asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps have been taken to alleviate hardship following the closure and reorganisation of grant-aided schools; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make an up-to-date statement on the outcome of his negotiations with the grant-aided schools in Edinburgh and the rest of Scotland.

Before I answer, I should inform the House that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is heavily engaged today in Scotland with the State visit of the King of Sweden. I am sure that the House will appreciate why he is not here.

The answer to the Questions is as follows. In the light of the discussions which have taken place between the Depart- ment and representatives of the grant-aided schools, my right hon. Friend has decided that grant to the schools that elect not to join the public system will be phased out over six years beginning in 1976–77. Amending regulations for this purpose will be laid before the House in due course. Discussions between the schools and the education authorities concerned are now in hand and the schools will shortly be asked to make known their intentions for the future.

For schools not joining the public sector, a six-year phase-out of grant should give protection to existing pupils at least until they have completed their primary or secondary courses. As before, it will be open to the managers of the schools to use the grant to alleviate any serious financial hardship.

It is helpful that the Under-Secretary has given us some idea of the phasing out of the grants to these schools. Is he aware, however, that many parents are deeply concerned about the shortage of school places for their children due to the reorganisation? Will he tell the House why, in these serious times of financial stringency, schools such as John Watson's in my constituency have been put out of business and closed down as a direct result of the Government's policy?

What happens to children who are unable to continue in the grant-aided schools is of concern to all of us. Discussions of a detailed nature on how many children will come into the public sector and the amount of resources that are needed are taking place at local level. In times of financial stress there is no justification for continuing a selective system of education which is subsidised from State funds.

Will the Minister give an undertaking that the general phasing out of the grant will take place over at least a six-year period in order to give plenty of opportunity to the children at these schools to stay on and complete their education?

I thought I made it perfectly clear in my original answer that the grant was to be phased out over a six-year period beginning 1976–77.

Does the Minister appreciate that his answer is very close to a motion tabled a few months ago by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor)? Does he appreciate that we expect to hear the Conservative benches congratulate him on what he has just said?

I shall be surprised if anything that the Government do receives the congratulations of the hon. Member for Cathcart.

Does the Minister agree that what he has announced has nothing at all to do with what we propose, namely, the maintaining of the real value of grants? Does he agree that what he proposes will involve enormous hardship to the parents concerned because of inflation eroding these grants? Will he also agree that the acute financial problems facing local authorities are a reason for abandoning his plans, bearing in mind that to transfer a substantial number of children to the public sector will not only disrupt the life of those children and their education but will put a further burden on the ratepayers of the cities concerned?

The hon. Gentleman is always very quick to leap to the defence of people who expect educational privilege at public expense.—[Interruption.] Yes, we shall be saving money. However, it is not being done for that reason. It is an educational policy that we are pursuing to get much better education in Scotland. We believe that this policy will work and we see no reason why there should be immense financial hardship because it is within the resources of the schools to take care of it themselves.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress his Department has made in its work on the Scottish Assembly.

My Department, in conjunction with the Cabinet Office Constitution Unit, is urgently pressing ahead with its consideration of the many complex issues involved in establishing the Scottish Assembly. As was announced last month, the Government intend to publish a White Paper on devolution in the autumn.

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Will he confirm that it is his intention to press ahead with the publication of the Assembly Bill as soon as the White Paper is published? Will he further confirm that he will have no truck with the absurd delays and prevarications suggested this week by members of the Conservative Party?

I confirm the first point. It will be the Government's intention, as soon as possible after publication of the White Paper, to press ahead with publication of the Assembly Bill. In relation to the other point raised by the hon. Gentleman I expressed some surprise during the weekend. I thought that the road to Dundee, in which town the Conservative Party Conference was held, had nothing on the road to Damascus when it came to conversions, but I understand that the position has again been reversed.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the very great and growing concern in Scotland, especially in the light of local government reorganisation, about the huge extra financial burdens and huge extra bureaucracy which some concepts of a Scottish Assembly could impose? Is he aware of the fears in Scotland that Scotland might become the most over-rated, over-taxed and over-governed country in the world?

The hon. Member really surprises me—although I ought not to be surprised. The hon. Member, representing as he does the Conservative Party, ought not to assume that the views of the Conservative Party represent the views of the people a Scotland. That is where the great mistake is being made.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a further statement on the outlook for the Scottish economy.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what proposals he has for further industrial development in Scotland to counter rising unemployment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the outlook for the Scottish economy, with particular reference to oil-related industry.

While the current level of unemployment in Scotland must be a matter for concern, the Government's vigorous regional development policies and the new jobs created as a result of North Sea oil continue to make the Scottish situation more resilient to today's wider difficulties than the rest of Britain or many other industrial nations.

We shall continue to take initiatives of special benefit to Scotland. As my right hon. Friend announced on 30th June—[Vol. 894, c. 326]—a further 200,000 sq. ft. of advance factory space is to be provided, while our decision to set up the Scottish Development Agency will be a major factor in creating new investment and employment.

Does the Minister agree that the outlook for school leavers is very bleak at present? Can he give any idea whatsoever of his estimate of the figure which unemployment will reach during 1976?

No. I think the hon. Gentleman knows that it has been the practice of successive Governments not to make forecasts of unemployment. On the first point, I recognise that this is a serious problem and we are doing a number of things, through the Training Services Agency and in other ways, to encourage employers to take on school leavers when the summer holidays start.

Does the Minister accept that in view of the mounting level of unemployment it would be extremely valuable if the Government were to insist that oil companies and oil-related companies bought at least 50 per cent. of their goods from firms domiciled in Scotland?

We have already gone a very long way towards that. The proportion of oil-related equipment which is bought in the United Kingdom—and, of course, most of that is bought in Scotland—has risen in the last year quite substantially. However, I agree that there is a lot more to be done in this field. That is why we have moved the Offshore Supplies Office to Glasgow and why we strengthened it to get more of these jobs for Scotland.

While being heartened by the Minister's last remark, may I ask him whether he is aware that there is the greatest worry about the future of oil-related industries in Scotland, so much so that there is a delegation from the north of Scotland in the House at this moment to discuss this very matter with hon. Members? In my constituency there is a module building site at which, if no further orders are forthcoming in the near future, there will be substantial redundancies. Will the Minister be prepared to speak to his colleagues in the Department of Energy to try to ensure that there is more work related to the United Kingdom in our oil-related industries than there is at present?

On the latter point, I have already done that. As I have said, we are very anxious to get the maximum amount of oil-related work for Scotland, and particularly from West-Central Scotland to provide a better regional balance within Scotland. On the first point, I have already arranged to meet the delegation tomorrow.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what studies his Department has made of the consequences for needy consumers of the practice of the electricity authority in demanding advance payments, because of belated payment of accounts, before reconnecting the electricity supply; and if he will make a statement.

Following a study in 1972–73 by my Department together with the gas and electricity boards, the Association of Directors of Social Work and the Department of Health and Social Security, a memorandum of guidance on dealing with fuel debts was circulated to their respective local officials with the object of increasing co-operation between them in dealing with bad debt cases. The electricity boards have a statutory right to demand security deposits.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have nothing but appreciation for the electricity board officials in my constituency in their effort to recover arrears from defaulting consumers? However, is it necessary to ask, for example, for the payment of a debt and a quarter's advance payment, in the region of £40, from persons who are sick or are unemployed? That is not a very suitable solution. Has my right hon. Friend considered the installation of burglar-proof meters, so that we know that consumers will pay before they have electricity supplies?

In appropriate cases prepayment meters can be installed. There is a distinction to be drawn here between the had payer, who is a bad payer simply as that, and people who have fallen into arrears for perfectly legitimate reasons of illness and so on. In the latter cases, of course, an approach to the social work department can normally provide some kind of solution to this problem. That is what the earlier consultations I have mentioned were meant to provide. However, I am very willing, with new local authorities having come into operation, to remind local authorities now, in view of my hon. Friend's Question, of the necessity to get the kind of local co-operation which will deal with legitimate cases of people falling into arrear through no real fault of their own.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the last part of his reply will be warmly welcomed? Many of us feel that in the light of local government reorganisation there is a need to update the advice. The new social work authority in the Border area has already expressed concern to me about the practice of the electricity board in regard to demanding large deposits and in declining part payment of debts, which seems a sensible thing to accept and something that it ought to be doing.

I shall certainly look into the latter point. However, the real answer is to have proper local consultation and co-operation. It will not solve all the problems but it will help considerably. Bad debts are a serious problem for the electricity boards. In so far as they arise through people just not being willing to face responsibilities even when they can, they fall on other consumers.

Does the Minister accept that there are many people on low incomes, particularly old people, who find it extremely difficult to run their electricity supplies with account meters? Why are the electricity boards set so strongly against some form of prepayment meters, perhaps with the use of tokens instead of coins?

As I say, in appropriate cases prepayment meters can be installed, but they have security problems. The South of Scotland Electricity Board is hoping soon to introduce two-monthly rather than quarterly bills, and perhaps monthly billing. There are various schemes, such as buying stamps and so on, which help consumers to save up, as it were, and not be faced with a bill all at once. A lot of work has been done on this problem, but it is a serious one for people on low incomes at a time of inflation.

While agreeing with the Minister's distinction between bad debtors and those who fall into arrear through no fault of their own and cannot pay their bills, may I ask whether he accepts that there is no justification for the boards demanding advance payments from the latter category, irrespective of whether the person concerned has thought of approaching or been able to approach his social work department?

If there are cases in which an electricity board has been unreasonable in demanding this deposit—which the boards are entitled to demand—I would hope to hear about them. I think that in most cases the social work department can help to clear up the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether there was an increase or decrease in the number of cars using the Forth Road Bridge in March 1975 as compared with March 1974.

The number of cars and commercial vehicles under 30 cwt, which are counted as a single category, rose from 536,000 in March 1974 to 589,000 in March 1975.

Those figures are to some extent a little more encouraging than those indicated some weeks ago. Is the Minister aware, however, that on the Severn Bridge, where the toll charge for a car is 12p, one can purchase a book of 50 tickets with a 10 per cent. reduction and on the Tamar Bridge, where the toll charge is 10p for a car, one can purchase a book of 20 tickets at half price? Therefore, as a first step towards the abolition of toll charges, will my right hon. Friend encourage the Forth Road Bridge authority to introduce some concessions of either 10 per cent. or 15 per cent. for regular users purchasing books of 40 tickets, which are available at present, which would produce an increase in local traffic and thus help local commuters between Fife and Edinburgh?

I think that any proposals of that sort would have to come from the Forth Road Bridge Joint Board in the first instance. If the board were to put such proposals to me, I would consider them.

Does the Minister agree that if season tickets or concessionary tickets for regular users were allowed, the other traffic would be able to make the crossing more quickly? I happen to know that a distinguished visitor who was going to Fife last weekend was held up for a long time before crossing the bridge.

I dare say that it would speed up the traffic, but it would also reduce the revenue and that must be taken into account.

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the imposition of tolls on road bridges may have an adverse effect on the Government's energy-saving measures, as the tolls might well discourage the use of bridges by cars and lead to the use of additional petrol? Will he get rid of tolls on bridges, as I think the Labour Government said they would do in 1964?

I have already made clear on previous occasions that I see no prospect at the moment of abolishing tolls altogether. The fact is that even with the tolls it is less expensive to use the bridges than to go the long way round.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why at vast expense the number of tolls has been increased by six and the number of people mantling them has remained the same, so that a majority of the tolls are normally shut, apparently regardless of the volume of traffic such as it to be found at the Royal Highland Show at Ingleston?

I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman has raised this question with me before. I think the answer was that it was his Government who did it. However, if we are responsible in any way, I shall look into the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consultations he has had with the regional councils concerning the distribution formula for rate support grant; and if he will make a statement.

For the 1975–76 settlement the usual consultations took place through the Local Government Finance (Scotland) Working Party. It has never been the practice to consult local authorities individually.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that Dumfries and Galloway have lost over £2 million in rate support grant on account of the new distribution formula, which has pushed up the rates so that there has been a 150 per cent. increase? Will he say why rates in Scotland have not been cushioned in the same way as they were cushioned in England last year? Is it not time to take action, bearing in mind the anger of the ratepayers?

It is true that the new distribution formula has meant that the Dumfries and Galloway region has had a comparative reduction in the rate support grant. That was a deliberate action because it was felt by the working party that Dumfries and Galloway had done rather well in the past. Even with these changes, the level of rates in the hon. Gentleman's area is still substantially less than in Scotland as a whole.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will call for a report on complaints about the conduct of the police at the National Front meeting in Glasgow on 24th May; and if he will make a statement.

I have studied carefully the report on the incident of 24th May which I received on 29th May from the Chief Constable of Strathclyde. The investigation of the complaints that have been made is, under present arrangements, a matter for the chief constable, subject to reference to the procurator fiscal in relation to those that involve criminal charges.

I recognise that in general the great majority of the police on the great majority of occasions provide a first-class public service and that they do so very often in difficult circumstances, but does my hon. Friend realise that on this occasion allegations of police misconduct were supported by many responsible members of the public and the Press? Would it not be fairer to the public, to the complainants and to the police if complaints of this nature were made the subject of a public inquiry instead of putting the police in the rather invidious position of having to act as judge and jury in cases of complaint against themselves?

I think that we should keep this matter in proper perspective. The approaches to my Department from the people to whom my hon. Friend has referred total only 19. The House will appreciate that there are many charges still pending and that these matters will be dealt with in the courts in the full view of public opinion.

As regards the position of investigation into complaints against the police, the House will appreciate that in England and Wales my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department is at present conducting discussions with the police authorities. We have an undertaking with the police representatives in Scotland that if we move in that direction we shall consult them on the matter of complaints against the police. There is to an extent an independent element in the Scottish investigation in that in any prosecutions that arise the procurator fiscal is the deciding factor.

Is the Minister aware that one of those who took part in this disgraceful affair was a former Conservative candidate, and that the Conservative Party has done nothing to disown him?

When I look at the SNP bench, I note that former Conservative candidates find themselves in the strangest places.

Is it not the primary duty of the police to protect people? Did they not do so very successfully on this occasion? Is it not a fact that the majority of people in Glasgow and the surrounding district are grateful for the way in which the police behaved on this difficult occasion?

I do not want to be seen to be taking sides in the matter in view of the fact that court proceedings are pending, but the appreciation of the people of Glasgow, and the people of Scotland as a whole, as regards the way in which our police in Scotland go about their duties in preserving law and order must be placed on record. We have a duty to uphold that situation.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that it is precisely because so many people accept that the police have been extremely good in the handling of public demonstrations in Glasgow—and many of the people who would admit that would be the demonstrators who were involved on the occasion in question—that something appears to have gone so wrong on this occasion, and that it would be in the interests of the police if there were to be a public inquiry?

The Chief Constable of Strathclyde appointed the deputy chief constable of another police force to investigate the complaints that were made. These matters will be discussed in public when the trials that are pending come before the courts, probably in September.

In view of the charges that are pending and in view of the disgraceful and uncalled-for sniping at the police today, will the Minister give us the simple figures and statistics, bearing in mind the allegations of police brutality? How many of the police received hospital and medical treatment after the event and how many of the demonstrators received such treatment? Does not the Minister think that it would help to give a proper indication of what happened if he would give us these figures which he knows and which are available?

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman should get over-excited about this matter. There is no indication in any of the questions that have been asked from either side of the House that allegations are being made against the police. As regards the hon. Gentleman's point about statistics, I could not answer that question without notice. It is not fair to ask such detailed questions without giving a Minister notice of the statistics that are required. I give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that I shall write to him and give him the statistics if they are available.

Bearing in mind the colossal job that the Glasgow police undertake and what they did on this particular Saturday night, does my hon. Friend understand that as a Glasgow Member I resent the fact that policemen who are normally on duty in my constituent were tied up at Kingston Hall in taking care of 13 members of the National Front?

It has to be said that the use of police manpower is a matter for the chief constable and that the way in which he deploys his force is entirely up to him. Deployment should not be the subject of Government direction or intervention.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that trustees' accounts of charge and discharge, statements of intromissions and other documents prepared by or for trustees in Scotland are more elaborate than those required to be kept by or for trustees in England and Wales; and whether he will take steps to simplify and cheapen the Scottish system of keeping trustees' accounts.

I am not aware of any general dissatisfaction with the present arrangements.

Is the Minister aware that, although the Scottish legal system has many advantages over the English legal system, the English system makes it easier and much cheaper for trusts to be administered? I speak with experience as a trustee on each side of the border.

Yes, I accept that matters such as the accounts and the affairs of trustees are made much more elaborate under the Scottish legal system. However, we are not aware of any particular difficulties. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman has any particular case in mind and if he cares to write to me, I shall consider the matter and help him all I can.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will pay an official visit to the Borders.

My right hon. Friend has no immediate plans to do so.

That answer will be received with regret by my constituents, who were hoping to have an opportunity to ask the Secretary of State about the savage increases in rates in the Borders area and to hear his explanation.

Of course, there have been increases in rates in the Borders and elsewhere, but some of the increases are a direct result of evening up the situation in one area compared with another. In some border areas the rate poundage was only 20p or 30p in the pound. In those circumstances I would have been astonished if there had not been a substantial increase in rates this year.

Will the Minister accept that there are serious problems in the textile industry on the borders of South-West Scotland? Is he aware that many representations have been made to the Secretary of State for Trade about the use of Scottish names for overseas goods imported into the United Kingdom? This is an increasing problem and we are gravely concerned about the situation.

Representations to that effect have been made to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and I have seen reports of that meeting. We in the Scottish Office obviously take an interest in the matter, and I shall pursue the point.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland, what is the estimated number of new houses which would have to be built in a catchment area where the existing primary school is full before a new school is built.

The number of new school places required as a result of new housing development varies according to circumstances and is affected, for example, both by geographical location and by the type of housing.

That is a somewhat disappointing reply. Is not the Minister aware that one housing development is being refused on the ground that no school places are available and that unless a new school is built in the area progress will come to a standstill? Is not this a highly unsatisfactory position?

There are indicators of planning provision for schools. In the first instance it is a matter for local authorities when drawing up plans for an area with housing schemes, whether public or private, to put up for discussion subjects such as school provision. If the right hon. Lady has a problem in her constituency which she would like to raise with me, I shall be glad to discuss the matter or to correspond with her about it.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will pay an official visit to the industrial estates in Dundee.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has for increasing employment prospects in Dundee.

I visited Dundee on 23rd June, when I had wide-ranging discussions on the unemployment situation with deputations from the district council and other local organisations. On 30th June, in answer to the hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Doig), my right hon. Friend was pleased to announce the allocation of a 20,000 sq. ft. advance factory for Dundee.—[Vol. 894, c. 326.]

I am grateful for that information most of which is already known to me and to others. Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me that in the period since his visit to Dundee there have been continuing redundancies and the threatened redundancies at NCR have now taken place? Will he now state when the proposed Civil Service jobs within the estimated figure of 80 to 100 will be announced in detail and when they will take effect in the form of employment? Is he also aware that the helpful suggestion by the Government to deal with redundancies represents a drop in the ocean compared with the loss of industrial jobs affecting the constituency?

I do not disagree with the proposition that the comparatively small number of Civil Service jobs falls far short of any solution to Dundee's problem. I have never pretended that it provided a solution. I hope that details will be announced within the next week or two and that jobs will be taken to Dundee as rapidly as possible thereafter. The situation in Dundee is worrying and a good deal of it is reflected in the general state of the economy. That is why I had to make clear in Dundee, as I do now, that the answer to the problem is to improve the general health of the economy. That is what the Government are attempting to do.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that what is necessary above all else is to grant special area status to Dundee to allow it to compete on equal terms with other areas throughout the country in order to attract sufficient jobs to replace the large number of jobs which are being lost in the city of Dundee?

I have already said that I shall pursue that proposal. I am bound to say that given the comparatively small margin between special development area incentives and ordinary development area incentives, which dates from the Industry Act 1972, I do not think my hon. Friend's suggestion would make a substantial difference to the situation. I shall pursue the point.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will undertake a survey to determine which of the areas of multiple deprivation, as defined in the Department of Environment report "Census Indicators of Urban Deprivation" are also areas of educational deprivation, taking into account such factors as staffing shortages, part-time education and temporary accommodation.

I do not propose to undertake a survey for this purpose. I keep a close watch on the problems of staff shortages, part-time education and temporary accommodaion and am aware of the areas in which they occur.

Does the Minister agree, however, that there is an urgent need to define areas of educational deprivation since recent reports have shown that there is a close correlation between environmental deprivation and educational deprivation? Such a survey would readily identify those areas and point to remedial action which could be taken by the Government. Does the hon. Gentleman also agree that in face of existing evidence the Government's cut-back in expenditure on the school building programme and in other educational spheres shows up in a very bad light indeed?

I accept that there is a relationship between urban deprivation and educational deprivation, but the hon. Lady misunderstands the problem if she thinks that we do not know the areas of educational deprivation or have no understanding of them. There is no instant remedy for the problems in those areas, and it would be wrong to suggest otherwise. The Government are still spending more on education in the current financial year than has been spent in previous years. We shall do all we can to see that what money is available is used to remedy deprivation.

Is my hon. Friend aware that one of the areas that is well known for educational deprivation is North Forgewood, Motherwell? Will he consider in such areas making money available for special proposals to improve relations between schools and local communities, which is often a source of difficulty?

That is an interesting suggestion, but we must accept that there are dangerous teacher shortages in areas of educational deprivation. It is a problem which has bedevilled the Scottish education system for a decade. Every effort has been made to try to get teachers to go to areas where there is a shortage of staff. The additional sum of £1¼ million made available by the Government to attract teachers into areas suffering staff shortages is still available, as is other money, if the teachers will get down to negotiating a system of incentive payments to help transfer teachers to those areas.

Does the Minister realise that all Conservative Members wish to dissociate themselves from the disgraceful suggestion made by the hon. Member for Dumbartonshire, East (Mrs. Bain) last week that the Labour Party wish to keep poverty and deprivation in West-Central Scotland? Will he say what response the Government intend to make to requests by local authorities in West-Central Scotland for help to be given in those deprived areas?

I am disappointed that the hon. Gentleman should repeat the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Dumbartonshire, East. It is not worth repeating.

In regard to special measures, we are in the process of allocating financial resources to areas of greatest need. This means that some areas will not be able to expand as fast as they would have liked to expand in order to ensure that areas which are experiencing difficulties will obtain the means to carry out a determined attack on educational deprivation.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions he has had with representatives of the Scottish fishing industry.

I have nothing to add to my right hon. Friend's reply on 11th June, and mine on 18th June to the hon. Member.—[Vol. 893, c. 187–8 Vol. 893, c. 442.]

Although the fishing industry is grateful for the attitude shown by the Minister, may I ask whether he is aware that the situation in the industry is becoming desperate? Does he appreciate that the average prices were down by 10 per cent. on last year, that costs are still rising and that 25 per cent. of the STF is now tied up or has been switched to oil activities? Will he say something about the extension of the subsidy? Will he persuade the Department to pay out as soon as possible the subsidy to smaller owners, who are experiencing severe cash flow problems?

I assure the hon. Member that there will be no delay in the actual payment. Obviously we shall have to wait until the end of July before the claims can be paid. Against the background of the general state of the industry and the economic situation, we are urgently studying applications from the industry. As my hon. Friend said on 30th June, we hope to make an announcement about this as soon as possible. We also look with some degree of, perhaps, hope to the recent decision on producers' associations. That may make some marginal but perhaps helpful contribution to the prices that might be expected in the various fish markets.

In the overall context of the fishing industry, is my hon. Friend still receiving complaints about illegal trawling in the waters of the Clyde and off the West Coast of Scotland? Is he satisfied that the transfer of the fishery protection vessel "Jura" to oil-protection duties in the North Sea will not cause a further deterioration in the situation off the West Coast of Scotland?

I have not received any recent representations about the Clyde. However, I point out that the fishery protection vessel, which will be performing other duties, was never intended for use in the Clyde. Therefore, there is no change in or limitation upon the existing facilities in the Fishery Protection Service.

Has the Minister given further thought to the introduction of a scrapping subsidy, which would enable the sections of the fishing industry which want to get out to do so without too much loss of income?

Strange as it may seem, I am always willing to give further thought to anything that the hon. Member for Banff (Mr. Watt) says. [Interruption.] That is possibly because he does not come up with many good ideas. However, it is far too soon to talk about a scrapping subsidy when there is a long-term future for the industry. I do not think that the use of such exaggerated phrases is helpful when we must sit down and look at the possibilities for the future of the industry.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the effect of regionalisation on the domestic rates in rural areas in Scotland.

The effect of regionalisation generally is to reduce disparities in rate poundages between one area and another.

Does the Minister appreciate that in many towns and villages in rural Scotland, such as Cried in my constituency, the increase in the rates after regionalisation was between 75 per cent. and 100 per cent.? Is he aware that these are areas which have practically no public services? Does he appreciate that the Socialist concept that we should, in his own words, even everything out merely punishes those who have the smallest income and the fewest services and distributes an equal share of the misery?

This position arose from the Conservative Government's Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973. I am not sure whether that was a Socialist concept. Last year Crieff had a rate as low as 59p in the pound and Kinross County had a rate of only 38p in the pound. Naturally, with regionalisation some of these areas are bearing disproportionate increases. All of this was anticipated and, indeed, inevitable in local government reorganisation. It was the Government of the hon. and learned Gentlemen's party who introduced this.

Will my right hon. Friend at least show some sympathy to the hon. and learned Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Mr. Fairbairn) and do something to alleviate the level of rates for those living in castles?

I should think that they are probably already derated.

Does the Minister agree that when a similar emergency arose last year in England and Wales at the time of local government reorganisation, the Government introduced a special scheme to help ratepayers suffering increases of over 20 per cent.? Because it was an English emergency, only a small part of the cash came to Scotland. Why has the Minister failed the ratepayers in Dumfries and elsewhere who are facing savage rises? Why will he not fight and obtain a similar scheme for them this year?

I have already explained this in the Scottish Grand Committee last week. Even after the introduction of the scheme, which applied to Scotland as well as England, the increase in rates for the domestic ratepayer in England was 17 per cent. compared with 14·9 per cent. in Scotland. The rate support grant settlement this year in Scotland, which was unprecedentedly high—the gap between Scotland and England has again been widened to 8½ per cent.—was meant to produce for Scotland the same overall rate increase as in England, namely 25 per cent. In those circumstances I have made it clear that it is not the Government's intention to introduce any further relief. I have said this to the local authorities and they have accepted it.

Does the Minister appreciate the incredible hypocrisy of the Conservative Party in raising this question when they were guilty of the heinous shameful crime of overturning the Wheatley Report and placing Argyll in the Strathclyde Region?

The hypocrisy of the Conservative Party never astonishes or surprises me.

is not the Minister's reply a typical example of double talk? Does it not mean that the rates have gone up? Can he tell us whether the reorganisation of local government—producing, as it has done, increased rates—means that when the government of the country is reorganised and an assembly is set up the taxpayer will find that he has to pay additional taxes?

Of course rates have gone up. If the hon. Gentleman had attended the Scottish Grand Committee last week, he would have heard the matter debated at great length. I see that he is indicating that he did attend. He was unnaturally quiet if he did so.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is now able to announce his decision on the representations made to him on the question of allowing pupils to leave school on their sixteenth birthday in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

The review of school leaving date arrangements which my right hon. Friend announced on 14th January is not confined to the question of allowing pupils to leave school on their sixteenth birthday. The implications of different courses of action suggested to me are at present under consideration.

Is my hon. Friend aware that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education stated on 24th June and confirmed yesterday that it is the Government's intention to introduce a mini-Education Bill in the autumn which will include a clause to allow pupils to leave school on their sixteenth birthday? Will my hon. Friend confirm that this policy will apply to Scotland?

I am aware of my right hon. Friend's decision about a mini Education Bill. I understand that the summer leaving date will be brought forward to Easter. This does not affect the question of allowing children to leave school on their sixteenth birthday. The policy of bringing forward the summer leaving date does not apply to Scotland because we are having a much more fundamental review. A number of different options have been canvassed. We shall study those options and come to a conclusion as soon as possible.

Is the Minister aware that there is great disappointment that consideration of allowing pupils to leave school on their sixteenth birthday was not completed in time for the summer holidays, when a large number of pupils will be affected? Is he aware that parents in my constituency have pointed out to me that if they register their sons and daughters with relatives on the other side of the border for a week in June, some of these children can leave school because of the discrepancy over the autumn starting date between the two areas? Is it not time this nonsense was ended?

It does not only apply if people register their children on the other side of the border. If children are registered in schools in different education authorities, there are different dates. The position in Scotland is different from that in England. At present the local authorities also set the leaving date. There is a lot of controversy about whether children should be allowed to leave at 16. When I say 16 I mean their sixteenth birthday. Among the things that have been suggested is that there should be more than two leaving dates to spread the anomalies. I am sure the hon. Gentleman understands that the anomalies existed when the school leaving age was 15. The fact that it is 16 has made it no worse, except, of course, that some children want to leave early because it is the school leaving age.

Is the Minister aware that an anomaly arose in my constituency last year? A constituent of mine informed me that his son's birthday fell the day after the school recommenced. The boy had a job but could not take it because his birthday was one day late. Why should people have to wait? Why cannot we say that when someone is 16 years of age and if he has a job he can go ahead and take it?

Because we believe that there is educational advantage in rounding off children's education. There will always be anomalies with a fixed leaving age whether it is 15 years of age or 16. There is a tendency to get this matter out of perspective. It leads to the suggestion that the school leaving age should be lowered to 15, because children can get a job at 15. If we reduce it to 15 we shall have the same anomalies and people will ask "Why bother with the school leaving age at all?" There are very great educational advantages in children staying at school. To solve the problem by saying "Let them leave whenever they can" would simply not be facing up to the realities of the situation.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the waiting time for admission to senior, intermediate and junior List D schools; how many pupils are on the waiting lists for each category; and what are his plans for extending the service.

The period is usually between two and five months for senior and intermediate schools and from one to three months for junior schools. On the waiting lists at 22nd June were 207 children for senior schools, 156 for intermediate schools and 93 for junior schools. Extension schemes due to be completed this autumn at existing schools will provide 69 additional places.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I am grateful for that reply, which gives some indication of the seriousness of the problem? Will he seek to introduce into the service a system of flexible intermediate treatment centres to receive youngsters whose sole crime is playing truant? Is he aware that social work panels send these children to approved schools, which cannot always take them because others are committed there for more serious misdemeanours? Is he further aware that these children continue to play truant and eventually qualify for these approved schools by committing a misdemeanour? Is it not possible to set up these centres quickly?

I am glad that my hon. Friend has drawn attention to the desirability of intermediate treatment centres. I have had discussions with a number of local authorities, managers of List D schools and directors of social work about this. I believe that there is now a much greater awareness of the desirability of operating these centres. As my hon. Friend will know, Springboig St. John is at present making an application to the Department in this connection. I commend those who have brought forward this imaginative proposal.

Does the Under-Secretary agree that the figures he has given underestimate the problem because there are many cases when social work panels have not referred children to these schools because they know that they are full and that there is a waiting list? Would he not agree that the work of the social work panels is being substantially undermined in view of the acute shortage of places in List D schools?

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman can state with such certainty that panels are refusing to put people on the waiting list for List D schools because of the difficulty in getting a place. What we have done is to make a thorough review of the waiting list situation. The present list of 456 has been reduced to that figure from the figure of 726 at which it stood in March. It was discovered that a number of applications had been left on the list when other measures had been taken. We now have a true list. There is, of course, pressure on the List D school system, but I do not accept that we are anywhere near breakdown point or that the situation is anything like as serious as the hon. Gentleman suggests.

Does the Minister admit that, despite the improvement in the figures, the severe shortage of accommodation must be undermining the whole system of the juvenile panels and that the system is coming under attack from members of the public, whereas the real problem is the shortage of facilities available to the panels to which the children can be sent when circumstances so demand?

It is a question of where the circumstances so demand. It is quite wrong to assume that the only treatment desirable or needed for a youngster in trouble is placement in a List D school. If we take a youngster for a limited period out of the community in which he lives and then send him back into that environment, he has to face the difficulties of readjustment. If we can deal with youngsters in trouble by giving intermediate treatment, which means trying to find a solution within the environment and the community from which they come, that is a far better solution. I accept, however, that there are children for whom a List D school place is the only answer. We are increasing the number of places, but I do not think we can say that List D school places are the only answer to the problems of juvenile delinquency.

asked the Lord Advocate if he will draw up a comprehensive programme for law reform for presentation to the Scottish Assembly.

There would seem little point in drawing up a detailed programme of work until the precise extent of the Scottish Assembly's responsibility is determined and its constitution agreed. The Government, however, remain alert to any opportunity that offers for the introduction of law reform measures, whether by this or any other means.

Does the Lord Advocate accept that there will be some disappointment over that answer because there has been a clamant need for parlia- mentary time to debate Scots law reform over the past few years? Is he aware that there is a good deal of discontent in the country and in the legal profession because of these delays? Will he further accept that failure to find time has resulted in an inability to get the Divorce Law Reform (Scotland) Bill through the House? Does he agree that a Scottish Assembly will provide the opportunity to deal with law reform in a more general way and also give us time to deal with the much-needed reform of the registration of title system?

There can be little doubt that a reasonable devolution arrangement should give greater time for Scottish law reform. This would be generally welcomed in Scotland. I would have thought that the people of Scotland understand very well that if we are to have a proper and workable system of devolution which will be stable and lasting and of benefit to them, we do not want to go chasing after detailed programmes in advance, seeking to do for the Assembly what it ought to do for itself.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that any suggestion for reforming Scots law coming from the Scottish National Party is a gross impertinence since it was the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Stewart) who first prevented the Divorce Law Reform (Scotland) Bill from making progress in this House? Will the Lord Advocate facilitate the passage of a similar Bill which is likely to arrive in this House from another place this week?

My hon. Friend is right to say that obstruction by individual Members has prevented further progress in this area.

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm the principle that law reform will become a matter for the Scottish Asesmbly?

I cannot confirm any such principle at the moment. Obviously, at present all aspects of future legislation with which the Scottish Assembly may deal are under consideration. The Government hope to publish a White Paper in the autumn setting out their proposals. The hon. Member can take it that this matter has been of concern to me and other members of the Government and that its importance will not be overlooked. There is a certain sense in which it is obvious that the setting up of a Scottish Assembly will give greater time for Scottish law reform proceedings.

asked the Lord Advocate if he is satisfied with the law of rape in Scotland and the penalties applicable to those convicted of rape.

Yes. My deputes who have prosecuted such cases recently do not report any problems.

The maximum penalty for rape is life imprisonment. No such penalty has been imposed this year. The penalties imposed range from four years' imprisonment to 10 years' imprisonment. One accused was committed to the State Hospital in terms of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1960 and in another case the accused was sentenced to two years' probation. Clearly the judges discriminate according to the circumstances of each particular case.

In view of the appalling difficulties which the English appear to have in dealing with this comparatively simple crime and the great ease with which, as the Minister has told us, we in Scotland deal with it, may I ask whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman could fit into his busy portfolio a word with the Attorney-General to advise the English how to administer justice with regard to rape without these difficulties, so that the people of Scotland can be spared having to pay their taxes to meet the cost of absurd inquiries before Mrs. Justice Heilbron or whoever is to conduct such an inquiry?

The hon. and learned Member's observation will no doubt be read by the Attorney-General. If it is necessary to make any further representations to him, I shall be happy to do so. I certainly agree that in this area the law of Scotland appears to have a point of view which is understood by the people and is of a commonsense nature. I believe that this area of the law, among others, is not assisted by artificiality and over-elaboration.

When will the right hon. and learned Gentleman tighten up the law of rape, particularly as it affects the rape of Scotland's oil? Does he not agree—

Order. I do not think that that point arises out of this Question.

Does the Lord Advocate agree that the independence of our judiciary has to be maintained at all costs? Can he gives the House an assurance that if any controversy arises in Scotland similar to that which arose south of the border with regard to sentencing for rape or any other crime, he will strongly resist any suggestion to interfere with the security of tenure of members of the judiciary which may come from Members of Parliament or other individuals who happen to disagree with the sentence imposed?

I agree that the independence of the judiciary is a basic constitutional principle of the greatest importance which must be upheld if we are to continue to be a constitutional democracy. On the other hand, it is also a facet of constitutional democracy that just criticism should be made by the public when they are outraged.

asked the Lord Advocate if he is satisfied with the Scottish system of pre-trial investigation of the cause of violent death.

Yes, Sir.

May I congratulate the right hon. and learned Gentleman on his first satisfactory answer today? May I also suggest that he should have a meeting with the Lord Chancellor and impress upon him the fact that we have a satisfactory system in Scotland which does not involve the public allocation of blame upon persons yet to be charged with an offience?

I think that I can again answer "Yes" to that question.