asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many additional civil servants, and what associated annual budgeted expenditure, came under his control following the transfer of responsibilities for employment to the Welsh Office.

I have taken over responsibility for the activities of the Manpower Services Commission and the careers service in Wales. This involves 17 posts within the Welsh Office. Estimates for Welsh Office expenditure on the above services in Wales will be presented to Parliament in due course.

Will the Secretary of State accept our best wishes for his tenure of responsibility over at least parts of employment in Wales and our hope that he may be more successful than previous regimes in London at overcoming the problems? Will he give an assurance that he will take a quantified approach, trying to identify how many jobs are needed in each part of Wales and using his employment brief, his industry brief and his responsibility for the Welsh Development Agency together? Further, will he consider bringing forward an economic plan for Wales aimed at overcoming the unemployment problems there?

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Wigley) for his kind remarks, although I do not perhaps agree with him in respect of his advocacy of an economic plan. At the meeting that I had with the Manpower Services Commission on 11th November, I said, following the tenor of the speech I made when I opened the jobcentre in Port Talbot in July, that I wanted an approach to be made, bringing together the various strands of responsibility that I hold, on a travel-to-work basis. It is my hope—and the Manpower Services Commission has agreed—to start with two pilot areas in North Wales in order to look at the industrial needs and at the employment and training needs. We shall seek to marry them, which I have the unique opportunity of doing because so many of these responsibilities are under one roof.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the problems of unemployment in Wales cannot be separated from the unemployment problems in the rest of Britain, and that if we are to solve them we must solve them in the whole of Britain? Does he agree also that there should be no further transfer of functions to the Welsh Office until we can obtain the decision of the people of Wales on their attitude to the Welsh Assembly?

I think that my hon. Friend is mistaken, in the sense that we are not devolving. We are decentralising certain functions, including economic functions, which we believe that it is essential to leave in the Welsh Office as part of the central approach of the United Kingdom Government. There is an opportunity here to bring together industry, which has worked so well since decentralisation—we have had substantial gains from this in Wales—my responsibility for manpower services and, in due course, further and higher education as well. I believe that here we have a unique opportunity of tackling, area by area, the problems of Wales.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that, according to a Written Answer given on Friday last, beween 1st March 1974 and 1st July 1977 the staff of the Welsh Office increased from 1,093 to 1,541, which is an increase of 41 per cent., compared with the general increase in the Civil Service of 6·1 per cent.? Can he assure the House that this increase is entirely accounted for by the increase in functions on the part of the Welsh Office?

One would have thought that the hon. Member would have welcomed the increase, since it is due to the transfer of functions. The Health Service transfer came, I believe, on 1st April 1974, industry came in July 1976, and there has been the transfer of a host of other, minor functions. Generally, the drive in the Welsh Office has been to economise on the number of civil servants in exactly the same way as in the central Departments of Whitehall. What we have done is to decentralise new functions on to the shoulders of the Welsh Office. I should have thought that there would have been a word of welcome for that from the hon. Member.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he next intends to visit Rhyl.

My right hon. and learned Friend has no immediate plans to do so.

I see from today's Order Paper that the Minister's right hon. and learned Friend has a good deal of travelling to do over the next period. When the Secretary of State comes to the Rhyl area, will he be surprised to find a place in which one in five is out of a job and a great many shops are empty, and a place which has now been hit by the consequences of severe flooding also affecting nearby Prestatyn? Is the Minister aware also of the feeling that his Department has rather lost interest in what happens in the area? We are excluded from the Welsh development area, and we have had no jobs under the dispersal of Government jobs scheme. Will the hon. Gentleman therefore encourage his right hon. and learned Friend to come, and to set party politics aside and listen to our grievances?

Where the future and job prospects of any area in Wales are concerned, there are no politics whatsoever. I refute entirely the hon. Member's accusation that the Welsh Office has neglected that part of Wales. I appreciate the many problems that the hon. Member and his community face. I have heard of the problems from him many times in the House. But let me tell him that special measures have so far created or saved just over 1,100 jobs in his constituency and that perhaps some 400 new manufacturing jobs are expected in the area from projects going ahead with the aid of selective financial assistance. The hon. Gentleman may know that the Welsh Development Agency is making direct investment in Western Electric Limited. Finally, with regard to development area status, the Welsh Office is well aware of the case made by the Clwyd County Council, but in the end the matter is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the extent of capital underspending on sewerage schemes in Wales in the year ended 31st March 1977; and if he will make a statement.

District councils, as agents for the Welsh National Water Development Authority, spent £2·8 million out of an allocation of £7 8 million. Reasons for the shortfall are given in paragraph 8·4 of the Authority's annual report.

Is the Minister aware that that shortfall amounts to 73 per cent. of the expected capital spending on sewerage? Is he further aware that there was a shortfall on the water supply schemes of 32 per cent. and an overall shortfall in WNWDA spending of 34 per cent.? Does he not think that this resulted in excessive borrowing on the part of the Authority and that it calls for an inquiry similar to the inquiry that he instigated on the shortfall in housing spending, which, we understand, is again this year running at about £15 million?

Some of the reasons for the shortfall in this industry are spelt out in some detail in the report to which I have referred. I am very concerned if under-investment occurs, and officials in the Welsh Office are already having discussions about remedying the situation, but some of the problems associated with the shortfall in spending on water and sewerage services are a consequence of the types of organisation set up by the Opposition.

Is the Minister aware that in the village of Deiniolen in my constituency people have been waiting for five years for sewerage plants to be installed and that after a five-year wait, when money was given as the reason for not going forward, the programme has finally been abandoned because there is not sufficient finance? Does not the Minister regard this as totally unsatisfactory? Can the Welsh Office become more involved to ensure that such a situation does not happen again?

Individual schemes are a matter for the authorities themselves to decide. If the hon. Gentleman will write to me or come to see me on this case, I shall make further inquiries into it.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he plans to visit Carmarthen.

My right hon. and learned Friend has no immediate plans to do so officially.

When the Secretary of State does visit Carmarthen, will the hon. Gentleman ask him to call at County Hall, where he will learn that the slashing cuts in expenditure on roads, together with the £1 million and more interest which the people of Carmarthen, Cardigan and Llanelli, as well as Pembroke, have to pay on the cost of the Cleddau Bridge, will mean that, if this is persisted in, the principal roads in the county of Dyfed will be resurfaced once every 50 years, the non-principal roads once every 86 years and the thousands of miles of non-classified roads once every 289 years? Does he not consider that this will lead to an appalling situation on the roads which will mean no further or little further development in industry or in modern farming, which employs bulk tankers?

I must disagree with the rather alarmist and exaggerated point of view expressed by the hon. Member. I do not agree that there have been slashing cuts in expenditure on roads in Wales. Indeed, the hon. Member's constituency will benefit hugely by the decision made by my right hon. and learned Friend to extend the M4 to Port Abraham. I would also wish to tell him, if I had the time and had had notice of the question, that the Welsh Office will invest in many more road schemes pointing to West Wales.

Will the Minister ask the Secretary of State when next he visits Carmarthen to study the state of the people to find out whether they are free and to find out whether the county of my forefathers is still the land of the free? When he confirms the massive reality that the people of Carmarthen are still free and that they did not fight in vain for their freedom, does he then expect the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Evans) to stop talking nonsense about a lack of freedom in Wales?

One thing I was not able to say to the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Evans) was that about 1,000 jobs in his constituency have been saved or created and that he has the perhaps enviable record of Welsh Members of Parliament that in his travel-to-work area of Carmarthen the rate of unemployment is the lowest in Wales.

As my right hon. and learned Friend travels along the road to Carmarthen, will he travel along the M4, which he has saved against all the odds, thus helping the people of Carmarthen, and will he tap the views of the people of Carmarthen as to their priorities on whether they prefer expenditure to be on road signs or on roads?

I would not wish the House to have the impression that money spent by the Welsh Office on roads entirely went to South Wales. I should like to point out to the hon. Members that some £150 million is soon to be earmarked for North Wales and the A55.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will consider financially assisting Swansea City Council in tackling the problem of corrosion in steel houses.

Welsh Office officials are in touch with the council on this matter. No specific request for financial assistance has been received, but my right hon. and learned Friend would, of course, be prepared to examine any application.

Does my hon. Friend accept that, because of its nature and scale, the problem of corrosion in Swansea merits special treatment beyond the normal allocation for repairs? If such an application were made, would he give a grant to Swansea over and above its normal repair allocation?

The work which Swansea proposes to undertake is classified as repair and as such is normally financed either from the housing revenue account or, if borrowing is resorted to, from its main block allocation. We are prepared to increase that allocation.

While my hon. Friend is thinking about housing costs, will he try to introduce a little more flexibility into the housing cost yardstick as applied to rural areas?

Order. The hon. Gentleman is widening the Question until it covers the whole of Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he will take to assist local authorities in Wales to increase mortgage advances.

The allocations to Welsh authorities for lending in 1977–78 meet all the requests for allocations which have been made to my right hon. and learned Friend. If any other authority wishes to have an increased allocation, we shall be prepared to consider an application.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Will he do his best to ensure that that fact is given the utmost publicity?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that at recent meetings that I have had with representatives of every housing authority in Wales I have drawn attention to this fact and, as a result of applications made to me, have been able to transfer moneys from the main block into this lending block.

The fact that the hon. Gentleman reduced and placed a moratorium on local authority lending last year has meant a far lower take-up of this mortgage facility than there would have been. Will he ensure that his Department will impose no further moratoriums on local authority mortgages by telephone?

One has to get this moratorium in perspective. The hon. Gentleman should be aware that it lasted exactly three weeks. In my view, a more likely reason for the low take-up was the high interest rates which prevailed during that period. I believe that the fact that interest rates have now fallen will be of some help, although I accept that local authority interest rates have not fallen as rapidly as building society rates.

Does my hon. Friend agree that, because of the Government's financial policies, the minimum lending rate has come down from 15 per cent. to 5 per cent., so that we can expect building society rates to come down again? Will he do his utmost to encourage building societies to play a greater part, and particularly to give advances for older property?

Yes, Sir. We have done this in consultation with building societies. Following negotiations with them, we were able to announce on 1st April this year that the building societies were making an additional £8½ million available this year to purchasers nominated by local authorities.

The Minister is clearly aware that the interest rates charged by local authorities are often substantially higher than those charged by the building societies and have not come down anything like as fast, due to the present structure of local government finance and the requirements imposed on it by the Government. Will he undertake that the Government will look urgently at this problem so that local authority interest rates bear some relation to those charged on the commercial market outside?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman appreciates that the local authorities' real interest rate at present reflects the cost of their pooled borrowings. But the housing policy Green Paper proposes legislation, which we hope the House will pass, to enable authorities to charge mortgage interest rates equal to building society rates.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the distribution of the rate support grant for 1977–78 for each county; and if he will indicate the gain or loss of resources to each county, as compared with 1976–77.

I am circulating the information in theOfficial Report.

Will the Minister confirm that there has been no reduction in the level of rate support grant resources being made available to the county of Clwyd, which covers part of my constituency and now has an unemployment rate of 12 per cent., the highest in Wales? Any reduction in rate support grant to this county would mean that the county was unable to undertake the short-term anti-unemployment measures now proposed.

The rate support grant settlement has been looked at in totality for the coming year. We have examined its three elements. Under the domestic element, we have retained the differential of 36p in the pound in Wales as opposed to the 18½p in England. Without that, average domestic rate bills in Wales would have increased by 31 per cent. The resources element is of the same order. But there has been some marginal relative worsening in the needs element, though not in the actual cost, because all councils in Wales have increased the total even in the needs element.

On the basis of this settlement, can my hon. Friend give an estimate of the average rate increase for Welsh ratepayers in the next year?

On the basis of the settlement itself, it is not expected that rates in Wales or England need rise by more than single figures. But it is not only the settlement that will affect the level of individual rate bills. The level of those bills will be affected by policy decisions taken by the local authorities, by the amounts of expenditure they will undertake and also by the extent to which they are prepared to draw on their balances.

Is the Minister aware of fears expressed in some quarters that the Government's natural concern about the problems of the great metropolitan areas may induce them to overlook some of the peculiar difficulties of the widespread rural areas such as parts of Wales? Will he always keep this very much in mind?

Yes, I certainly have such factors in mind. The rate support grant settlement is based on criteria by which we have attempted to discover those areas in England and Wales in the greatest need. All Members will appreciate that the regression analysis formula used may not be perfect, but it is an attempt to discover areas of genuine need and ensure that the rate support grant settlement meets those needs.

I appreciate the problems of the inner cities, but is it not a consequence of the Government's policy over last year and this that both Welsh local government, through the rate support grant, and regional policy have been impoverished? Is the Minister satisfied with the system of regression analysis? Can it be right that the industrial areas of South Wales and the rural areas of Wales, with their problems of declining population and unemployment, may lose resources to the inner centres and that their needs are less than those of the metropolitan areas?

As I said earlier, one has to look at the totality of the matter and not concentrate on one aspect of it. At the end of the day, the settlement is designed to achieve a relative degree of stability in the coming year as opposed to this year. If the hon. Gentleman takes into account the fact that the total Exchequer support for local authority expenditure in Wales is about 75 per cent. whilst in England it is 61 per cent., I think that he will agree that we have made a reasonable and fair settlement.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether any decision has been made on the allocation of additional careers service officers' posts to assist in the implementation of new Manpower Services Commission measures for dealing with young unemployed people.

Not yet, but I expect allocations to be made very soon.

Does my hon. Friend recall that on a previous allocation of this kind no one was appointed within the county of Powys to undertake this work? Will he ensure that on this occasion special attention is paid to Powys with its special problems? Scarcity of population is a factor, as well as overall numbers of population.

I recollect the fight that my hon. Friend put up last time, and I assure him that very sympathetic consideration will be given to the needs of Powys. I should be disappointed if Powys did not get one additional post.

Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that the new arrangement that is about to start, with an office in Wrexham and an office in Cardiff, will not fall between two stools? It does not give overall strategic control of the existing centre, but it is not sufficiently local to know the details of local schemes put forward. Will the hon. Gentleman look again at the proposed structure?

I do not think that there is likely to be a change in the structure. Extensive consultation took place. The areas must be large enough to sustain a full range of facilities. On the basis of the information that we have been given, there is every prospect of success.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has to make the M4 more accessible to Cardiff.

Proposals for a link between the motorway at Capel Lanilltern and the western side of Cardiff are now in the public participation stage and the statutory procedures will be completed as soon as possible.

Can the hon. Gentleman give any example, from his experience of motorways in the United Kingdom, of any town or city comparable in size to the capital city of Wales that has the inferior proposals for access that Cardiff has? Will he do all he can to expedite the Capel Llanilltern interchange? Without it, the whole of the north of Cardiff will become congested and Cardiff will not be able to take the maximum economic advantage of its closeness to the M4.

Certainly we shall make every attempt to speed up matters, but the interchanges are provided where they are needed and not on a rationed basis. We in the Department would argue that sufficient provision has been made. As for proposals for an interchange at, say, Thornhill, I have to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is sure that the residents of the Thornhill area would welcome it.

Will my hon. Friend tell the House in due course what proposals he has to make Cardiff more accessible to North Wales?

I had better say that I welcome that question and that the Welsh Office is determined that communications between North and South Wales by road and rail shall proceed apace. There is no doubt in my mind that before very long we shall make an announcement in this direction.

When the Minister says that Cardiff is adequately supplied in this way, will he bear in mind that Newport, with a population of about 105,000, has several interchanges of this kind but Cardiff, with a population of twice as many—nearly 300,000—is reduced to one real interchange and one at St. Mellons, which is some distance away? Does not this on the face of it appear somewhat inconsistent?

It is not inconsistent. I have no objection to other interchanges being built but would stipulate that there should be adequate connections to take the traffic.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give the expenditure by central and local government on road maintenance in each of the last two years and planned in the current year, expressed at constant prices.

I will circulate the figures in theOfficial Report.

Does the Minister agree that the cut-back which has occurred in road maintenance has been extremely short-sighted, that it will lead to massively increased bills in the future, that it endangers road safety and that it has led county authorities to have to spend very much more on insurance premiums?

In previous speeches, the hon. Gentleman has said that he wanted cuts in public expenditure. In reality, the situation has led to less money being made available, and the hon. Gentleman is arguing against himself. Notwithstanding that, to indicate that I do not take lightly some of the complaints that he and others have made, I want to inform him of the widespread conditions survey of about 3,000–4,000 sites in Wales which will enable us to have effective monitoring of the situation.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the financial position of the steel industry in Wales: and whether he is satisfied that the investment programme of the industry is making the expected contribution to economic progress in Wales.

My right hon. and learned Friend has had several representations on various aspects of the steel industry in Wales. As the hon. Member knows, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry is responsible for the steel industry. The British Steel Corporation's investment programme is one of the matters he is discussing with the Corporation and the TUC Steel Committee.

Is the Minister aware that the West Wales Steel Development Committee is holding a crisis meeting today to consider the huge losses of BSC, the collapse of its investment strategy and the real possibility that the Port Talbot development will not go ahead? What action will the Government take to deal with this financial crisis and the potentially serious consequences for the Welsh economy?

I have already indicated that this matter is principally one for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry, but the investment to which the hon. Gentleman refers particularly is a matter for the Corporation within the financial limits and the strategic framework agreed with the Government. I very much hope that the obstacles to a start on further investment can be overcome, but the situation is inevitably affected by market prospects.

Does my hon. Friend accept that the elation in West Glamorgan when we had the announcement last February of the massive investment at Port Talbot is now being replaced by increasing worry that there will be an indefinite postponement? Does he accept the case that the Port Talbot investment rests mainly on the long-term future of British Steel as a whole and that it should not be held up because of short-term financial difficulties?

I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House are concerned about the deterioration of the financial position of the British Steel Corporation, and it is this matter which now is the subject of urgent Government attention.

Is the Minister aware that, in a situation in which world demand for steel is contracting, the case for maintaining in production small and efficient producers is stronger than it ever was?

Yes, Sir. There has been a suggestion that the Corporation might increase its investment in its small works. That, principally, is a matter for the Corporation in putting forward investment proposals which it believes to be sound. I welcome the hon. Gentleman's conversion to the interests of Shotton.

Will the Minister ensure that the Government will resist in Wales any proposals for voluntary redundancies introduced by the Corporation, since alternative jobs have not been made available in steel-making areas such as Ebbw Vale and are not forthcoming in the other steel-making areas of Clwyd and South Glamorgan?

I think everyone agrees that we need an efficient, high-productivity steel industry, and any question of de-manning is a matter for negotiation between the Corporation and the trade unions concerned.

rose—

Order. There are other Questions down about steel later on.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will outline his plans for further industrial development in Wales.

We expect the encouraging signs for the future of the United Kingdom economy to be reflected in the pace of industrial development in Wales. My right hon. and learned Friend will use to the full his powers to provide selective assistance under the Industry Act and, through the relevant agencies and other means, to further economic development and investment in Wales.

I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. Will he confirm that the number of inquiries about industrial sites and factories in Wales is substantially on the increase? While I fully understand the absence of my right hon. and learned Friend from the Front Bench now, will my hon. Friend say on his behalf whether he felt that his visit to the Far East was a success and whether there is any substantial hope of further overseas investment in industry in Wales?

I have discussed my right hon. and learned Friend's visit to Japan with him. He expressed the view that the organisations to which he spoke in Japan were interested in the United Kingdom, and particularly in Wales. Inquiries this year show an increase of 10 per cent. as against the comparable period last year, and visits, which are possibly a greater sign of interest, are up by some 20 per cent.

But does not the Minister agree that the fall of more than six points in last quarter's industrial production index was quite appalling, and does he further agree that what needs to be done in Wales is to improve the prospects for small businesses on which we are particularly dependent for employment?

We agree that small industries are very important for us in Wales, and that is why we believe that the concessions announced in the Chancellor's mini-Budget will be of help to us in Wales. That is why we believe that the extension of the small firms employment subsidy will be important to us in Wales and why we welcome the Welsh Development Agency's intention to concentrate a large share of its new advance factory building programme on building smaller factories.

Is the Minister aware that it is the lack of a balanced industrial and economic development in Wales that has led to a critical employment problem over much of the last two generations? Is he further aware that if Wales had had her own Government during that time—that is, if Wales had national freedom, of which we have not a jot today—the situation in Wales would be comparable perhaps with that in Norway, Sweden, Austria, Luxembourg or other small countries where unemployment is negligible compared with our own?

May I answer the hon. Gentleman by asking him this question? Is he aware that much of the investment which we need for Wales will have to come from outside Wales, including from parts of England? He would do more good for the people of Wales if, instead of attacking those who come in, he made some contribution to the efforts they are making. I remind the hon. Gentleman that I have heard him in this House attack the Government's policy of dispersing jobs to Wales.