asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on the Constitutional Convention.

Preparations for the Convention are well under way and I shall announce the date of the elections to it and the name of the chairman at the appropriate time.

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that talk of postponement is without foundation? Is he still of the view that the chairman of the Convention must necessarily be an Ulsterman?

I certainly have not chosen the date, and no question of postponement arises. There will be an appropriate moment to decide on the date. The chairman will be an Ulsterman.

Will the Secretary of State bear in find that if the cease-fire holds there may be great advantage in postponing this election to enable moderate opinion to formulate?

I shall certainly take everything into account in choosing the date. I have not got a date marked in the diary. I have always had in mind getting beyond the end of February and the new register. I shall take all matters into account. What I must not and would not want to do is to choose dates which are beneficial to a party. I must choose dates which are beneficial to Northern Ireland.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the great priority is to ensure that the uncertainty is ended, and that this can be done only by freshly elected representatives in Northern Ireland sitting down and discussing the matter together?

I agree that what matters in Northern Ireland is to get freshly elected representatives to a convention, and not to an assembly. That is absolutely right. I recall that in the past when dates have been announced for elections events have blown them off course. It is easy to be blown off course in Northern Ireland. Therefore, perhaps I may be allowed to choose the date in my own time, which I hope will be to the advantage of Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what progress has been made in consultation with likely candidates for the chairmanship of the Constitutional Convention; and whether there has been or will be any communication with the Eire Government about the choice of a chairman.

I shall announce the name of the chairman at the appropriate time.

I appreciate the answer that the right hon. Gentleman has given, but will he refrain from making his choice of chairman until after the first meeting of the Convention, so as to give the elected representatives an opportunity to express their view on a suitable, agreed candidate, or will he at least wait until he has had talks with those who have been elected to the Convention?

Under the legislation, this is one of the few things that quite properly, lie with Her Majesty's Government. After the first day or two the procedures will be a matter for the Convention. One of the best things I can do is to find an Ulsterman who, by his standing and stature, will be accepted by the Convention. I am sure that I can do this.

To reinforce what has been said by the hon. Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder), may I ask whether the Secretary of State is aware of the crucial importance of finding the right personality to be the chairman of the Convention? Is he aware of the danger that if he appears to be going over the head of the Northern Ireland elected representatives the possibility is that there will be no Convention, because the members will not meet under a chairman appointed in that way? Therefore, will my right hon. Friend do his best to consult, directly or indirectly, the representatives of the people to try to find a suitable candidate?

There is room for the existing parties which were elected to the Assembly to discuss with Mr. Blackburn, the Clerk to the Assembly, their ideas on the early running of the Convention, which will be in my command, as it were. I understand exactly what my hon. Friend is saying, but the choice will be Her Majesty's Government's. I do not think that people in any part of the Convention will be disappointed.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many persons have been the subject of exclusion orders made by him under the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1974; and how many have been refused entry into Northern Ireland under the powers of that Act or the Immigration Act 1971.

I have made no exclusion orders under the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1974 in respect of persons in, or attempting to enter, Northern Ireland. Immigration is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, but I understand that since the 1974 Act came into force three persons, all foreign nationals, have been refused leave to enter Northern Ireland ports of entry under the Immigration Act 1971.

Is the Secretary of State satisfied that he has the necessary means of control and identification to make a reality of exclusion orders when he finds it necessary to make them?

There is obviously a problem on the land boundary. Anybody who knows the land boundary will realise what I mean in terms of its length, the nature of the crossings, and so on. I have the necessary powers to exclude people who are found inside the area. It would be idle to pretend that there are not difficulties, given the nature and the length of the border, but I intend to carry out this Act because I believe that it is necessary.

Is my right hon. Friend prepared to explain the circumstances in which Charles Devine was released from the Maze Prison on condition that he left Northern Ireland, but when he came to this country he was arrested and sent back, and is now a free man? Does he agree that this undermines the operation and authority of the law in Northern Ireland?

The actions of the commissioner are not for me to go into; they are entirely a matter for him. He released Mr. Devine. There was no conditional release. The fact of the matter is that he was released and he eventually went back to Northern Ireland. I can deal only with someone who is concerned with terrorism within Northern Ireland. When the man came back there were no grounds on which I should or could have done anything.

Is the Secretary of State aware that there is still room for improvement in co-operation between the RUC, the Army, and customs officers in border control duties, and that this view was frequently expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) during a recent tour of the border? Will he have discussions with his colleagues in the Treasury with a view to improving the situation?

I think that the hon. Gentleman in that instance is referring principally to co-operation with customs officers. I am content with the co-operation between the Army and the RUC on most issues of which I know. If the hon. Gentleman has any particular incident in mind, I will look at it. In any event, I shall look at it because he has raised the matter.

Reverting to the case of Mr. Charles Devine from Derry, who was recently excluded from Britain, is it not a fact that the commissioner who heard his case in Long Kesh agreed to release him on condition that he went to England and then to Germany?

I must again make the point to my hon. Friend that there are no such things as conditional releases. There may be a factor that a commissioner takes into account. I must not comment on this matter, because of the legal nature of it, but there are no such things as conditional releases. Factors could be taken into account, and it is up to the commissioner concerned. That is all that I can say on the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what further consideration he has given to Northern Ireland's parliamentary representation at Westminster.

None, Sir.

Will the Minister say whether Northern Ireland representation at Westminster is to be made contingent upon whatever the Convention may propose or on simple terms of democracy?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Convention will be free to discuss all aspects of the political situation in Northern Ireland, but the Government do not see this as a central issue.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that no matter what the representation of Northern Ireland is or is not at a fixed moment in this House, it is the extent to which those representatives introduce democracy, especially for the minority in Northern Ireland, which will ultimately determine the happiness of the people of Northern Ireland?

I agree with my hon. Friend's opening remarks. What the Government want to see is an extension of democracy in Northern Ireland itself. That is why we place so much emphasis on the Convention and that is why we want the Convention itself to be a success. We hope that, flowing from that Convention, a form of devolved government acceptable to both communities in Northern Ireland will arise.

The right hon. Gentleman said that the Convention will be free to discuss all aspects. Did he mean that? Does he mean that the Convention will be free to discuss the repre- sentation of Northern Ireland in this House?

The ultimate decision will rest with this Parliament as to whether any changes are made in that regard, but it will be a Convention of elected Northern Ireland people, and they will be free to discuss all the facets of this problem.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that United Ulster Unionist Members not only wish to see but demand the same democratic rights for the people of Northern Ireland as are enjoyed by those in Great Britain?

I understand that. That point has been made very forcibly to the Government. We want to see the same democratic rights as appertain in Great Britain also appertaining in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what proposals he has relating to the level of border security at the frontier between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Great importance is attached to the improvement of security along the border, and my right hon. Friend discussed the matter most recently with the Minister for Foreign Affiairs of the Irish Republic on 19th December. On instructions from the two Governments, officials are urgently considering various aspects of the problem.

The Opposition recognise the great difficulties about enforcing security at the frontier between the Republic and Ulster, but does the Minister not agree that a very great deal of the arms and munitions which are at present used to destroy life and property in Ulster come from the Republic? Will he undertake to give very urgent consideration to strengthing security at the border?

The Governments of the United Kingdom and the Irish Republic share a common aim of eradicating terrorism. There is valuable co-operation between the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Garda.

What progress has been made in closing secondary roads in the border area, and how effective is this proving to be?

About one quarter of the unapproved crossings have now been blocked, but I think that the hon. Gentleman knows that there are considerable difficulties—topographical, economic, and so on—about closing some of the others.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he next intends to visit Dublin.

I have no immediate plans to visit Dublin.

When the Secretary of State does visit Dublin, will he tell the authorities there that Her Majesty's Government view with continuing dismay the sanctuary offered to people like Roisin McLaughlin and Bartholomew Burns, who have been implicated in some of the most terrible crimes in Northern Ireland? Will the Secretary of State say whether it is still his intention, if possible, to bring those people to justice?

It is the Government's intention to bring to justice in the courts those who have been engaged in violence in Northern Ireland. It is important, in the present developing situation, to realise that, while we all accept that to move outside the normal law is something that none of us wants to do, a return to real law and order matters in Northern Ireland for both communities.

In the absence of extradition, which would be the proper expedient between friendly sovereign States, is it not disturbing that the Criminal Law Jurisdiction Bill appears to be running into difficulties in the Dail? Can urgent representations be made in Dublin, particularly as co-operation between the armed forces and the police is improving, in order to ensure that the efforts of the armed forces and police on both sides of the border are not brought to naught for want of proper judicial process?

Extradition is obviously the best way of doing these things, as Her Majesty's Government have said. We shall be introducing our part of the legislation shortly. I have no comment to make on newspaper reports about any problems in the Dail, which is the Parliament of an independent country.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will publish in the Official Report such figures as are available to indicate the approximate numbers of people who have left Northern Ireland to reside in other parts of the United Kingdom or abroad during the last 12 months.

No precise figures are available but I shall publish details on the subject in the Official Report.

I welcome the Minister's intention to give details. Will he comment on the situation which newspapers have described, in which the campaign of violence seems to have ensured that, whatever the political future of Northern Ireland, it will have suffered by the loss of a number of skilled professional people and tradesmen? Does he not agree that this is also a reminder of the courage of those who carry on their normal working life in Northern Ireland during these difficulties?

Without doubt, one is amazed at the courage of ordinary working-class people and others who attend their work in the conditions of Northern Ireland. What the hon. Gentleman has said about violence being a factor in emigration is important. There are a number of factors, and we are watching the trends very closely. They are difficult to sort out.

Will the hon. Gentleman examine the consequences of the outward flow of persons on the economic future of the Province? The skills which people are taking with them are those skills which will be needed for the rebuilding of Northern Ireland. Does the hon. Gentleman realise that there is already evidence of a shortage of doctors and nurses in Northern Ireland and that some general practitioners who are retiring are not being replaced? Will he look urgently into these matters?

The Department of Manpower is actively looking at this matter. This is something which is exercising our minds to a great extent in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will take steps to ease the ban on the holding of more than one shot-gun for sporting purposes in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

There is no ban on holding more than one shotgun, but the policy of the chief constable in exercising his discretion to authorise extra guns is, in present circumstances, naturally restrictive; shot-guns are an attraction to the terrorist.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. When he decides on future policy, will he bear in mind that few, if any, of the many horrible firearms offences which have occurred in Northern Ireland in recent years have been committed by lawful certificate holders?

That is true. Sportsmen have been very responsible in the way in which they have looked after their guns. But, as I said, shot-guns are an attraction to the terrorist, and in the last 12-months' period for which we have figures—1972–73–281 shot-guns were stolen from private owners. I shall keep the situation under review, but I see no possibilities of relaxing matters in the near future.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will pay an official visit to the border towns of Strabane and Castlederg following recent bomb explosions.

My right hon. Friend intends to visit the Strabane area in the near future.

I thank the Minister for that reply. I am sure that the Secretary of State will concede that a visit by him to these two towns, which are in close proximity to the border and have suffered appallingly in bomb attacks, would greatly encourage the responsible and loyal people there, who have suffered greatly, both personally and in respect of their property.

The Secretary of State is fully aware of that—which is why he intends to visit the area again in the very near future.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, after the return to Northern Ireland of the clergymen who had discussions with the IRA in the village of Feakle in Eire, what contact they made with his Department; and what request they made for the release of detainees or change in the rôle of, or the arming of, the police.

The churchmen who met members of the IRA at Feakle and subsequently called on me did not consult the Government before their talks with members of the Provisional IRA. After the Feakle meeting, the churchmen told me of the views of the Provisional IRA, which were on familiar lines.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the concern of the people of Northern Ireland at reports that they did consult the Government, and is he aware of the hope of those people that he will continue to act only on grounds of security in these matters?

If that is what the reports said they were wrong. While I am very keen on my responsibilities for security and my work with the RUC and the Army, I do not find it odd that churchmen are prepared to stand up for peace, since that is what we should expect. As I said in my statement, all that I said at the meeting is what I have said consistently—that if there is a sustained cessation of violence we can end detention and I can remove the Army, in the large strength that it now is in Northern Ireland, back to barracks. That is the best way to proceed.

Will my right hon. Friend convey the thanks of what I believe to be many hon. Members to the churchmen who have taken the recent initiatives in Northern Ireland? Does he agree that they have been acting in the highest traditions of the Christian Church by reconciling people?

In view of my hon. Friend's background, I know that when he uses the word "reconciling" he uses it in the best sense. The Feakle churchmen, undoubtedly, will be seen historically to have been one factor in the events of recent weeks, but what has mattered far more than them and me and all the other people who play a part on the political stage is the strong feeling in both parts of the community that they want a genuine peace, and not something that teeters on from day to day.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the approach by Northern Ireland clergymen to his Department to approach the European Commission on Human Rights to appoint a representative to sit on a special commission to recommend parole or release for convicted murderers.

My right hon. Friend has no knowledge of this proposal.

Does the Minister of State accept that it would cause great misgivings and mistrust in Northern Ireland to involve an institution which has been used by the Republican Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) to castigate, discredit and demoralise members of Her Majesty's Forces when those forces are doing a great job in Northern Ireland and deserve the full support of the House?

The hon. Member is not facing the reality of the situation. I have given him a clear answer that the Government have no idea of any such proposals and therefore could not act upon them.

May I ask a supplementary question to what was said by my hon. Friend in a reply to an earlier Question?

Order. I am certain that it is not beyond the hon. Member's ingenuity to make his point in the form of a supplementary question to this Question.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The two Questions are tied. In Northern Ireland—and the question directly relates to events in Northern Ireland—a very small group of people are casting aspersions on the good will of the clergymen who have been acting in the context of peace. The Question relates directly to whether or not they have been carrying messages to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in relation to the European Commission on Human Rights. It is accepted that this is not so. Is my hon. Friend aware that when the hon. Member for Belfast, West appeared at Strasbourg in relation to a very important case proceeding there the evidence had not been published and could not have been known by the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Mr. Bradford)?

I am sure that my hon. Friend does not want me to intervene in a personal dispute between himself and the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Mr. Bradford). The Government are at present looking for a constructive peace, based on the Secretary of State's statement on Tuesday, and we believe that the basis for such a peace is there.

Will the Minister of State say what success he is having with the Dublin Government in persuading them to withdraw their case against British troops in Northern Ireland, which is before the European Commission on Human Rights?

Overall we are getting more co-operation from the Dublin Government on matters like the border and other sensitive areas. We want to do nothing which would disrupt that now.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what are the latest recruitment figures for the Ulster Defence Regiment and the reserve police; and what resignations there have been from the UDR and RUCR over the past three months.

During the three months to 31st December 1974, 1,048 men and 229 women were recruited to the Royal Ulster Constabulary Reserve. Over the same period, 78 men and nine women resigned. Recruiting to the Ulster Defence Regiment is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, but I understand that during the last quarter of 1974 462 men and 84 women were recruited into the regiment, and 275 men and 39 women resigned.

Will the Minister of State give an assurance that he will do all in his power to speed up the process of vetting applicants for both the reserve police and the UDR? Will he give an assurance that the reserve police will have the proper weapons to carry out their duty?

I give no assurance on behalf of the UDR, which is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. As for the RUCR, the vetting process will take place as rapidly as possible. There are outstanding 1,050 applications from men and 240 from women, which are still being processed. The time lag is to some extent due to the Christmas holidays. When these people are enrolled they will be reserve policemen and policewomen.

Since the UDR is an integral part of the British Army, will the Minister give an assurance that even if the Army is drastically reduced in Northern Ireland the UDR will have a significant and lasting rôle for the security of the Province?

The UDR will have appropriate duties in the event of any situation such as the hon. Member has described. Undertakings in respect of the UDR are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the situation in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement about the security situation in Northern Ireland.

I would refer the hon. Member to my right hon. Friend's statement in the House on 14th January.—[Vol. 884, c. 201–4.]

What means will the Government use to ensure that the ceasefire is not used simply as a welcome respite by the IRA—a tactical move in order to reorganise, re-equip and redeploy, so that it may launch fresh attacks against people of the United Kingdom?

I refer the hon. Member to the statement by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on Tuesday, when he referred to the fact that the Army was aware of the situation, that it was manning the border and was looking for explosives if they were being moved about, but at the same time that its rôle had been reduced and that this had been welcomed by both communities in Northern Ireland.

If, as we must all hope, the cease-fire continues to hold and the rôle of the Army in Northern Ireland can be reduced, is it not plain that the rôle of the RUC will have to be substantially increased? Does the Minister think that the morale of the RUC will be improved if the Government go ahead with their disgraceful attempt to cut the compensation awarded to three widows of RUC constables shot by terrorists?

I cannot refer to a case that is sub judice. We accept that if we can move towards a permanent cease-fire policing in Northern Ireland will become a major factor. It is the sort of problem that the Government will have to grapple with. I think that the Leader of the Opposition also found, on his recent visit to Northern Ireland, that the morale of the RUC is extremely high. The RUC wants to move into this new situation in which it can develop policing throughout the whole of the Province. I believe that once we get to that position, however difficult it is, we can grasp the nettle.

Has my right hon. Friend had any communication today on the question whether there is to be an extention of the cease-fire or the true period?

We have no information to date.

The Secretary of State is to be congratulated on his brave attempts to hold on to the fragile peace, but is he not aware that many people in Northern Ireland are disturbed at the suggestions which have appeared in the Press that a senior civil servant has been negotiating with the IRA? Will the right hon. Gentleman deny it, if it is not true? Does he realise that the IRA cannot be trusted to carry out its side of any negotiated settlement?

My right hon. Friend explained this point very fully in his statement on Tuesday. We are looking for an extension of the cease-fire into a permanent situation in which the matters we have just been discussing, such as policing and a new approach in Northern Ireland, can be effective. But in that regard my right hon. Friend does not go beyond his statement on Tuesday.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that at a time when millions of people everywhere are hoping that this fragile peace may be made permanent, any hon. Member who, by his sniping, encourages anybody in Ulster who wants to return to the position as it was in the middle of December is unworthy of membership of the House?

Not only in the House but, more important still, in both communities, the response to the cease-fire since its beginning has been tremendous. We believe that people in Northern Ireland want the cease-fire to continue and develop into a permanent peace. People in this country and Northern Ireland will not lightly judge anyone who brings it to an end.

Is the RUC being allowed to adopt a higher profile as the Army has taken a lower profile during the cease-fire? Are the establishment totals for the RUC and RUC Reserve credible in view of the likely increase in policing that the right hon. Gentleman has already outlined?

The RUC wants to develop normal policing, comparable with what is done in the rest of the United Kingdom. That is what the Government are assisting it in.

In view of the increasing co-operation from south of the border, does the right hon. Gentleman think that we may be approaching the time when we can have joint or co-ordinated patrolling by the security forces in Northern Ireland and the Republic, without prejudice to national sovereignty on either side, of course?

There is a great deal going on. Co-operation between the RUC and the Garda is at a higher level than at any time. I should not like to take this argument any further now.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he proposes to publish his Green Paper on Residential Development in Rural Areas.

The Consultation Paper on Residential Development in Rural Areas was published last July and consultations are continuing. It is expected that the proposed Green Paper on Regional Physical Development Strategy will be published shortly.

Does the Minister agree that it might therefore be wise to postpone approval of applications for major developments which would breach the stop line for the city of Belfast, particularly in the southern side of the city, as the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) has confirmed my impression that building sites are available within the city boundary?

That is not my reading of the situation, but I have promised the Lisburn Council that I shall not go further ahead with any of the proposals until the publication of the Green Paper.

Will the Minister bear in mind that, traditionally, there has always been a high density of population in rural areas in Northern Ireland, and that while we fully appreciate the environmental arguments we are more concerned with having the people living in the country than having vast areas depopulated?

The hon. Gentleman is talking about developments in the rural areas, and not the Green Paper on strategy. I am anxious to set down a firm policy. A Consultation Paper was issued in July, and I have had quite a number of consultations about the matter. I have arranged one for next Friday with the representatives of the 26 district councils.