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Education Money

Volume 904: debated on Wednesday 4 February 1976

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Queen's Recommendation having been signified—

Motion made and Question proposed,

That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the law relating to education, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—
  • (a) any increase in the sums so payable in respect of—
  • (i) grants under section 102 or loans under section 105 of the Education Act 1944, or
  • (ii) rate support grant under the Local Government Act 1974,
  • which is attributable to any provision of the said Act of the present Session relating to proposals for any such action as is mentioned in section 13 (1) or (2) of the Education Act 1944;
  • (b) any increase in the sums so payable in respect of grants under section 8(2) of the Local Government Act 1974 which is attributable to any provision of the said Act of the present Session applying section 1 of the Education Act 1962 to courses for the higher diploma of the Technician Education Council or the Business Education Council;
  • (c) any increase in the sums so payable in respect of rate support grant under the Local Government Act 1974 which is attributable to any provision of the said Act of the present Session relating to the provision of milk by local education authorities.—[Mr. Gerry Fowler.]
  • 10.16 p.m.

    I shall not detain the House long. I wish to draw its attention to the form of the Money Resolution and to ask a number of questions about it. This is a curious Money Resolution and perhaps my experience in the House makes me unable to understand its total cost and content.

    It says
    "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the law relating to education, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of"
    and then lists in paragraphs(a), (b) and (c) certain definitions. However, at no stage does it indicate any sum of money.

    By coincidence, I deduce that paragraph (a) refers to Clause 3 of the Education Bill which has just had its Second Reading. Why do we have to authorise an item of expenditure without any limit or ceiling to it in connection with a Bill which has just received its Second Reading? If we relate the paragraphs to the clauses, we discover that Clause 3 refers to the approval and implementation of the proposals. What is the cost of the implementation of the proposals likely to be? I do not want an answer which relates only to the cash cost today.

    In the unemployment debate which took place a short time ago—

    On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am prepared to accept that your hearing, Mr. Speaker, may be substantially better than mine, but I am finding it extremely difficult to hear my hon. Friend's important remarks.

    I am obliged to you, Mr. Speaker, and to my hon. Friend.

    I should like to point out that 172 grammar schools are likely to be affected by the proposals contained in the Resolution. There must be a cost analysis. In the unemployment debate there was a continual call for the cost benefit analysis on a total basis. When we discussed unemployment we wanted to know about redundancy, social security and loss of production. When we discuss education we want to know not only the Government's expenditure but the local authority expenditure. This is a reasonable question to ask at a time when we are being asked to pass a Money Resolution.

    Paragraph (b) refers to Clause 7. Paragraph (c) refers to Clause 8 which deals with milk. In the Explanatory Note on the
    "Financial effects of the Bili"
    it states that it will cost £6 million to £9 million. Those figures are not contained in the motion which we are being asked to approve.

    This is a curious procedure whereby we are asked to approve expenditure in respect of legislation which has not yet been approved and for which the amount involved is uncertain. The only matter which is certain is that in 1976–77 £25 million is to be spent on the reorganisation of schools for comprehensive purposes.

    What provisions are there in the Government's capital expenditure estimates to provide for this type of cost? Have the sums been done? Have the calculations been made? Our experience is that the Government machine succeeds in bungling the figures time after time. We have the Treasury's book-keeping record. The Home Office is unable to get the immigration figures right. I want to be sure that the Minister of State, Department of Education and Science has got his sums right. We want to know the cost. That is the purpose of the Resolution.

    10.19 p.m.

    I should like, Mr. Speaker, to add my congratulations to those of other hon. Members on your election to the Chair.

    Division No. 52.]

    AYES

    10.21 p.m.

    Abse, LeoColeman, DonaldFletcher, Ted (Darlington)
    Allaun, FrankColquhoun, Mrs MaureenFoot, Rt Hon Michael
    Anderson, DonaldConlan, BernardFord, Ben
    Archer, PeterCook, Robin F. (Edin C)Forrester, John
    Armstrong, ErnestCorbett, RobinFowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)
    Ashley, JackCraigen, J. M. (Maryhill)Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd)
    Ashton, JoeCrawshaw, RichardFreeson, Reginald
    Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)Cronin, JohnFreud, Clement
    Atkinson, NormanCrosland, Rt Hon AnthonyGarrett, John (Norwich S)
    Bagier, Gordon A. T.Cryer, BobGarrett, W. E. (Walisend)
    Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)Cunningham, G. (Islington S)George, Bruce
    Bates, AlfCunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)Gilbert, Dr John
    Bean, R. E.Davidson, ArthurGinsburg, David
    Beith. A. J.Davies, Bryan (Enfield N)Golding, John
    Benn, Rt Hon Anthony WedgwoodDavies, Denzil (Llaneli)Gould, Bryan
    Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)Davis, Clinton (Hackev C)Gourlay, Harry
    Bidwell, SydneyDeakins, EricGraham, Ted
    Bishop, E. S.Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)Grant, George (Morpeth)
    Blenkinsop, ArthurDelargy, HughGrant, John (Islington C)
    Boardman, H.Dell, Rt Hon EdmundGrocott, Bruce
    Booth, AlbertDempsey, JamesHardy, Peter
    Bottomley, Rt Hon ArthurDoig, PeterHarper, Joseph
    Boyden, James (Bish Auck)Dormand, J. D.Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
    Bradley, TomDouglas-Mann, BruceHart, Rt Hon Judith
    Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)Duffy, A. E. P.Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
    Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)Dunn, James A.Hayman, Mrs Helene
    Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)Dunnett, JackHealey, Rt Hon Denis
    Buchan, NormanEadie, AlexHeffer, Eric S.
    Buchanan, RichardEdge, GeoffHooley, Frank
    Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE)Hooson, Emlyn
    Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE)Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)Horam, John
    Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)English, MichaelHowell, Denis (B'ham, Sm H)
    Campbell, IanEnnals, DavidHowells, Geraint (Cardigan)
    Canavan, DennisEvans, Fred (Caerphilly)Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)
    Cant, R. B.Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)Huckfield, Les
    Carmichael, NeilEvans, Ioan (Aberdare)Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)
    Carter, RayEwing, Harry (Stirling)Hughes, Roy (Newport)
    Carter-Jones, LewisFaulds, AndrewHunter, Adam
    Cartwright, JohnFerny hough, Rt Hn E.Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill)
    Castle, Rt Hon BarbaraFitch, Alan (Wigan)Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)
    Clemitson, IvorFlannery, MartinJackson, Colin (Brighouse)
    Cocks, Michael (Bristol S)Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

    The provisions in the Bill relating to comprehensive education will not give rise to additional public expenditure. My right hon. Friend explained that he intends to use his power to require proposals to be treated as Section 13 proposals only where in his view resources are already available or provision can be made from future building programmes. I cannot estimate the size of future building programmes.

    Regarding school milk, the Bill does no more than make possible the introduction, by regulations, of more flexible arrangements for the provision of milk by local education authorities. I am not yet in a position to say what form the new Regulations will take. My right hon. Friend, after consulting the local authority associations in due course, will doubtless report to the House. That is why there is a range of figures in the Financial Memorandum regarding what might be the additional cost.

    Question put:—

    The House divided: Ayes, 293, Noes 252.

    Janner, GrevilleMiller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)
    Jay, Rt Hon DouglasMiller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N)Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)
    Jeger, Mrs LenaMolloy, WilliamSnape, Peter
    Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)Moonman, EricSpearing, Nigel
    Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Stechford)Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)Spriggs, Leslie
    John, BrynmorMorris, Charles R. (Openshaw)Stallard, A. W.
    Johnson, James (Hull West)Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)Steel, David (Roxburgh)
    Johnson, Walter (Derby S)Mulley, Rt Hon FrederickStoddart, David
    Johnston, Russell (Inverness)Murray, Rt Hon Ronald KingStott, Roger
    Jones, Alec (Rhondda)Newens, StanleyStrang, Gavin
    Jones, Barry (East Flint)Noble, MikeStrauss, Rt Hon G. R.
    Jones, Dan (Burnley)Oakes, GordonSummerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
    Judd, FrankOgden, EricSwain, Thomas
    Kaufman, GeraldO'Halloran, MichaelTaylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)
    Kelley, RichardO'Malley, Rt Hon BrianThomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
    Kerr, RussellOrbach, MauriceThomas, Mike (Newcastle E)
    Kilroy-Silk, RobertOrme, Rt Hon StanleyThomas, Ron (Bristol NW)
    Kinnock, NeilOvenden, JohnThorne, Stan (Preston South)
    Lambie, DavidOwen, Dr DavidTierney, Sydney
    Lamborn, HarryPadley, WalterTinn, James
    Lamond, JamesPalmer, ArthurTomlinson, John
    Latham, Arthur (Paddington)Park, GeorgeTomney, Frank
    Leadbitter, TedParry, RobertTorney, Tom
    Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)Pavitt, LaurieTuck, Raphael
    Lever, Rt Hon HaroldPeart, Rt Hon FredUrwin, T. W.
    Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)Pendry, TomVarley, Rt Hon Eric G.
    Lipton, MarcusPerry, ErnestWainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)
    Litterick, TomPhipps, Dr ColinWalden, Brian (B'ham, L'dyw'd)
    Loyden, EddiePrentice, Rt Hon RegWalker, Harold (Doncaster)
    Luard, EvanPrice, William (Rugby)Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
    Lyon, Alexander (York)Radice, GilesWard, Michael
    Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)Watkins, David
    Mabon, Dr J. DicksonRichardson, Miss JoWatkinson, John
    McCartney, HughRoberts, Albert (Normanton)Weetch, Ken
    McElhone, FrankRoberts, Gwilym (Cannock)Wellbeloved, James
    MacFarquhar, RoderickRoderick, CaerwynWhite, Frank R. (Bury)
    McGuire, Michael (Ince)Rodgers, George (Chorley)White, James (Pollok)
    Mackenzie, GregorRodgers, William (Stockton)Whitehead, Phillip
    Mackintosh, John P.Rooker, J. W.Whitlock, William
    Maclennan, RobertRoper, JohnWigley, Dafydd
    McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)Rose, Paul B.Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
    McNamara, KevinRoss, Stephen (Isle of Wight)Williams, Alan (Swansea W)
    Madden, MaxRoss, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)
    Magee, BryanRowlands, TedWilliams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)
    Mahon, SimonSandelson, NevilleWilliams, W. T. (Warrington)
    Mallalieu, J. P. W.Sedgemore, BrianWilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
    Marks, KennethSelby, HarryWilson, Rt Hon H. (Huyton)
    Marquand, DavidShaw, Arnold (Ilford South)Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
    Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne)Wise, Mrs Audrey
    Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)Shore, Rt Hon PeterWoodall, Alec
    Mason, Rt Hon RoyShort, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C)Woof, Robert
    Maynard, Miss JoanShort, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE)Wrigglesworth, Ian
    Meacher, MichaelSilkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)Young, David (Bolton E)
    Mellish, Rt Hon RobertSilkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)
    Mendelson, JohnSilverman, JuliusTELLERS FOR THE AYES:
    Mikardo, IanSkinner, DennisMr. Thomas Cox and
    Millan, BruceSmall, WilliamMr. James Hamilton.

    NOES

    Adley, RobertBrocklebank-Fowler, C.Critchley, Julian
    Altken, JonathanBrotherton, MichaelCrouch, David
    Alison, MichaelBrown, Sir Edward (Bath)Crowder, F. P.
    Amery, Rt Hon JulianBryan, Sir PaulDavies, Rt hon J. (Knutsford)
    Arnold, TomBuchanan-Smith, AlickDean,Paul (N Somerset)
    Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)Budgen, NickDodsworth, Geoffrey
    Awdry, DanielBulmer, EsmondDouglas-Hamilton, Lord James
    Baker, KennethBurden, F. A.Drayson, Burnaby
    Banks, RobertButler, Adam (Bosworth)du Cann, Rt Hon Edward
    Bell, RonaldCarlisle, MarkDunlop, John
    Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay)Carson, JohnDurant, Tony
    Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham)Chalker, Mrs LyndaEden, Rt Hon Sir John
    Benyon, W.Channon, PaulEdwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
    Berry, Hon AnthonyClark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)Elliott, Sir William
    Biffen, JohnClark, William (Croydon S)Eyre, Reginald
    Biggs-Davison, JohnClarke, Kenneth (usncliffe)Fairbairn, Nicholas
    Blaker, PeterClegg, WalterFarr, John
    Body, RichardCockcroft, JohnFell, Anthony
    Boscawen, Hon RobertCooke, Robert (Bristol W)Finsberg, Geoffrey
    Bottomley, PeterCope, JohnFisher, Sir Nigel
    Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)Cordle, John H.Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
    Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent)Cormack, PatrickFookes, Miss Janet
    Braine, Sir BernardCorrie, JohnFowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd)
    Brittan, LeonCostain, A. P.Fox, Marcus

    Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)Loveridge, JohnRidsdale, Julian
    Fry, PeterLuce, RichardRifkind, Malcolm
    Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.McAdden, Sir StephenRippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey
    Gardiner, George (Reigate)McCrindle, RobertRoberts, Wyn (Conway)
    Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham)McCusker, H.Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
    Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)Macfarlane, NeilRoss, William (Londonderry)
    Glyn, Dr AlanMacGregor, JohnRossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
    Godber, Rt Hon JosephMacmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham)Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)
    Goodhart, PhilipMcNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury)Royle, Sir Anthony
    Goodhew, VictorMcNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)Sainsbury, Tim
    Goodlad, AlastairMadel, DavidSt. John-Stevas, Norman
    Gorst, JohnMarshall, Michael (Arundel)Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)
    Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)Marten, NeilShelton, William (Streatham)
    Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry)Mather, CarolShepherd, Colin
    Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)Maude, AngusShersby, Michael
    Gray, HamishMawby, RaySilvester, Fred
    Grieve, PercyMaxwell-Hyslop, RobinSims, Roger
    Griffiths, EldonMayhew, PatrickSinclair, Sir George
    Grist, IanMeyer, Sir AnthonySkeet, T. H. H.
    Grylls, MichaelMiller, Hal (Bromsgrove)Smith, Dudley (Warwick)
    Hall, Sir JohnMills, PeterSpeed, Keith
    Hall-Davis, A. G. F.Miscampbell, NormanSpence, John
    Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)
    Hampson, Dr KeithMoate, RogerSproat, Iain
    Hannam,JohnMolyneaux, JamesStainton, Keith
    Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon MissMonro, HectorStanbrook, Ivor
    Havers, Sir MichaelMontgomery, FergusStanley, John
    Hawkins, PaulMoore, John (Croydon C)Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)
    Hayhoe, BarneyMorgan, GeraintStewart, Ian (Hitchin)
    Heath, Rt Hon EdwardMorris, Michael (Northampton S)Stokes, John
    Hicks, RobertMorrison, Charles (Devizes)Stradling Thomas, J.
    Higgins, Terence L.Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester)Tapsell, Peter
    Holland, PhilipMudd, DavidTaylor, Teddy (Cathcart)
    Hordern, PeterNeave, AireyTebbit, Norman
    Howell, David (Guildford)Nelson, AnthonyTemple-Morris, Peter
    Hunt, JohnNeubert, MichaelThatcher, Rt Hon Margaret
    Hutchison, Michael ClarkNewton, TonyThomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S)
    Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)Nott, JohnTownsend, Cyril D.
    James, DavidOnslow, CranleyTrotter Neville
    Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd)Oppenhelm, Mrs SallyTugendhat, Christopher
    Jessel, TobyPage, John (Harrow West)van Straubenzee, W. R.
    Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)Vaughan, Dr Gerard
    Jones, Arthur (Daventry)Paisley, Rev IanViggers, Peter
    Jopling, MichaelParkinson, CecilWainwright, Richard (Colne V)
    Joseph, Rt Hon Sir KeithPattie, GeoffreyWakeham, John
    Kaberry, Sir DonaldPenhaligon, DavidWalder, David (Clitheroe)
    Kellett-Bowman, Mrs ElainePercival, IanWall, Patrick
    Kershaw, AnthonyPeyton, Rt Hon JohnWalters, Dennis
    Kimball, MarcusPink, R. BonnerWarren, Kenneth
    King, Evelyn (South Dorset)Powell, Rt Hon J. EnochWeatherill, Bernard
    King, Tom (Bridgwater)Price, David (Eastleigh)Wells, John
    Kitson, Sir TimothyPrior, Rt Hon JamesWhitelaw, Rt Hon William
    Knight, Mrs JillPym, Rt Hon FrancisWiggin, Jerry
    Knox, DavidRaison, TimothyWinterton, Nicholas
    Lamont, NormanRathbone, TimWood, Rt Hon Richard
    Lane, DavidRawlinson, Rt Hon Sir PeterYoung, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)
    Latham, Michael (Melton)Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)Younger, Hon George
    Lawrence, IvanRees-Davies, W. R.
    Lawson, NigelRenton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
    Le Merchant, SpencerRenton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)Mr. Jim Lester and
    Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)Ridley, Hon NicholasMr. Michael Roberts.
    Lloyd, Ian

    Question accordingly agreed to.