asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how he proposes to explain the provisions of the European Communities Bill about drivers' hours and tachographs to employers and unions in the roal haulage industry.

By normal consultation and publicity.

I am grateful for that answer, but I am afraid I know what it means. Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that there is a great deal of concern in the trade union movement about the foisting of this measuring device upon the industry and that it would have been far better if it had been introduced on a voluntary rather than a compulsory basis? Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that there will be the widest possible consultation, particularly with the Transport and General Workers Union, before the specifications for installation of the tachograph are drawn up?

Yes, Sir, there will be very full consultation. I have already met members of various trade unions on the subject on a number of occasions, and only this week I have had a talk with Mr. Jack Jones.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will introduce a policy of special grants for the improvement of public amenities especially in areas of high unemployment.

I recently announced new arrangements for grants to assist local authorities in development, intermediate and derelict land clearance areas in dealing with neglected and unsightly land in their areas. The aim is to create new employment and at the same time to improve the amenities of the areas concerned.

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. That is indeed a step in the right direction, but a great deal more could be done. There are many areas where improvements are needed in the arts, crafts and parks; all kinds of things are needed to bring our environment up to scratch. Would not this be an opportunity, particularly in areas of high unemployment, for the right hon. Gentleman to spend public money in the most fruitful cause, simultaneously improving the amenities of an area and providing useful employment for the people?

There has been a massive increase in activity in this sphere. Not only are there improvement grants for houses and grants under Operation Eyesore but there is a considerable increase in loan sanction for local authorities for other schemes. But I agree with the principle outlined by the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many times in 1971 the Noise Advisory Council met; on how many occasions he chaired the meeting; and what recommendations the council made.

Four meetings of the full council, two of which I chaired, and two of which another Minister of my Department chaired, and 24 meetings of sub-groups were held in 1971. The council compiled and approved reports on "Neighbourhood Noise", "Flight Routeing Near Airports", "The Enforcement of Vehicle Noise Regulations" and the Noise and Number Index. It also advised on standards for noise nuisance from major urban roads.

What is the right hon. Gentleman's attitude to the report of the working party on neighbourhood noise, and particularly its proposals for a new Noise Abatement Act?

I very much agree with the principle of its proposals. We have had the advice of the Noise Advisory Council on preparing draft legislation for a new Noise Abatement Act.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many prosecutions there have been for breaches of the speed limits on the River Yare in Norfolk in the last three years; and with what result.

This is not a matter for which my right hon. Friend is responsible. I suggest that my hon. Friend gets in touch with the Great Yarmouth Port and Haven Commissioners, the navigation authority concerned.

I am grateful for that suggestion, but does not my hon. Friend accept that his Department has the ultimate responsibility for ensuring that careless or dangerous navigation does not inflict damage upon river banks and walls especially where these afford the sole and often precarious protection to the adjacent farmland, which is often at a much lower level than the tidal river waters?

I agree with my hon. Friend to this extent, that it demonstrates the need to put all the authorities concerned with water under the same umbrella, as is proposed in my right hon. Friend's suggestions for the water industry

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if the height of any new bridge over the river between Yarmouth and the Port of Norwich will allow the river to take the same size ships as hitherto.

Any proposals for new bridges between Great Yarmouth and Norwich would be advertised in accordance with the statutory requirements, which also provide that any objections could be the subject of a public inquiry.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the Port of Norwich is still very busy and that we should like to see any bridge over the River Yare high enough to enable ships to go beneath it or should like it to be a swing-bridge?

There have been discussions between the harbour authority and the Norfolk and Norwich joint structure plans team on the future of the Port of Norwich. The harbour authority's view, which is that Norwich's port activities cannot be transferred anywhere else, has been accepted by the team.

I thank my hon. Friend for his very good answer. May I say in passing how grateful I would have been had my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, South (Dr. Stuttaford) informed me that he was about to ask a question about my constituency?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I say to my hon. Friend that it has nothing to do with his constituency?

That is not a point of order.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will consider issuing a driving licence and making it proof against abuses by providing the holder's particulars as in the passport, including a photograph.

No, Sir. I am not satisfied that such an extra requirement would be justified.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Incidentally I am "Madam", not "Sir". My hon. Friend replied "No, Sir". [Interruption.] Oh, I see; he was addressing me through the Chair. My suggestion was not ridiculous because there are quite a number of abuses through forgery of driving licences. Last year there were 2,256 findings of guilt. It would save a great deal of abuse of the driving licence if a photograph were attached.

Well, Sir, I have given my hon. Friend's suggestion very careful thought. I still do not believe that it would be justified. Even the prospect that some licences, like my hon. Friend's, would become more decorative would not justify it.

Would it not to make the licence holder fingerprints on his licence?

The hon. Gentleman has some funny friends.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will issue a circular to local authorities redefining the distinction between operational and non-operational railway land in the consideration of planning applications.

The distinction is of long standing and generally well understood. It would not be appropriate to analyse it in detail, because disputed cases can be referred to me for settlement.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is some confusion on this point in Bromley, particularly about the activities of Amalgamated Road-stone at Chislehurst goods yard, and that many of my constituents are objecting to the intolerable noise and nuisance but that repeated representations by them have been met with evasion by Bromley Council and with apparent indifference from my right hon. Friend's Department? Will he undertake to investigate the situation to ascertain how this company is operating on non-operational land without planning permission?

I can assure my hon. Friend that my Department is never indifferent to problems which worry him, but in these cases the local authorities have power to serve a discontinuance notice and this they should do. If my hon. Friend thinks that the good offices of my Department could help in some way, I hope he will let me know. I shall be glad to help if I can.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make a further statement on his estimate of the costs of the Foulness Airport project.

I cannot yet add anything to the answer I gave my hon. Friend on 16th February.—[Vol. 831, c. 392.]

Will my right hon. Friend reconsider his remarks on 16th February about the Brancker Memorial Lecture by the Chairman of British Caledonian when my right hon. Friend said that the Chairman of British Caledonian Airways had an interest and therefore implicitly discounted suggestions made by him? Surely what the chairman was saying was that when up to £1,000 million of public money was being invested, one had to look at the full ramifications of the issue, including future technological developments in aero engineering.

I agree that it is right to look at all the implications of the project. We have done so, and we are proceeding with Maplin.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has received on the exploitation of the Foulness area since 2nd February, 1972.

I have received various representations from public and private interests and from a few hon. Members.

Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that he has received one specific representation indicating that development of Foulness should go far beyond the type of development set out in the statement of 2nd February? If he is really looking for port development in the United Kingdom will he cast his eyes much further north, to Hunterston, where there would be no need to dredge and where the establishment of a Europort would be of the greatest assistance to the area?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I completely adhere to the statement I made on this matter and have no intention of allowing primary industrial development to take place.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that quite the most important representations lie is likely to have received are from my constituents who will be affected by the whole project? Will he take this opportunity of giving an indication of when detailed proposals as to the location of the runways, the access routes and the new urbanisation are likely to be made public so that our people can know how they are to be affected?

I cannot give that information but I can assure my hon. Friend that I shall very soon make available to local authorities, amenity organisations and others concerned not the siting of the runways but the factors that we will be taking into consideration in coming to a conclusion, so that they can make their observations.

While I still hope that Foulness will not go ahead, if it goes ahead will the right hon. Gentleman clear up one misunderstanding? Is it not the case that Professor Buchanan in his minority report on the Roskill Commission, although in favour of Foulness, was not in favour of a huge industrial complex on regional planning grounds and the grounds of the general overcrowding of South-East Essex? Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that the statement he made on, I think, 13th February limiting the likely industrial and port development is broadly within the kind of limitations that Professor Buchanan had in mind?

The right hon. Gentleman will understand that I cannot speak for Professor Buchanan without consulting him on this topic but I can assure him that I have endeavoured to interpret Professor Buchanan's view in not allowing a massive development at Maplin which would be very bad on regional policy grounds.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what sociological survey was carried out by his Department to study the effect on communities of the proposed local government reorganisation.

The Government's proposals took account not only of the research work undertaken for the Redcliffe-Maud Royal Commission, but also the accumulated knowledge of conditions throughout the country available in Departments generally and derived from their responsibilities in connection with a great variety of central and local services.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Would he apply those remarks to the Britwell G.L.C. Estate which at the moment is shared between myself and the hon. and learned Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell)? This causes enough difficulties now but at least it is under one county authority. The proposal under the proposed local government reorganisation is to split it down the middle and to put it under two authorities. The effect of this on education and welfare services will be disastrous. Can this matter be looked at again?

Yes, I am well aware of the problem. The difficulty in dealing with this matter in the Local Government Bill at present is that the estate is split by a parish boundary. We would prefer to leave it to the Boundary Commission. I give the hon. Lady the undertaking that I shall give a direction to the Boundary Commission to deal with this matter as soon as possible.

Can my hon. Friend assure the House that when plebiscites are held in areas which are shown to be firmly in favour of changes which are not in the Bill at present, the Government will take them seriously?

It depends on how the plebiscites are taken and what questions are asked.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what his plans are for the improvement of Great Britain's inland waterways.

The proposed reorganisation of the inland waterways will contribute considerably to the desired improvement.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the proposed break-up of the British Waterways Board will make it far more difficult to have a regional policy for the renovation and maintenance of our canals? Will he give an assurance to the House that we shall preserve the present route network of the canals? Will he not announce urgent plans for advancing public funds for the renovation of canals in, for example, Derbyshire where we have both derelict canals and high unemployment?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that under the new proposals more money will be spent on new canals than before. [Interruption.] I do not know what would happen under any other government, but I assure hon. Members opposite that under the present Government more money will be spent on this matter. In regard to the maintenance of navigability in the existing canal system, regional water authorities will have precisely the same legal obligations as the British Waterways Board to keep commercial and cruising canals navigable. We intend to see that in the Statute concerned proper obligations will be put on all involved to maintain a proper navigable system.

May I assure my right hon. Friend that his reply will give great satisfaction to many people who have been worried about the amenity aspect, particularly boat users and anglers. Boat users number scores of thousands and there are probably over 1 million anglers who are concerned about this problem. Therefore, I hope that my right hon. Friend will go even further and do something to assist those areas which are now derelict.

I accept the tenor of my right hon. Friend's remarks. The proposals which we are suggesting will give better facilities all the way round. It is a recognition of the immense amenity value of the canal system.

Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that the real test is whether he is prepared to give urgency to the repair of the Bridgwater Canal which has been out of action for a very long time? This has meant that it cannot be used by local people. Would not the right hon. Gentleman also agree that, because of delay in repairing this canal, the possibility of earning foreign currency is denied?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for illustrating that the present system is not perfect.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the press- ing needs is for transferring water from west to east? Cannot the canal system be used for this purpose?

Yes, Sir.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his proposals for the breaking-up of the canal system are being universally condemned by every organisation and of the disgraceful fact that the proposals were introduced without any consultation? Is he also aware that at the conference the other day which was chaired by his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State there was complete hostility to the Government's proposals, except from two representatives from the river boards who are likely to be beneficiaries? Why is the Secretary of State at this late stage, again without consulting the British Waterways Board, appointing what his Under-Secretary is pleased to call a canal adviser? Is the Secretary of State—

Order. That is enough. We cannot have a debate.

The document I published was a consultative document. Secondly, I am convinced that the results of our measures will do a great deal to maintain our canal facilities. I am willing to be judged on results and not on false propaganda which has been put about on this subject.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will seek powers to create a statutory right of navigation on British waterways.

This will be considered in the light of present consultations about the Government's proposals for water and sewerage reorganisation.

Is my hon. Friend aware that before the General Election we gave a firm pledge on this issue? For the sake of the people who are interested in using the canals, may I ask when this pledge will be implemented?

The Government have this matter in mind. So far there is no evidence of waterways users suffering practical difficulties because of the changes in the 1968 Act.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what are the terms of reference governing the review of the compensation code now in hand; and when he expects that the review will be completed.

We are carrying out our General Election manifesto promise to review and improve the machinery of compensation to see that it is fair and just to those whose property is compulsorily purchased or adversely affected or blighted by road and development schemes. We have promised to make a statement when the review is completed.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are many instances in my constituency and in other parts of London where the local borough council is able to pay only £500 or £600 under a compulsory purchase order for properties on which there are outstanding mortgages of £2,000 or £3,000? Is it not time to make an urgent review of the Housing Act, 1969, to remove these cases of cruel hardship?

It is inconceivable that the legislation which we shall propose will not deal with that type of case.

Will my hon. Friend take note that there is widespread feeling that considerable injustice results from the present situation? Will he do all he can to speed up the review, with the idea of presenting comprehensive proposals as soon as possible in the interests of the public authorities and the individuals concerned?

Yes indeed. As many of these cases arise out of the building of motorways, I am anxious to have the report of the Urban Motorways Committee so that this may be combined with our schemes for compensation.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will now make a statement on the future of the Central Housing Advisory Committee.

The com- mittee discussed its functions and future work on 26th April, 1971. It was agreed then that future meetings would be called as necessary to deal with specific housing matters as they arose.

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that the greatest housing problems arise from the non-availability of land? There are many eminent men on the committee, and does not my right hon. Friend think that they could be used more profitably if the Committee were given the task of finding more land for house building?

This is one of the issues which could be usefully discussed by the committee. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his suggestion.

Why has the Minister, in chairing the committee, persuaded it to meet as and when necessary instead of at regular intervals, I think from four to six times a year, as it has done until now?

I find the committee extremely helpful to me as a sounding board and for the discussion of problems such as the fair deal on rents and the report of the Francis Committee. I am anxious to have the committee available to discuss these issues as they arise. My hon. Friend's suggestion that the committee might have a contribution to make on land availability is one which I propose to pursue.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has for assisting the provision of lorry parks in the Southampton area.

Southampton is one of the areas being considered by the regional study groups which have been set up to select sites for the national network of lorry parks. I expect to receive their proposals fairly soon.

Is the Minister aware that large lorries, including container lorries, park all night and every night in residential areas in Southampton, causing annoyance to residents, particularly when the lorries are started up in the early hours of the morning? Will he do everything possible to speed up the provision of lorry parks in that area?>

That problem is not confined to Southampton.

It is because we are aware of the undoubted nuisance to which the hon. Gentleman refers that we have embarked on a policy of providing a comprehensive lorry park network over the country which we hope will be completed within the next five to seven years.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are many lorry parks in Southampton which are not used, for the simple reason that lorry drivers wish to leave their lorries near to the guest house in which they are staying or near their own homes, and consequently they park on the housing estates? There are adequate parking facilities in Southampton.

That is an aspect of the matter which will be borne in mind.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what estimate he has made of the effect on land prices generally of sale of land by auction.

It is not possible to assess the difference, if any, which auction sales make to the price of land generally.

Is the Minister aware that the escalation of land prices at auction sales is probably greater than the escalation of prices of works of art? Will he consider a fair and practicable alternative to auction sales of land and ban such auctions?

I do not think it would be possible to ban auction sales. It is the rare, exceptional auction which gets publicity about the increase in the price of land, but there is nothing to prove that auction sales generally increase the price of land.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make a further statement on the action he is taking to reduce land prices.

I would refer the right hon. Member to the answer which I gave him on 16th February. Land prices are related to the supply of land for development in particular locations and I will announce further initiatives when I have the results from the measures we have already taken to deal with the specific problems of areas of shortage.—[Vol. 831, c. 407–9.]

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that according to figures published by his Department land prices were stable for the last 12 months of the Land Commission and during the last six months land prices were falling? Is he further aware that the same figures show that in the 12 months following the abolition of the Land Commission land prices have risen by 22 points? We all know that since then the increase has been steeper still. In view of this was it not absolutely scandalous to abolish betterment levy?

The last six months of the Land Commission were the last six months of the previous Government. During that period the demand for houses dropped enormously. There was a complete slump in house building. The price went up because the demand increased during the first six months of the present Government.

I am sure that my hon. Friend would like a constructive suggestion on this problem. Is it not true that most of the large developers stockpile land? Might it not be an advantage if planning authorities could do some long-term planning releases, thereby allowing developers not to sterilise and hoard land beyond their requirements?

It is with this in view that conferences have been called under our regional controllers with developers, land owners and builders to see where the difficulties are and to identify them in terms of land availability. These conferences are having very good results.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the price of land is now a great national scandal and that it was almost exactly two years ago that the Secretary of State promised to release more land and bring down the price? Is there the remotest possibility of that happening and, if so, when?

Yes. As a result of circular 10/70 there are some interesting comprehensive development schemes coming forward. There is surplus land from the nationalised industries, especially British Railways, which has been brought forward. There are forms of partnership being investigated between local authorities, developers and landowners. There is the Action Group on London Housing. Through all these activities more land is coming forward. But the demand for it in certain areas as a result of the increased demand for housing under this Government is enormous.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's answers, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment why a farm tractor, though it is allowed to travel on roadways, is not subjected to the Ministry of Transport tests.

Their use on roads is too limited to warrant it.

Will the Minister treat this matter more seriously? Is he not aware that far too many fatal accidents are caused by farm tractors? Does he not agree that farm tractors should be properly maintained so that lives are not lost in this way?

I do not yield to the hon. Gentleman in my concern for road safety. The two most recent surveys by our Road Safety Unit showed that only one-fifth of 1 per cent, of accidents within the areas covered involved farm tractors.

Is not only a small and probably insignificant fraction of that proportion of accidents due to the mechanical condition of farm tractors, and is it not in general true that farm tractors are better maintained than the average motor car?

It is most certainly the case that only a small proportion of accidents with farm tractors involves factors of mechanical safety. I say to the hon. Member for Dearne Valley (Mr. Edwin Wainwright) that if farm tractors were to be required to go on to the highways in order to reach the testing stations, there would be more farm traffic on the highways rather than less.

Does the Minister accept, on the broad general principle raised by my hon. Friend's question, that there is need for a review of the whole Ministry of Transport testing system? In that review, which has been promised, will the Minister give consideration to a wider use of Government centres for the testing of vehicles?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what requests he has received from Bournemouth and Christchurch for his approval to the early release of more green belt land for residential development; and if, in view of the present levels of land prices in the area, he will approve them.

No such request has yet been received by my right hon. Friend; but he will take both current land needs and green belt policy into account when considering any proposals which come before him to release sites for housing.

Does my hon. Friend agree that in the Borough of Christchurch the areas within the proposed Hampshire Green Belt which the Minister in 1961 agreed were of no value to the green belt should now be released from their restrictions?

It is for the local planning authority in the first instance to consider whether the land should now be released for development. My right hon. Friend will consider on their merits any proposals to this end which are put before him. I shall be arranging local conferences of local authorities, landowners, developers and builders to consider the land availability problem in the South Hampshire area from Poole to Portsmouth.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the average cost of determining the fair rent of a dwelling in the private sector at the present time; and what is his estimate of the total cost of determining the fair rents of all council houses in England and Wales on the basis that local authorities and the proposed rent scrutiny boards are able to make the necessary arrangements and decisions at half the cost currently applying for determinations in the private sector.

On the first part of the Question, I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the hon. Member on 21st February. On the second part, I do not think it profitable to make financial estimates on the basis of an assumption I cannot share.—[Vol. 831, c. 221.]

Is it not clear that, in addition to the extremely high and inflationary consequences of the application of fair rents to the public sector, there will be a heavy burden of administrative charges? How does that fit in with the Government's frequent pledges that prices will be reduced and public expenditure cut?

There is a later Question on the Paper on that specific matter, but I do not accept the assumptions in the supplementary question nor in the original Question.

I am grateful for not being a Member of the Standing Committee on the Housing Finance Bill. Will my hon. Friend explain to me why the Opposition say when Labour is in power that the concept of fair rents is fair but that it has become unfair now that the Conservatives are in power?

I assure my hon. and learned Friend that many hon. Members would be prepared to give up their place for him in the Committee on the Housing Finance Bill. We have been trying to find out the answer to the question he has asked but, although the Committee's proceedings have been of inordinate length, we have not yet had an answer.

If the Under-Secretary of State does not accept my hon. Friend's assumptions about the cost of assessing fair rents, what estimate does he make of the cost of assessing them, and why should the cost be met by local authorities and not by the Government when the Government are imposing this policy on local authorities against their will?

No doubt the hon. Gentleman, after innumerable sittings of the Committee, has taken time to read the Financial and Explanatory Memorandum to the Bill, which answers his question.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what action he is now taking to ensure that contractors appointed by Her Majesty's Government to demolish and clear prefabricated housing sites in South Ayrshire leave the sites in a condition which is not an eyesore.

The problems my right hon. Friend mentioned in reply to the hon. Member's Question on 9th June, 1971, remain and enforcement continues to be difficult. If the hon. Member has a particular eyesore in mind and lets me know, we will do what we can to clear it quick ly.—[Vol. 818, c. 334.]

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that almost every site in my constituency which has been clear of prefabs is a shambles because of a lack of concern on the part of the contractors, who on occasions have left conditions which are dangerous to children? Is it not essential for the Minister to introduce a follow-up procedure within his Department to ensure that cleared sites are respectable and safe?

I will certainly consider what the hon. Gentleman says. I have very great sympathy with him and his constituents in the difficult conditions which they are obviously experiencing. As the hon. Gentleman knows, there will be a transfer of responsibility for this operation to the local authority and perhaps he will find that more satisfactory.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will now issue a general direction to British Rail to seek to increase the use of the railways for transporting passengers and freight; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir.

I hope I shall get more satisfaction from my right hon. Friend's supplementary answer than I received from that answer. At a time when our roads are becoming more and more crowded, when we are told that the number of motor cars will double in 10 years and when the roads are made hideous and dangerous by freight traffic transported by heavy lorries, is it not sheer folly to fail to make as much use as we can of the iron roads which we already have?

It is always my wish to avoid being unhelpful to my hon. Friend. I would not wish to encourage the railways into carrying more traffic which they do not want to carry and which is uneconomical for them. On the whole it is the block train load which is the most suitable traffic for the railways. I regard this as a matter of management and not one appropriate for a general directive.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that his hon. Friend is absolutely right in putting forward the traffic difficulties which are being experienced, and does he appreciate that for the improvement of the environment it will be necessary for the railways to carry more traffic? Will he consider taking over the signalling and track costs of the railways and making grants to private firms for private sidings which would encourage them to send goods by rail instead of road?

The hon. Gentleman calls attention, as if it were necessary, to the fact that my hon. Friend is normally right. On the other hand, it is for me to point out that there are difficulties, including adding to the uneconomic traffic which the railways carry. I do not wish to do that because I think it would be a wrong policy.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many council houses and flats, including new ones, have been empty for the past six months or more.

Local authorities are not required to keep my right hon. Friend informed of the numbers of their vacant dwellings and I am not in a position to make national estimates.

Does not the hon. Gentleman think that local authorities should be so required? Is he not aware that a recent survey disclosed that there were 10,000 or more such houses at a time when Shelter estimated unofficially that there were more than 100,000 homeless families? Does not this suggest a state of affairs, as has been alleged, of anomalies, confusion, and miscalculation by Whitehall and to a lesser extent by local authorities with huge sums of public money being wasted?

I will certainly consider the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that local authorities should be required to keep my right hon. Friend informed. As he knows, it is for the local authorities to assess the needs in their neighbourhood. I hope that he will keep a close eye on what Sheffield is doing.

Will my hon. Friend take note of the demand from the Opposition side of the House that there should be less council building?

I was very surprised at the hon. Member's question and I note what my hon. Friend says.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what progress is being made in the establishment of housing aid centres.

According to my latest information 14 local authorities have so far set up housing aid centres or are in other ways offering advisory services of the kind that such centres can provide. A number of other authorities have similar schemes on the stocks. Some voluntary organisations are also active in this field.

While I welcome the progress in the provision of this new service may I ask whether my right hon. Friend does not feel that this should be a nation-wide service in view of the many people throughout the country, especially young married couples, who are in need of accommodation? In particular is it not more necessary now in view of the new hope for the homeless raised by the introduction of rent allowances through the Housing Finance Bill?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I have considered whether we should have a statutory requirement for local authorities to provide centres of this kind but the need for housing or for advisory services will vary from area to area according to local circumstances. I thought it better to leave it to the local authorities to devise the best means they can achieve.

What advice would such a housing aid centre, if established in Hemel Hempstead, give to sitting tenants of the development corporation who wish to buy their houses and who are now being refused permission by the corporation?

Perhaps the hon. Lady would like to put down a separate Question dealing with that.

Out of the 14 authorities to which the Minister has referred, can he tell us how many have established centres as distinct from those offering advisory services of a more general kind?

I wrote to 15 London boroughs with special housing stress last April. Of that number three have opened centres, eight have firm proposals for doing so and one tells me that it is giving the matter serious consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment in how many areas of the United Kingdom has photochemical smog occurred; whether tests have been made in the St. Helens area of Lancashire; and if he will make a statement.

Only the Atomic Energy Research establishment at Harwell makes systematic tests for photochemical smog. I have summarised the present position in a statement which, since it is lengthy, I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Dr. John Reay, head of the Government Pollution Laboratories, has made a recent report about photochemical smog found in the South of the country and that he reports that it has reached danger levels on several occasions? I want to know whether tests have been taken in the industrial North or North-West to ascertain the levels of air pollution in towns like St. Helens. Will the hon. Gentleman urge his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to do all in his power to reduce the danger of pollution by the greater use of railways in transferring the great heavy loads from our roads to the railways?

The hon. Gentleman has managed to put several questions into one. The answer to his point about the railways has been given already. As for monitoring of the air, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that those measures which are necessary are being taken.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the hon. Gentleman's replies, I beg to give notice that I shall seek an early opportunity to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Low degrees of various photochemical reactions occur in the atmosphere through the operation of sunlight on natural constituents. These reactions are intensified when man-made pollutants are present and the concentration of oxidants, principally ozone, is an indicator of the intensity. A high concentration of motor vehicle exhaust gases in strong sunlight tends to produce relatively high local levels of oxidants. In the U.S.A., levels in excess of 10 parts per 100 million have been considered evidence of photochemical smog formation, but the causation is not direct and the occurrence of such a level is by no means always accompanied by haze or reduced visibility.

On two days during July, 1971, scientists of the Atomic Energy Research Establishment measured ground-level concentrations of photochemically produced ozone at Harwell slightly exceeding 10 parts per 100 million. However, no occurrence in the United Kingdom of anything that might be termed photochemical smog has yet been reported to me. As urban air continues to become cleaner and sunlight penetrates more strongly, photochemical reactions may need closer attention. Research is continuing and I shall be watching the position closely.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment for which housing authorities his Department has made estimates of the likely average increase in rent of council house tenants under the Housing Finance Bill; and if he will publish details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I gave details of such estimates in Standing Committee E on 8th February.—[Col. 1437–8.]

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he said in his speech at Walsall that on the basis of his Department's estimates there will be many cases where a doubling cannot take place? What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by "many" Does he mean more than one-half, more than one-quarter, 1 million or 2 million? Has his Department made estimates of the probable rent increases for the country as a whole. If it has, why will not the right hon. Gentleman tell us?

As I said in my original reply, I gave some figures to Standing Committee E. If the hon. Gentleman studies them, he will see that in no case is there any likelihood of a doubling on the first determination of fair rents. The scaremongering campaign which the Opposition have tried to develop on this theme is the result of a document improperly received—stolen goods—by the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun). On the strength of it, the hon. Gentleman has sought to erect a whole philosophy of doubling when, as far as I know, there is no likelihood of this happening.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it would be helpful to local authorities if as much time as possible could be given to them to work out their figures? Is my right hon. Friend aware further that a very heavy burden will be imposed on local authorities if they have to do the work with their present staffs? They would like as much time as possible so that the advantages of my right hon. Friend's Bill can be worked out properly.

I take my hon. Friend's point. I am sure she will have seen that Newcastle-upon-Tyne has produced figures already showing that in almost every case a 50p increase would take rented dwellings over the fair rent in the first determination.

For all the right hon. Gentleman's evasions in Standing Committee—and we are sorry that he is not in rather better voice today—is it not absolutely clear that the increase in rents will be far, far beyond the 5 per cent. a year that the C.B.I. and the Government apparently find acceptable? In view of the fact that the Prime Minister is due tomorow to meet the T.U.C. for discussions on prices and inflation, would not it be wise at best to abandon the Bill and at least postpone its operation?

May I express my deep appreciation to the right hon. Gentleman for his concession that, far from doubling, there is just a possibility of an increase of 5 per cent.?

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is most important for the Labour Party to desist from issuing propaganda which tells council tenants that their rents will double, without making any reference to the rebates they will get?

I agree with my hon. Friend, and we must bear in mind that there could be human tragedies resulting from people being unduly and unnecessarily alarmed by the totally irresponsible scaremongering campaign of the Opposition.

Mr. Frank Allaun.

Sock it to him.

Will the right hon. Gentleman agree, as he knows very well, that the document in question was not improperly received but was given to me by a councillor, that I revealed figures which the Minister denied that he had, and that I would do it again? May I now ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will admit that the figures which he gave for some cities are for next year, 1973, and that he knows full well that his own Department has estimates for 1976 which will more than double the rents for each of the 10 regions of the country?

Come on. Tell us.

I am not enough of a lawyer to know for sure that the document was improperly received. Certainly it was improperly conveyed. I do not know the law governing receivers of stolen goods—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] The point at issue is that, while it is just possible that my Department has made an accurate estimate of what the increase in rents in 1972–73 might be, any attempt to achieve in a working document an accurate estimate of what it will be in 1975–76 must be highly speculative. Indeed, it is clear that the estimates that we have prepared for 1972–73 in respect of Newcastle are already far in excess of what is likely to happen.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's replies, I beg to give notice that I shall seek an early opportunity to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he has now concluded his discussions with the relevant authorities consequent upon the decision in Buckoke and Others versus the Greater London Council; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that when the judgment of the Court of Appeal was given in this matter the most damaging criticisms were made of Parliament: that there had been tremendous delay in dealing with legislation to deal with ambulance drivers, drivers of police vehicles and of fire vehicles? There has now been a delay of more than a year since that judgment. When will the Minister do something about it?

I think that before making a change of the kind suggested here, it is necessary to have full consultations with the motoring organisations and all those who are interested in traffic matters. This process is in hand. As soon as I receive the views of those concerned, a decision will be made.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what effect he now estimates the Government's housing financial policies will have on the general policy of combating inflation.

The reconcentration of housing subsidies on authorities and tenants who require help will substantially reduce the need for increased taxation which would have grown out of the indiscriminate subsidies apparently favoured by the hon. Member. This itself will be anti-inflationary since exacting taxation from the unwilling in order to make payments to people who do not need it is an extravagant practice.

Why are the Government imposing deliberate and compulsory rent increases of up to 25 per cent. a year when the Prime Minister has said that a 5 per cent. increase in prices is the maxi mum tolerable, particularly as the Minister is compelling local authorities to impose rent increases, when there is no need in many cases for an increase, and to make a profit out of their tenants for the first time? Will he seriously consider withdrawing the Bill?

The increases in rents which we are proposing are not, in practice, much higher than those which the previous Government—[Interruption.]—at the height of their deflationary policy allowed when they proposed, in 1969, that, without the need for ministerial approval, increases of 37½p might be made.

Will my right hon. Friend ensure that in any presentation of the social and financial effects of the Bill due emphasis is given to the fact that, for the first time in the history of housing in this country, a rent allowance will be made available to private tenants who are in need and that whereas right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite prate about social injustice, the Tories do something about it?

My hon. Friend is entirely right. There will be rent allowances for the first time in our history, apart from Birmingham which has already introduced them under progressive Conservative local government, for private tenants in need. In addition, there will be rebates for all council estates—not for 60 per cent., as today. This suggests that the 50p increase which we are proposing is not out of line with the 37½,p average increase proposed by the Labour Government in 1969.

Is the Minister aware that we know perfectly well, as he said in his original answer, that the object of this exercise is to transfer income away from the council tenant towards the national taxpayer? We do not need that explained to us. Will he take seriously the point that it will be exceedingly difficult for the Prime Minister tomorrow, when he meets the T.U.C., to appeal to it for wage restraint at a time when this central, sensitive and critical price is likely to rise annually by any amount up to 25 per cent.?

I find it difficult to believe that the T.U.C. would reject the idea that help should be given to those who need it most, be it in the extension of rebates to council house tenants who are not getting it today, be it in the provision for the first time of a rent allowance for private tenants or be it in the extension of more generous slum clearance subsidies for areas of stress.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the satisfactory nature of the reply, I beg leave to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

That is not a point of order.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the total estimated housing subsidy that will be paid to Worksop Borough Council, Worksop Rural District Council, Retford Borough Council, and Retford Rural District Council in the current financial year 1971–72.

Housing subsidies for 1971–72, including improvement contributions, payable to the Councils in respect of dwellings owned by them, are expected to be as follows: Worksop Borough Council, £174,000: Worksop Rural District Council, £74,000; East Retford Borough Council, £36,000; and East Retford Rural District Council, £67,000.

As the present method of subsidy is to be changed. may I ask what advice the hon. Gentleman can give to trade unions in my constituency which are faced with having their pay demands kept down to 8 per cent. whereas rents will go up by 20 or 25 per cent. under the new legislation?

I think that my right hon. Friend dealt with that point very satisfactorily a moment ago. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] One advantage of our national scheme, which I am sure has the support of the hon. Gentleman, is that it will apply to at least one of the local authorities cited by him which has no rebate scheme of any kind at the moment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will introduce legislation to require developers of private housing estates to maintain open spaces in those estates after completion of the development.

I have no plans for such legislation. As I told my hon. Friend on 8th December, local circumstances vary considerably.—[Vol. 827, c. 306–7.]

I thank my hon. Friend for the correspondence which I have had on the local problem which gives rise to this Question. Does he agree that there is a real problem when a local authority gives planning permission for development on condition that open spaces are maintained and the developer refuses to maintain them when he has sold the last house? Will my hon. Friend tell me who should pay for the maintenance of the grass and landscaping in the open spaces in those circumstances?

The real problem is getting the conditions worded right. The planning authority can impose conditions to provide open spaces. I know that there is difficulty in imposing responsibility for future maintenance, but there is always the possibility that a local authority can negotiate a separate agreement with the developer.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many acres of derelict land he expects will be restored in England during the current year; and approximately how much money will be spent thereon.

Estimates of reclamation in England in 1972 are being collected as part of the 1971 survey and are expected to show substantial increases. Expenditure by local authorities in 1972–73 is also expected to show a corresponding increase over their expenditure in the present financial year, which it is estimated may be £5 million. It is not yet possible to quantify these increases.

Has my hon. Friend any priorities which are applied to schemes of reclamation and improvement, and is he satisfied with the support that he is getting from local authorities?

I am satisfied that there is a massive number of schemes coming forward from local authorities. There is no question of priority. Any scheme which comes forward will not be held up by finance. We are prepared to pay grant for any reclamation schemes which local authorities put forward.

Is it true that, even on the restrictive definition of derelict sites, we are still creating more dereliction than we are curing?

I hope that we shall have a new definition of derelict land in the near future. A pilot survey scheme on this matter is being carried out by four counties. I hope to bring the new definition before the House shortly, so that surveys starting in 1972 will give a more realistic picture of derelict land throughout the country.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is satisfied that the Civic Amenities Act, 1967, is operating satisfactorily; and if he will make a statement.

My hon. Friend will know that the Government propose to strengthen the powers to protect conservation areas, of which 1,585 have so far been designated, by controlling the demolition of selected buildings in them and that provision to this effect is before this House; I have also proposed to introduce a new grant to help outstanding conservation areas.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Are there any or many local authorities in any part of the country which are not making use of the provisions of the Act to establish conservation areas?

Yes. I think that local authorities could do more to establish both conservation and improvement areas.

The Civic Amenities Act refers to the clearance of derelict cars and lorries abandoned on the streets. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why some of these vehicles remain for months and, indeed, years in working class areas whereas, in salubrious areas such as Whitehall and the Mall, lorries are not allowed to park even for two or three minutes? Will he try to get these lorries and cars off the streets in working class areas?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his estimate of the total annual expenditure by central Government on all forms of pollution control.

This information is not readily available, as much of the expenditure on pollution control is incurred as an element of other expenditure, from which it cannot be separated. Local authorities and industry account for a great deal of additional outlay.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that it is very important to know that there are enough funds for these purposes? Would he comment on the recent statements of the Royal Commission on the subject?

There are plenty of funds available. As to the statement of the Royal Commission yesterday, in view of the suggestion therein that there have been delays in taking action in this sphere by my Department, Sir Eric Ashby has asked me to make it clear that he did not say and does not think that the Department of the Environment has been in any way dilatory in preparing legislation to deal with the problem of toxic waste disposal.

Has the right hon. Gentleman taken note of the recent Stockholm Conference and its findings that, where there is a large profit in industrial complexes, there is a large amount of pollution? In the light of that, will he look to the possibility of having a survey whereby he can charge industry which makes pollution with the responsibility of clearing it up?

I agree with that principle. That new water proposals which we are bringing in will mean that, in future, those that provide sewage for the river system will have to meet the cost of treating it properly.

Would not my right hon. Friend reconsider his original reply? There is criticism that there is not enough money available from central Government for pollution control, because people do not understand how much is available and is being used. Is there not more money available than is actually being used? Would my right hon. Friend also try to ensure that the amount of money that industry is using for pollution control is quantified so as to bring the whole problem into proper perspective?

It is difficult accurately to quantify, although estimates have been made that about £400 million has been spent by industry on clean air proposals. But a great deal of additional expenditure is required.

The right hon. Gentleman said that there were plenty of funds. How much?

For example, in terms of water and sewage alone we have announced expenditure of £1,300 million over the next five years. There are many grants for clearance of derelict land and so on, and most of them are open-ended.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those of us who support his proposals were interested in his correction about Sir Eric Ashby, which is of some importance? Can he arrange for Sir Eric to make a statement about what he meant in his criticisms?

Obviously this is up to Sir Eric Ashby, but last April the Government announced that they intended to take action within the framework of local government reform. We were consulted thereafter by the Royal Commission. Before any of the recent publicity on toxic waste, correspondence took place between myself and Sir Eric Ashby in which I made it clear that, if necessary, I would use the present Local Government Bill to take immediate action. However, due to the co-operation of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Denis Howell), we can do it still more speedily.