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Commons Chamber

Volume 959: debated on Monday 27 November 1978

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House Of Commons

Monday 27th November 1978

THE
PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

OFFICIAL REPORT

IN THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE FORTY-SEVENTH PARLIAMENT OF THE
UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND

WHICH OPENED 1st NOVEMBER. 1978

TWENTY-SEVENTH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF

HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II

THIRD VOLUME OF SESSION 1978–79

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

Prayers

[ Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Oral Answers Toquestions

Trade

General Agreement Ontariffs And Trade

2.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade what resolution he expects to the general agreement on tariffs and trade multilateral negotiations by mid-December; and what part he is playing in those negotiations.

I hope that the negotiators will be able substantially to complete their work next month, although ratification of the results by the EEC Council must wait on a satisfactory resolution of the United States countervailing duty waiver problem. I represented the United Kingdom at the Council discussion on 21st November of the EEC approach to the final stages of the negotiations and expect to play a full part in any further such discussion or other important but less formal discussions.

Hon. Members on both sides of the House will wish the Secretary of State well in his difficult role at the talks, bearing in mind the United Kingdom's dependence on the growth and increasing liberalisation of world trade. When does the right hon. Gentleman think the United States will pass a new Bill waiving the imposition of countervailing duties? Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the talks can be meaningfully concluded in Geneva before such a Bill is passed?

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his good wishes. These are indeed extremely complex and complicated negotiations, involving a wide variety of interests. They pose problems for every country. But we are seized of the great difficulty that there would be for world trade if there were a failure in the current round of negotiations.

As for the United States' internal position, we accept the assurances of the United States Administration that they will do what they can to try to resolve the problem. In line with, I think, the majority of Community countries, we are happy to see it make such progress as it can.

I cannot remember the hon. Gentleman's other point.

I asked whether the talks could be concluded before such a Bill was passed.

In this connection the United Kingdom and, I think, the majority of Community countries draw a distinction between the completion of negotiations and the conclusion of an agreement. It is the settled view of the Community that there is no question of our concluding an agreement until the Congressional problem has been solved.

I wish my right hon. Friend well in the multilateral trade negotiations, but is he aware that there is another set of trade negotiations in danger of breaking down today? Will he use his best offices to make sure that the commodity negotiations are brought to a successful conclusion?

We have been following the negotiations in Geneva very closely. Indeed, I received reports about them over the weekend. I do not think that the danger of a breakdown is quite as serious as was reported in some of the newspapers today. But, clearly, they are very difficult negotiations. They have been going on for a very long time. There requires to be flexibility on both sides of the argument, but we very much believe that it is important not only for international trade but for the maintenance of a meaningful North-South dialogue that the negotiations be brought to a conclusion.

As one of the main difficulties in these long-running negotiations concerns national subsidies to ailing or vulnerable industries, can the Secretary of State give us any guidance as to how much of the trade between developed countries is now affected by those subsidies, and what are the prospects of multilaterally reducing them?

This is an extremely difficult area of the negotiations, because it is extremely difficult to detect just what subsidies are in operation and how they affect trade. Such things as the movements of currency can be regarded as affecting world trade just as much as overt actions by Governments to support their industries. I can go no further than to say that we are examining the matter carefully. There are some actions that the United Kingdom Government take in connection with the regeneration of our industry and the development of our regional development policy that we regard as very important.

Film Industry

3.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade whether he has any immediate plans to meet representatives of the film industry.

32.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade whether he will be providing preliminary information prior to the drafting of legislation to establish a British film authority; and, if so, in what form this will be provided and when.

My right hon. Friend and I are always ready to meet representatives of the film industry. I have had discussions with the representatives of the British Film Producers Association, the Association of Independent Producers, the Cinematograph Exhibitors Association and the Association of Independent Cinemas. My right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Dell) has also met the chairman of the Interim Action Committee and some of his colleagues. I hope to make a statement at about the turn of the year regarding future legislation.

Can the Minister therefore say that there will be some legislation on the matter during this Parliament, or that there will not? We should like clarification as to whether or not there is a definite intention to legislate. This is the point that is causing the anxiety.

We certainly intend legislation in this Parliament, in the form of a National Film Finance Corporation Bill, because we are committed to ensuring that the NFFC has enough funds for the next five years, or until it is subsumed under the British film authority. We are certainly committed to ensuring that its funds do not run out in this Session.

Association Of British Travel Agents

4.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade what recent meetings he has had with the Association of British Travel Agents.

I am meeting the president and other representatives of the Association of British Travel Agents tomorrow.

When my hon. Friend has such a meeting, will he ask ABTA whether it can devise more effective ways for its members to make clear their membership of the association to customers who walk in off the street, in order to protect customers who deal with non-ABTA members and subsequently run into disputes about their holidays? Is my hon. Friend aware that a number of firms, including such firms as Odyssey Travel, trading from Oxford Street, are not ABTA members and do not advertise the fact that they are not, and it would be better if ways could be found by ABTA to have a clear and distinctive sign to encourage members of the public to notice with whom they are dealing?

I do not think that the problem arises among those who are members of ABTA. If they are members of ABTA, I am sure that they take every opportunity to advertise that fact. The trouble arises with people who are not members of ABTA. However, I suggest that if my hon. Friend has any specific problem that I can broach with ABTA when its representatives come to see me tomorrow, he should give me details of it.

Aircraft Flights (Remembrance Sunday)

5.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will seek to arrange that aircraft will not be allowed to take off from airports near built-up areas during the half-hour when outdoor services are held before the two minutes silence on Remembrance Sunday.

There are restrictions on aircraft taking off from Heathrow and Gatwick to ensure that the two minutes silence is not broken, but a prohibition on take-offs for half an hour would impose unacceptable constraints on the handling of air traffic. Arrangements at other airports are primarily a matter for the airport authorities concerned.

What about what is acceptable to people on the ground? Cannot the hon. Member show rather more respect to the quite large number of people who, for just half an hour every year, want to concentrate on remembering those who laid down their lives for the country in two world wars? For example, at Twickenham last Remembrance Sunday, a fortnight ago, 400 people were interrupted during the half-hour service nine times by aircraft taking off. Cannot he take another look at this?

I am sympathetic towards the comments of the hon. Member. However, what he suggests would lead to very great difficulties about the stacking of aircraft. Already a constraint is imposed so that there are no take-offs during the period just before and just after the two minutes silence. As for the hon. Member's comments about Twickenham, this is the first complaint that I have received. Generally speaking, over the years very few complaints on this matter have been received.

Multi-Fibre Arrangement

6.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade if he is satisfied with the operation of the multi-fibre arrangement.

11.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade if he is satisfied that all the countries involved are observing the multi-fibre arrangement.

There were bound to be some problems in the first year of operation of new and complicated arrangements, but I am satisfied that they are now operating broadly as was intended.

May I also welcome my right hon. Friend's new appointment and trust that he will show sympathy towards the problems of the textile industry? In this connection, is my right hon. Friend concerned about the present and potential imports of blankets and other textile products from Eastern Europe, Spain, Portugal and Greece? As there are to be separate quotas for the first time next year for blankets, will my right hon. Friend agree to meet a deputation from the British Blanket Manufacturers' Association, which is most concerned about the upsurge of imported blankets?

I thank my hon. Friend for his good wishes, and certainly I shall pay careful attention to the needs of the British textile industry. He will appreciate that this Government have done more than any other, especially through the multi-fibre arrangement in terms of product coverage and future growth of imports, to protect the interests of our textile industry. We have noted the position about blankets and, of course, I shall be very glad to meet a delegation.

Although I recognise what the Government have achieved in these arrangements, is not it correct that there has been a 15 per cent. increase in value terms already this year over last year? Is my right hon. Friend aware of the growing concern among all in the textile industry, many of whom were very strong supporters of the EEC, about the extension of the EEC to include countries from which further low-cost textiles will be admitted into the EEC?

Dealing with my hon. Friend's first question about the levels of imports, he will bear in mind that some of the imports are re-exports and that some are consignments which reached the country before the 1978 quota came into operation. He will also bear in mind that the MFA took as its base the 1976 levels of imports and that there was a decline in 1977, so that some increase was bound to occur under the agreement. I must emphasise that no quotas have been reached so far as we can detect, and we police these matters very vigorously.

As for other countries at present out-with the Community, no bilateral arrangements were reached with them. But arrangements were made and, where we think these have been breached, we have pursued the breaches very vigorously. As my hon. Friend will know, safeguard action has been taken against Turkey and Malta.

Has the position with regard to imports of cotton yarn and knitted shirts from Greece improved? What is the present position as regards Portugal? Have the outstanding matters been agreed? Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied generally with the enforcement arrangements?

I can confirm that we have reached agreements about textile imports from Greece, Spain and Portugal.

Since thoughts are already turning to a renewal of the MFA eventually, will the right hon. Gentleman advise the EEC that our country's national interest is very well served by a restraint on imports which has skilfully avoided any retaliation against our textile exports?

The hon. Member will know that the MFA will continue until 1982. However, the point of view which he expresses is one which the Government share completely and which we state as often as we can within the counsels of the Community.

Is there any means whereby my right hon. Friend can use the measures in the multi-fibre arrangement to deal with the problem of the fibre involvement in the tyre industry? Is he aware that continuing imports of cheap tyres from Eastern Europe and the Far East are posing a great problem, especially to crossply tyres in areas such as my constituency and the India Tyre factory? Can anything be done to prevent it?

My hon. Friend will appreciate that his question is slightly wider than the multi-fibre arrangement—indeed, it is outwith its scope. However, I know that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State has been in touch with the tyre cord manufacturers on this matter and is pursuing the very question that my hon. Friend raised.

British Airways

7.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade when he expects next to meet the chairman of British Airways.

Will my right hon. Friend remind Sir Frank McFadzean that, as the former chairman of Shell, he ought to know all about Rhodesian sanctions busting and, therefore, should take immediate steps to stop British Airways from acting against the spirit, if not the letter, of the law by remitting profits from its Salisbury ticket office to a Swiss bank account? Will the Government order an immediate inquiry into this?

My meeting with Sir Frank McFadzean will be confined to his capacity as chairman of British Airways, and I hope to have an interesting discussion with him about that matter. As for the other matter raised by my hon. Friend, I am looking at the arrangement to which he referred, and I cannot anticipate the outcome of my further investigations into it.

When the right hon. Gentleman meets the chairman, will he tell him that he is as well aware as his Department is of the way in which British Airways inhibits the sale of tickets on the sector between London and Gibraltar to the disadvantage of the people of Gibraltar and travellers from this country and, what is more, is making sure that those tickets are available to its own subsidiaries? Will the right hon. Gentleman also ask the chairman why, if his colleagues in the Ministry of Defence wish to travel on a night flight, they are charged a surcharge of £750 per flight to land at Gibraltar?

I am afraid that I cannot give specific answers to the hon. Member since I did not have notice that he intended to raise quite detailed matters concerning the operations of British Airways. Whether I raise that matter with Sir Frank McFadzean on an already full agenda is a matter that I shall have to consider further. But perhaps the hon. Member will give my Department more details of his concerns.

When my right hon. Friend sees the chairman, will he inquire whether Jewish passengers on British aircraft are still banned from landing in Syria, this being a matter that I have raised with him previously?

I have discussed this matter with my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State with responsibility for aviation, and I understand that he has been in correspondence with my hon. Friend. I would rather leave the matter on that basis, because it may be possible to reach a satisfactory outcome.

In view of the importance, particularly in these troubled times, to the United Kingdom of the air link with Northern Ireland, does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that a £70 return fare London to Belfast is appalling? Will he not therefore tell the chairman when he sees him that if he cannot cut costs and bring fares down the Minister will be obliged to support any pri- vate operator which can offer a more reasonable service?

The hon. Gentleman will know more than most that there are some additional problems in travel to and from Northern Ireland. That of fares is one with which those who travel from Glasgow and Edinburgh to London are familiar, since it is the same price. But these are matters for the Civil Aviation Authority.

When the right hon. Gentleman sees the chairman of British Airways, he will presumably discuss fare structures in Europe. Could he perhaps make a statement in the House or inform the House on some occasion fairly soon where we stand on the reduction of European fares? I think that British Airways are keen to reduce them, but where does the matter stand? As my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings (Mr. Warren) has said, fares are absurd.

There are some negotiations going on at the moment, and when a suitable opportunity occurs, I shall make a statement.

Hairdressers (Registration) Act1964

8.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will seek to repeal the Hairdressers (Registration) Act 1964.

Is the Minister aware that the Hairdressing Council set up under that Act has become a shambles, with the chairman acting in an autocratic and arbitrary way, the registrar dismissed and the police now making inquiries into the council's accounts? Since the two hon. Members who were members of that council have now resigned and there is therefore no public accountability of any kind, is it not time for that Act to be repealed and the council wound up and for us to start from scratch again?

I am not sure about starting from scratch again, but if the 1964 Act has been infringed, members of the council can of course take action through the courts: if the chairman has acted in the way alleged or if there are other improprieties, it is possible either to appoint a new chairman or to make other changes using the procedures according to the regulations under schedule 1 of the 1964 Act. I certainly see no reason to change the 1964 Act while this opportunity exists to change the situation.

Is the Minister aware that I have just had my hair cut downstairs? [HON. MEMBERS:"Not very well."] I do not think that that had anything to do with the Hairdressing Council. Do we really need the Hairdressers (Registration) Act 1964 at all?

I can certainly compliment the hon. Gentleman on the achievement of the House of Commons barber. The 1964 Act was introduced as a Private Member's Bill, not a Government Bill. The only main change made was that the mandatory regulation proposed in the Bill was changed to a voluntary one.

Merchant Shipping(Soviet Bloc Competition)

9.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade what recent discussions he has had with other EEC Ministers about the difficulties caused to British merchant shipping by unfair competition from shipping of the Soviet bloc.

22.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade when next he proposes to discuss shipping matters with his opposite number in the USSR.

33.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade what progress he can report on the measures proposed to counter the Soviet maritime threat.

The Transport Ministers Council last week adopted a decision limited to monitoring all liner activities on the trade routes from the EEC to East Africa and Central America. Regrettably there was no disposition to proceed at present with the development of counter-measures to meet unfair competition, such as the Soviet threat. I expressed the United Kingdom's disappointment and urged further consideration of this issue. I have no plans for further discussions with the Soviet Minister. There is no point in this until progress has been made in resolving some of the specific issues of concern to us.

Is the Minister aware that the House will share his disappointment that the Ministers have limited themselves to gathering further informa- tion about the unfair competition which is clearly already taking place and has been taking place for some time? Is it not likely to be the result that the shipping companies of member countries will suffer further damage in the interim before a decision is taken to act to stop this threat?

This is a point which I have made because I believe that the evidence already is overwhelming in this regard. However, colleagues in the EEC take the view that monitoring is an essential precondition of taking any defensive measures, if they find that defensive measures are called for as a result of that procedure. I think that this is a longwinded way of going about the matter.

If it is decided that further measures are necessary, what measures will the Minister recommend should be taken?

We should be ill advised at this stage to advertise to the Soviet Union the precise steps that we would want to take if we could persuade our colleagues in the EEC to recognise the threat. But we have the powers.

Will the Minister explain why the decision makes no reference to the Soviet threat? Will he accept from this side our welcome of some of the words that he has uttered in answer to this question? However, will he please explain his reference to"further consultations "? What further consultations has he in mind?

The omission of the specific Soviet threat is not a matter of our making. I have consistently tried to persuade colleagues in the EEC to use precisely those terms. The question of consultation will proceed before the next Transport Ministers Council and it will at my request cover a study—I hope I shall be able to persuade the Commission to undertake a study—of the defensive measures which need to be taken. Unless we get that right, I do not think that we have any real chance of securing an accommodation with the Soviet Union, which is what I want.

What, if anything, does the Minister's Department know of the relationship between the cartelised freight charges now being made by our shipping organisations and the actual costs to them of running their ships?

The conference system, which I think my hon. Friend is seeking to impugn, meets the approval not only of the shipowners but of the shippers whom they are intending to serve. There is a large shipper element in these discussions. If they felt that unfair advantage was being taken by the shipowners in the operation of the conference system, they would be the first to complain.

Since the Minister has described the EEC's efforts as longwinded, is there not a case for this country taking unilateral action on this matter, as the French have done, for example, over the oil measures? Is there anything in the Treaty of Rome which would prevent us from taking unilateral action?

It is not a question of the Treaty of Rome: it is a question whether such action would be useful and rational. I believe that if we did that, all that would happen is that we would expose ourselves to the blast of possible counter-measures by the Soviet Union without anybody else in Europe suffering. I simply do not believe that it is reasonable for us to adopt a unilateral design in this matter.

The Minister has already said that difficulties are being caused to our shipping industry by the Soviet bloc. He claims that it is difficult for us to take unilateral action. There is one unilateral action that we could take, and that is to cancel the Polish shipping order, which will result in dumped cut-price competition for our shipping industry and which was decided exclusively by his Government.

Uncharacteristically, the hon. Member has taken a totally irrelevant point. I am talking about the Soviet threat. Generally, when the Poles are members of conferences they adhere to the rules of conferences and there is much less difficulty in that regard. I think that the hon. Member's suggestion would promote further unemployment in the shipbuilding industry, which is a view that we on this side do not share.

Steel

10.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade what were the imports and exports of steel for the latest convenient period for which he has figures.

In the 12 months ended October 1978, 3·85 million tonnes of ingots, semi-finished and finished steel were imported and 4·16 million tonnes were exported.

Will my hon. Friend accept my congratulations because at least the figures are on the right side for the first time? However, my constituents who make steel, and who could make much more, still think that the import totals are too high. Will the Minister take into account rumours coming from British Steel that it is not satisfied with the European arrangements which are being negotiated and that there is some fiddling going on which is to our disadvantage?

I am not quite sure to what my hon. Friend refers when he says that there is some"fiddling going on which is to our disadvantage ". I can assure him that the Commission, with our support, has established a base price scheme for a wide range of sensitive steel products. Imports from third countries which are below the base price are liable to anti-dumping regulations. The Commission has also negotiated voluntary restraint arrangements with 15 main countries which export to the EEC. These arrangements have restrained the growth of imports considerably. The Commission is now negotiating for 1979. We hope that not only will these measures be maintained but that they will be extended.

In the Minister's judgment, what in the past year has been the overall effect on the import-export balance of the Davignon proposals—for the European steel industry in general and the British Steel Corporation in particular?

I cannot give a quantified answer. But there is no doubt that the Davignon proposals have introduced a measure of discipline, particularly within the EEC. That has assisted the balance of trade because there has been some restraint on the growth of imports into the EEC. There has been no significant export retaliation.

Is the Minister aware that the export of steel from this country would be facilitated if there were better access to capital goods markets within Europe? Is he aware that fabricators within Europe often get cut price steel to supply to British process plant customers at a cheaper price than British fabricators can obtain in order to sell to European customers?

That is a problem for the British Steel Corporation. I am not sure whether my hon. Friend is suggesting that there are ways in which the Government can assist. If he is, we shall be glad to examine them.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the main import penetration problem is not from outside the EEC but from inside, particularly from West Germany? Does my hon. Friend admit that we have no powers to prevent this?

I am aware that the Sheffield special steels industry has suffered badly in the past year, particularly from exports from Germany, Italy and, to some extent, France. The Secretary of State for Industry wrote to Commissioner Davignon about this. We have just had a reply. The Commissioner is now examining price practices for special steels on the basis of article 60 of the ECSC treaty and is looking at methods to improve price discipline by the harmonisation of price lists. This is not as much as we wanted but it is a helpful reply. We shall study it and reply soon.

The Minister mentioned the Sheffield steel industry. Are the Government supporting a policy of market sharing for domestic industries which are in temporary trouble, plus a minimum price which is agreed by the main producers in that industry? Several industries are now approaching the Government with such schemes which might come up against the EEC competition rules. What is the Government's policy on special industries which are in difficulty? What is the Government's position on market sharing and minimum prices?

The Commission has already established a mandatory minimum price policy for three product groups and a non-mandatory guidance price system for another five product groups in the steel industry. Our policy is to seek the extension of this policy and to ensure that special steels are brought within the ambit of this policy which, up to now, has been restricted to bulk steels.

Teesside Airport

12.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will reconsider his decision to give Teesside airport category C status.

The Government will keep the role of individual airports closely under review, but as of now I foresee a positive growth of traffic for Tees-side airport within its present status.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in the current year it is expected that the traffic at Teesside airport will increase by about 70 per cent. and that the surpluses will more than double? Will the Minister therefore pay careful attention to the increase of business passing through the airport with a view to reconsidering the decision not to give the airport category B status?

I am glad to have confirmation of the information that I have received about the prospective growth in traffic of Teesside airport. This indicates that the category C status has not inhibited growth. I adhere to the view that it is not possible for the North-East to support two category B airports.

Is the Minister aware that there will be considerable disquiet about his answer, in view of the figures mentioned by the hon. Member for Thornaby (Mr. Wrigglesworth)? Is he aware that many people who are most directly involved with the airport find the arguments for refusing to give category B status to the airport wholly unconvincing?

The hon. Member might assert that, but I hope that the evidence about growth will give the lie to the argument that a stigma attaches to category C status. In the face of the overwhelming evidence, I cannot resile from the judgment that I have made.

Companies (South Africa)

14.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade whether other EEC Governments have yet fulfilled the expectation he declared on 25th May 1978 that they would follow a reporting format for their national companies operating in South Africa similar to Annex 3 of Command Paper No. 7233.

The West German and Belgian Governments have sent the United Kingdom reporting format to their employers' organisations and the Danish Government have sent out a reporting instruction based upon the United Kingdom White Paper which was at the same time enclosed for information.

We shall continue to impress upon our partners in the Nine our strong views in favour of a common reporting format.

Does the Secretary of State accept that, although it is important that there should be a steady improvement in the working conditions of black people in South Africa, it is also important that the British Government do nothing to put British companies in South Africa at a disadvantage compared with their international competitors?

We believe that the code takes account of the realities of the situation in a practical way. If it were more widely adopted we would make progress. The United Kingdom has taken a useful lead in this matter.

Will my right hon. Friend ensure not only that all the EEC Governments accede to the code of conduct but that they take active steps to ensure that it is operated? Does he agree that while the evil of apartheid is allowed to continue it is essential that Britain should be seen not to be contributing towards making circumstances even worse for the black workers of South Africa?

I agree with the necessity of seeing practical results. That is why we did not leave the matter on the basis of accord but sought to achieve agreement on a reporting format. The United Kingdom has taken a lead. We shall continue to press our views upon the Nine. We have commended the formula to all the OECD countries. We shall continue to do so.

Tourism Projects

15.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade whether he will now take steps to amend the guidelines applicable to section 4 of the Development of Tourism Act 1969 so that aid can be made available nationally to suitable projects, rather than remain restricted to development areas only.

29.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade what plans he has to extend the areas of the United Kingdom eligible for financial assistance under section 4 of the Development of Tourism Act; and if he will make a statement.

As my right hon. Friend announced in a Written Answer on 22nd November, the Government have decided to make this assistance available in future in intermediate areas as well as development and special development areas to which it had previously been confined. We shall review the eligible areas in two or three years' time.

Is the Minister aware that judging from that answer constituencies such as mine, which are dependent on the tourist industry, will not receive the assistance to which they are entitled? Is he aware that the Isle of Wight is trying to extend its season and that it needs substantial financial input to improve facilities? Other parts of the country such as North Wales are receiving substantial sums. Is it not time that the scheme was operated on a countrywide basis rather than the money going to the intermediate and development areas?

The hon. Member is wrong in his original premise. About two-thirds of the Government's tourism budget is spent across the whole country. It is not limited to development and intermediate areas. We are talking here about the bricks and mortar provided for in section 4 of the 1969 Act. For that the budget is £2 million to be paid in the next year to the development areas. To provide the extra £1½ it seemed best to restrict the allocation to the intermediate areas otherwise the butter would be spread too thinly.

Does the Minister appreciate that there are different criteria for helping the tourist industry? Why is he so much against the South of England which could make a contribution if it were to receive help from the Government?

We are not against assisting the South of England. Promotional expenditure is not regionally limited. It goes to the whole country. Considerable benefit is derived from that. We have to decide how a relatively small amount of assistance for building and projects can be best spent. Our view is that it should be limited to those areas which have considerable unexploited tourist potential and a high unemployment level.

Is the Minister aware that in the Aberdeen area there is a considerable welcome for the proposal to extend tourism assistance to intermediate areas, a move that is long overdue? What estimate has the Minister made of the additional employment what will be created by this decision?

I cannot give a direct answer to that question because it will depend upon the way in which the money is spent. I estimate, however, that it will involve at least a few hundred new jobs.

Manufactured Imports

16.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade what proportion of United Kingdom imports consisted of manufactured goods during the latest 12-month period for which figures are available; and what was the corresponding proportion five years ago.

In the 12 months ended October 1978, imports of manufactured goods accounted for 63 per cent. by value of our total imports, compared with a figure of 56 per cent. for the year 1973.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his answer, but does he not agree that its meaning is catastrophic for the British economy? Is he aware that much of the increase in the importation of manufactured goods arises from decisions by large multinational companies to import manufactured goods into Britain as a matter of company policy? Is he further aware that this has nothing to do with the operation of any alleged laws of free trade? Does he agree, therefore, that this points to the urgent need for planning agreements which incorporate international trading policy?

I do not believe that the situation is as catastrophic as my hon. Friend suggests. It probably represents a structural change in the pattern of our imports which brings the level of imports of manufactures in the United Kingdom more or less into line with the position in Germany, France and the United States. If anything, the import propensity for manufactured goods has been higher in those countries since 1973.

On the second part of the question, I entirely agree with my hon. Friend and I strongly urge the expansion of planning agreements to ensure that the multinational companies and the nation achieve their objectives.

Does the Minister understand that the figures he has quoted illustrating the relative decline of manufacturing industry in the past four years have particularly damaging consequences for jobs and living standards in the West Midlands where Coventry, Birmingham and the Black Country are so heavily dependent on this kind of industry? Does he realise that the latest increase in the minimum lending rate will worsen the situation in that it will lead to less vital investment being made in the future?

The minimum lending rate is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In no sense did the figures I gave suggest that there had necessarily been a relative decline in manufacturing. Although there has been an increase in the level of manufactured imports, that was more or less matched by an increase in the level of manufactured exports. Last year our manufactured exports grew by 8 per cent., which was twice the increase in world trade.

Vehicle Bulbs

17.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will institute a sample quality control on vehicle bulbs for which import licences have been requested and refuse such licences when the quality is inferior to that of British-produced bulbs.

As vehicle bulbs may be freely imported into the United Kingdom without the need for importers to obtain individual import licences, I receive no requests for licences for these products.

Will my hon. Friend look at the serious situation which has arisen in British industry, particularly in my constituency, as a result of the flood of bulbs from Korea and Taiwan which could lead to unemployment? Even more important, will my hon. Friend consider the extent to which the inferior quality of the light from these bulbs makes road accidents more likely?

We have received no requests from the Lighting Industry Federation for restrictions on these imports. It has tried to assemble a European antidumping investigation about domestic light bulbs but not about vehicle light bulbs. The safety aspect to which my hon. Friend referred is a matter for the Department of Transport, which is considering a request for the provisions of EEC regulation No. 37, which provides for acceptable standards of vehicle bulbs in the United Kingdom, to be made mandatory.

Marine Oil Pollution

18.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade how the French proposals for dealing with oil pollution at sea differ from those which his Department currently endorses; and if he will make a statement.

Both the United Kingdom and the French contingency arrangements for dealing with oil spills at sea are based primarily on the use of dispersants sprayed from ships.

Is the Minister aware that the French have taken action in their Parliament which gives their Government far wider powers than anything proposed by the British Government, even in the Merchant Shipping Bill? Is he further aware that many people would prefer that example to be followed in this country even if, as I understand, the Minister believes that some of the French action may be hard to uphold in the international courts, rather than to have to argue about the pollution which may occur if strong parliamentary action in the form of preventive measures is not taken soon?

It is a question always of balancing the need to buttress the authority of IMCO, the United Nations agency which deals with these matters, with our requirements. I feel we shall achieve that as a result of enacting the Merchant Shipping Bill, and as a result of the action that we are considering with our EEC colleagues. The hon. Member will bear in mind the increase in port state authority that has been conferred by the memorandum of understanding of the North Sea States.

Has the Minister's attention been drawn to Le Journal Officiel de la Republique Francaise of 4th August where it is shown that a ministerial committee for the sea has been created, reporting directly to the President, and composed of—so that I may get it correct I shall quote—

" the Minister of the Interior "—

Order. Quotations are not permitted in the course of Questions. Perhaps the hon. Member will quickly memorise it.

For the convenience of the House, Mr. Speaker, I shall refer only to notes, and not quote. The committee is composed of the Minister of the Interior, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Minister of Defence, the Minister of Economics, the Minister of the Budget, the Minister of Trade, the Minister of the Environment and Ministers concerned with coastal matters. Would it not make a great deal of sense if the British Government took a leaf from the French book and set up a ministerial committee of this sort? The first action of the French committee was to impose a massive fine on the operators of the"Amoco Cadiz ". Is he aware that that is having a major effect on the way that oil companies operate their tankers?

The hon. Member should read more widely. He ought to recognise that the French judicial process is quite different from ours. It involves a different means of imposing fines. There is already a wide measure of coordination between Ministers in this Government. That was exemplified in the degree of co-ordination that existed between myself and my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Wales and officials representing a wide variety of other Departments and interests in the"Christos Bitas"incident.

26.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade whether he is satisfied with the extent of the precautions to minimise the pollution that might occur following a major oil spillage in the Channel.

31.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade whether he will make a statement about the Government's proposals to reduce the risk of oil pollution on shore from tankers operating near the coasts of the United Kingdom.

Extensive preparations have been made to deal with oil spills in the Channel, as in the waters around the rest of our coastline. We announced the results of our review of those arrangements on 2nd August, and the appointment of Rear-Admiral Stacey as the first director of our new marine pollution control unit on 20th November. The follow-up work to that review is well advanced. The Government remain determined to develop arrangements that are as effective as possible in mitigating pollution.

Is the Minister aware that there is a great deal of public concern about the apparent failure of the arrangements that have been undertaken so far? In an earlier answer he referred to concentrating on dispersants. Would it not be advisable to give more attention to the development of means of containing and recovering oil spilled at sea?

If the hon. Member catches your eye, Mr. Speaker, he will be able to develop his arguments in the debate which is to follow. I am aware of continuing public concern. We do our best to allay that concern. The Warren Spring laboratory devotes a considerable amount of its activities to investigating processes for recovery and containment. As yet no absolutely suitable method of recovery has been devised, but progress is being made.

Is the Minister aware that most people are concerned about what action is to be taken to prevent this kind of event from recurring? They also wish to know what sanctions will be incurred by those who could be guilty of negligence, because these disasters damage the coasts and wild life of our nation, and cause a great many people to contribute money to clear much of the filth which has been created around our coasts. What measures will the Government take to prevent these incidents from arising rather than merely trying to minimise their effects?

I suggest that my hon. Friend listens to the speech which is to be made very shortly on this subject by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Wales.

Several Hon. Members rose

I shall call the two hon. Gentlemen who have a constituency interest in this Question. I call first Mr. Adley.

Does the Minister accept that the Warren Spring technology has been heavily based on dispersants, and that there is a need to concentrate more on other measures? Is he satisfied that the effort which Warren Spring is putting into its own technology is the best way of proceeding when it appears to be ignoring other similar technology which has the advantage of being able to be lifted into various places by helicopter, whereas the Warren Spring technology appears to depend entirely on fixed ship activity, which relies on the hope that the ship is in the right place at the right time?

I do not regard that as a fair criticism of the activities of Warren Spring. There are severe limitations on the use of helicopters for carrying this kind of heavy equipment. No doubt the hon. Gentleman will be able to pursue these matters further in the debate that is to follow.

Is the Minister aware that the most important matter is the prevention of such accidents? Are there enough pilots to go round to make pilotage compulsory on tankers in most of the areas around the British coasts?

There is a problem about compulsory pilotage. In order to secure an adequate number of pilots, one would have to diminish the number of people serving on the bridge of our merchant vessels. That would not be a satisfactory arrangement. There are a number of other technical problems. I am not satisfied that deep sea pilotage represents a panacea, as a number of hon. Members, including the hon. Gentleman, seem to think.

Coastguard Services (Dorset)

20.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade what plans he has to run down the coastguard services at Swanage and St. Aldhelm's Head; and for what reasons.

I have no plans to run down these services, but, consistent with the general policy of increasing VHF coverage in preference to the much less effective visual watch, I propose to make greater use of auxiliary coastguard at these two stations.

I thank the Minister for his sensible reply which will counteract local rumour.

Air Services (Bermuda Agreement)

21.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade if he has received any requests from the United States Government for any amendments to the Bermuda agreement on air services.

The United States has not made any specific requests for amendments to the Bermuda 2 air services agreement. However, during air service talks in Washington earlier this month it was agreed, in accordance with annex 4 of the agreement, to continue negotiations with a view to concluding a more liberal agreement for cargo services. Further talks on this subject have been arranged for mid-December in London.

Apart from the question of cargo services, has the Minister noticed the considerable criticism which has emanated from United States Government-inspired sources of the Bermuda 2 agreement? Are the Government still completely wedded to their policies of limiting the number of United States"gateway"cities, and of single designation, except for a few specific routes, for British carriers?

I am not unaware of American criticisms about Bermuda 2, which goes to show that, by and large, we probably got a pretty good deal. Basically, what the deal has achieved is to give British carriers added opportunities. I am most anxious to maintain this. Nothing is totally immutable. We shall listen to reasonable criticism and try to reach reasonable accords. The basic need to protect the interests of British carriers is paramount.

Employee Participation

23.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will ensure that in any proposals which he may make to bring about employee participation in industry all employees are given equal rights.

The Government's proposals are contained in the White Paper Cmnd. 7231, on which consultations are in process.

Before giving unions the right to nominate people to sit on boards, would it not be advisable to ensure that proper democratic procedures applied within the unions, including the elementary safeguard of a secret ballot for election to office?

That is a quite different matter. The experience of the Tory Party in legislating in that general area is not one which would encourage others to do so.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that many employees of Times Newspapers Limited allege that efforts are being made by the management to secure fundamental changes in working practices under duress? Will the Secretary of State say what consultation there has been between himself and the management of Times Newspapers Limited? Further, will he intervene in this dispute to avoid the suspension of publication as from midnight on Thursday, and so allow proper negotiations to proceed?

That supplementary question is a little wide of Cmnd 7231. The Government are watching the position at Times Newspapers closely. We have no plans to intervene.

Motor Vehicle Imports

25.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade what proportion of the British car market was met by imported vehicles during the last month for which figures are available.

Imported vehicles accounted for 51·7 per cent. of the British car market in October 1978, according to figures published by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders.

Will my hon. Friend confirm, or at least consider the proposition, that changes in currency values may not by any means have been adequately reflected in the prices of motor vehicles imported from certain foreign producers? If this is so, is it not the case that this is scarcely compatible with the principle of fair competition?

I think that my hon. Friend is suggesting that there may be dumping by some countries. We have had some representations about this and have examined the evidence. If my hon. Friend has further evidence, I hope that he will produce it.

Is the Minister aware of the correlation between increased imports and strikes at Ford? Can he tell us whether the figures for that month were in any way boosted by the Ford strike? Has he formed any estimate of any further increase in imports which will be likely as a result of Government action contemplated against the company, which has been seeking to carry out Government policy?

The higher import figures mainly reflect increased imports by the American multinationals in the United Kingdom, which partly reflect the industrial situation—but not wholly. The level of imports by those companies is high, although I appreciate that, for example, with Ford, a large number of those imported cars have British components. We look to increased British production in future by those companies.

Is my hon. Friend aware that those figures will cause great concern and alarm throughout the West Midlands and will reflect adversely upon the steel industry and all manufacturers of component parts? In view of my hon. Friend's earlier reply concerning the agreement on imported steels, does he not think that it is high time that we sought an agreement to control the number of cars and heavy vehicles being imported? Further, is it not about time that we received a reply to this question which said more than that there would be retaliation by foreign manufacturers?

About 70 per cent. of our car imports are from the EEC and we are precluded, under the Treaty of Rome, from taking restrictive action against them.

As for the remainder, the largest supplier is Japan. Here we have taken action. First there have been no direct imports of heavy commercial vehicles. It is too early to say with certainty, but it is possible that the number of cars and light commercial vehicles entering the country from Japan this year will be below the 1977 level of shipments. To that extent, it seems as though the Government's action in respect of those imports could be successful.

Which of the major United Kingdom car producers is in favour of the so-called voluntary restraint on the export of cars from Japan to the United Kingdom?

There have been full discussions with the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders by the Government during all the negotiations that they have held with the Japanese. This is not an inter-governmental agreement: it is an inter-industry understanding, which was clarified by the Government in March this year. It had the full backing of the British manufacturers.

Clergy (Stipends)

52.

asked the hon. Member for Kingswood (Mr. Walker), as representing the Church Commissioners, what is the attitude of the Church Commissioners to a maximum 5 per cent salary increase for the clergy.

The Church Commissioners would regard a maximum 5 per cent. stipend increase for the clergy in 1979 as altogether inadequate since clergy stipends are currently up to £1,000 per annum—or 30 per cent.—below what, on any reasonable assessment, they ought to be.

Will my hon. Friend tell the Church Commissioners that many of us think that the clergy, especially those on low pay, fully deserve the reported increases of pay of up to 20 per cent.? Is he aware that we believe that the Government as an employer ought to follow the good example of the Church in this matter by arranging for similar increases for low-paid workers in the public sector, instead of handing out massive 40 per cent. increases for overpaid people such as judges, admirals, Army officers, top officials and chairmen of the nationalised industries?

What my hon. Friend must bear in mind is that the increases proposed for the clergy in 1979 will be financed mainly from voluntary giving and cannot give rise to price increases.

Is the hon. Member aware that the clergy should not be treated as a salaried bureaucracy? Does he agree that all of this paraphernalia about the 5 per cent. is quite unsuited, and damaging, to the parson's freehold?

The recommended national minimum stipend in 1979 for clergymen of incumbent status is £3,300. The dioceses have been urged, if it is at all possible, to establish a minimum of between £3,500 and £3,800.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that some recent rent increases of 120 per cent. are in no way voluntary? Will he venture a view about whether those increases are more in conflict with the Government's 5 per cent. policy or the principles of Christian teaching? Would he care to suggest what sanctions might effectively be taken against the Church Commissioners, by the Government or the Almighty, to curb their avarice?

I can only reiterate that the whole of the increases will be financed by voluntary giving, and that they cannot give rise to inflation.

" The Times"Newspaper

The hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Madden) during Question Time sent me a note saying that he would seek to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 to discuss the situation relating to The Times newspaper. I am afraid that I cannot allow him to move such a motion because the facts were known well before 12 noon. The hon. Gentleman raised the matter in his supplementary question, but if I were to allow him to do so now, it would be stretching the rules in such a way that they would no longer have significance.

Business Of The House(Eec Documents)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will know that on Thursday my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council announced the business for this week and said that the subject of oil pollution was to be debated today. However, we see listed on today's Order Paper, for the first time, two EEC documents—R/1004/78 and R/ 1315/78. I understand that in taking this action the Lord President intends to discharge the obligation to the House laid upon him by the Scrutiny Committee to debate the matter.

It may be that since document R/1004 deals with marine pollution arising from the carriage of oil from the"Amoco Cadiz"and the action taken by the Community, and as document R/1315 deals with matters which may have been ratified already by Her Majesty's Government, this is a reasonable thing to do. But I hope that it will be possible for the Lord President, on a point of order, to explain why this business was not announced last Thursday, whether he intends to pursue this practice and whether he will give an undertaking about future changes of business at short notice.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons
(Mr. Michael Foot)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. If I were always to answer points of order of this nature, I am sure that you would be the first to call me to order—and if you did not do so I might well call myself to order. It is true that the proposals for the business for today were put down at a late stage last week and were decided at a late stage then. That was why reference to these documents was not made in last Thursday's Business Statement. I assure the House that there is no intention of introducing any innovation on that account.

Moreover, the Scrutiny Committee's recommendation on these matters was that they should be further considered by the House in the course of a future debate on marine pollution arising from the carriage of oil at sea. That was why the matter arose in this case. The Scrutiny Committee went on to say that in its view such consideration need not delay adoption by the Council. Therefore, it would not make any difference to the rights of the House as suggested by the Scrutiny Committee. I am sure that my hon. Friend will accept that explanation, but I have taken account of his remarks. We seek to abide by the general understandings about the recommendations of the Scrutiny Committee and the way in which they should be dealt with by the House.

European Communitycouncil Meeting (Fisheries)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I seek your guidance on an important matter.

Last Thursday and Friday an important meeting was held in Brussels on the subject of EEC fisheries policy. This was a major meeting, and reports in the press on Friday and Saturday said that there were major disagreements at the meeting. Therefore, I was approached by many constituents at the weekend asking me to discover from the Government what had happened and what the Government proposed to do about it. I confidently expected the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to make a statement today so that he could be questioned on the matter. Will you tell the House whether the right hon. Gentleman made an application to you or whether he intends to make a statement tomorrow? Ministers are constantly flouting their responsibility to the House and are in contempt in not reporting these meetings back to the House. I seek your support and guidance in this matter.

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not discourteous to hon. Members in this matter of fisheries policy, a subject which concerns hon. Members of both sides of the House, that the Minister has not come to the House today to make a statement on the failure of these negotiations? Is not the urgency of the matter underlined by the fact that a summit meeting is about to take place at which this subject may be discussed? Since we are unable to question the Minis- ter, is there anything that you can do to assist the House so that, if there is a statement, we can at least ask the Minister questions?

I have never yet told a Minister that he cannot make a statement to the House. I think that a Minister would be very surprised if I were to attempt to do so.

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Since my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House is now present, would he care to make some comment on this matter? Is he aware—

Order. Will the hon. Gentleman at least try to make his comment sound something like a point of order? That would be very helpful for my self-respect.

I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker. Are you aware that the Minister of Agriculture met the all-party fisheries committee last week and left us in no doubt that he was going to Brussels to fight for the fishing industry? Are you also aware, Sir, that we are all in despair because we have not had any statement on this matter today? Even worse, we are doubly disappointed that the Germans have dragged their domestic policy into this issue. If my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has seen the newspaper reports on this subject, I beg him to do something to remedy the situation.

Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. May one convey to the Leader of the House, through you, Sir, that the desire to have such a statement comes from all Members of the House, whatever their views on the European Community may be?

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons
(Mr. Michael Foot)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker, which, I submit, is not a point of order, though none the less—

Order. I had intended to tell the Lord President earlier that I would take account of what he said, but he would be better advised not openly to indicate his feelings on the matter.

I accept your rebuke, Mr. Speaker, and I certainly take account of what has been said on the subject in all parts of the House. Perhaps I could add —I hope that I am still in order, if that is the proper way to describe it—that I am sure that no one on either side of the House would say that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food was ever backward in taking account of the opinions of the House. I hope that that is taken into account by the House as well. I shall certainly take account of what has been said on this subject in all parts of the House.

Before we leave this matter, I may say that there are times when, in the interests of the House—or, at least, when I think that it is in the interests of the House—my interpretation of what is a point of order is a little more elastic. That is all that has happened today.

Second Church Estatescommissioner

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I apologise for not giving you or my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Mr. Walker) notice of this matter, but it arose only at 3.25 this afternoon. You will have noted that when answering for the Church Commissioners at Question Time today my hon. Friend sat in an unaccustomed place on these Benches. The significance of that lies not in where he sits, but I believe that there is a convention that a member of the Government is not usually appointed by the House to act as the person responsible in the House for Questions concerning the business of the Church Commissioners.

I would not normally have sought to question this, but you, Mr. Speaker, and the House will be aware that in recent times certain actions and declarations by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister have suggested that the role of Parliamentary Private Secretary to a Minister is rather different from that which many of us had supposed. If my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood, by virtue of being a PPS, is now a member of the Government—[HON. MEMBERS:"No."]—it not inappropriate that he should continue to answer Questions for the Church Commissioners? I put that to you, Mr. Speaker, because you will know that I had considerable correspondence with yourself and with my right hon. Friend the Lord President and others seeking to establish that the Government are not responsible for the Church Commissioners and that this is entirely the responsibility of a Back-Bench Member.

I should be grateful, Mr. Speaker, if you would look into this matter and advise the House.

In theory, any hon. Member is allowed to sit where he likes in the Chamber, but there are customs which dictate where we sit. There was nothing at all by way of breach of order in the hon. Member for Kingswood (Mr. Walker) answering on behalf of the Church Commissioners where he did. Bearing in mind that there is High Church and Low Church, I think that he has come a little lower.

Business Of The House

Ordered,

That, at this day's sitting, the motion in the name of the Prime Minister for the Adjournment of the House may be proceeded with after Ten o'clock, though opposed, for a period equal to that spent on the Private Business set down for consideration at Seven o'clock by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means.—[ Mr. Jim Marshall.]

Oil Spillage

[ Commission documents: R/1004/78, R1315/78.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[ Mr. Jim Marshall.]

3.44 p.m.

I think that I should carry the House with me were I to say that the awareness of the problems resulting from oil spillage has grown rapidly in recent years—an awareness regrettably fuelled by experiences around our shores. As members of an island community, most of us find our way to our shores in the course of a year, and the too frequent presence of oil is a factor that we could well do without.

In recent weeks we have experienced in Wales two simultaneous examples of serious oil spillage. When the"Christos Bitas"ran on to the Hats and Barrels rocks, about 14 miles off the Dyfed coast, there were the makings of a major catastrophe.

Fortunately the worst did not occur. The skill and effort of a large number of people, swiftly applied, were successful in keeping the ship afloat while 32,000 tons of oil were pumped out of her. The quantity of oil that reached the shore was limited to amounts that could be dealt with without too much difficulty by the resources available to the local authorities. Even so, there was a tragic loss of bird life and seals. I pay tribute to all those who contributed to the success of this operation. They were, I think, greatly encouraged by the support which they received from many people in the area and did what they could by deed and word in support. To all who were involved in the efforts that were put in I express my thanks—to officers of the Department of Trade, local authorities, a whole host of organisations, and the local Member of Parliament, the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Edwards), to whom I wish in particular to express thanks for his support.

At the same time, Gwynedd was experiencing a separate incident of pollution, resulting from a spillage of oil at the Anglesey marine terminal. These events, of course, were preceded by the major incidents of the"Amoco Cadiz " and the"Eleni V ", which form, as it were, a backcloth to this debate.

These tragedies give us vivid warning of the environmental disasters that can occur and which have to be guarded against. The first need is to see, by tightening up on preventive measures at national and international level, that they do not occur. I shall deal with that in a moment. If they do occur, and if oil comes ashore in large quantities it has to be dealt with.

We were particularly concerned in Dyfed with the possible effect on the tourist trade and with the effects on a number of ecologically sensitive sites of importance to sea birds and seals, and on a national park. Some of the most beautiful and popular beaches in Wales. which attract many thousands of visitors who contribute much to the local economy, were under threat. Happily, I can give a firm assurance that the beaches are as attractive as ever.

It is not, however, only the tourist industry which suffers. All industry which depends on a wholesome sea and shore is at risk. The problem cannot always, moreover, be confined to the coast. Cleaning up pollution on the beaches means that oil and oily waste which cannot be dealt with on the spot have to be taken to places where they can be dumped either until nature completes the disposal process or until they can be treated and, in the case of beach material, returned to the beaches. It is essential that these places should not themselves become sources of pollution and, in particular, should not affect the wholesomeness of local water supplies.

Some of us represent communities too well aware of the price of coal. Oil, I fear, has its price, too. While it is undoubtedly one of the very foundations of our way of life, we must strive to contain its harmful and unpleasant effects. We have heard over the weekend of the sad fatalities in the diving bell in the North Sea, and I am sure the whole House will join me in conveying heartfelt sympathy to the bereaved.

Public attention focuses on oil that is discharged into the sea from ships, but I should begin by reminding the House that this is not the only, or even the major, source from which oil enters the oceans of the world. Perhaps the most reliable estimates in this field are those prepared by the American Academy of Sciences in 1973. These suggest that shipping then accounted for perhaps one-third of the total input of petroleum hydrocarbons.

I now turn to the second broad category of discharges of oil into the sea. These are the accidental discharges, and they represent but a part, and the smaller part, of the totality of oil that is discharged. Our primary concern must be, and is, to prevent accidents happening in the first place. The action that the Government have taken to this end would in itself provide subject matter for a lengthy speech, so I shall confine my remarks as briefly as I can.

No country has devoted more time and effort than has Britain over the years, both nationally and internationally, to measures to protect the safety and well-being of ships and those who go to sea. For many years British merchant shipping legislation served as the model for much of the world and Britain convened the international diplomatic conferences.

The Intergovermental Martime Consultative Organisation, the only specialised agency of the United Nations in London, is now the primary international forum on maritime matters, and it is no accident that it is based here. We can take pride in our record over the years and in our standing in the international community, and the Government are resolved that this long and honourable tradition will be maintained, and if possible, enhanced, in the future.

However, I ask the House to face some harsh realities, as the Government have done.

First, it is a self-evident proposition that men and machines are fallible. That means that despite our best endeavours, those of the international community, of responsible shipping companies, and of very many masters, officers and crew—for let us not forget that there is a large measure of common purpose in the pursuit of safety—laden tankers will continue to be involved in accidents and oil will continue to be spilled.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman intend to deal with the issue that his ministerial colleague did not deal with, namely, the steps that the French have taken? Will he be telling us what the French have done and why the British Government are unwilling to take action in this Parliament when the French have taken action in their Parliament?

I am aware of the points that the hon. Gentleman has made and the differences in our approach. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State will deal with those matters if he catches the eye of the Chair. My hon. Friend will compare and contrast, I hope, the common purpose of both countries in the prevention of these accidents at the earliest opportunity. I concede that the approaches are somewhat different. However, the purpose is common.

Experience shows that the generality of spills are measured in tens, hundreds or thousands of tons of oil, but from time to time there will be spills to be measured in tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of tons of oil. The House will need no reminding of the stranding of the"Torrey Canyon"in 1967 or the stranding of the"Amoco Cadiz"earlier this year.

The second harsh reality that I ask the House to face is that if there is one of these abnormally large spills near our coasts, in the present state of technology and for the foreseeable future we must expect pollution of our shores. The quantities of oil involved are so great that neither we nor anyone else can make any arrangements that will prevent that happening. As I have already said, that risk is part of the price that we pay for our modern way of life and its dependence on the use of oil, and was an important factor underlying our decision to review the contingency arrangements for beach cleaning following an oil spill.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman has referred to the United Kingdom's high standard of legislation over a number of years. Does he not agree that in the past 20 years or so successive Governments have failed to acknowledge the tremendous growth of tankerage not only on the high seas but in the estuaries and rivers of this country? Does he accept that the Government—especially the Department of Trade—have never tried to appreciate, from information given by the international oil companies, the tremendous range of oil products that are now carried? Will he say precisely what measures he intends to introduce to try to prevent accidents, whether at sea or in estuaries?

If I had been allowed to proceed with my speech I should have dealt with some of the matters that the hon. Gentleman raised. It would be an extremely lengthy speech if I were to go through the whole range of Government activity, even over the past 20 years. I do not accept that the Department of Trade has not been fully cognisant of the major problem along our shores. I am saying that with the present state of knowledge we can deal with a whole range of spillages, but that from time to time there are abnormally large spillages, which, in the ordinary course of events, we are not able to deal with given the present state of technology, or are able to deal with only, perhaps, with an enormous range of resources. That is the proposition that I was seeking to put to the House.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept that, by the same token as these extraordinary spillages will cause pollution on our shores—which is excusable because of the volume of the spillage—the small spillages, such as the 100-ton spillage that occurred from the offshore oil terminal at Amlwch and affected a significant part of my constituency, are far less excusable, because there is every opportunity for the Government and all the authorities involved to ensure that such terminals are absolutely foolproof and safe?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will wish to make a speech on that very issue if he catches the eye of the Chair. I look forward to listening to it. I do not regard any of the spillages as excusable. I was putting to the House the fact that with the present state of knowledge and the available resources it is not possible to deal with all spillages. I was referring to the larger spillages, as was the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Macfarlane).

I hope that I shall be allowed to get on with what I want to say. I have a great deal of ground to cover and I know that many hon. Members will want to catch the eye of the Chair to express their constituency interests, as I am sure will the hon. Member for Conway (Mr. Roberts).

I turn to contingency measures. The fact that we cannot prevent extensive coastal pollution following an abnormally large spill does not mean that we should give up hope of dealing effectively with the generality of spills, which are of more modest dimention, or of mitigating the effect of large ones. We do not go away because there is a large spill and we cannot deal with it wholly. On the contrary, the Government are determined to make the arrangements for dealing with such situations as effective as possible.

That is a matter to which we have devoted considerable care and attention over a period. About two years ago we published a report on oil spills and cleanup measures under the title"Accidental Oil Pollution of the Sea ". We announced our decisions in the slimmer of 1977. Immediately after the"Amoco Cadiz"disaster, we set in hand a further careful review of our contingency measures, which we published at the beginning of August. At the same time, my right hon. Friend the then Secretary of State for Trade informed the House of the Government's conclusions and decisions.

The present broad allocation of responsibilities has been confirmed on each occasion. That is based on the fact that oil spills occur relatively infrequently along any particular stretch of coastline and that it therefore makes good sense to make full use of organisations and expertise that exist for other purposes. Accordingly, the Department of Trade is responsible for cleaning oil inshore and offshore.

The Department of Trade's marine survey organisation located in our major ports is staffed to a large extent by former merchant navy officers well experienced in seagoing operations. Her Majesty's coastguard is also readily available with a communications network. The Department's plans and practical measures to fight pollution at sea are based largely on the use of dispersants of only a very small fraction of the toxicity of those used at the time of the"Torrey Canyon"disaster.

In each district tugs and other vessels have been identified, which can be fitted with spraying equipment and deployed at short notice. This was done notably quickly in the case of the"Christos Bitas"operation, when 66 vessels in all were deployed, of which 48 were engaged in anti-pollution operations.

Should the district require more resources, it can call for assistance from other districts or from the Ministry of Defence and the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries in Scotland, which can supply patrol vessels, or from the United Kingdom Offshore Operators' Association, which has stockpiles of spraying equipment and dispersant at the major ports serving the offshore oil and gas fields. The Ministry of Defence also normally supplies a command ship, from which a marine surveyor will direct spraying operations at sea, as well as helicopters or fixed-wing aircraft for aerial surveillance.

While tactical decisions on oil clearance operations at sea can be made locally, certain decisions, which involve wider or international considerations, have to be made centrally, with the involvement of Ministers. The Department of Trade therefore maintains a marine emergency information room in London, which serves as a focal point for collecting the information used for briefing Ministers and keeping the rest of Whitehall in touch with developments.

The contingency arrangements also have an international dimension. The 1969 Bonn agreement for co-operation in dealing with pollution of the North Sea by oil—which also covers the Channel—provides for the exchange of information between the eight parties, including the United Kingdom, about oil slicks which are likely to affect other member countries. There are, of course, special contingency plans between Britain and France for dealing with any disaster in the Channel.

As I have said, the local authorities are responsible for dealing with oil spills close inshore and onshore. They have substantial resources of men, vehicles and mechanical equipment for their other functions, which can be used for oil clearance, as well as specialised equipment for this purpose.

The Government announced in the review into contingency measures to deal with oil pollution that a separate study is being undertaken, in conjunction with local authorities, of the arrangements for dealing with oil which comes ashore. We have been taking every opportunity of drawing on the experiences gained by the French Government as a result of the massive land pollution problems caused by the terrible"Amoco Cadiz"disaster of March 1978, when, of course, we were engaged with them as allies in the fight at sea, and from the"Eleni V"incident.

We have this year faced undoubtedly major challenges. Oil pollution incidents present complex and difficult problems, and each is also apt to present novel features. For example, getting equipment to the rockbound beaches of Wales is of necessity different from getting it to the flatter sands of East Anglia.

I thought it important, as soon as the"Christos Bitas"incident was over, to gather as much material as possible for this study from those who had been concerned—

Because—without spelling it out in child's language—I thought that it was right, immediately the"Christos Bitas"incident occurred, and within a matter of weeks, before people forgot exactly what happened, to draw together all the local authorities, the county councils in North Wales and South Wales, the Devon county council and all other organisations, so that we could immediately recount what exactly had happened, what suggestions could be made for improvements and what should be done before people forgot.

Since the"Torrey Canyon"incident, the report of the Select Committee, of which the right hon. and learned Member and I were both members, has been available to the Government. We warned the Government in that report that this was inevitably going to happen. There is no party point about this. It is so obvious.

I was dealing with the point made by the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam. He asked me why I did not call a conference on the"Christos Bitas"incident before it occurred. It could not be held before. That is a simple proposition, which is self-evident. But what is important is that there is a difference in each of these disasters, and the arrangements necessary to deal with them have to be different. When one can learn from each of them, certainly I would be the first to agree that one should collate that experience and adapt it for a possible, regrettable and unfortunate future occurrence. However, I repeat that one cannot, in the present state of knowledge, deal with every one of these contingencies if a very large amount of oil conies ashore within a very short period. I should have thought that that, again, was a self-evident proposition, from the state of knowledge that we have.

I should have thought that the House would agree readily that it was a good thing to have a conference of all those who were involved in order to see what could be learned—not months afterwards, and not years, and not dealing with evidence related, perhaps, at second or third hand but hearing immediately from the people concerned of what action was taken and what suggestions could be made by them for an improvement of the situation.

Perhaps I may remind the Secretary of State that

" The Government are now considering the lessons, both national and international, to be drawn "
and the
" formulation of proposals to improve conditions will be pressed forward with urgency."
That was written in a White Paper, following the"Torrey Canyon"incident, and it was published in April 1967. Why are we still talking in those terms?

I am not in a position to answer for the Government of which I believe the hon. Gentleman was a member—

—between 1970 and 1974. He was a member of a Government for some of that time. I am sure that my memory serves me right and that he served in that Government, in the Department of Trade and Industry—a very apposite Department, perhaps, with some relevance to the kind of decisions that should have been taken in that time. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman's memory is very short.

What I am saying is that over the years there has been a development in the techniques and in awareness, and lessons have been learned. I certainly do not want to adopt—I have not done so—a posture of complacency. What I have said is that in accordance with, I believe, a request from the Select Committee that one should, as soon as possible, consider lessons to be learned from these disasters, this was done in public, a Carmarthen and in Dyfed, and a great many lessons —if the House would allow me to get on to the lessons—were put forward by those who were gathered. This was following that very successful handling of the"Christos Bitas"incident.

I hope that the House will accept that proposition, too. This was a very successful event indeed. Great tragedy was averted through the speedy concentration of a whole host of organisations and resources. People may say"No lessons have been learned ", but if the "Christos Bitas"affair had been handled in some other way and had, perhaps, turned out to be a total disaster, if there was oil despoiling our beaches for many months to come, perhaps those who are now critical would be in a better position so to speak. However, I hope that the House will join with me in congratulating all those who took part in the very successful handling of a most difficult operation. I hope that some of the lessons of what had happened in the past had been learned and applied in the course of what occurred following the"Christos Bitas"incident. That should be put on record today. To ignore that is to do a disservice to the hundreds of people who took part in the handling of the"Christos Bitas"incident.

I agree with what my right hon. and learned Friend has just said. It was a magnificent effort. However, millions of people in Britain also believe that there was grave error of judgment and that there was maritime misbehaviour on the part of those who owned the vessel. What they want to know is what sort of compensation this nation will have for the millions of pounds that the affair cost Great Britain.

On the first point, the question of fault is obviously being examined. An independent inquiry is looking into that matter. It is not right for me to comment on that at this stage. Secondly, the procedures for handling compensation are well known. There is a recourse to the international funds made available. In the event, I do not think that any difficulty will arise from that. Both of those matters are covered by well established procedures.

I hope that the House would like to know what suggestions emerged from the conference at Carmarthen. The first very practical consideration was the need to identify in advance sites where oil and oily material recovered from polluted beaches could be safely placed. This proved a difficult problem with the"Christos Bitas"because of the need not to pollute water supplies. There appeared to be a shortage of known suitable sites. It would obviously have been helpful if sites had been earmarked in advance. We are calling a meeting of waste disposal authorities in Wales to look at this problem, and similar arrangements are contemplated in England. The problem has also emerged as an important one in Scotland, to which the local authorities in Scotland are giving attention.

The second point was a suggestion that someone should be appointed by the Government as a co-ordinator, possibly having powers of direction, to oversee the measures taken to deal with pollution; to secure an immediate response by Government Departments and other public bodies; to decide on priorities after consultation with all the interests concerned and to give decisions where there is a conflict of views. I think that there is a strong case for such an appointment or appointments, and I nominated an officer of my Department who could have filled such a role with the"Christos Bitas"had the need arisen. The question of powers does, however, need careful examination, and this will take place in the review to which I have referred.

A third point related to the treatment of oil which comes ashore. This is a matter which is receiving a good deal of attention. We are redoubling our efforts with regard to research into new ways and means of protecting our coastline against the menace of oil pollution. The research laboratory at Warren Spring has an international reputation in this area. In collaboration with the Warren Spring laboratory and the Uni- versity of Wales, I am hoping to promote in Wales an experiment in the bacteriological decomposition of oil. If succesful, this will be a useful supplement to other measures to deal with pollution which comes ashore.

Does the Secretary of State agree that the best people to deal with the waste oil wherever collected, be it from the beaches or from the sea itself, should be the oil companies? Surely it should be their responsibility to tidy up the mess that they make. They should be made to pay for all the experiments which are presently being carried out.

Before the Secretary of State answers, I respectfully suggest that there have been a large number of interventions. I know that several hon. Members hope to speak this side of 7 o'clock, not after the next debate. Too many interventions not only spoil the flow of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's speech but lengthen it.

I shall be as brief as I can, Mr. Speaker. I dealt with the question of cost when I answered the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy). As to the disposal of oil and oil pollution, it is certainly not for the oil companies to decide where the oil or the oil pollution should be put. This is very much a matter in which the local authorities and water authority would want to take a strong part. It was at their request that the question arose time after time about the collation of powers, and that someone should take the responsibility for deciding these matters where there was a conflict of views. As I have said, at first sight the proposition has attractions, but the question of powers would obviously lead into great difficulties and needs to be considered.

Will the Secretary of State ask the Minister who will be winding up the debate to find out precisely what the situation is with regard to the repayment of expenses incurred by the local authorities at East Anglia since that time? I am not sure how much has been paid or whether anything has yet been paid.

I know that the hon. Gentleman has taken a great deal of interest in this problem and I am sure that my hon. Friend will deal with this point. In principle, there is no difficulty, although I do not know what the practice is with regard to actual payments.

Finally, at that conference there was an acknowledgment of the need for local resources to be supplemented by specialised equipment made available by the Government. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment is building up the central Government stockpile of specialised equipment to be made available to local authorities faced with large-scale pollution problems. This will have a most important part to play.

Although successive reviews have confirmed the present broad allocation of responsibilities, the Government have by no means closed their mind to the possibility of change where this seems likely to result in more effective arrangements. One such change recently announced is the setting up of a new marine pollution control unit in the Department of Trade.

While the arrangements which the Department have operated so far have been generally effective, they have imposed a very considerable strain on staff who have other heavy responsibilities for marine safety. Also, the experience gained by marine survey staff in one part of the country is not readily available to guide the operations which may be necessary elsewhere on another occasion. For these reasons, a new organisation is needed which is able to devote its full time to the task and to get the continuity of experience which is necessary whenever pollution occurs elsewhere. As was announced last Monday, Rear-Admiral Stacey has been appointed as the first director of the unit. Its main tasks were announced at that time, and I shall not take up the time of the House by going over them now.

There is also the possibility of new techniques for dealing with oil spills. As our latest review made clear, we have been investigating the possibility of using aircraft to spray dispersant and have used this technique with light aircraft in recent operations. This could add a flexible and mobile weapon to our armoury.

At this point, perhaps I might refer to the European Communities and to the two instruments which the Scrutiny Com- mittee recommended should be further considered by the House in the context of a future debate, such as this, on marine pollution arising from the carriage of oil at sea. I also recall that the Scrutiny Committee recommended that this further consideration need not delay the adoption of those instruments by the Council of Ministers.

The Council of Transport Ministers met at the end of last week. It was attended by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State who will be winding up the debate. Since the Scrutiny Committee considered the two documents that are now before us there have been a number of developments and, therefore, I can give the House an up-to-date account of where we stand. The House will recall that before last week the Community had reached agreement on two topics. The first was a recommendation that member States should ratify three IMCO and one International Labour Organisation conventions by agreed dates. The second was that the Commission should undertake an action programme of preliminary studies to identify any gaps which need to be filled in the present arrangements to deal with oil pollution. In due course, the Commission will doubtless put forward proposals for action based on these studies.

Last week the Transport Council reached agreement on a recommendation that member States should ratify the recently concluded IMCO convention on standards of training certification and watchkeeping for seafarers by the end of 1980. We intend to conform to this timetable, and my hon. Friend will sign the convention subject to ratification on 1st December—the first day it is open to signature.

The Council also reached agreement on a directive by which member States are to take all necessary and appropriate measures to ensure that there are sufficient adequately qualified deep sea pilots for the use of vessels in the North Sea and English Channel, and member States have to encourage vessels flying their own flag that, if they use a pilot, they use only an adequately qualified pilot.

The Council further reached agreement on a directive setting minimum requirements for certain tankers entering or leaving community ports.

Finally, the Council welcomed the intention of Italy and the Republic of Ireland to apply to join The Hague memorandum of understanding, and noted that member States intend to give their full and whole hearted support to the memorandum.

These are generally constructive measures. Bringing conventions into force, promoting high standards of pilotage and effective enforcement of agreed standards are important steps towards improvements in safety and we welcome a Community contribution to that end.

In my opening remarks I referred to the Christos Bitas ". I would also like to refer to the earlier incident which affected our stores this year—the collision between the"Eleni V"and the"Roseline"off the coast of East Anglia, and the resulting pollution. Here we have the benefit of a report from the Select Committee on Science and Technology. As the House will be aware, we expect to reply fully to that report, in the customary manner, before Christmas. That remains our intention. Even so, it may be for the convenience of the House if I comment on some aspects of the report at this stage.

First, the Government emphatically reject the suggestion, in paragraph 21 of the report, that the present arrangements for dealing with oil spills at sea
" leave the south coast virtually unprotected ".
These arrangements are geared to providing a capability in each of the Department of Trade's south-eastern and south-western marine survey districts to treat about 3,000 tons of oil a day at sea—that is a total of 6,000 tons a day, not 6,000 tons for any one incident as stated in the Committee's report.

In each case this would involve mustering about 20 spraying vessels. At present it would take 48 hours or so to build up to that number, but experience shows that the greater part of the oil in large spills generally remains at sea for some days. Moreover, the resources available on the South Coast can, if desirable, be augmented over a period from other parts of the country, and from France and North Sea countries under the Bonn agreement for co-operation in dealing with pollution of the North Sea by oil 1969.

I am interested in what my right hon. and learned Friend has just said, but as Chairman of the Select Committee I must point out that our report was based on the evidence given to us, which did not bear out what he said.

As I understand it, this is the evidence given on behalf of the Department of Trade to the Committee. I have read the report from the Committee. In the fullness of time a considered answer to the proposition put forward by it will be given by the Government. On this issue certainly there is a disagreement between the Government and the Committee. On that basis I am sure that there will be further consideration. Therefore, I rebut the suggestion of total lack of protection. There may be an argument about the degree of protection, but certainly the position is not as the Select Committee says in its evidence.

We agree that there is a limit to the number of vessels that can be safely and effectively deployed in a confined area and that the weather, the location of the spill, visibility, the rate of emulsification and other factors mean that a capability to treat oil is not necessarily equivalent to preventing all of it from coming ashore. But the current level of capability on the south coast is certainly substantial when compared with the size of the generality of spills, which were given in evidence to the Select Committee.

We do, however, agree with the Select Committee that the anti-pollution aspect of the"Eleni V"operation has emphasised the problems posed by heavy fuel oils. The primary emphasis of our research and development programme on methods of combating oil pollution at sea has certainly been directed towards dealing with crude oils which account for the great bulk of the oil which passes the United Kingdom coastline. However, the particular characteristics of, and problems posed by, heavy crude and heavy fuel oils have certainly not been ignored in that programme, in published material or in training courses.

Warren Spring laboratory has reappraised its research and development programme in the light of recent incidents. Its recovery system for oils which can be pumped is in an advance stage of development, but heavy fuel oils cannot be pumped at sea temperatures and consequently present special difficulties, which the laboratory is studying further, together with improved methods of using dispersants.

In the meantime, if a restricted spraying operation on a heavy oil appears in future to be relatively ineffective, it may be necessary to concentrate on cleaning up any oil which comes ashore by mechanical means.

There is a good deal more that could be said about the Select Committee's report, and will be said when we present our formal reply. At this stage, I will add that there were a number of adverse factors which were bound to cause difficulty, and which were not perhaps fully appreciated by those who have the benefit of hindsight.

Most of the oil was released at the time of the collision only about six miles from the coast, and the winds and tides carried much of it ashore within 48 hours. No country has yet demonstrated any means of dealing at sea with the type of heavy fuel oil carried by the"Eleni V ". The salvage operation was extremely difficult and complex in character. At every stage, the objective underlying the measures taken—which were supported by a wide range of informed opinion—was to minimise the risk of further pollution.

I represent a constituency in which the largest oil terminal in Europe is just receiving oil. It is in extremely enclosed water. The Secretary of State has spoken about disasters at sea. If there were a disaster on the approaches to Sullom Voe it would be nothing like six miles from the coast. Will the Secretary of State say something about the Government's proposals for dealing with collisions or wrecks in very enclosed waters, which are very practical matters in the approach to Sullom Voe? Who will be responsible? Where will the central depot of equipment be? How long will it take for the equipment or detergent to get there?

I shall leave to my hon. Friend the question of the location of the depot or depots. The intention is to have more than one depot—perhaps three. We may need sub-depots as equipment becomes available. Certainly it is the intention to have these depots in more than one place. Because these incidents occur in a wide range of places it is not prudent or possible to have depots dotted along innumerable spots on the coast. We hope to have them at strategic points, so that they can be readily available within the shortest possible time. It is unusual for the oil immediately to come ashore. There is usually the time to deploy the resources available to whatever part of the country they are needed. I shall leave the other point about restricted space to my hon. Friend as well.

Earlier, the Secretary of State said that the Government's full reaction to the Select Committee report would come"in the fullness of time". He has made a preliminary attempt to answer some of the Committee's remarks today. There is a Written Answer to myself saying that the Government's reply will be forthcoming before Christmas. I hope that he regards"the fullness of time"as not in any way varying that pledge.

That is our intention. I wrote to my hon. Friend the chairman of the Committee at the weekend indicating the time scale. That remains the order of things.

I understand that my hon. Friend has written to the hon. Gentleman on that basis. As this debate is being held today I thought it right to deal with the one point on which we differ substantially from the Committee, and the other on which we accepted part of the proposition on the need to deal with heavy oil. These were matters that it was right to bring before the House in this debate. There are a whole host of other points which it would be right and proper to deal with at some length in reply to the Committee, in accordance with tradition.

I have been generous in giving way to a host of interventions, which have taken up a great deal of time, for which I apologise. We should not underestimate the anxiety that is felt when various parts of the country have an oil spillage tragedy on their doorsteps. That was how I felt about the"Christos Bitas"and I am sure that the hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell) felt the same way when his constituency was affected.

I hope that hon. Members will keep the sense of proportion that the House would wish to see shown in the debate. More than 1 million tons of oil is moved by ships every day through the Channel alone, yet since 1970 the biggest oil spills for which the Department of Trade's antipollution plans have had to be activated were 6,300 tons from the"Pacific Glory ", 2,100 tons from the"Olympic Alliance"and, this year, about 5,000 tons from the"Eleni V"and about 2,400 tons from the "Christos Bitas ". The remainder were much smaller, and few in number. I exclude the"Amoco Cadiz"case in which the Department mounted a successful operation to save the Channel Islands from the pollution which might have seemed inevitable.

None of the incidents this year has involved loss of human life, even though a great deal of the work had to be done at personal peril to the people involved in the operation and it would not be right for me to finish my speech without paying tribute to everyone who took part.

We are not complacent. We realise that the amount of tanker traffic around our coasts means that there is always a risk of accidents, but I sincerely hope that the House will not over-react to the point of advocating costly and disproportionate measures that would be unused for almost all the time and would, in any case, be inadequate to deal with the exceptional disaster.

4.32 p.m.

On 18th March 1967—nearly 12 years ago—the"Torrey Canyon"went aground on the Seven Stones in my constituency and I found myself, having just been elected to the House, having to face all the problems that my hon. Friend the Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell) has had to face in the much smaller but equally distressing case of the"Eleni V ".

It is to the experience of my hon. Friend and the knowledge of members of the Select Committee that I defer in the debate. It would be inappropriate for me, before hearing their remarks, to embark on a detailed post mortem of an event which I did not experience. I shall refer to it with a little more knowledge than the Secretary of State has because I have studied the report of the Select Committee with considerable care. How- ever, I shall leave my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Edwards) to answer points made by members of the Select Committee when he winds up for the Opposition. I want to concentrate mainly on the question of prevention.

In opening the debate from this side of the House, I want to make two preliminary remarks. First, although I do not want to be over-critical, I must say that it is less than satisfactory that the new Secretary of State for Trade will not be speaking. The right hon. Gentleman has probably just slipped out for a moment, so he is not even here for this part of the debate. As a matter of principle, when a Select Committee severely criticises a Department—whether the criticisms are valid or not—it is right that the head of the Department should answer for it, even if he is new and bears no personal blame.

There are considerable international and national legal matters to discuss. Many of the remarks of the Secretary of State for Wales were concerned with the"Christos Bitas"affair, which is relevant, but is not specifically part of the motion.

We are not discussing the report of the Select Committee. That might be a matter on which the hon. Gentleman could properly criticise us, but the motion before us is for the Adjournment. We are discussing oil spillage, which has wide environmental considerations.

But the Secretary of State knows that the House was informed that this was a debate on oil spillage in which the Select Committee's report on the"Eleni V" was relevant. Since the report is relevant, the Secretary of State for Trade should have spoken in the debate.

Since the House is discussing oil spillage today, why do we have to wait until Christmas for the Government's response on the Select Committee's report? I am aware, of course, that there is normally a delay between publication of a Select Committee report and the Government's reply, but as we have a debate on the matter today one might have expected the Government to give their full reply at this juncture.

The hon. Gentleman will speak later. He can answer then.

However difficult these issues—and I think that they are extremely difficult—none of us should underrate the widespread and growing concern of the British public. That concern goes far beyond the interests of fishing, tourism and business generally in coastal constituencies. Conservationists, with their expression of profound disquiet about the dangers of our modern industrial society, only reflect a rather less strident concern among millions of ordinary people about the social and ecological consequences of where twentieth century society is going.

When I read the Select Committee's report, I was struck by the similarity of many of the criticisms and of the defences put up by the Government with the position that I remember from the"Torrey Canyon"and our debate on 10th April 1967. Of course, every spill and every accident is unique, but the same concern has been expressed in the case of the"Eleni V"about the lack of contingency arrangements, about the failure to anticipate events and about delay and indecisiveness as was expressed over the"Torrey Canyon"nearly 12 years ago.

After weeks of indecision in the"Torrey Canyon"case, the then Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson), flew to my constituency, set up a sort of operations room on the cliffs at Land's End and personally directed the destruction of the vessel by the RAF. In West Cornwall we still think of that incident as being perhaps the most tenacious and decisive act of the right hon. Gentleman's career.

The point is that Prime Ministers and Ministers come and go, but their advisers in the Civil Service go on for ever."Immortal and invisible ", in the words of the hymn, they are honest and decent people who are full of intelligence, but on the whole they are, by disposition and training and because of their accountability to the House, not always the appropriate people to take risks in an emergency. The natural reaction of Ministers' advisers in a crisis is to assemble a committee, which invariably decides to call an interdepartmental committee to advise a sub-committee of the Cabinet.

My hon. Friend the Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) calls in his interesting early-day motion, for which he will argue with his usual skill, for a change in interdepartmental responsibility. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) will note his recommendation. But I wonder whether it is wise to divide prevention from cure. My hon. Friend will explain why he thinks that that would be advisable and say whether he thinks that much will change if the chairmanship of an inter-departmental committee—in the end that is what it will be, in view of the vast list of Departments involved—switches from the Department of Trade to the Department of the Environment. I have doubts.

Subject to my hon. Friend's arguments and the feelings of the 132 supporters of his motion, I should like to pursue a rather different course, although I think it brings me to the same objective.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that the Department of the Environment is the Department with major responsibilities for pollution and environmental matters over a wide range of areas, and that therefore it would make a great deal of sense to bring this aspect of pollution control under the same general supervision?

I understand my hon. Friend's point, but if one reads the Select Committee's report on the"Eleni V ", the"Christos Bitas"report, published this morning, and the reports of all the other inquiries into the matter, the departmental studies, one sees that in the end the meetings that take place in a crisis are meetings among many Departments. Suddenly to create an artificial subdivision at one mile from the shore may not necessarily change anything very much.

However, I want to make a point that is very much along my hon. Friend's lines. The letter from the Rotary Club of Lowestoft, to be found on page 113 of the Select Committee's report, struck a chord with me. In that letter the club, which may be a peculiar source but is nevertheless an interesting one, says in a simple way—

I am saying that I think that it was a peculiarly good, simple letter. If the right hon. Gentleman, who has not spoken in the debate, will listen to what I have to say, he will understand the point that I am making.

I understand that the hon. Gentleman criticised my absence from the Chamber during the debate for all of three minutes. He said that the letter was from a peculiar source. I merely questioned what was peculiar about that Rotary Club.

I criticised the fact that the Secretary of State for Trade, whose departmental responsibilities these matters are, was not speaking in the debate. That is the criticism that the right hon. Gentleman should answer. I also remarked that the right hon. Gentleman was absent for a few minutes.

The Rotary Club of Lowestoft said in its letter that although there was of course ultimate ministerial responsibility in these matters, there was no single executive power of a trouble-shooting kind. There was no single full-time paid person who could swing into action in an emergency and command the full resources of the nation. It is in that light that I very much welcome the appointment of Rear-Admiral Stacey to his post, together with his technical adviser, Captain Ralph May-bourn, from British Petroleum. But is it right to put the admiral within the departmental structure of the Department of Trade? Where a critical emergency arises, the chain of command should be from a person with executive responsibility direct to senior Ministers, with civil servants in attendance, as it were. Here we need much more someone with executive authority working direct to Ministers. Civil servants should be acting in an advisory, not an executive, capacity in this kind of case.

I want to enlarge on that, because I am aware of the tremendous experience in the marine division of the Department of Trade and of all the experience in other Departments. It is in executive action that so often we have gone wrong.

The Select Committee's report is a very useful document. Hon. Members who served on the Committee are to be applauded for it. But if I were looking for a specific criticism—I want to leave aside entirely for the moment the general question of how far it is possible to hold sufficient resources of men, materials and money available to meet a major catastrophe—it would be that nowhere can I find any mention of the role that might have been played by the oil industry itself.

Of course, in the"Eleni V"case Chevron and the owners' agents and the P. and I. Club played an undistinguished role. As far as one can make out, they were anxious to sit back and let others tackle the crisis. But in the"Christos Bitas"case, which I think was well handled on the whole, BP played a most successful role.

The oil industry possesses vast knowledge of spillage clearance techniques. It has mechanical recovery equipment and large dispersant stocks and unparalleled knowledge of the properties of oil and its behaviour. I am told that a simple test of viscosity on the spot by an oil industry expert might well have shown immediately that the normal dispersants were not entirely suitable for the particular kind of oil that was spilled in the"Eleni V"case. In fact, it took three whole days to obtain that message from the Warren Spring laboratory.

Therefore, I am left with the impression that in this case the Government were too anxious to go it alone. I trust that Admiral Stacey will draw in the oil and shipping industries' expertise more than in the past, as well as consulting and working very closely with the marine division of the Department of Trade and with the Defence Department.

The hon. Gentleman is slightly criticising the Select Committee, as he is entitled to do, for not looking further into the role of oil companies. The problem of all Select Committee investigations is that if one is to take evidence from absolutely everybody one will never finish. We felt that it was very important to get the report out quickly.

That is a fair reply. I was simply making the point that in the"Christos Bitas"case BP played a valuable and important role, whereas in the Select Committee's report the possibility of the oil industry's playing a role is not referred to.

I shall not go into the question of the movement of oil. The Secretary of State for Wales has mentioned that 1 million tons goes through the Channel daily, and I think that over 21,000 very large crude carriers have passed through those narrow straits in the past 12 years. It is for this reason that every hon. Member representing coastal areas has grave concern.

It may be that in due course—the sooner, the better—we shall find a replacement for fossil fuels, a renewable source of energy that is cleaner and more acceptable. In the meantime, modern industrial society is in a trap and it does not help to rail against the oil companies, which are merely in the end responding to the demand for a basic source of energy.

I want to criticise the oil companies in one or two respects, but if every tanker were well found, well manned and in the best possible condition, human error would still occur in the dangerous medium of the sea, as the Secretary of State for Wales said. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman himself remarked, the advisory committee on oil pollution of the sea, which has done a much better job than the Department of Trade has done in identifying spillage, points out that only 5 per cent. or so of oil entering the sea does so as a result of accidents. Mention has been made of the cleaning out of tanks at sea, but I understand that the greatest source of oil pollution in the sea is oil washed down our rivers, through, for instance, ordinary people emptying the sump of their motor car down the drain. That oil finds its way into the sea.

Mr. Nott