Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[ Mr. Bates.]
10 p.m.
I believe that the subject covered by this short debate is important not just for Northampton but for all local radio. Some of the facts and worries which I shall put to the Minister have implications for what I regard as a vital service.
I should make clear at the outset that I am a director of two advertising agencies which buy time on commercial radio where that is appropriate to their clients' needs, but neither I nor the agencies have any financial investment in any independent local radio stations.Is the hon. Gentleman declaring an interest?
I have read Annan, and I have read the White Paper, especially paragraph 33 thereof which defines the criteria for expansion. I have read the report of the Home Office working party which was set up after publication of the White Paper and reported in October. I wish to make clear from the outset that I have nothing particularly against the BBC, but my primary concern is to assess the needs of Northampton and to judge how far the working party's proposals meet those needs.
In this context I think it worth commenting that the working party had only three meetings and it was told to report in a hurry. I fear that the hazards of speed of execution are demonstrated in paragraph 19 of its report, where, talking about the list of recommended stations, the working party said that one proceedsMy only comment on that is that anybody who had done any deep investigation or homework in Northampton would have known that the town indeed wanted local radio but the majority preferred a commercial station."in the light of known support."
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. That is simply not true. I speak as the Member for Northampton, North, and I know that the majority of my constituents wanted a BBC Radio Northampton, and that is what I asked the Minister for.
I think that I shall demonstrate to the hon. Lady that her assertion is not correct. Perhaps I may be allowed to continue.
Other key points came out of the working party's report. As regards the BBC, there was confirmation that the BBC local radio at best puts out about 12 hours of locally produced material whereas the independent stations, on average, produce between 18 and 24 hours of locally produced material. Certainly, from Northampton's point of view, we should prefer as much locally produced material as possible, and I imagine that that would probably be true of any town in this country. I worry when I read in the report the insinuation that as a quid pro quo for the running down of BBC Norwich there is to be given to the BBC a large share of the local radio stations in the East of England. We note also that the BBC has been allocated four stations in that area, compared with one for independent radio. I have to tell the Minister that Northampton is not interested in being part of a quid pro quo Finally, it is clearly stated in the working party's report that the British Broadcasting Corporation's future is decided today, as we all know, by the board of governors and that local radio has to fit into the context of the corporation's total requirements and resources. I think that I shall probably take the hon. Lady with me when I say that Northampton as a whole is a little tired of fitting in with central Government Departments. We have had a raw deal in local government rates, a raw deal on the Health Service and a raw deal on the railways—and there are probably other examples which I could mention. I think that I partly take the hon. Lady with me. The key point appears in paragraph 18 of the working party's report, where it states that it should not have to decide between the merits of BBC and independent radio. There are one or two more general points to be made before I turn specifically to Northampton. The proposition is often bandied around that people prefer the BBC and that independent radio stations are all pop. I asked the IBA for the latest figures from the JICRAR survey. As the Minister will know, JICRAR is an independent body that produces figures that are not questioned by the industry. The survey showed that almost everywhere the public prefer independent local radio. In the areas where there is independent local radio, the latest figures are that independent local radio has a listenership of 28½ per cent. Radio I has 26 per cent., Radio 2 has 20 per cent. and BBC local radio has a rather meagre 6 per cent. Listenership is not even static. Over the past year there has been a trend towards independent local radio taking listeners from Radio 1, Radio 4 and BBC local radio. Only the Radio 2 listeners have remained loyal. There is a continuing trend towards independent radio. It is only in Nottingham, Portsmouth and Southampton that BBC local radio is ahead of independent local radio. I looked for as near an analogy to Northampton as I could find among the existing stations. The nearest one that I could find is Radio Orwell, which is based at Ipswich. It is a fairly recent station. The Radio Orwell figures are even more illuminating. We find that 43 per cent. of adults listen to Radio Orwell in the Ipswich area. In Ipswich town, no fewer than 81 per cent. of the population is listening at some time during the week. I mention these figures not to knock the BBC but because they are directly relevant to a commercial centre such as Northampton, where commercial people look for coverage and penetration, and not only availability. The Minister may say "That is all very interesting, but why all the fuss about Northampton? You have been given one local radio station. You should be jolly thankful for that." The Minister knows that Northampton is one of the fastest growing parts of Europe. It is a new town. There is a brand new shopping centre that is now on the margin of viability. The fact that it is at that level has been partly caused by the cut-back in the planned growth of the town. The one thing that united Northampton people was their wish to be consulted about the sort of radio station that they were to get. The fact is that they were not consulted. The lack of consultation has resulted in an unprecedented reaction. The Minister has a letter from the county council that was addressed to the Home Secretary. The council states that it had no opportunity to express any preference. It passed a resolution stating that it expected the BBC to be on the air within 18 months and that if it were not the Home Secretary should undertake a review. It has gone even further—this is extraordinary for a county council—and urged the Home Secretary to introduce legislation to require public consultation. The chamber of trade has written to the effect that at its executive council meeting a lengthy discussion took place on local radio, a vote was taken and there was overwhelming support for local radio. The chamber of commerce wrote that it questioned the way that Northampton has been given what I call second division status in being considered for the second phase of the new BBC stations. It pointed out that in its view Northampton is at the hub of commerce. It asks for a dual franchise. I have many other letters and cuttings. I have a short article from the hon. Lady and a considerably longer letter from the citizens of Northampton. Regardless of what one's views may be, there has been a terrific reaction at the arbitrary nature of the decision. The preference of those whom I am quoting—they form a pretty representative body, including the whole of the county council, the chamber of trade, the chamber of commerce and numerous citizens plus myself—is for independent radio, because we believe and they believe that when public money is scarce it should be used to the best possible effect, and if private money is available it should be used, because it is cheaper and quicker for all concerned. We are at the heart of England in Northampton, and, quite frankly, we prefer the prospect of producing our own material. If we can produce it for 18 to 24 hours, that is better than the 12 hours that the BBC offers. In many cases the BBC offers considerably less than 12 hours. We have many shift workers in our town. They do a good job for the nation's exports and for the hospital services and in other respects. Experience with BBC local radio is that it goes off the air at 7.30 p.m. That is of little use to our shift workers. People on a night shift like to have something local, something that involves them, and that is demonstrated by the success of a number of the commercial stations elsewhere in the country. We are a commercial centre. We make no bones about that. We are a prosperous town. We have seen our way out of difficulties in a manner that many other towns have not been able to achieve. The only reason why we maintain this prosperity is that we are commercially aware. We want to make the town viable, and particularly our major shopping centre. My fear is that if Peterborough is to get a commercial station, Peterborough will drag trade from Northampton, and particularly from Northampton's hinterland. When I hear a rumour that Peterborough would have preferred a BBC station to an independent station, I wonder whether we could do a swap. There are also certain technical problems. There is no doubt that we are in an overlap area for television. We are right on the fringe of Anglia, it is almost a day's march to get to Norwich and it is certainly half a day's march to get to Birmingham. We are not well served commercially, and it is hardly viable for traders in the town to advertise on those television stations. The Minister may also know that for many years Northampton has been used as a test market for many manufacturers, because we reflect a microcosm of the United Kingdom. The additional medium of independent radio would facilitate the continuing development of that business, which is important to us. There are, I believe, local consortia available. Northampton people would prefer to have local money put into it. I am aware of two consortia, and I believe that there are possibilities of a third. Most people in the town would find that preferable to having a branch office of a public corporation. I hope that when the Minister has reflected on my remarks she will see that there is enough evidence there to sway her. I should like to mention one or two aspects which worry me about this case. It was as early as February of this year that I received a letter from one of the prospective consortia concerning rumours that Peterborough was to be given preference for an independent station. As the working party did not meet until July, I have to ask where the rumour came from. I have had that letter, and in all sincerity I ask why the rumour abounded. It appears to have been a well-justified rumour. The BBC has now stated publicly—this is a vital point—that we are to be in the second phase of this new projected development, the first stage being Barrow, Lincoln, Norwich and Taunton. It is said that the remainder, including Northampton, are dependent on the new television licence fee, yet we read in this morning's Daily Mail that the BBC's request for a £30 licence is to be reduced to £26 or thereabouts and that the BBC has stated that this is far too little to keep even existing local services going. Many of us wonder whether it will ever happen. We can find no evidence that the working party has looked at the commercial factors involved. If it has not, I must ask why it has not, because it is fundamental to our town. My plea to the Minister is to cease regarding Northampton as a second-class town and to respond to the local pleas for a dual franchise. Indeed, as the Minister knows, this would probably accord with the working party, which, in looking to the future, said:I conclude with that quotation from the working party and my request to the Minister to consider what I have said tonight and to come back with a proposal which will allow us to look at the possibilities of a dual franchise and of Northampton having a viable local radio service."We do not consider that a decision now to set up a BBC or an IBA local radio station in a particular location should necessarily rule out some measure of duplication relatively early in the continuing expansion of local radio, given the Government's intention that much of the country should have both services."
10.15 p.m.
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Northampton, South (Mr. Morris) for raising this issue tonight. I am aware that he has written to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary about it.
I think that it would be helpful if I were to begin by saying something on the general question of the expansion of local radio following the recent White Paper on broadcasting, for this is the context in which the question of local radio in the hon. Gentleman's constituency arises. Thirty-nine local radio stations—20 BBC stations and 19 IBA stations—have been broadcasting for some years now. The White Paper noted that the advent and the success of local radio had been an important feature of the development of broadcasting in recent years and that there was an evident demand for resuming the expansion of local radio now that the Annan committee's report had been received and considered. The White Paper stated that it was the Government's intention that local radio should be brought to as much of the population of the United Kingdom as possible as soon as possible. It was considered that sufficient frequencies could be made available for two local radio services for much of the country. I trust that Northampton will be one of those places in due course. The Government therefore concluded that both the BBC and the IBA should be permitted to expand their local services in accordance with certain criteria laid down in the White Paper. The White Paper recognises that in some areas—and we are thinking here primarily of the more remote and less populous parts of the country—it will be neither sensible nor practicable to provide more than one service. Thus, some areas will have either a BBC local radio station or an independent local radio station. But I should emphasise that it is the aim that as much of the population as possible should eventually have both BBC and independent local radio services. The rate at which BBC and independent local radio will be able to expand will depend largely on the availability of finance. It will be for the BBC to decide for itself, having regard to the money available to it from time to time out of the licence fee revenue, what priority to accord to the expansion of its local radio services. The planning of the expansion is complex. Some of the considerations which have to be taken into account are listed in paragraph 33 of the White Paper. They include the need to ensure that the most effective use is made of the available frequencies and the need to give priority to areas not at present served by any local radio station. The task of planning the expansion of local radio has been given to a working party under Home Office chairmanship on which both the BBC and the IBA are represented. The task falls into two parts. The first part—and this has already been completed—was to submit proposals for an immediate initial expansion of BBC and independent local radio with a view to restoring the impetus to the development of local radio which had inevitably been affected by the moratorium which had been called pending the Annan report and the White Paper itself. My right hon. Friend announced on 24th October that he had accepted in principle the 18 areas recommended by the working party in its first report as the loca- tions for the first of the new stations. Of these, nine, including Northampton, are to be BBC stations and nine are to be independent stations. The second part of the working party's task—and work on this is now beginning —is to plan the further expansion of both services, by stages, throughout the rest of the United Kingdom. The working party will publish reports from time to time to give interested parties opportunities to comment, in particular, on the total coverage of local radio;on the proposals for particular local radio areas and for the allocation to the BBC and the IBA of those areas in which only one or the other kind of station can be provided: and on the order in which new local radio stations might be established. The Government will reach decisions on the working party's proposals in the light of these comments and after such further consultation with the BBC and IBA as may be necessary. Coming back to the choice of stations in the initial expansion, in which the hon. Gentleman's constituency was chosen, my right hon. Friend asked the working party to submit proposals urgently, and this has naturally influenced the way in which the working party approached its task. I ask the hon. Gentleman to read the first report of the working party, which is available in the Library, since it answers many of the questions he has asked. The working party had to take into account what rate of expansion was practicable; perhaps five or six stations a year for each authority, perhaps rather more for the IBA. It had to limit its recommendations to what was needed to get the expansion started without avoidably prejudicing—by creating haphazard demands for frequencies—the eventual pattern of local radio coverage; and it had to ensure so far as possible that priority would be given to places where local radio is not at present available. In all the circumstances, the working party agreed on an initial figure of nine stations for each authority. I remind the House that the initiative in developing local radio and selecting localities suitable for local radio stations lies with the broadcasting authorities. The Government set the broad constitutional framework within which the broadcasting authorities operate, and the consent of the responsible Minister—since April 1974, the Secretary of State for the Home Department—is required for any particular local radio station. He is responsible under the provisions of the Wireless Telegraph Acts for authorising the use of all radio stations.I have read the working party report. In paragraph 19, when discussing the merits of the two, it says,
and"in the light of the foregoing"
What I am putting to the Minister this evening is that there was not proper consultation to discover what the feelings of local support were."in the light of known support."
I said earlier that the first group was set up as a matter of urgency, for the reasons I explained, but I shall come to the local voice shortly. I am sure that there will be very much more consultation with the next group, but, for the reasons I gave, the first group was set up urgently.
The 18 stations proposed for the immediate expansion were chosen from the stations having the highest priority in the plans of the two broadcasting authorities. In drawing up their lists the authorities take account of local support. Northampton featured in the BBC's first nine stations. However, the IBA excluded Northampton from the first list of nine stations. This was drawn up by the IBA and the BBC, not by the Government. The working party recognised that where only one kind of local radio might be feasible, or where only one kind of local radio might be feasible for a period of years, local communities might wish to express a preference. Given the intention, however, that as many parts of the country as practicable should ultimately have both local radio services, as I trust Northampton will have, it thought it reasonable to assume that, as regards the first stage of expansion, most people in one or other of the selected areas would prefer whichever kind of local radio was proposed to being without local radio at all. The working party recognises, however, that the problem of choice is bound to become more acute in the later stages of its work and it will be devoting attention to this in later reports. The hon. Gentleman has complained in his letter and now that the BBC does not intend to include Northampton among the first of its new radio stations to be opened and that precedence will be given instead to Barrow, Lincoln, Norwich and Taunton. The question of the timing of the introduction of stations is a matter for the broadcasting authorities, and I have already touched on the financial constraints which exist. It is hoped that the first of these new stations will be coming on the air in 1980. I can only suggest to the hon. Gentleman that if he feels that Northampton is not being accorded the preference it deserves, he should make his views known to the BBC. I am not aware of any particular factors which would give my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary reason to press the BBC to pick the Northampton station from all the others on the list for special priority. The hon. Gentleman has referred to factors such as shift work, peculiarities of television coverage, the new trading centre and the availability of consortia which in his view tend to establish Northampton as eminently suitable for a station in the independent radio network. The IBA will, no doubt, take careful note of what he has said in planning the further development of its network, but I must point out that similar factors might be advanced by many other hon. Members in respect of their own constituencies throughout the country. The fact remains that in the first stage of the expansion there were at least nine other localities where the IBA judged that the need for an independent local radio station was weightier than it was for Northampton. There are, therefore, many other disappointed hon. Members who would like to have seen their constituencies on the IBA list, and also many disappointed hon. Members whose constituencies are not on either of the two lists we are discussing. I have not so far commented on the hon. Gentleman's assertions about the direction in which the preference of the people of Northampton lies—as between BBC local radio and independent radio. But I did hear in a clear intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, North (Ms Colquhoun) that she favours the BBC kind—One letter.
She is an important representative of the whole of Northampton, North.
Will my hon. Friend accept that this is a local political storm in a teacup generated by the commercial lobby and that the Tory-controlled county council did a hypocritical turnabout in its letter of support for the hon. Member for Northampton, South (Mr. Morris) and for a commercial radio station? At one time it wrote to say that it wanted a BBC radio station. It is quite extraordinary that we should have got to the stage of wasting time in an Adjournment debate in the House.
Perhaps in the last few minutes I can unite both hon. Mem- bers by saying that both of them very strongly favour local radio in Northampton. But obviously there is a clear division of opinion as to which body provides it at the moment. I trust that in due course Northampton will be satisfied by having IBA and BBC local radio so that all the constituents throughout Northampton will have a clear choice between the two.
I trust that what I have told the hon. Gentleman has explained the background to the problems connected with setting up local radio, and that I have managed to allay some of his fears. As I have said, the immediate proposals are being pursued with urgency and the second set of proposals will be coming along as soon as possible.Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past Ten o'clock.