asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many additional civil servants, and what associated annual budgeted expenditure, came under his control following the transfer of responsibilities for employment to the Welsh Office.

I have taken over responsibility for the activities of the Manpower Services Commission and the careers service in Wales. This involves 17 posts within the Welsh Office. Estimates for Welsh Office expenditure on the above services in Wales will be presented to Parliament in due course.

Will the Secretary of State accept our best wishes for his tenure of responsibility over at least parts of employment in Wales and our hope that he may be more successful than previous regimes in London at overcoming the problems? Will he give an assurance that he will take a quantified approach, trying to identify how many jobs are needed in each part of Wales and using his employment brief, his industry brief and his responsibility for the Welsh Development Agency together? Further, will he consider bringing forward an economic plan for Wales aimed at overcoming the unemployment problems there?

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Wigley) for his kind remarks, although I do not perhaps agree with him in respect of his advocacy of an economic plan. At the meeting that I had with the Manpower Services Commission on 11th November, I said, following the tenor of the speech I made when I opened the jobcentre in Port Talbot in July, that I wanted an approach to be made, bringing together the various strands of responsibility that I hold, on a travel-to-work basis. It is my hope—and the Manpower Services Commission has agreed—to start with two pilot areas in North Wales in order to look at the industrial needs and at the employment and training needs. We shall seek to marry them, which I have the unique opportunity of doing because so many of these responsibilities are under one roof.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the problems of unemployment in Wales cannot be separated from the unemployment problems in the rest of Britain, and that if we are to solve them we must solve them in the whole of Britain? Does he agree also that there should be no further transfer of functions to the Welsh Office until we can obtain the decision of the people of Wales on their attitude to the Welsh Assembly?

I think that my hon. Friend is mistaken, in the sense that we are not devolving. We are decentralising certain functions, including economic functions, which we believe that it is essential to leave in the Welsh Office as part of the central approach of the United Kingdom Government. There is an opportunity here to bring together industry, which has worked so well since decentralisation—we have had substantial gains from this in Wales—my responsibility for manpower services and, in due course, further and higher education as well. I believe that here we have a unique opportunity of tackling, area by area, the problems of Wales.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that, according to a Written Answer given on Friday last, beween 1st March 1974 and 1st July 1977 the staff of the Welsh Office increased from 1,093 to 1,541, which is an increase of 41 per cent., compared with the general increase in the Civil Service of 6·1 per cent.? Can he assure the House that this increase is entirely accounted for by the increase in functions on the part of the Welsh Office?

One would have thought that the hon. Member would have welcomed the increase, since it is due to the transfer of functions. The Health Service transfer came, I believe, on 1st April 1974, industry came in July 1976, and there has been the transfer of a host of other, minor functions. Generally, the drive in the Welsh Office has been to economise on the number of civil servants in exactly the same way as in the central Departments of Whitehall. What we have done is to decentralise new functions on to the shoulders of the Welsh Office. I should have thought that there would have been a word of welcome for that from the hon. Member.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he next intends to visit Rhyl.

My right hon. and learned Friend has no immediate plans to do so.

I see from today's Order Paper that the Minister's right hon. and learned Friend has a good deal of travelling to do over the next period. When the Secretary of State comes to the Rhyl area, will he be surprised to find a place in which one in five is out of a job and a great many shops are empty, and a place which has now been hit by the consequences of severe flooding also affecting nearby Prestatyn? Is the Minister aware also of the feeling that his Department has rather lost interest in what happens in the area? We are excluded from the Welsh development area, and we have had no jobs under the dispersal of Government jobs scheme. Will the hon. Gentleman therefore encourage his right hon. and learned Friend to come, and to set party politics aside and listen to our grievances?

Where the future and job prospects of any area in Wales are concerned, there are no politics whatsoever. I refute entirely the hon. Member's accusation that the Welsh Office has neglected that part of Wales. I appreciate the many problems that the hon. Member and his community face. I have heard of the problems from him many times in the House. But let me tell him that special measures have so far created or saved just over 1,100 jobs in his constituency and that perhaps some 400 new manufacturing jobs are expected in the area from projects going ahead with the aid of selective financial assistance. The hon. Gentleman may know that the Welsh Development Agency is making direct investment in Western Electric Limited. Finally, with regard to development area status, the Welsh Office is well aware of the case made by the Clwyd County Council, but in the end the matter is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the extent of capital underspending on sewerage schemes in Wales in the year ended 31st March 1977; and if he will make a statement.

District councils, as agents for the Welsh National Water Development Authority, spent £2·8 million out of an allocation of £7 8 million. Reasons for the shortfall are given in paragraph 8·4 of the Authority's annual report.

Is the Minister aware that that shortfall amounts to 73 per cent. of the expected capital spending on sewerage? Is he further aware that there was a shortfall on the water supply schemes of 32 per cent. and an overall shortfall in WNWDA spending of 34 per cent.? Does he not think that this resulted in excessive borrowing on the part of the Authority and that it calls for an inquiry similar to the inquiry that he instigated on the shortfall in housing spending, which, we understand, is again this year running at about £15 million?

Some of the reasons for the shortfall in this industry are spelt out in some detail in the report to which I have referred. I am very concerned if under-investment occurs, and officials in the Welsh Office are already having discussions about remedying the situation, but some of the problems associated with the shortfall in spending on water and sewerage services are a consequence of the types of organisation set up by the Opposition.

Is the Minister aware that in the village of Deiniolen in my constituency people have been waiting for five years for sewerage plants to be installed and that after a five-year wait, when money was given as the reason for not going forward, the programme has finally been abandoned because there is not sufficient finance? Does not the Minister regard this as totally unsatisfactory? Can the Welsh Office become more involved to ensure that such a situation does not happen again?

Individual schemes are a matter for the authorities themselves to decide. If the hon. Gentleman will write to me or come to see me on this case, I shall make further inquiries into it.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he plans to visit Carmarthen.

My right hon. and learned Friend has no immediate plans to do so officially.

When the Secretary of State does visit Carmarthen, will the hon. Gentleman ask him to call at County Hall, where he will learn that the slashing cuts in expenditure on roads, together with the £1 million and more interest which the people of Carmarthen, Cardigan and Llanelli, as well as Pembroke, have to pay on the cost of the Cleddau Bridge, will mean that, if this is persisted in, the principal roads in the county of Dyfed will be resurfaced once every 50 years, the non-principal roads once every 86 years and the thousands of miles of non-classified roads once every 289 years? Does he not consider that this will lead to an appalling situation on the roads which will mean no further or little further development in industry or in modern farming, which employs bulk tankers?

I must disagree with the rather alarmist and exaggerated point of view expressed by the hon. Member. I do not agree that there have been slashing cuts in expenditure on roads in Wales. Indeed, the hon. Member's constituency will benefit hugely by the decision made by my right hon. and learned Friend to extend the M4 to Port Abraham. I would also wish to tell him, if I had the time and had had notice of the question, that the Welsh Office will invest in many more road schemes pointing to West Wales.

Will the Minister ask the Secretary of State when next he visits Carmarthen to study the state of the people to find out whether they are free and to find out whether the county of my forefathers is still the land of the free? When he confirms the massive reality that the people of Carmarthen are still free and that they did not fight in vain for their freedom, does he then expect the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Evans) to stop talking nonsense about a lack of freedom in Wales?

One thing I was not able to say to the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Evans) was that about 1,000 jobs in his constituency have been saved or created and that he has the perhaps enviable record of Welsh Members of Parliament that in his travel-to-work area of Carmarthen the rate of unemployment is the lowest in Wales.

As my right hon. and learned Friend travels along the road to Carmarthen, will he travel along the M4, which he has saved against all the odds, thus helping the people of Carmarthen, and will he tap the views of the people of Carmarthen as to their priorities on whether they prefer expenditure to be on road signs or on roads?

I would not wish the House to have the impression that money spent by the Welsh Office on roads entirely went to South Wales. I should like to point out to the hon. Members that some £150 million is soon to be earmarked for North Wales and the A55.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will consider financially assisting Swansea City Council in tackling the problem of corrosion in steel houses.

Welsh Office officials are in touch with the council on this matter. No specific request for financial assistance has been received, but my right hon. and learned Friend would, of course, be prepared to examine any application.

Does my hon. Friend accept that, because of its nature and scale, the problem of corrosion in Swansea merits special treatment beyond the normal allocation for repairs? If such an application were made, would he give a grant to Swansea over and above its normal repair allocation?

The work which Swansea proposes to undertake is classified as repair and as such is normally financed either from the housing revenue account or, if borrowing is resorted to, from its main block allocation. We are prepared to increase that allocation.

While my hon. Friend is thinking about housing costs, will he try to introduce a little more flexibility into the housing cost yardstick as applied to rural areas?

Order. The hon. Gentleman is widening the Question until it covers the whole of Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he will take to assist local authorities in Wales to increase mortgage advances.

The allocations to Welsh authorities for lending in 1977–78 meet all the requests for allocations which have been made to my right hon. and learned Friend. If any other authority wishes to have an increased allocation, we shall be prepared to consider an application.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Will he do his best to ensure that that fact is given the utmost publicity?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that at recent meetings that I have had with representatives of every housing authority in Wales I have drawn attention to this fact and, as a result of applications made to me, have been able to transfer moneys from the main block into this lending block.

The fact that the hon. Gentleman reduced and placed a moratorium on local authority lending last year has meant a far lower take-up of this mortgage facility than there would have been. Will he ensure that his Department will impose no further moratoriums on local authority mortgages by telephone?

One has to get this moratorium in perspective. The hon. Gentleman should be aware that it lasted exactly three weeks. In my view, a more likely reason for the low take-up was the high interest rates which prevailed during that period. I believe that the fact that interest rates have now fallen will be of some help, although I accept that local authority interest rates have not fallen as rapidly as building society rates.

Does my hon. Friend agree that, because of the Government's financial policies, the minimum lending rate has come down from 15 per cent. to 5 per cent., so that we can expect building society rates to come down again? Will he do his utmost to encourage building societies to play a greater part, and particularly to give advances for older property?

Yes, Sir. We have done this in consultation with building societies. Following negotiations with them, we were able to announce on 1st April this year that the building societies were making an additional £8½ million available this year to purchasers nominated by local authorities.

The Minister is clearly aware that the interest rates charged by local authorities are often substantially higher than those charged by the building societies and have not come down anything like as fast, due to the present structure of local government finance and the requirements imposed on it by the Government. Will he undertake that the Government will look urgently at this problem so that local authority interest rates bear some relation to those charged on the commercial market outside?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman appreciates that the local authorities' real interest rate at present reflects the cost of their pooled borrowings. But the housing policy Green Paper proposes legislation, which we hope the House will pass, to enable authorities to charge mortgage interest rates equal to building society rates.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the distribution of the rate support grant for 1977–78 for each county; and if he will indicate the gain or loss of resources to each county, as compared with 1976–77.

I am circulating the information in theOfficial Report.

Will the Minister confirm that there has been no reduction in the level of rate support grant resources being made available to the county of Clwyd, which covers part of my constituency and now has an unemployment rate of 12 per cent., the highest in Wales? Any reduction in rate support grant to this county would mean that the county was unable to undertake the short-term anti-unemployment measures now proposed.

The rate support grant settlement has been looked at in totality for the coming year. We have examined its three elements. Under the domestic element, we have retained the differential of 36p in the pound in Wales as opposed to the 18½p in England. Without that, average domestic rate bills in Wales would have increased by 31 per cent. The resources element is of the same order. But there has been some marginal relative worsening in the needs element, though not in the actual cost, because all councils in Wales have increased the total even in the needs element.

On the basis of this settlement, can my hon. Friend give an estimate of the average rate increase for Welsh ratepayers in the next year?

On the basis of the settlement itself, it is not expected that rates in Wales or England need rise by more than single figures. But it is not only the settlement that will affect the level of individual rate bills. The level of those bills will be affected by policy decisions taken by the local authorities, by the amounts of expenditure they will undertake and also by the extent to which they are prepared to draw on their balances.

Is the Minister aware of fears expressed in some quarters that the Government's natural concern about the problems of the great metropolitan areas may induce them to overlook some of the peculiar difficulties of the widespread rural areas such as parts of Wales? Will he always keep this very much in mind?

Yes, I certainly have such factors in mind. The rate support grant settlement is based on criteria by which we have attempted to discover those areas in England and Wales in the greatest need. All Members will appreciate that the regression analysis formula used may not be perfect, but it is an attempt to discover areas of genuine need and ensure that the rate support grant settlement meets those needs.

I appreciate the problems of the inner cities, but is it not a consequence of the Government's policy over last year and this that both Welsh local government, through the rate support grant, and regional policy have been impoverished? Is the Minister satisfied with the system of regression analysis? Can it be right that the industrial areas of South Wales and the rural areas of Wales, with their problems of declining population and unemployment, may lose resources to the inner centres and that their needs are less than those of the metropolitan areas?

As I said earlier, one has to look at the totality of the matter and not concentrate on one aspect of it. At the end of the day, the settlement is designed to achieve a relative degree of stability in the coming year as opposed to this year. If the hon. Gentleman takes into account the fact that the total Exchequer support for local authority expenditure in Wales is about 75 per cent. whilst in England it is 61 per cent., I think that he will agree that we have made a reasonable and fair settlement.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether any decision has been made on the allocation of additional careers service officers' posts to assist in the implementation of new Manpower Services Commission measures for dealing with young unemployed people.

Not yet, but I expect allocations to be made very soon.

Does my hon. Friend recall that on a previous allocation of this kind no one was appointed within the county of Powys to undertake this work? Will he ensure that on this occasion special attention is paid to Powys with its special problems? Scarcity of population is a factor, as well as overall numbers of population.

I recollect the fight that my hon. Friend put up last time, and I assure him that very sympathetic consideration will be given to the needs of Powys. I should be disappointed if Powys did not get one additional post.

Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that the new arrangement that is about to start, with an office in Wrexham and an office in Cardiff, will not fall between two stools? It does not give overall strategic control of the existing centre, but it is not sufficiently local to know the details of local schemes put forward. Will the hon. Gentleman look again at the proposed structure?

I do not think that there is likely to be a change in the structure. Extensive consultation took place. The areas must be large enough to sustain a full range of facilities. On the basis of the information that we have been given, there is every prospect of success.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has to make the M4 more accessible to Cardiff.

Proposals for a link between the motorway at Capel Lanilltern and the western side of Cardiff are now in the public participation stage and the statutory procedures will be completed as soon as possible.

Can the hon. Gentleman give any example, from his experience of motorways in the United Kingdom, of any town or city comparable in size to the capital city of Wales that has the inferior proposals for access that Cardiff has? Will he do all he can to expedite the Capel Llanilltern interchange? Without it, the whole of the north of Cardiff will become congested and Cardiff will not be able to take the maximum economic advantage of its closeness to the M4.

Certainly we shall make every attempt to speed up matters, but the interchanges are provided where they are needed and not on a rationed basis. We in the Department would argue that sufficient provision has been made. As for proposals for an interchange at, say, Thornhill, I have to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is sure that the residents of the Thornhill area would welcome it.

Will my hon. Friend tell the House in due course what proposals he has to make Cardiff more accessible to North Wales?

I had better say that I welcome that question and that the Welsh Office is determined that communications between North and South Wales by road and rail shall proceed apace. There is no doubt in my mind that before very long we shall make an announcement in this direction.

When the Minister says that Cardiff is adequately supplied in this way, will he bear in mind that Newport, with a population of about 105,000, has several interchanges of this kind but Cardiff, with a population of twice as many—nearly 300,000—is reduced to one real interchange and one at St. Mellons, which is some distance away? Does not this on the face of it appear somewhat inconsistent?

It is not inconsistent. I have no objection to other interchanges being built but would stipulate that there should be adequate connections to take the traffic.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give the expenditure by central and local government on road maintenance in each of the last two years and planned in the current year, expressed at constant prices.

I will circulate the figures in theOfficial Report.

Does the Minister agree that the cut-back which has occurred in road maintenance has been extremely short-sighted, that it will lead to massively increased bills in the future, that it endangers road safety and that it has led county authorities to have to spend very much more on insurance premiums?

In previous speeches, the hon. Gentleman has said that he wanted cuts in public expenditure. In reality, the situation has led to less money being made available, and the hon. Gentleman is arguing against himself. Notwithstanding that, to indicate that I do not take lightly some of the complaints that he and others have made, I want to inform him of the widespread conditions survey of about 3,000–4,000 sites in Wales which will enable us to have effective monitoring of the situation.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the financial position of the steel industry in Wales: and whether he is satisfied that the investment programme of the industry is making the expected contribution to economic progress in Wales.

My right hon. and learned Friend has had several representations on various aspects of the steel industry in Wales. As the hon. Member knows, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry is responsible for the steel industry. The British Steel Corporation's investment programme is one of the matters he is discussing with the Corporation and the TUC Steel Committee.

Is the Minister aware that the West Wales Steel Development Committee is holding a crisis meeting today to consider the huge losses of BSC, the collapse of its investment strategy and the real possibility that the Port Talbot development will not go ahead? What action will the Government take to deal with this financial crisis and the potentially serious consequences for the Welsh economy?

I have already indicated that this matter is principally one for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry, but the investment to which the hon. Gentleman refers particularly is a matter for the Corporation within the financial limits and the strategic framework agreed with the Government. I very much hope that the obstacles to a start on further investment can be overcome, but the situation is inevitably affected by market prospects.

Does my hon. Friend accept that the elation in West Glamorgan when we had the announcement last February of the massive investment at Port Talbot is now being replaced by increasing worry that there will be an indefinite postponement? Does he accept the case that the Port Talbot investment rests mainly on the long-term future of British Steel as a whole and that it should not be held up because of short-term financial difficulties?

I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House are concerned about the deterioration of the financial position of the British Steel Corporation, and it is this matter which now is the subject of urgent Government attention.

Is the Minister aware that, in a situation in which world demand for steel is contracting, the case for maintaining in production small and efficient producers is stronger than it ever was?

Yes, Sir. There has been a suggestion that the Corporation might increase its investment in its small works. That, principally, is a matter for the Corporation in putting forward investment proposals which it believes to be sound. I welcome the hon. Gentleman's conversion to the interests of Shotton.

Will the Minister ensure that the Government will resist in Wales any proposals for voluntary redundancies introduced by the Corporation, since alternative jobs have not been made available in steel-making areas such as Ebbw Vale and are not forthcoming in the other steel-making areas of Clwyd and South Glamorgan?

I think everyone agrees that we need an efficient, high-productivity steel industry, and any question of de-manning is a matter for negotiation between the Corporation and the trade unions concerned.

rose—

Order. There are other Questions down about steel later on.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will outline his plans for further industrial development in Wales.

We expect the encouraging signs for the future of the United Kingdom economy to be reflected in the pace of industrial development in Wales. My right hon. and learned Friend will use to the full his powers to provide selective assistance under the Industry Act and, through the relevant agencies and other means, to further economic development and investment in Wales.

I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. Will he confirm that the number of inquiries about industrial sites and factories in Wales is substantially on the increase? While I fully understand the absence of my right hon. and learned Friend from the Front Bench now, will my hon. Friend say on his behalf whether he felt that his visit to the Far East was a success and whether there is any substantial hope of further overseas investment in industry in Wales?

I have discussed my right hon. and learned Friend's visit to Japan with him. He expressed the view that the organisations to which he spoke in Japan were interested in the United Kingdom, and particularly in Wales. Inquiries this year show an increase of 10 per cent. as against the comparable period last year, and visits, which are possibly a greater sign of interest, are up by some 20 per cent.

But does not the Minister agree that the fall of more than six points in last quarter's industrial production index was quite appalling, and does he further agree that what needs to be done in Wales is to improve the prospects for small businesses on which we are particularly dependent for employment?

We agree that small industries are very important for us in Wales, and that is why we believe that the concessions announced in the Chancellor's mini-Budget will be of help to us in Wales. That is why we believe that the extension of the small firms employment subsidy will be important to us in Wales and why we welcome the Welsh Development Agency's intention to concentrate a large share of its new advance factory building programme on building smaller factories.

Is the Minister aware that it is the lack of a balanced industrial and economic development in Wales that has led to a critical employment problem over much of the last two generations? Is he further aware that if Wales had had her own Government during that time—that is, if Wales had national freedom, of which we have not a jot today—the situation in Wales would be comparable perhaps with that in Norway, Sweden, Austria, Luxembourg or other small countries where unemployment is negligible compared with our own?

May I answer the hon. Gentleman by asking him this question? Is he aware that much of the investment which we need for Wales will have to come from outside Wales, including from parts of England? He would do more good for the people of Wales if, instead of attacking those who come in, he made some contribution to the efforts they are making. I remind the hon. Gentleman that I have heard him in this House attack the Government's policy of dispersing jobs to Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry whether he will order a review of the implementation of the Ryder plan for British Leyland and of the Government agreement with Chrysler.

British Leyland is preparing a corporate plan, on the basis of which the NEB will report to my right hon. Friend on future strategy for the company. The implementation of the agreement with Chrysler is kept under review by the monitoring arrangements my Department has with the company.

Does the Minister accept that there is widespread concern among the general public, which is contributing by taxation to these companies, and among all those who work there that the original plans have now been overtaken by events? May we have an assurance that these revisions and reviews will be put to the House for discussion as a basis for further voting of public funds?

I should have thought that the best thing to do would be to let the new chairman, who has been in the job for only three weeks, get on with the job. I assure the hon. Member, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said, that the House will be kept informed of developments. I remind the hon. Gentleman that, as has been said before, the Ryder plan was a strategy; it was not a blueprint.

Following what the Minister has said about letting the new chairman of the company get on with the job, will the Minister assure the House that, whatever the TUC may decide about the 12-month rule on Wednesday, the Government will back the management in what it thinks is the appropriate reform of bargaining within the company?

I am sure the hon. Gentleman realises that the Government are still considering this matter and that obviously they will take into consideration what the TUC says.

Will my hon. Friend tell the House what would have been the increase in unemployment in the motor car industry and in the motor car components industry if the measures which the Government have taken had not been taken? If, for example, we had accepted the policies of the Conservative Party and not implemented these proposals, is it not a fact that unemployment would have been considerably higher?

When the original rescue of the Leyland concern was proposed by the Government, it was noted that Leyland, indirectly and directly up and down the country, was probably responsible for about 1 million jobs. When Conservative Members criticise Leyland, I wish they would take that fact into account.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry if he will make a further statement on progress towards planning agreements.

I have repeatedly expressed my disappointment at the rate of progress being made in the implementation of planning agreement policy, which was announced early in the passage of the Industry Bill 1975 as being voluntary. The Government remain firmly committed to the concept of planning agreements.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer, but will he confirm that all the Ministers in his Department are in favour of planning agreements? Would he care to venture an opinion as to whether it is worth Back Benchers coming to this House repeatedly for Department of Industry Questions and seeking to get different answers from the one he has given today, since we are looking for something more positive?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. I can assure him that all the Ministers in the Department of Industry and the Government are in support of planning agreements. This has been Government policy. It was laid down in the election manifesto on which we were elected, and we have consistently maintained that planning agreements are important. I entirely accept that the progress so far has been extremely disappointing. In view of the massive amounts of aid to industry which this Government have been giving, both in grants and in tax concessions, it seems that industry could develop a more helpful and co-operative attitude towards planning agreements.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what major new uses of computer technology are being planned by his Department for the use of Her Majesty's Government.

Plans are at present at various stages of development for the use of computers by the Inland Revenue for the assessment of PAYE, the collection of both PAYE and Schedule D taxes, and the assessment and collection of corporation taxes; by the Department of Health and Social Security in local offices to assist in the payment of short-term national insurance and supplementary benefits; by the Land Registry to extend its present computer system; and by the Employment Services Agency to extend its vacancy matching system. Several other Departments are planning to introduce a number of smaller systems for a wide variety of tasks making use where appropriate of recent developments in the technology.

While thanking the Minister for that remarkably full answer, may I ask him whether he has noticed that there seems to be a crusade against computers in many areas of the Civil Service? Will he try to get a move on with the introduction of computer services on a wider scale, and will he consult his colleagues in the Department of Industry to discover why that Department is so dilatory in promoting the development of computers which the Government could use?

I certainly do not accept that my ministerial colleagues in the Department of Industry are unmindful of the problems facing the computer industry in this country. I do not accept that the Civil Service or any individual civil servant is campaigning against the computer industry.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that a major revolution is going on in computer technology and that it is perfectly possible to make the prime consideration the quality of service provided to the public? Will he, therefore, make sure that there is the greatest possible access to and speed of response in the social services and the Inland Revenue to any approach that the public have to make to Government Departments?

I shall certainly consider that point.

Can the Minister explain the delay in developing computer technology whereby the Schedule D assessments have not yet come to Cumbernauld new town?

That is a question for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what is the total number of Special Advisers to Ministers; and how many of those Special Advisers have been positively vetted for security purposes.

There are currently 28 Special Advisers to Ministers and they have all been or, in the case of the most recent appointments, are in the process of being positively vetted.

Can the Minister tell the House why the number of Special Advisers has increased by three since 28th February this year? Is it because the Ministers have got worse and need more advice, or is it because the Special Advisers have become less good and we need more of them?

The hon. Gentleman's figures are wrong. In fact, there have been four new appointments and one resignation since the last list was published on 21st February.

Has it occurred to my hon. Friend that many hon. Members are willing, at no extra expense, to give ample advice to Ministers at any hour of the day or night if they are in need thereof? Why do we have all these extra Special Advisers, who could easily be replaced by Members of this House?

I assure my hon. Friend that I recognise and welcome the advice which he gives me so frequently.

May I ask my hon. Friend whether he will ask Ministers who have Special Advisers to review the advice that they have been receiving in view of the reports last week by Mr. Frank Field, who claimed that only one-third of the Cabinet were politically motivated anyway?

I certainly do not accept Mr. Field's views in that regard.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he next expects to meet representatives of the trade unions in the Civil Service.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on the future of the Pay Research Unit.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he proposes to reinstitute the pay research system for determining Civil Service salaries.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what recent discussions he has had with the Civil Service unions.

I met representatives of the Civil Service National Whitley Council with my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Lord Privy Seal on Thursday 17th November, and I am pleased to announce that agreement has been reached between the Government and the National Staff Side for the immediate reactivation of the Civil Service Pay Research Unit to provide evidence for the settlement from 1st April 1979, subject, as in the past, to the provisions of any national pay policy.

I thank my hon. Friend for that comprehensive reply, but why are the Government refusing to restore normal collective bargaining to the Civil Service trade unions in time for the next wage settlement in April 1978 and making them wait until April 1979? Why is there this discrimination against the thousands of workers who make up the backbone of the Civil Service, while at the other end of the income scale there are people such as retired admirals and retired judges breaking the pay policy with pension increases, given this week, of more than 17 per cent., which in some cases amount to an increase of as much as £40 per week?

While I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the points he has made, I do not accept that the Government are discriminating in terms of pay against civil servants. Under the agreed timetable, a normal pay research exercise takes well over a year to complete, because it involves making detailed inquiries in a large number of separate firms. Taking that together with the time required to implement the improvement, we see our proposal of immediate reactivation, leading to a settlement in April 1979, as being reasonable. That is the first date by which a full survey is technically practicable.

Can my hon. Friend confirm that the staff side is entirely in agreement with the proposal that he has made? Will he also comment on the assertion that was made to me a week ago that some civil servants, as a result of the last two years of the pay policy, have lost one year's increase? Will he confirm or deny that?

The National Staff Side has understandable reservations about some of the features of the agreement that is now being entered into. The answer to my hon. Friend's second point, about whether civil servants have been discriminated against during phases 1 and 2 of the Government's pay policy, is that the very reverse is true. The criticism I usually receive is that this Government have been over-generous towards civil servants rather than the reverse.

Will my hon. Friend understand that many of us welcome the proposal for a Pay Research Unit Board, which shows a very rapid response by his Department to some of the recommendations of the Expenditure Committee just a few months ago? Will he explain further what he means by the reinstitution of the pay research system from April 1979? Does that mean that until then civil servants will have to rely for any pay increases upon the cash limits?

No, that is not the position. Civil servants will receive a pay increase, with an operative date of 1st April 1978, which will be in conformity with the Government's guidelines in respect of pay.

Are we to take it from his reply that the Minister does not accept what the unions say—that a limited but adequate investigation could take place between now and 1978, thereby giving a reasonable settlement to the unions? Beyond that, can the Minister indicate whether the Pay Research Unit will be given any powers to investigate the implications of the London weighting allowance in terms of job dispersal?

The London weighting is outside the normal ambit of the Pay Research Unit's activities. But the hon. Lady is absolutely right—the individual Civil Service unions have reservations about the issue of the operative date of 1st April 1978. The idea of a limited Pay Research Unit exercise on the 1st April 1978 basis is wholly impracticable because of the teechnical arguments to which I have referred.

Is the Minister aware that we welcome the agreement made between him, the Prime Minister and the National Staff Side and that we particularly welcome the introduction of an independent element into the board which will now be responsible for the Pay Research Unit?

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's comments and equally grateful for the co-operation shown by the National Staff Side of the Civil Service in this matter.

Will not the Government think again about updating the figures that the Pay Research Unit has in time for the 1978 settlement? Would not this give a much more orderly situation for next year rather than the shambles of a situation in which many different claims are put in with no bench-mark against which to set them?

I well appreciate that my hon. Friend has a great deal of experience of the Civil Service. But I would emphasise to him and to civil servants generally that the Government never discriminate against civil servants on the question of pay and will not discriminate against them.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will take steps to improve the labelling of bottles of wine sold by the Refreshment Department in order to describe more accurately their contents.

I have been asked to reply.

Is the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee aware that the bottle in question, for sale at £1·45, was labelled in large letters of gold "Fine Old Claret", that it was neither fine nor old and that I suspect it was not claret? Is he also aware that hon. Members on all sides of the House are extremely pleased that this kind of bottle has now been withdrawn from sale in the House?

That label was one that, as it were, got through the net. It was rejected on arrival and the wine has now been re-labelled. I am sure my hon. Friend will be greatly relieved that it does not claim to be finer or older than one can usually get for £1·45, but it is, I can assure him, a Bordeauxappellation contrôlée. Indeed, I have here a copy of theacquit vert, the certificate of origin, in case my hon. Friend would like to inspect it. The wine is generally thought to be good enough, because we certainly had some great competition in selecting it.

Will the hon. Gentleman give information about the content and quantity for the benefit of those of us who buy wine, either red or white, by the carafe? In spite of what theSunday Times says, I do not know very much about wines—I usually drink red and not white. It would be very helpful to hon. Members if we knew what we were buying and just what the quantity was in a carafe.

The carafe has hitherto been five-sixths of a bottle, but the EEC regulations have now somewhat changed that. A bottle is 70 centilitres. I believe that a carafe is 60 centilitres and a half-carafe 40 centilitres, which makes matters even more difficult, but I shall have this information printed on the wine lists

asked the Lord President of the Council what representations he has received regarding the abolition of the House of Lords.

I have been left in no doubt that such a step would enjoy considerable support.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is at this time in a Parliament's life that the House of Lords can be at its most dangerous, because its power to delay at the end of such a period is transformed into the ability to knock out any Bill it chooses, if the Government are getting towards the end of their period of office? Will my right hon. Friend therefore take full account of the massive majority at the Labour Party Conference and take no account of Lord Shinwell's remarks, especially when the noble Lord spent most of his time on the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill voting with the Tories?

My hon. Friend is correct in the facts he recited at the end of his supplementary question. Of course, the vote at the Labour Party Conference was one of the representations to which I referred in my original reply.

Has the right hon. Gentleman received or sought any views from the Liberal Party on the future of the House of Lords?

I have not actually discussed that matter with the Liberals, but I would imagine that some of them, at any rate, still hold to the old radical views that they held two or three decades ago.

Would not my right hon. Friend think it highly desirable for the House of Lords to destroy the Scotland Bill, because he could then kill two birds with one stone?

I hope that there will not be any other invocations from hon. Members in this House to invite the House of Lords to exercise its powers in that way. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heifer) referred to the matter the other day, but he did it in a highly jocular manner and people should understand that. Some people do not have as good a sense of humour as he has.

asked the Lord President of the Council what reforms of the parliamentary system he intends to introduce in order to improve parliamentary democracy.

I would suggest that the House should await the outcome of the major review being undertaken by the Select Committee on Procedure.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the biggest threats to parliamentary democracy is when a Member uses a party organisation to get himself a safe seat in this place and then betrays his party and his constituency by crossing the Floor of the House? In such circumstances, should not a Member be obliged to do the decent thing and resign his seat so that people in places such as Newham, North-East can be properly represented in this House?

It is a matter of personal taste, but I think that right hon. and hon. Members who cross the Floor should certainly consider all the suggestions my hon. Friend has made. Indeed, I understand that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Prentice) himself took that view some years ago when another hon. Member crossed the Floor in the opposite direction.

Does not the Lord President agree that one of the important aspects of increasing the effectiveness of parliamentary democracy is by EEC scrutiny and to get really efficient, effective and constructive scrutiny in the future, which is even more important if and when direct elections take place? Does he not agree that intelligent use of the Committee upstairs which examines EEC instruments would be an important part of that improvement?

I think it is one of the ways in which scrutiny can be operated, but we will be discussing the whole of that question next Monday on a motion to be moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) and we can examine all these matters more carefully then.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether he intends the separate referendums in Scotland and Wales, provided under the Scotland Bill and Wales Bill, respectively, to be undertaken on the same date.

Yes, that is our intention and the decisions which the House took last week should help us achieve it. But we shall need to keep the position under review in the light of progress on the two Bills.

Is not the Minister aware, in view of the representations made last year for two separate Bills—because of the essential difference between Wales and Scotland and, indeed, the provisions of the two Bills, in that Scotland will have a legislative assembly and Wales will not—that there is every argument now for having referendums on separate days so that the two issues are not confused?

The most important matter which will determine the final attitude on that is the progress of the Bills, and we must wait and see what happens.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many of us are striving hard to convince a sceptical electorate that the Government will not try to pull a fast one over the referendum? By such concessions and undertakings they are giving us many arguments to use.

My hon. Friend should listen to the answer which I gave: that that is our intention. If my hon. Friend repeatedly spreads false suggestions about the attitude of the Government, it is no wonder that some foolish people believe him.

asked the Lord President of the Council what proportion of the costs of the Press Gallery of the House are paid for by newspaper and broadcasting organisations and journalists now using the facilities.

No charge is made for the accommodation provided for the Press Gallery.

I thank my right hon. Friend.