asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what was the total cost, in manpower and money, of policing the march from Toomebridge to Burntollet.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many police officers, soldiers and members of the Ulster Defence Regiment were deployed on 5, 6 and 7 January 1979 for the protection of the procession of supporters of imprisoned criminals from Toomebridge to Burntollet; what is the total cost to the police authority in respect of the officers so deployed; and how many hours of police time were spent on this operation.

On each of the three days of this march, an average of 850 police officers, three companies of Regular soldiers and one company of the Ulster Defence Regiment, together with their various support services, were deployed to assist in preserving peace and public order. It is not possible, without disproportionate cost, to provide a figure for the additional expenditure incurred by the security forces operation.

Does the Secretary of State agree that the so-called civil rights commemoration order is nothing short of an exercise in coat-trailing and provocation, designed to contain large numbers of the security forces? Does he also agree that a total ban should have been placed on this parade and that it should have been confined to the village of Toomebridge where, as I am sure he is aware, there is almost 100 per cent. support for the IRA and its activities?

The Government decided that the march was legal because the Chief Constable had estimated that there would be no serious public disorder. The marchers complied with the Act and gave notice that the march would take place. However, the Chief Constable did enforce some route changes on the way.

The hon. Gentleman should note the encouraging fact that at no time during the course of the three-day march were more than 250 people marching en route and that at the final rally at lunch time on Sunday there were fewer than 500 supporters. The main objectives of the march were to obtain support for the Maze prisoners and the "Troops Out" movement.

It failed miserably in both these objectives.

The Secretary of State says that 850 police officers, three companies of Regulars and one company of the UDR were deployed, on average. Surely he is obscuring the fact that between Dungiven and Burntollet 1,440 police officers, six companies of Regulars and heaven knows how many members of the UDR were deployed. If the reason for banning a march is that it will lead to serious public disorder, how does the Secretary of State arrive at the conclusion that there was no such danger when over 2,000 members of the security forces were needed to protect the march?

I have to rely upon the judgment of the Chief Constable in these affairs, and his judgment was right. The UDR, the Army and a number of police were in operation. The turnout was small—smaller than anticipated—and there were no serious incidents en route.

Has my right hon. Friend any indication of the cost to the security forces of the protection given every year in Northern Ireland to the marches of the Orangemen between March and August to commemorate the doings or misdoings of a Dutchman who had fallen out with his father-in-law in this country?

My hon. Friend knows as much as anyone in this House about marches in Northern Ireland. He also knows that it is a democracy and that we allow marches and demonstrations provided that notice is given under the public order provisions. Provided that the Chief Constable feels that there is no danger to public order, there is no reason why marches should not take place.

With regard to the conditions in the Maze prison, which was the subject of the march, we very much welcome the pamphlet that the Secretary of State has just published, through official sources, to help put the record straight. Will he circulate this pamphlet to embassies and high commissions all over the world, and especially the official photograph showing that the cells were deliberately smeared by the prisoners in this dirty campaign? Will he also intensify such counter-measures as he can take and seek television time in the United States and Europe to answer this crude propaganda?

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman. I did not anticipate the subject of the Maze prison arising on a question relating to the march to Burn-toilet. I have circulated the pamphlet to every Member of Parliament and to every national newspaper north and south of the border as well as in Britain. It has been circulated to all the media, and many copies will be going to foreign embassies and consulates abroad.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is a unique view of democracy that the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Mr. Dunlop) holds when he suggests that people should demonstrate only when they have 100 per cent. support for the demonstration? Does my right lion. Friend agree that to ban any march in Northern Ireland, without a great deal of good reason, would be to lend ourselves to a viewpoint that we do not hold? Does he further agree that demonstrations should be allowed to take place wherever possible?

I think that in general terms my hon. Friend is right. We have to consider seriously the main goals of the march, the likelihood of provocation en route and whether the demonstrators are intending purposely to march into areas where they know from the outset that there will be confrontation and conflict. We take such matters into consideration, together with the Chief Constable's advice to me, and wherever possible we allow the marches to take place.

Will the right hon. Gentleman keep in mind that the dispute referred to by the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) was not a family row but had to do with deep principles? May I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that if he dared to take such a simplistic view of these matters as the hon. Member for Belfast, West is taking, he would find himself in serious trouble not only at Burntollet but at other places?

If so many members of the police and the Army were deployed on that occasion, why was it that law-abiding citizens going about their lawful business were banned from part of the parade route and directed to go another way, and were even told that if they insisted in going along the Queen's highway they would be arrested?

I cannot be responsible to the hon. Gentleman, I am sorry to say, for every incident that might have taken place en route. There were no serious incidents. That is the main point. The Chief Constable's estimate of the march was right. I cannot afford, in my job in Northern Ireland, to take a simplistic view of any incident that arises there.

rose—

rose—

Order. I propose to call the two hon. Members who have risen, but on other questions I shall call fewer hon. Members to ask supplementary questions, in order to make up the time.

Since the march concerned protests about conditions in the Maze prison, may I thank the Secretary of State for affording the hon. Member for Isle of Ely (Mr. Freud), the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Hull, Central (Mr. McNamara) and myself the opportunity of visiting the Maze prison two weeks ago? May I congratulate the Government on what they have done in their robust—

Order. Congratulations must wait until after Question Time.

May I ask the Secretary of State to say once more—because it needs to be repeated endlessly—quite unequivocally that he will not give way to the protesters at the Maze, and will maintain the standards of prison discipline which are current throughout the United Kingdom? Will he also say that he will continue to consider as United Kingdom prisoners all those who have been convicted and are serving sentences in the Maze prison?

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman. I am pleased that he was able to take part in the all-party parliamentary visit to the Maze prison. It is part of our policy of gradually allowing views from impartial observers to emanate from there. As the hon. Gentleman knows, members of Northern Ireland political parties and Church leaders have been to the Maze. We decided that this policy was right. The observations of the all-party parliamentary delegation were encouraging.

There will be no return to political status in the Maze for any of those protesters—they might as well know it now—whether I stand at this Dispatch Box or whether it is a Conservative Minister. There will be no amnesty, either. The Maze prison is one of the finest prisons in Western Europe. The facilities granted to the prisoners who conform are better and more advanced than those afforded to prisoners in Great Britain.

In deference to other hon. Members, Mr. Speaker, I shall not ask a supplementary question.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will give further details about the contract between De Lorean Cars and Lotus Cars Ltd.

The contract between the De Lorean Motor Company and Lotus Cars Ltd. is an agreement between the two companies, to which Government are not a party. I cannot, therefore, provide details of its terms. A joint statement issued by the two companies on 16 November 1978 indicated that Lotus would co-operate in the completion of the design and development of the DMC 12 sports car to be produced in Northern Ireland and that the work would include the building and testing of prototypes.

I welcome the Government's efforts to provide jobs in West Belfast, but will my right hon. Friend provide me with ammunition to use against those critics who argue that the contract with Lotus to provide research and development indicates that subscribing £53 million to De Lorean Cars was perhaps a little hasty, on the basis of two prototypes? I am alarmed when my right hon. Friend says that the Government are not involved in the contract, because they are providing far and away the largest sum of money. Does not this indicate that the research and development have not been fully completed?

If my hon. Friend wants ammunition, all I can say to him is that the assistance on this project consists of grants and loans. From the outset of the negotiations I was aware that further design and development work would be required. The selection of the company to undertake the work was a matter entirely for the De Lorean Motor Company. I was delighted to learn that Lotus had agreed to undertake the task, in view of its well-known ability and experience. It would be intolerable if the Government were to require every commercial agreement made by companies to be vetted and agreed by the Government. In the case of the De Lorean company, with such financial criteria being applied to the company, I can assure my hon. Friend that we keep the matter very much under control. We have nominee directors—or the Northern Ireland Development Agency has nominee directors—on the board.

Will the Minister of State confirm that the maximum possible commitment by the Government to this project is £65 million? Will he tell the House what will be the rate of return on that part of the £65 million which is not a grant?

The hon. Gentleman has got it wrong again. He has upped the ante already, from £53 million to £65 million. He might be adding to the £53 million, which was granted by way of loan, the £13 million which has come from private sources to De Lorean, which the company is using.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what further consideration has been given to the Birley report on "Opportunities at 16".

One of the main aims of the study group which presented this report was to stimulate further discussion on the problems of young people as they move from school to adult life and work. My noble Friend the Minister of State has decided to convene a major conference in the Ulster polytechnic on 8 February 1979 at which the main issues considered in the report will be discussed. Invitations to attend the conference have been sent to over 500 representatives in education and industry in Northern Ireland.

Will my hon. Friend assure the House that in the course of this conference, and in any future discussions that take place, industry, the Government and the trade union movement in Northern Ireland will be involved to ensure the implementation of the recommendations of the Birley report?

I give my hon. Friend that assurance. Both trade unions and industry were represented on the study group which drew up the report and they will be a party, on a much wider basis, to the discussions that will take place on 8 February. We hope that recommendations of a real and proven kind will come from that conference to assist young people in the transition from education to employment in Northern Ireland.

As, sadly, there is a deplorable shortage of well qualified young people entering industry and commerce in Northern Ireland, does the Minister agree that immediate positive action should be taken to bring together the principals of the grammar and high schools and lecturers in institutions of further education in Northern Ireland so that they can exploit the resources available for technical and business education in the Province? This is absolutely necessary for the benefit of the Ulster students.

The groups mentioned by the hon. Member will be represented at the conference, as will representatives from commerce and industry. The hon. Gentleman has raised a serious question. In Northern Ireland we are short of people in various skills and professions. We must do all that we can in education, commerce and industry to make sure that we get the right supply. I hope that this conference will help towards that end.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what has been the cost of the insulation programme undertaken by the Housing Executive in the current year; and what is the estimate of the programme for the coming year.

The estimated cost of the current financial year's programme is £666,000. It is estimated that £700,000 will be spent in 1979–80.

Is the Minister aware that many of the contractors fail to comply with the specifications laid down by the Housing Executive? Have those contractors who have failed in that way been paid in full? If so, will steps be taken to recoup the sums that will be required to meet the remedial costs?

I am not in a position to confirm or deny what the hon. Gentleman has alleged. If he has specific cases, he should refer them to me. If work of substandard quality has been done, we shall ensure that public money has not been squandered.

Will these insulated houses be for sale before or after insulation? Is the Minister aware that, given the peculiarities of the waiting lists in the Six Counties, the decision to sell off 53,000 houses could result in a further polarisation of the two communities in that part of Ireland?

My hon. Friend's question has nothing to do with insulation, but I shall send him a detailed reply.

The article which no doubt inspired the question was misinformed and did not give an accurate assessment or picture of what is intended in Northern Ireland. The figure of 53,000 is a pipedream. We shall not sell 53,000 houses in Northern Ireland. To ease the minds of my hon. Friends, I should add that not one house in the public sector will be sold while there is a continuing demand for rented accommodation.

Is the Minister satisfied that retired people and pensioners are getting their fair share of this programme? If not, will he make sure that they do?

They are the first priority in the whole programme. Dwellings for old and retried people are at the top of the list. As far as I know—I shall let the hon. Gentleman know if this is not the case—they are receiving priority treatment.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland why it is necessary under the common agricultural policy for restrictions to be applied to livestock and livestock products entering Northern Ireland.

The EEC rules would normally preclude import controls on livestock and livestock products between member countries. But under EEC derogations Northern Ireland maintains strict import controls in order to protect the Province' high animal health status. Northern Ireland has been free from the major animal diseases such as foot and mouth, swine fever and swine vesicular disease for many years and both the Government and the EEC take the view that it is important to protect its status. I should like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the chief veterinary officer and the staff of the Department of Agriculture for their excellent work in this area.

I recognise the excellent record of the Department of Agriculture in Northern Ireland in securing disease-free livestock production, but will my hon. Friend say in what way this strict animal health control will affect trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom?

I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks. Coming from him, I take them as a compliment. Livestock and livestock products from Great Britain are admitted to Northern Ireland only under certain conditions. Livestock products are imported only under licence. All farm animals are subject to quarantine. Cows are not admitted because of the risk of illness and disease. There are no animal health bans on products going from Northern Ireland to Great Britain.

As agriculture is Northern Ireland's biggest industry, should not there be a debate on the effect of the CAP on Northern Ireland agriculture and, at the same time, a discussion on the serious impact that the advent of EMS will have on the economy of Northern Ireland from the agricultural point of view? We note that it will mean the dismantling of what has been a successful monetary union of the British Isles.

It is not for me to give the answer that the hon. Gentleman requires. I am sure that the powers-that-be are listening to what is said.

Since the Court of Justice of the European Communities recently pronounced on the activities of the Northern Ireland Pig Marketing Board, is the Minister satisfied that there will continue to be reasonably good facilities for the sale of pigs and the control of pig marketing in Northern Ireland? Is the Minister aware of the strictures in that judgment on the control of the land frontier between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland?

The hon. Gentleman will have read my reaction to that court action. We are confident that we can, within the existing structure, maintain an orderly system for pig farmers.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the future of the Northern Ireland gas industry.

I regret that the completion of the review of the total energy problem to which I have referred on earlier occasions has been delayed because of the involvement of those concerned with the review—including myself—in work on all the problems that have been going on in Northern Ireland, of which my Department has borne the brunt. I shall make the Government's proposals known as soon as possible.

Is the Minister aware that his reply will be greeted with great disappointment in Northern Ireland, in view of the promise that he gave on a number of occasions last year? Does he concede that the events of the past month have shown just how vulnerable the gas industry in Northern Ireland is to industrial action and inclement weather? As the British Gas Corporation expects profits of £300 million this year, will he investigate whether some of that money could be used to extend the pipeline to Northern Ireland?

The first part of the hon. Gentleman's question deals with the vulnerability of the gas industry in Northern Ireland to disputes. The Northern Ireland economy as a whole is more vulnerable than that of anywhere else to industrial disputes. We have said a great deal about this. I should now like to get back to the job that I should have been doing this past month and make sure that the review is out as soon as possible.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that if the proposals for the gas industry go ahead they are bound to affect the amount of solid fuel sold in Northern Ireland? Should not we take into account the fact that the 1 million tonnes sold there now are very important to British miners, especially bearing in mind that there are 440 million tons of coal on the ground in Great Britain and that every attempt must be made to sell as much coal as we can? Will my right hon. Friend give us an assurance that whatever proposals are examined and brought forward they will not affect the solid fuel market in Northern Ireland?

My hon. Friend should be pleased about the efforts that have been made in Northern Ireland. The take-up of coal has increased by 13 per cent. One of the energy problems in Northern Ireland is the present surplus. Anything that we do with one source of energy is bound to have an effect on other sources. That is one of the problems which I hope will be brought to the attention of the House when my report is ready.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the gas industry in Northern Ireland is in a sad and sorry state and that as long as he puts off his decision there will still be deterioration in the industry? Will he confirm that solid fuel has a majority of the market in Northern Ireland? Will he confirm that the price of gas—

All gas and gaiters.

—in Northern Ireland compared with the price in the rest of the United Kingdom is at least is at least half as much again? Will he confirm that he will make adecision—

Order. It will be a confirmation service.

The price of gas in Northern Ireland is about three times higher than in the rest of the United Kingdom. As the hon. Gentleman knows, that is because of decisions taken some time ago to base the energy requirement in Northern Ireland on oil. To be fair, there is really no gas industry there. There is a fragmentation of 13 different companies and local authorities. If Northern Ireland, when it had the chance, had gone the same way as the gas industry in Great Britain did when it had the chance, the industry in Northern Ireland would probably now be thinking about profits.

The House recognises that the Minister has had much to do recently. However, I remind him that it was 1977 when the report was first submitted to him by the British Gas Corporation. Will he assure the House that when he makes his final recommendation he will take into account all the information on the latest finds in the Morecambe Bay field and the possibility of the bulk carriage of gas?

I shall obviously do that. The Minister has been busy not only recently but for some time. I shall take into consideration the matters that the hon. Gentleman has raised. I ask the House to be patient for a little longer. I shall report as soon as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will institute an inquiry, of which the results could be made public, into the state of equipment and plant and the conditions of work in the water service supplying the southern part of the counties of Down and Armagh.

No, Sir. We are aware of the state of equipment and plant at the Fofannybane water treatment works which supplies the southern parts of the counties of Down and Armagh, and we are taking urgent steps to improve working conditions there.

Is the Minister aware that it is widely believed, whether or not cor- rectly, that the recent industrial action was partly due to the state of the equipment and the management of the service in the area? Would it not be in the interests of both the Department and the Government to make the facts known as objectively as possible, whether that is done by means of an inquiry or otherwise?

The recent industrial dispute was not connected in any way with the state of plant. That has been known for years. We have had reports, and we are working on them. Recommendations have been made to bring the plant up to modern standards. The tragedy of the dispute was that it held up the process of bringing the plant up to modern standards. We do not see the need for a report, because we are well aware of the deficiencies.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the war against terrorism in Northern Ireland.

In the period since I last addressed the House on 6 December, the increased level of terrorist activity, which had commenced in the middle of November, continued during the remainder of December.

Four soldiers and a prison officer have met their deaths; three of the soldiers were killed in a gun attack on a patrol in Crossmaglen on 21 December.

Since the end of December, two members of the Provisional IRA have died in an explosion, possibly caused by the premature detonation of bombs which they were carrying. There have been fewer terrorist attacks on commercial premises in January.

In 1978 the RUC charged 843 persons with terrorist offences.

Following the death of deputy governor Albert Miles, and bearing in mind the current callous campaign against prison staff, what new proposals is the Secretary of State putting forward to protect prison officers who have an essential duty to perform on behalf of us all?

Prior to Christmas, a special attempt was made to frighten, intimidate and possibly kill prison officers. Unfortunately, those responsible succeeded with the deputy governor. There was an attempt by the Provisional IRA to change the policy of Her Majesty's Government over the Maze protest. It did not succeed by Christmas, and it will not succeed in future. The prison officers have all been given an assurance by the RUC that they may have a personal weapon if they wish and that if they think they are being threatened they will be given a special guard.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, despite some of the favourable trends that have been seen in the war against terrorists, seven young uniformed soldiers were killed in South Armagh last year, as against two in 1977? What is being done by the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends at the Ministry of Defence to lessen the risk that young men have to face in South Armagh while maintaining a security presence?

The hon. Gentleman represents that area. There is a great deal of hostility towards Her Majesty's Forces in the areas of South Armagh and Crossmaglen. I am sorry to say that the death rate increased in those areas, but throughout the Province there was a noticeable decline in deaths in 1978 among the UDR, the police, the Army and civilians.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that all elected representatives from Northern Ireland deeply deplore and deprecate the murder of young British soldiers and members of the security forces in Northern Ireland? Is he satisfied with the instructions that are given on the yellow card to the British Army and with the steps that are taken to save innocent persons' lives? Is he aware that allegations have been made in Northern Ireland, founded or unfounded, and believed by many, that at least 10 innocent persons have been killed by members of the British Army who have not carried out the instructions on the yellow card? Is he satisfied that the yellow card does not have to be brought up to date to ensure the protection of young innocent lives?

I am pleased to hear what my hon. Friend said about himself and many hon. Members—indeed, I hope all hon. Members—being impressed by the courage and dedication of the British soldier in Northern Ireland. I hope that he will not be responsible for the beginning of rumours that 10 innocent people have lost their lives in the Province because of the soldiers. The soldiers operate under the rules on the card. It is difficult for these young men to carry out their exercises and operations if they feel that they do not have the support of the local community, and especially of the political leaders. I hope that my hon. Friend will give them the lead that they require.

In view of both British and Spanish reports that members of the Provisional IRA have operated with terrorists of the Basque separatist organisation ETA, and that members of that organisation have taken part in activities in the United Kingdom, are the Government satisfied with the co-operation between European and other western countries against the common enemy of Western civilisation?

The hon. Gentleman may know that at the Provisional Sinn Fein ardheis that was held recently in the Republic of Ireland representatives of the Basque terrorists were present. Undoubtedly, there is a tenuous link. We keep in touch with our embassies and consulates abroad and warn them if we think that there is anything developing from that link.

Do not the murder figures as a whole in Northern Ireland show a reduction? Is not that a fact that we should regard as encouraging?

My right hon. Friend is right. In 1976, 296 people died in Northern Ireland. In 1977 the number fell to 112, and last year, in spite of the La Mon House restaurant incident, it fell to 81. Progress is being made in that respect. There are fewer deaths, fewer woundings and fewer shooting incidents. We never talk about success, but we talk about progress, and progress is definitely being made in that regard.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I hasten to assure you that this point of order has nothing to do with gas and gaiters—or your gaiters, Mr. Speaker. This is a serious point that I should like to bring to your attention.

Today, on question No. 9, in answer to a supplementary question to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland by the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt), the right hon. Gentleman implied that all those who had been shot by the British Army and killed in Ulster were in some way guilty. I rise to defend, and ask your ruling on, two men. I hasten to say that neither question is at present before a court.

One case concerns John Boyle, a Roman Catholic constituent of mine. The other concerns Jim Taylor, a Protestant constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Ulster (Mr. Dunlop). Both men were shot and killed by the British Army many months ago. No action has yet been taken, although the pathologist's report made it perfectly clear that John Boyle was shot three times in the back.

Would the hon. Gentleman be kind enough to indicate the point of order on which he wishes me to rule?

I wish you, Mr. Speaker, to rule on whether it is right for the Secretary of State to give an answer which indicts two innocent men.

That is a question for the Minister. I cannot rule on what a Minister should say.

Further to the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley), and in support of what he said about the response that I received from the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to my supplementary question, is it not your opinion, Mr. Speaker, that the matter raised by the hon. Gentleman, namely, the life and death of his constituents, is far more important than what we have listened to for the past hour? Would you reconsider your decision, in view of the fact that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland said that those who were shot by the British Army were guilty of a crime, when the facts are completely contrary? I could name people in addition to those named by the hon. Gentleman.

rose—

Order.

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. As for the person Boyle, referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt), directions for a prosecution have now been given by the Director of Prosecutions for Northern Ireland. I suggest that it would be better if the matter were left there.

I was about to say to the House that the Minister is responsible for whatever statement he has made. He carries that responsibility. It is for the Minister to decide whether he wishes to come to the House to deal with the matter. There is nothing that I can do, especially as the matter is sub judice in one instance.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will list the criteria that he applies when the Government decide to give financial assistance to industry in the Province; and whether he is satisfied that the criteria always result in a proper allocation of public funds.

When considering applications for selective financial assistance under the Industries Development (Northern Ireland) Acts 1966 and 1971 regard is normally paid to a project's potential viability and the extent to which it would result in the creation or maintenance of employment or the strengthening of industry in the Province. These criteria are similar to those applying in Great Britain and are designed to ensure a proper allocation of public funds. I am satisfied that they are being correctly applied.

To what extent is the return on capital on the investment put up by the Government one of the criteria? To what extent will there he a reasonable return on capital from the De Lorean investment?

In both those instances there is a good deal of financial and commercial information that is best kept confidential. On one side we have the Northern Ireland Development Agency, which has to act commercially, whereas I, in the Department of Commerce, have a little more latitude.

So that proper guidelines are drawn up to protect public money, will the Minister set up a public inquiry to reveal the truth and to expose the corruption that existed in connection with the contract entered into with Mr. Hoppe, the former managing director of the Belfast shipyard? The Government of the day here and the then Stormont Government were guilty of aiding and abetting tax evasion on a massive scale in relation to this man's considerable salary and compensation.

The Hoppe case hardly arises on this question. I have answered previous questions from the hon. Gentleman on the matter. I have pointed out that this contract between Harland and Wolff and a Swiss company was in 1971, before Harland and Wolff was nationalised. His question has nothing to do with the administration of the Harland and Wolff shipyard at this time, but concerns other people in 1971.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Treasury has estimated that British Exchequer net expenditure in Northern Ireland now exceeds £1,000 million a year? The House knows in considerable detail the pattern of civil expenditure in Northern Ireland, but it knows nothing of the amount of military expenditure. Will he undertake to give the House the necessary information which will enable hon. Members to ascertain how much money is being spent on military operations—

Order. That is a separate question. This deals with industry.

When public money is provided for industry, is that industry exhorted to buy British? If so, why is the De Lorean company being allowed to employ French consultants in its factory construction programme?

There has been some bickering about De Lorean. I thought that my press statement this week would have backed up what I have been saying about the company. Spin-offs have already taken place in Northern Ireland. Two of the contracts have gone to local firms. I should have thought that that was a matter for rejoicing and an answer to the sceptics.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will arrange to make public advice which periodically may be given to him by the Northern Ireland Economic Council.

To date, all the advice which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has been given by the council has been made public, although circumstances could arise in which it would be desirable to preserve the confidentiality of work carried out on his behalf. In the case of research carried out or commissioned on the council's own initiative, the decision on whether to publish the findings rests with the council itself.

The Council has already made reports to the Minister on energy and on agriculture. It is at present engaged in studying external links between Europe and the United Kingdom, and it is also studying industrial matters. Would it not help the country generally if this advice were made more readily available? What has happened to the Northern Ireland plan? Does it still exist? Will he say something about it?

I thought that the reports were readily accessible. If there are problems, I shall examine them and make sure they are sorted out. The programmes already considered by the Economic Council have been published. Work is still proceeding on the five-year plan. Discussions are taking place with interested parties. I hope that the assessment of the Northern Ireland economic situation will be published shortly.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when Mount Street clinic will be made available for youth or community activities in redevelopment area 31; and what are the starting and completion dates for the floodlit football pitch also promised for this area.

Consideration has been given to leasing the Mount Street clinic for community activities but because of the high cost of putting the premises in order it has been decided to offer the property for sale on the open market. The floodlit all-weather football pitch is only a part of the facilities to be provided in nearby Ormeau park, and it is hoped that work will commence on this expensive facility in June this year. I am confident that the Belfast city council will endeavour to see the project completed as quickly as possible.

Is the Minister aware that this area has had to exist on mere promises? It has been deprived of a proper housing scheme, and now of a proper community facility. When will a community facility be provided to meet the needs of this large housing conurbation?

I should have thought that the expenditure of £600,000 on an all-weather football pitch was an excellent example of the way in which the Government are trying to provide social facilities in South Belfast. It is not for the hon. Member to come to this House asking for more public expenditure while at the same time voting for public expenditure cuts in the United Kingdom as a whole.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Order. I shall take points of order at the end of Question Time, if the hon. Gentleman will be good enough to wait until then.

rose—

It will save the time of Prime Minister's questions if the hon. Gentleman does not raise his point of order now.

Very well, Mr. Speaker.

I am much obliged to the hon. Member.

asked the Prime Minister if he will state his public engagements for 1 February.

This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be hold- ing further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.

Has the Prime Minister had time to consider the great concern felt by many people over the statement by Mr. Arthur Scargill indicating that trade unionists should ignore the legal decision in last week's court case on secondary picketing? Does not that contrast with the right hon. Gentleman's statement last week that there is freedom under the law to cross a picket line? Does he agree that, carried to its logical conclusion, Mr. Scargill's incitement is a recipe for anarchy?

I have noted a great many comments made during the course of recent industrial disturbances. The position of the law in relation to this matter was stated by the Attorney-General. Any private citizen in this country is entitled to express his own view, but I stand on the expression of the Attorney-General which, I think, met with general agreement when he stated the law.

As 1,000 workers have been told that they are to be made redundant at the Plessey works, as 2,500 workers have been told that they are to be made redundant at the Dunlop works, and as we have 100,000 unemployed on Merseyside, is my right hon. Friend prepared urgently to meet the Labour Members of Parliament from Merseyside to discuss this whole question and come up with some positive proposals to deal with one of the most serious unemployment situations in the whole country?

My hon. Friend knows that he does not have to ask me that question publicly for me to be willing to meet himself and his colleagues, as I have done on previous occasions. I should be happy to meet them again. Perhaps he will give me a few hours' notice before we meet. Merseyside is generally regarded as being a serious problem, and I hope that Merseyside will do all that it can to help itself.

As the Prime Minister will have spent some time today considering the grave situation which affects many hospitals, will he state clearly whether it is the Government's policy to encourage volunteers to help the doctors and nurses to carry out their prime duty towards the patients?

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services will be answering a private notice question on this and kindred matters at 3.30 pm this afternoon, as the right hon. Lady knows. I should therefore prefer that any considered comment—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—on the general matters that have been raised about the Health Service and the hospitals was made by him, as I think the right hon. Lady will understand. On the question of volunteers for hospitals, I cannot say that the Cabinet has particularly considered that matter this morning. [An HON. MEMBER: "The Opposition are like a rabble."] With respect, they are not like a rabble, they are a rabble.

What I would say to the right hon. Lady is that it is not acceptable in any community that sick human beings, be they adults or children, should be denied food, and proper attention forbidden to them by the actions of people. [Interruption.] Will Conservative Members please allow me to continue for a moment? Therefore, I trust very much that all those concerned in this dispute will return to work and allow negotiations to continue on a proper basis.

It is not always my task to do what the Prime Minister prefers. As the buck stops with him, I must press him on this matter just a little further. It is precisely because the things about which he spoke are not acceptable, and precisely because many of the tasks could be done by volunteers, that I ask him where his duty lies. Is it towards the patients and towards the doctors and nurses who help the patients? Is he, therefore, prepared to encourage volunteers to go in? In some hospitals they are working well. Will he make his position clear?

I should prefer to leave this to the hospital management committees. They are in charge of each hospital. It may well be that in some hospitals it will be preferable to bring in volunteers. But in other hospitals the management committees may not wish to do so. This is not a matter of Governmental responsibility, although Conservative Members may seek to make it so. What we want to do is to see that the hospitals are kept open and that patients are properly treated, by whatever methods the management committees themselves believe are desirable.

asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 1 February.

I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I have just given to the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. McCrindle).

Will the Prime Minister have a word with the Chancellor of the Exchequer today and suggest that he includes in the emergency Budget, which will be inevitable in two or three weeks, proposals for the introduction of a national minimum wage? This has been SNP policy for some time. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that its introduction would at least go some way towards alleviating the present troubles?

With regard to an emergency Budget, the hon. Gentleman should not assume anything of the sort. In fact, according to the latest figures that I received yesterday from the Department of Employment, the average level of major pay settlements is still a little under 10 per cent. One or two of the more extravagent settlements have hit the headlines, perhaps because of the disruption that they have caused, but that, I am told, is the latest position in relation to private settlements, and that must influence the Government in a number of ways.

The introduction of a minimum wage is always a matter for consideration. But so far there has been no general agreement on its introduction. Clearly, it would have some impact, provided that people who were well above the minimum wage did not insist on maintaining their differentials. But so far we have been unable to get agreement on that.

Will my right hon. Friend take some time off today to examine the dreadful story about Indian girls coming to this country being tested to discover whether they are virgins? What moral justification is there for this? Will he please put aside 10 minutes of his time firmly to rule out such a monstrosity?

I think that the House and hon. Members will have been disturbed at what they have read about this matter. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is inquiring into it, and I am sure that he will want to inform the House if a question is put down in due course.

Will the Prime Minister cancel his engagements for the rest of the day, take the first train to Liverpool and take personal charge of the negotiations with the men who even now are refusing to bury bodies unless they are in a decomposed state? This is causing great distress to relatives. One lady wanted to dig a grave for one of her relatives, was allowed into the cemetery but at the last minute was refused permission to do so. Surely this is a matter which should now have the Prime Minister's personal attention.

I understand that the national leaders of the unions concerned have advised their members to resume normal working. In the light of what the Secretary of State for the Environment said yesterday, I trust that they will take into account the feelings of the House. I understand that the instructions from the national unions have gone out today. We must wait until tomorrow to see whether they have been accepted by the members themselves. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment will make a further statement on this matter tomorrow.

Is the Prime Minister aware that the sympathy which he has expressed for hospital patients and their families would be more readily understood if he used his high office to make a personal appeal for volunteers to ease their suffering?

I am not sure whether that would be the best thing to do. As I have said, there is conflicting advice from those responsible for the administration of our hospitals about whether volunteers would help the situation. I am sure that it is far better that the hospitals themselves should take this decision. That is surely a reason for leaving it to the local hospitals, who know their circumstances best. The Government have no objection to the introduction of volunteers if the local hospital authorities believe that that is the best way of handling the situation.

Will my right hon. Friend today be looking at the agenda for the first meeting between groups of Minister and the TUC with regard to economic problems and picketing? Will the whole philosophy of the "going rate" be under consideration, since in relation to some of the more extravagant claims a number of very responsible trade unionists are now saying "That is the going rate. Do not expect us to settle for less."?

I have heard that view expressed often. It is an interesting reflection that those who said that under no circumstances could they accept a norm now want the going rate. If the going rate is not a norm, I do not know what it is. If everyone gets the same going rate then, as my hon. Friend indicated, everyone else will want to jump on the bandwagon and we shall have leapfrogging. That is why I welcome the approach by some trade union members of the general council who have headed a pamphlet entitled "A better way". Indeed, there must be for this country.

May I make a suggestion to the Prime Minister with regard to the burial situation in Liverpool and the North-West? Since this is a question of deep concern to both sides of the House, and since Liverpool is a city with a great religious tradition, would it not be helpful if the Prime Minister were to appeal to the two great Christian leaders in Liverpool—Bishop Sheppard and Archbishop Worlock—to use their good offices to bring about a settlement of this problem?

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman. I am sure he will be glad to know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment has been in touch with the leaders of the Churches. I believe that they are using their great influence to try to secure a return to work I earnestly repeat what was said by my right hon. Friend yesterday. I trust very much that those concerned will return to work and will take into account the great desolation they are causing to families and those who are bereaved.

asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 1 February.

I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave earlier today to the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. McCrindle).

Is the Prime Minister aware that last week British ports were virtually in the control of workers' soviets? Therefore, will he urgently consider the fact that, whereas the British shipping industry has so far lost £15 million, the chief beneficiary is the Soviet merchant marine fleet which somehow manages to move its cargoes in British ports—cargo which, incidentally, is priced at a figure which clearly indicates a massive subsidy by the Soviet Union?

Without necessarily accepting all the hon. Gentleman's premises, I shall consider the matter.

In the concern and balanced thought which I know my right hon. Friend gives to the problems of the National Health Service, will he today give further consideration to the problem of nurses' pay? This matter is in two parts. There is an immediate problem, because next Tuesday an important Whitley council meeting is due to take place and therefore time is of the essence. Secondly, there is a long-term problem in the reorganisation of the negotiating machinery, which my right hon. Friend will be able to further after we have won the general election.

On the subject of nurses' pay, I remind my hon. Friend that proposals and discussions are taking place to determine a basis of comparability. We could settle all these disputes straight away if we were willing to pay what were asked. However, I do not think that that proposition would commend itself to the country, to the Opposition, or to the taxpayers and ratepayers. Nevertheless, low-paid workers must expect to obtain a reasonable increase in pay to help them, and those higher up the scale can help them to do so. I trust that there will be a return to some co-operation in these matters, as distinct from, I was going to say free collective bargaining, but it would be more true to say the free collective vandalism that is now taking place.