asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many administrative officers and how many field officers were on the strength of National Agricultural Advisory Services in June, 1970, and how many of each category are currently on the strength of the Agricultural Development and Advisory Service.

On 1st July, 1970, in the separate services now embodied in A.D.A.S., there were 489 officers with substantial managerial responsibility out of a total staff of 5,391. The corresponding figures for 1st October, 1971, were 487 and 5,393. Within the total there has been a significant reduction in staff in the agricultural advisory service which has been offset by increases in supporting staff required for brucellosis work. Many of the managerial staff also undertake some field duties.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, in spite of the much-heralded claims that the Minister would slash the staff available to his Department, these figures show that he has not done so but that he has succeeded in shattering the morale of one of the finest agricultural advisory services in the world?

I do not accept that. The hon. Gentleman cannot have heard my answer, in which I said that there had been a significant reduction in staff in the advisory service, which has been offset by the need for staff for brucellosis work.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what the increase has been in the level of food prices from 18th June, 1970, to the latest available date.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food by how much food has risen in cost since June, 1970.

Between 16th June, 1970, and 19th October, 1971, the latest date for which information is available, the Food Index rose by 11·6 per cent.

Is the Minister aware that these figures are nothing short of a total disgrace and that, unlike Ministers and Members of Parliament, whose percentage increases can be calculated in thousands of pounds, the percentage increases of millions of pensioners and working-class people on low incomes are calculated in shillings? How can they afford to pay for this massive price increase?

The hon. Gentleman always has a Question down to me about this. He will know, from his memory of the last Question he put down, that the figure has not changed.

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider future price increase arising out of the point which I have put to him before—namely, metrication? Is he aware that, according to the Metrication Board, metrication in the food-producing industry is likely to be completed by 1975, yet in his last answer to me he said that it was a long way off? In view of what happened over decimalisation, does he not think that closer controls are necessary?

The hon. Member's knowledge of metrication in the food-producing industry being completed by 1975 is certainly not the information that I have—and is certainly not correct.

What does my right hon. Friend forecast the prices of seasonal foods, such as turkeys and plum puddings, will be this Christmas compared with last?

The price of turkeys may be up slightly, but not much, and the price of chickens will certainly be down—and there is a plentiful supply of both.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what increase in retail food prices has occurred during the 17 months from July, 1970, to November, 1971, inclusive, or the nearest convenient dates; and whether the levelling out of food prices from July to September is continuing.

Between 21st July, 1970, and 19th October, 1971, the latest date for which information is available, the Food Index rose by 11·2 per cent. Short-term trends are considerably affected by the incidence of seasonal factors but, between 20th July, 1971, and 19th October, 1971, the Food Index fell by 0·3 per cent.

But do not all these figures confirm my suggestion to my right hon. Friend a few weeks ago—since his last answer was 11·6 per cent., his answer to Question No. 3 today was also 11·6 per cent. and this answer is 11·2 per cent.—that we are entering a period of relative stability in retail food prices, compared with the disastrous hangover from Labour?

There are some signs in support of my hon. Friend's view, including the fact that in the last three months the non-seasonal foods index has risen by only 1·4 per cent., which is a considerable improvement on recent months.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the levelling out of food prices due to seasonal factors between June and October of this year was similar to that which occurred during the same period of last year, but that that was followed by sharp increases in the rest of the year? By how much does he hope to see the rate of increase in food prices reduced in the period June, 1971, to June, 1972, compared with the 12 per cent. by which food prices rose in the previous 12 months?

I do not intend to forecast the future and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not expect me to do so. Seasonal food prices have not dropped as much this year as they did last year by quite a considerable amount, and non-seasonal food prices have not been rising at anything like the rate of rise of recent months. There is also the factor that between July and October the index of food items mainly manufactured in the United Kingdom, which is over 40 per cent. of the total in the general index, rose by only 0·6 per cent.

By how much per pound has butter gone up recently? Does my right hon. Friend agree that probably the main factor for this rise has been the drought in Australia and New Zealand, which shows how unwise it is to rely too much on overseas supplies and the need to produce more of these products at home?

I certainly agree that we should be producing more of these products at home, and the sooner we can get our milk production up the better I shall like it. The price of butter has risen since June, 1970, by about 80 per cent., and that has been due entirely to factors beyond our control, such as drought in the Southern Hemisphere and the shortage of supplies in the rest of the world. Of the total increase in the index of food prices since the General Election in 1970, about one-fifth of it has been due to increases in the prices of dairy products.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the observations of his hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro), observations which make him the biggest Walter Mitty of the year? There can be no question of prices levelling off when one is talking in terms of increases of 11·6 per cent., which the right hon. Gentleman gave in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner). What is likely to be the subsequent price rises when we have to take into account value-added tax, import levies and entry into the E.E.C.?

I have never thought of my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) as a Walter Mitty character, and what my hon. Friend said is perfectly correct.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food by what percentage food prices have risen in the last full 12-month period for which figures are available.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on movements in food prices during the past year.

Between 20th October, 1970, and 19th October, 1971, the latest date for which information is available, the food index rose by 11·7 per cent.

Why does not the Minister give up and go home?

The hon. Gentleman got a headline the last time I answered Questions. I hope he does not get one today.

is the right hon. Gentleman aware that what angers the housewife is not only the swingeing increase in food prices but the widespread impression that the Minister does not care? Has he seen the highly specific Press reports that there will be a further increase of 7 per cent. next year? Would he care to comment on those reports?

No, and, as I said, I do not intend to forecast the future. However, I can tell the hon. Gentleman and the House that I care every bit as much about this is he does.

Has the C.B.I. initiative on prices had any effect on manufactured food prices?

I think that since the C.B.I. initiative in July we have been seeing a considerable improvement. Manufactured food prices are up by only 1·4 per cent. over that period, and, as I told the hon. Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. Barnes), mainly manufactured items are up by only 0·6 per cent.

On a point of order. In view of the totally unsatisfactory nature of all the Minister's replies on this subject, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what changes occurred in the cost of food between 15th June, 1971, and the most recent available date.

It should be noted that this is a period of the year when seasonal factors are favourable, but between 15th June, 1971, and 19th October, 1971—the latest date for which information is available—the Food Index fell by 0·3 per cent.

Has my right hon. Friend had his attention drawn to a feature in a group of Essex newspapers in which the same food has been purchased week by week since June, 1971? Is he aware that the average weekly shopping bill shows a drop of 6p in six months? Would he agree that both from the point of view of official statistics and by this practical example at least we can see that the trend is now in the right direction?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his information [Interruption.] I have no doubt that hon. Gentlemen opposite share his pleasure.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with the statement by the Chairman of the Decimalisation Board that decimalisation made no difference to prices?

I am being very careful here. The Board was giving its views, and I stick to mine.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the estimated rise in the price of foodstuffs between November, 1970, and November, 1971.

It is not the practice to speculate about the future level of the Food Index prior to publication which in the case of the mid-November figure will be on 18th December.

Since we have had a good many categories this afternoon, could the Minister give the figures for non-manufactured, non-seasonal food, which is the basis of any shopping basket?

I do not think that I can give that figure without notice.

Over any convenient period.

May I let the hon. Gentleman know by letter?

How can the Minister be so complacent about the whole question of cost-of-living increases when the International Monetary Fund said yesterday that the increase in the cost of living in this country remains higher than in any other industrial country in the world?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, we still have a hangover from something for which he had a certain responsibility.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food why, for purposes of Farm Capital Grant, a rotary milking parlour is treated differently from a traditional herringbone parlour.

The rotary parlour is a machine, and so it is eligible for tax allowances but not for grant. The building which houses the parlour and the services is, however, eligible for grant, and accounts for a substantial part of the total cost.

Would my hon. Friend agree that to distinguish between machinery and buildings in an integral piece of equipment of this kind is somewhat arbitrary? Does not the present system therefore tend to discourage the use of the most modern and efficient equipment?

I agree that we are getting near to no man's land, as it were, between machinery and buildings. A revolving platform driven by a motor is certainly a machine, and the associated fixtures are part of it. However, there is no indication that there is any restraint on people installing this equipment.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will give a progress report on the discussions that are taking place between representatives of the horticultural industry and officials of his Department on the subject of possible Government assistance to those sections of that industry that could be adversely affected as a direct consequence of United Kingdom membership of the European Economic Community.

The exploratory talks which my officials had with the National Farmers' Union before the Parliamentary vote in favour of joining the E.E.C. are continuing.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the genuine apprehension felt not only by growers of apples and pears but by growers of early strawberries, and particularly by those in scattered and isolated rural areas such as the Tamar Valley, where any decline in this industry would have adverse social as well as economic repercussions?

Yes, Sir. I am well aware of the point my hon. Friend makes, particularly about Tamar Valley strawberry growers. It is too early yet to say how the negotiations which we are having with the National Farmers Union will turn out. Some of the problems in areas like the Tamar Valley are not caused by the import of strawberries but by new ways of producing strawberries in other parts of Britain.

If we can get away from the Tamar Valley for a moment—

Why?

—and from the Vale of Evesham, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to note that in Lancashire we have possibly the biggest section of the agricultural industry in Britain under glass and that I am informed by the N.F.U. in Lancashire that if the terms of entry into the E.E.C. are carried out in accordance with the prospective treaty arrangements with the Six, the industry in Lancashire will be completely crippled? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fear of the Lancashire industry of the dire prospects that are likely if the Government's policies in this matter are carried out, fears that have been expressed in letters to me and which I will willingly give the right hon. Gentleman?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will send me the letters—

The right hon. Gentleman already knows about this.

—and I will do my best to give him an answer. However, I do not believe that the defeatist attitude which he and some of his growers are taking is borne out by the attitude of the industry as a whole.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what representations he has received regarding the latest developments in the fisheries negotiations with the European Economic Community.

I received a letter yesterday from the Fisheries Organisation Society Limited, on behalf of the inshore fishermen of England and Wales, emphasising views they had previously expressed to me.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a letter which the Prime Minister is reported to have sent to the Norwegian Prime Minister prior to the last set of negotiations suggests that Her Majesty's Government are more concerned with completing the fisheries negotiations in time to sign the Treaty of Accession than they are about getting the best possible deal for our fishermen? May we be assured that the Government will not accept an agreement on fishery limits which is of temporary duration and will press for a 12-mile limit?

I totally refute the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. We have had constant Questions and answers about this problem—

Not answers, just Questions.

—and the negotiations are still continuing. No decision was reached at Brussels a week ago, and I think it is better to leave it at that.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the growing admiration and respect for the strong and determined efforts which the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the Minister are taking in protecting this country's inshore industry?

If hon. Gentlemen opposite would see the fishermen they would hear exactly the same thing.

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that he is still approaching these negotiations in the manner of a joint approach with Norway, Denmark and the Republic of Ireland? Will Her Majesty's Government continue to press for a 12-mile limit as a matter of principle, if necessary independently of Norway? In other words, if Norway opts out, will Her Majesty's Government continue to press for a 12-mile limit?

Our approach is a joint approach with Norway, Ireland and Denmark and we shall hope to continue in that way. It would be a great mistake to be hypothetical on what may happen if any of these countries should fall out. We hope that that will not be the case.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what changes in policy have taken place recently in the common agricultural policy and what will be the effect of these changes and future trends.

There have been no such changes since the Council decided last March to introduce measures to improve the structure of agriculture, which have yet to be implemented.

Does my right hon. Friend not agree that there are bound to be changes, with four new members coming into the Community, and that we have a part to play in these changes? Does he agree that, in any of these changes, the basic principles of British agriculture, such as the Milk Marketing Board, the hill cow subsidy, and the like, which we hold dear, must be maintained?

Yes.

Is it not a fact that food prices in the Community are going up and that this gives the lie to the confident prediction of the Government's Common Market White Paper that the gap between world food prices and those likely to be encountered in the Community was getting narrower?

No. In fact, exactly the reverse is true. The gap is getting narrower and has been getting narrower since the publication of the White Paper, but much will depend in the next few months on what happens in the Community.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what progress is being made in the negotiations being conducted by his Department in seeking to ensure that the Six accept British standards of hygiene and humanity in the treatment of farm animals.

These matters have not formed part of the present negotiations.

Is the Minister aware of the widespread concern about this matter? Will he not make it clear to the Six that our standards of hygiene and humanity are high and frequently much higher than the standards applying in the Six? Can he give a clear assurance that when harmonisation takes place it will not have an adverse effect on practices currently very satisfactory, or approaching that, in Britain?

As to hygiene, I believe that on many matters the standards in the Community are as high as ours. On animal welfare, there is a convention before the Council of Europe on this matter of intensive rearing and we shall help to draft that, if we join. I certainly hope that we would allow no lessening of the standards we have at present.

As we have had to give way on so many points about the Common Market, could we not make this a test case on the question of humanity and say that we will not go in until they amend their rules to our standards?

Until we see what the convention is, I think that that is a hypothetical question.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that animal welfare conditions in Europe are much more lax than here? Will he make it clear here and now that ours are right and theirs are wrong and, if no change can be brought about in their conditions, will he ensure that there are adequate tariffs to protect British farmers who have to conform to higher standards?

I hope that we shall take possibly a slightly more liberal approach than that.

Will the Minister state clearly that the aim of the Government will be to obtain harmonisation up to the standard of our animal welfare codes and not to be satisfied with less?

I said in my first answer that I was most concerned that we should not allow any lessening of the standards that we have.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what measures he proposes to use to control the level of the United Kingdom pig population during any transitional period before European Economic Community membership.

It is proposed to continue existing measures which form part of the guarantee arrangements for pigs prior to accession and into the transitional period.

Can the hon. Gentleman assure us that the flexible guarantee arrangements for pigs will continue unamended until such time as they can be replaced by equally effective safeguards as part of Community legislation?

The changes in the guarantee are a matter for the next Price Review. We shall adopt the Community system in the first year of membership, and as market prices are increased farmers will increasingly get their return from the market, and deficiency payments will be phased out. The details of this are still to be worked out.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will seek powers to require instructions in regard to adequate thawing and cooking to be printed on the wrappers of frozen food in cases where failure to carry out such measures can lead to health risks.

Most frozen foods involve no greater risks than fresh products, but for frozen chickens and turkeys informative labels on thawing and cooking are helpful. My right hon. Friend and his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services are watching the position. At present, through voluntary action by the trade, the great majority of birds do provide instructions. I hope that this practice will soon become universal without the need to consider using powers available under the Food and Drugs Act.

But since the appropriate Minister has said that frozen poultry is safe only if adequately thawed out and cooked, and since there were 36 samples out of 100 examined by the Consumer Association recently which were found to contain salmonella poisoning organisms, does not the Minister feel that it is not good enough to leave it to a voluntary scheme among producers? Ought he not to exercise his powers to make it a requirement in order to protect the public.

The National Association of Poultry Packers says that 80 per cent. of its members label. In fact, 90 per cent. of turkeys have labels and instructions on them. The Public Health Laboratory Service is doing research on this matter and we expect its report soon.

Can my hon. Friend give a little more detail about the voluntary labelling to which he referred?

If my hon. Friend is referring to the instructions, my information is that some birds give different instructions from others. I suggest to my hon. Friend that he should get hold of a couple and see where their instructions differ.

Can the Minister say how many people have suffered poisoning as a result of eating unlabelled frozen birds in the past 12 months?

There is no evidence of an increase in food poisoning from the failure to thaw out food properly.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is his estimate of the uptake of the new apple grubbing-up grants in the current year.

Judging by the rate of application during the first three months of the new Orchard Grubbing Scheme, application for between 3,000 and 3,500 acres of apple and pear trees may have been received by the end of 1971.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied with this rate of uptake, and does he consider that it will have the desired effect in retaining a reasonable price for the fruit from those orchards that are left?

Already, since 1st September, there have been over 1,600 applications and over 1,100 approvals. This is an encouraging start, and if the pace is maintained—and there is no reason to suppose that it will not be—my right hon. Friend's target will be met.

The Minister mentioned 3,000 to 3,500 acres. Can he say what the cost of that will be and whether it is included in the overall cost to the Government of entry into the Common Market?

The rate of grant is 100 per cent. of the standard grubbing costs. If the hon. Gentleman would like to put down a Question about what that standard rate is, I will reply.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps his Department are taking to promote the consumption of English cheeses in Europe.

I am confident that the English Country Cheese Council and the trade as a whole are alive to the export possibilities. We shall make sure that within an enlarged European Economic Community the trading arrangements, both in the transitional period and later, provide a fair opportunity for the development of our trade in cheese.

While I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he said, is he aware that there is almost total ignorance of the quality of English cheeses, such as Stilton and Leicester, on the Continent, and will he take steps to promote an export drive to make these qualities better known?

My hon. Friend may be encouraged to know that exports of cheese from the United Kingdom were 29 per cent. up in 1970 over 1968. The consumption of cheese in the Community is very high. The Dutch eat twice as much per head as we do, and the French three times as much. The market has tremendous possibilities.

As a Minister who represents a Scottish constituency, will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there are also very good Scottish cheeses and will he ensure that they, too, make a tangible contribution in this regard if, by some misfortune, we do enter the Common Market.

I will undertake to draw the attention of my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland to what the hon. Gentleman said.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will give special help to farmers in brucellosis eradication areas, whose herds have an exceptional incidence of this disease.

My right hon. Friend and I have already agreed with the Farmers' Unions that heavily infected herds may present a special problem and that we will review the position next summer in the light of our experience in the initial areas to see whether herds of this kind need any additional assistance.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that satisfactory and helpful reply, may I ask whether he can say whether assistance to farmers would be retrospective if the Review showed it to be necessary in the light of hardships or difficulties over re-stocking?

I am glad to be able to assure herd owners in the initial areas that if improvements are made in the terms for heavily infected herds as a result of next year's review, they will be applied retrospectively to all such herd owners taking part in the area eradication scheme. I hope that this assurance will remove any doubts those herd owners may have had about coming into the scheme.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on the progress of his efforts to eradicate brucellosis.

Since we introduced the increased incentives last April voluntary accreditation has made excellent progress with nearly 47,000 herds now taking part in the schemes. On 1st November we made a start on our area eradication programme which will be progressively extended as more herds come into the voluntary scheme.

if present progress is maintained, when should the existing eradication scheme be completed?

That would be a rather dangerous prophecy to make. But, being an optimist, I certainly hope that we shall stamp out brucellosis within 10 or 15 years.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is satisfied that the number of drainage schemes being grant-aided by his Department is adequate, in view of the importance attached to this work in the report on soil structure; and if he will make a statement.

New field drainage in England and Wales continues to increase steadily. This is satisfactory and I hope that farmers will continue to take full advantage of the advisory, and financial assistance available from my Department for drainage work.

In view of the considerable backlog of drainage work throughout the country, is my hon. Friend doing enough to bring to the notice of farmers the very favourable rates of grant in operation?

The fact that there are so many applications for grant while the existing supplement is in operation is proof of the fact that farmers are well "clued up" about the importance of getting on with it.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make a statement about meat inspection in this country, in view of the advice given by the British Veterinary Association, details of which are in his possession, that foreign meat is safer than home-killed meat.

I do not accept the Association's view on this. All home-produced red meat in this country has to be examined by properly trained officers of the local authority and I am satisfied that the standards are entirely sufficient to safeguard public health.

While I welcome very much the Minister's statement, may I ask him to confirm that our standards as carried out by the health inspectors are at least as good as if not better than those on the Continent?

Yes, that is our view.

While I agree with what my hon. Friend said, is he aware that only 60 out of the 2,000 slaughterhouses in this country are licensed for the export of meat to the E.E.C.? Would he further agree that there is a long way to go to bring our slaughterhouses up to standard?

With great respect to my hon. Friend, the majority of the failings of slaughterhouses in this country are on details and not on substance. One frequent reason for failing to conform to E.E.C. standards is something such as the separation of pig slaughter lines from others. It is not a question of hygiene.

Will the hon. Gentleman recognise that the assertions of the B.V.A. are part of a long campaign to take over the meat-inspecting functions of the country? Will he also admit that these assertions have done a great deal of harm in damaging the confidence of the general public in the existing service?

I should like to reaffirm with great emphasis that I believe that the job done by the public health inspectorate is absolutely first class. Members of the inspectorate have to pass examinations set by the Royal Society of Health, and we are entirely satisfied with them. I hope that the general public will be reassured by this.

asked the Minister of State for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will initiate discussions with food packers and wholesalers in order to secure the adoption of a standard system of date-stamping perishable foods readily comprehensible by retailers which will enable them to avoid the risk of unwittingly selling stale food.

As my right hon. Friend stated in reply to Questions by the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. Arthur Davidson) and others on 2nd March, 1971, the Food Standards Committee is reviewing the whole question of date marking of food. Evidence has been received from many interested parties, including consumers, food packers and wholesalers.—[Vol. 812; c. 1377 –80.]

Is my hon. Friend aware that retailers, particularly small retailers, are faced with a problem in deciding, or trying to remember, whether stocks came in fresh or with a time lag on them? Will he ensure that proper account is paid to the difficulties experienced by these people?

That is one of the reasons why the Committee is anxious not to hurry through a complex subject.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will, in conjunction with the Department of Social Security, initiate a scheme whereby his Department purchases bread at wholesale prices from the large bakery organisations and distributes this at cost price to all those on social welfare benefits.

No; the Government believe that those receiving social welfare benefits can be helped much more satisfactorily through direct means.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that it has now reached the stage at which eggs, butter, milk, meat, bacon—most of the basic necessities of life, including bread—are becoming so prohibitive in cost that with bread for instance, it is becoming as expensive as caviar and ordinary old-age pensioners cannot afford to buy it? Would he do something to see either that the price of bread is reduced or that the poor, sick and disabled can afford to buy it?

All I an tell the hon. Gentleman is that the real value of the pension this Christmas will be higher than it was after the last pension increase under his Government and certainly higher than at any previous Christmas.

Mr. Crouch, Mr. Money, Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop, Mr. Rankin—

rose—

Question No. 25, Sir.

Order. It is better if hon. Members rise when they call their Questions.

On a point of order—

Order. The hon. Gentleman need have no anxiety. His Question will be called next.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what in pounds per head per annum is the food supply available, on average, for consumption by persons in the United Kingdom; if he is satisfied that it is sufficient; and if he will make a statement.

Details of average food supplies available for consumption by the population of the United Kingdom are given in an article in Trade and Industry dated 15th July, 1971. The nutrient and energy content of these supplies is well above the average needs of the population.

I do not ask for an answer from the paper which the Minister quoted. Is not it a very slick practice for the right hon. Gentleman to quote from a newspaper which he cannot show us to prove his statistics and to use it for the purpose of deceiving a Member—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."]—who has waited for over half an hour for an answer? The right hon. Gentleman could have told me that when I came into the House today. Does he agree that the figures are available, that the source is in his control in the House, and that the figures show—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."]—that fish, meat and butter are all selling at 8s. a pound? Does he believe that the old folk can become very festive when they have to pay those prices for their food at the festive season—

Speech.

Order. Even Nestor occasionally had the closure applied.

On a point of order—

Order. The hon. Gentleman first made a speech and then asked about three supplementary questions. The Minister must now be allowed to answer.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I have your guidance—

Not yet. The Minister must be allowed to answer.

I apologise to the hon. Gentleman if he thinks that I was trying to deceive him. I was afraid that my answer might be as long as his supplementary question. The figures are available in the Library in the publication I mentioned. I will send them to the hon. Gentleman if he would like to have them.

I have got them.

One of the comments made in the paper was that the major manifestation of poor nutrition in this country is more likely to be an excessive energy intake in relation to requirements leading to over-weight in some people.

Mr. Scott-Hopkins.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I shall try to raise the matter before Christmas.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I heard you call my name for a supplementary question before you heard the point of order of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin).

Order. The matter must rest where it now does.

asked the Prime Minister if he will place a copy of his public speech at the Guildhall on 15th November on economic matters in the Library.

I did so on 16th November, Sir.

In that speech the right hon. Gentleman called for a big increase in industrial investment. Will he reconcile that demand with the figures in the latest estimates by the National Institute, which show that there is likely to be a further fall in manufacturing investment next year, when it will be 6½ per cent. less than the appalling figures achieved so far this year? What does the Prime Minister propose to do about that?

I should have thought that that emphasises the importance of what I said at the Guildhall. The latest investment intentions survey suggests that manufacturing investment may begin to rise during 1972.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make an official visit to Houghton-le-Spring.

I have at present no plans to do so.

Does the Prime Minister appreciate that there will be a feeling of great sadness in Houghton-le-Spring when it learns that he has no intention of visiting it? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that he is missing a valuable opportunity to talk to several hundred pensioners living on the doorstep of poverty and several hundred young people who will be denied the opportunity of white collar jobs as a result of the Government's decision not to go ahead with a P.A.Y.E. centre at Washington, which is within five miles of my constituency, which would have provided several hundred jobs in an area of great need?

I had an opportunity to discuss these problems with members of the North-East Development Council when I was in the North East in September. The computer centre was involved in the review of P.A.Y.E. procedures and processes, and the Government have come to the conclusion that we should not be justified in going for the nine regional centres which were previously planned. That accounts for the change in the North East.

Is the Prime Minister aware that an 800,000 sq. ft. site was made available by the Washington Development Corporation for the centre? Will he now investigate the possibility of bringing other Government Departments there to take over the site?

Yes, Sir. That question is already under examination. When we came to office we started a new and complete review of the possibilities of moving Government staffs into other parts of the country, including the North East.

asked the Prime Minister what is the practice of his Administration concerning Ministers' replies to letters from hon. Members.

There has been no change in our practice, which is to consider such letters carefully and to reply as quickly as possible.

Is the Prime Minister aware that it is quite common for hon. Members to wait four or five weeks for a reply? I recently had to wait for two months, in spite of sending several reminders. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that that is a gross discourtesy to the House and that the image which the Government like to project of themselves as slick, efficient businessmen is completely false? Will he intervene personally to try to expedite replies?

I will consider any examples brought to my notice. It is the intention of every Government Department to answer Members' letters as soon as they can. I believe that there are three instances concerning the hon. Gentleman. In his speech on employment he said that he had written to me and had not had a reply. He has since been courteous enough to send me a letter saying that that had been a misunderstanding, and that he had not written to me about the matter. The second case involved Peterlee, and it was necessary to discuss the matter with the Peterlee Development Corporation. The third involved a constitutent who was at sea at the relevant time, and it was necessary to await his return to deal with the matter. In both cases the Department concerned apologised for the delay. If the hon. Gentleman has any other cases, I will gladly look into them.

Will the Prime Minister please look at this in a general sense? Hon. Members on both sides of the House write to Departments asking for verification of certain points, and it takes three or four weeks for an answer to come back, usually confirming what the hon. Member knows to be the case but on which he likes to get Ministerial confirmation, although that could be done almost by return of post. This is very annoying, because hon. Members want to get the official reply from the Department to send to their constituents.

When the hon. Gentleman, or any other hon. Member, writes to a Department about any matter on which he wants confirmation of facts, it is necessary for the officers in the Department to investigate the facts and either to confirm or to deny them. No Department can be expected to do less. During my short period of office a large number of replies have been sent by me to the hon. Gentleman but he refuses to take notice of any of them.

Will my right hon. Friend accept that the general experience of hon. Members is far from that described by the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis), and that there has been a significant improvement since this Government took office? The trouble is that hon. Gentlemen opposite often forget to send the letters they write.

Without wishing to go into a comparison between the procedures under the different Administrations—because there has been no change in procedure—I think that most hon. Members will agree that, considering the very large amount of correspondence between hon. Members and Departments, the number of occasions on which there are slip-ups or complaints is remarkably small.

asked the Prime Minister if the public speech of the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry at Liverpool on 20th November on unemployment represents Government policy.

Yes, Sir.

Would the Prime Minister care to clarify the Government's policy? At the moment they appear to be increasing public expenditure to deal with the appalling level of unemployment, whereas last year's White Paper on Public Expenditure indicated that there would be substantial cuts in public expenditure to achieve economic growth. What has happened to that policy?

Procedures carried out by the Government enabled cuts in non-productive public expenditure to be made to bring about decreases in taxation. The Government are now bringing forward public expenditure of a productive kind. If the hon. Gentleman does not want the nationalised industries to bring forward their expenditure for productive purposes, he had better say so clearly.

Did not the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry make clear in his speech that, while it was not Government policy to bolster up incompetent industry, the Government would help those firms which offered a reasonable chance of success? Is it not important to provide real jobs and not sham ones?

Yes.

If it is the right hon. Gentleman's intention to reinforce the "lame duck" theory, will he state that it is now the Government's intention to allow every industry to rely upon its own resources?

It has always been the position that, where particular industries, through no fault of their own, need State help of various kinds, either because the scale of the project is too large for one firm or nation to undertake, or because of particular individual circumstances, it is possible for the Government to help them.

asked the Prime Minister if he is satisfied with the co-ordination between the Ministers responsible for the nationalised industries and the Secretary of State for Employment on dealing with the problems caused by redundancies in the nationalised industries; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. Any decision to declare redundancies is one for the nationalised industries themselves: but the Department of Employment does all it can to assist those who lose their jobs to find alternative employment.

Is the Prime Minister aware that thousands of workers are due to be made redundant by the nationalised industries during the next six months? In Scotland alone the British Steel Corporation, British Railways and the National Coal Board between them during the next three or four months will make between 1,000 and 2,000 workers redundant. Does the Prime Minister agree that those workers have hardly any chance of obtaining an alternative job, and will he use his good offices to press the nationalised industries to implement a freeze on redundancies until unemployment falls to more reasonable levels?

I do not think it would be right for the Government to insist that nationalised industries should freeze their existing situation. The responsibility must be on the boards of the nationalised industries, whether it is coal, which may be of particular interest to the hon. Gentleman, or whether it is the railways or steel. The steel industry was nationalised, on the arguments of the hon. Gentleman's party, to bring about a rationalisation. The railways have a particular problem. On coal, which particularly concerns the hon. Gentleman, I understand that most of the workers engaged in the colliery which has been closed have been put into other jobs in collieries.

Does my right hon. Friend recall that it was as a result of the policies of the Labour Party that the Scottish-based steel companies were replaced by the nationalised concern, which has since, to the complaint of hon. Gentlemen opposite, been removing jobs from Scotland? How can their complaints on this matter be reconciled with their demand for an extension of nationalisation?

It is their job to reconcile them. The other aspect is that the nationalised industries are at the same time putting a massive amount of money into fresh investment.

Surely the Prime Minister cannot hope to get away with that reply. He must accept that interference in the pricing policies of the nationalised industries, particularly steel, is advancing many of the redundancies which are arising this winter?

It is difficult to argue, when the Government have said to the nationalised industries that they should carry out the same policy as the C.B.I. of keeping prices down, that they are thereby creating redundancies. Actually, the reverse is true.

Who is co-ordinating with whom about the Barassie workshops in Ayrshire, and with what result?

That was a decision of the British Railways Board, who carried out their undertakings to consult the trade unions. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Transport Industries went further and saw the unions and fully explained the position to them. This was, therefore, a decision of the Railways Board, after carrying out the obligations they had undertaken of consultation with the unions.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make an official visit to Rugby.

I have at present no plans to do so.

Is the Prime Minister aware that his answer will be fairly widely welcomed in my constituency? If he should change his mind and come to Rugby, will he explain away the Government's achievement of turning the West Midlands into a depressed area? If that is to be the fate, under a Tory Government, of the most prosperous region in the country, what hope is there for Scotland, Wales and the North-East?

The wholly unemployed rate in the hon. Gentleman's constituency is well below the national average. On the one occasion when the total register was high, it was due to those who were temporarily stopped because of disputes.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make an official visit to Bexley.

I am frequently in Bexley, and shall be there next Friday, when I shall be visiting the Re-Instate factory, established for the rehabilitation of men and women recovering from certain illnesses.

The House will be grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, but will he say how many more visits he is likely to make to Bexley before he leaves for lusher electoral pastures? When will he announce his bunk from Bexley?

I have had a very satisfactory relationship with my constituency and my constituents for 21 years, and we have achieved it without the meddling interference of the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Prime Minister what further exchanges he has had with the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic about matters of common concern; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Lynch made a formal call upon me for a short time yesterday afternoon. In the course of our meeting we touched on a number of matters of common interest, but this was not the occasion for discussions in depth or detail.

Was it made clear to our always welcome visitor that, despite the recent utterances of the Leader of the Opposition—not to mention the remarks of the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley)—the bipartisan pledge remains that Northern Ireland will not be separated from Britain against the wishes of its Parliament? Would not the best expression of Irish unity today be a common strategy against forces which are at least as dangerous to Mr. Lynch as to Mr. Faulkner?

Mr. Lynch fully understands the nature of the 1949 Act and the undertakings given by successive Prime Ministers since then—undertakings which were repeated by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition in the debate on Northern Ireland last week.

Did the Prime Minister of Ireland expound on any of the suggestions in my right hon. Friend's speech—in particular, did he speak about the need for international discussions as between the two countries on the future constitution of Northern Ireland?

I explained to the Prime Minister of the Republic that the Leader of the Opposition and I had a private discussion since the debate about the manner in which the talks might be organised. He told me he had been considering the way in which this could also be done in the Republic.