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Schedule 5

Volume 981: debated on Tuesday 25 March 1980

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Minor And Consequential Amendments Relating To Public Service Vehicles

I beg to move amendment No. 70, in page 56, line 24, leave out paragraph 6 and insert—

'6.—(1) Section 146 (regulations of conduct of drivers and conductors) and section 147 (regulations of conduct of passengers) shall apply in relation to inspectors as they apply in relation to conductors.
(2) In sub-paragraph (1) "inspector", in relation to a public service vehicle, means a person authorised to act as such by the holder of the PSV operator's licence under which the vehicle is being used.
(3) In section 14'7(1)(d) the words "or other person authorised by the licensee of the vehicle" shall be omitted.'.

With this it will be convenient to take amendment No. 90, in schedule 9, page 68, line 46, column 3, at end insert—

'In section 147(1)(d) the words "or other person authorised by the licensee of the vehicle".'.

In moving this amendment I promise that I will take no longer than is necessary for the House to appreciate its importance. The amendment makes only small changes to two sections of the Road Traffic Act 1960 but these changes, I can assure right hon. and hon. Members opposite, are of real consequence to bus operators and their staff. Recent events have highlighted the difficulties and dangers the public transport staff face in dealing with some sections of the travelling public. [Interruption.] It is important. I must tell right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite that this is not a laughing matter. If hon. Members were driving the buses they might well appreciate the situation and pay a little more attention to these points. I can assure hon. Members that my speech will last as long as their interjections.

The dangers that the public transport staff face in dealing with some sections of the travelling public are real, and it is important that those public servants should be backed by sufficient and unambiguous authority. Bus drivers and conductors are given a range of powers under the regulations mentioned in sections 146 and 147—[Interruption.]

Order. It is convenient if the Chair at least can hear what is going on.

I can assure right hon. and hon. Members that bus drivers will not appreciate the sort of concern that they are showing. I say again that my speech will take as long as hon. Members' interjections.

Bus drivers and conductors are given a range of powers under the regulations mentioned in sections 146 and 147 of the 1960 Act.

I should like to express here my gratitude to the right hon. Gentleman who leads for the Opposition on these matters for bringing to my attention the slight confusion over the application of sections 146 and 147. Section 146 empowers the Minister to make regulations providing for the conduct of drivers and conductors and section 147 empowers the Minister to make regulations providing for the conduct of passengers, and then goes on to other matters.

By amendment No. 90 it is intended to delete the words
"or other person authorised by the licensee of the vehicle"
in section 174. Bus drivers and conductors have a range of powers under the Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1936, as amended in 1946 and 1975. The powers include the right to check passengers' tickets, demand fares, take names and addresses of passengers who may be committing an offence, and so on.

Unfortunately, under present regulations it is not clear—this is the crux of the matter—whether inspectors are also covered. As inspectors are having increasing contact with passengers, and one-man buses become more usual, because of this lack of clarity—

For the third time—I am determined to continue. We should proceed far more quickly if hon. and right hon. Members could hear me. I am delighted to detain the House because, as a new Member, I have heard right hon. and hon. Members making long speeches. They are being most discourteous.

Inspectors are having increased contact with passengers on one-man operated buses, and we must therefore make unambiguous the regulations governing their powers. The amendment ensures that in future the regulations will apply to inspectors as they apply to conductors and drivers. I sincerely beg the House to support the amendment.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising the matter. He is quite right; there is genuine doubt under the present law whether the powers extend to inspectors. With more one-man operation the more likely it is that inspectors will have contact with the public and need these powers. I commend the amendment to the House.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments made:

No. 71, in page 58, leave out line 1.

No. 72, in page 58, line 10, leave out 'or disc'.

No. 73, in page 59, line 34, at end insert—

'Transport Act 1968 (C73)

In section 159(1) (interpretation) for the definition of "excursion or tour" substitute—"'excursion or tour' means a stage or express carriage service on which the passengers travel together on a journey, with or without breaks, from one or more places to one or more other places and back; ".'.—[ Mr. Fowler.]

I beg to move amendment No. 74, in page 61, line 31, at end insert—

'1. In section 1(5) (power of non-metropolitan counties to make grants) for paragraph (b) substitute—
"(b) to persons providing facilities for sharing motor vehicles not adapted to carry more than eight passengers with a view to meeting the social and welfare needs of one or more communities.".'.
The amendment concerns social car schemes and is fairly non-controversial. I ask the House to support it.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments made:

No. 75, in page 61, line 32, leave out from 'For' to (1) 'in line 33 and in-sert—

'subsections (1) to (9) of section 5 (community bus services) substitute the following subsections—'.

No. 76, in page 63, line 48, at end insert—

'2. Section 6 shall be omitted.'.—[Mr. Fowler.]