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Trade Union And Labour Relations (Amendment) Bill

Volume 904: debated on Tuesday 27 January 1976

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Order for Third Reading read.

10.11 p.m.

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I hope that in moving the Third Reading I shall be brief. I am sure that everyone will wish that to be the course to be pursued. I hope all hon. Members will agree that, despite suggestions some weeks ago that this procedure would curtail proper discussion, we have provided sufficient time for reconsideration of the Bill. I think that the only hon. Member who has suffered under our procedure—and I apologise to him at once—is the hon. Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Bottomley), whose amendments were not able to be called under the procedure we have followed.

I do not wish to go back to the occasion when some of us predicted that this would happen, especially as I was not in the House for the previous rounds. However, I ask the right hon. Gentleman to indicate whether my amendments would have been acceptable. I know that there is not time to go into the reasons for or against them.

I was about to say that, persuasive as I am sure the hon. Gentleman's speeches would have been, we would not have been able to accept his amendments. His first amendment concerned the political levy. If he looks at the existing rules of trade unions, he will see that most of the difficulties that he might think might arise are already covered. The other matters that he raised are already covered, we believe, by the provisions that enable agreements to be made between employers and unions. We think that that is the best way of dealing with the problems that the hon. Member had in mind. I cannot give him any further satisfaction than that. We hoped that he would be able to move his amendments in the proper way. There was no desire by the Government to seek to exclude him from doing so.

I think most hon. Members will agree that, contrary to the suggestions that the Government were being miserly or trying to curtail the time that the House would have to discuss these matters, we have had very full time for reconsideration of the Bill. I had in mind to state very briefly the sort of procedure that might occur, following Third Reading, in another place, but even those remarks I shall abbreviate very much further than I had previously thought.

The Bill will now go to another place once we give it a Third Reading. I trust that it will be given a Third Reading with a substantial majority such as we have been enjoying throughout the day.

When the Bill goes to another place, I hope that those concerned will recognise the view which has been expressed in such overwhelming terms by this House. I hope they will take that into account and allow the Bill to go on to the statute book speedily and without the Parliament Act needing to be invoked. That would be the simplest and most sensible course. Arrangements could be made whereby the main additional suggestion, as it is called under this procedure, which has been approved in these discussions could be added to the Bill as it was left on the previous occasion. The Press charter can be added to the propositions by the House of Lords, and it will be discussed by the methods which the Government will describe in the House of Lords.

I hope that the other place will take account of the fact that we have had substantial majorities on all the other matters that have come before us on this Bill but that this particular proposition passed this House without a dissenting voice. Since there have been these substantial majorities on a measure which is controversial, I trust that the other place will now recognise the will of the elected House of Commons and accept that fact.

I say in conclusion that many violent adjectives or nouns have been used in this debate. Indeed, I have been referred to as Dr. Faustus. It was remarked of Dr. Faustus,
"Let Faustus live in hell a thousand years".
I dare say that some people would choose that fate for me. But surely even Dr. Faustus would have been able to knock something off that thousand years if he had been able to plead that he had spent a thousand hours on the Trade Union and Labour Relations Bill. Therefore, I ask for a remission for all those who have endured the same fate.

We believe that this measure will contribute to industrial relations and we send the Bill to the other place in that spirit. We trust that the other place will never dare to send it back again.

10.18 p.m.

I wondered what the Secretary of State for Employment was reading so avidly during the debate. I thought that he was bored with the proceedings. I now recognise that he must have been wading through "Dr. Faustus" to find the quotation he gave.

We have regarded this Bill and its predecessor which was thrown out by the House of Lords as being particularly bad. It is a little disingenuous of the Secretary of State to say that the Press charter passed without dissent in this House. The truth is that we had long debates on the matter and went deeply into the subject of the charter. We were unsuccessful, and I suppose that the charter can be regarded as at least a step in the right direction. We believe that it will have to be greatly strengthened in a year or two and we hope that we shall then have the support of Labour Members.

The Bill has been concerned the whole way through with the issue of the freedom of the individual. Its provisions involve the exclusion or expulsion of an individual from a trade union without a properly constituted tribunal or court before which a case can be put. It also touches conscience grounds in respect of unfair dismissal when a man does not wish to belong to a trade union. We were unable even to write in the words

Division No. 41.]

AYES

[10.22 p.m.

Allaun, FrankBean, R. E.Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)
Anderson, DonaldBenn, Rt Hon Anthony WedgwoodBrown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)
Archer, PeterBennett, Andrew (Stockport N)Buchan, Norman
Armstrong, ErnestBidwell, SydneyBuchanan, Richard
Ashley, JackBishop, E. S.Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)
Ashton, JoeBlenkinsop, ArthurCallaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE)
Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)Boardman, H.Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)
Atkinson, NormanBooth, AlbertCampbell, Ian
Bagier, Gordon A. T.Bottomley, Rt Hon ArthurCanavan, Dennis
Bain, Mrs MargaretBoyden, James (Bish Auck)Cant, R. B.
Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)Bradley, TomCarmichael, Neil
Bates, AlfBray, Dr JeremyCarter-Jones, Lewis

"deeply-held conviction." Such words have been barred from the Bill.

I see no members of the Scottish National Party present, and on no single occasion have they supported us during the passage of the Bill. So much for their ideas of freedom north of the border.

The Bill has received larger majorities than it deserved. That is certainly true when judged against the attendance during our debates of Labour Members, who have been conspicuous by their absence.

We are grateful to the Government for having given the House two days' discussion of the measure. We think that the procedure has worked reasonably well. Of course, it may have to work again on subsequent occasions. If the Government go on producing legislation like this, I would not be at all surprised if we have more of this procedure.

We believe that a sensible middle course could have been adopted between our amendments and the Government's desire to have no proper guarantees in the Bill for the rights of the individual. If we had reached an agreed solution, it would have done more to help industrial relations than any other single thing we shall do in the lifetime of this Parliament. A great opportunity has been missed.

We shall consult the TUC and seek to reach agreement—and I believe that we can—on many of the aspects concerned with the rights of the individual which the TUC leaders and their members understand, even if the Government do not. It is in that spirit that we shall approach future industrial relations. For the moment, we shall leave their Lordships to do what they like with the Bill.

Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:—

The House divided: Ayes, 285, Noes 249.

Cartwright, JohnHuckfield, LesPark, George
Castle, Rt Hon BarbaraHughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)Parker, John
Clemitson, IvorHughes, Mark (Durham)Parry, Robert
Cocks, Michael (Bristol S)Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)Pavitt, Laurie
Coleman, DonaldHughes, Roy (Newport)Perry, Ernest
Colquhoun, Mrs MaureenHunter, AdamPrescott, John
Concannon, J. D.Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill)Price, C. (Lewisham W)
Conlan, BernardIrving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)Price, William (Rugby)
Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)Jackson, Colin (Brighouse)Radice, Giles
Corbett, RobinJackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Cox, Thomas (Tooting)Janner, GrevilleRoberts, Gwilym (Cannock)
Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill)Jeger, Mrs LenaRobertson, John (Paisley)
Crawford, DouglasJenkins, Hugh (Putney)Roderick, Caerwyn
Cronin, JohnJohn, BrynmorRodgers, George (Chorley)
Crosland, Rt Hon AnthonyJohnson, James (Hull West)Rodgers, William (Stockton)
Cryer, BobJohnson, Walter (Derby S)Rooker, J. W.
Cunningham, G. (Islington S)Jones, Alec (Rhondda)Rose, Paul B.
Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiten)Jones, Barry (East Flint)Rowlands, Ted
Dalyell, TamJones, Dan (Burnley)Sandelson, Neville
Davidson, ArthurJudd, FrankSedgemore, Brian
Davies, Bryan (Enfield N)Kaufman, GeraldSelby, Harry
Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)Kelley, RichardShaw, Arnold (Ilford South)
Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)Kerr, RussellSheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne)
Deakins, EricKilroy-Silk, RobertShore, Rt Hon Peter
Dean Joseph (Leeds West)Kinnock, NeilShort, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C)
Delargy, HughLambie, DavidShort, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE)
Dell, Rt Hon EdmundLamborn, HarrySilkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)
Dempsey, JamesLamond, JamesSillars, James
Doig, PeterLatham, Arthur (Paddington)Silverman, Julius
Dormand, J. D.Leadbitter, TedSkinner, Dennis
Douglas-Mann, BruceLee, JohnSmall, William
Duffy, A. E. P.Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)
Dunn, James A.Lever, Rt Hon HaroldSnape, Peter
Dunnett, JackLewis, Ron (Carlisle)Spearing, Nigel
Dunwoody, Mrs GwynethLitterick, TomSpriggs, Leslie
Eadie, AlexLoyden, EddieStallard, A. W.
Edge, GeoffLuard, EvanStewart, Donald (Western Isles)
Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE)Lyon, Alexander (York)Stott, Roger
Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)Strang, Gavin
Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)McCartney, HughStrauss, Rt Hon G. R.
English, MichaelMacCormick, IainSummerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
Ennals, DavidMcElhone, FrankSwain, Thomas
Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)MacFarquhar, RoderickTaylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)
Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)McGuire, Michael (Ince)Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)Mackenzie, GregorThomas, Mike (Newcastle E)
Ewing, Harry (Stirling)Mackintosh, John P.Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)
Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray)Maclennan, RobertThompson, George
Fernyhough, Rt Hn E.McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)Thorne, Stan (Preston South)
Fitch, Alan (Wigan)McNamara, KevinTierney, Sydney
Flannery, MartinMadden, MaxTinn, James
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)Magee, BryanTomlinson, John
Foot, Rt Hon MichaelMahon, SimonTomney, Frank
Ford, BenMallalieu, J. P. W.Torney, Tom
Forrester, JohnMarks, KennethTuck, Raphael
Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)Marquand, DavidVarley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd)Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)
Freeson, ReginaldMarshall, Jim (Leicester S)Walden, Brian (B'ham, L'dyw'd)
Garrett, John (Norwich S)Mason, Rt Hon RoyWalker, Harold (Doncaster)
Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)Meacher, MichaelWard, Michael
George, BruceMellish, Rt Hon RobertWatkins, David
Gilbert, Dr JohnMikardo, IanWatt, Hamish
Ginsburg, DavidMillan, BruceWeetch, Ken
Golding, JohnMiller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)Wellbeloved, James
Gould, BryanMiller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N)Welsh, Andrew
Gourlay, HarryMitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen)White, Frank R. (Bury)
Graham, TedMolloy, WilliamWhite, James (Pollok)
Grant, George (Morpeth)Moonman, EricWhitlock, William
Grant, John (Islington C)Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Grocott, BruceMorris, Charles R. (Openshaw)Williams, Alan (Swansea W)
Hamilton, James (Bothwell)Moyle, RolandWilliams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)
Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)Mulley, Rt Hon FrederickWilliams, W. T. (Warrington)
Harper, JosephMurray, Rt Hon Ronald KingWilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)Newens, StanleyWilson, Gordon (Dundee E)
Hart, Rt Hon JudithNoble, MikeWilson, Rt Hon H. (Huyton)
Hattersley, Rt Hon RoyOakes, GordonWilson, William (Coventry SE)
Hatton, FrankOgden, EricWise, Mrs Audrey
Hayman, Mrs HeleneO'Halloran, MichaelWoodall, Alec
Healey, Rt Hon DenisO'Malley, Rt Hon BrianWoof, Robert
Henderson, DouglasOrbach, MauriceWrigglesworth, Ian
Heffer, Eric S.Orme, Rt Hon StanleyYoung, David (Bolton E)
Hooley, FrankOvenden, John
Horam, JohnOwen, Dr DavidTELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Howell, Denis (B'ham, Sm H)Padley, WalterMr. Tom Pendry and
Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)Palmer, ArthurMr. David Stoddart.

NOES

Adley, RobertGower, Sir Raymond (Barry)More, Jasper (Ludlow)
Aitken, JonathanGrant, Anthony (Harrow C)Morgan, Geraint
Alison, MichaelGray, HamishMorris, Michael (Northampton S)
Amery, Rt Hon JulianGriffiths, EldonMorrison, Charles (Devizes)
Arnold, TomGrist, IanMorrison, Hon Peter (Chester)
Atkins, Rt Hon H, (Spelthorne)Grylls, MichaelMudd, David
Awdry, DanielHall, Sir JohnNeave, Airey
Baker, KennethHall-Davis, A. G. F.Nelson, Anthony
Banks, RobertHamilton, Michael (Salisbury)Neubert, Michael
Beith, A. J.Hampson, Dr KeithNewton, Tony
Bell, RonaldHannam, JohnNormanton, Tom
Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham)Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon MissNott, John
Benyon, W.Hastings, StephenOnslow, Cranley
Berry, Hon AnthonyHavers, Sir MichaelOppenheim, Mrs Sally
Biffen, JohnHawkins, PaulOsborn, John
Biggs-Davison, JohnHayhoe, BarneyPage, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)
Blaker, PeterHicks, RobertPaisley, Rev Ian
Body, RichardHiggins, Terence L.Parkinson, Cecil
Boscawen, Hon RobertHolland, PhilipPattie, Geoffrey
Bottomley, PeterHooson, EmlynPenhaligon, David
Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)Hordern, PeterPercival, Ian
Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent)Howell, David (Guildford)Peyton, Rt Hon John
Braine, Sir BernardHowell, Ralph (North Norfolk)Pink, R. Bonner
Brittan, LeonHurd, DouglasPowell, Rt Hon J. Enoch
Brocklebank-Fowler, C.Hutchison, Michael ClarkPrice, David (Eastleigh)
Brotherton, MichaelIrvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)Prior, Rt Hon James
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)Pym, Rt Hon Francis
Bryan, Sir PaulJames, DavidRathbone, Tim
Buchanan-Smith, AlickJenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd)Rawlinson, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Budgen, NickJohnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)
Bulmer, EsmondJohnston, Russell (Inverness)Rees-Davies, W. R.
Burden, F. A.Jones, Arthur (Daventry)Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)
Butler, Adam (Bosworth)Jopling, MichaelRenton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)
Carlisle, MarkJoseph, Rt Hon Sir KeithRidley, Hon Nicholas
Chalker, Mrs LyndaKaberry, Sir DonaldRidsdale, Julian
Churchill, W. S.Kellett-Bowman, Mrs ElaineRifkind, Malcolm
Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)Kershaw, AnthonyRoberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)
Clark, William (Croydon S)Kilfedder, JamesRoberts, Wyn (Conway)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)Kimball, MarcusRoss, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Clegg, WalterKing, Evelyn (South Dorset)Ross, William (Londonderry)
Cooke, Robert (Bristol W)King, Tom (Bridgwater)Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Cope, JohnKitson, Sir TimothyRost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)
Cormack, PatrickKnight, Mrs JillRoyle, Sir Anthony
Corrie, JohnKnox, DavidSainsbury, Tim
Costain, A. P.Lament, NormanShaw, Giles (Pudsey)
Crouch, DavidLane, DavidShelton, William (Streatham)
Crowder. F. P.Langford-Holt, Sir JohnShepherd, Colin
Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford)Latham, Michael (Melton)Shersby, Michael
Dodsworth, GeoffreyLawrence, IvanSims, Roger
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord JamesLawson, NigelSinclair, Sir George
Drayson, BurnabyLe Marchant, SpencerSkeet, T. H. H.
du Cann, Rt Hon EdwardLester, Jim (Beeston)Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)
Dunlop, JohnLewis, Kenneth (Rutland)Smith, Dudley (Warwick)
Durant, TonyLloyd, IanSpeed, Keith
Eden, Rt Hon Sir JohnLoveridge, JohnSpence, John
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)Luce, RichardSpicer, Michael (S Worcester)
Elliott, Sir WilliamMcAdden, Sir StephenSproat, Iain
Emery, PeterMcCrindle, RobertStainton, Keith
Eyre, ReginaldMcCusker, H.Stanbrook, Ivor
Fairbairn, NicholasMacfarlane, NeilStanley, John
Fairgrieve, RussellMacGregor, JohnSteal, David (Roxburgh)
Fell, AnthonyMacmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham)Stokes, John
Finsberg, GeoffreyMcNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury)Stradling Thomas, J.
Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N)McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)
Fletcher-Cooke, CharlesMadel, DavidTebbit, Norman
Fookes, Miss JanetMarshall, Michael (Arundel)Temple-Morris, Peter
Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd)Marten, NeilThatcher, Rt Hon Margaret
Fox, MarcusMaude, AngusThomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S)
Freud, ClementMaudling, Rt Hon ReginaldThorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)
Fry, PeterMawby, RayTownsend, Cyril D.
Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.Maxwell-Hyslop, RobinTrotter Neville
Gardiner, George (Reigate)Mayhew, PatrickTugendhat, Christopher
Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)Meyer, Sir Anthonyvan Straubenzee, W. R.
Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)Mills, PeterVaughan, Dr Gerard
Glyn, Dr AlanMiscampbell, NormanViggers, Peter
Godber, Rt Hon JosephMitchell, David (Basingstoke)Wakeham, John
Goodhart, PhilipMoate, RogerWalder, David (Clitheroe)
Goodhew, VictorMolyneaux, JamesWalker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)
Goodlad, AlastairMonro, HectorWalker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek
Gorst, JohnMontgomery, FergusWall, Patrick
Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)Moore, John (Croydon C)Weatherill, Bernard

Whitelaw, Rt Hon WilliamWood, Rt Hon RichardTELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Wiggin, JerryYoung, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)Mr. Carol Mather and
Winterton, NicholasYounger, Hon GeorgeMr. Fred Silvester.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Bill read the Third time and passed.

Ordered,

That the amendments suggested by this House to the Bill be communicated to the Lords.
CONSIDERATION ON REPORT OF CERTAIN BILLS BY A STANDING COMMITTEE

Ordered,

That Standing Order No. 73 (Consideration on report of certain Bills by a Standing Committee) be amended, as follows:—
Line 24, leave out 'and Monmouthshire'.
Line 27, leave out 'and Monmouthshire'.— [Mr. Coleman.]