shall think fit.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill, accordingly read the Third time and passed.

Wallasey Corporation Bill

West Riding County Council Bill

Read the Third time and passed.

Southampton Corporaton Bill

Bolton Corporation Bill

Swansea Corporation Bill

As amended, considered.

To be read the Third time.

Hooker Estates Limited (Trans Fer Of Registration) Bill Lords

Port Of London Bill Lords

Bills read a Second time and committed.

Oral Answers To Questions

Housing And Local Government

Building Regulations Advisory Committee

1.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will now take steps to reorganise his Building Regulations Advisory Committee, in order to give the structural engineering profession stronger representation upon it.

The present Committee of 15 members includes three structural engineers. To add further structural engineers would upset the balance of the Committee.

But in view of the Building Regulations Advisory Committee's performance on the fifth amendment, does not my right hon. Friend think that this Committee should be reorganised? Would he consider reappointing members at rather more frequent intervals than is now done?

I would not subscribe to my hon. Friend's criticism of the work of the Committee. It has worked very quickly, I think, and very effectively under great difficulties. I will bear in mind her suggestion that the membership should be reorganised more frequently, but I am sure that she will realise that I have to strike a balance between the various professional interests involved, and it would be wrong for me to tilt the Committee in one direction.

Building Regulations

2.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will have discussions with the Institution of Structural Engineers about the re-structuring of the Building Regulations.

I am always glad to discuss with professional institutions and other bodies matters concerning the Building Regulations.

Officials of the Department have had two recent discussions with representatives of the Institution of Structural Engineers, and both of these touched interalia on the structure of the Building Regulations.

But does my right hon. Friend appreciate that there is a dichotomy between the Building Regulations, which are mandatory, and the advice given by the Institution through the codes of practice committees which lay down good practice? Does he not think that this should be clarified? Would he look at this again?

We shall shortly be having a further meeting with the Institution of Structural Engineers and I will bear in mind what my hon. Friend says. I greatly appreciate the interest she takes in this matter.

Housing Subsidy (Brent)

7.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what was the amount of housing subsidy given in the last year for which figures are available to the London Borough of Brent.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government
(Mr. Reginald Freeson)

About £519,000 in 1969–70, Sir.

The figure in 1964 was £119,000 and in 1965–66, £225,000. In effect, this is an increase of about £400,000 over the past five years.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that, in the last set of figures published by the Association of Municipal Treasurers, the Exchequer subsidy represented 13 per cent. of the housing revenue, as against 39 per cent. provided by the rate subsidy? Does he not consider that that is too disproportionate?

I would, of course, have to check those figures to see whether or not they are correct. The question of rate subsidy is a matter not for the Exchequer but for the local authorities concerned. The hon. Gentleman has—as he often does when discussing these matters; the same can be said of many of his hon. Friends—omitted one important fact, which is that the biggest proportion of the so-called rate subsidy is, in fact, expenditure on urban renewal, salaries on capital account, land holdings, building purchases and like expenditure ahead of the actual building of estates.

Housing Subsidy (Ealing)

8.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what was the amount of housing subsidy given in the last year for which figures are available to the London Borough of Ealing.

Would my hon. Friend agree that, despite the generosity of the Government in their efforts to try to solve the nation's housing problem, boroughs like the London Borough of Ealing appear to be completely devoid of any compassion or sense of urgency in trying to rehouse people in the borough who are desperately in need of homes? Is he with me in condemning the London Borough of Ealing on its housing record?

I have been to see representatives of the London Borough of Ealing. I regret to say that, to date, despite lengthy discussions, probings and urgings on the borough to increase its building programme, a matter of considerable importance to people living in disgraceful housing conditions, the authority has so far not attempted to meet the wishes of the Ministry.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree, from the figures published by the A.M.T.I., that the capital value of the housing stock of this borough is less than the debt charge, and that that in itself is a discouragement to local authorities and is a direct result of Government interest policy?

The hon. Gentleman may seek to rationalise the situation in boroughs with this kind of problem—boroughs which are not facing up sufficiently to the problem—in that rather gobbledygook fashion. The plain fact is that there is now more Government financial assistance available to housing priority areas such as this, and other boroughs in Inner London, than ever before. There is no reason at all why this borough should not increase its building activities.

Rate Support Grant (Barrow-In-Furness)

10.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what was the estimated rate support grant paid to the County Borough of Barrow-in-Furness for 1969–70; and what was the corresponding figure for 1964–65.

The latest estimate of rate support grants payable to the County Borough of Barrow-in-Furness for 1969–70 is £2,365,907. The corresponding grants for 1964–65 totalled £1,476,952.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, without this rate support grant increase, the local authority would have had to increase its rates by 9s. 3d. in the £to maintain the present level of local government services provided in the county borough?

Yes, Sir. My hon. Friend is, I believe, perfectly correct, and it is worth pointing out also that the effect of the domestic element in the case of Barrow is to keep the domestic rate poundage in the present financial year at the same level as for 1969–70.

To save the time of the House, would the right hon. Gentleman recommend to his hon. Friends the fact that all of this could have been put in the Labour candidate's election address on Thursday?

It is not for me to rule on a matter of that kind. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not say anything improper about my hon. Friend's wish to elicit details about the great degree of generosity which the Government have shown in this matter.

Housing Subsidies (Havering)

11.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what was the amount of housing subsidy given in the last year for which figures are available to the London Borough of Havering.

In spite of the large sums of money involved, would my hon. Friend agree that the London Borough of Havering last year completed only about a dozen houses? Has he had an opportunity to send for the leaders of the council to get them to complete more houses next year?

Havering is one of those authorities which we have added to the list of authorities we are visiting for detailed discussions about their housing situation. We are very concerned not just with the position as it has been stated by my hon. Friend, but in relation to the prospects in the borough; planning for future housing programmes. I have invited representatives from the borough to meet me to discuss all aspects of their housing situation with a view to increasing their efforts.

Do not the housing statistics for 1969 show that Havering completed 529 houses, and not a dozen or so as mentioned by the hon. Gentleman? Why did not the Minister correct him?

The hon. Gentleman should be more concerned, as we are in this House and in the Department, to get the housing programmes of this and other boroughs, which are in grave need of houses, increased instead of participating in efforts to reduce house building under the leadership of the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker), who is not here today.

Rate Support Grant (Bradford)

13.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what was the estimated rate support grant paid to the County Borough of Bradford for 1969–70; and what was the corresponding figures for 1964–65.

The latest estimate of rate support grant payable to the County Borough of Bradford for 1969–70 is £11,234,606. The corresponding grants for 1964–65 totalled £6,484,388.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that information. Can he say how that would work out in terms of per head of population or in terms of domestic rateable value?

I think the best help that I can give my hon. Friend is to tell him that without that rate support grant the general rate last year would have been higher by 22s. 3d. in the £, and that the domestic element which the Government are paying has enabled the domestic rate in the coming financial year to be reduced by 3d. in the £

Would the right hon. Gentleman drop some of this electioneering nonsense and give the comparative figure after allowing for S.E.T. and increased rates of interest?

If the hon. Gentleman will table a Question to me on that subject, I will gladly give him the answer. If he is really interested in electioneering nonsense, he should have watched television last night.

Rent Rebate Schemes

14.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many rent rebate schemes have been introduced and improved by local authorities in England and Wales since he recommended rent rebate schemes to all authorities in Circular 46/67 issued on 29th June, 1967.

In the two-year period from March, 1967, to March, 1969, the number of housing authorities in England and Wales operating rent rebate schemes increased from about 46 per cent. to about 60 per cent. The number of council tenants covered by these schemes increased from about 64 per cent. to about 80 per cent. Since the circular was issued in June, 1967, many of the schemes then in operation have been improved.

Would my hon. Friend object if I included those figures in my election address as an example of what a Labour Government endeavour to do for the least well off?

Footpath Maps

15.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what guidance he has given to local authorities about the operation of the new provisions in the Countryside Act, 1968, enabling any mistakes on footpath maps to be corrected on review.

Advice about the kind of evidence to which local authorities can properly have regard under these provisions will be included in a circular to be issued shortly to local authorities.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that answer will be welcomed in the country? Is he also aware that many sober lovers of the countryside like myself are increasingly concerned at the loss of country footpaths to the general public?

I am sure that the whole House welcomes sober lovers. I welcome my hon. Friend's suggestion, because I believe it to be true that at present some local authorities are interpreting too widely their powers to enable mistakes to be rectified. I hope that the guidance which I shall shortly be issuing will prevent this from happening in future.

Planning Appeals

16.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what proportion of planning appeals are currently being decided by inspectors.

Is it my right hon. Friend's intention to transfer other forms of appeal to his inspectors on further classifications?

Yes, I am considering this. The progress made in delegating to inspectors is satisfactory. We originally estimated that it would be 46 per cent. It is at the moment 42 per cent., but it is being successful in shortening the time between receipt of notice of appeal and giving a decision. I am considering extending this power of delegation so that about 60 per cent. of appeals will be covered by it.

Rate Support Grant (Southampton)

17.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what was the estimated rate support grant paid to the County Borough of Southampton for 1969–70; and what was the corresponding figure for 1964–65.

The latest estimate of rate support grant payable to the County Borough of Southampton for 1969–70 is £5,889,856. The corresponding grants for 1964–65 totalled £3,183,698.

Housing Subsidy (Waltham Forest)

18.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what was the amount of housing subsidy given in the last year for which figures are available to the London Borough of Waltham Forest.

Do not those figures show quite clearly that the savage attacks being made by the Tory-dominated London Borough of Waltham Forest Council on local government services in that borough, consistently blamed on the Government, are totally unjustified? Is he aware of the very serious housing problem which will exist in years to come unless something definite is done about the planning of future housing development in Waltham Forest?

Yes, Sir. It has been the increasing practice in recent times for Conservative spokesmen in many boroughs—not all of them, but in many—to blame difficulties on the problem of heavy costs. It should be stated that more assistance is being given than has ever been given before. In the borough referred to there has been an increase of two-thirds. The figure in 1964 was £225,000.

Would the hon. Gentleman also admit, however, that despite the increase in housing subsidy, the charge to the rates as a result of the increase in the rate of interest has meant that the rate charge has more than doubled in the period for which he quoted figures?

The rate charge has not doubled. The hon. Gentleman is confusing two things. The main problem facing certain authorities—not all, but certain of them—is the problem of refinancing existing debt on past schemes. This does not affect the cost, or the subsidy towards the cost, of completed schemes. It is at a notional level of 4 per cent. interest charges.

House Building

19 and 24.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government (1) what is his latest estimate of the number of houses that will be started and the number that will he completed in Great Britain during 1970;

(2) how many houses have been started and how many have been completed in Great Britain during 1970 up to the latest convenient date.

It is too early in the year to make a reliable forecast. In the first two months of 1970, 37,536 dwellings were started and 49,963 completed in Great Britain. The decisions we have taken in recent weeks—notably the extra£50 million for local authority lending and the reduction in Bank Rate—will stimulate the rate of house building.

Does the Minister recall any previous occasion when a Government were falling short, mainly in the private sector, of their housing target. by 130,000 a year and at the same time there were 1,000 million bricks lying idle and 125,000 building operatives unemployed?

If the hon. Member is interested in research into past history, I should tell him that in 1963, the last full year of Conservative Government, there were 27,000 starts and 28,000 completions, which is much less than there have been in the present period.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the savage cut-back in my borough from 1,900 starts to only 24 has been matched in other boroughs? Is it not deplorable if local borough councils try to cut back Labour's housing programme to make General Election capital?

What my hon. Friend has said is perfectly true. It is of some interest that, in spite of the difficulties, a number of local authorities are managing to maintain a very high level of house building, whereas others, like that to which my hon. Friend has referred, are falling short very seriously.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say why it is too early to make a forecast for 1970, whereas only four years ago to the day, in 1966, he was able to forecast 500,000 houses being built in 1970? Does he not agree that the figures he has given show the biggest decline in completions since the war?

That may be due to the fact that at the time to which the hon. Member refers I was Minister for Overseas Development. I have no recollection of having made a prophecy of that kind. Indeed, I do not remember any other Minister of Housing giving a reliable forecast so early in the year.

New Towns (Housing Stock)

25.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what proposals he now has regarding the disposal of the housing stock of the Commission for the New Towns.

31.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what is the timetable for the transfer of new town housing assets to the appropriate local authority.

My right hon. Friend is considering this matter and hopes to make a statement in the summer.

Will the Minister recognise that his policy of disposal of houses to both tenants and local authorities at market value would impose unacceptable costs on local authorities if, in accordance with Government legislation, houses are handed over to them?

No, Sir. As far as I know, the sale of houses at market value has been accepted on both sides of the House, and it would raise serious questions of principle if we attempted to depart from that.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a great deal of disappointment in the new towns that more speedy progress has not been made towards handing over new town assets to the local authorities, and that the local authorities are extremely concerned that housing assets should be handed over at existing loan debt?

I am well aware that there is a desire for a speedy determination of the matter on the part of local authorities in new town areas. I hope that my announcement of a time when we hope to make a statement will go some way towards satisfying them that the matter is having speedy attention at our end.

Land Commission Levy

26.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will allow the costs of obtaining planning consent to be taken into account in calculating Land Commission levy.

No, Sir. My right hon. Friend has no power to make such an allowance under the Land Commission Act.

When other costs are allowable in these circumstances, why is it that the very costs which are essential to betterment should not be allowed? Should not the Minister think about legislation?

The reason they are not allowed is that when the House passed the legislation it decided not to include them.

Thames Flood Barrier

27.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what further information he has now obtained regarding the cost to public funds of the proposed Thames flood barrier.

As the hon. Member is aware the Greater London Council is conducting an investigation in depth into all the circumstances surrounding the Thames flood barrier problem. Five scientific and research bodies have been assisting the investigation. Of these the most crucial work is by the Hydraulic Research Station and it is expected that by July this work will have reached a stage to enable a choice to be made of the type of structure and the site. This will also enable a closer estimate of the cost to public funds to be made.

But does not the hon. Gentleman agree that when the time for choices comes the ultimate cost of an operation of that kind should be better met by the beneficiaries, just as the ultimate cost of, say, the Forth or Tay road bridges is met by the beneficiaries and not carried by the generality of taxpayers?

It would be very unwise to agree to any such proposition until we have had the result of the detailed research.

Housing Authorities, London (Conference)

28.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will call a conference of housing authorities in London to discuss the housing programme in the Metropolis.

I will bear my hon. Friend's suggestion for an all-London conference of authorities carefully in mind.

Will my right hon. Friend do this quickly, and do something about the shocking dereliction of housing responsibilities by boroughs like Bexley, Croydon and Merton, and by the G.L.C., whose guilty accomplices sit on the benches opposite and who are neglecting their housing responsibilities to London?

We are very well aware of the seriousness of the situation, and are having discussions with individual authorities. It is better to get those through before we consider a conference of the London housing authorities. My hon. Friend may be encouraged to know that no fewer than seven London boroughs, including some of the poorest, achieved programmes of over 1,000 dwellings in 1969. The others should seek to emulate them.

Does the Minister propose to take any steps to lower the interest rates imposed by the present Government on local authorities, which have had such a hindering effect on the building programme?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is not aware of the Housing Subsidies Act, 1967. He seems to overlook the fact that high interest rates are not peculiar to this country but are a world phenomenon.

House Building

29.

Jenkins asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what is the relative contribution in terms of housing building and local authorities, private builders and housing associations.

In the five years ended 31st December, 1969, 41·4 per cent. of dwellings completed in England were built by or on behalf of public authorities—local authorities, new town authorities and Government Departments—1·5 per cent. by housing associations and 57·1 per cent. by private builders.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many people have a much exaggerated idea of the contribution of housing associations to the general house building effort, and that Shelter has pointed out that its actual contribution to housing is minute? What steps does he propose to take to enable the housing associations to make a larger contribution?

The matter falls into two parts, First, there is the position with regard to co-ownership housing associations, those which operate under the aegis of the Housing Corporation. My right hon. Friend has announced an increase of £10 million in the Corporation's capital expenditure for 1970, which together with the building societies' contribution will allow an increase of about £20 million during the coming year. There is also the housing association side whereby local authorities financially sponsor schemes. This is now running at £17 million a year, and is expected to rise in the coming year.

Will the Minister confirm that, in contrast to the pretty miserable assistance given by the Government to housing associations, the Greater London Council is to give £75 million over three years, and that, contrary to what was suggested by his hon. Friend, this could produce 15,000 new and converted dwellings, to which the G.L.C. would have rights to over 9,000?

The hon. Gentleman is talking nonsense. The housing association movement in the purchase of old properties for conversion relies on the assistance forthcoming under the 1967 Act, whereby help was given for the purchase of property. The G.L.C., like other authorities, is very largely reimbursed from Government sources on this score, and also by way of the grant aid for conversions. The number of dwellings likely to be converted in Greater London in the coming year is estimated to be about 3,000. The total number requiring conversion and modernisation is nearly 250,000.

Housing, Wandsworth

30.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many houses Wandsworth Borough Council built in 1969; and what measures he is taking to encourage a better performance in 1970.

In 1969 Wandsworth Council placed 1,565 houses into tender, started 1,073 houses and completed 991 houses. It has been urged to do even better, but as with some other inner London boroughs, this will be difficult without more help from the G.L.C. in providing housing land in Outer London to ease decanting problems from clearance areas.

Is it not the case that, now that my right hon. Friend has wisely prevented the G.L.C. from lumbering Wandsworth Borough Council with a lot of run-down housing estates, it will be better able to concentrate its attention on new housing?

Certainly we shall wish to see Wandsworth and many other boroughs building more houses. One of the most important factors influencing the position in Inner London is the unavailability of housing land for municipal development to ease the pressure on areas requiring demolition in inner London.

Is the Minister aware that more than three times more houses were completed by the Wandsworth Borough Council in 1969, the first full year of Conservative control, than were completed in 1967, the last full year of Labour control?

The hon. Gentleman is misinterpreting my answers. I have criticised not Wandsworth but the G.L.C. for not making land available in Outer London by purchase to assist Wands-worth and other boroughs.

I will answer the specific point. Completions achieved in the first full year of Conservative rule, as in any other borough, depended on starts being made by the Conservatives' predecessors.

On a point or order. Throughout all the questions on housing concerning the London boroughs there were no supplementary questions, with one exception, put by Conservative hon. Members. The unwholesome and embarrassing burden has been left to the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Rossi). Is that fair on him, Mr. Speaker?

Further to that point of order, which was not a point of order, may I now rise on a point of order? It will be within the recollection of this House that the last Speaker said that anyone who raised a bogus point of order was cheating. What sanction have you, Mr. Speaker? Can you debar that human gargoyle from asking any questions?

House Building Programme

32.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will now state the outcome of his consideration of measures to restore the house building programme.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement I made in the House on 18th March. Also I issued a circular yesterday to local authorities explaining what in my view is the purpose of local authority lending; namely to meet housing needs or to further public policies, which would not otherwise be provided for. It also sets out the method of allocating quotas among local authorities for the current financial year.

While appreciating that action, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he will look again at two emergency measures—the use of the existing compulsory powers against local authorities which are deliberately cutting down their house building programme, and, secondly, permitting banks to make priority loans to house builders, which they are not at present allowed to do?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his suggestions. As to the compulsory powers, this is rather a slow process and I am anxious to make much more rapid progress than would be possible through this means. It is necessary that local housing authorities should have much greater determination than they have now. There are authorities like Birmingham, Sheffield and Newham which are managing to build, and there seems to be no reason why other local authorities should not do just as well. On the second question, this is a matter of which the Chancellor will no doubt take note, but it is probably true that at the moment the difficulty facing the builders is not so much in getting credit as in the high interest rates they have to pay if they get it.

Why does the right hon. Gentleman concentrate so much on local authority housing when it is a fact that there is a severe shortfall in the private sector? Although he said that he would mention these things to the Chancellor, does he not have some shots in his locker to get private enterprise going?

The hon. Gentleman must not have heard the answer I gave to my hon. Friend. He must have been absent from the House on 18th March too. If he will look at HANSARD for that day he will find the very positive measures which the Government announced to help the private sector.

Home Owners (Change Of Residence)

33.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will estimate the approximate proportion of home-owners who changed their residence during 1969, and the average cost of the legal fees, including conveyancing, which they incurred.

No information is yet available about 1969. In 1968 about 6 per cent. of home-owners changed their residence. Cost of legal fees depends on the house price, whether or not title is registered, and the nature of the mortgage. So a reliable average cost cannot be given. But a representative example for a mortgagee who sold one house and bought another would be about £140, assuming registered title, building society mortgage, and an average price for a house bought through a building society.

Would my hon. Friend not agree that the Prices and Incomes Board has twice shown that the average level of conveyancing fees is far too high? Is it not time, particularly in the light of the recent "Which?" report which showed that certain charges were being imposed which were not even justified, for the Government to take urgent action to relieve this burden on the home-owner?

I certainly sympathise with the objectives which my hon. Friend is seeking to achieve. As he will be aware, this matter is being considered through the offices of the Lord Chancellor and I hope that there will be some action soon.

Tenants (Change Of Residence)

34.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will estimate the approximate proportion of tenants in privately and publicly rented accommodation, respectively, who change their residence in 1969; and what proposals he has to facilitate such movements.

No figures are available for 1969, but in 1968 it is estimated that about one-sixth of the households in privately rented accommodation moved house and about one-sixteenth of those in publicly rented accommodation. The large addition to the national housing stock achieved under the present Administration, and the continued development of the new and expanded towns, is already facilitating greater freedom of choice which will increase mobility, as shortages continue to be eradicated.

Would my hon. Friend not agree that many council tenants are unable to move about perhaps as freely as they would wish because of the present council procedures? Could he make some statement about the extent to which his investigations into the use of the computer for facilitating transfers and exchanges have progressed?

The actual organisation of exchanges is not something which we in the Ministry undertake. What we have undertaken to do when we meet the local authority associations to discuss the report in a little while from now is to discuss the possibility of a national exchange bureau facility together with the many other recommendations in the Cullingworth Report.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in Greater London, and I believe other parts of the country, it is practically impossible for a local authority tenant to move from one borough into another? Will he consider introducing legislation placing a duty on local authorities to maintain a register of tenants wishing to transfer to other areas so that it would be possible for them to inspect this at a local government office if they wished to move?

There is no specific statutory duty on local authorities to maintain such a register. In London there is a statutory requirement to maintain a general register for London made up of information received from the boroughs. It seems that there is no reason why the kind of suggestion which the hon. Gentleman has made, which is in sympathy with remarks from this side of the House, should not be proceeded with by the G.L.C.

Local Government And Regional Planning

Local Government Finance (Green Paper)

20.

asked the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning if he will make a statement about the timing and implementation of the Government's proposals to reform local government finance.

The Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning
(Mr. Anthony Crosland)

The Government's proposals will be set out in the Green Paper which was foreshadowed in the White Paper on the Reform of Local Government in England (Cmnd. 4276). I hope to publish the Green Paper in good time to allow for consultation and public discussion, and then to synchronise the implementation of its proposals with the changes in the structure of local government.

Will that be published before or after the General Election, as the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor promised this just before the 1966 election?

As to the first part of the hon. Member's supplementary question, this no doubt will depend on the date of the General Election, which I cannot forecast to the House today. As to the second part, owing to the unique importance which this Government attach to local government, regional planning, pollution and other matters, I have no predecessor, and never had one.

Regional Planning Councils And Local Planning Authorities

21.

asked the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning what action he has taken to develop co-operation between regional planning councils and local planning authorities to ensure harmonisation of aims and policies.

The planning councils and the local planning authorities in their regions are already in frequent touch with each other. And I want to develop cooperation between them still further. I have already discussed this with the planning council chairmen, and I propose shortly to discuss it with the local authority associations concerned. Moreover, I have, on recent regional visits, held joint meetings with representatives of both the planning councils and the groupings of local planning authorities. I intend to have similar discussions in other regions in the coming months.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the real test in Lancashire in this matter will come in the years ahead if the new central Lancashire town is built? Will he undertake to keep the House informed of attempts to improve this consultation?

Local Government (North-East Essex)

22.

asked the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning what recent representations have been made to him from North-East Essex about the Government's proposals over the Maud Report on Local Government; and what replies he has sent.

A number of authorities in this part of Essex sent comments last autumn on the structure of local government proposed in the Redcliffe-Maud Report. These were taken fully into account before we reached the conclusions set out in the recent White Paper. A general invitation to comment on areas and boundaries was issued just before Easter, and Essex authorities will no doubt be amongst those who will be letting us have their further views.

Is the Secretary of State aware of how much authorities in this area wish to have Colchester as their centre and not Ipswich? Will he state his views about this?

I am aware of the feelings in this part of Essex. No doubt this and other matters can be discussed in the forthcoming boundary consultations.

Ombudsman System

23.

asked the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning if he will now introduce legislation to provide for the appointment of Parliamentary Commissioners to investigate complaints of maladministration in the sphere of local government along the lines recommended in Command Paper No. 4276.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave him on 29th January. Now that the White Paper on Local Government Reorganisation has been published, the next step is to work out the details of the scheme with the local authority associations. Consultations for this purpose will start shortly. —[Vol. 794, c. 414.]

Does not my right hon. Friend think that some form of ombudsman in local government is becoming ever more necessary, particularly as so many local authorities have fallen under the control of the Conservative Party? Will he consider implementation of this matter as one of urgency?

I agree that the need is becoming more urgent, no doubt among other reasons for the reasons my hon. Friend has given. We propose to push on with consultations as rapidly as we can.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the blatant electioneering that has gone on during the whole of this Question Time is a complete waste of time—that it has wasted the time of those who prepared the Answers and those who have had to listen? Will he improve the standard and be more objective?

Perhaps that is a matter for you, Mr. Speaker, rather than for me. All I can say is that the standards of questions and answers, particularly of answers, has been consistently higher than the standard of the party political broadcast given last night.

Prime Minister Of Italy (Visit)

Q1.

asked the Prime Minister if he will invite the Italian Prime Minister to visit Great Britain.

In view of the increasing strength of the Italian Communist Party can the right hon. Gentleman say, without perhaps referring to my slightly hypothetical Question, how he sees his aim of political unification with Europe if the Italian Communist Party should gain power in Italy after the June elections?

The Italian Communist Party is a problem for the Italian people to deal with and not for ourselves. I have nothing to add to what I have previously said about political unity in Europe.

Nassau Agreement

Q2.

asked the Prime Minister which clauses of the Nassau Agreement, Command Paper No. 1915, he informed President Johnson he reserved the right to renegotiate without any time limit.

As I made clear in reply to supplementary questions by the noble Lord the Member for Hertford (Lord Balniel) and my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele) on 19th May, 1966, the issue is that of independent use of the deterrent. —[Vol. 728, c. 1547-8.]

Is not the central fact about the nuclear deterrent that the Government have reversed their previous policy? Is it really too difficult for the Prime Minister to say so?

The Government have not in any way reversed their previous policy—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I dealt with this question very fully as early as December, 1964, on the question of the so-called deterrent. In the Questions to which I referred and which the hon. Gentleman will no doubt study, he will see that the situation then was what it is now.

As my right hon. Friend has not changed his policy in this matter, will he say when he expects to open discussions with the President as to precisely when renegotiation shall take place?

I made clear in the Answer which I have quoted that this was a matter of when there was a truly collective deterrent in N.A.T.O. That will be the time for the negotiations.

If the situation was the same then as it is now, and is now as it was then, is it not a fact that we can resume the use of our Polaris submarines if there were a case of dire national emergency and we wished to do so?

The right hon. Gentleman was away when that was dealt with by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, in a statement which was half-quoted by the Leader of the Opposition, although he failed to quote the rest of the sentence and therefore gave a misleading impression. It has been very fully dealt with by my right hon. Friend and the right hon. Gentleman can study what he said.

Taxation And Benefits (Departmental Responsibility)

Q4.

asked the Prime Minister if he will take steps to amalgamate the Departments of the Inland Revenue responsible for the direct taxation of individuals with the departments of the Ministry of Health and Social Security responsible for the payment of direct benefits to individuals.

I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. Member on my behalf by my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary on 1st April, 1969.—[Vol. 781, c. 233.]

Does the right hon. Gentleman recall the Labour Party's election pledge to seek ways of integrating tax allowances and cash benefits payable through National Insurance? Is this a pledge that the Government intend to redeem? Is he aware that while the two Departments continue to operate in the old-fashioned way it is obvious that the Government are failing to achieve social justice or to eliminate poverty?

Everyone appreciates the hon. Gentleman's interest in this subject and the most distinguished contribution made to it some years ago by another member of his family. He will be aware of the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) who was very keen on the same idea some years ago when he was in charge of these matters. The conclusion reached by the Government at that time was that there is a case for this, and that when computerisation has gone a good deal further, in a year or two, it can be considered then. We examined it thoroughly but it is not possible to do it in a useful or meaningful way now.

European Economic Community

Q5.

asked the Prime Minister, what further consultations he has had with other heads of Governments regarding the application to join the European Economic Community.

I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply on 17th March to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. Peter Archer). I am looking forward to seeing the Swedish Prime Minister later this afternoon.—[Vol. 798, c. 104.]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a number of us who on balance are in favour of joining the Common Market consider that all the facts and all the information should be given, as was done in the Government's White Paper? Is not it arrogant, for example, for the Liberal leader to expect British people to be silent, passive observers on such an important issue for our country?

It is our policy to give all the available information, and that is what we tried to do in the White Paper which the House debated. I said on that occasion that, as the negotiations proceeded, we would ensure that the House was kept fully informed of all facts which were necessary to enable the House and the public to make up their minds on this matter.

Does the Prime Minister agree that it would be useful to have consultations with the Governments of other countries which may also be applying for membership of E.E.C., particularly on matters on which so far there is no Common Market policy, such as discussions on fishing with the Norwegians?

We are in close touch with the other applicants, including Ireland. We are in touch with E.F.T.A., with the Irish Government and with the neutral countries on all these matters, but I am doubtful whether there would be a case for a collective meeting of the applicants and those others who are primarily concerned, whether in E.F.T.A. or otherwise.

Scotland (Prime Minister's Visit)

Q6.

asked the Prime Minister which areas he proposes to visit when he goes to Scotland on 24th April.

My visit to Scotland which will now take place on 22nd April will be to Oban.

Why is not the right hon. Gentleman including a trip to Dundee on his occasion? Is he afraid that he might have his 1964 pledge on jute jobs thrown in his teeth? If he is, will he consider switching round the texts this time and recommending an increased navy in Dundee and the safety of jute jobs in Chatham?

I would very much like to visit Dundee. I am having difficulty in tracing the speech in 1964 in Dundee. As far as I remember, and I think that I remember correctly, I was not in Dundee in 1964, and I can trace no record of this. If the hon. Gentleman will send me the cutting of my visit, real or mythical, I shall be very glad to look into it.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the previous Conservative Government made changes to the detriment of the protection of the jute industry without the consent of both sides of the industry? The present Government have never done this; every change has been with the consent of both sides of the industry.

Yes, and I also remember that they were trying to de-schedule Dundee, and I denounced that proposal. For a development area it would have been a ridiculous policy. When this was dealt with by the House on 25th February, my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Technology said in relation to the jute quotas which have been troubling the hon. Gentleman that both sides of the industry have acknowledged that the introduction of quotas has had no effect on the employment situation in Dundee.

Northern Ireland

Q7.

asked the Prime Minister if he will now make an official visit to Northern Ireland.

I have nothing to add to my reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Reading (Mr. John Lee) on 5th March.—[Vol. 797, c. 158.]

I rather expected that reply. Is my right hon. Friend aware that the decision of the Inspector-General who called in Scotland Yard to investigate the case of Mr. Samuel Devenney has been welcomed throughout Ireland by those people who are concerned to see that justice is achieved, and that it is by these proper constitutional measures that we can hope for salvation in Northern Ireland?

When I had to face a certain degree of pressure about calling in Scotland Yard, including an all-night sitting—I hope the hon. Lady the Member for Mid-Ulster (Miss Devlin) has recovered—I made it clear that this was a matter to be decided constitutionally by the Government of Northern Ireland and by the Inspector-General of Constabulary. He has now done on his own initiative what it was appropriate for him to do if he so thought fit, and that is to bring in Scotland Yard to help with the inquiry.

I recognise that the House will shortly debate the whole question of Northern Ireland, but I should like to ask for one assurance from the Prime Minister which can be given only by him. The House will be aware of the serious statement which is reported to have been made yesterday by the G.O.C. that the Army may not be allowed to stay in Northern Ireland long enough for the problems to be solved. I do not know whether the G.O.C. is correctly reported. Will the Prime Minister give an assurance to the House that no question of withdrawing the Army has arisen, and that he will adhere to the previous assurances given by the Government that the forces will remain there so long as these problems are being solved. In parenthesis, may I ask him whether it would not be better if these matters were handled by Ministers either here at Westminster or in Northern Ireland?

I have not had a chance of checking whether the G.O.C. was correctly reported, and I shall certainly not lend myself to criticism of the G.O.C. in anything he says or does, having regard to the extremely tense situation with which he has been dealing in this past week, in which he has shown great courage and great judgment.

The right hon. Gentleman is right to put his main question. We have made it clear, and I repeat again, that we shall keep troops there as long as is necessary to fulfil the job which they have to do. The right hon. Gentleman will have noticed that last week we strengthened the number of troops by sending an additional battalion, because of the present situation. It is not our intention to keep troops there on that scale and in that number when the situation quietens down. As my right hon. Friend has made clear, even after the situation has quietened down and security has been fully re-established, with the Ulster Defence Regiment functioning and policing properly, we intend to have some (troops there for a considerable time ahead. But there is no question of taking risks with Northern Ireland security by withdrawing troops so long as there is any reason for not so doing.

Criminal Law (Law Commission's Recommendations)

Q8.

asked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied with the co-ordination between the Home Office and the Law Officers in implementing the recommendations of the Law Commission on matters affecting the criminal law.

Yes, Sir. Four of the Reports of the Law Commission so far published have included proposals for changes in the criminal law. All these proposals have been carefully considered, and most of them have been embodied in legislation.

Have not the Government made considerable progress in revising and bringing up to date the criminal law? Will the Prime Minister confirm that no responsible body—and I do not include the Opposition in that statement—has suggested that trespass and public demonstrations should be subject to the rigours of the criminal law, and that the Government have no proposals to introduce legislation to that effect?

In dealing with organised and other forms of crime, the Government have done a great number of things, including strengthening the police force quantitatively and qualitatively—equipment and so on—that were never done before we came into office. It is equally true, as my hon. Friend suggests, that changes in the law can have a great bearing on the crime problem. For example, the fundamental changes in the Gaming Act which were introduced by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, and which led to the danger of a criminal Mafia in this country, is one of the most important legislative changes in the matter of crime.

We have been considering the law of trespass for many months. The Government and the police have never been happy about being involved in the criminal or any other sense in trespass matters, particularly in cases affecting landlord and tenant.

In view of what the Prime Minister has said and claims, will he explain why the number of crimes committed goes on increasing every year?

I agree with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary that this should not be a matter for interparty argument—[Interruption.] It has been stirred up as a political matter by right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Fair enough, if they want to do it. If they want to know the figures which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has in mind, the annual average rate of crime has increased by 5·3 per cent. over the past five years. I give that to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. It increased by an annual average rate of 9·6 per cent. in the previous five years.

In view of the figures for violent crime, will the Prime Minister ask the Law Commission to consider whether it would be a good idea to intimate to criminals that anyone carrying a deadly weapon would be liable to have five years added to any sentence which would otherwise be imposed upon him, and so stop the carrying of weapons?

These are matters which the Law Commission, and indeed other inquiries, can continue to study, but my right hon. Friend will remember the Government introducing a Measure which was supported by him and which considerably increased the penalties for the carrying of guns. I think this was about three years ago. Penalties were increased to truly penal proportions, and quite rightly so.

Although I accept that one does not want to make a grievous social problem of this kind a football of party politics—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—do not the figures which the right hon. Gentleman has repeated, showing a consistent rise year by year in the total of professional crime in this country of a serious character, constitute a serious social problem? Is it not therefore inevitable that Parliament should interest itself in this matter as of the highest priority? Would not any party on either side of the House which did not do so be failing in its responsibility?

Yes, Sir, the figures are grave and have been for many years. I am sure the right hon. and learned Gentleman will continue to resist the temptations which he made clear. It is right that all parties in this House should discuss this matter, but I find that he is more willing to discuss them outside the House than inside the House. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman reads some of his recent pronouncements—and I have even heard some of them on television—including incriminating me in the activities of the train robbers, who I think were even caught under the right hon. Gentleman, and in the activities of a number of other criminals who practised under the right hon. Gentleman and, as it happens, were caught under us, perhaps he would feel that he was making this rather too much of a party football. He must not be surprised when we boot the ball back to the other end.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) has no status in a matter of this sort, since only recently in the courts he defended a gaming club which because of its reputation failed to obtain a licence? Is that not conducing to crime?

It is not for me to comment on the professional activities of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. It is sometimes suggested that lawyers take briefs they do not believe in wholeheartedly. I do not know if that is true, but certainly what lawyers do is to be dissociated from their position as Members of Parliament and as shadow spokesmen. The position of the right hon. and learned Gentleman as shadow spokesman helps a little to crystallise this issue of law and order since the public will have to decide whether it wants my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary or the right hon. and learned Gentleman.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have had a number of distinguished clients in the courts, including the right hon. Gentleman, and that I was extremely proud to appear for him? May I return to the subject by asking him whether he is aware that the only thing I have criticised about the right hon. Gentleman is that a certain degree of complacency seemed to creep into his Nottingham speech.

On the first point, may I say that I was proud to be represented by the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I was in no doubt about his sincerity in accepting that brief, but then I am not a gaming club. The right hon. and learned Gentleman in his concern with law and order will agree with what I said earlier that we were right to correct the activities of the gaming fraternity who had been let loose, and a lot of dangerous people were trying to get into this country under legislation of right hon. Gentlemen opposite. With regard to his comments about complacency in my Nottingham speech, he obviously did not read the whole speech, and certainly did not quote the relevant parts. Nor has he mentioned another speech that I made a little later on the subject of law and order. But since the burden of his remarks was related to my responsibility for the train robbers, may I say that I was not a bit complacent about the train robbers.

Order. I am grateful to the House for advice. Mr. Edward Short. Statement.

On a point of order. We have just had an exchange across the House between two right hon. Gentlemen which is obviously dangerous to Parliament unless we can have a Ruling from the Chair.

I should have thought that it was against the procedures of the House—and I should like to know whether Erskine May has pronounced on it—to have an exchange where the private professional operations of a Member are dragged in as part of a political argument in this House.

If the exchange to which we have just listened is allowed to pass without an official Ruling, I do not see how a practising barrister can make any contribution in this House—[Interruption]—or, for that matter, a trade union official who operates in the same way.

Could there be a Ruling from the Chair, Sir, to make it quite clear that such an exchange to which we have just listened is unparliamentary and ought not to be entered into?

I listened very carefully to what passed between the two right hon. Gentlemen, but I thought that it was good-natured badinage between the two.

On a point of order. Would you be good enough, Mr. Speaker, to say, as the Prime Minister was not here yesterday, whether your strictures on the length of Answers apply to answers which are not answers?

Order. The strictures I made were couched in very broad terms. They could apply to any hon. or right hon. Gentlemen in the House.

On a point of order. In view of the fact that the hon. Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) is now in his place, and since he had down an interesting Question No. Q3 earlier, would it not be in order for that Question to be asked and answered now?

On a point of order. We continue in the House to get this cheating on the other side. [Interruption.] When have I raised a point of order that was not a point of order, you great, ugly brute?

Order. I must remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman that I am neither great nor ugly.

I apologise, Mr. Speaker, if that was thought to be a reflection on the Chair. But we look at these animals on the other side of the House day in and day out. We cannot particularise.

My point of order is quite simple, short and fair. Within the last 20 minutes we have had one moron, the right hon. Gentleman—if I may say so; he is not right and he is not honourable. [HON. MEMBERS: "Which one?"] Now we have another one.

Mr. Speaker, I will withdraw that.

Within the space of 10 minutes we had another one, with spectacles on his kisser to try to make himself look intelligent, who raised another point of order which was not a point of order. When, Mr. Speaker, will you regard this as cheating? [Interruption.] I am not raising a point of order. I am raising a point of order on points of order which are not points of order.

Order. Points of order on points which are not points of order are not points of order.

On a much more serious point of order. Is it not clear that the interchanges between the Front Benches deprive Question Time to the Prime Minister of its usefulness by blotting out a number of Questions which might have been asked?

It is in order for there to be interchanges between the Front Benches during Question Time. That is the simple answer to the hon. and learned Gentleman's point of order.

National Libraries Committee (Report)

3.40 p.m.

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement about the action which the Government have decided to take on the Report of the National Libraries Committee.

The Government have decided to accept in principle the main recommendation of the National Libraries Committee, namely, that a national libraries authority should be established, to take over in due course the administration of the present British Museum Library and National Reference Library of Science and Invention and other institutions.

Further consideration is being given to the title, structure, scope and responsibilities of this organisation and to a number of other issues raised in the Committee's report. These will form the subject matter of a White Paper to be issued after further consultation as a preliminary to legislation.

Meanwhile, in the light of the Committee's recommendations on the siting of the British Museum Library and the National Reference Library of Science and Invention, and taking account of the latest technical developments in the storage of books a new preliminary assessment has been made of the possibility of meeting the needs of both libraries on a smaller area of the Bloomsbury site than was previously envisaged for the British Museum Library alone.

This gives grounds for hope that it might prove possible to meet the needs of both libraries, while providing considerably more housing on the site than was included in the earlier plan, preserving all the main listed buildings including the whole of the west side of Bloomsbury Square, and removing the need for a further site elsewhere in Central London for the National Reference Library of Science and Invention.

In view of the results of this preliminary assessment, the Government have decided to explore further the feasibility of a solution on these lines, in consultation with the planning authorities concerned. They will regard the provision of a new building for the National Reference Library of Science and Invention as having first priority in these fuller studies. In reaching their final conclusion they will, of course, pay full regard to the requirements of the users of both libraries.

The Government appreciate the importance of having the Patent Office within easy walking distance of the combined libraries and are considering possible sites for the purpose.

Is the Minister aware that we welcome his decision to accept the main recommendations of Dainton to set up a national libraries authority? May I ask him two questions?

First, will the consultations to which he has referred include consultations with the trustees of the British Museum and a wide range of library opinion about the other recommendations of Dainton?

Secondly, would it be correct to conclude from the rather diffuse second part of his statement that the Bloomsbury site is now fairly certain to be chosen for the new buildings, subject only to confirmation that it is technically possible?

The answer to the first of the hon. Lady's questions is, Yes, Sir. The answer to her second question is that we are now carrying out a feasibility study on the site. I am hopeful that both libraries, with a considerable amount of additional housing, can be provided on it.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that tens of thousands of university staff and research workers who use the British Museum Library annually will be delighted that he has now agreed to reconsider his earlier decision and allow this building to be erected on what may be a slightly smaller—though that is not so important—portion of the Bloomsbury site adjacent to the British Museum?

Does the right hon. Gentleman's reference to taking advantage of the latest technical developments mean that consideration will be given to the computerisation of the indices in separate libraries which may be linked, on the lines of the system being developed in the United States at present? Would he even consider possible computer links between the libraries of this country and those of the United States and other countries in due course?

Without committing myself to the last part of that question, this is the kind of technical development to which I was referring and which will make it possible to erect both libraries on a smaller site.

Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that his acceptance of this report will not lead to a greater concentration of library resources in the Metropolis than there is at present?

Yes, but it is essential that this very important national complex of libraries should be assembled on one site in Central London.

While welcoming this belated statement, 10 months after the publication of the report, that the Government are still considering and dis- cussing this matter, can the Minister give any date for the publication of the White Paper? Will he bear in mind that, while there is a shortage of shelving space for books, there is also a desperate shortage of space for the bottoms of the world's scholars?

I know nothing about the bottoms of the world's scholars, but, dealing with the first part of the question, it is a very complex decision and it has necessarily taken a very long time and a great many consultations.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the trustees of the British Museum welcome the Government's decision to set up a national library authority, presumably on the Bloomsbury site. But, in so far as the British Museum Library will presumably form the nucleus of a large part of the new establishment, will he assure us that the trustees of the British Museum will be consulted between now and the White Paper and the subsequent legislation about the scope and responsibility of the new authority and the physical planning of the new buildings?

I would pay tribute to the help that I have had from the trustees of the British Museum. I have had very close consultations with them. Certainly, I give the assurance that, between this statement and the White Paper and between the White Paper and the legislation, there will be the closest consultation with the museum authorities.

In preparing the White Paper, will the Minister give full weight to the anxieties of those in the library service who feel that the Dainton proposals rather favour the science subjects at the expense of the arts and the humanities?

Is my right hon. Friend aware that one of the great problems confronting would-be readers is the inadequacy of staff and that it is a great problem for such readers to get out books with reasonable celerity? Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of the indices of the British Museum Library are wildly out of date and that one section published as lately as four years ago includes documents which were burned in the blitz?

I agree that this matter is very urgent. That is why I have made my statement today. We hope to publish a White Paper this summer.

Is the Minister aware that his decision will be specially welcomed by the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee which, two years ago, issued a report on the collection, dissemination and storage of scientific and technological information? This matter is urgent. Can he say what proposals he has for accelerating information services in respect of science, technology and industry under the auspices of the body which he is about to set up?

As soon as the legislation has been passed, which I hope will be in 1971, the national libraries authority—though I hope that we will not call it that, but will find a better name—will be set up and will get down to this kind of job.

Voluntary Euthanasia

3.52 p.m.

I beg to move,

That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make lawful the administration of euthanasia at the request of the recipient.
This matter has already been discussed on three occasions in another place. The last was in 1969, when the noble Lord, Lord Raglan's Bill was defeated on Second Reading by 61 votes to 40. It seems to me that at this point in history it is appropriate that the subject should now be discussed here and that legislation should be introduced changing the present statutory situation. My argument rests on the contention that the choice of life or death should always be with the individual concerned, and that the things that happen to him should be in accordance with his values and not the values of others.

At the moment, of course, the choice is with the doctors who always deal with their patients in the very best way possible, but always in accordance with their own values. It became clear, in the debate in another place, that doctors fall broadly into three groups. The first was described by the noble Lord, Lord Platt, when he said that a certain amount of euthanasia was already practised. He gave as an example a man who was suffering from terrible cancer and who contracted pneumonia, but to whom antibiotics were not administered because it was thought better he should die rather than continue to live.

The second group of doctors are those, broadly speaking, who do
"not strive Officiously to keep alive"
the patient, and who act in terms of what they consider to be their own humane values. The third group are those who think that life has an absolute value and that in no circumstances must the flame be extinguished, even in circumstances in which there is no consciousness, no personality, just a living organic shell and nothing else. It seems to me entirely wrong that an individual, whether he favours euthanasia or is opposed to it, should not have his choice prevail over the doctors who are going to care for him. In terms of individual liberty, the choice should always be with the individual. It should be his choice and if he cannot act for himself he should be able to say how he wishes to be treated.

Since 1961, in this country a man has had a right to take his own life when he is able to do so. This is clearly recognised. Given the developments that have taken place in medical science and the possibility of keeping people alive in circumstances that would not have been possible in the past, it seems to me that one should be able to speak with one's own voice, on the basis of one's own values, to say how one wishes to be treated in certain circumstances.

For example, if I am motoring to this House, and am involved in a motor accident and I suffer irreparable brain damage, I do not wish to be kept alive. I wish to be eased gently and comfortably out of life; and I would hope to be cared for by a doctor who shared these values. But at the moment I run the chance of being cared for by one who has absolute values. Similarly, anybody who has this absolute value runs the chance of being cared for by one of these doctors who takes a different view.

I suggest to the House that we have arrived at a moment in time when statutory legislation is necessary to ensure that the individual can exercise his own effective choice. How can this be done? I suggest that it can be done by an individual declaration which can be in favour of voluntary euthanasia, or can be against it; and that such a statement should accompany a man's or woman's medical record.

I take as a definition of euthanasia that given by the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, who defined it as the termination of life at the request of the individual for the purpose of avoiding unnecessary suffering in the last extremity. I believe that the kind of form that such a declaration should take, although I am not suggesting that this wording is final, is that proposed in the noble Lord, Lord Raglan's Bill, namely:
"I declare that I subscribe to the code set out under the following articles:—
If I should at any time suffer from a serious physical illness or impairment reasonably thought in my case to be incurable and expected to cause me severe distress or render me incapable of rational existence, I request the administration of euthanasia at a time or in circumstances to be indicated or specified by me or, if it is apparent that I have become incapable of giving directions, at the discretion of the physician in charge of my case.
In the event of my suffering from any of the conditions specified above, I request that no active steps should be taken, and in particular that no resuscitatory techniques should be used, to prolong my life or restore me to consciousness.
This declaration is to remain in force unless I revoke it…"
Of course, nobody should sign such a declaration unless he wants to and unless it is in accord with his own values; and such a declaration, if it accompanied his medical records, would have to be renewed periodically; or similarly, there might be a central registry. But the important point is that one should be treated in accordance with one's own values. One should act as an adult in a civilised society.

In a leading article, The Times this morning suggested that it was better to leave it to the humane values of the doctors. I suggest that this is a paternalistic argument. It means that if one is lucky one has someone who shares one's values and if one is unlucky one has somebody who is opposed to them. The choice must be with the individual. Legislation is needed at this particular time for this to be achieved.

I hope that the House will give me the opportunity of bringing in my Bill so that the subject can be discussed at much greater length. I regret the brevity of my argument, but, of course, this is the nature of a Ten-Minute Rule Bill. I have simply discussed the principle, the issue of choice, and whether it should be with you, with me, or with others. We should be treated, when we can no longer consciously choose suicide for ourselves, in accordance with our values; one may call it suicide by proxy if one likes.

It seems to me that this is a choice as an adult that I should be able to make and I hope that sufficient of my fellow hon. Members will share my view and give me leave to introduce the Bill.

3.58 p.m.

The subject of this Bill is the question involving life and death. It is, therefore. a very grave and important issue. I would like, first of all, to congratulate the hon. Gentleman the Member for Yarmouth (Dr. H. Gray) on the manner in which he has presented his case. I would like to congratulate him, too, on his courage, which always commends itself to the House. I believe that many hon. Members with majorities less exiguous than his might shrink from espousing such a controversial question in what is likely to be an election year. But it is doubtless because, like myself, he is a doctor of philosophy and so is able to adopt a disinterested attitude.

One great achievement of our age is that we have been enabled to conquer disease and illness and increase life expectancy in a way no other age has seen. I believe this to be a substantial blessing. Life is an uncovenanted gift, and if one can extend its scone and span the possibilities for achievement and happiness are proportionately increased. But as one welcomes the advance of medical science one would be shallow indeed if one did not see the very real and complex problems with which we are faced by this prolonging of life. It is true that more people are exposed today to the chance of terminal illness than in the past. While more will survive, they may well find themselves surviving in a state where their powers and faculties have waned or wasted away.

The response of the supporters of euthanasia to this very real problem is to allow such people as painlessly as possible to be put, at their request, out of their misery. This is a response which I recognise is inspired by compassionate concern and by humanitarian motives. I do not doubt that, but equally I do not doubt that it is neither truly compassionate nor humane to facilitate euthanasia as proposed in the Bill.

My approach to the problem, first of all, as it must be, given my beliefs, is religious. In common with the majority, though not all, who find themselves heirs to the Judao-Christian tradition, I believe that it is ultimately God, not man, who has the disposal of human life. In the last analysis we are the created, not the Creator, and we are bound by the given of our condition.

Having said that, it is necessary to recognise that the hallmark of our humanity is freedom and that the glory of being human is precisely that we can transend the limits of our nature. Between the two poles of our freedom and creaturehood there is inevitably a tension, never sharper than today when an advancing technology is putting greater and greater powers into the hands of man. It is on our resolution of that tension that the future of our humanity depends.

In helping us to resolve the particular tension which the Bill presents, there is one reasonably sure guide, namely, the moral values that are shared in our society that constitute both its inherited and its developing wisdom. It is now proposed to do away with part of that wisdom, namely, the fact that we deny to any individual the right to dispose of the life of another and that life can only be taken in extreme cases at the hands of the State. Many who do not share my theological presuppositions will, I think, subscribe to that view, because to do away with it would deprive our society of an essential protection and expose us to a whole variety of dangers.

The burden of proof that this is not so must lie upon those advocating this fundamental change. They must show that it will not undermine respect for the value of life. They must show that the safeguards they propose are adequate. I do not believe that this burden of proof has been discharged by the proposer today.

The central point of the case put forward by the hon. Member for Yarmouth was that the Bill presented a transfer of choice, that the Bill would take away a right from the doctor and confer it upon the patient. I think that that is a profoundly inadequate analysis of the situation. I believe that the Bill would not transfer a right, but would create an entirely new right of allowing one person to kill another, albeit at that person's request.

It is not true to imply that a doctor at present has a discretion to dispose of life. A doctor, whatever his views, is under a duty to preserve life. The knowledge that that is so is the basis of the patient-doctor relationship. That does not mean that there is a duty to prolong life at any cost. That would be neither good morality nor good medicine. Lord Horder, a very great doctor, once said that the good doctor will know how to distinguish between prolonging life and prolonging the act of dying.

There is surely a clear moral distinction between administering a pain-killing drug in the knowledge that it may or will shorten life and administering a drug with the direct intention to kill. The safeguard of that distinction is contained in the standards of the medical profession, supported by the law. Take away either of those safeguards and the patient and the doctor are exposed to equal danger.

Let us consider the case of old people in particular, whom the Bill sincerely intends to help. What kind of agonising moral pressure could open up to a sick old person if the Bill were to pass into law? It is not only unscrupulous relatives who might create pressure—they would be a minority—but the mental processes of the old person that would do so. He would be asking himself, "Should I cease to be a burden to those who are looking after me? Are they thinking that I am a burden? Should I take this step or should I not?" What then has become of the peaceful, easy death which is held out by the supporters of the Bill?

I believe these to be powerful arguments, but, strong as they are, my most rooted objection to the Bill is that it is a short-cut: it offers a simple solution to problems of the highest complexity. The problems that arise today in our society from the need and desire of those suffering from incurable disease to die in peace and in dignity are much complicated than mere relief from physical pain.

There is an inner misery and loneliness which afflicts such people which needs to be assuaged. What causes more agony to dying people in these conditions than anything else is the sense of being written off when they are, in fact, alive; being treated as dead when they are still living. It is precisely this mentality that I fear the Bill will induce not only in the dying person, but also in relatives and medical attendants.

The final stage of an incurable illness can be a wasteland, but it need not be. It can be a vital period in a person's life reconciling him to life and to death and giving him an interior peace. [Interruption.]This is the experience of people who have looked after the dying. To achieve that needs intense loving and tactful care and co-operation between relations and medical attendants. This painstaking, conscientious, constructive approach to the dying is, I believe, more human and compassionate than the snuffing out pro posed by those who are well-intentioned, but who seem to understand little of the complexities of the needs of those they a are attempting to help.

Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No 13 (Motion for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business) and negatived.

Northern Ireland

4.9 p.m.

Order. May I remind the House that this is a three-hour debate. Many right hon. and hon. Members wish to speak. Speeches should be reasonably brief. Mr. Pounder.

I beg to move, That this House do now adjourn.

While there may be occasions when emotional oratory and histrionics may be appropriate, the subject that we are discussing today—the current situation in Northern Ireland—is not the occasion, in my view, for such dangerous exercises. The views involved are much too grave. Indeed, since this emergency debate was granted by you, Mr. Speaker, yesterday, there have been two further explosions in Belfast. Both properties damaged are located in my constituency.

Frequently reference is made in this House to the effect which our words may have on the general public. Often the effect is at best minimal, but there are exceptions, and so far as Northern Ireland is concerned real attention will be paid to our deliberations here this afternoon. Make absolutely no mistake on that score. It is, therefore, incumbent upon every hon. Member who participates in this debate to show the utmost restraint and moderation of tone and great importance will be attached to the words from the Government Front Bench later in the debate. In anticipation of their contribution, may I thank them very much for being here.

It would be a great mistake for anyone to dismiss the street violence of recent days as being merely the actions of a youthful hooligan element. While these young persons have been the activists—and it is worth noting that one of those arrested did not come from Belfast not even from Northern Ireland, but from County Longford, in the middle of the Irish Republic—nevertheless, it is the figures in the background who are manœuvring, manipulating, inflaming and encouraging these hooligans, who must be winkled out.

Until this is done there can be no real grounds for optimism of the restoration of peace in the Province. It is the stock-in-trade of the anarchist revolutionary to give the screw another vicious twist at periodic intervals just when temperatures appear to be cooling and each turn of the screw brings closer the attainment of breaking point. This is the pattern which would appear to be currently and tragically developing in Northern Ireland.

General Freeland, the General Officer Commanding Northern Ireland, in his Press conference in Belfast, on Friday last, rightly pointed to the existence of sinister elements at work in Northern Ireland and his views expressed on that occasion were very forcibly underscored by a feature article which appear in The Times today, which I am sure has been read by many hon. Members. It is a sobering assessment and it states:
"Our investigations in Belfast suggest a pattern of deliberate intent behind last week's rioting in the Roman Catholic estate of Ballymurphy and the chain of bomb explosions that has followed.… Our inquiry showed that the initiative has been seized by a group representing the rejuvenated old guard of the Irish Republican Army. They believe that their traditional objective of securing a united Ireland through the destruction of the Protestant dominated North has gained a new credibility in the climate of violence created by the rioting last summer. They are eager to cash in on it."
So said The Times and to further its aim it is admitted in that article by a spokesman for the I.R.A. that it supports the Civil Rights Movement on the ground that for physical force to succeed it is necessary first to engage in social agitation and that this would be followed by physical force.

Even Mr. Edward McAteer, the Nationalist leader, acknowledges the I.R.A.'s involvement in the Civil Rights Movement. Against this background, it ill behoves those hon. Members who, during our deliberations before Christmas on the Ulster Defence Regiment Bill, claimed, as they did, that there was no need for the new regiment and that the spectre of the I.R.A. was a figment of Unionist imagination. I hope that they will now have the good grace to recognise that they misread the situation.

The hon. Gentleman surprises me and no doubt many others in the House by saying that Mr. McAteer has said that the I.R.A. is engaged in this campaign. Would the hon. Gentleman please quote?

I shall certainly quote from page 10, c. 5, of The Times, which states:

"Mr. Edward McAteer, the veteran Nationalist leader, told us that the civil rights movement had been eclipsed by rekindled republicanism."
That, in the context of the whole tone of the article of the rejuvenated I.R.A., leads one only to the conclusion of the analogy I have sought to show. I have done so in good faith believing that article to be a fair comment; and the interpretation aspect is equally fair. If I have inadvertently appeared to put words in his mouth which should not reasonably have been done, I am certainly prepared to withdraw them, but I do not think that in the context in which they appeared my interpretation is necessarily unfair.

Another point—and I do not wish to belabour this question of the extent to which the Civil Rights Movement has been infiltrated by political outsiders—it is only fair to draw attention to the comment of Mrs. Edwina Stewart, a vice-chairman of the Northern Ireland Communist Party, who, at that party's recent conference, said that it was important that Communist Party members continued to play a leading rôle in the Civil Rights Movement.

A feature of recent debates on Northern Ireland in this House has been a tendency to engage in a series of recriminations. I hope, that today's debate will mark a departure from this sterile form of argument. [HON. MEMBERS: "0h."] If this House has a genuine concern for Northern Ireland, as I believe it has, then I hope that that concern will be manifest in constructive comment.

I wonder whether I may seek to anticipate a point which I am fairly sure will be raised by hon. Members opposite—the idea which I know has been put forward both by the Press and television in recent days, that if there was a complete ban on processions for a lengthy period then this would have a defusing effect on the current tension. I do not think that there is any validity in that argument. For very many years parades at certain specified times of the year have been a traditional feature of Ulster life.

These parades have almost without exception passed off without any untoward incident. I feel, therefore, that this Easter could have been no exception had certain elements not decided to exploit the occasion for fermenting trouble—for turning the screw of tension a little tighter. Where there is a determination to cause trouble, an excuse can easily be found and to ban parades would be merely an opiate of illusion.

Now I turn to the Army's activities in Northern Ireland. It would be easy to comment adversely on the conduct on certain occasions of some of the soldiers in Belfast in the months since last August. It would be easy to criticise some of the seemingly strange negotiating procedures which were adopted particularly in No-go land in Belfast, but whatever the recrimination in which one could indulge that does not obscure two facts of which we must never lose sight—we must focus attention on the present and the future and not on the past and, over-riding all else, we must realise and acknowledge that the presence of the Army has prevented a possible holocaust for which we must be and are deeply grateful.

The Army units in Ulster have found themselves in a very unenviable situation for which they could not have been expected to be fully prepared. Internal security is not a rôle normally associated with the Army. It is of paramount importance that the Army be seen to be utt