asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he proposes to issue a circular to housing authorities on the availability of central Government finance in 1977.

The Council for the Principality has recommended local authorities to accept my proposal that each housing authority should for 1977–78 receive a block allocation to meet all capital housing requirements—new building, purchase of land, improvements to council houses and acquisition of existing properties. When the local authorities' views are fully known, I shall consider whether a further circular is necessary.

I welcome the Minister's return to good health. May I ask him, however, to explain why housing is due to take the most savage cut of all when the spending on housing per capita in Wales is below the average for the United Kingdom and when we have such a stock of old housing to renew or replace?

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his kind remarks to me. However, there has been no cut in Welsh new house-building provision for 1977–78. On the contrary, the White Paper provision was increased by some £20 million in July of this year.

I, too, welcome the Minister back to the Dispatch Box. I also welcome the system of block alloca- tions which is now being introduced. On the other hand, I should like to ask the Minister on what formula these allocations to each of the districts in Wales will be based.

I thank the hon. Gentleman in similar tones to those I expressed to the hon. Member for Conway (Mr. Roberts). I am glad that the hon. Gentleman welcomes our new proposals about the block allocations, which are designed to give greater flexibility to local housing authorities so that they can decide their own needs and how best to meet them. The criteria that we are using are those of population, the number of council houses, the past building record and the percentage of unfit houses. I know that some hon. Members, on all sides of the House, might have thought that we could have included waiting lists. Unfortunately, there is no common basis of compiling waiting lists and a comparison between the various districts would not, therefore, be possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many area health authorities in Wales when first constituted had no members of the nursing profession in their composition; and what is the present position.

The answer to the first part of the Question is "None". At present, the Clwyd Area Health Authority does not include someone with current nursing experience.

What was the argument which persuaded my hon. Friend in the first instance not to have representatives of the nursing profession on the Clwyd Area Health Authority?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising the matter. All nominations for membership of the authority from the various organisations that were invited to nominate were considered very carefully, but at the end of the day, and taking into account all the circumstances, it seemed that the balance of membership which now obtains in Clwyd was the most appropriate. It includes someone with former nursing experience.

Will the hon. Gentleman take it from me that there is serious discontent in the ranks of the nursing profession about the absence of any representation on this authority?

The fact that the lady to whom the hon. Gentleman may well be referring was not included was no reflection whatsoever on her contribution. There is no statutory obligation to have a nursing member.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the standards of literacy and numeracy in Welsh secondary schools.

Standards of literacy and numeracy will have to rise if they are to keep pace with the demands of society.

That is hardly an answer to the Question. Will the Minister give an assurance that, before he embarks on the great debate about literacy and numeracy and the sensitive subjects of the curriculum and teaching methods, he will, unlike the Prime Minister, consult the teaching profession?

I should like to emphasise that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister wants a national debate in which everyone can join. Our priority is always our children and the quality of the education they are to receive. I should be very grateful to receive from the hon. Gentleman, who has more than a passing interest in education, his considered views, and in detail.

I was the only Back-Bench Member who was present to hear the speech of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister at Oxford. I would say that what the Prime Minister was trying to point out—[Interruption.]

Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will ask a question.

That was merely the preamble, Mr. Speaker. Does my hon. Friend agree that what the Prime Minister was trying to point out was that certain questions are being asked about standards? Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that others besides members of the teaching profession are interested in these matters?

I agree with the points made by my hon. Friend. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made his points in such a way that many people in Britain were glad that the debate had been started by him. As regards mathematics, there is some cause for concern. Perhaps it is true that there is a justifiable feeling that standards of numeracy and literacy among school leavers are not up to present-day requirements. I think that that was what my right hon. Friend had in mind when he made his speech.

Following the hon. Gentleman's inquiries, is it correct to say that the standards of numeracy and literacy in Wales are far higher than the general tenor of the Prime Minister's speech would suggest? Since that speech I have made inquiries in my own area, and that seems to be the position. Is it the hon. Gentleman's conclusion that the curriculum is infinitely more important than the method of teaching?

The Prime Minister is the Prime Minister of Great Britain. However, I can say that there has been a levelling up of reading standards between England and Wales. In 1956 children in England were on average somewhat more competent readers of English than their counterparts in Wales, but in 1971 no significant differences were found between the two countries. I have recently commissioned the National Foundation for Educational Research to conduct a further survey of reading standards in both English and Welsh.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the considerable and growing concern of employers in Wales at the standards they find in numeracy and literacy among school leavers whom they employ? Does he agree that this is a very serious consideration in Wales, where we desperately need to attract new industry and employ more school leavers?

Yes, the CBI is worried, but if the hon. Gentleman had read the Bullock Report of recent years he would have found that for 50 years the employers of Great Britain have been complaining that educational standards are not good enough. I cannot agree that standards have fallen sharply in recent years. There is no valid statistical evidence to justify some of the wilder allegations now being made.

Is my hon. Friend aware of any evidence that standards have fallen at all?

The debate will find out precisely that.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish a list of new industrial enterprises that have been established in the Blaenau Gwent, Cardiff and Shotton travel-to-work areas since March 1974, together with the number of jobs currently provided and the number anticipated when full production is reached.

As the answer to the Question involves much detail I have arranged for it to be included in the Official Report. In brief, a total of 23 manufacturing firms are known by my Department to have opened in the three years since March 1974. These presently employ 1,150 people and when fully manned promise 2,300 jobs. In addition, firms which have agreed to set up in these areas but have not yet done so promise a further 1,300 jobs..

Are not those figures ludicrously and absurdly inadequate to provide for the growing number of redundancies and the swelling total of unemployment? Is it not a fact that the only chance of providing the badly needed jobs resulting from the closure, for example, of Courtaulds is for the Government to reverse their policies, reduce taxation and allow private enterprise to get on with providing the jobs?

The hon. Gentleman is entitled to his own views, but in some areas and industries it is private enterprise that has failed.

I welcome the efforts that have been made by my right hon. and learned friend in attracting, in difficult circumstances, industries to the Blaenau Gwent area. Some of us at least would like to give a warm welcome to the WDA's announcement that it will take over responsibility for developing the Rassau site. Had it not been for the efforts that the Government made to establish that agency, we should not have had this assistance.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. The action of the WDA this morning was welcome in that it has announced its intentions. The House will be glad to know that it intends to develop an area in Rassau that will provide 100 acres for industrial purposes. This is a significant development, which I hope will be welcomed.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman satisfied with the role of the task forces in these areas, especially in the Clwyd area? Does he believe that they have substantially contributed to finding a solution to these problems?

The task forces were set up by my predecessor some years ago and carried out surveys of needs at that time. The situation has changed since then. We have to ensure that our proposals match whatever needs arise in future.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell us why he refuses to publish detailed figures on individual projects but publishes them subsequently in the Economic Bulletin? Whether published or not, do not the figures reveal, against a background of 27,000 redundancies this year, that the impetus for creating new jobs in the steel areas has come to a standstill? Does he agree with the blunt verdict on this matter by Mr. Kirkwood of the Welsh Industrial Advisory Board in the report on the Industry Act 1972?

I shall look into the question of publishing or publication, but I fear that the hon. Gentleman drafted his supplementary question before he heard the good news of the action of the Welsh Development Agency this morning. That is a significant development that will allow for more than 1,000 jobs in the first phase and eventually 3,000 to 4,000 jobs.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his target figure for new starts by local authority housing departments in Wales in 1977.

We do not set targets for local authority housing departments.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that that is a totally inadequate answer in view of the housing needs in Wales? Does he have a target for total public and private sector building needs for Wales in the next year?

I gave the hon. Gentleman an answer on 29th October from which he was entitled to draw, and could draw, certain implications regarding new housing in 1976–77 and up to 1978–79. I should point out to the hon. Gentleman that it is extremely difficult to place validity on such figures. For example, they ignored the extra £30 million that my right hon. and learned Friend announced for expenditure on housing in Wales this year and the £20 million announced for next year. Further, the new block allocations, which the hon. Member has welcomed, mean that local authorities will have the discretion to switch resources from new house building to the acquisition and repair of older houses if they think that that meets the needs of their areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what progress has been made in securing premises for the Welsh Assembly; and when he anticipates concluding arrangements for purchasing these premises.

I announced, in reply to a Question from my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Roderick) on 26th October, that the Government intended to accommodate the Assembly in the Exchange, Cardiff. Completion of the lease is expected by the end of the year.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there is general satisfaction in Wales that the new building is likely to be more practical than that previously considered for the Assembly? Will he comment on reports that the detailed agreement cannot be completed until about October of next year? If that were the case, would it permit the Assembly to go into operation in the spirng of 1978 as has previously been anticipated?

It is my intention that the work which is necessary for changing the Exchange building will be completed in good time for when the Assembly comes into operation. I anticipate no difficulty about the lease. It is expected that the contracts for the work will be entered into in the spring of next year, and that will be in good time. I am not aware of any of the difficulties that the hon. Gentleman canvasses.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the satisfaction to which the hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Wigley) has referred would be more general if the Assembly were to be sited in a more convenient place in Wales—for example, in Mid-Wales, which would be far more convenient for representatives who will be coming from various parts of the Principality? Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that it will be within the purview of the Assembly, if and when Parliament decides that it is to be set up, to have the right to decide where the Assembly should be sited?

I should have said that I am glad that the hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Wigley) has welcomed the announcement. It will obviously be for the Assembly in due course to decide where it wants to meet. That is the sort of issue on which I expect there to be a great deal of argument from my right hon. Friend and from many other Members who represent other areas. However, Cardiff is the capital of Wales. I regard it as right and proper—I hope that the Assembly will take the same view—that it should meet in the capital city, whatever the convenience of meeting anywhere else.

Without discussing the merits and the nature of the Government's devolution proposals, as there must be uncertainty in view of the precarious future of the Government and of legislation, may I ask whether the Secretary of State thinks it appropriate that the Government should be committed to substantial expenditure in respect of legislation which has not yet been passed?

I have no hesitation in saying that the Government's future is not precarious. The Government will carry out their manifesto and their programme. I should be seriously at fault were I not to make the necessary preparations to ensure that there is a home for the Assembly when it is established.

Will the Secretary of State heed further the suggestion made by the right hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. Hughes)? As the Assembly is a new departure, is it not important that the site should be geographically convenient for the whole of Wales? Will the Secretary of State consider the possibility of siting the Assembly at Newtown, where there is a new town development?

I recognise the strength with which the hon. and learned Gentleman is putting forward his case, perhaps with his tongue in his cheek. I am sure that he will be putting a similar case for the siting of the headquarters of the Development Board for Rural Wales. He might have to elect whether the Assembly or the headquarters should be sited there.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what were the total administrative and physical costs expended before the plans to house an Assembly in the Temple of Peace and Health were abandoned; why the intended capital outlay to house the Assembly has increased by more than £1 million since April; what length of lease, and on what terms, is being obtained at the Exchange; and what is the total anticipated commitment including the capital outlay for the Exchange project.

I understand that about £17,000 was spent by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment on studies of the Temple of Peace by consultants, together with a further £7,000 on internal departmental activities. The capital costs at the Exchange are higher because the building is bigger and older; but these costs are largely offset by lower running costs, greater availability of accommodation and other factors. Thus the total costs of the two projects are similar. The current market rental will be paid for the Exchange. The lease is for 20 years but can be terminated after 10 years.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm the lead story—the happy story—in The Times this morning indicating that the Government do not intend to proceed with the devolution Bill becoming an Act without a referendum in Wales? As the Marplan poll made it unmistakably clear that the people of Wales do not want devolution in any form, is it not outrageous not only that these sums should have been expended but, what is more, that at a time when the people of Wales are more concerned about housing their own people millions more should be spent upon housing an unwanted salaried Assembly?

I have no knowledge at all of the statement in this morning's edition of The Times.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman take the opportunity of making his own and the Government's total rebuttal of the allegations made by the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) in a recent newspaper article that civil servants could not be trusted to run the Welsh Assembly?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have made no such statement. Therefore, no reference can be made to it. I must ask for your protection, if such I need, as it is entirely taken out of context and it is a very serious allegation to make.

I deprecate the hurling of charges, especially at Question time, but the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) has made his position quite clear.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the West Wales Steel Development Committee.

The committee has not sought a meeting, but I have close and regular contact with many of the bodies represented on it.

Does the Secretary of State agree with West Glamorgan County Council that the consents given by the Government in July fall far short of the British Steel Corporation's strategy and the case advanced by the West Wales Steel Development Committee that West Wales faces further massive job losses and any further delay will put in jeopardy the chances of the area competing in steel products in United Kingdom and world markets?

I am deeply aware of the concern in West Glamorgan, and I am in close personal touch with the leaders of the steel industry in that part of the world. I spoke to them only last Friday. The hon. Gentleman referred to delays, but the Government have made a firm offer to the industry amounting to the expenditure of £350 million, which is nearly 30 times more than the proposed cut in increased Government expenditure on the Welsh Office Vote. If there is any question of losing time, I hope that the steel industry will take up the whole of that offer as soon as possible. I regret that it has not done so.

Is it not true that the money in question does not add to steelmaking capacity and that that is the central point that people are pressing on the Government?

The hon. Gentleman should familiarise himself with the problem and perhaps discuss it with his hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer). The offer we have made is that the industry can invest in expenditure of £350 million on coke ovens, continuous casting work and a hot strip mill. That offer does not prejudice the reappraisal that the Government have asked the BSC to make of the needs of Shotton and development at Port Talbot. No one is more passionately concerned than I to ensure that we have a viable steel industry in this country, in particular in my constituency. Against that background we have given the go-ahead for the necessary investment at Port Talbot, and I hope that the BSC will take it up.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he proposes to meet the Welsh National Water Development Authority.

I had arranged to meet early in November the late Chairman of the Authority. Hon. Members will join me in sending deepest sympathy to Lady Brecon. I shall now resume the regular meetings which I had been holding, prior to my illness, with representatives of the Authority.

We share my hon. Friend's regret at the death of Lord Brecon. Our arguments were always about policy and never of a personal nature. Will my hon. Friend intervene in the proposal made by the Authority for direct billing? I am disturbed to find that the Authority is still progressing the proposal, and I ask my hon. Friend to stop it at this stage. Will he also speak to his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment about taking the Craig Goch reservoir out of the regional context and considering it in the United Kingdom context, so that we may have the maximum reservoir there and not the minimum reservoir as is now proposed?

We have already told water authorities that in considering whether to extend direct billing they must pay close attention to the overriding need to avoid any net increase in public expenditure. At a meeting last Thursday—at which the Government were represented by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Sport and Recreation—with representatives of the local authority associations and the National Water Council, the question of direct billing was discussed. As a result of that meeting, we are considering what further advice should be given. Most hon. Members will be glad to know that three authorities at least have come together and will, we hope, agree on a solution to the problem of Craig Goch that will result in the supply of water to people in Wales and other parts of the United Kingdom.

Does the Minister accept that the Welsh experience of the long drought this summer is final proof, if proof were needed, of the urgent need for a truly Welsh national water authority, covering the whole of Wales, invested with adequate powers to develop our rich water resources, with power to sell surplus resources to the industries and conurbations in England which need them and to establish a Welsh national grid?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I do not agree with a word he has uttered on this subject. I believe that the resources of the United Kingdom must be developed as a whole for the betterment of all our people.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate that the proposed arrangement for collecting water charges can only mean rocketing costs followed by great public indignation? Does he further agree that local authorities are perfectly capable of doing this job—as they have done in the past—at far less cost?

The answer is not quite as simple as my hon. Friend suggests. My information is that it is not only a question of whether local authorities are capable of doing this job. Some local authorities want direct billing and others want to continue the present practice. The question of cost is a matter of doubt. Further information is necessary before advice can be given. The WNWDA is paying £1·16 million to local authorities this year for the collection service. The Authority's estimate is that direct billing would save them £600,000 a year. The solutions are not quite as simple as they might seem to be at first sight.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what discussions he is having with local authorities concerning public expenditure cuts.

Public expenditure is regularly discussed at meetings of the Welsh Consultative Council on Local Government Finance, chaired by my right hon. and learned Friend.

Does my hon. Friend agree that if there are to be any cuts they should be made in the number of chief executives and not of dustmen? Does he further agree that the huge bureaucracy created by the Conservative reorganisation of local government has been astronomical in cost and has played a major part in hampering the recovery of the British economy?

There is a great deal to be said for the Chiefs and Indians argument which my hon. Friend has put forward today and on other occasions. My view is that local government reorganisation did not help to make local government either more efficient or cheaper.

Is the Minister aware that we on this Bench do not accept that there should be any reduction in public expenditure in Wales, particularly on housing and social services? Will he ensure that local authorities in Wales are aware of the needs of their areas and the need for public expenditure?

The hon. Gentleman likes to refer to cuts, but I remind him that the July measures, which involved cuts in Wales of £12 million, were accompanied by an increase in expenditure on housing in Wales of £20 million. Therefore, the net effect was a gain—not a loss—for Wales in public expenditure terms.

Will the Minister confirm that, contrary to recent newspaper reports, on a population basis Wales gets a fair share of the rate support grant, her population being 5·6 per cent. of the total for England and Wales and the amount of rate support grant received by Wales in 1976–77 being 7·4 per cent. of the total?

I am advised that Wales's share of rate support grant is higher per capita than that in England.

Does the Minister know what percentage of the expenditure of local authorities in Wales goes on salaries, wages and so on as opposed to the other services?

I invite the hon. and learned Gentleman to table that question, and I will see that he gets an answer.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has reconsidered his decision about the costs of the Cleddau Bridge.

No new facts have emerged to warrant this.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the £1¼ million burden of interest which has to be borne by Dyfed, which includes the old counties of Cardigan and Carmarthen, which had no responsibility for building this bridge—in fact, this burden should be borne by the Government—is equal to the total of the cuts in roads and almost equal to the total cuts in education? Is not this totally unjust?

As regards the responsibility of Carmarthen and Ceredigion, we—I am one of them—must carry the burden for the activities of the old county council of Pembroke. This is the result of local government reorganisation perpetrated by the Administration of the Conservatives. I understand that for the past year the net expenditure for the county was just over £1 million, not £1¼ million.

Should not the Secretary of State make it clear that the responsibility for the present situation rests not on the old authority but on an unforeseeable disaster which added £7 million or £8 million to the cost of the bridge? I understand that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is to meet local authority representatives this week. Will he take this opportunity of transferring the burden even more equitably to the taxpayer than he has just suggested? Is there not a special need to do so at a time when unemployment in the area is at the shocking level of one in five?

I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would have welcomed the fact that three-quarters of the burden is now being carried by the central Government. We all know the history of the building of this bridge. Pembrokeshire County Council decided to go it alone on the building of the bridge. There was no question of central Government financing while the Conservative Government were in power from 1970 to 1974, except for the statement by the hon. Gentleman on the eve of the 1974 General Election, with all the authority of a Conservative spokesman, that if they were elected to power there would be no toll charges. I greatly look forward to seeing what will happen about that statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give priority to rebuilding Morriston Hospital in view of its state of dilapidation causing a danger to the health of patients and staff.

My right hon. and learned Friend recently visited Morriston Hospital with my hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson). I am well aware of the need for major redevelopment there. We shall take account of this when deciding the future capital programme.

My hon. Friend will be aware that this hospital was built during a wartime emergency and that, despite its deplorable working conditions, it has rendered remarkable service to the community, thanks to the dedication of its staff. Is he aware further that this hospital provides sub-regional service to the whole of South-West Wales and as such deserves the highest priority in future hospital planning?

There is light at the end of the tunnel for this project. The question is to be decided soon as to how much will be invested and precisely when the starting date will be. I, too, wish to say that the work done at Morriston Hospital is magnificent.

I sympathise with the problem at Morriston, but may I ask whether my hon. Friend is aware that the position at Wrexham is even worse—

Order. That is a completely different question that should be on the Order Paper. If the hon. Gentleman wants to ask a question about Wrexham, he can hardly do so on a Question relating to Morriston.

With the greatest respect to you, Mr. Speaker, I intend to couple the argument between Morriston and Wrexham into this question, because the whole question is one of priority. I want to ask my hon. Friend to ensure that Wrexham, which is the one large population centre in Wales which has not had substantial capital spent on it since the establishment of the National Health Service, retains top priority over all other schemes, on two grounds. The first is the merits of the case. The second is that public disquiet, which is already beginning to express itself at the inferior service—

Order. Does the Minister wish to reply?

Briefly, Mr. Speaker. My constituency is next to Wrexham. I know precisely the points my hon. Friend is making.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has received from area health authorities for the fluoridation of water supplies; and if he will give an estimate of the cost of each scheme.

None. Our approval is not required. But I understand that Mid, West and South Glamorgan Area Health Authorities have all decided to introduce new schemes when finances permit. Estimated costs are available only for West and South Glamorgan at about £50,000 and £100,000 respectively.

Is not the Minister aware that the expenditure of such moneys at a time when there is a cut-back in essential services would be viewed with amazement by members of the public and, indeed, by those elected councils in the South Glamorgan area which opposed the introduction of fluoridation, which is an extremely debatable form of compulsory medication?

The Cardiff Community Health Council, the St. Fagan's Community Health Council and all the professional opinion in the area support the area health authority. Fluoridation is by far the cheapest and most effective means of safeguarding dental health. It is our policy to encourage it. Dental health in Wales is not in a good state.

Because one-third of the people over the age of 16 have no teeth and because dental decay sets in before 16, will the Minister give priority to fluoridation? Will he, in particular, encourage other Government services to provide, for instance, voluntary application of fluoride through mouthwashes, fluoride at school and topical application under the National Health Service?

Capital costs such as installations at waterworks should be borne by the central Government and not by individual area health authorities.

Whatever the merits of fluoridation, is it not wrong that it should be carried out by an area health authority which is a nominated body and not by elected bodies, the county councils, as was the case before reorganisation of the National Health Service?

My hon. Friend has adopted a statesmanlike attitude in this matter in his constituency. I expect area health authorities thoroughly to consult local opinion, but their decision is their own in the light of their duty to safeguard health.

Mr. Hooson.

On a point of order Mr. Speaker. Is not Question No. 15 in order?

I am going by the clock. The hon. Gentleman should study the Order Paper.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will consider changing the constitution of the Civil Service Pay Research Unit so as to include independent advice and assessment.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will review the constitution of the Civil Service Pay Research Unit.

May I preface my reply by emphasising that the Pay Research Unit procedures are in suspense during the current period of the Government's pay policies. However, the procedures for determining Civil Service pay have been kept under regular review since they were recommended by the Priestley Royal Commission and the Government are naturally taking the opportunity provided by the current suspension of pay research to look at various aspects of the system. But these are matters which need to be examined very carefully and any suggestions or proposals will have to be the subject of full consultation with the interested parties.

Is the Minister aware of the grave public concern about earnings and related benefits in the nonproductive public service being out of balance with the earnings and related benefits in the productive area? As the public non-productive sector does not seem to be subject to the Pay Code, and nor do the benefits and pensions, is it not time that independent advice was made available to the unit?

The hon. and learned Gentleman is misleading the House and the country by suggesting that civil servants' pay is not subject to Government pay policy. It is. Civil servants have had no more and no less than comparable groups in the private sector.

The Civil Service Pay Research Unit is fully staffed by civil servants. Since hon. Members are prepared to bring in outside advice to determine their own terms and conditions, might that not be right for the Civil Service?

The Government are exploring ways in which it might be possible to ensure that justice is not only done to Civil Service pay but is manifestly seen to be done. I reject the right hon. Gentleman's implication that in some ways there is a conspiracy among civil servants to determine their own rates of pay. That is completely misleading.

Has my hon. Friend noticed that this is a unique parliamentary occasion, because, of the 14 Questions tabled to the Minister for the Civil Service, nine come from the Parliamentary Liberal Party? Is that not unusual, and can he explain this concerted attack on the Civil Service?

I suppose my hon. Friend is right to say that today we are witnessing a new parliamentary phenomenon. Civil servants, public servants, retired policemen, nurses and all the people who have dedicated their lives to the public service must be wondering what they have done to incur the wrath of these Westminster Order Paper warriors.

I do not in any way wish to attack the Civil Service, but will the Minister accept that there is considerable resentment, particularly among pensioners benefiting from private schemes who look at the inflation-proofing of Civil Service pension schemes and find their own standards of living falling? Will the Government consider inflation-proofing both public and private pension schemes and try to bring an end to inflation as soon as possible?

I accept that there may be some resentment among those who are enjoying the benefits of a private pension scheme when they see the inflation-proofed Civil Service scheme. But the feelings of resentment are not based on fact. If the hon. Gentleman examines the basis of the Civil Service indexing of pension schemes, he will see that there is no injustice.

Does my hon. Friend agree that there has been much hypocrisy about Civil Service pensions among Liberal Members? Will he tell the House who introduced the 1971 Pensions (Increase) Act and what was the attitude of the Liberal Party to its introduction?

My hon. Friend, with perception, has reminded me that the 1971 Act was initiated by the Conservative Government. Not one Liberal Member took part in the debate on that Bill in the House of Commons. In the House of Lords the Liberal spokesman strongly welcomed the Bill.

Apart from the intra-parliamentary inter-party row, is not the real problem that, if a pension is indexed on £3,000 today, in 15 years at a 13 per cent, rate of inflation it will be £18,000? That is the real problem facing the Government, the House and the public, and something must be done about it. It is a nonsense economy.

The answer to the right hon. Gentleman's question in mathematics is for him to join the Government in getting inflation down.

Does the Minister appreciate that in addition to the problem of pensions the basic level of salaries is causing wide concern throughout the country, particularly in industries which have lost people to jobs with seemingly less responsibility but with higher salaries in the public service? Is not this a feature that should be examined by the Pay Research Unit?

I should like to see the evidence for the hon. Gentleman's claim. The view that the Civil Service is leading in pay and pensions is not borne out by the facts. Three to four years ago, despite all the advantages now being attributed to Civil Service pay and conditions, we could not attract people from the private sector to the Civil Service. The salaries, pensions and perquisites have not changed in the meanwhile.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service whether his Department has any plans for limiting the extent and the cost of paid public appointments made by Ministers.

No, Sir. Responsibility for appointments rests with departmental Ministers, who, as a matter of policy, keep under review the numbers and costs of the appointments they make. In many cases the numbers of appointments are enumerated in the controlling statute or constitution.

Have the Government considered the case for encouraging the establishing of a committee to look into the whole matter, preferably along the lines of the Public Accounts Committee? Does the Minister accept that, if the Government agreed, that would go at least some way towards allaying the justified suspicions of the apparently endless growth of ministerial appointments to non-political bodies outside the Civil Service?

The hon. Gentleman's opinions and observations are fascinating, but they do not come within my field of responsibility.

In the Government's view, what are the qualities of the new Chairman of Cable and Wireless which prompted the Government to make that appointment?

The qualities and the criteria for such appointments are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if the Civil Service Pay Research Unit has made any comparisons between pensions paid in the private sector and pensions paid in the public sector.

The Pay Research Unit obtains details of the pension arrangements applying in the outside firms covered by its surveys on a confidential basis. This information is included in its reports and is used to adjust Civil Service pay to allow for differences both in pension benefits and pension contributions.

Does the Minister agree that the vast majority of the British population, retired and working, will have a reduction in their standard of living during the next 12 months? How can he defend a system which lets this elite body off that grave result of our economic chaos?

I do not accept that civil servants and the 1 million public servants who have given a lifetime of service to the community and the State are in any way an elite body.