asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received to date on the effects of financial cuts on education provision.

I have met deputations from all the main teacher unions, the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals of Universities of the United Kingdom and from the TUC. I have also met the Archbishop of Westminster and other Church leaders; and I have received many letters from individuals and representatives of local interests, either direct or through hon. Members.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept that the widely held view in education circles is that the cuts, in conjunction with the Education (No. 2) Bill, will seriously damage mandatory educational provision? It will devastate the non-mandatory sector and abolish virtually all educational welfare provisions such as school meals. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the industrial action that is being taken today by teachers is a reflection of the real concern felt by them, if not by all Conservative Members.

Too long.

Order. Hon. Members must be patient. That is a short question in North Wales.

The hon. Gentleman will not be surprised to hear that I do not accept a word of what he says. The reductions in expenditure are necessary. I believe that they can be achieved without causing damage in the way that the hon. Gentleman suggests. With regard to his comment about teachers, I hope very much that before they consider taking action of any kind they will consider the effect of that action on the children they teach.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that today in Trafford, because of cuts in education, the National Union of Teachers has decided to take limited strike action, despite the fact that the council was prepared last Friday to make concessions? The education of children in Trafford is suffering. Is there any move that can be made to restore full-time teaching in the schools of Trafford?

It is for the Trafford local education authority to decide the way in which it makes reductions in public expenditure. I repeat that I very much regret any action taken by the National Union of Teachers, or any other teaching body, that will harm the educational opportunities of children.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman take advantage of this Question Time to announce what changes he proposes to make to clause 23 of the Education (No. 2) Bill to prevent new impositions on parents? Is he aware that if he does not make substantial changes in this respect he will render denominational choice ineffectual in many schools, impose new impoverishment upon parents who are already demonstrably poor and make it impossible for many parents to afford to send their children to school in rural areas?

No, Sir, I shall not do that at this stage. However, I have made it clear that I shall consider whether it is necessary to put down any amendments on Report. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Report stage is likely to be taken during the early part of next week. I can add only two other comments. First, it is not the intention of the Government in any way to damage the interests of denominational schools. Secondly, the answer to the hon. Gentleman's comment about poor children is that under our proposals local education authorities have power to remit any charges that they may make in any cases which they think are appropriate.

Since school transport and school meals represent the biggest cuts, what will the Secretary of State say to those authorities which decide not to impose these charges, at least in full measure, especially on country and Catholic children? Will they not have to face more cuts in the classroom as a result?

Yes, I fear that that is so. The Government have made it clear that, in the interests of the economy as a whole, these reductions in expenditure must be made. I hope that a large proportion can be made out of charging for meals and transport, rather than in the classroom. If local education authorities choose to do it in another way, that is a matter for them. But it follows, I accept, that if they are to make the reductions and choose not to do it in that way, inevitably it must have some greater effect on the standard of education.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend take advantage of this opportunity to deny that there is any suggestion of cutting back—still less doing away with—the assisted places scheme? Does he agree that there is a distinction between measures designed to improve the economy and those designed to take advantage of that improvement?

I should like to make it absolutely clear to my hon. Friend that the provisions for the assisted places scheme are in the Education (No. 2) Bill that is going through the House. It is my intention that it should start as proposed, but I have always made it clear that the timing and the extent of its implementation must be left in my hands.

Is the Minister aware that the sale by the Staffordshire county council of the land in Llandudno on which the Blackfriars school for the disabled has its holiday caravan is an absolute disgrace? Will he issue directions to counties not to take the consequences of these cuts out on the disabled?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will accept that that is an extremely detailed question, of which I must ask him to give me notice. If he cares to write to me about that matter I shall look into it.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what he expects will be the size of reduction in school rolls in 1980–81 for primary and secondary schools, respectively.

Between January 1980 and January 1981 it is expected that in England and Wales primary school rolls will fall by 180,000, or 4 per cent., and secondary school rolls by 40,000, or 1 per cent.

Does my hon. Friend agree that these reductions allow some scope for a reduction in expenditure but also room for an increase in standards, and that most parents are concerned about standards? Will he tell the House what he is doing to improve standards in education?

I accept the two points that my hon. Friend has made. Over the two years 1978–79 and 1980–81 there will be a 4·7 per cent. reduction in pupils, but the reduction in expenditure will be only 3·5 per cent. That should allow more expenditure per pupil. In any case, educational standards are not just a question of money. They are also a question of core curriculum, discipline in the classroom and the way in which examinations are organised.

Is it not correct that in certain areas, such as Leicestershire, the number of pupils on school rolls will increase? If that is so, will the Minister give a direction to Tory councils, such as that of Leicestershire, that they should not dismiss ancillary workers from their primary or secondary schools, thus devastating standards of education in those schools and imposing a burden on those who can bear it least?

In areas such as Leicestershire, which I accept may be faced with increases in population, these increases will be taken into account for rate support grant and facilities will be provided for the authorities there to maintain, and indeed to improve, standards in the schools.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if, under the assisted places scheme, he intends that parents who could have afforded the fees at the schools in question should be able to obtain financial assistance.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if it is proposed to have some totally free places under the assisted places scheme; and what test will be applied for the award of such places.

Parental contributions towards the cost of school fees under the assisted places scheme will be means-tested. The means test will set an income threshold up to which full remission will be paid, and an upper limit beyond which no help will be given.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm and emphasise that the scale is such that only those children whose parents cannot afford the full fees will benefit from the scheme?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I confirm that the purpose of the scheme is to give certain children whose parents would not otherwise be able to afford the fees the opportunity to benefit from the education provided at the schools which join the scheme.

I welcome my right hon. and learned Friend's reply, but will he give an indication of the level of family income at which parents will no longer be entitled to a free place for their children?

I cannot do that now, but I can tell the House that it is my intention, following the undertaking given by the Under-Secretary, to set out our proposed scale of income later this week so that the House will have knowledge of it before we reach the Report stage of the Bill.

Now that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has announced to the House in a written answer that he has received from schools only half the applications necessary to run the scheme—that is before any sorting out has been done—when will he announce the reduced scale on which the assisted places scheme must now run?

The answer is that the figures given by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State in a written answer yesterday show that to date we have had applications in relation to 10,000 places starting each year. Further applications are still coming in.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend tell the House whether the average cost to the State of a child under the assisted places scheme is likely to be more or less than the cost of keeping that child in a maintained secondary school?

I cannot answer that question exactly at this moment, but in general terms it would be roughly the same.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman recall that he asked schools to enter their applications by the end of January? For how long does he intend to extend the date of application? Will it be until he has enough applications to justify the scheme in his terms?

It is right that we asked for replies by 31 January. It is equally right that replies are still coming in. That is not unreasonable, perhaps, in view of the fact that our letter went out shortly before Christmas, on 6 December. Governing boards tend not to meet over the Christmas period. Answers are, therefore, still coming in.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what guidance he has given, or intends to give, to local education authorities regarding increased or decreased per capita expenditure on physically or mentally handicapped pupils for the financial year 1980–81.

The Government's expenditure plans, as embodied in the rate support grant settlement for 1980–81, assume that, nationally, per capita expenditure on physically or mentally handicapped pupils will be mainatined at about its present level. My Department informed officers of the local authority associations about this assumption last November.

In view of the local authorities' general intention to cut education as a result of Government admonishment, will the hon. Gentleman accept that it is necessary for the Government to indicate clearly to local education authorities that it is not their intention that expenditure should be cut in the case of the most needy and least vocal members of the school community? The Government should put their money where their mouth is and say that they are prepared to fund, if not increase, the support for the mentally and physically handicapped.

I indicated that my Department made this clear last November to the local authority associations. I hope that that will provide some sort of reassurance to the hon. Lady.

As the expenditure on many physically disabled pupils is abysmally low in many areas, is not there a case now for asking for increased expenditure for this small group of people?

The right hon. Gentleman has raised an important point. I hope that he was reassured by the answer that I gave to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Miss Wright). As I said, expenditure has been maintained. Indeed, it has consistently risen over the years, and I have no doubt that local authorities will continue to view this provision with compassion.

Will the Minister tell us what steps are to be taken to ensure that pupils who are physically or mentally handicapped are not discriminated against by the Education (No. 2) Bill? Is he not concerned about the effects of the transport clauses, which will discriminate against mentally and physically handicapped pupils? Unless the Minister is willing to give a specific direction to local authorities and to safeguard the position of those pupils, local authorities will make cuts that will damage their education. Unless the Minister does something, he will be opting out of his responsibilities.

The hon. Lady has gone over an important argument. We rehearsed that argument on and off during 100 hours in Committee and on the Floor of the House. All local authorities, social services and education authorities are aware of their commitments, duties and responsibilities. The Department will keep the matter under constant review and I have no doubt that local authorities will maintain a responsible attitude to these important commitments.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what have been the pupil-teacher ratios of maintained schools in Bootle over the last three years; and what are the anticipated ratios for 1980–81 and 1981–82.

Separate figures for Bootle are not available. For Sefton, the local education authority within which Bootle is situated, the overall pupil-teacher ratios for maintained nursery, primary and secondary schools were 20·6 in January 1977, 20·3 in 1978 and 19·6 in 1979. The local authority estimates that the ratio for January 1980 remains unchanged at 19·6. Projections of pupil-teacher ratios for individual local authorities are not made by my Department.

Is the Minister aware that his figures are probably out of date as a result of a secret meeting that took place last night in Sefton? The Conservative councillors of Sefton decided behind closed doors to cut £1·3 million off an already inadequate budget. They have agreed to policies that will directly affect teacher-pupil ratios. Those policies will force 100 teachers to retire prematurely. They are to amalgamate 12 infant and junior schools. They have gone so far as to cut out swimming lessons in an area that incorporates the Leeds and Liverpool canal—the cause of many deaths. They have even decided to close a special school.

I do not see how my figures can be out of date. Those figures were from January 1977. Whatever strange meeting may have been held last night, and whatever canals were closed in that area, I do not see how it can affect the pupil-teacher ratio of three years ago. As soon as we have received official information about the meeting we shall study it with interest to try to understand the situation in Bootle.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the Government's policy on the use of school facilities by the whole community.

Generally speaking, the use of county school premises outside school hours is a matter for local education authorities and the use of voluntary aided premises a matter for the managers or governors. The Government and my right hon. and learned Friend are anxious to see the widest possible use of school premises for other community purposes. It adds to the importance of the school's role in the community.

Is the Minister aware that I find his reply very disappointing? Is he further aware that many schemes for extra provision are being cut because of the Government's policies? Is he aware also that it is a scandalous waste of resources to lock high quality indoor and outdoor facilities away from the community? He should take some responsibility for this matter and ensure that backward authorities at least know what the enlightened authorities are doing. He should take some initiative to ensure that these facilities are fully used.

The principle behind the right hon. Gentleman's remark is well understood. However, I cannot understand why he finds my initial reply disappointing. There is nothing in the existing legislation that forbids local authorities, school governors or managers from opening those facilities and thereby making a great contribution to the local community. At the same time most members of the community understand that they will have to pay for the use of those facilities. Local authorities are entitled to make an economic charge in respect of services, such as the cost of heating and lighting, as well as any additional payment to caretakers and grounds men over and above their wages.

Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the major obstacles to the use of school premises for recreational or other purposes out of school hours is the reluctance of school caretakers to work extra hours? Will he encourage local education authorities to allow voluntary organisations to staff those premises outside school hours?

Although local authorities are responsible for such decisions, in principle we support any action that a local authority might want to take on that issue.

Is the Minister aware that it is about 15 years since a policy circular was issued by the former Minister of Housing and Local Government and the Ministry of Education? That circular advocated that all local education authorities should make dual use of buildings. To date only a minority of authorities have embarked on that policy. Does the Minister not realise that such action requires direction from central Government, or at least a lead from them? School rolls are falling in many areas. Does the hon. Gentleman agree, therefore, that schools should not be closed and that every effort should be made to use them for other purposes, such as the expansion of vocational and further education?

At the outset the right hon. Gentleman said that the last circular had been issued 15 years ago. The last circular on this theme was sent out in February 1970. As I do not wish to incur your displeasure, Mr. Speaker, I shall not attempt to identify any of the long list of activities that might take place in school premises out of hours. Local authorities are entitled to expand their facilities for use within the community. Hon. Members from all parties will know which schools and colleges in their constituencies are utilised effectively. I do not believe that the picture is bad, but there is room for much improvement.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will reconsider his policy on future grant-aid to the Centre for Information and Advice on Educational Disadvantage following the recent submission from its governing body.

I am giving careful consideration to the detailed document received recently from the centre's governors and will be writing to them shortly.

Will the Secretary of State bear in mind that the unit has been in existence for four years and that it is run on a small amount of money—less than £300,000 per annum? Will he further take into account the fact that the unit has carried out many important projects on the welfare, counselling and education of the disadvantaged? The unit has received splendid support from teaching unions and from schools. Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that it is scandalous that he should suggest closing the unit, when he has not visited it? Will he ensure that someone visits the unit before any decision is made about its closure?

Any decision to close any unit is worrying. However, as the hon. Lady said, the unit costs £300,000. From advice that I received about its achievements, and bearing in mind that its expectations must be based on the relatively limited resources that are likely to be available, I concluded that even that amount of expense was unjustified. I came to the conclusion that there were better ways of achieving those ends. However, since then I have received a letter from the governors, and I am considering their points.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend appreciate that many people have considerable respect for the work produced by the centre, but have genuine reservations and doubts about whether its advice is getting to schools? That is the area of anxiety.

That is true. I felt that the centre was not being widely used by local education authorities, and that it had not been so used in its lifetime. I do not denigrate those who work there. The centre was given an almost impossible task, given the size of its budget.

Has the Minister, or have his hon. Friends, visited the centre to assess the work that it is doing? If not, on what basis was his assessment made? Has he had consultations with the local authorities, including many Conservative-controlled authorities, which are using the centre on an increasing scale? If the Minister believes that the centre's work is not adequately benefiting schools, does he agree that the answer is to increase its funding not to close it?

The hon. Lady in the last part of her question put the dilemma that faces me. On the advice that I have received, I do not believe that the centre, with its present funding, can meet the remit that it has been given. We are faced with the problem of either vastly increasing its expenditure, which I do not believe can be justified, or considering whether it has a continuing valid life.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress has been made in implementing a core curriculum.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what consultations he proposes to have over the recent paper from his Department "A Framework for the School Curriculum"; and when he expects his proposals over the school curriculum to be implemented.

The consultative paper "A Framework for the School Curriculum" was issued by the education departments in January. Consultations with the local authority associations, the teachers unions, the Schools Council and other major interests will be held soon. Our intention is to publish in due course a further document revised in the light of these consultations.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree with the remarks of his Minister of State last month that the possibility of implementing a core curriculum is seriously threatened by the shortage of teachers of mathematics, science and modern languages? What provision does he propose to make to train and retrain teachers to obviate that shortage in primary and secondary schools?

I am concerned about the shortage of teachers of mathematics and science, because this affects the speed at which we can implement the core curriculum that we should like to see. We have specifically asked teacher training institutions to give priority to shortage subjects. I think that at our previous Question Time I announced that we were continuing for a further year the scheme for retraining teachers in the shortage subjects. I accept that that provision is not for a large number, but it is a move in the right direction.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that there is widespread parental concern about the need for greater emphasis on basic subjects, particularly in primary schools? Will he accept that early moves towards the establishment of a core curriculum will be widely welcomed?

I realise that there is widespread concern, and I am pleased with the general support for our document. We do not wish to dictate in every detail what should be taught in schools, but we want to achieve a more general national acceptance of where the emphasis should lie.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that he is proposing to use persuasion rather than legislation to achieve that excellent objective?

Certainly. As I made clear in my main answer, our desire is to have discussions with local education authorities and teachers unions and reach general agreement on the basic framework for curricula for schools throughout the country. I hope that we can achieve that in a spirit of co-operation.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is (a) the average annual fee and (b) the maximum annual fee now contemplated for participating schools in the assisted places scheme.

My right hon. and learned Friend has no fixed average or maximum fee in mind. We shall be considering the responses that we receive from schools individually and not against arbitrary limits of that kind.

Is it contemplated that these places should be brought side by side with empty places in local authority secondary schools? If so, how can the Government justify the scheme, in the light of the plea for more efficient use of public money?

Schools with superb sixth form facilities will take pupils from areas where the maintained sector cannot offer such facilities, particularly in inner city areas. It will be an excellent opportunity for those children.

Does the assisted places scheme extend to schools which offer specialist skills, such as ballet, music and singing, and will it help children who have problems such as dyslexia and need to go to special schools?

Ballet and music schools were exempted under the 1976 Act, and pupils could go to them. We shall consider applications from schools at sixth form level and below where it is felt that pupils would gain advantage from the facilities offered in music, art or languages.

Will the hon. Gentleman accept that his continually repeated emphasis on the sixth form aspects of the schools that he would want to be in the assisted places scheme provides strong circumstantial evidence to support the fears of the National Association of Head Teachers and many other organisations that, in reality, the assisted places scheme will mean piracy of talent at the leadership and inspiration levels from schools in the maintained sector?

Under the system wiped out by the Labour Government, about 2 per cent. of pupils went to direct grant schools. I do not remember hearing complaints from county grammar schools then that they were being denuded of sixth form talent. The maintained schools will retain 80 per cent. of the top 20 per cent. ability pupils, and there is something wrong with them if, on those figures, they cannot achieve good academic results.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the assisted places scheme will give great advantage to children from poor areas, and that that sort of advantage was given to certain Labour Members by the grammar school system?

I agree entirely. I believe that when they are published the figures for acceptance on the means test will bear that out. The scheme will offer superb sixth form opportunities that do not exist in certain areas for pupils whose parents cannot afford to pay.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the assisted places scheme will be found attractive by the more third-rate "bucket shops" in the private sector? Will he accept that, with the shrinking child population and the declining economic situation, those institutions would otherwise be seriously threatened, since even snobbary at some point is insupportable?

It is interesting that we are attacked from the Labour Benches on one side for taking talent from sixth forms and on the other over craft schools or what the hon. Gentleman calls "bucket shops". Labour Members should make up their minds from which side they want to attack.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether there are any proposals to offer financial incentives to attract scientists and mathematicians into the teaching profession; and, if so, what they are.

My right hon. and learned Friend does not rule out that the Burnham committee might consider some form of differential financial incentive, although there are serious difficulties both of principle and of practice to be taken into account.

I am grateful for that helpful and constructive reply, and I hope that the Burnham committee will look at the matter seriously. Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that our major competitive countries in the EEC, such as the Federal Republic of Germany, provide better conditions and pay for scientists, mathematicians and engineers? Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that if we are to get the right quality of teachers in those subjects we must pay them the right wage?

It is open to local education authorities, if they so wish, to appoint suitably qualified teachers to posts in the shortage subjects on a salary scale above scale I.

Is the Minister aware that there is a shortage of mathematics teachers to meet all the demands of industry, commerce and the academic professions? Will he consider a high-powered scheme to second people with mathematical qualifications from industry to teach in schools that have a shortage in a particular subject?

I welcome the hon. Gentleman's suggestion. Discussions are being held with the CBI along the lines mentioned. Our advertising campaign to attract more people to train and retrain in the shortage subjects was launched earlier this year, with 1,000 replies in the first week.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is his policy regarding the transport of immigrant children by bus to different schools in order to avoid a large concentration of immigrant children in one school.

This is purely a matter for local education authorities to determine in the light of the educational needs of the children concerned, local circumstances and the requirements of the Race Relations Act 1976. My right hon. and learned Friend welcomes the fact that most authorities do not find it necessary to bus children from ethnic minority groups.

May I tell my hon. Friend how much I agree with the last part of his answer? Does he agree that such action would generally dislocate communities, except in the most exceptional cases, and smacks more of social engineering than education?

I endorse everything that my hon. Friend has said. It must remain the responsibility of local education authorities. If there are problems within adjoining communities, local education authorities should consult each other closely, together with the ethnic minority leaders.

Will the Minister tell his hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Shelton) that the use of the word "immigrant" is incorrect when applied to children who have been born in this country?

I dare say that my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Shelton) has heard what the hon. Gentleman has said.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what measures he is taking to improve the supply of teachers of science and mathematics in schools.

Teacher training institutions have been asked to give these subjects a high priority, and the Government's training and retraining schemes continue as a valuable short-term measure.

Will my hon. Friend consider a bonus grant system for those students who elect to study mathematics and science at universities or colleges?

That is a suggestion that could come under the review that is taking place within my right hon. and learned Friend's discussions. A number of discussions on this important matter have taken place with both local authority and teachers' associations. We have had consultations with the CBI, as mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, North (Dr. Boyson),to discover whether those with mathematics or science degrees who retire early could be retrained and encouraged to teach these important subjects.

Will my hon. Friend accept that one of the ways to deal with the problem is to recognise that qualifications for teachers are rising and that over the next five years we should aim to pay all teachers more, even in preference to a reduction in the staff-pupil ratio?

If that were possible it would be an ideal situation. It will have to be reviewed closely.

Is the Minister seized of the urgent and pressing need to acquaint school pupils with the demands of new technology? Nothing is being done in our schools in that respect. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that he ought to ensure that enough scientists and technologists go into our schools to provide that information.

This is an important subject, and I shall try to answer as quickly as I can. Through the Standing Conference on Schools Science and Technology, through the organisation of SATROs—that which the hon. Lady will know of—because of our determination to encourage closer links with industry and engineering in schools, because my right hon. and learned Friend has frequently referred to the importance of teaching craft, design and technology in schools at an early age, and from meetings that have been held with the CBI, the TUC and representatives of all the teacher associations, I believe that a number of important steps have been taken in recent months that will bear fruit in the future.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will give details of the changes he proposes to make in student union financing.

My right hon. and learned Friend will announce new arrangements in a written reply to a question later today.

Is not that an insult to the House? Is it not clear that the hon. Gentleman is trying to avoid being questioned on the subject for another six weeks, so that by the time he next stands at that Dispatch Box the scheme will be a fait accompli?

I thought that the House would welcome the fact that at last the Government are taking action over student union financing. We could not have done it from the Dispatch Box, because the answer is too long. Hon. Members will wish to consider the whole scheme, and it is with pleasure that we will announce it today. I warned the hon. Gentleman yesterday that that was the only way that we could do it.

As I understand it, the principle of the answer is a brief one. It is not good enough for the hon. Gentleman to try to avoid the question asked by the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) on the basis of the length of the answer. That is the hon. Gentleman's responsibility. We want the basic information now.

The principle of making student unions more accountable than they are is accepted and understood by both sides of the House. The way that it has been worked out could not be explained briefly in the House, and that is why it will be done by a written answer.