asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many people were out of work in Wales at the most recent count; and how this compares with the figures in February 1974 and May 1979.

I do not know whether it is in order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but I should like to wish Mr. Speaker a speedy recovery from his illness.

In answer to the question, the figure at 6 December 1979 was 85,177, compared with 38,424 in February 1974 and 83,024 in May 1979.

Does not my right hon. Friend think that those figures reflect badly on the previous Labour Government? Why does he think that unemployment in Wales more than doubled when the Labour Government were in office?

It is, of course, true that unemployment under the previous Government went up from 38,000 to a peak of 101,000. It therefore ill behoves Labour Members to give lectures on the subject of unemployment.

Does not the Secretary of State fear that the latest figure will double as a result of what is happening in the Welsh economy, with the rundown of steel and the consequent likelihood of a closure of as many as 22 collieries, the withdrawal of active regional policy and the general collapse of employment in all directions?

As I indicated in my first speech from the Government Dispatch Box, when we came into Government the underlying trend of unemployment was rising. At a time of world recession and economic difficulty, there is a likelihood that unemployment figures will rise, but I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's claim that there has been an abandonment of regional policy. There is an effective regional policy being concentrated on the areas in greatest need.

Since the right hon. Gentleman deplores the increase in unemployment under the previous Administration, will he give a categorical assurance that he will not allow the levels under the present Administration to exceed those reached under the previous Government? Will he tell us whether, in relation to the Inmos project, which could possibly have come to Cardiff—which was one of the three short-listed sites—he was consulted and agreed to the National Enterprise Board being released from the commitment that it gave to me that the production unit would go to an assisted area?

I would not be so foolish as to make firm forecasts about future unemployment trends. I do not intend to follow the example of my predecessor, who told us week after week that the situation was being transformed for the better when, all the time, unemployment was rising. As to the Inmos project, no Government decision has been made on that matter.

:Is it not a fact that, although the underlying trend of unemployment may have been upwards when the Conservative Party came to power, everything that it has done since, whether in terms of regional policy, steel, coal, the high exchange rate or high interest rates, conspires to make the position worse?

I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's remarks on regional policy. We are concentrating help where it is most needed. The interest rates and many of the economic difficulties from which we are suffering arise from the excessive spending of our predecessors and their failure to take necessary action when the time for it was ripe.

:Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is perhaps doubtful whether the Inmos project will succeed anyway, but that it will almost certainly fail if its location is determined by regional policy or political reasons?

I make no comment about the likely success of the project, but there are extremely attractive indus- trial sites in the region, and if the project can succeed anywhere there is no reason why it should not succeed on those sites.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain how he will concentrate regional aid in areas that most need it when, within a short period, each area of Wales will, thanks to the actions of his Government, have an equal need for help?

I do not accept that that is so. There are areas with problems that have been, and always will be, greater than those elsewhere. We have always said that we will look at the allocation of development and special development areas as the situation changed. We shall reconsider those areas as the situation changes.

Regarding the very serious phenomenon of unemployment and the right hon. Gentleman's efforts to combat it, which so far have not been very good, does the right hon. Gentleman accept that in the Deeside area, which is expected to cope with a very serious potential set of unemployment figures in the years ahead, it is generally believed that the £15 million package which he announced last year is now insufficient? Will he consider doubling it to £30 million?

:The hon. Gentleman should not try to give only part of the picture in pretending that all we are doing is spending £15 million on Deeside. I announced that we would be spending £13 million on Deeside in the first year and that that spending programme would continue to develop in subsequent years. There are very attractive sites on Deeside. There are good communications. The labour force has a good reputation. I believe that it is an extremely attractive industrial area.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has for further stimulating the tourist industry in Wales.

The tourist industry makes an important contribution towards the economy of Wales. The Welsh Office and the Wales Tourist Board keep under constant review the most effective use of the available resources.

I welcome my hon. Friend's confidence in the tourist trade and his acknowledgment that it is a major contributor to the Welsh economy. But, although I recognise that the Beavis committee came down against compulsory registration in the tourist trade, will my hon. Friend accept that it is extremely worrying that, for instance, whereas it is estimated that some4,000 farm houses participate in the tourist trade, only 1,400 of them are registered? Will my hon. Friend pay close attention to encouraging more registrations so that the tourist trade can be yet more effective in the economy of Wales?

I understand that Professor Beavis's working party on the registration of tourist accommodation recently completed its review, and I await the Wales Tourist Board's comments on its conclusions, which are, I believe, favourable to the continuation of registration on a voluntary basis. But any moves further to assist and encourage the scheme of voluntary registration must await our consideration of Professor Beavis's findings.

In view of the hon. Gentleman's commitment to tourism, can he say what reduction he has made in the budget of the Wales Tourist Board for the coming financial year?

Subject to the approval of Parliament. I expect the grant-in-aid to remain at this year's level in real terms. The allocation for assistance to tourist projects has been cut by £200,000. But, after allowing for inflation, the amount will be probably a little less than this years allocation of £1·716 million.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in Wales, as in the rest of the United Kingdom, the cost of hotel bedrooms is excessive compared with that in France, which has greater overheads and higher food costs? Will he look into this and consider how the French have made such a magnificent achievement in keeping down the cost of hotel bedrooms and, indeed, the cost of meals by having compulsory fixed-charge meals at all establishments?

I am sure that my hon. Friend's remarks will be noted by the Wales Tourist Board. I shall certainly draw what he said to its attention and to the attention of other bodies connected with hotels and catering.

Has the Minister considered the adverse effect of the latest outbreak of arson on the part of nationalists in Wales on the future of tourism in Wales and the fact that many tourists will be put off coming to Wales? What does he propose to do about it?

The hon. and learned Gentleman will know very well that the firing of homes is a matter not for me but for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. However, the hon. and learned Gentleman is quite right that it may have a very adverse effect on the tourist trade. It is, of course, to be deplored by all of us in this House and outside in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when next he expects to meet the secretary-general of the Wales Trades Union Congress.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when last he met the Wales Trades Union Congress; and when he proposes to meet it again.

I have met the Wales TUC a number of times since I took office, and I hope to continue this practice. I last met it on 29 October, when it met the Prime Minister.

When my right hon. Friend next meets Mr. George Wright, will he draw his attention to the remarkable results of a poll published in The Times today which indicates that the overwhelming majority of trade unionists support totally the Government's proposals to amend the trade union legislation'? Therefore, will he ask Mr. George Wright by what conceivable right he considers that he can use the trade union movement in Wales to batter the Government's policies?

I am sure that Mr. George Wright will note both the poll and my hon. Friend's remarks. It is quite clear that, if the trade union movement in Wales takes that action, it will have a damaging effect on business and, therefore, on job prospects in Wales.

When the Secretary of State next meets the Wales TUC, perhaps he will take the opportunity to explain both to Mr. George Wright and to the overwhelming number of trade unionists in Wales the benefits which have accrued to Wales as a consequence of the Government's policies: first, in eroding regional policies seriously; secondly, in closing skillcentres; thirdly, in cutting the WDA budget by about 30 per cent.; and now proposing to axe savagely the steel and coal industries and those industries which supply them. Does he not realise, therefore, that the Wales TUC and the people of Wales make two demands: a reversal of present Government policies and action to prevent the de-industrialisation of South Wales?

If we are to prevent the de-industrialisation of South Wales—indeed, of Britain as a whole—industry must be competitive and be manned at the levels of our competitors overseas. It does no service to British industry to think that we can put off the day when these necessary and difficult decisions have to be taken. There is very good evidence forthinking—and much of it was presented during the broadcast in which the right hon. Gentleman took part last week—that, because other countries have acted quicker to face the changes in the industrial pattern, their steel in-industries are now stronger than ours and better able to face the challenge of the future.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it does not take opinion polls in The Times or anywhere else to prove that 100 per cent. of trade unionists and all other workers like to have jobs? When the right hon. Gentleman sees Mr. Wright, if he does at some time in the future—assuming that Mr. Wright is willing to see him after the conduct of his disastrous policy—will he take note of the fact that, as a result of his Government's intervention in the steel industry by insisting on stringent cash limits and unrealistic break-even dates, the impact on the Welsh economy could be the loss of as many as 30,000 or 35,000 jobs and prove him and his Government to be the most disastrous in any post-war year and for considerable years before that in adopting a policy of conscious industrial destruction?

The hon. Gentleman says that he and others are good judges of what are the views of trade union members. I note that the trade unions did not seek to obtain the views of their members before launching into their present strike, which undoubtedly is doing great damage to the South Wales economy. We know of at least one industrial company, which already has cancelled its planned investment programme because of that strike. The situation which confronts the British steel industry, its management and its unions—and I am now answering it—is that they have to organise their steel industry so that it can compete in a competitive world.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the company to which he refers would have gone ahead with its project months ago had he not altered his regional policy and made it necessary to renegotiate the package? Can the right hon. Gentleman also confirm that that company has one of the best industrial relations records in Wales? Is he aware, further, that the American management had indicated prior to Christmas that it was considering cancelling the project because of the downturn in the British economy?

I can confirm that under the new criteria we were able to produce selective financial assistance, which would have enabled that project to go ahead. I am aware also that the management of that project has said that its reason for not going ahead is the present industrial chaos and the strikes taking place in Wales.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Mr. George Wright has forecast over the weekend that there will be a 50 per cent. increase in unemployment in Wales? If he is aware of the prediction by Mr. Wright, one of the leaders of the trade union movement in Wales, what are his plans to try to reduce the number of unemployed in Wales that we know will be forecast in the next two months?

On the one hand, it must be right that the country gets its spending plans in line so that too great a burden of interest rates and taxation does not fall on productive industry. But we have also made clear that the Government accept their responsibility to take remedial action in facing the industrial changes taking place in South Wales. We have already announced those measures in the case of Shotton. We are considering the position in South Wales in the light of recent actions and decisions by the board of the British Steel Corporation.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, because of the alarm and despondency about Government economic and industrial policy, the TUC in Wales is to organise a national day of action and protest on Monday? This is intended to bring home to the Government the deep feeling felt by trade unionists in Wales. What action is the right hon. Gentleman taking on the representations made by the TUC in Wales about the import of coking coal? There are large stocks of coking coal in Wales. What action is he also proposing about investment in the Phurnacite plant? This is vital and an urgent decision is required.

I have been asked three questions. The hon. Gentleman suggests that industrial action by the TUC will help the Welsh economy. I cannot think of anything likely to be more disastrous. I wish that the hon. Gentleman had heard the remarks of the head of Merry-weather and Son Ltd. when he announced the coming of its plant to Ebbw Vale on Friday, about the real issues that decide the success or failure of British companies. The hon. Gentleman should be emphasising what is necessary to make successful companies like Merry weather come to South Wales instead of trying to create a situation that will put the company off coming.

On coking coal, the Government have made clear that this is a matter for negotiation between the British Steel Corporation and the National Coal Board. They are free to use the funds being made available by the Government to work out arrangements between themselves. The Phurnacite plant is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. No announcement has yet been made about it.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many advance factories in Ceredigion have not been allocated to potential industrialists and if he will make a statement.

Five out of 29 completed factories.

I am sure that the Secretary of State is aware that certain parts of my constituency have had the highest number of unemployed per head of population in Wales for the past 10 years. What plans has he in mind to help the area? Will he consider upgrading the area to development area status or giving extra financial aid to the Development Board for Rural Wales?

In addition to the 29 completed factories in Ceredigion, the board is currently building a further 10 in Aberystwyth and two in Cardigan. By the middle of the year, there will be a total of 41 units in the area. The board will be announcing further factory development in its new factory building programme. A large part of the hon. Gentleman's constituency enjoys development area status at the present time.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say how his £3 million, or one-third, cut in the funding of the development board is helpful in tenanting empty advance factories?

I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the £6 million provision for the board this year is the same provision as that made in the public expenditure plans of the previous Government. In previous years, some additional funds were made available because of under-spending in other sectors during the year. We are planning for the next financial year on the same basis as our predecessors.

This large area of unemployment in Ceredigion extends south of the River Teify into the Carmarthen constituency. The Teify has long been affected to a certain extent by the policies of the previous Government but particularly by those of this Government.

I am sure that the Development Board for Rural Wales will take note of the hon. Gentleman's representation. I do not think that the greater part of his constituency has such severe problems as some of those lo which the hon. Member for Cardigan (Mr. Howells) referred.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what reduction in the number of Welsh Office employees he expects to achieve during 1980.

It is not possible at this stage to give a precise figure for 1980, but we shall continue to take all necessary action to achieve the total target reduction of 235 by 1982–83 announced on 6 December.

That news is welcome. Will my right hon. Friend keep the functions of the Welsh Office under review in order to identify unproductive activities that can be eliminated?

I can assure my hon. Friend that we are continuing to review all the functions and operations of the office.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that not everyone shares his joy and pleasure at the actual reduction of job opportunities in Government service for young people in Wales? Will he bear in mind that we are also concerned about labour-shedding in other departments in Wales? What is the right hon. Gentleman doing, for example, to save the essential Llanelli skillcentre? Is he conscious of the fact that, as Wales is particularly dependent on small firms that cannot afford their own training schemes, it is an act of lunacy to think of closing a skillcentre in South-West Wales?

I have recently seen the chairman of the Manpower Services Commission and drawn to his attention the many representations that have been made by hon. Members and others about the Llanelli skillcentre. I have emphasised to him the importance with which the skillcentre is rightly regarded in that part of Wales.

Is my right hon. Friend in a position to estimate the increase in the number of employees in the Welsh Office that might be occasioned by the Local Government, Planning and Land (No. 2) Bill that will shortly be introduced into the House?

Estimates we have made of the reduction in overall numbers in the Welsh Office fully take into account any consequences of current legislation.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from local government authorities and other organisations regarding the proposed cuts in public expenditure.

I have received 63 representations from local authorities and other organisations in Wales on reductions in public expenditure.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all hon. Members representing Welsh constituencies have received strong representations from the Welsh Counties Committee and the Council of the Principality representing all the district councils, expressing alarm over the effect on them of cuts in public expenditure? Will the right hon. Gentleman take on his shoulders the responsibility for these cuts and not put it on the councillors who have an impossible task in determining priorities? Such massive cuts have led to a difficult situation in Mid-Glamorgan, where school transport charges have had to be imposed.

I note the hon. Gentleman's comments about Mid-Glamorgan. If he looks at what has happened in other Welsh authorities, he will see that many of them have taken other options. There is no reason for thinking that the choice made by the Mid-Glamorgan council is the only choice. No doubt representations will continue to be made on that point. The hon. Gentleman should not exaggerate the scale of the cuts. They amount to 2½ per cent. over two years compared with cuts of 2½ per cent. in local government expenditure in a single year under the previous Labour Government.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is the view of many of those best qualified in local government that there could be appreciable cuts in local government expenditure without any impairment of the qualiy of services? Is he further aware that there is some anxiety over: the impact of the proposed methods of controlling local government capital expenditure on job creation programmes, which may be carried out in partnership with private sources of finance and could be inhibited by Government legislation under contemplation?

I am sure that there is plenty of room in local government and elsewhere for improvements in efficiency and manning. It is known that local government manning is at record levels at present. The other matter to which my hon. Friend refers is currently being considered in Committee. The appropriate place for discussion of capital controls is in Committee where the Education (No. 2) Bill is being considered.

The right hon. Gentleman referred to school bus charges. Is it not a fact that the Education (No. 2) Bill proposes to give power to local authorities to make such charges? Would not the simplest solution be to delete Clause 23 of the Bill? If the right hon. Gentleman is unwilling to go so far, will he support amendments that the Opposition might propose to the Bill to prevent discriminatory charges on denominational grounds or on grounds of bilingualism as in the case of schools in mid-Glamorgan?

I deplore discriminatory charges and do not consider that they are necessary. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will continue to make that point to the Mid-Glamorgan authority. We have told the Church authorities—I have said it myself—that we shall of course consider all the points that are currently being made in the Committee considering the Bill.

Does not the Secretary of State accept that it is usual and normal in legislation to provide that there shall not be discrimination of one citizen against another under any Act of Parliament? There are plenty of precedents for that—in the Local Government Act, the Water Act and several other Acts. In these circumstances, will not the right hon. Gentleman put pressure on the Secretary of State for Education and Science to accept an amendment that will stop that type of discrimination, which will hit people very hard, particularly families with several children?

One would hope that it was not necessary to write in that kind of rule to prevent discrimination by local authorities in Wales. It is deplorable that it should be considered necessary in this case.

Is the Secretary of State aware that, because of the serious cutbacks by local authorities, rates will be increased during the coming year? Is he in a position to say by what percentage they will be increased?

I am not prepared to give a forecast of rate increases. What I know is that the rate settlement for Wales was particularly good. I am sure that, given restraint by the local authorities, the rate increases can be kept down.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the anxiety about the discriminatory nature of some proposals about school transport fares is not confined to one side of the House? Indeed, it is shared by many of us on the Conservative Benches.

I am sure that it is a matter that should concern all hon. Members. But I repeat that I hope that such views will be expressed firmly to the local authorities involved.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what impact the increase in fees for overseas students is likely to have on institutions of higher education for which he is responsible.

It is too early to say. The picture will not be clear until the early summer.

Is the Minister aware that the Welsh education institutions, and the universities in particular, have a proud record and tradition of helping overseas students, not only in education but in international understanding? Will he therefore use all his powers to safeguard the tradition and reduce the financial effect that the Government's new policy on fees for overseas students will certainly have?

Public sector institutions in Wales have not drawn anything like the same proportion of students from overseas as have some colleges in England. For example, in 1978 the proportion was 8 per cent.; for England and Wales as a whole, it was 20 per cent. The effect of the fee increase will be correspondingly less in Wales. I assure the House that we have not ignored the potential benefits—economic, political and educational—that flow from the presence in this country of overseas students. But these potential gains must be seen in relation to a current subsidy approaching £100 million a year.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the excessive increase in fees implemented by the last Government seemed to have little effect upon the total number of overseas students coming to this country? Will he accept that there is grave concern on both sides of the House that students from the poorer countries have been inhibited from coming here as a result of the increase? Will he ensure that an adequate contingency fund is always kept to see that those students from the poorer countries are given the same opportunity to come to this country and benefit from the high standard of education as those from the richer countries?

One of the reasons why so many students have continued to come, despite increased fees, is the very high standard of our university education and other higher education. Our staff to student ratios are most favourable and our degree courses are shorter and more intensive. A certain number of students from the poorer countries can certainly come through the assistance provided by the overseas aid programme, but I shall bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he will meet the chairman of the nationalised industries to discuss their operations in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he proposes next to meet the chairman of the nationalised industries to discuss their operations in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he will meet the heads of nationalised industries to discuss the operation of their industries in Wales.

Meetings are arranged whenever the chairman or I think necessary.

Last week 10,155 workers in Wales from Port Talbot and Llanwern learnt that they would lose their jobs, while thousands of other workers in the coal mining industry are also to lose their jobs, as a result of decisions by the industries. Has the Secretary of State had any discussions at board level or at local level about those decisions? Will he urgently set up a task force to deal with what will be the most disastrous unemployment that Wales, in particular South Wales, has had since the war?

The news of proposed reductions at Llanwern and Port Talbot was first announced before Christmas. Last week's announcement involves rather fewer reductions than in the earlier options that were being considered. I can confirm that the chairman of the British Steel Corporation came to see me before announcing the options that were to be favoured by the board. I have already made clear that the Government accept their responsibility to introduce remedial measures. Now that we have firm proposals from BSC we are considering the matter urgently.

I am not convinced that task forces are necessarily the best way to organise and co-ordinate. I was interested when I went to Shotton to have that view confirmed by representatives of the local authorities there.

When he talks to the chairman of BSC, will the right hon. Gentleman strongly inquire about the likely fate of the BSC strip metal research centre at Shotton, where an investment of about £8 million and more than 100 jobs are likely to disappear? Can he obtain for me details of the likely compensation for the employees there, and find out whether the Americans are likely to gain the technological information that the centre has? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the chairman that with the redundancies and allied job losses at Shotton now approximating nearly 8,000, that is an unacceptable figure.

I shall certainly make inquiries of the chairman on the points that the hon. Gentleman has raised, and then write to the hon. Gentleman. I note the hon. Gentleman's last remark. He will appreciate that the future of the excellent plant that remains at Shotton very much depends on its ability to sell its products. I am sure that he will agree that industrial disruption can only be damaging to the plant's future.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the Government's plans for the steel industry, especially the unrealistic break-even point, will destroy the Welsh economy and turn South Wales into an industrial wasteland? Will the Government now raise that break-even point, so that the industry's problems can be looked at rationally and sensibly?

It must be faced that the principal reason why the BSC management is producing its present plan is the need to be competitive in a world market and to sell steel. It is its assessment of the present market that leads to the conclusion that it has announced. I deplore the continued suggestion that, however difficult the decisions may be—I certainly do not underestimate the consequence—they will turn South Wales into an industrial desert. I do not believe that that is helpful. Going round many of the industrial sites in Wales and seeing the new companies coming in, and the successful companies operating there, I find that that is not a true picture.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that further to postpone the achievement of competitiveness by increasing subsidies will only lay further burdens on the very industries that should be coming in to provide replacement jobs?

I am sure that that is right. I listened with interest to the views expressed last week in a long BBC broadcast in which the right hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Jones) took part and which included a recording of an interview with me. In that programme people from the continent of Europe and from America pointed to the action being taken there and the fact that overseas competitors were moving ahead of our industry the whole time. That emphasises the need to do at least as well as, and better than, our competitors overseas.

Does the Secretary of State accept that, if there were an import embargo selectively on steel and steel products, as many as 25,000 jobs could be directly saved? Does he appreciate that the effect on, say, a washing machine would be only half of 1 per cent. on the retail price? Does he agree that that would be a reasonable price to pay considering the likely effect of these cuts?

I do not accept that analysis. I believe that import controls would have disastrous economic consequences for this country. I urge the hon. Gentleman to read, if he did not hear, the speech on this subject by the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) in the debate on steel, because the right hon. Gentleman seemed to me to put forward an overwhelming argument against the proposition advanced by the hon. Gentleman.

If the right hon. Gentleman holds that view on selective import controls, will he explain why he wrote the letter to the Wales TUC saying that there was a time and a place when unemployment might be so high as to demand import controls? Surely, the figures that we have been given for steel and for coal indicate that the situation in Wales is not as helpful as the right hon. Gentleman seems to think, but is even gloomier than the Opposition fear?

The letter written from my office, not by me, to the Wales TUC—[Interruption.] I am not arguing; I am just setting the facts right—did not indicate that the steel problem was appropriate for that kind of temporary control to meet a temporary situation, particularly in circumstances of unfair competition by other countries. That has been the position of successive Governments. The position taken by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade, who made the detailed statement on which the letter from the Welsh Office was based, was wholly consistent with the action taken by British Governments over many years to deal with short-term distortions of that kind.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of those replies, I give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.