asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has any further plans to help the elderly in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

We shall be reviewing the provisions of services for the elderly after studying the public response to the discussion document "A Happier Old Age". The needs of the elderly in Wales will be taken fully into account.

I am grateful for that reply. Does the Minister agree that the majority of elderly people in Wales prefer to live in their own environment and in their own hamlets or villages when they retire? Is the Minister aware that there is a shortage of houses in many Welsh hamlets and villages? Has he any plans to give financial aid to local authorities so that they can build more council houses in those areas?

Housing for the elderly is a matter for the local authorities rather than for central Government. That does not mean that the Department is insensitive to the problem. Two major projects in Dyfed were sanctioned as part of the 1977 construction industry package involving a total of £451,000, albeit in the southern part of Dyfed.

In view of the disparities between the various schemes for concessionary travel in the Principality, will my hon. Friend consider studying seriously the possibility of introducing a national scheme for concessionary bus travel?

That is a matter about which I could talk to the Secretary of State for Transport. All such suggestions should be directed initially towards the other Whitehall Departments. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Roderick) is deeply concerned about concessionary fares in Wales. They are funded through the rate support grant settlements and the transport support grant, which funds concessionary fares directly, and that is higher than it is in England.

Is not the most terrifying worry for old people the rise in prices, particularly fuel prices in the nationalised sector?

Government Departments have tried through special schemes to overcome that problem.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is one concrete way in which he can help the aged in Wales which will fall into line with the desires of Age Concern and many of the other organisations that work for pensioners—to establish a chair in geriatric medicine at the Welsh National School of Medicine?

I fully agree with my hon. Friend. Hon. Members may recall that the Secretary of State for Wales has offered to endow a chair in geriatrics at the Welsh National School of Medicine through a once for all cash payment. The establishment of such a chair would result in better training for doctors and would lead to greater awareness and understanding of old people in Wales.

We must move faster on the other Questions.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what organisations and institutions have responded to his consultative document on the management of higher education in the maintained sector in Wales published in August; and if he will now announce his decision on the proposed Welsh national body, and set out its terms of reference.

Comments on the consultative document have been received from 11 bodies. These comments are being taken fully into account in consideration of this matter, which is still proceeding.

Will the Under-Secretary of State say whether it is his Department's intention to introduce the necessary legislation this Session in order to set up the proposed Welsh national body to co-ordinate higher education? Will he re-examine the terms of reference of the proposed body to ensure that they include the expansion of Welsh medium teaching at post-school level?

The hon. Member might recollect that the remit of the consultative document included such a term of reference. I am sure that the legislation will emerge.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the original date for the opening of the district general hospital at Bodelwyddan; what is now the estimated date of opening; and what are the principal reasons for the delay.

When work first started in January 1972 no firm date was fixed for opening, but construction work was expected to be completed by the end of 1975, with the opening about a year later. Progress was seriously affected by a number of factors, including industrial disputes in the earlier years and structural problems. The whole hospital should now be ready for handing over to the area health authority by the end of next month. The estimated date for opening is January 1980.

Is it not a fact that this scheme, like other major building projects in Wales, has been delayed primarily by deliberate wrecking tactics by extremist elements in the trade union movement? Should not the Minister openly declare that the activities of such people are inconsistent with membership of the Labour Party?

Those were perhaps lurid headline statements. Although there were serious industrial problems in the early years—they were largely during the period of the Tory Government up to 1974, and we all know of the wrecking tactics then—the record during the past three years has been generally good. Everything possible is being done to get the hospital open as quickly as possible. Perhaps the hon. Member will consider, rather than rattling his sabre, that he should thank his lucky stars that he now has a 340-bed £10 million district general hospital in his constituency.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the effect on Wales of repair work on the Severn bridge; and whether he will make a statement.

My right hon. and learned Friend has received several representations about the current maintenance works on the Severn bridge. The House can be assured that I am watching the situation closely with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport, who is, of course, responsible for the bridge itself. It is estimated that the work will take about two months to complete. Thereafter the temporary lane restrictions will be removed. Nevertheless, I well understand the concern felt in South Wales.

I am glad that the Under-Secretary understands the concern and the anger over the almost intolerable delays that are being caused to traffic crossing the bridge. Why were the faults not discovered and dealt with during the period of closure last year? Why is the work not proceeding round the clock now? What is being done to ensure that a similar disastrous episode does not recur in the future?

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport might be a more appropriate recipient of the hon. Member's first question. My right hon. Friend and I greatly regret the inconvenience caused to the private motorist and to industry and commerce, especially at peak periods. A special effort is being made to speed up the work, and this includes overtime and shift working where appropriate. The work is at present on schedule and I hope that these delays will not be long with us.

The hon. Member asked about putting right the defective work. The main work in this respect is being carried out off-site in Newport. The hon. Member also asked about getting a speedy conclusion to this difficult problem. However, this sort of work requires highly skilled labour, and that is difficult to come by.

Has my hon. Friend considered the effect upon the bridge of heavy lorries? If, when the lanes are open, there is to be some restriction, would it not be better if private motorists were allowed to use the bridge and for some of the heavy traffic to be diverted to another route or perhaps on to the railways?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his suggestion. I can raise it with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what action he has taken following the adverse criticism made of the Clwyd area health authority by the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration in the case of Mrs. Hughes; and with what result.

On receipt of the Health Service Commissioner's report, I called for the then chairman of Clwyd health authority and told him of my serious concern. Since then the authority has given further guidance to junior doctors about the admission of elderly patients and it has reviewed and improved its information system and complaints procedures. All health authorities in Wales have reviewed their admission arrangements, particularly in relation to the elderly.

Is the Secretary of State aware that his hon. Friend gave me an assurance earlier this year that there would be no cover-up in this case? Is he aware that the area health authority's private committee of inquiry did not take evidence from Mrs. Hughes' general practitioner? Is he aware that they considered only a letter from the hospital doctor responsible for the decision to send her home? Is he further aware that the Select Committee on the Health Service Commissioner has vindicated him and his report, which used words such as "inhuman", "a shocking case", and "misleading" and "deplorable" attitudes on the part of the area health authority? Can the position be allowed to remain there? Is it not time to set up an independent and proper committee of inquiry?

This matter, the circumstances of which caused me very great concern, has now been thoroughly investigated by the Health Service Commissioner. His report has been endorsed and vindicated by the Select Committee. It has been investigated by the area health authority. I sent for the chairman and told him of my dismay and told him to ensure that the procedures were reformed to ensure as best as one could that this situation should not recur. I have here the recommendation sent to junior doctors and others who might be responsible for decisions. We have sought to ensure all over Wales that the procedures and lessons of this extremely unhappy incident have been learnt and that it will not be repeated.

I can see no reason for continuing further with any other investigation which will reveal no new facts.

Is the Secretary of State aware that, in spite of these unfortunate incidents, the Royal Alexandra hospital continues to command the loyalty and devotion of a great many people in the Rhyl area?

I am grateful to the hon. Member. This was a highly regrettable and, I hope, unique incident. It is important now to reassure the public that the procedures are such that the chances of such a thing happening are minimised to the utmost. Instructions have gone out to achieve that. That in no way detracts, however, from my serious concern and my expressions of deep dismay which I made to the chairman for whom I sent on that occasion.

Was the Ombudsman's criticism of the area health authority or of the clinical judgment of a relatively junior doctor? If it was the latter, were there any other examples of wrong judgment of this kind? Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman considered the position of the doctor concerned—whether he has ever had the chance to vindicate his clinical judgment?

I am sure that the hon. and learned Member will want to refresh his mind on the matters canvassed in the Health Commissioner's report. There were criticisms which I would have thought went beyond the matter of clinical judgment. It was a matter of common sense and humanity, of sending out an old lady aged 103 in the early hours of the morning. Whether one considers that strictly to be a matter of clinical judgment or of something much more, I should have thought that the procedure should be such that elderly people of that age are not sent home in the early hours of the morning without proper procedures and without consultation with the general practitioner, and with account taken of the availability of other resources in the hospital. All that has been done.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many access agreements have been made in the Snowdonia national park to the present date; and how many more are being negotiated.

None to date. The Gwynedd county council has commenced negotiations in five cases.

Is the Minister aware that that is an unsatisfactory answer and that access agreements bring considerable benefit in other national parks both to the farmers and to others who want to use these areas for recreation? Does not my hon. Friend feel that steps should be taken to speed up the making of access agreements within the Snowdonia national park?

We are taking steps to speed up the completion of access agreements. I must stress, however, that they are agreements. If they are to work properly, they must be properly conducted and agreed to by all the parties to them. They have to be considered and approved by six bodies apart from the individual farmers. We would all like progress to be speedier and I hope that we can secure that.

Order. I apologise to the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. Thomas) in that I did not see him when he rose to ask a supplementary question to Question No. 6 relating to his constituency. It is too late now.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when the referendum on devolution in Wales will take place.

The Government propose that it should be held on 1st March 1979.

Since the continuing uncertainty about the structure of government in Wales is bound to be bad for Wales, may I ask why the Government did not hold the referendum in September or last month? Why are they not holding it this month? Did they fix 1st March next year as the date for the referendum merely to give them a few extra months' leverage over the Welsh nationalists?

I would have thought that most hon. Members would be united in agreeing that in a matter of this kind there should be the highest possible vote. The best chance of securing such a vote is to hold the referendum early as possible on a new register. I would have thought that that was the most democratic way of going about things.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the product of marginal land in Wales.

No precise information is available about the output from marginal land specifically. The Government are well aware of the problems of farming such land and are keeping the matter under review.

Is the Minister aware that this difficult type of land, of which we have a great deal in Wales, would be capable of yielding far greater food production if we had a small investment of Government aid? Is he aware that this matter comes broadly within the terms of the European directive concerning less favoured lands? Does he agree that the loss of the beef cow and calf subsidy has been a particularly heavy blow to farmers of such land?

Certainly it is true that this type of land is difficult to farm. The solution to the problem is equally difficult. For instance, we could well be talking of about half a million acres of such land in Wales, comprising about 20 per cent. of the agricultural land. We are certainly aware of the problem. It has been drawn to our attention by hon. Members. We have had consultations with a variety of organisations in an attempt to find some way of dealing with it. Farmers of marginal land can apply for aid in the form of grants for capital improvements and can obtain practical advice from the Agricultural Development Advisory Service.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that the answer he has given today is a good deal less encouraging than that which he gave on a previous occasion, when he certainly gave the impression that the Government were hoping to find a solution to these difficult problems? Does his answer mean that the Government have failed to solve the problem? Is he aware that we would all agree that more can be produced from this land, of which there is a great deal in Wales?

The Government are hoping to make a statement on this matter shortly. If, for instance, it was suggested that we could solve the problem simply by extending the EEC directive on less favoured lands, that could be done only with the agreement of our partners in Europe. It is not simply a matter for Her Majesty's Government.

How helpful is my hon. Friend finding the EEC in these talks on marginal land?

This is a matter which we shall be discussing with our partners in Europe.

Is the Minister aware of the decline in the beef herd in Wales during the past few years? Is he further aware that what the marginal hill farmer is looking for now is something to give him confidence in the future? Can the Minister give an assurance today that financial aid will be given to the hill farmers between now and next year's price review?

The hon. Gentleman should await the publication of the review of "Food from Our Own Resources". I am sure that that document will give to the farmers the confidence which he says they are seeking.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what further measures the Government have in mind to reduce unemployment in Wales.

As the Gracious Speech made clear, the Government will continue to pursue every available means of moving to full employment. To this end, a number of measures were announced in the Speech which will be of benefit in Wales as well as the United Kingdom.

In spite of what the Secretary of State has said, he will no doubt be aware that the prospect for employment in Wales is very grim. Is he also aware that many job creation schemes, good, bad and indifferent as they are, are coming to an end? Will he look into the possibility of extending support for the best of these schemes, such as those in Bangor and Conway, which have certainly received extensive local support?

We shall always look at a whole range of special measures to ensure that we use the best to further the opportunities for all who are not otherwise in employment. I welcome the hon. Gentleman's support. I would have hoped that he would seek the earliest opportunity to dissociate himself from a weekend speech made by the Shadow Chancellor, the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe), in which he said that he wanted to reduce regional incentives and was against support for the Welsh Development Agency and sought to reduce the restrictions on expansion in the South-East and the Midlands. I know that the hon. Member's constituents in Conway would have welcomed an immediate disavowal of that speech.

Has the Secretary of State had an opportunity to consider proposals to extend the geographical remit of the Development Board for Rural Wales in view of the undoubted success of this board in setting up new enterprises in Mid-Wales?

I have regarded it as the prime objective of the Development Board for Rural Wales to concentrate in the first instance on the old five counties. The Welsh Development Agency has a responsibility for the whole of Wales. Such are the problems of the old five counties that I believe that the Development Board for Rural Wales should be allowed to get on with that task for a number of years, leaving the rest of Wales to the Welsh Development Agency.

May I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to give all possible encouragement to the Manpower Services Commission, which is now deeply involved with the youth opportunities programme? Does he agree that it should make provision for our school leavers? Will my right hon. and learned Friend also consider encouraging the Welsh Development Agency, now that it is getting additional finance, to get itself involved in creating new enterprises?

The new youth opportunities programme of the Manpower Services Commission is providing substantial help in tackling the problems of unemployment among young people. I understand that in Wales the Manpower Services Commission remains confident that its Easter guarantee will be met. I give the Welsh Development Agency every encouragement to seek new enterprises and new investment opportunities across Wales. It is a matter of substantial encouragement that, throughout Wales, the agency is now regarded as a formidable force for ensuring greater opportunity of employment.

Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the more the Government's income policy is eroded, and the more they have to rely upon controlling the money supply, the bleaker become the prospects for employment in Wales?

I have nothing to add on this point to what my right hon. Friends the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister have said in the course of the debates of the past few days.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what further action is proposed to encourage industrial development in the valleys of South Wales.

I shall continue to encourage industrial development in the valleys through a variety of measures. including the provision of factory space coupled with generous financial incentives and the improvement of communications.

Although I appreciate what the Government have already done, may I ask whether my right hon. and learned Friend has seen the report concerning possible closures in the coal industry in South Wales? May I ask him to have discussions with the Department of Energy, which is already having discussions with the miners' union in South Wales, so that we can deal with the problems arising from possible closures and so that, where possible, closures can be avoided in the case of pits which have not been exhausted?

I am aware of the concern of my hon. Friend. He has already mentioned this to me and I understand that he and a number of my colleagues have met the National Union of Mineworkers. This is primarily a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy. I can assure my hon. Friend that I and my junior Ministers keep in close touch with my right hon. Friend.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are certain black spots in Wales, such as the Rhymney valley, where unemployment is running at a tremendous rate and where threatened closures over a period of three weeks have affected nearly 1,000 people? May I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to treat this matter with the urgency with which Ebbw Vale was treated? Is he aware that in the Rhymney valley and the western valley of Gwent there is probably just as much unemployment as there is in Ebbw Vale? Will my right hon. and learned Friend appoint a task force, set it targets and use his influence to see that finance is forthcoming to implement the recommendations of such an economic task force in the Rhymney valley and the western valley of Gwent?

I am not sure that task forces are the answer to problems either in Ebbw Vale or in the Rhymney valley. What is important is to see that whenever a problem presents itself the resources to solve it are made available. This applies to roads, general infrastructure, factory building and land clearance. I assure my hon. Friend that the problems of the Rhymney valley will be in the forefront of my mind whenever I consider these problems.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend, when paying attention to the interests of the coal industry, as I know he always does, consider the relatively huge subsidy paid in various forms to the coal industries in other parts of the EEC? Will he associate himself with the campaign to obtain subsidies for British coal, especially Welsh coal, so as to make that coal as commercially acceptable and viable as is coal from other parts of the EEC?

I am aware of the fact that, as I understand it, some parts of the coal industry in the EEC, particularly in the German industry, are said to receive subsidies. This is a matter primarily for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy, but I assure the House that I always keep in close touch regarding any matter relating to the Welsh coal industry.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the operation of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 in Wales.

Many thousands of leaseholders have successfully acquired their freeholds under the provisions of the Act, which has conferred great benefit in Wales. I am aware of the difficulties which some leaseholders in Wales have experienced and am considering carefully the implications of these.

I am grateful for what my hon. Friend said in part of his reply. I know that he understands the problems in Wales. However, is it not now time to make progress in changing the current legislation so that legal aid is made available in cases that come before the Lands Tribunal?

Does not my hon. Friend agree that the Lands Tribunal could be replaced by local valuation courts to give greater access to those who require to buy their freeholds, that there should be automatic enfranchisement in the case of 999-year leases and that at the expiration of an eight-week period from the time that a tenant states that he is willing to buy his freehold the ground landlord should be required to reply, if he has not already done so? Would not these steps greatly relieve the thousands of people who are facing leasehold difficulties in South Wales?

I shall attempt to answer my hon. Friend's supplementary questions. It has been suggested that some people in Wales are somewhat reluctant to go to the Lands Tribunal. Only three cases in Wales have reached the Lands Tribunal. The tribunal has recently changed its procedures to enable it to consider cases on the basis of written submissions. I hope that this in itself will encourage more leaseholders to make use of the tribunal. I welcome the suggestions put forward by my hon. Friend and others in the House so that we can ensure that if the Act is not perfect—it is no good pretending that it is perfect—any deficiencies are remedied.

Has the Minister had reports to the effect that exorbitant sums are being demanded for the sale of freeholds? If he has received such reports, will he consider amending the Leasehold Reform Act to confine such sums to, say a figure of £400?

It is certainly true that some of the figures which have come to my attention suggest that fairness in negotiations has not been achieved. If we contemplate taking any steps to change the Act, we shall take fully into account the difficulties which the Welsh people are experiencing.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the proposed changes to the Eglwys Wen primary school at Whitchurch, Cardiff.

As well as three letters forwarded to my right hon. and learned Friend by the hon. Member, he has received 10 letters from local residents, some with multiple signatures.

Does the Minister recognise that the proposals for the Eglwys Wen primary school are totally unacceptable to parents because they diminish the amenities available to children and introduce segregation by language so that children in the same building will not eat, play or talk together? However, does he appreciate that, despite all these factors, there is no hostility to the Welsh language? Will he allay the genuine fears of people in the area by holding a public inquiry?

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the proposals will fall to be considered by the Secretary of State for Wales under the provisions of section 13 of the Education Act 1944. I cannot comment on the merits of the proposals at a time when the statutory procedures are in process. Nevertheless, I confirm that the hon. Gentleman has raised the matter with me and expressed his concern. It is our policy generally to encourage local education authorities to make provision for bilingual education in keeping with the needs and characteristics of their areas and taking account of the wishes of the parents.

Does the Minister accept that in this and other cases one has to balance the position in a neighbourhood against the inconvenience to many parents who require Welsh-based education to "bus" their children long distances to the inner city areas because there is no neighbourhood provision? Will he examine the amount of money which the Government propose to allow local authorities in specific grants and consider whether that amount should be increased to enable difficulties of this kind to be alleviated by a new building programme?

The hon. Gentleman speaks with experience of his subject, but I shall not be tempted into going wider than the original Question. However, I am glad that the hon. Gentleman mentioned specific grants. I am sure he agrees that throughout Wales there has been a good welcome for the proposals. Indeed, when the NUT and the Welsh Joint Education Committee agree, it is a matter for rejoicing in Wales.

Will my hon. Friend underline the fact that Wales does not want to see any system of apartheid operating inside its schools? Does he agree that there is no desire by Wales to introduce the kind of system which exists in Ulster and that, judging by the strong feelings which have been expressed to me and to other hon. Members in Wales, the view is that once again there has been strong politicising of the language, which is causing grave and unnecessary divisions in Wales?

There will be no apartheid in Wales. That is the last thing the Department would wish. I draw attention to what the Secretary of State for Wales said when the initiative on specific grants was announced. He said—and I agree with him— that he hoped that the grant would help to end the hostility and diversiveness caused by providing bilingual education.

Will the Minister give a firm assurance that there will be consultation with parents in all these cases, and that the Welsh Office will ensure that such consultation takes place and will supervise the process?

The Welsh Office has always ensured that consultation is adequate and genuine.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what facilities he proposes to extend to assist either side or both sides in the referendum under the Wales Act.

The Government have no plans to give financial or other assistance to campaign organisations.

Does this mean that the information division of the Welsh Office will not be brought in to support the "Yes" campaign during the referendum? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept that Ministers who represent Welsh constituencies, Members of Parliament for Welsh constituencies and even civil servants in Wales should be allowed publicly to express their opinion about the future of their own country?

Each Minister will be answerable for himself. In regard to civil servants, there are well-established procedures in regard to their role in taking part in political activities of this kind. I have nothing to add.

Is it not the fact that, although there will be no direct financial help to either side, the Government will put the full weight of their public relations machine on to one side in the campaign?

That is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council, and no doubt it will be dealt with if the hon. Gentleman seeks to table a Question to my right hon. Friend. I assure the hon. Gentleman that this is Government policy, and the Government will want to ensure that their policy is put into effect.

What will happen about postal facilities in respect of all those who take part in the campaign? Will facilities be given to all the various lobbies to ensure that their point of view is presented to the electorate? Is it not proper that as soon as possible the Secretary of State should lay down his suggested ground rules on these subjects and state whether there will be any facilities and, if so, to whom they will be afforded? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman have discussions with the BBC and the IBA on the presentation of various views to ensure that they will consider the independent views of Labour Members, who represent the overwhelming majority of the Labour electorate?

I shall try to assist my hon. Friend on the whole host of supplementary questions which he has put to me. The matter of broadcasting time is a matter for the broadcasting authorities, which have an obligation to ensure that as far as possible due impartiality is preserved. It is also for the broadcasting authorities to decide whether to allocate time to campaign organisations.

I take it that my hon. Friend wants to encourage postal votes in the referendum as in all elections. The matter is under consideration. It is in the interests of all concerned that the vote should be as high as possible. Consideration is being given to whether there should be any publicity, as is usual in the course of a General Election, to ensure that there is registration for postal votes. The conduct of the referendum generally is a matter for consideration by the House when a draft Order in Council is laid under schedule 12 to the Wales Act.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a further statement on the policy of dispersal.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service how many additional civil servants have been required each year since 1974 as a consequence of the dispersal programme; and what is his annual estimate for such additional requirements until the end of the programme.

The programme of dispersing Civil Service posts from London, announced by the Government on 30th July 1974, is proceeding in accordance with the timetable announced by my right hon. and noble Friend the Lord Privy Seal on 29th July 1977. As I advised the hon. Member for Bromsgrove and Redditch (Mr. Miller) on 3rd April, the Hardman report suggested that the dispersal programme might entail a net increase of about 30 posts for every 1,000 dispersed with an additional 30 in the short term. Staff increases for dispersal approved so far have been broadly in line with these levels.

Why do the Government persist in uprooting the families of civil servants in the South-East to relieve unemployment in the provinces when there is unemployment in the South-East?

It is not the fact that the Government are uprooting the families of civil servants in the South-East. The Government's dispersal programme is based on civil servants volunteering for dispersal. Dispersal means bringing civil servants in administrative jobs to regions that suffer from structural employment difficulties.

The Minister referred to dispersal from London. Will he confirm that no jobs, especially in the Ministry of Defence, have been relocated from other areas than London to the dispersal areas to maintain the impetus of the Hardman proposals?

No, I cannot give any such confirmation or assurance. The dispersal programme affecting the Ministry of Defence will go forward as envisaged.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that I and some of my hon. Friend's have strongly supported the dispersal programme under the Hardman proposals because we wanted to see civil servants removed from the South-Eastern area into other regions where there was high unemployment? Does he accept that the Ministry of Defence proposals do not fall into that category?

I accept some of my hon. Friend's points. The composition of the Ministry of Defence package will be determined by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. My hon. Friend represents a constituency in the North-East and he will recognise the contribution that dispersal can bring to the regions.

Does the Minister agree that one of the more favourable aspects of the success of dispersal has been that of the National Savings Bank at Cowglen, Glasgow? Will he consult the Treasury on the basis that the Civil Service unions are totally opposed to the merger of Giro at Bootle and the National Savings Bank in Glasgow because of possible job losses in both areas?

The question posed in the comments of the hon. Lady does not arise from the Question. However, I accept that the moving of the National Savings Bank to Cowglen represents a splendid example of jobs coming to Scotland. A similar example was the dispersal of the Royal Mint to Llantrisant, South Wales.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm once again his intention to pursue relentlessly the possibility of dispersal to Glasgow and other parts of Scotland? Will he bear in mind that recently he visited the new town of Glenrothes, which is desperately anxious for further dispersal to parts of Scotland other than Glasgow? Will he give an assurance that his mind is not closed on those matters?

I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that my mind is closed as regards dispersal to Glasgow. The dispersal to Glasgow will go ahead as planned. As for my visit to my hon. Friend's constituency, I shall bear in mind the claims of that area given the prospect of a further dispersal programme when and if it arises.

As employment conditions and opportunities have changed considerably since the Hardman Committee reported in 1973, what calculations have the Government made about this change in employment as regards dispersal and what conclusions have they drawn?

When the Hardman report was published there was envisaged the dispersal of 31,000 Civil Service jobs from London and the South-East over the 10 years from 1974 to 1984. The calculations for those projections were contained within the report.

rose—

Let us move on.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on progress towards open government.

Since the Prime Minister's statement in the debate on the Address on 24th November 1976 and Sir Douglas Allen's letter to Departments of 6th July 1977, Government Departments have published and made available a great deal of material. The recent White Paper, Cmnd. 7285, makes clear that the Government have not yet come to a firm decision on how to proceed in developing the practice of open government. A more detailed study of overseas practices is to be made and further proposals, as promised in the Gracious Speech, will be brought forward in due course.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Will he say why it is taking so long to get the study of overseas practices under way? Bearing in mind that the latest information from the General Accounting Office in America on the cost of running the American legislation was published on 16th June, will he explain why it arrived in his office via The Times at the request of his Department on 31st October, some three months after the publication of the Government White Paper that says that the job would be done anyway?

I give my hon. Friend the assurance that my office welcomes information from any source, especially The Times newspaper. My hon. Friend referred to delay in initiating the study. I hope that he and other hon. Members will bear in mind that we are moving towards a fundamental change in our society as regards open government. Although the goal is not in doubt, it is right to look carefully at ways of achieving it.

As the catch phrase "open government" is a contradiction in terms, how can progress be made towards it?

How much progress has been made towards it? As the right hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members will recognise, ever since the letter published by Sir Douglas Allen on 6th July 1977 the evidence has been there to see. Appreciable information is now coming from Government Departments.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he expects next to meet representatives of the Civil Service trade unions.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he will next be meeting the staff side representatives of the Whitley Council.

I am in frequent contact with representatives of the Civil Service trade unions and the staff side of the National Whitley Council.

Bearing in mind that only a few months ago the Government approved an average 31 per cent. salary increase for certain top public officials—namely, Army officers, judges, chairmen of national industries and others covered by the Boyle report—does my right hon. Friend accept that it would be only fair to give a firm commitment to the Civil Service trade unions that the Government will accept the findings of the Civil Service Pay Research Unit instead of try- ing rigidly to impose a miserable 5 per cent. limit on the thousands of ordinary workers in the Civil Service who make up the backbone of our public services?

I shall give consideration to my hon. Friend's point. As for civil servants' pay, we are awaiting the report of the reactivated Pay Research Unit, which is expected within the next few weeks. That will provide evidence for a pay settlement with an effective date from 1st April 1979.

When the Minister next meets the Civil Service trade unions, will he take into account the very strong local and other opposition of the trade unions and others to the proposal to disperse Ministry of Defence personnel from the Bath area to Glasgow? Will he recognise that this will lead to higher costs, loss of efficiency and great personal inconvenience?

I do not accept all the suggestions made in the hon. Gentleman's question but will certainly give consideration to the attitude of the staff when the dispersal package from MOD is presented to the Civil Service Department.

asked the Lord President of the Council what is Government policy towards those organisations in Scotland campaigning for an affirmative vote in the coming referendum.

Naturally, the Government welcome public support for their policies.

Will my right hon. Friend strongly resist the criticism directed at him when he agreed to meet the "Yes for Scotland" umbrella campaign to discuss the need to conduct the referendum on fair rules? Is my right hon. Friend in a position at the moment to announce that in principle the Government are prepared to adjust the electoral register to ensure, for example, that people who die between now and polling day do not count "No" in the referendum?

I am not able to give a complete statement on the matter to my hon. Friend, but certainly the matter which he and others in the House raised during the course of the Bill's passage is under very active consideration by the Government. We recognise the equity of deducting from the register those who are not entitled to vote by reason of the fact that they are deceased.

Will the Minister of State say whether during the recess he had the opportunity of reconsidering the Government's peculiar decision not to issue a neutral leaflet of explanation to the electors in this important referendum indicating what the Scotland Act is all about?

The Government came to the conclusion that it would be beyond the wit of man to produce a leaflet which each side regarded as neutral. The House knows that there would have had to be statutory provision within the Scotland Act for finance to be made available to either side, and there was certainly no consensus on that.

The hon. Gentleman will remember that campaign money was made available to both sides for the EEC referendum, in addition to the leaflet, which distinguished the case. The Government will make every effort to make sure that the Scotland Act is well understood, because we believe that the more it is understood the more it will be approved.

asked the Lord President of the Council when it is proposed to hold the referendums on devolution to Scottish and Welsh Assemblies; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Lord President of the Council when he proposes that the referendum on the Government's proposals for Welsh and Scottish Assemblies be held.

As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced on 1st November, the referendums are to be held on 1st March 1979.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that we appreciate that the referendum is to be held on St. David's Day, in line with a suggestion which I made in Committee? Will he now ensure that there will be guidelines for the conduct of the referendum? If he has discussions, will he ensure that these are not merely with the usual channels but with all those who are interested in this matter?

Will my right hon. Friend also ensure, with regard to the media and broadcasting in particular, that both the BBC and the independent broadcasting authorities give an objective and impartial assessment of the case for and against the proposals for an Assembly?

It is not the business of the broadcasting authorities to do exactly as my hon. Friend has suggested. It is their business to take into account their requirement to be impartial in these matters, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Wales mentioned a few minutes ago.

As for the date of 1st March having been chosen because of the representations of my hon. Friend, it just shows how accommodating we are, and on that account I am looking forward to his conversion to Labour Party policy.

In view of the earlier mention by the Minister of the need for equity in disseminating the argument on the various sides of the referendum questions, will the Lord President tell us what reply the Government intend to send to the Scottish council of the Labour Party and, indeed, to the Welsh Labour Party, which have both requested funding for the conduct of a "Yes" campaign?

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is essential that funding be given to such organisations on the "Yes" side, in view of the fact that the CBI, or at least elements of the CBI and its Tory allies, will do everything possible to do down the "Yes" campaign?

The requests that were made on the subject, as reported in the newspapers, from the Labour Party in Scotland and the Labour Party in Wales were to the Labour Party organisation, and this is a quite separate matter.

The hon. Lady really should not be frightened about the CBI. Nobody really thinks that on such a matter as this anyone will be swayed by its antediluvian opinion.

If the 40 per cent. hurdle in both referendums is passed, does the Lord President see any reason why the first Assembly election should not be held on the same day as the European Assembly election, on 7th June?

I think that we should take into account the results of the advisory referendums when they are forthcoming, and the House of Commons will take them into account in its recommendation of the date. It would be a presumption on the part of myself and the Government to presume what would happen afterwards until we have seen the results of the referendums.

asked the Lord President of the Council when he expects to publish the Government's reply to the recent report of the Select Committee on Procedure which contained recommendations on departmental Select Committees.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will bring forward proposals to implement the recommendation of the Select Committee on Procedure for expanding the functions of Select Committees of this House.

asked the Lord President of the Council what plans he has to implement the proposals made by the Select Committee on Procedure in its recent report.

I hope to arrange a debate on this major report as soon as possible.

If it is true that the monitoring of the activities of Government Departments by Parliament has deteriorated and that some restoration of the influence of this House upon the activities of Government Departments is desirable, can the Lord President think of a more direct way of achieving that objective than by accepting the recommendation of the Select Committee to have a Select Committee to shadow each Government Department?

That is, of course, one of the major recommendations—perhaps the major recommendation—from the Committee. I am sure that the House of Commons as a whole will have to consider such a proposition very carefully. It is certainly a far-reaching proposition, and I believe that the House should approach the matter in that way.

Will the Lord President give us an assurance that, in view of the rising public concern about the concealment of Government Departments—more particularly, perhaps, over the Rhodesia issue and sanctions—there will be a free debate on the need to establish Select Committees with the terms of reference mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. McCrindle)?

I give the hon. Gentleman the indication that there will be a debate in which the House will have every opportunity of giving its view on the matter. In saying that, I am not accepting the hon. Gentleman's premise in the earlier part of his question.

Since the Queen's Speech has shown, quite properly, an anxiety to reform so many sectors of our public life, is it not urgent and proper that we should now get on with the job of reforming the procedures of this House? Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that he will set aside his medieval prejudices against Committees and come to the House with positive support for the very moderate and constructive report that we have had from the Select Committee?

My hon. Friend is trying to prejudge the debate which we shall have on these matters. I repudiate any suggestions that my views on these matters are medieval. It is simply that I am very doubtful whether we should seek to engraft upon this House the methods of government which are used in the United States of America.

With regard to the Select Committee's recommendations on the handling of official documents, does the Lord President of the Council approve of the way in which the hon. Member for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore) passed round a Treasury document in the General Sub-Committee of the Expenditure Committee on Friday? Does he have a comment to make about it now, and will he investigate it?

I do not think that that question arises from the Questions on the Order Paper. Therefore, eager as I am to satisfy the hon. Gentleman, I have no intention of doing so at this moment.

May we take it from the replies given by my right hon. Friend that he will arrange a debate before a formal written reply, if any, is sent to the Select Committee on the proposals? Will he give an undertaking that that will be a two-day debate, preferably before Christmas, so that there may be legislation on the proposals, if need be, before the General Election?

I think we should still consider whether the Government should first make a statement on the report. I think that probably the best way to proceed is for the House to have the debate before the Government come to conclusions on the matter. If that is the desire of the House, I am sure that the Government will take that into account. I think, therefore, that the best way to proceed is for the Chairman of the Committee and others to present the matter to the House, for the House to have a debate and for the Government to take fully into account the views expressed.

As the issues raised by the report of the Select Committee are farreaching—I agree with the right hon. Gentleman about that—how does he envisage the debate taking place? Does he envisage one general debate on the whole report, or will he break it up in such a way as to enable the House to concentrate for part of the day, for example, on the proposals for a Select Committee? What does he visualise? I support the right hon. Gentleman in the idea of holding an early debate so that the House can give its opinion, but it is a matter of how that debate is to be organised.

I am prepared to take into account any representations of the right hon. Gentleman on the way we might have the debate on some of the important questions, such as those which have attracted special attention and those which have already been mentioned. The Select Committee has also made recommendations about how we should conduct EEC business in this House. That is another major section of the report. I believe that we should consider carefully what is the best way of proceeding to have a debate which is not too diffuse but can concentrate on some of the main issues.