asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he now intends to take further action in cases where local authorities have recently decided to stop schemes for the sale of council houses to sitting tenants; and what advice he will give especially in those instances where tenants have already been invited to enter into a purchase contract.

With regard to the first half of the Question I am reluctant to reduce the freedom of local authorities to manage their affairs, but the exercise of powers vested in them is a matter between them and their electors in the first place and their electors will shortly have an opportunity to pronounce. With regard to the second part of the Question local authorities must be the judges of the extent to which the public faith has already been committed. By the same token they should make sure that that faith is honoured.

I am grateful for that answer. May I urge my right hon. Friend to make that reply widely known to the council at Long Eaton in Derbyshire, where the sale of council houses is now being stopped although promises were previously made? Will my right hon. Friend make it clear that unless the Long Eaton Council proceeds with its promises to its council house tenants to sell council houses, the capital will not be available with which to build new council houses in order to provide them for those who are really in need?

I am deeply shocked by what my hon. Friend tells me of the attitude of the council of Long Eaton, and I hope that the electors of that local authority will take the earliest opportunity of putting matters right.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some councils have stopped selling council houses not because they are against the principle of ownership but because of the tremendous social burden that they have in housing and because of the added burden of building increasing numbers of houses which are needed for ordinary working-class people to rent? Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with progress in the public sector, which is very important in places such as Merseyside?

I take the hon. Member's point but, on the whole, experience shows that when a council house tenant is not allowed to buy, he usually remains a council house tenant, so there is no loss to the local authority by selling off the house. Usually it is a gain, particularly in areas of stress if they make use of the much improved slum clearance subsidy which we are making available under the Housing Finance Bill.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many convictions there were under the Litter Act, 1958, in the last year for which figures are available; and what was the average fine imposed.

In 1970, the last year for which figures are available, 1,777 persons were found guilty of offences under the Litter Acts. Information on average fines is being obtained and I will let my hon. Friend have this as soon as it is available.

Although he has not got the figures, would my hon. Friend agree that he would expect the average fine to be quite small? As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State yesterday launched a great campaign to do more about this problem of litter, does my hon. Friend consider that stronger action could be taken by the Department to try to do something about this very serious problem?

Yes indeed. My right hon. Friend has very substantially increased the maximum fine. In addition, he has made a very substantial increase in the moneys available from the Government to the Keep Britain Tidy organisation. At the conference we had yesterday, a number of important practical suggestions were made and they will be followed up by my Department.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that this question, like most of these things, is one of enforcement? Is he further aware that there are thousands of instances of litter being deliberately dumped in my borough and in most of the East London boroughs and that when enforcement is asked for it is refused? Will he do something to see that the law is enforced? That is the answer.

Enforcement is a matter in the first instance for the police, whose resources are limited. But it is open to any citizen, including the hon. Gentleman if he wishes, to bring a prosecution.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the maximum fine that can be imposed under the Litter Act, 1958; if he is satisfied that this continues to provide an adequate deterrent; and if he will make a statement.

The maximum fine which can be imposed has been increased by the Dangerous Litter Act, 1971, from £10 to £100. I hope that this increase, together with the other influences at work, will result in a visible reduction in litter, but only experience will tell.

Does my hon. Friend think that, either by publicity or by official advice, magistrates might be made aware that their powers are there to be used? Does he think it might be a good thing if they were given the alternative power to require offenders to indulge in a spell of clearing up litter as an effective deterrent?

Matters of the courts are for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, but I will draw his attention to what my hon. Friend has said.

Is my hon. Friend aware that those of us who went to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association conference in Malaysia last year found that in the cities of Malaysia and Singapore there was no litter at all because, I think, of the possibility of a heavy fine for leaving litter? Could my hon. Friend make inquiries into whether anything can be learned from that?

The maximum fine has been increased from £10 to £100. It is really a matter of enforcement, but also a matter for every person to think carefully before he throws away his litter in everyone else's back yard.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what consideration he has given to imposing a statutory duty on local authorities to recover and recycle industrial and domestic wastes generated within their districts.

Wherever recovery of material from industrial and domestic wastes makes economic and environmental sense, I favour the adoption of practical recycling policies. Working parties on which my Department is represented are studying waste disposal problems arising from the growth in the use of some materials, and their reports may throw fresh light on the practicabilities of recycling.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that it is extremely disappointing that only about 2 per cent. of the 14 million tons of domestic waste generated in this country each year is presently recovered? Does he agree that there is need to recognise that the reclaimer is the ally of the conservationist?

Yes, I recognise that. Under the local government reorganisation, instead of 1,200 authorities dealing with refuse disposal, there will be only 30 or 40, which will be able to install the proper equipment.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that a much greater drive towards the establishment of district heating, incorporating disposal of refuse as part of the heat producing process, would be a major contribution over the years if it were adopted as policy?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, work has been going on in the Department on this problem. There are snags and difficulties about it but certainly an advance could be made in this direction.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what has been the total number of improvement grants awarded each quarter of the last two years, by housing tenure.

As the answer contains a number of figures, I will with permission circulate it in the Official Report.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the rate of improvement is still lagging behind the rate of obsolescence, so that we are still nationally moving backwards in housing? Will he adopt a series of target dates for specified rehabilitation for all house owners, especially private landlords, who are the biggest laggards, as the only way to ensure that there is decent housing universally by 1980?

We are doing a great deal better than the Labour Government did. I am glad to say that 24 per cent. more grants were approved for private landlords in 1971 compared with 1970. We are doing all we can to encourage all owners to take advantage of the generous grants available, and in the assisted areas, in the North particularly, the take-up is extremely impressive—indeed resulting, in spite of local unemployment, in a shortage of skilled labour.

The right hon. Gentleman has referred to the assisted areas. Since nine months of the 24-month period allowed in the Housing Act, 1971, have already elapsed, will he take power to extend the period for the new intermediate areas announced last week so that they can have a full24-month period for their increased improvement grant availability?

I take the point but I am bound to say that had we not put a time limit on the grant, the take-up would not have been as good as it has been.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many convictions there were in 1970 and 1971 for disposing of poisonous wastes in England.

Until the Deposit of Poisonous Waste Bill starts to operate, it has been impracticable to make any meaningful calculations of convictions for the dumping of toxic matter.

In view of the new laws which have been brought in, is my hon. Friend satisfied that the courts can in practice impose fines big enough to prove a real deterrent?

I hope that the Deposit of Poisonous Waste Bill will receive Royal Assent later this week. I am sure that under that Measure the very severe fines and prospect of imprisonment will act as an effective deterrent.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will study the scheme devised by local authorities in Bedfordshire, a copy of which is in his possession, for a levy to cover the cost of disposing of permanently retired cars.

My right hon. Friend has already done so. I am afraid however that the benefits of the scheme would not justify the extra staff needed to operate it.

Although there is legislation, under the Civic Amenities Act, 1967, to try to deal with the problem, does not my hon. Friend think that the problem of old vehicles being left in public places in worsening? If he feels that he cannot meet the suggestions in the Bedfordshire scheme, does he not think it urgent to strengthen the law further to stop this practice?

Of course there is a problem, with about 1 million new cars being registered each year and a similar number being scrapped each year. As my hon. Friend suggests, we must look for remedies.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he will confirm the preservation order on the additional properties recently added to the scheduled list of buildings in the Timberhill area of Norwich; and if he will make a statement on the preservation of this area.

My right hon. Friend has today given another 15 buildings in Timberhill the protection of statutory listing, and the local planning authority is being informed accordingly.

Is my hon. Friend aware that his answer will give most people in Norwich considerable satisfaction, as we feel that the centre of our ancient city must not be sacrificed by compulsory purchase orders imposed by a local authority not for the public good but for private commercial gain?

Yes, Sir. My Department has worked closely with the local planning authority in listing these buildings.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the Second Report of the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution.

I did so on 7th March.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that many people feel grave disappointment at the fact that the second report of this commission on such a vital and important matter, issued 12 months after the first, contained only eight pages? Is he assured that sufficient back-up staff, with scientific and technical expertise, is available to the commission?

Sir Eric Ashby is chairman of the commission and whenever he requires further assistance he contacts the Department and has never been refused. This is a good commission. It was appointed by the Labour Government. While the second report came out 12 months after the first one, a great deal of work is going on by the commission all the time which will be the subject of other reports.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to receive the next report of the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution.

I understand from the Royal Commission that it hopes to publish a report later this year on its study of the pollution of estuaries and coastal waters.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take the opportunity to reinforce clearly the point he made a moment ago to my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. David Clark) that the second report does not represent a full 12 months' work by the commission, which has done a great deal of additional work? Nevertheless, since there is so much to be done so quickly, will he ensure that it has all available resources to get on with it?

Whenever the commission has approached me for resources they have been forthcoming. We work in close harmony with it and we will be pleased to provide any further resources it requires.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is satisfied that the ability of traffic commissioners to forbid local education authorities from carrying fare-paying passengers works effectively; and if he will make a statement.

I am not aware of any difficulty.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that some education authorities have great difficulty in permitting the sale of fare places to passengers on their local education authority buses? This practice of selling places to fare-paying passengers is forbidden by the traffic commissioners and it makes nonsense when half empty school buses go trundling around the countryside with would-be fare-paying passengers forbidden to enter them.

I have every sympathy with my hon. Friend. The matter is one which I hope will be dealt with in forthcoming legislation.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will take steps to enable an early start on the construction of the section of the M18 motorway between Hatfield and the West Moor interchange.

My right hon. Friend yesterday announced his decision on the whole section of the motorway from Hatfield to Wadworth. Construction will be undertaken as soon as practicable.

How soon will fresh proposals be published for the trunk road link between West Moor interchange on the M18 and the existing A18 trunk road?

We are looking at this and will publish the details as soon as we can, following yesterday's announcement.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is aware of the fact that the mileage of new motorways opened in the three years 1969, 1970 and 1971 was over 50 per cent, greater than the mileage expected to be opened in the three years 1972, 1973 and 1974; and if he will now authorise an early start on further construction in order to avoid a rundown in this industry.

There is no prospect of a rundown in the road construction industry. On the contrary public spending on the new construction and improvement of roads is expected to increase significantly in the coming financial year, as will be seen from the Supply Estimates 1972–73.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate that the gestation period of a motorway is longer than that of an elephant and that the dramatic drop in the construction programme and completions planned over the next three years is causing dismay to the motoring public?

That presumably is why we do not call them trunk roads. [Laughter.] I can assure my hon. Friend that we are well aware of all the complexities of preparing schemes. That is why we prepare sufficient so that we have enough to be getting on with whatever difficulties we come across.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what estimate he has made of the cost of building motorways from the Midlands to the Ports of Hull, Grimsby, Felixstowe, Harwich and Southampton.

Road schemes already under construction or in preparation will provide a network of modern high standard routes connecting the Midlands with these ports at a cost of some £300 million. As my right hon. Friend announced last week, action is in hand to accelerate schemes of key importance for access to the major East Coast ports as well as motorway schemes connecting Coventry and Leicester and Birmingham and Nottingham.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that reply, but will he realise that it is of crucial importance to Midlands industry, especially when we join the European Economic Community, that it should have quick and easy access not only to the East Coast ports but also to those in the Humber estuary?

That is why we made the statement we did last week.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the need for linking Norwich to the East Coast ports, not only those listed in the Question but Yarmouth and Lynn as well?

I realise the importance of these ports to that area and I am delighted to confirm to my hon. Friend that I shall be visiting Norwich to discuss the matter further next month.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the estimated cost of making the Hatfield to Wadworth section of the M18 motorway.

About £14 million.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the decision his right hon. Friend announced yesterday that the M18 motorway will cleave its way through the residential part of the Borough of Doncaster instead of bypassing the town, for no other reason than to save money, has caused deep dismay in our town? The decision is treated as a prime piece of ministerial madness. Does it not mock and defy all the Minister's repeated statements about his concern for safeguarding the environment?

All these matters were carefully considered at a public inquiry, and my right hon. Friend took his decision in the light of all the circumstances.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what discussions he has had with local authorities about urban transport systems, including computer controlled vehicles, monorails, pedestrian conveyors and travellators; and in which cities and towns he is considering the possibility of operating prototype and experimental systems.

The Transport and Road Research Laboratory has over the past year discussed with a number of authorities the scope for possible applications of such systems as part of the continuing appraisal of various means of urban transport. I have no immediate plans for experimental schemes in cities. Such projects could only follow an assessment of the results of the studies which have been launched.

Is it not a fact that it is four years since we had the Kings Norton Report on cars in cities? Are we not now faced with increased congestion from passenger and other motor vehicles in provincial cities as well as in London? Can my right hon. Friend say with which provincial cities he has held preliminary discussions and what has been the nature of the discussions held with Sheffield in particular?

I would prefer to write to my hon. Friend about the latter part of his question. As to the general issue he has raised, I certainly acknowledge that it is important. It is a subject demanding careful preparation before large sums of money are laid out on what might be rather speculative projects.

Since the right hon. Gentleman is on record as having talked about the need to improve urban environment and urban life, can he gives us an assurance that the proposals from the Tyneside Passenger Transport Authority for a new tube route through the city will receive early consideration and the maximum possible grant?

In answer to the first part of the question, "Yes, Sir." I would not like to promise the maximum grant at this moment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what steps he is taking to improve the working of public transport, especially buses, in urban areas by selectively deterring other traffic; and if he will make a statement.

Local authorities must decide for themselves on the best mix of public and private transport to meet local needs. If that involves deterring certain classes of vehicle, they already have powers to do so.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that there is growing anger and impatience at the spectacle of our city centres being cluttered up by cars and vans emitting poisonous fumes? Cannot he publish without delay his Department's study of urban traffic problems?

Yes, the urban motorway report will be expected this year. I think I must say to my hon. Friend that while I entirely share the view he has expressed I believe that there is a great responsibility upon local authorities, which have very great powers. Much depends upon their initiative. They will certainly have the support of my Department.

While accepting that there is a responsibility upon local authorities may I ask the Minister to consider whether he could give any more guidance to local authorities, perhaps in some cases financial help and in others technical assistance, because in many cases for a relatively small outlay really good traffic management schemes, with priority lanes for public transport, can have beneficial advantages out of proportion to the cost? I think the right hon. Gentleman knows that the former Minister of Transport issued such advice.

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I think he is entirely right in what he has said. The Government attached considerable importance to that advice and to imaginative schemes and we are currently looking at proposals about how these could be improved.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if, when he reaches a decision on the Dee Barrage, he will ensure that any development or reclamation of the estuary for new land or fresh water will not affect detrimentally the environment of Cheshire and North Wales.

The effect of any development on the environment of Cheshire and North Wales is one of the considerations which I am studying with my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Wales.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that this multi-purpose and imaginative scheme will not only prove profitable but will increase the beauty of the area and also provide amenities which the North West so badly needs?

It is an important scheme but until full consideration has been given to all the implications I cannot give a detailed comment.

Why should my constituents and the rest of North Wales be penalised by this tardy example of government by delay? Is it not a fact that the possibility now is that More cambe Bay may get a barrage first rather than the Dee? Just how split is the Cabinet on this issue?

I have not detected any split of any degree on this issue.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will now list the further initiatives taken by the Government about land prices.

I would refer the right hon. Member to the answer I gave him on 8th March.

The preliminary assessment of results of the measures already taken warrants an intensification of those measures.—[Vol. 832, c. 1429–31.]

Is the Minister aware that according to the building societies land costs now amount to over 30 per cent. of the price of houses and that over the last year the price of houses increased by an all-time record of 21 per cent.? Is he further aware that the National Federation of Master Builders is alleging that this may well prejudice the building programme? In view of this, will the Minister take emergency action now?

The 30 per cent. to which the right hon. Gentleman refers relates to land in the South East. Over the country as a whole it is something less than 20 per cent. I appreciate that in the South East great problems arise. What is emerging from the measures we have taken, from the working parties of local authorities and developers, is that the Government have for the first time laid down areas where development is welcome in the South East regional strategy. Not many developers seem to have read or realised the import of that: there is land available for development in those major and medium areas.

Would my hon. Friend recognise none the less that it is not only a grave problem but the gravest facing his Department? Will he accept that the release of land is certainly a major factor and that local authorities cannot regard this as a purely local problem? It is a national problem. Will he ensure above all—this would help a lot—that statistics are made available about how much land is being released?

It is not only how much land is being released for planning but how much is coming forward for actual building. This is what we are investigating and I can assure my hon. Friend that it is treated as a national and not a local matter.

Does the hon. Gentleman recall that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, in answer to a Question from my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West (Mr. Bob Brown) on 22nd July, 1970, gave as his reason for abolishing betterment levy the fact that it would bring down the price of land? This has not happened. On the contrary the price of land has risen to a figure never before known. Does not this mean not only that the policy must be intensified but that it must be radically altered and the price of land brought under control?

I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman is proposing that we should bring back betterment levy. I can assure him that we will not do that. We are taking steps to see that land is made available for building not only through planning but from those who are holding on to it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment on what day the Minister for Local Government and Development plans to meet the East Midlands Economic Planning Council.

In order to obtain the maximum possible benefit from the visit I have decided to defer it until 23rd June, when the economic planning council will be meeting in Nottingham.

When the Minister does visit the council will he look at the economic evidence which induced the chairman, the Duke of Rutland, to recommend that for economic reasons new industries should be allowed to come to Corby, Northants, even at the expense of Peterborough, Welling borough and other expanding towns nearby?

As a new town receiving London overspill Corby has some degree of priority for mobile industry within the context of regional policies. I do not think that further treatment would be justified at present.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to report on surveys so far carried out to establish the safety of box girder bridges; and if he will make a statement.

Design appraisals have been completed on 35 of the traffic restricted steel box girder bridges. Six of these have been strengthened to comply with the Merrison rules and together with a further 20 shown to comply have been freed from restriction. Strengthening of the other nine is in progress or due to start shortly. Appraisals of the remaining 16 restricted bridges are not yet complete.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that research at Imperial College suggests that the surveys so far carried out to establish the safety of box girder bridges are largely a waste of time and that the research is providing answers different from the textbooks assumptions? Does he not think that the strengthening of the important and complex structure that is Tinsley Viaduct—which has yet to be determined, much less to be carried out—must be called into question by those findings at Imperial College?

No. An article in The Guardian threw a question on the Merrison rules. It was Imperial College which immediately came out with a statement in support of the Merrison rules and said that it was right we should apply them.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the result of these delays is that a vital motorway bridge has not been built in Bristol, with the result that traffic has to be re-routed over the Clifton Suspension Bridge leading to massive traffic jams stretching back into Bristol, West? Will he consider the possibility of a temporary grant to the trustees of the bridge so they can remove the tolls and thus facilitate the flow of traffic during peak holiday periods for this summer only?

I will certainly look into this. What my hon. Friend calls delay is proper caution over the possibility of unstrengthened bridges.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he hopes to complete his discussions with representatives of industry on the question of secrecy in relation to reports on pollution and effluent by his inspectors.

As soon as possible.

How does this excess of departmental wisdom come about? Industrial competition is no longer a good reason.

We have had the debates on the Bill and we wanted to obtain the maximum disclosure, but balanced with common sense, and we are continuing talks to that effect now.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what research his Department is conducting or has commissioned into methods of restricting the spray thrown up by vehicles in wet weather.

The Transport and Road Research Laboratory is examining means of reducing surface water.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I am delighted to hear he is doing something about it but that I wish he would accelerate the programme, because there is a very considerable design problem about which I would like the Government to be laying down safety criteria as soon as possible?

Yes, I share my hon. Friend's desire, but it would be very easy in a matter like this to produce a lot of rather bogus suggestions which look like action but which could be totally ineffective and rather annoying.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he intends to publish the report of the working party inquiring into the rôle of youth and voluntary workers on the improvement of the environment.

I intend to publish the reports of all four Stockholm Conference working parties in early May.

Is it not the case that the report specifically says about the Night Assemblies Bill currently in Committee that it is potentially oppressive? Is not this the reason why the right hon. Gentleman is not producing the report? Can he tell us how long it has been in his possession, and can he give us an assurance that he will publish it before the Night Assemblies Bill comes back to the House?

I am afraid that the hon. Member could not be more wrong. It was only this morning that my hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and Development quoted publicly the views of this report on the Night Assemblies Bill and announced that he was accepting proposals it was making.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his right hon. Friend published to the Standing Committee this morning chapter 11 of the report and that the chapter refers to the Night Assemblies Bill as being a totally oppressive Measure? Would he give advice to his hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Wiggin) that perhaps he should withdraw the Bill in order that the Department might put forward a code of practice and conduct as recommended in the working party's report?

I am pleased that the hon. Member has made it perfectly clear to his hon. Friend that in fact there was no attempt to suppress the report—absolutely none. On the contrary, a statement was made to the effect that it will be published at the appropriate time. The question about the Bill is altogether another question.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if, following his review of the compensation code, he will introduce legislation to amend Section 63(2) of the Housing Act, 1957, so that compensation can be paid to traders left behind in areas depopulated by redevelopment schemes as distinct from slum clearance schemes.

We are looking at the problems of small businesses affected by new public works in our review.

Would the Minister agree that this distinction in favour of those affected by slum clearance schemes as against those affected by redevelopment schemes really has very little meaning, and will he not agree that he has to justify this distinction in the context of the kind of redevelopment taking place at Brentford?

Yes, particularly in the area of Brentford I realise the position, but it has an historical meaning and we are considering whether it still has a modern meaning as well.

I wonder whether the Minister might do something to speed things up. It is now 18 months since this whole question came up for review by the present Government. The Labour Government had already issued a report. Although the Secretary of State did not like it, we had got the report out.

I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that we have made use of that report and have studied it further in more depth. I am hoping for a report from the Urban Motorways Committee shortly so that it may be combined with our review of compensation.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the sad plight of owner-occupiers who are being offered derisory amounts by way of compensation in slum clearance areas, whereas their outstanding mortgages often amount to three or four times the amounts offered them?

I do not think I shall be letting out any secret when I say that our provisions will deal with relief for people of that sort.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will consider making an order that a learner driver, before taking the driving test, must have had a minimum of eight hours instruction by an approved driving instructor.

No, Sir.

I should like to ask my right hon. Friend whether, in the interests of road safety which is so dear to the heart of everyone in the House, as these approved driving instructors pass a very high-grade Ministry test, he will see that this is made a common factor in driving instruction to be more widely applied by everyone who wants to use a lethal weapon on the roads?

I am aware of my hon. and gallant Friend's concern in the matter of road safety, and I share it, but I very much doubt whether such a measure would be justified. It would be exceedingly difficult to enforce and would, I think, in some cases bear very hardly on the individual.

Has the right hon. Gentleman considered some sort of post-learner sign to be used for a year after a learner has passed his test? Is he aware that when I passed my test I hit everything in sight for the first couple of months? Based on my own experience I feel that it is not a bad idea, in the interest of the safety of post-learners and everyone else, that everybody on the roads should be aware of the fact that the post-learner is a new driver. I am sure this would be a great help towards road safety.

I am sure the whole House is indebted to the hon. Gentleman for the interesting recollection of his personal experience. I am equally sure that the whole House will rejoice that not everybody does the same as he did. To answer his question, I have considered just such a measure as he has proposed. I will do so again. So far I have been deterred by the amount of administrative work involved, because I have not felt fully satisfied as to the benefit which would result.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what further progress has been made in the planning and negotiations on the Channel Tunnel project; and if he will make a statement.

Work on the studies is well in hand. I will make a statement when the results are available.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that statement will be eagerly awaited by many people, who I think will give a wholehearted welcome to the proposals, particularly the fact that there is to be a rail tunnel? Is he aware that the tunnel will bring considerable benefit to many regions? Can he say what complementary measures to link the Channel Tunnel with regional infrastructures he is taking or considering?

It would take a great deal of time to answer the last part of my hon. Friend's question but I hope to make a statement on the subject to the House in due course. I thank my hon. Friend for what he said in the first part of his question. I know very well his enthusiasm for railways.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will direct the working party, which he has set up to review the present vehicle-testing system, to bring forward proposals for improving the methods of discovering defects inherent in certain types of vehicles, and passing on such information to vehicle-testing stations.

Yes, Sir.

I am very pleased with that answer. Does not my right hon. Friend agree, however, that as there are some faults common to certain models of cars, such as the rear subframe of the 1963 Morris 1100, which can collapse without warning, at great expense and personal danger to the owner, the two procedures for disseminating information to the vehicle testers are obviously inadequate, as is evidenced by the number of faulty subframes which are undetected in M.O.T. tests?

I am so glad to have given pleasure to my hon. Friend. As to the dissemination of information, one of the problems of the modern world is that there is such a vast mass of information available, much of it totally useless, that the channels for disseminating it sometimes get slightly clogged.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his estimate of the cost of land for housing purposes per acre in the greater London area; and if he will make a statement.

Land costs vary so widely in London that any estimate of average cost would not be meaningful. Because of the shortage of land the cost is generally high but I shall ensure as far as possible that the housing programmes of London authorities are not affected by this. I am also co-operating with several authorities in findings ways of making land available at reasonable cost to provide houses for owner occupation by Londoners. The main vehicle in this has been the London Action Group.

May I here pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon) for all his work in housing as Under-Secretary. He is promoted to a post of honour and danger, though I cannot believe that anyone in Ireland would ever shoot a Guinness.

I am grateful for that reply. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that available land in Islington is costing over £150,000 an acre and that houses which three or four years ago would sell for £5,000 to £6,000 are costing up to £20,000? What is the Government's policy on this ruthless exploitation in land and house prices?

The London Action Group is seeking first to identify where land is available for new building, whether by local authorities or private developers. When it has reported, as I hope it will shortly, I shall consider what action to take next to fulfil the possibilities which its scrutiny and reports should open to me.

But even if more land is made available, will not the price still remain exorbitant? If planning permission is given, do not potato fields turn overnight into gold mines? What solution have the Government to this price problem other than some form of public ownership, which for ideological reasons the present Government are unlikely to apply?

I do not think it is a question of ideology. The main point is to get more houses built. The more houses built, the less will be the pressure on the housing market.

Will the right hon. Gentleman now reply to the question put to him by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. O'Halloran)? The right hon. Gentleman was asked about land and property prices. He answered in terms of seeking to make more land available. Is he aware that if land is rezoned for building purposes that pushes up the price even further, as my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) has just pointed out? What action do the Government propose taking at least to contain the rate of increase if not to bring the rise in prices to a halt?

The hon. Gentleman's sense of economics is very curious. If more land is made available and more houses are built, the price is likely to be stabilised.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the progress being made in the consultations between his regional officers, local planning authorities and developers on the release of land for building.

Valuable contacts have been made in all regions and the difficulties are being tackled. This regional work will continue for as long as it is needed.

My hon. Friend is aware how vital it is to release more land, judging from his answers to questions on stabilising the cost of house building. I had hoped that he would have been able to answer my Question in terms of acreages.

My hon. Friend will know, as she represents Rochester and Chatham, that the Maidstone-Medway area is one of the immediate growth areas in which land is available if developers will apply.

As the Government's case for the abolition of the Land Commission was that it would bring down the price of land and provide more land for building, can the Minister tell us of any region where that has happened?

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman intends to restore the Land Commission, but it did no good at all. We are doing far better with the regional strategies and with the assistance of the local planning authorities.

What action is my hon. Friend taking about those authorities which are failing to release sufficient white land for development in areas where there is acute pressure for more housing, as a result of which house prices are rocketing? I have South-East Essex particularly in mind.

Every applicant can appeal to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. He has said that he will favourably consider appeals in areas of major growth or medium growth indicated by the South-East regional strategy.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will now take steps to extend the option mortgage scheme to give those on low incomes 5 per cent. reduction in their mortgage interest payments.

No, Sir. The purpose of the option mortgage scheme is to equalise, as nearly as possible, the benefits of option mortgage subsidy and tax relief, and not to produce an advantage one way or the other.

But if those on low incomes can manage to buy houses at all, they buy the less costly ones and, therefore, receive less help than the wealthy, when they should receive more. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many tenants are' now faced with very high rent increases and are forced into becoming owner-occupiers, which they cannot really afford, and therefore should receive additional help of the kind I suggest? Will the right hon. Gentleman seriously reconsider this proposal?

I do not think this subsidy is suitable for a discriminatory purpose. Its object is to put everyone as far as possible on the same footing—the people who pay tax and therefore seek relief and the people who do not and therefore claim the subsidy. The introduction of means testing would multiply by several times the cost of administering the scheme.

In the light of changes into and out of the tax bracket, particularly out of it under the present Government, will my right hon. Friend consider greater flexibility in the option scheme by reducing from four years the period which must elapse before a man can move into or out of a mortgage option situation?

I have already secured a reduction in the period in question within which a person can switch. I will consider any representations my hon. Friend makes, but I rather doubt whether it is necessary to go beyond what I have already done.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has had from the British Waterworks Association on his proposals for the reorganisation of water services; how he has answered these; and if he will make a statement.

The association has let me have its views on water reorganisation, among other matters, and these will be taken into account as part of the consultations on the Government's proposals.

I thank my right hon. Friend for agreeing that he will take note of the consultations. Is he aware that local authority councillors and officials are not very keen on having the waterworks taken away from local government? Is he aware of the great disquiet felt by many local government officials who fear that the whole of local government might break under the strain of reorganising water services while reorganising the whole of local government as well?

Under my proposals for water reorganisation local government will play a leading part in the new water organisations that are created. If we took the view that we should not make changes because existing bodies did not like to change, we should never have introduced any form of water reorganisation at all.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that a sensible step forward would be to look at the whole regional position from the point of view of local government planning and bring water services into that concept?

But the river systems do not respect regional political boundaries. We are talking about the control of the whole river systems.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what estimate he has made of the additional traffic on East Anglian roads likely to be generated by Maplin Airport and other developments in East Essex.

The effect on the road system generally of Maplin and its developments is being assessed as part of current planning work on the Maplin project; it is not expected that this effect will be significant on roads in the East Anglian planning region.

Is it not vital that new road schemes should take full account of this probable additional traffic, however large the addition may be, particularly in the Cambridge area which is on a direct line between Maplin and the East Midlands and the North of England?

I assure my hon. Friend that we are looking at this. It is better to conclude the investigation rather than for me to guess at the answer at this stage.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what steps he is taking to denationalise British Water ways; and if he will make a statement.

As already announced, the Government propose that responsibility for the British Waterways Board's waterways should be taken over by the new regional water authorities. Within this framework consultations are proceeding with the board as to the best form of management of the waterways.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but my concern is for the 600 or so miles of direct waterway which is useless for the carriage of freight and which up to now has been lost as an amenity. Will my right hon. Friend accept that possibly the best way to bring these stretches back into use is to hive them off to organisations such as the Inland Waterways Association which want them for recreational purposes?

All the purposes which my hon. Friend has in mind can well fall to be considered during the present discussions on the matter.

How do the Government intend to ensure the maintenance of the canal system for recreational and other purposes and the spending of the necessary finance if they denationalise the system as the Question suggests? Is the Minister aware that hardly any organisation involved in the canal system supports the Government's proposal?

I will not say that has been because of malice, but there have been some processes of obscuring the Government's intentions rather than shedding light upon them. The Government intend to set up regional water authorities and this will result in a great deal more money and larger resources being made available for the waterways.

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that there is one common thread running through this Question, the Question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Redmond) and the Question on land drainage—namely, deep concern about the democratic position and proper representation under the proposed regional water authorities? Can we have an assurance that my right hon. Friend's mind is not closed to the possibility of an intermediate authority under the regional water authority?

The Government's mind is not closed on this matter. Our aim, which I am sure is the aim of my hon. Friend, is to reach a sensible solution within the ambit of the policy which the Government have announced.

With the denationalisation of the British Waterways Board, do the Government intend to hive off the commercial freight services?

That is a possibility, but the future of the ancillary activities has not yet been decided.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what proposals he has for improving the roads connecting Nottingham and King's Lynn.

The City of Nottingham and King's Lynn are linked by the A52 and A17. The A52 is a principal road and is the responsibility of the local highway authorities. Three major improvement schemes on the A52 are in preparation and a fourth was added to the preparation list yesterday. From its junction with the A52 near Swineshead, the A17 trunk road is to be comprehensively improved to King's Lynn by the early 1980s.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, but is he aware that in this part of the country in recent years north-south communications have been raised to a high standard while east-west communications lag significantly behind? Will he add to his welcome announcement about new links between the Midlands and the East Coast ports and about this route an assurance that there will be a full programme for improving the flow of traffic between the Midlands and the East generally?

I am sure that there has been a major improvement in our proposals over the last few months. I am glad that my hon. Friend finds satisfaction in what I have sought to do.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what studies he is making of the increasing damage being caused to rural unclassified roads and lanes by commercial vehicles; and if he will make a statement.

A study of the whole problem of the effect of heavy vehicles on minor rural roads is to be undertaken by the County Councils Association on behalf of the local highway authorities which are responsible for these roads. My Department will co-operate in this study.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but is he aware that many of our rural unclassified roads and lanes are being heavily damaged by commercial vehicles using them as short cuts and that ditches are being pushed in, hedges ruined and verges desecrated? Will he treat this matter with a greater sense of urgency?

I assure my hon. Friend that it is being treated with the utmost urgency and that all the matters to which he has drawn attention with such eloquence will be considered. Undoubtedly, what we have to move towards—and it must be comprehensive—is a policy of restricted roads.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the situation is now so serious in the eastern counties that we are being nicknamed the juggernaut country? Will he bear in mind the possibility of a great deal of this freight being moved off the roads and on to the railways?

I very much doubt the last part of my hon. Friend's statement. I sympathise with him if he is now representing what is called a juggernaut county, but this problem is widespread throughout the country.

To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is satisfied with the current progress of house building; and if he will make a statement.

On a point of order. I am sorry the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Carter) has not been able to turn up, but may I ask hon. Members who study the subject to look at the February house-building figures—

Order. The right hon. Gentleman is out of order. It would be in order for him to answer the Question at the end of Question Time if he wished to do so.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make an official visit to Portsmouth.

I have no immediate plans to do so, but representatives of both Portsmouth and Southampton local authorities are, with others, having discussions with my hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and Development on Thursday, 6th April, and as the hon. Gentleman knows following a petition he presented to me, I have promised to study the points made in it.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the citizens of Portsmouth would welcome a visit by him at the earliest possible date to study at first hand the adverse impact of the planned reorganisation of local government? Does he realise that there is no direct public transport whatever between Portsmouth and Winchester, the proposed headquarters of the new administrative authority? Will he also undertake to give as speedy a reply as possible on the special rating problems affecting older urban areas such as the City of Portsmouth?

The latter point is being considered in terms of the future finance of local government. In reply to the hon. Member's first point, as he knows I have already visited Portsmouth. On 6th April my hon. Friend will be discussing local government reform problems with the councils concerned.

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what has been the outcome of the discussions he has held designed to ensure that football players born in Wales, who are employed by English clubs, are made available to play for their country of birth in international matches.

This is a matter for the football authorities rather than the Government. Nevertheless I recognised Wales' difficulties and discussed them with the Football Association and the Football League.

Better arrangements have now been devised. Largely as a result of the public-spirited approach of the football authorities in England, especially the Football League, dates free from League matches are being planned earlier and are now more easily available for international matches than they were in the past. This arrangement is applicable to Scotland and Northern Ireland as well as to Wales.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his reply will be appreciated in the Principality and that my hon. Friend the Member for Newport (Mr. Roy Hughes) and I particularly appreciate his efforts in this matter? Is he further aware that legislatively we know that nothing can be done, and that therefore his efforts are all the more welcome? I hope that this will present an opportunity for wearers of the Red Dragon in soccer to show the world what wearers of the Red Dragon in rugby have shown the world in their sport.

I am glad to have been able to do something for Wales.

I appreciate my hon. Friend's efforts to smooth things over wherever necessary. However, could he explain how his responsibility in this matter arises?

It arises because, at the request of hon. Members opposite who came to see me, I thought it right to speak to the football authorities on this matter. It is entirely as a result of their good will that an improved situation has arisen.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that we wish to express our appreciation to him for his initiative in this matter and also to the Football Association? Although there may be no direct ministerial responsibility, it is the view of most sportsmen that there is no higher distinction for a sportsman than to represent his country—and this applies whether he is Scottish, Welsh or English?

I thank the hon. Gentleman for what he has said.