20.
asked the Secretary of State for Transport what is his latest estimate of the profit or loss which will be made by the National Bus Company during the current financial year.
The Chairman of the National Bus Company has told me that he expects to announce a small profit of about £3 million on revenue account for 1976. A similar result is expected in 1977.
Has not the Secretary of State failed to answer the Question? That is so because he has given an answer dealing only with revenue account. Bearing in mind the loss of £19 million made by the NBC in 1975 and the 12 million made in 1974, what is the right hon. Gentleman's estimate of the profit or loss for the current year, based on the same criteria for accountancy?
I am afraid that at this stage I have no information other than that which I have just given, but I wish the hon. Gentleman would be less grudging. I realise that he proposed a Bill to denationalise the National Bus Company in August and also that it was lost by a majority much larger than the difference between the two sides of the House.
The National Bus Company does an extremely good job in difficult circumstances. This relates to the previous questions. The NBC receives revenue support from the counties, but in 1976–77 it is likely to receive 20 per cent. less than its entitlement in terms of the allowance made to the counties in TSG for revenue support.The Secretary of State has taken the words out of my mouth, and I agree that it ill becomes the House to continue to abuse the National Bus Company, which is fighting difficult problems. Should not some reassurance be given about its future by both sides of the House? The National Bus Company has devolved power throughout the country. Is that not an example to other parts of the transport services?
I am sure that the NBC will appreciate the hon. Gentleman's kind and understanding remarks. It would be better if the House examined in more detail some of the problems faced by the NBC in its attempt to maintain services when the necessary revenue support, particularly in rural areas, is lacking.
Does the Minister agree that while we refer to the National Bus Company as a national company, it is in fact a collection of private companies brought together? Is there not a great opportunity for greater public control of this form of transport?
I agree with my hon. Friend's description of the origins of the National Bus Company. It has had a considerable task in developing a single company and, at the same time, allowing for local option and control. There are also problems in integrating the services of the NBC with those of municipal transport authorities. But here, again, progress is being made and there is scope for further useful developments.
The Minister said that this Question was related to the previous one. Is he aware that that is particularly so in relation to NBC and other buses running with many empty seats, especially during off-peak periods? Has the Minister yet discussed with NBC the sale, or other means of availability, of reduced fare concessions, or any of the other schemes that have been put to him as a means of increasing the revenue of NBC during off-peak services and assisting old-age pensioners and others without increasing public expenditure?
I understand that the NBC is looking into some of these ideas, and it has my encouragement in doing so.