asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the date of his most recent contact with the National Coal Board about the new deep mine at Margam.

Within the past week in discussion with the chairman of the board.

I am glad to hear that the Secretary of State has had discussions, because we initiated a debate on this matter on 14 December. I hope that, after three months, he will now start to do something about the new mine at Margam. There are presently 200, 000 people out of work in Wales. The development of the new mine at Margam would create 1, 000 jobs. What is the Secretary of State doing? Is he taking the advice of the Prime Minister's son and sitting on his backside? I might have used a four-lettered word. Is the Secretary of State sitting on his backside—

Order. The hon. Gentleman has asked enough questions.

The discussion that I had with the chairman of the National Coal Board in the past week was one of a number of discussions that I have had with him in recent months on this subject. The position is unchanged from the earlier statements that I have made on the matter. The chairman confirmed that this mine would involve a high capital cost and that, in the board's view, although it would produce an operating profit, it would make substantial losses after taking account of the cost of interest on the investment. The board is investigating all the options, including whether means might be found of reducing the interest cost, and it will keep the project under review in the light of the results of the investigations.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the possibilities for investment in new mines depends to a great degree on the implementation of the closures envisaged in the "Plan for Coal"?

There are a number of loss-making pits and important capital investment projects in existing pits of which we must take account if the board is to return to profit. The balancing of the various interests is a matter for the NCB.

Will the Secretary of State encourage the Coal Board to proceed with this vital development? Is he aware that when I raised the matter with the previous Secretary of State for Energy, the right hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell), some 18 months ago, I was told that it was a matter for the Coal Board?

Given the new confidence at the Port Talbot steel works, the market available to the steel industry generally and the prospect of lower interest rates that the Secretary of State has just mentioned, will he ensure that the Coal Board's financial ceilings are adequate for this important development in employment terms in South Wales?

The right hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware that the NCB's investment programme is about the largest of the major European coal producers. The chairman has told me that, since the project was first considered, there has been a substantial decline in world coking coal prices and in United Kingdom coking coal demand. The board must assess whether there will be a market for the coal produced at Margam if it goes ahead with the project.

Setting aside the closure of collieries in Watford, does the right hon. Gentleman not understand that an announcement of early investment in and development at Margam would mean a great boost to the economy and job prospects in Wales?

I understand the importance of the project, but, as it is a very high capital cost project, it would be wrong to press the NCB to go ahead against its judgment on the viability of that project, as that might prejudice other important investment in the industry.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales by what percentage unemployment has increased in the Deeside travel-to-work area, Clwyd and Wales since May 1979.

Between May 1979 and February 1982 unemployment in the Deeside TTWA, Clwyd and Wales increased by 186.9 per cent., 113·9 per cent. and 110·6 per cent., respectively.

What urgent and decisive assistance will the right hon. Gentleman give to save the 120 jobs at Abbey Mill, Greenfield, bearing in mind that the management has invested £500, 000 in new machinery and that the shop floor has boosted productivity significantly? How safe are the remaining 250 jobs at the Flint (Deeside) Courtaulds mill, bearing in mind that this weekend a further devastating 59 redundancies were announced? Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that monetarism is hanging like a curse over North-East Wales and that we look to him to save our economy?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that that corner of North-East Wales gets the maximum possible financial assistance, and it is attracting some important new industrial development to the area.

I shall be having a meeting with the chairman and senior management of Courtaulds in the near future, at which I intend to discuss the prospects for the various Courtaulds plants.

Has the recent Budget of my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer brought effective help to industry? Is my right hon. Friend aware of the calculation that the net value of this help to industry in Wales is in the neighbourhood of £50 million and in Clwyd is probably £8 million?

I cannot confirm the accuracy of any specific figures as they may be broken down. What we have is the value of the industrial package to industry as a whole. However, I can confirm that it is substantial and that it may be consistent with the kind of figures that my hon. Friend spelt out.

The energy package, for example, will be of considerable importance to a large number of major Welsh employers.

Do not these figures show the scale of disaster that has befallen Deeside, Clwyd and, indeed, the whole of Wales, where now we have one in six of our people out of work? Is it Government policy ever to return to full employment? If so, when are we likely to get there, how many jobs are needed before we get there, and what is the Secretary of State doing about it?

The right hon. Gentleman should know by now that to proclaim enormous reflationary packages, which is apparently the policy of the Labour Party, is not a sure road to future employment. We saw that in the record of the Labour Government. I do not underestimate the extent of what has happened in Clwyd, but we saw even more substantial percentage increases in unemployment in places such as Ebbw Vale during the period of the Labour Government. My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his recent Budget, has reinforced the important general economic factors that are beginning to take effect—the fall in world oil prices and lower interest rates.

Does the Secretary of State accept the significance of what he said to the whole of North Wales? An increase of 186 per cent. in unemployment in Clwyd and the fact that it gets the maximum possible incentives for industry make it next to impossible to develop industry further west. The new road will not be completed until 1988–89. In the meantime, we need direct investment. Will the right hon. Gentleman look at the effects on Clwyd and the rest of North Wales and get something moving in that direction?

It is because we recognise the problems of the remoter areas that we attach such enormous importance to our road programme, which we have maintained throughout the period of economic stringency, and why recently we set in motion a chain of road developments to improve communications to Gwynedd, including the most recent one for Anglesey, initiated only last week.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the pupil-teacher ratio in secondary schools in Wales at the most recent count; and how this compares with the ratio in 1978.

The ratio was 16·6 to 1 in January 1981, compared with 16·9 to 1 in 1978.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that this improvement in the pupil-teacher ratio in secondary schools in Wales has occurred in all the counties of Wales?

The ratio varies between LEA areas and reflects their circumstances and policies in the deployment of teachers. With one exception, where the level has remained the same, the pupil-teacher ratio in all Welsh counties has improved since 1978. In mid-Glamorgan, for example, it has improved from 17·1 to 16·8.

Will the Minister now tell his hon. Friend the Member for Leek (Mr. Knox) and the House that other factors that influence Welsh education policy are just as important as the pupil-teacher ratio? I have in mind, for example, the per capita expenditure of each authority.

The per capita expenditure, too, has improved. The hon. Gentleman is right about there being other important factors, though teachers must be regarded as the most important resource in the education service.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will take further steps to encourage pupils at secondary schools in Wales to leave school with adequate qualifications.

We shall continue to encourage all those concerned with education to seek to improve the attainments of pupils, whether in public examinations or otherwise. As I said in the Welsh day debate, next week I intend to issue a discussion paper about the problems of under-achievement and related issues.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that helpful reply. When he considers all these matters, will he have uppermost in his mind the best deployment of resources and ensure that resources are deployed fairly between the rural and poorer parts of Wales and the urban areas?

Expenditure per pupil in secondary schools is increasing in real terms. The planned figure for 1982–83 is £808 at 1980 survey prices, compared with £773 in 1978–79 on the same price basis. The very considerable resources available for education in Wales should be used to the best possible advantage. The publication of "Planning for Progress" is designed as a new start in the battle against under-achievement.

Can the hon. Gentleman assure this year's school leavers in Wales that he will find jobs for them within the next three years?

No Minister concerned with education in Wales has ever been able to give that assurance, however desirable it might be.

As a means of encouraging teenagers to stay on at school and take up courses in excess of 21 hours a week at colleges of further education in order to gain adequate and further qualifications, will the Minister seek to persuade the Government to change the rules for the payment of supplementary benefit so that these young people become eligible for such payments?

I can make no statement on that matter today.

As one factor in the lower number of Welsh children taking examinations appears to be the unwillingness of some of the teachers unions to have the same dates of examinations as those in England, will my hon. Friend look into the possibility of having talks with all the teachers unions to review this problem?

The system of having separate dates for examinations in England is not, in my judgment, of any significant benefit to the children of England.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many non-British electronics firms have established manufacturing facilities in Wales; and how many have indicated to him their intention to do so.

I know of 12 such firms now operating in Wales. One is in the process of setting up. My Department is currently in discussion with other firms about the possibility of doing so.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that we need to attract such firms to Wales if we are to avoid the errors of the past of being excessively reliant on out-of-date technologies? The importance of every factor which might attract such industries is vital, including an absolute assurance that this country will remain a member of the European Economic Community.

I note the results of a recent American survey, which showed that some 60 per cent. of the electronics firms interviewed would find the United Kingdom either no longer suitable or less suitable than now as a base for European operations should we withdraw from the EEC.

Has the right hon. Gentleman yet been able to establish that Inmos, for example, expects to sell only 10 per cent. of its products in Europe, with a further 10 per cent. in Japan and 80 per cent. in the United States of America? Does he appreciate that the latter two countries already have tariff barriers? Does he not appreciate that Britain's real need at present is to have a free market in agricultural products if it is to remain competitive, because butter, for example, would then be 40p a pound cheaper in the shops?

I am not sure how the price of butter arises from a question about electronics firms. However, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that Mitel, which provides an enormous number of new job opportunities for his constituents, would not have established itself in Gwent if it had not been for our membership of the European Community.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for the Secretary of State to refer to Mitel as being in my constituency when it is in Monmouth?

Order. I remember that I made similar mistakes in the days when I sat on the Government Benches.

How many of those 12 companies are indigenous Welsh companies? Does the Secretary of State agree that there is a need for more home-grown microelectronic concerns? Will he confirm that last year, of the 160 companies or concerns in Britain that received grants under the microelectronics schemes, only three were located in Wales?

Mr. Speaker, perhaps I may comment on the point of order. I did not suggest that Mitel was in the constituency of the hon. Member for Newport (Mr. Hughes). I suggested that it would provide many job opportunities for his constituents. That is quite clear.

I confirm that the companies I listed were overseas companies. I can also tell the hon. Gentleman that in a speech that I made to the Development Corporation at a meeting in the House of Commons last week, I made the very point that he made about the importance of encouraging local electronics firms to set up and the essential interdependence of the growth of local firms with the arrival of overseas companies.

Has the Secretary of State seen the figures published by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury showing that the net difference between receipts from the EEC and our payments into the EEC have from 1973 to 1981 cost Britain about £1 million a day? How many more manufacturing jobs could that have created in Britain and Wales?

I do not believe that many manufacturing jobs would be created in Britain and Wales if we deprived ourselves of our largest and fastest growing markets.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales, further to his intervention, Official Report, 25 February, column 1039, if he will make a statement on his discussions with the Independent Broadcasting Authority, the Welsh Fourth Channel Authority and Harlech Television.

My discussions were informal and enabled me to form a balanced picture of the considerable activity that is taking place in preparation for the launching of the new channel.

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his reply. In view of what was said in the Chamber during the recent Welsh affairs debate, will he give an assurance to the people of Wales that everything is well and that the Welsh channel will be operating from the day that has been suggested in the autumn?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that I have no direct responsibility for broadcasting matters. However, I took the view that the intervention by the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) during the last Welsh day debate was a quite unjustified attack on the responsible members of the Welsh television channel authority. I thought that it was an attack that I should deplore immediately, as I did in an intervention. Recently, I have met not only members of the authority but senior representatives of HTV. I am certain that the authority is proceeding in a sensible way with these important negotiations to establish the new channel on a successful basis.

Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the press release issued on 1 March—the day of the inauguration of the fourth Welsh channel—regarding the independent producers, whose aims, apparently, are concerned with the culture, problems and aspirations of the Welsh nation? Will he comment on that, because many Welsh speakers do not agree with that summing up?

I should have thought that it would be the wish of every hon. Member to further the culture and and aspirations of the Welsh nation. I find it utterly astonishing that the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Dr. Thomas) should wish to dissociate himself from such a worthy objective, just as I thought it deplorable that in the Welsh day debate he associated himself with quite unfounded accusations of some kind of gravy train being involved.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he next contemplates meeting EEC Commissioners in Brussels to discuss employment in Wales.

I have no immediate plans for such discussions so soon after my visit in January.

Is it not time that the right hon. Gentleman reminded the Commissioners that manufacturing jobs in Wales have dropped by a quarter during the past 10 years that we have been members of the Common Market? Will he also take into consideration the millions of pounds that we have paid to the Common Market in membership contributions? Does he agree that had that money been available to attract firms, we could have brought thousands of jobs to Wales?

As I have already pointed out, there would be no way of attracting jobs if we could not provide markets. The EEC provides by far the most substantial market. It is astonishing that the hon. Gentleman, whose constituency will benefit most from our membership, should take that line at a time when the British steel industry is utterly dependent on the coherent and cohesive steel policy now being followed in Europe and when important firms such as Mitel are establishing themselves close by.

Will my right hon. Friend explain to the hon. Member for Newport (Mr. Hughes) a few elementary facts about Britain's overseas trade: that we have always been in deficit with other manufacturing areas with which we have traded; that our coverage of imports by exports is better with the EEC than with either the United States or Japan; and that to conduct trade on a purely bilateral basis is no kind of policy for a country such as ours which is dependent on world trade?

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. One of the most encouraging and striking features of the past several years has been the improvement in our export performance with countries in Western Europe.

The right hon. Gentleman cannot possibly agree with the inaccuracies of the hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer). Has his Department estimated the loss of manufacturing jobs in Wales as a result of the large manufacturing deficit between the EEC and the United Kingdom in the last two years? Will he put a figure on that for Wales? My constituency has certainly lost jobs as a result of those manufacturing imports, and it has 300, 000 sq. ft. of empty factory space to show for it.

There is no evidence for the view that Hoover's lack of competitiveness can be attributed to the Common Market. Indeed, it is likely that we would still have faced severe competition from Europe had we remained outside the Market, without the opportunities that membership provides. The people of Wales should note the concerted hostility of the official Opposition to membership of the EEC, which provides the best opportunity there is for new job creation in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many public sector tenants had completed the puchase of their homes by 31 December 1981 under the provisons of the Housing Act 1980; and how many offer notices have now been issued.

A total of 8, 086 sales had been completed by 31 December 1981, against 26, 188 offer notices issued.

Does my hon. Friend recognise the fact that almost 56 per cent. of the people of Britain now own their own houses, which is a great step towards a property-owing democracy? [HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."] I compliment my hon. Friend on the efforts of the Welsh people to that end, but will he now confirm completion dates for those properties—[HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."]—that had notice served on them prior to 3 April 1981? When will they now be completed?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his compliments. The sale of council houses has been a great success in Wales. As to his request that we should fix a date for completions, he will know that that is very much under consideration.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for the hon. Member for Montgomery (Mr. Williams) to read from a piece of paper recently handed to him by the hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. Best)?

The hon. Gentleman was raising his eyes a great deal.

Will my hon. Friend publish a league table on the performance of the various district councils in respect of the sale of council houses, and in particular the average completion time for each district council?

We publish lists of local authorities, which are placed in the Library, which give an analysis of their position on council house sales.

If the hon. Gentleman is so concerned about the completion time for the sale of council houses, why is he not equally concerned about the time that it will take for the 25, 000 people in Wales who are waiting for council houses to get the chance of having homes of their own?

I am concerned about waiting lists. I have more than once stressed in the House that local authorities that have benefited through capital receipts from council house sales should apply those receipts to increasing housing provision.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to announce the result of the review of the status of Mid-Wales for regional development aid.

The future status of parts of Mid-Wales forms part of a wider review of assisted areas throughout the United Kingdom. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry, whose responsibility this is, hopes to announce the results of the review some time in the next two or three months.

In playing his part in the review, will my right hon. Friend underline the fact that the problems of rural sparsity in Mid-Wales are unique in all of England and Wales? Will he also emphasise the conviction of the Development Board for Rural Wales that the continued effectiveness of that successful body would be gravely undermined if Mid-Wales did not retain some sort of development status?

There are problems of rural depopulation and sparsity in a number of other places in the United Kingdom. However, I confirm that those are factors that should properly be taken into account in the review and that we shall be seeking to develop policies that properly take account of them. I assure my hon. Friend that those matters are very much in our mind.

Will the Secretary of State assure the House that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry will take into account the ratio of manufacturing jobs in each region? Does he accept that removing assisted area status from the area covered by the board would severely undermine its operations?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that we take all such factors into account. I entirely appreciate the need to maintain effective incentives to encourage the sort of policies that have had such success in the past year or two.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bring to a speedy end the present situation whereby there are two types of status for rural areas in Wales—one status within the DBRW and another locked into a disadvantage outside the board?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, that situation was created by his right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris), and I have no immediate plans to change it.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received regarding the threatened closure of the Prince of Wales orthopaedic hospital, Rhydlafar.

We have received 86 representations and a petition of more than 170, 000 signatures, which was presented to the Welsh Office last Wednesday by a deputation of which the hon. Gentleman was a member.

There were actually more than 180, 000 signatures and they demonstrate the very strong feelings in Wales. Has the hon. Gentleman seen the letter in today's Western Mail from Mr. Meurig Williams, who has done pioneering work on spinal injuries? Will the hon. Gentleman reject the claim of the South Glamorgan health authority that one reason why the hospital is to be closed is the failure to recruit nurses? There were 200 applications for seven jobs at the hospital.

I ought to make the position clear. No decision has been taken on the future of the hospital. The South Glamorgan health authority has approved closure in principle. There are consultations involving the Mid-Glamorgan and Gwent area health authorities and those consultations will finish at the end of this month. Of course, the consultations involve proposals for alternative services for orthopaedic patients, which would result in an additional 42 beds. The health authorities will obviously consult further after the end of the consultation period and will, or will not, make proposals to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.

Are not the health authorities, including South Glamorgan, making decisions and even going to consultation under the duress of severe cuts in resources for the Health Service in Wales, which make them offer the option of the closure of a hospital which, in other circumstances, they would not want to close?

I must disillusion the hon. Gentleman. He has forgotten that the Welsh Office offered £800, 000 to South Glamorgan in 1980, and that offer has not been taken up. I also remind the hon. Gentleman of what I said earlier. The consultative proposals under discussion involve an increase of 42 beds.

Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that the reason for the public concern over the proposed closure of Rhydlafar is the renown of the hospital, because of the work done both on the present site and, formerly, in Richmond Road, Cardiff? Will he undertake to explore every avenue to ensure that the necessary finance is made available to keep the hospital in being—it is clear from his previous answer that he has given some consideration to the matter—so that the specialist treatment that the hospital has given over the years, especially to children, continues, thus avoiding the long waiting lists in orthopaedic wards in other parts of Wales?

I fully appreciate the affection in which the hospital and its staff are held by the people whom they serve in South Wales. My right hon. Friend has an open mind about the future of the hospital and I am sure that he will take every aspect into consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the total payment expected to be made during 1981–82 by the Severn-Trent water authority and the North-West water authority, respectively, to the Welsh water authority in relation to the water they abstract from Wales.

In 1981–82, sums of £1, 340, 000 and £323, 700 were payable respectively by the Severn-Trent water authority and the North-West water authority in respect of bulk supplies of water from Wales. A further £203, 000 and £2, 301, 300 were payable respectively by those authorities in respect of bulk supplies from the English parts of the WWA's area.

Does the Under-Secretary accept that those are wholly derisory payments for the water taken from Wales and amount to only about 1 per cent. of the WWA's turnover? Does he accept that a payment of, say, 25p per 1, 000 gallons would give Wales an income of £40 million, which would be enough to bring down the water rates in Wales by between 20 and 40 per cent? What is the latest position on the proposal for increased payments, put to the Welsh Office by the WWA in October?

I do not regard those millions of pounds as derisory and I am sure that the WWA does not. There is a dispute between the Welsh authority and the Severn-Trent and North-West authorities. We were notified of that in September last year and as it was the first reference to my right hon. Friends under the legislation we were naturally anxious to agree the correct procedure for dealing with it. A memorandum of principles and procedure was sent to the water authorities concerned on 16 February and the Welsh authority was asked to submit its representations by 16 March. We have not received those representations, but we are still hopeful that the decision will be made in May.

Is my hon. Friend aware that my constituents in Halesowen and Stourbridge are customers of the Severn-Trent water authority and that I receive many complaints about its high charges? Will he therefore please ensure that no representations from the hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Wigley) have any effect in increasing those charges?

All such factors will have to be taken into account by my right hon. Friend. It is as well to point out that, on the basis of combined average domestic bills for the coming year, Wales is about third in the league table of water authority charges in England and Wales.

Does not the Minister realise that the transfer of water from one water authority to another on a no-profit, no-loss basis can be justified only so long as there is no wide disparity between the charges levied by those water authorities? If the Labour Government's Water Charges Equalisation Act 1977 was defective, which I dispute, why did not the Government either improve or modify the Act rather than abandon it and thereby cost the Welsh water authority at least £3 million a year?

The right hon. Gentleman must really get this matter into perspective. The amount obtained by the water authority from equalisation was a decreasing amount. The effect of the Act was eccentric. It drove an increasing number, 42 per cent. in all, away from the median of charges. I know of no other system that does not have this kind of perverse effect.

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I shall continue to seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give the total estimated number of house improvement grants made in Wales during the current financial year.

It is estimated that some 5, 200 house improvement grants of all categories were made by Welsh local authorities between 1 April and 31 December 1981. Following the Chancellor's statement last week, I expect the number of grants to go up significantly as householders take advantage of the 90 per cent. maximum rate of grant for the limited period to 31 December 1982.

Will my hon. Friend make sure that people are aware of the dates between which these new grants apply? Is he able to say how much of the money involved is coming to Wales?

With regard to the latter part of my hon. Friend's question, the Welsh share of the sum to which the Chancellor referred is £4·8 million. We shall make every effort to publicise the availability of these grants.

Does the Minister accept that the increase in the percentage ceiling on grants is not much good if local authorities lack the funds to pay discretionary grants? This has been the case, in many instances, in the last year in Wales. How will the Minister ensure that there are adequate funds to enable authorities to meet requests when they are received?

The hon. Gentleman will have heard me refer to the capital receipts available to local authorities from council house sales. Welsh local authorities are likely to show an underspend on their total housing budget in the current year. So there is money available. I exhort local authorities, particularly those that may not have been paying up to the maximum percentage of the grant available, to do so forthwith.

Will the Minister consult his colleagues and reconsider the decision to set an end date for the 90 per cent. grant? I am sure that the Department can provide figures to bear out my recollection that when the grant was last increased to 75 per cent. an unfortunate by-product was the large number of cowboy builders who came into Wales, with the result that some very poor improvement work was carried out.

We are anxious to give an immediate boost. That is what the increase in grant percentage has done. I must remind the right hon. Gentleman that it is all very well pressing for a continuation of the 90 per cent. grant—it is a considerable percentage—but we must live within what the country can afford.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairperson of the Development Board for Rural Wales to discuss industrial investment in Mid-Wales.

I met Mr. Leslie Morgan on 22 December 1981, in the context of the board's expenditure proposals for 1982–83.

Will the Secretary of State say whether he was able to show Mr. Morgan that there will be no reduction in the board's budget for next year in real terms?

I have decided on a budget allocation to the board in 1982–83 of £11·4 million gross. This will enable the board to maintain its expenditure at around the same levels as previously planned and will facilitate further job creation.

As my right hon. Friend has credited the DBRW with the creation of 600 jobs in Mid-Wales in its first four years, will he confirm that this has been a remarkably cost-effective exercise, demonstrating the importance of continued intermediate aid status for Mid-Wales and the continuation of the DBRW?

I do not think that I can add to what I have already told my hon. Friend on that subject.

All hon. Members are aware of the excellent work done by the Development Board for Rural Wales. However, can the Secretary of State explain why there is 25 per cent. unemployment in some parts of the development board's area in Mid-Wales?

I think the hon. Gentleman is well aware that certain towns have a record of high unemployment going back over many years. Some of the tourist centres especially tend to have an unemployment level that fluctuates considerably. The DBRW is concentrating on certain growth areas. It has proved remarkably successful, notably in the first two months of this year, in attracting fresh investment. The overall level of unemployment in the board's area is a good deal lower than in many parts of the United Kingdom.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what guidance is given to incumbents as to the desirability of opening their churches.

None, Sir, because this does not fall within the responsibility of the Church Commissioners. It is for the incumbent and parochial church council to take a decision as to whether and for how long its church should be open to the public.

I recognise that the Church Commissioners have no responsibility in this area. Does my hon. Friend share my deep concern that most churches are permanently locked against the vandal and the thief, thus depriving ordinary people of entrance to them? Does he not consider that it would be a good idea if suitable people offered their services to vicars and incumbents as church watchers, who would guard churches for certain periods during the day? This would enable churches to be open and so permit all citizens to use them for the purposes of the soul.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his understanding of the limitations of the responsibilities of the Church Commissioners. As an individual, I share his anxiety. This, alas, is a factor of our present life that extends far beyond churches. But churches are a good example of the problem of leaving premises unattended.

I wish to support my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) in his request for keeping open churches. I spend what little spare time is available to me visiting churches. Is my hon. Friend aware to what extent vandalism and hooliganism within churches is increasing or decreasing?

I am afraid that I have no statistics that I can give my hon. Friend. I thought the original suggestion of voluntary wardens was helpful. I hope that it will attract publicity. I share the anxiety expressed by hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North (Mr. Atkins). I think he will find that a note will be found in most well-run churches explaining where the key can be obtained on application.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this problem is by no means new, as the number of watching chambers dating from the Middle Ages bears witness? Is he aware that the solution suggested by the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) deserves wide adoption? Does he agree that when it is not possible to have a roster for watching, a roster for ensuring that a means of opening churches is available would be second best?

The right hon. Gentleman makes an extremely helpful comment. It is a fact, I suggest, that in former years we were somewhat more robust in dealing with those who were discovered doing these things. We shall, perhaps, have to reconsider this aspect of the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry, pursuant to his reply to the question of the hon. Member for West Lothian on 15 February, Official Report, column 14, what discussions there have been with Plessey and the management group that is seeking to buy part of the Bathgate business from Plessey.

The Scottish Office and the Department of Industry have been in touch with Plessey on the situation at Bathgate, and the Scottish Office has had discussions with the management group.

Does the hon. Gentleman think that the Arcotetronics offer of 80 jobs is genuine?

My Department and the Scottish Office are well aware of the overseas company's interest, which is, in our view, serious. It is possible that the company will be asking more formally about what support is available from our Department.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry when he expects to license Transtel telex teleprinters for independent private sector supply from July 1982 in accordance with the provisions of the British Telecommunications Act 1981; and if he will make a statement.

My hon. Friend announced on 16 November that the target for liberalising the supply of telex teleprinters is October 1982. The necessary standards are being written and I hope that they will be completed, published and approved by October so that the independent approvals body can begin testing equipment for private sale.

Three kinds of telex teleprinter have already been evaluated by BT and are being supplied by BT to the public. I am actively exploring possible arrangements under which all manufacturers, including Transtel Telecommunications Ltd., might be given freedom to supply the same equipment direct to the public prior to October and possibly before July 1982. The issue is complicated by BT's plans to modify the telex network, which will make it necessary to alter existing telex teleprinters. I hope to announce a decision soon.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply and congratulate him on the enthusiastic way in which he is seeking to liberalise BT's monopoly. Is my hon. Friend aware that BT has technical reservations about private sector maintenance of telex teleprinters? Will he examine the situation in the United States, where the public network operator has the right, with the agreement of the private sector maintenance companies, to uninhibited access to these machines? May I draw my hon. Friend's attention to his comment on technical changes in telex exchanges? Does he agree that the development in telecommunications on exchanges and in attachments has been evolutionary? Does he agree that if the development of one had not depended on the mutation in another, we would not have got very far?

Order. We have taken longer on this question than we took on the previous three questions.

I shall be brief, because my hon. Friend's questions are so technical. I understand that BT does not have the powers that exist in the United States. I have no doubt that we shall reach a satisfactory conclusion on the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is now in a position to reply to the Education, Science and Art Committee's report on "Public and Private Funding of the Arts" an interim report on works of art, their retention in Great Britain and their acquisition by public bodies.

I hope to publish the reply before Easter.

Is the Minister aware that it is nearly a year since the report was put before him? Does he intend that his reply before Easter will be taken into account in this year's Finance Bill, and that action will be taken this year on the terms of his reply? Does he agree that the matter is urgent, since petty bureaucrats in the Treasury should not be allowed to stand in the way—as we found in our Committee—of the sensible retention of works of art in Britain?

The Treasury has been its usual helpful self on this, as in many other matters. I shall not anticipate the reply, which will be with the House before long.

Does the report concern the export of works of art from the United Kingdom, or exclusively from Great Britain?

Except in the most tangential way the report is not concerned with the export of works of art.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the report, which was unanimous, was given further unanimous backing in the debate in the House on 15 February? Is my right hon. Friend further aware that if a flood of works of art comes on to the market in the next year the admirable national heritage memorial fund will be unable to cope? Does he agree that unless some of the proposals in the report are adopted by the Government we could face a disaster that would make Mentmore appear to be a tiny local incident?

I hope that that will not happen. I am well aware that the report is unanimous. That fact has been brought to my attention on more than one occasion. Hon. Members have also brought it to the attention of my right hon. and hon. Friends. We shall do the best that we can. I am well aware of the views of the House.

If the Treasury has been its usual helpful self, does that mean that we must blame the Minister for the Arts for having taken so long?

The Government as a whole must take responsibility for the timing and content of replies to Select Committees. We have just had a parliamentary debate, which has to be studied by a number of Departments. I hope that the reply will not be long in coming.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress is being made on the construction of the new British Library.

The first contract for work on the new British Library building was awarded last month. The contractors plan to begin work on the site immediately after Easter.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his reply will be welcomed by enthusiasts of the project? When does he expect the first phase to be completed?

The phases are divided into many separate sub-phases and groupings. After the preliminary work we shall start phase 1A(a) in the autumn. That will cost about £88 million and will take several years to complete. The process is long and complicated, but we are pressing ahead as rapidly as possible.

Does the Minister agree with the estimate of £600 million over a 10-year period?

No, I do not think that I agree with that. The project is enormously complicated and expensive. It will have to be revised from time to time as circumstances change. "One step enough for me" should be our motto. This is sensible and has met with general approval throughout the House.

As far as the building itself is concerned, did my right hon. Friend notice the comment of a critic, prompted by the buildings at the National Theatre and the Barbican who said "When I hear the word 'culture' I call for my concrete-mixer". Can my right hon. Friend explain why it is necessary for the cultural muses to be pursued in buildings of such spectacular ugliness?

If my hon. Friend lives long enough to see the British Library completed, I hope that he will not think that it is a building of spectacular ugliness. I think that it will be quite a nice building. It is extraordinary that Britain has not made a start on building a new library before. We are way behind the Library of Congress, for example. It is generally recognised to be of great importance.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he has to make appointments to the Arts Council from persons living in the Northern region.

I am always ready to consider the appointment of persons with suitable qualifications and experience, wherever they live. But members are not appointed in a representative capacity or by virtue of their residence in a particular region.

I accept that there is a case for non-regional appointments to the Arts Council, but is there not equally a case for regional appointees? Would not a mixture be advantageous to the arts and the Arts Council generally? Is the Minister aware of the strong feeling in the North of England that we are as neglected in the arts by this Government as we are in industry? Will the Minister reconsider appointing people from the North, particularly since no one from the Northern region has ever sat on the Arts Council?

On a rough calculation, out of the 18 members of the Arts Council, plus the chairman, no fewer than eight live outside London. Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Dorset, Scotland and Wales have representatives. The council contains many members from outside London. I cannot guarantee to appoint a person from a specific area. I am astonished that the hon. Gentleman should say that the North has been neglected. The Northern Arts Association receives more money than any other regional arts association in England.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is harmful to the region, with its various problems, to suggest that it is neglected in terms of the arts? Is my right hon. Friend aware that currently the Royal Shakespeare Company is appearing at our theatre in Newcastle—the capital of the North—and that the Oslo Philharmonic Orchestra, appearing at the city hall, is playing to a highly appreciative audience? Is he aware that the Laing art gallery in Newcastle upon Tyne has a national and international reputation?

That shows that the North does well in the arts. The hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Dormand) grossly exaggerates his case.

Is the Minister aware that Dr. Richard Hoggart, who was born and brought up in Leeds—which is in the North of England—has just been sacked?

I do not think that Leeds is covered by the term "Northern region". If we are to bandy names, I must tell the House that the secretary general of the Arts Council comes from Yorkshire and the deputy secretary general from Durham.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps he is taking to increase the effectiveness of the information services for which he is responsible.

My advisory council on library and information services has recently published a report on future developments in this field. A copy is available in the Library. The report makes many valuable recommendations, and my Office is pursuing with those concerned the most urgent tasks identified by the council.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that information services are vitally important as part of the library services? May we have an assurance that up-to-date information technology will be included in future? Will my right hon. Friend keep in touch with the Minister for Industry and Information Technology about the matter?

Yes. I am in constant touch with him. I entirely agree with all the points made in my hon. Friend's supplementary question and I can assure him that library authorities are well aware of those facts

I realise that the Minister is not responsible for the Department of Trade information service. However, will he try to persuade the Secretary of State to give him details of licences for the export of works of art, which at the moment it appears to be against Government policy to publish?

I shall certainly have a look at that point in conjuncton with my right hon. Friend.

Are significant sums being earmarked for information services to small firms?

A lot is happening concerning information services to small firms. I cannot say that specific funds are being allocated, but, as a result of studies that have been made in this field and others, small firms are well aware of the importance of the service and are taking it seriously.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask for your guidance? The word "chairperson" was used in question 13 today. May I ask you to instruct the Table Office not to accept that abomination and abortion of the English language? Will you also give an assurance to the House that any future occupant of your Chair of the fair sex, will—like the late Miss Betty Harvie Anderson, who chaired our proceedings with such distinction and charm—be referred to as Deputy Speaker, Speaker, or Chairman of Ways and Means?

Order, I hope that nobody will ever refer to me as "Chairperson". I shall look at what the hon. Gentleman has said. I share his lack of enthusiasm for that word.