asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many letters he has received to date urging a referendum on the devolution issue; and what reply he has given.

I have received 80 letters calling for a referendum, out of a total of about 1,400 letters on the subject of devolution. I have made clear that the Government have no plans to hold one.

Irrespective of those figures—I must say that I am surprised by them—is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the demand for a referendum far exceeds the demand for devolution, which is now understood in Wales to be a method of deflecting criticism away from Westminster and Whitehall to Cardiff? Is the Secretary of State aware that the demand for a referendum is a polite Welsh way of saying "No" to the proposals?

I hope that Welsh hon. Members will set an example for the rest of the week by asking only one supplementary question.

I am aware that a number of voices have been raised in support of the idea of a referendum, but I am far from sure where the hon. Gentleman stands on that subject.

To give a quick and accurate resumé of those figures, is my right hon. and learned Friend not aware that in Wales there are about 29 district councils and five out of seven county councils which wish to have a referendum? Will the Secretary of State accept that it appears from research in my constituency that 13 constituency Labour Parties also want a referendum and that a large number have not yet committed themselves? Does he not agree that this augurs well for a devolution referendum?

I am aware of the voices that have been raised in support of that idea, but my hon. Friend would be the first to say that other voices have been raised against the idea, including that of the Welsh TUG. I am sure that the arguments will be fully discussed at the Welsh party conference, as they were last year, when the suggestion was rejected.

If there were a referendum, the line-up would be fascinating. Plaid Cymru welcomes the idea of a referendum, on condition that it would be fair and constructive, with all the options, including those offered by the unions, Plaid Cymru, the Liberal Party and the Republicans.

There are a whole variety of questions, such as separatism—which I am confident will be rejected in Wales—federalism, the Government's solution, the reform of local government, and which parts of Wales should remain within the devolved structure. Some hon. Members who are anxious that there should be no diminution in the powers of Members of Parliament will be conscious that hon. Members should take a decision supported by the manifesto which was adopted at the last General Election.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree mat it would be a good idea to cool the hysteria on the subject? The arguments advanced by the principal protagonists on the one side are nothing like as one-sided as is made out. On Friday night my constituency Labour Party decided, in my absence, to support the White Paper and oppose a referendum.

I am pleased to hear the news. I am sure that if my hon. Friend had been there, the decision would have been the same.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. When are we to emerge from this Celtic twilight?

I cannot help hon. Members until tomorrow, when special efforts will be made to deal with the lighting defects.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not appropriate for English Members to be called on this subject?

It is for Mr. Speaker to decide whom he calls on different Questions.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what repre- sentations he has received on devolution from the Welsh Council.

The Welsh Council is one of the bodies invited to submit comments to the Welsh Office on the White Paper, Cmnd. 6348. I understand the Council has been considering its response, and we await its comments with interest.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the Press report that the Welsh Council has reached a consensus in favour of the policy in the Government's White Paper? Does the fact that this rather conservative body has reached that conclusion not suggest that the White Paper does not go far enough and that the future Assembly should at least have control of the Welsh Development Agency?

I should not be prepared at this juncture to describe the Welsh Council as conservative, liberal, Labour or anything else and I am not prepared to respond to Press reports. If the Welsh Council is a responsible body, as I believe it to be, it is right and proper that the Government should react to its reasoned response after it has made that response known to the Government.

Has the hon. Gentleman received, in addition, representations from most of the local authorities in Wales and from bodies like the CBI and the Welsh TUC?

As the Secretary of State said, we have received a considerable number of responses from bodies. The Welsh TUC and the CBI have responded. The Welsh Council was one of the 55 bodies which were specifically asked for their comments on this document, but that does not debar any individual from making comments and suggestions to my right hon. and learned Friend.

Does the Minister agree that it is far more appropriate to give weight to the fact that the greatest number of Labour Parties in Wales which have declared themselves are in favour of a referendum on this matter than to the opinion of a body of placemen, however distinguished, who I understand came down against a referendum by only one vote? In view of the present climate of public expenditure cuts, can my hon. Friend now seriously maintain that the devolution proposals are a priority of this Government?

My hon. Friend must appreciate that if we are to give the fullest consideration to all the various viewpoints expressed to the Government on this and any other subject, it is right to wait for those responses. But it is equally important to give due weight to every point of view in Wales, whether it comes from a large body or a small one.

Has the Minister received any representations from the Farmers' Union of Wales or the National Farmers' Union of England and Wales? If so, are they both in favour of devolution?

We have certainly received views from the National Farmers" Union. Perhaps the best thing that I can do is to write to the hon. Gentleman setting out the views that have been expressed to us.

Does not my hon. Friend think it necessary, apart from the representations which are being made, that the Government should be giving further consideration, in view of the severe and heavy cuts which will fall on Wales—inevitable and no doubt necessary—to some totally new policy, since the £15 million or more per year which, according to the Government, devolution is likely to cost, could be far better spent on augmenting funds for Wales, which faces such severe cuts under the new White Paper?

My hon. Friend must appreciate that any costs of establishing a devolved Assembly in Wales are unlikely to be met in the immediate future. If he considers the White Paper on Public Expenditure he will see that devolution costs are part of the costs listed as coming from the Contingency Fund and not from any other sources in Wales.

Does my hon. Friend not accept that any devolution to Wales, involving a further unnecessary and expensive tier of government, is an extravagance that this country and Wales can well do without? When can we stop this nonsense?

We are always pleased to receive comments from hon. Members throughout the United Kingdom on our proposals. What we are proposing is not an extra tier of government——

Of course it is.

My hon. Friend knows that we had a four-day debate in which this subject was raised. I am sure that when the Bill is published he will be able to express his view on this and any other subject.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what financial aid he has made to the Welsh Development Corporation during the present year; and what is the planned level of aid for the year 1976–77.

Provision has been made for the payment of £67,500 to the Development Corporation for Wales in 1975–76. It will be for the Welsh Development Agency, in consultation with my Department, to determine the level of grant aid for 1976–77.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the Scottish Council (Development and Industry) already has a grant going through to 1977 at a level double that which the Development Corporation for Wales has had for the year to which he referred? Is he aware that, as a result, with the two bodies competing in exactly the same sphere of attracting industry, the Scottish Council has a decided advantage? Will he press the Welsh Development Agency to ensure that the funds available to the Development Corporation for Wales are the same as those available in Scotland?

If the hon. Gentleman is relying, as he seems to be, on simple arithmetic, perhaps I should point out to him that the population of Scotland is different from that of Wales. I am confident that he will know that 1976–77 is the last of the three years for which the grants have been agreed. The matter is now in the court of the Welsh Development Agency, which I am sure will do its best, within its resources, to meet the needs of Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish statistics showing the increase or decrease in the number of administrative and clerical jobs in the public sector in Wales during the past 12 months.

The Department of Employment provisionally estimates that the number in the public administration category, which covers a large proportion of administrative and clerical employees in central and local government, increased by 5,100 in Wales between September 1974 and September 1975.

Subject to the overriding need to reduce and keep down the number employed by the Government, will the hon. Gentleman assure us that he will continue to press for the implementation of proposals to transfer some administrative jobs—not only in the Civil Service but also in the grossly swollen headquarters staff of public corporations such as the British Steel Corporation and the National Coal Board—from London to Wales, particularly North Wales, where such jobs are badly needed?

I am receptive to a plea for North Wales. I know, from conditions locally, that there may be a point in what the hon. Gentleman says, but Wales overall has more than its fair share of dispersed jobs. On the hon. Gentleman's first question, central Government staffing is currently under close scrutiny and local government staffing is being monitored through the joint staff watch.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has yet completed his consultations with the Welsh Development Agency, the Welsh TUC and the Welsh Council of the CBI about guidelines for the Welsh Development Agency.

No, Sir.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman explain his refusal to allow hon. Members to see the draft guidelines? Is it not about time that open government added discussion in this place to secret negotiations with the TUC and CBI?

I am not sure what refusal the hon. Gentleman has in mind. What we are doing is consulting those who will be guided by the guidelines. Following those consultations, draft guidelines will be issued, with or without any amendments that may be necessary. At that stage, well before any decision about finalising the guidelines, there will be ample opportunity for anyone, including in particular hon. Members, to comment, before the guidelines are finalised. I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would be the first to agree that those who are to be guided should be the first to be consulted in the formative stage.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that we welcome the fact that he has now given an answer which is somewhat different from the Written Answer in which he said that the guidelines would not be available to hon. Members until they were in their final form? If he is now saying that this House will be consulted on the guidelines, I welcome that fact.

What I am saying is that we are now in the early formative stages of consultation to ensure that the views of those who will be guided by the guidelines are taken into account. Obviously, before the final guidelines are set out, there will be an opportunity for anyone, including any hon. Member, to consult further if he wishes. I see no difficulties there.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept that in Committee on the Bill there was detailed discussion of a number of controversial points that will certainly be covered by the guidelines? In that case, will he accept that there should be consultation also with Welsh local authorities, who have a deep interest in the matter, and with other bodies, such as the Development Corporation—and, indeed, everyone with a direct interest—before the final draft is submitted to the House?

When the draft guidelines are published there will be ample opportunity for anyone to comment. I should have thought that that was taken as read. I have read this morning the Official Report of the Committee debates and the points made by the Under-Secretary. I am confident that I am carrying out to the full what he said in Committee. I cannot see any difficulty.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will pay an official visit to Newport.

I did so on 16th January and before that on 28th November last.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware of the concern in Newport at the prejudice shown in favour of Cardiff, particularly in relation to the proposal for the dispersal of Ministry of Defence personnel and also in relation to development area status? Is it considered that only Cardiff has a problem or is the Welsh Office, like the Western Mail, experiencing difficulty in seeing over the top of Rhymney Hill?

Having been in Newport on three or four occasions during the past six or seven months, in company with my hon. Friend, I am aware, I hope, of many of the problems of Newport and Gwent as a whole. With regard to the dispersal of Ministry of Defence staff, this subject will be raised in the debate tonight and my hon. Friend's comments will be dealt with by my right hon. Friend.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for Newport (Mr. Hughes) accept that as St. Mellons is only eight miles away from Newport, and the Rhymney Valley and other valleys adjacent to Cardiff are a little further, the dispersal of jobs to St. Mellons is just as likely—indeed, more likely—to benefit the people of the valley that I am talking about as it would if they were dispersed to Newport itself?

I recognise that my hon. Friends are very stout fighters for their constituencies. All I would say is that my anxiety is to get new jobs to whatever part of Wales we can get them. I would add that eight miles is perhaps an exaggeration of the distance between the two sites. It is four miles.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the state of public transport in Mid-Wales; and if he will make a statement.

I refer the hon. Member to the answers given to him on 19th January and 5th February.—[Vol. 903, c. 898–900; Vol. 904, c. 728.]

I am grateful to the Minister for reminding me of those answers. I am sure that he is aware that many villages in Mid-Wales are without any means of transport whatsoever. Is he aware that many of my constituents are worried about the future of the Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury line? May we have an assurance that the work carried out on the line between Aberystwyth and Machynlleth is permanent and not temporary?

The repair to storm damage to the Aberystwyth railway line is to go ahead. I understand that the work that is in hand will cost £250,000, and should be completed by Easter. That sum of £250,000 will be spent on permanent work.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that as long as the Government cling to their low investment programme in railways there will be a very heavy shadow over the Welsh lines, and the central Welsh lines in particular, whatever the Secretary of State for the Environment says? Will he and his right hon. Friend do their utmost to save these lines if the threat should come?

We are well aware of the contribution of the railways in Wales. The changes in the frequency and quality of the rail service are entirely a matter for the management of British Rail. Nevertheless, representations by anyone who is affected should be made to the TUCC.

In view of the increasingly gloomy outlook for the subsidised bus services in the countryside, will the Minister look sympathetically again at flexible ideas for small mini-buses, shared buses with the Post Office, and so on, which were examined closely by the last Conservative Government?

The Government have decided to promote a series of experimental projects to test measures for improving accessibility and for developing a cheaper and more flexible system to help the more remote areas, and one of those projects will be in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what discussions he has had with the National Coal Board on the future of opencast mining in Wales.

None, Sir. Authorisation for opencast coal mining is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy, but my right hon. and learned Friend is consulted by him on all applications in Wales because of his environmental responsibilities.

With the National Coal Board's hungry eyes upon the shallow coal in South Wales, is there not an urgent need for the Minister to make clear that we are not prepared to accept a second violation of our valleys, which are still only recovering from the assaults of the last Industrial Revolution? Is not my hon. Friend aware that at Abersychan the Coal Board is plotting to create, over a period of many unendurable years for my constituents, one of the largest holes and highest tips in Wales, which will make a mockery of all the splended land reclamation schemes already in existence and all the replanning that has taken place for improved housing and schools which are now coming to that area?

I am sure my hon. Friend is aware that if the Coal Board does make a formal application for authorisation to work on the site, which is causing such serious concern, there will be an opportunity for objections to be made, and if objections are made to the local planning authority, as I suspect the question intimates, an inquiry will be held. At that time my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy will be obliged to take into account all the circumstances that my hon. Friend has so vividly painted.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales to what extent and in what areas reductions in Government expenditure are planned for Wales; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what effects he anticipates will result in Wales from the Government's announced restraint in public expenditure.

The detailed analysis of future public expenditure in Wales is contained in Tables 3–3 and 3–4 of Cmnd. 6393. We have been able to give high priority to industrial regeneration, to completing the M4, and to maintaining standards in the Health Service.

While I applaud and support the decision of the Government in the White Paper to sustain the building of new houses, does the right hon. and learned Gentleman not agree that the failure to provide grants for the maintenance or improvement of the older dwellings means that thousands of houses are now deteriorating and may be beyond repair? Does this not create a vast new problem, which could be prevented?

I presume that the hon. Gentleman has followed the Chancellor's recent announcement of the grant of an additional £4 million to Wales to alleviate unemployment, which I shall be spending in order to improve housing stock in Wales. The local authorities will be told shortly how the extra money is to be disbursed.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say how many civil servants in the Defence Department he thinks will go to Cardiff, in view of the announced cutback? Will he say how many pit closures he expects in Wales, in view of the injunction on the National Coal Board to operate commercially? Does he agree with the prediction in the White Paper about the level of unemployment in the next two years?

In reply to the first part of the supplementary question, about 5,000 staff will go to Cardiff, subject to the outcome of the defence review which may have the effect of reducing the number. The coal industry in Wales has received a measure of confidence in recent years. There has been increased recruitment, and substantial investment.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend bear in mind that it will be a question of where the staff are prepared to go? Is he aware that they have indicated that St. Mellons, to say the least, is not popular with them, but that they would be prepared to go to Tredegar Park?

I am sure that my hon. Friend, with his usual skill, will make these points to my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence in tonight's debate.

Is not the central fact about the Government's policy that cuts in new programmes are less than the interest on the National Debt, which will amount to 8½ times the Welsh Office budget for 1978–79? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman explain why the Welsh share of the total United Kingdom expenditure on housing is planned to fall each year up to 1978–79, when it will be 3·4 per cent. compared with 4·6 per cent. last year?

After the appalling house building record of the party that the hon. Gentleman supports, when public house building was a disgrace——

Answer!

The hon. Member must not get angry. He must contain himself. He is behaving in a ridiculous fashion. All the figures for the future are much higher than those for house building in the last year of the Conservative Government. I am proud of the number of houses built in Wales last year.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the vast majority of people in Wales are appalled at the Government's priorities in these matters—axing house building while expenditure on the MRCA is continuing? Is it not time that the Government got their social priorities correct?

The hon. Gentleman has obviously not read the White Paper. He has not seen the forecast for the year ahead. He does not know that in the last year in the public sector in Wales we built 142 per cent. more houses than were built in the last year of the Conservative Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is satisfied with progress in public sector house building in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

The public sector figure of 8,336 dwellings completed in 1975 represents a substantial improvement on the 1974 miserable figure of 3,674. The local authority contribution of 7,332 houses is their best performance since 1968 and is 140 per cent. up on 1974. This is particularly gratifying in view of the appalling record of house building that we inherited just two years ago, and we are grateful to all concerned.

In these admittedly difficult economic times, does my hon. Friend agree that the people of Wales will welcome the figures he has just given? Does he agree that nothing will do more to assist in alleviating the unemployment problem than expansion in the construction industry? Can he indicate how these figures apply in the Anglesey and Gwynedd areas, where unemployment is unacceptably high?

These are not just figures; they represent homes for people who would otherwise not have them. I know the interest that my right hon. Friend has taken in the island of Anglesey and I am sure that he will be pleased to know that in 1974 the local authority on Anglesey built 67 houses, while in 1975 it built 122—nearly double the previous year's figures. I am sure that he will be equally pleased to hear that the schemes in prospect suggest good news for the coming year.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the 9,471 improvement grants given last year represent only about one-third of the total in 1973 and 1972? In view of the reply given by the Secretary of State to the last Question, may we look forward to a return to the 1972 and 1973 figures?

I am certainly aware of the lower take-up of improvement grants. I am surprised that the hon. Member has such a short memory, though I always appreciated that he had a convenient one. The decision to reduce improvement grants from 75 per cent. to 50 per cent. was made by his Government before they left office. We increased that figure for a certain number of people for an extended period.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will withdraw his departmental opposition to a meeting between the Rhymney Valley District Council, the Pontygwindy Housing Association and the Housing Corporation aimed at amicably resolving the financial situation of the Pontygwindy Housing Association and avoiding a High Court Action.

The Department has at no time expressed any opposition to a meeting between the Rhymney Valley District Council, the Pontygwindy Housing Association and the Housing Corporation.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I have with me a letter from the Housing Corporation to the Rhymney Valley District Council which says:

"I have just heard from the Welsh Office by telephone"—

Order. I am afraid it is not customary to quote from documents during Question Time. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Evans) should be seeking information rather than imparting it.

Is the Secretary of State aware that there is evidence from the Housing Corporation that the Welsh Office has put obstacles in the way of the parties to this complex dispute meeting together and that I am prepared to furnish him with that evidence? Does he agree that it is sad when people who are engaged in an argument are told by civil servants in the Welsh Office that they must continue arguing, rather than settle the matter? Is he aware that they have been ordered to go on quarrelling when an amicable settlement would have been possible? Is he further aware that this is not now possible, because the hearing in the High Court starts tomorrow morning?

I should be most grateful for a sight of the letter from which my hon. Friend sought to quote. It would not be right for my Department to participate in any such meetings at present, because as long as the matter is before the High Court it is sub judice. As for the difficulties in this matter over the years, the primary responsibility for overseeing the affairs of the Housing Association lies with the Housing Corporation.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what effect recent Government measures introduced to alleviate unemployment are having in Wales.

Wales has already obtained substantial benefits from the series of measures announced since April 1975. One hundred and eighty-four projects have been recommended under the Job Creation Scheme, providing a total of 1,885 jobs; the Temporary Employment Subsidy Scheme has saved 1,414 jobs to date; 1,670 school leavers have been taken on by firms benefiting under the Recruitment Subsidy Scheme; £3¼ million has been allocated for advance factory building, and an additional £6½ million has been made available for housing improvements.

Encouraging as those figures are, is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that many of us would wish they were geared more to the specific regional problems within Wales? Can he anticipate what effect the measures announced the week before last are likely to have in the Principality?

Two parts of these proposals are of particular importance to Wales. First, the extension of the temporary employment subsidy to include redundancies of 10 or more workers and its extension from six months to 12 months will be of particular significance in Wales, because we have a large proportion of small industrial concerns. Secondly, the £4 million help given to the construction industry—making a total of £6½ million since April 1975—will be of particular value to the housing industry and to the construction industry generally.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the present extraordinarily high level of unemployment in Wales is partly due to the fact that for a long time between the last two General Elections his Government allowed inflation to run almost unhindered?

The hon. Gentleman knows that that is a ridiculous proposition, which has been paraded in this House time and again. We are anxious to bring down the unacceptably high level of unemployment at the earliest possible opportunity, and the proposals of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will go some way towards dealing with the situation.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the Government's additional provision of training and retraining in Wales is also very important in this context? Does he hold out any hope of additional training facilities in Gwynedd, where young people have to travel very long distances to obtain adequate training?

Training is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment, and I know that he is aware of the problems. I met the Confederation of Engineering Workers for the whole of North Wales during the recess and listened to their observations. I have ensured that my right hon. Friend is fully aware of the needs of North Wales as a whole, and Gwynedd in particular.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that one of the most profound causes of unemployment in Wales is heavy company taxation? Will he use his influence with the Chancellor of the Exchequer not only in this direction but also to reduce the 25 per cent. rate of VAT, which is hitting employment in the domestic electrical appliances industry?

The hon. Gentleman knows that that is a matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many improvement grants were made for homes in South Glamorgan in 1975.

Four hundred and twenty-one in Cardiff and 188 in the Vale of Glamorgan, making 609 in South Glamorgan. This is a provisional figure and includes improvements to both private and local authority dwellings.

In view of the high rateable values in South Glamorgan, does the Minister consider that improvement grants will cease to be an effective instrument of housing policy?

The present rateable value limit of £175 per annum is proving to be very favourable to the people of Wales. Only 10 per cent. of the housing stock of the Principality is outside the limit. The limit does not apply to properties which are converted to letting. Our experience shows that rateable values are not the limiting factor suggested by the hon. Gentleman.

In view of the age of so much of the housing in Wales, does the Minister accept that a cutback in improvement grants as projected in the White Paper will mean that more houses will become derelict than the number built, about which the Department boasts?

I wish that the hon. Gentleman would choose his words with more care. There has been no restriction in the provision of improvement grants by local authorities.