With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I wish to present a Petition, in conjunction with my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker), on behalf of our constituents.

And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.

The wrapping of the Petition explains that it contains 80,000 signatures. The hon. Gentleman can add my name to it and make it 80,001.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the consultations he has now had with interested parties following the publication of the White Paper, "The Reorganisation of the Health Services in Scotland".

The White Paper has been the subject of wide consultation. Written observations have been received from over 140 bodies and individuals, and in addition a number of topics have been the subject of detailed consideration with local authority, National Health Service and professional interests. The various comments received have been taken into account in the preparation of the National Health Service (Scotland) Bill, introduced in another place last month.

Do the replies which have been received show disenchantment with certain aspects of the over-centralisation of the Bill? May we have an assurance that the Bill will be amended when it eventually reaches this House? Is it not disgraceful that a Bill of such major importance should have its first proceedings in another place, before the House of Commons has had an opportunity even to discuss the principles of the White Paper?

To answer the second part of that supplementary question first, I see no reason for regarding the Bill as unsuitable for introduction in another place. The answer to the second part is that of course opinions contrary to the Bill have been expressed during the very detailed consultations that have gone on, though the Bill as a whole has been very favourably received.

Leaving aside the question of consultations, which I know have been wide-ranging, may I give the Under-Secretary notice that in Committee we shall pursue a number of important points relating to the implementation of the proposals in the Measure, some of which were raised with him at his meeting with the S.T.U.C. on 19th November, particularly in regard to the need to strengthen the machinery within the proposed new organisation to allow proper consultation with and participation of those employed in the service? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this will be a particularly important factor in relation to the effect that any decisions may have on the service when the Bill becomes law?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the way in which he approaches the Bill and I am sure that we shall have a constructive discussion in Committee. I hope that at the end of the day Scotland will be proud of its new legislation.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what study he has made of the administrative costs of selective distribution of milk, on a basis of medical evidence, in contrast with a system of blanket supply in primary schools.

None, Sir. I see no need for any authority to incur significant extra expenditure.

Do the Government dispute that there is disproportionate and enormous cost in health visiting and medical time?

That should not be necessary. Each authority can decide how to set about this task, and it is not necessary for every child to be examined.

In view of the astonishing discrepancy shown in the results in Scotland following medical examinations——

Astonishing indeed!

—varying from zero in some counties to 40 per cent. in at least one, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he does not agree that the scheme has become farcical, because it depends entirely on the say-so of a particular medical officer, who is under no guidance whatever, and that the Government are not encouraging medical officers to take a properly balanced medical decision? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he must deal with this issue, which is becoming a disgrace?

It is more a matter that each authority has been able to approach this differently. The medical officers naturally use their professional judgment. I remind the hon. Member that when the Labour Government removed milk from all secondary schools, they made no arrangements at all for medical exemptions.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland in view of the concern which has been expressed in legal quarters at the circumstances in which certain people have recently died as the result of deliberate lethal attack, in some cases by juveniles, what steps he intends taking to create greater security for human life.

The police have been strengthened in the past year and my right hon. Friend will continue to support and encourage them in all they do to increase efficiency. In co-operation with local authorities we shall maintain action on the social front. My right hon. Friend has also referred the penalties for homicide to the Emslie Committee.

Would the hon. Gentleman accept as a basis of his approach that punishment for crime should have a curative purpose? Does he believe that to be so today? If he does, can he say why the number of murders in Scotland during the last few years has been increasing so rapidly?

As the hon. Member appreciates, the question of the causes of violence and so on is a very wide one. I agree that one has to look at it on every side, in relation to the police, the forms of punishment and many other factors. I assure the hon. Member that I take very seriously what he has said.

Would the Under-Secretary bear in mind that the increase in crime over the past few years has been in weapon assaults rather than murders? During the past six years there has been a fairly steady rate of murders in Scotland, until the past year. In these circumstances will the Government pay attention mainly to weapon assaults?

I take note of what the hon. and learned Gentleman has said. As he knows, the question of powers of search for offensive weapons, a matter in which I had some interest at one stage, is at present being considered by the Thompson Committee on Criminal Procedure. I take to heart what the hon. and learned Gentleman has said, because this is a serious aspect of the problem.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement regarding the recruitment of student nurses in Scotland.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given to the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars) on 18th January which indicated a steady improvement in recruitment.—[Vol. 829, c. 146.]

I am interested in those figures. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some hospital boards of management in Scotland have had to postpone recruitment of student nurses because of financial limitations? In view of the introduction of a 40-hour week for nurses and the clamant need for trained nursing staff, is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a danger of reduction of standards of patient care in hospitals in Scotland? Would he undertake to see that sufficient funds are made available to regional hospital boards to try to maintain or even to improve the standards of patient care?

It is for the board of management to determine how the funds which it is allocated can best be spent. But I will bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said, and if he has a particular case in mind I will look at that urgently.

Would my hon. Friend see that facilities in nurses' homes are continually being improved by things like extra telephones for nurses, which at present are usually provided by the friends of the hospital rather than the hospital board?

I thank my hon. Friend for that suggestion. It is certainly something that regional boards and boards of management are examining carefully. The nurses' homes that I have visited in the past six months have impressed me with the conditions available.

Whatever the recruitment figures might be, is there not considerable wastage caused by trained nurses leaving the profession, due in large measure to the gross exploitation of these young women and the shocking inadequacy of their pay? Will the hon. Gentleman undertake that the current pay claim by nurses is expedited by the Government and that the Government will take steps to ensure that they do not impose an arbitrary 8 per cent. annual increase on the nurses?

I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's approach to this matter. I hope he will realise that for student nurses, to which the Question refers, the wastage has been falling in recent years, and this is a very good trend. The wage claim is now before the Whitley Council and it will come to the Government in due course.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received from the Dreghorn Tenants' Association, Irvine New Town; and what reply has he sent.

My right hon. Friend received representations from the association against any further increase of rent, and replied that he understood that the new rents scheme to be introduced by the new town development corporation from 28th May, 1972, will accord with the Housing Bill at present before the House, which will ensure that no tenant will pay more rent than he can reasonably afford.

I am very disappointed by that answer. Does not the Under-Secretary realise that the tenants of these houses are already paying the highest rents in Scotland, an average rent of £4 per week for a four-apartment house, and in 1975–76 there is a possibility of these rents rising to £32 per month, which is £8 per week? I ask the Under-Secretary to look at the need for special financial consideration to be given to Irvine Development Corporation in order to allow it to get out of this unjust situation.

I certainly would not accept at their face value the figures that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned. Surely the main feature of the new scheme is that the generous rent rebate scheme, most of the cost of which will be paid by the Government, will protect tenants from any rent levels that they cannot afford to pay.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the estimated cost of the additional projects submitted by Scottish local authorities in July, 1971, at the Government's request, as a measure to curb unemployment, and the estimated cost of the projects.

Between July and December proposals for about £100 million of additional works were submitted by local and other public authorities. Of these, £60 million were approved under the special programme, some £9 million could be accommodated within normal provision and £27 million could not be approved because the stipulated criteria were not satisfied.

That reply is a little disappointing. Is the Secretary of State aware that at any rate there was the belief by many local authorities that, having been asked to produce programmes of emergency measures, there would be a swift response from the Government? Is it the case in Edinburgh that by the end of the year only 50 per cent. of the projects had been approved?

"Emergency" is the key word. About half of what was proposed by Edinburgh could not be accepted, much of it because it could not be started and largely carried out by March, 1973. But a great deal of it can be incorporated in the normal programme.

Can the Secretary of State give us in HANSARD a list of all the projects and the areas in which they would have been carried out, and an estimate of the number of jobs that the work would provide?

I will certainly supply such information as is now available. I have in the past kept the House informed in HANSARD of how this is going, and I undertake to do this again, as far as we can, up to the present situation. As I said, it is exceedingly difficult to estimate how many jobs are kept or how many more jobs are brought into being as a result of this kind of programme.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will make a statement about his plans for solving the shortage of midwives in the Lanarkshire area, and about his plans for recruiting further midwives.

This is a local problem, at the Bellshill Maternity Hospital, about which the hon. Gentleman has shown great concern. I am satisfied that the Western Regional Hospital Board and the Board of Management are taking all possible steps to obtain additional staff. There has been wide advertising following the hospital careers exhibition at Airdrie last year, and the hospital authorities are exploring ways of making service at the hospital more attractive to nursing staff.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply and for the correspondence he has had with me on this matter. Bearing in mind that when trained nurses enter the midwifery service they suffer a drop in salary, will the hon. Gentleman consider the idea of restoring their salary to its proper level? On that basis he would go a long way to solving the problem. Will he also institute an inquiry concerning the Bellshill Maternity Hospital to correct its staffing position?

Regarding the salary, the hon. Gentleman should know that that matter is for the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council. In its pay claim, however, the staff side has included a specific claim for post-registration students and student midwives, and this will be given a great deal of consideration by the management side. On the second part of the question, at this stage this is a matter for the regional board and the board of management and I hope that they will be able to solve the problems there as soon as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will amend the bursary regulations to take account of the raising of the school leaving age to 16 years, so that pupils under 16 years who are eligible shall continue to qualify for higher school bursaries; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir. The purpose of higher school bursaries is to encourage parents to let their children stay at school beyond the leaving age.

But is not the hon. Gentleman aware that it is prescribed that a pupil must reach school leaving age to qualify for a bursary? The raising of the school leaving age to 16 will mean that the 15-year-olds are no longer eligible. Does not the hon. Gentleman think that it would be a national scandal to deprive 15-year-old boys and girls of the right to qualify for a bursary? Is it not time the hon. Gentleman did something about it?

The bursary is for pupils who would have left school. We have made transitional arrangements for any schoolchildren now aged 15 so that they will not be deprived of the bursary when they reach 16 this year.

I think I am not the only Member who is very confused by the hon. Gentleman's answers. All the statistics show that the main falling-off in schools attendance occurs because of hardship between the school leaving age and the entrance age for higher education. The matter is now a key educational problem. Bursaries should be available. Will the hon. Gentleman clarify what he says about the position and deal with the general situation arising from it?

It is clear that when the school leaving age is raised to 16 bursaries will be available only to those children over the age of 16.

Scandalous.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will recommend the establishment of a Royal Commission to inquire into the high cost of building and the low output of the building industry in Scotland.

My right hon. Friend will continue to encourage the Scottish building industry to sustain the improvements it has been making in quality and productivity. I do not believe that a Royal Commission could assist this process.

As the Government do not propose to recommend a Royal Commission, may I assume that they have considered the Sidwell Report on Scottish house-building? What action do they propose to take on it?

The Sidwell Report has been under continuous consideration by my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for the Environment and the Secretary of State for Employment and myself since it was published. It has also been under review by the Scottish Housing Advisory Committee. Many steps have been taken to try to help the building industry to improve its practices and thereby solve some of the problems brought to light by Professor Sidwell.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the building trade is adhering to all the regulations? There are some pretty dicey buildings going up, so far as I can see.

As far as I can find out, the building trade is adhering to the building regulations. Professor Sidwell was of the opinion that some of the regulations contributed to higher costs, and we are examining this possibility.

Is the Minister aware that the cost of house-building in Scotland is a very important, almost critical, question? If the Government want to increase home ownership, they should realise that the relationship between ordinary wages and building costs is very important. Unless we can bring the cost of construction down to the English level, the hon. Gentleman will never solve any of the housing problems in Scotland. Will he not treat the matter as one of urgency?

I agree that the matter is very important. Since the Sidwell Report was published we have taken a number of specific actions, including consideration by the Scottish Apprenticeship and Training Council of the possibility of adjusting training programmes; research by my Department into the relative value of certain traditional construction practices; research by the Building Research Station to the same aspects; consideration by the Building Standards Advisory Committee of the Sidwell criticism affecting the regulations; and a survey of Scottish productivity characteristics, in co-operation with the industry.

Is the Minister aware that not only are some pretty dicey buildings going up but that the prices of those dicey buildings are high and are rocketing? May I commend to him that he should make a study in his own constituency, comparing the prices demanded now with those asked a year ago? If the hon. Gentleman is not alarmed about the matter, is he aware that those seeking to buy those houses are very concerned?

The rise in prices causes great concern. I only wish that the right hon. Gentleman had thought about that when he introduced selective employment tax.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will attend the conference on North Sea oil arranged by the Scottish Council, Development and Industry.

I have already arranged to do so.

When the right hon. Gentleman attends the conference, and when his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Development takes the other conference on 14th February—an unfortunate clash of dates—will the people involved be told that we will not tolerate the high returns on capital invested that have been achieved on North Sea gas—80 per cent.—as a return on capital invested in North Sea oil? We expect North Sea oil to he a net contributor to our balance of payments position and we do not expect to experience a net outflow.

All those matters will no doubt come up during the two-day conference. I shall be mainly concerned with the new North Sea oil industry and the benefits it can bring to Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received in respect of the shortage of places in List D schools in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

During the last nine months my right hon. Friend has received written representations on this subject on four occasions. These representations related mainly to waiting times for admission to schools for senior Protestant girls, but since November, 1971, this has not presented any serious problem.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the very detailed answer he gave me in writing yesterday on the particular problem I raised with him. Does he not accept that even against the background of that detailed answer the problem still exists, that children's panels experience great difficulty in finding places for the children with whom they deal and that that could seriously affect their working in the future?

I cannot fully accept what the hon. Gentleman says. At present there is no problem and there is no delay in putting girls or boys over the age of 15 into a List D school. It is still too early to say whether the introduction of the children's hearings has had an effect on the number of places required, but we are making additions to two girls' schools and extensions are planned for two boys' schools in the modernisation programme costing about 1½ million in the next two years.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the estimated increase in schoolchildren receiving school meals as a result of the coal miners' strike; and what is the estimated additional cost.

I understand that applications from miners' families are being made and dealt with but detailed information is not collected centrally by reference to parent's employment.

Will the Minister accept that the children of miners claiming school meals are getting their legal entitlement, and will he refute the suggestions of his back-benchers that the law requires to be changed? Will he dissociate himself from the theory that has been expounded in his party that the way for Governments to win strikes is to try to starve the strikers into submission?

I cannot accept what the hon. Gentleman has said. It is open to parents to apply for free meals for their children at any time if the family's fiancial circumstances change, for whatever reason.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the value of the herring catch by the Scottish vessels in 1971.

The value of herring landed in Scotland by British vessels in 1971 was £4,429,588.

Is my hon. Friend aware that that is a tremendous result, which reflects great credit on our fishermen as well as on my hon. Friend for his support of them? As we now have the most important herring fisheries in Europe, has my hon. Friend any further proposals for conservation as well as for protection?

I am grateful for what my hon. Friend says. The 1971 catch was a record for the Scottish fleet in terms of value. I pay tribute to the efforts of our fishermen. We shall continue our consultations on conservation measures with the other nations that fish in the North Sea, and we are continuing in 1972 the 10-week ban that we tried out in 1971.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the number of approvals for new houses to be built in the public sector in 1971.

23,122.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this is the first increase in approvals in the public sector since the decline which set in in 1967? Can he calculate the extent to which this welcome improvement will help employment prospects in the construction industry in Scotland?

The decline set in after 1967, as I think my hon. Friend meant to say. It is a welcome turn of the tide and I hope that we shall get a further increase in the coming year with consequent great benefit to employment in Scotland and to the supply of homes for people on the waiting lists.

Will the hon. Gentleman answer a question which he does not answer in the Standing Committee on the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Bill? Will he admit that this shameful figure compares with 33,000 approvals in 1968 and the same number in 1969? Is it not the case that the entire building programme has collapsed by over one-third since the hon. Gentleman took office and that he is responsible for the failure to get approvals? Is it not a fact that a large number of these approvals are due in any event to the so-called "1st December clause" and that we have not yet been told how many of these houses are in that category?

The hon. Gentleman's figures are quite wrong. The figure for local authority approvals in 1968 was 27,491 and in 1969 it was 26,806. This represented a steady drop from the total in 1967. The drop has turned into an increase, which is very encouraging for us all.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not the case that the figures quoted by the hon. Gentleman do not——

Order. That is not a point of order.

The hon. Gentleman has twisted the figures.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what further representations he has received regarding his responsibilities in relation to the disposal of the assets in Scotland of the British Sugar Corporation.

My right hon. Friend has no such responsibilities.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that it would be a sorry state of affairs if the corporation were to dispose of these assets for a figure substantially less than that at which it was to sell to the private consortium which at one time was interested in growing sugar beet in Scotland?

Yes, Sir, but the hon. Gentleman must realise that the corporation has a clear commercial incentive to act in the best interests of its shareholders and that the Government are in no different position from that of other shareholders.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress is being made in the plans for the Forestry Commission to move its headquarters to Edinburgh; and if the original target date for moving still holds.

The Forestry Commission recently announced its decision to transfer its headquarters to Edinburgh, a decision which I welcome. Progress is in accordance with the programme announced by the commission, which is unchanged.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Can he tell me where in Edinburgh these headquarters are to be and whether this means more jobs becoming available?

A number of sites are under consideration in different parts of the city and it is estimated that about 140 new jobs will come into being.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the average amount per annum of mortgage interest relief to owner-occupiers of houses and dwellings in Scotland.

About £18 for 1970–71.

I thank the hon. Gentleman. Is he prepared to state the total number of owner-occupiers who were receiving this amount of tax relief? It would give us the wider picture.

I am afraid that I cannot give a figure for the number of people in Scotland receiving tax relief for purchasing their own homes, but I can say that the comparison, although not a very meaningful one, would indicate that the total amount of subsidy in the case of a council house in the previous year—the most recent figures we have—was approaching £100.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that a person receiving the average wage in manufacturing industry in Scotland would not be able to obtain a mortgage to buy the cheapest new house offered for sale in Scotland? What are the Government going to do to remedy this situation before they pursue their policy further of increasing council rents, thus chasing people into the private sector where they cannot afford the houses being built?

The question of who can afford a mortgage has to be considered by the individual and the building society in the light of the circumstances of each case. If a person who cannot afford a mortgage has low means and needs help, he will get it from the generous rent rebate scheme under the new Bill.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what meetings he has had with the Chairman of the British Sugar Corporation to discuss sugar beet growing in Scotland.

My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Home Affairs and Agriculture has had a meeting and other consultations.

Is it not the case that since it was agreed that this country should enter the E.E.C. my right hon. Friend has had no contact to discuss what is an obvious change of circumstances? Does not he think that this is what he should have done?

The prospect of entry has created no new situation which would justify me in reopening with the Chairman of the B.S.C. the question of the Cupar factory.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his estimate, on a percentage basis, of the number of tenants in local authority housing who will pay increased rents, when the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Bill becomes law.

This will depend on the rents fixed by local authorities for individual houses and on the effect of the new rent rebate scheme, and accordingly no estimate can be made.

If the hon. Gentleman is unable to assess accurately this part of the Bill, how can any credence be attached to the subsidy provisions? Is it not correct to say that the high cost of rent rebates will take a high proportion of the money from tenants and not from the ratepayers and taxpayers, with the Government getting some of the money into the bargain?

I am not sure that I follow that point. The position under the new Bill will be that those who face rent increases they cannot reasonably afford will be assisted by the generous rent rebate scheme, the major part of the cost of which will be paid by the Government and not by the ratepayer or the individual. This is a fair system which will ensure that there is no hardship.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that local authorities like Glasgow will face administrative costs in introducing this subsidy? Will he reconsider and give help to local authorities like Glasgow in administering the subsidy?

I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman has said but Glasgow already runs a rent rebate scheme of which it pays the entire cost of administration as well as the whole cost of the rent rebates. In future the Government will pay most of the cost of the rent rebates. The cost of administering the allowances will come from Government subsidy.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many bowling club representatives he has appointed to the Sports Council for Scotland.

None of the members was appointed to represent a particular sport. All were appointed for the contribution they would, as individuals, make to the work of the council as a whole.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that it is necessary to have some representation of the sports which cater for the largest number of people? Is he not aware that bowling is next to angling as the largest participating sport in Scotland, with over 60,000 people actively participating regularly? Does he not think that he should put on the Sports Council for Scotland someone who could put forward their point of view?

I will bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said when I next appoint members to the Sports Council. I ask him to accept, however, that bowling, although it has been without representation, has accepted grants of £282,000 since the scheme was set up in 1964 and that this is much more than any other single sport has received.

Is my hon. Friend aware that bowlers have a great tradition of calmness and initiative, going back to the days of Sir Francis Drake? Is he really saying that none of today's bowlers in Scotland have these qualities? If he is, I do not believe him.

Of course, there are bowlers of quality, but I do not think that Sir Francis Drake would play at Queen's Park or Hampden Park.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the value of the white fish catch by the Scottish inshore fleet during 1971.

The value of white fish landed in Scotland by British vessels under 80 ft. in length in 1971 was £15,467,047. This was an increase of 35 per cent. over the previous year.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that this record catch reflects the strength of the Scottish fishing industry, particularly in relation to its European competitors?

There is little doubt that the Scottish fishing industry is in extremely good heart at present. It is interesting to note that the number of boats completed last year was the highest since 1961. On this basis of competitive strength, the industry has no need to fear entry into the European Economic Community.

Does not that excellent figure highlight the lack of foresight and wisdom of those hon. Members representing fishing constituencies who voted for entry into the E.E.C. when this will mean that in 1983 these fishings will disappear?

There are none so deaf as those who will not listen. If the hon. Gentleman would study the agreement in relation to 1982 and not mislead the fishing industry, he would see that the industry has little to fear and that the British Government are well able, if they so wish, to protect the interests of the industry at that time.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will ask the General Teaching Council to hold an inquiry into the methods of teaching and training, and students' facilities, at teacher training colleges.

The council is already undertaking an inquiry into the training of teachers for work in the secondary schools. My right hon. Friend has at present no plans to ask it to extend the scope of that inquiry.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that Scotland has a more highly developed system for the education and training of teachers than have England and Wales? Since the James Report applies only to England and Wales, will not the hon. Gentleman reconsider the matter and appoint a comparable committee to inquire into the education and training of teachers in Scotland?

I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but I think it would be wise to study the report which will be published in the early summer and also to give careful consideration to the James Report, as my Department is now doing, bearing in mind that teacher training in England and Wales differs widely from that in Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the public concern about the proposed route of the eastern flank of the Glasgow motorway box; what action he will take to allay it; and whether he will make a statement.

I am aware of the interest being shown in this part of Glasgow's Highway Plan, and I am sure the corporation will take it fully into account in developing specific proposals for the east flank of the Inner Ring Road.

I hope that my hon. Friend will not leave this entirely to Glasgow Corporation, which seems to have made up its mind. When so many towns are re-examining the need for urban roads, I hope that my hon. Friend will use his influence to get Glasgow to do the same.

I am well aware of my hon. Friend's feelings on this, with which I have a great deal of sympathy. It would be premature for me to express views either way until the corporation has put specific proposals to me. At that stage there will be full opportunity for objections to be made and considered at a public inquiry before decisions are taken.

I have no objection to intervention in matters east of Glasgow Cross by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith), but is this subject within the discussions which the Minister is having with the corporation on the phasing of the whole of the redevelopment programme?

No, this is not a specific subject, except in so far as anything affecting the long-term development plan of the city obviously has to be taken into account in terms of roads.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has made of the effect of industrial development in Scotland of the abolition of the regional employment premium in 1974.

It is not possible to make a valid estimate of this.

Should not the Secretary of State start thinking about it? We have a desperately high level of unemployment and although, according to the right hon. Gentleman, we are in an era of high productivity, we shall have a great unemployment problem for some years to come. Does he view with equanimity the disappearance of the labour subsidy, except in special development areas, after 1974? Does he not realise that this is the one form of regional development assistance which benefits existing as well as incoming firms? Will not the Secretary of State give a satisfactory answer and show that he is conscious of the problem of attracting and maintaining jobs?

I am aware that this measure has not in practice acted as an incentive in the way in which it was originally thought it would. The terminal date is still more than two-and-a-half years away and we shall naturally be considering the situation nearer the time. The Green Paper introduced by the Labour Government proposed a period of five years only. That period was increased to seven years when the scheme was brought into effect and September, 1974, will be the end of the seven years. We have undertaken to keep it until that date, as we said we would before the General Election.

Do I understand that the Government have decided to abolish it without being aware of the consequences?

We have given notice that the terminal date set by the Labour Government is to be adhered to—the seven-year period—but it is over two-and-a-half years away and it is too early yet to decide definitely what should be done then.

When my right hon. Friend is studying possible incentives to employment in Scotland, will he please consider the serious proposal put forward by my hon. Friends and myself that the sugar beet industry in Scotland should be retained until 1974 when its future within the E.E.C. can be properly assessed?

I am very much aware of what my hon. Friends have been saying on this, but the Government took into account the question of entry to the E.E.C. in their consideration of the future of the sugar beet industry in Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is now prepared to publish the results of the secondary schools staffing survey.

The first of two volumes of statistics will be published about the end of February. The second volume is being printed. My right hon. Friend's Department is preparing a report on secondary school staffing based on the survey and this too will be published.

I thank the Under-Secretary for his reply. Does he realise that those of us who support the Government's policy of raising the school leaving age to 16 this year want the result of this survey to be published, since we believe it will show that we have an adequate supply of teachers to carry out this policy?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman and I can give him both assurances. The survey will be published and we shall have an adequate supply of teachers, always excepting possible local difficulties in some areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will make a statement on the meeting he had with the Scottish Development Council delegation on Thursday, 13th January.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister gave on 20th January to the hon. Member for Rutherglen (Mr. Gregor Mackenzie).—[Vol. 829, c. 250.]

I have myself questioned the Prime Minister, but is the Secretary of State aware that last year the number of industrial development certificates allocated in Scotland was the lowest for the last five years? Does he realise that there are more than 154,000 unemployed in Scotland? We have now had an intimation about the iron ore terminal and, therefore, will he be most voluble at Cabinet level in pressing for the steel complex at Hunterston? If we do not get it, will he do the honourable thing and, in protest, resign from office?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that I shall continue to be voluble at Cabinet and other levels. I heard my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister replying to the hon. Gentleman's question yesterday after he had made a full statement about the meeting. The hon. Gentleman will have noted that the ore terminal was one of the matters which the representatives of the Scottish Council advocated when they came to see the Prime Minister. The other matters are still under consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in view of the number of road accidents, including fatal, seriously injured, slightly injured and vehicular collisions since 1969, he will approve a flyover for pedestrians at Carlisle Road, Airdrie, as a safety measure for the public.

It is for Airdrie Town Council, in the first instance, to consider whether a pedestrian footbridge would be justified at this site. The town council has not asked my right hon. Friend to approve a footbridge, but any such request would be carefully considered.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Airdrie Town Council has already submitted proposals for crossings that have been rejected by his Department? Does he realise that from 1969 to date 36 accidents have occurred here, resulting in two fatalities, two serious injuries, 10 less serious injuries and 22 collisions? As this stretch of the trunk road is built-up on both sides will he bear in mind that the only way to take pedestrians off it is to build a pedestrian flyover? Will he please look at this matter again?

I well appreciate the hon. Gentleman's concern about this matter and that of his constituents. We have to conform to general criteria over the country as a whole and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, it was found that the vehicle and accident rates did not justify a light-controlled crossing. I have, however, informed the town council that I should be prepared to authorise the provision of a zebra crossing and that if the town council were to propose a footbridge I would consider it.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what reports of Royal Commissions and of other official committees recommending reform of the law of Scotland have not yet been implemented; and what proposals the Government have for early implementation of any of these.

With permission I will circulate a list in the OFFICIAL REPORT. Eleven reports are listed, three of which have been partly implemented and one of which will be implemented if Parliament approves the Maintenance Orders (Reciprocal Enforcement) Bill. Of the remainder some deal with matters now under review by the Scottish Law Commission.

Does not the Under-Secretary agree that his answer reveals a very unsatisfactory state of affairs and that law reform in Scotland, if it has not come to a standstill, has slowed down far too much? In these circumstances, what action do the Government propose to take?

As the hon. and learned Gentleman, I am sure, realises, the reports in question cover a period of 14 years, and the greater number of them were submitted during the previous Government's term of office. Therefore I cannot accept that the present Government have been in any way dilatory in dealing with this matter. I share the hon. and learned Gentleman's concern that where reports are completed and recommendations are made we obviously want to implement them, but it depends to a great extent on the availability of parliamentary time.

What are the Government going to do about that?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I have already stated that I am prepared to give all co-operation for meetings of the Second Scottish Standing Committee on Wednesdays to deal with this kind of thing?

I note the right hon. Gentleman's remarks, but if he had behaved more constructively in relation to other legislation than he has done, there would have been a great deal more of benefit to Scotland and to the law of Scotland, but we know that his mind does not work that way.

Is it not very dangerous to suggest that merely because lawyers suggest there should be a change in the law, there should be a change in the law? One might as well suggest that company law should be changed because of suggestions by directors of companies. Surely these decisions should be taken in this place and not implemented merely

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received regarding the effect on social work departments of the local authorities' policies introduced by the South of Scotland Electricity Board relating to payment of arrears and the deposits required from new consumers.

The Association of Directors of Social Work has represented to my right hon. Friend that social work departments are having to spend a considerable amount of time looking into cases of families which claim to be in financial difficulty over electricity supply.

Does not the Under-Secretary accept, against the background of that answer, that he should approach the South of Scotland Electricity Board in the same manner as the electricity boards here in England have been approached, to ask the board to reconsider its attitude towards payments of arrears and deposits required? I appreciate the position of the board and I know of the bad debts it has at the present time. I am only asking the hon. Gentleman to consider that an approach

There have been recommendations for changes in the law, but changes in the law involve this House and, therefore, the recommendations, when they come forward in legislation, will be considered on their merits in this House.

The hon. Gentleman knows that this is a very difficult problem. The bad debts of the South of Scotland Electricity Board are running at around £400,000 per year and they have to be carried by those consumers who do pay their accounts. Consultations are going on between the local authorities and the board, and I hope that a solution can be found to help in this difficult situation.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he now proposes to call a Scottish conference of management, trade unions and local authorities on unemployment.

I have regular contacts in the Scottish Economic Council and frequent contacts with other representatives of industry and trade unions, and I have had recent meetings with representatives of local authority associations. I do not therefore consider that it is necessary for me to call a special conference.

Could the right hon. Gentleman explain how a conference is called at, I understand, the instigation of his Department with the local authorities and, since we have had some strictures about behaviour from some of his hon. Friends on the Front Bench, why the date of that conference conflicts with the S.T.U.C. assembly organised at the Usher Hall, Edinburgh? Can this Government get nothing right? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have just discussed this with the S.T.U.C., which believes that the reason for this clash is an endeavour by the Government to try to manipulate the mass media?

I think the hon. Member means to refer to the conference of local authorities and others in the northeast of Scotland concerning North Sea oil. This is one which was asked for and which I arranged at the convenience of those concerned, and it happens that the local authorities, I understand, have no difficulty in sending representatives to this conference and to the other one which is taking place. It happens to be on a day when my hon. Friend who will be in the chair at the conference can be available, it being a Monday, not a parliamentary day—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh?"] It is in the morning, when Parliament is not sitting. That is what I meant. It is at a time when my hon. Friend can be available.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what reduction in the numerical strength of the Civil Service, expressed, respectively, in numbers and in percentage, occurred during the period of 18 months between 1st July, 1970, and 31st December, 1971; and, having regard to the legislative programme of the Government having been substantially settled for 1972, what further reduction he now anticipates during this year.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave him on 1st December, 1971. The figures for 1st January, 1972, are not yet available but will be published shortly.—[Vol. 827, c. 107.]

Is it not a fact that bureaucrats are introverted, introspective and secretive and thus are irreconcilable to Tory General Election promises for open government and, secondly, that there would be a dramatic reduction in the size and extent of the bureaucracy? When is that to be implemented?

My hon. Friend is entitled to his own view on the Civil Service. As far as the numbers of civil servants is concerned, as he knows there has been a substantial reduction in some areas. These have been outweighed by an increase in prison staff and in social security work. If he wants cuts in those programmes he is free to bring forward his proposals.

Will the hon. Gentleman say whether it remains the intention of the Government that there should be an overall reduction in the number of non-industrial civil servants?

We intend to achieve cuts where we can, but the point is that there are programmes demanding more civil servants. Either we can slow up those programmes or we can achieve economies in manpower. If hon. Members opposite do not want more prison staff and welfare staff they should get up and say so.

Is not the point that the rate of increase of civil servants should be cut back as far as possible, if not actually reduced, because is it not a fact that if the rate of increase in the next few years is what it has been in the last few years by 2000 A.D. everybody in the country will be a civil servant?

It is certainly true that the rate of increase in recent months has been very much lower than it was in the years of the Labour Government.

Would the Minister ignore some of the blinkered blimps behind him?

Do not be rude.

Would it not be better to consider the present trend of unemployment and to consider that in the long-term interest there will have to be an expansion in service industries in both the private and public sectors?

I think it is perfectly healthy for this House to be suspicious of excessive bureaucracy.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service, having regard to the signing of the accession Treaty for the European Economic Community on 22nd January and the publication of the relevant documents in English with all the attendant operational regulations, if he will now provide further details of what increase in the British Civil Service he now anticipates on account of European Economic Community membership.

I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply to the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) on 19th January.—[Vol. 829, c. 197.]

Yes, but does not my hon. Friend recognise that, both in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum to the European Communities Bill and his earlier reply to which he alluded there is talk only of an increase in the bureaucracy for administration purposes and that he conveniently omits the 5,500 extra bureaucrats to implement the value-added tax? What has he got to say about that huge increase in the cost of collecting taxes?

As I suspect my hon. Friend knows, value-added tax implementation is quite separate from the decision to join the European Economic Community.

Slippery answers, I must say.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on the progress made in the creation of a Civil Service College in Scotland.

The Edinburgh Centre of the Civil Service College opened on 4th November, 1970, and has at present 180 student places. The training now provided includes courses for executive officers, for civil servants at middle management level and for those in the scientific and professional classes. Present proposals envisage a total of about 400 places when the adaptation of all the buildings is completed. This is expected to be in the mid-1970s.

Are there any delays in the proposed expansion?

I have no evidence of delays at the moment. If the hon. Gentleman does have evidence of delays or has reports of that kind which have come to him and will let me know them, I will certainly look into them.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the excellent decision to set up this college was made by the previous Government, and in view of the unemployment and the dispersal of civil servants throughout the country may we ask that more of these people should be able to establish themselves at this new establishment?

That raises a broader question. It is true that a dispersal study is going on. We hope to be able to announce a decision towards the autumn, but it is a separate question from that of the Civil Service College.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service whether he is satisfied with the present distribution between Departments of Government Press and information officers; and if he will make a statement.

The strength of information staff engaged on publicity and Press office work is primarily a matter for individual Ministers. The review which I mentioned in the reply to my hon. Friend on 25th May last will be completed shortly. If my hon. Friend is comparing staff between Departments he may find it useful to have the figures of the total staff in Departments' information divisions rather than the staff engaged on particular functions, as given in my reply on 25th May. I will, with permission, circulate the information in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he would not agree that there is a most extraordinary discrepancy in the facts that he has given? Is he aware that the Defence Department has 139 Press and information officers yet a major Department like the Home Office can get on with under 20?

I do not think the discrepancy is quite as bad as my hon. Friend may think. What he may have missed is that information staff includes people doing publicity, recruitment, advertising, exhibitions, general internal information, making films and a variety of other information services. Different Departments have quite different needs and these are reflected in the figures.