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Education And Science

Volume 20: debated on Monday 15 March 1982

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The Arts (Report)

20.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is now in a position to reply to the Education, Science and Art Committee's report on "Public and Private Funding of the Arts" an interim report on works of art, their retention in Great Britain and their acquisition by public bodies.

I hope to publish the reply before Easter.

Is the Minister aware that it is nearly a year since the report was put before him? Does he intend that his reply before Easter will be taken into account in this year's Finance Bill, and that action will be taken this year on the terms of his reply? Does he agree that the matter is urgent, since petty bureaucrats in the Treasury should not be allowed to stand in the way—as we found in our Committee—of the sensible retention of works of art in Britain?

The Treasury has been its usual helpful self on this, as in many other matters. I shall not anticipate the reply, which will be with the House before long.

Does the report concern the export of works of art from the United Kingdom, or exclusively from Great Britain?

Except in the most tangential way the report is not concerned with the export of works of art.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the report, which was unanimous, was given further unanimous backing in the debate in the House on 15 February? Is my right hon. Friend further aware that if a flood of works of art comes on to the market in the next year the admirable national heritage memorial fund will be unable to cope? Does he agree that unless some of the proposals in the report are adopted by the Government we could face a disaster that would make Mentmore appear to be a tiny local incident?

I hope that that will not happen. I am well aware that the report is unanimous. That fact has been brought to my attention on more than one occasion. Hon. Members have also brought it to the attention of my right hon. and hon. Friends. We shall do the best that we can. I am well aware of the views of the House.

If the Treasury has been its usual helpful self, does that mean that we must blame the Minister for the Arts for having taken so long?

The Government as a whole must take responsibility for the timing and content of replies to Select Committees. We have just had a parliamentary debate, which has to be studied by a number of Departments. I hope that the reply will not be long in coming.

British Library

21.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress is being made on the construction of the new British Library.

The first contract for work on the new British Library building was awarded last month. The contractors plan to begin work on the site immediately after Easter.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his reply will be welcomed by enthusiasts of the project? When does he expect the first phase to be completed?

The phases are divided into many separate sub-phases and groupings. After the preliminary work we shall start phase 1A(a) in the autumn. That will cost about £88 million and will take several years to complete. The process is long and complicated, but we are pressing ahead as rapidly as possible.

Does the Minister agree with the estimate of £600 million over a 10-year period?

No, I do not think that I agree with that. The project is enormously complicated and expensive. It will have to be revised from time to time as circumstances change. "One step enough for me" should be our motto. This is sensible and has met with general approval throughout the House.

As far as the building itself is concerned, did my right hon. Friend notice the comment of a critic, prompted by the buildings at the National Theatre and the Barbican who said "When I hear the word 'culture' I call for my concrete-mixer". Can my right hon. Friend explain why it is necessary for the cultural muses to be pursued in buildings of such spectacular ugliness?

If my hon. Friend lives long enough to see the British Library completed, I hope that he will not think that it is a building of spectacular ugliness. I think that it will be quite a nice building. It is extraordinary that Britain has not made a start on building a new library before. We are way behind the Library of Congress, for example. It is generally recognised to be of great importance.

Arts Council (Appointments)

22.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he has to make appointments to the Arts Council from persons living in the Northern region.

I am always ready to consider the appointment of persons with suitable qualifications and experience, wherever they live. But members are not appointed in a representative capacity or by virtue of their residence in a particular region.

I accept that there is a case for non-regional appointments to the Arts Council, but is there not equally a case for regional appointees? Would not a mixture be advantageous to the arts and the Arts Council generally? Is the Minister aware of the strong feeling in the North of England that we are as neglected in the arts by this Government as we are in industry? Will the Minister reconsider appointing people from the North, particularly since no one from the Northern region has ever sat on the Arts Council?

On a rough calculation, out of the 18 members of the Arts Council, plus the chairman, no fewer than eight live outside London. Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Dorset, Scotland and Wales have representatives. The council contains many members from outside London. I cannot guarantee to appoint a person from a specific area. I am astonished that the hon. Gentleman should say that the North has been neglected. The Northern Arts Association receives more money than any other regional arts association in England.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is harmful to the region, with its various problems, to suggest that it is neglected in terms of the arts? Is my right hon. Friend aware that currently the Royal Shakespeare Company is appearing at our theatre in Newcastle—the capital of the North—and that the Oslo Philharmonic Orchestra, appearing at the city hall, is playing to a highly appreciative audience? Is he aware that the Laing art gallery in Newcastle upon Tyne has a national and international reputation?

That shows that the North does well in the arts. The hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Dormand) grossly exaggerates his case.

Is the Minister aware that Dr. Richard Hoggart, who was born and brought up in Leeds—which is in the North of England—has just been sacked?

I do not think that Leeds is covered by the term "Northern region". If we are to bandy names, I must tell the House that the secretary general of the Arts Council comes from Yorkshire and the deputy secretary general from Durham.

Information Services

23.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps he is taking to increase the effectiveness of the information services for which he is responsible.

My advisory council on library and information services has recently published a report on future developments in this field. A copy is available in the Library. The report makes many valuable recommendations, and my Office is pursuing with those concerned the most urgent tasks identified by the council.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that information services are vitally important as part of the library services? May we have an assurance that up-to-date information technology will be included in future? Will my right hon. Friend keep in touch with the Minister for Industry and Information Technology about the matter?

Yes. I am in constant touch with him. I entirely agree with all the points made in my hon. Friend's supplementary question and I can assure him that library authorities are well aware of those facts

I realise that the Minister is not responsible for the Department of Trade information service. However, will he try to persuade the Secretary of State to give him details of licences for the export of works of art, which at the moment it appears to be against Government policy to publish?

I shall certainly have a look at that point in conjuncton with my right hon. Friend.

Are significant sums being earmarked for information services to small firms?

A lot is happening concerning information services to small firms. I cannot say that specific funds are being allocated, but, as a result of studies that have been made in this field and others, small firms are well aware of the importance of the service and are taking it seriously.

Questions To Ministers

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask for your guidance? The word "chairperson" was used in question 13 today. May I ask you to instruct the Table Office not to accept that abomination and abortion of the English language? Will you also give an assurance to the House that any future occupant of your Chair of the fair sex, will—like the late Miss Betty Harvie Anderson, who chaired our proceedings with such distinction and charm—be referred to as Deputy Speaker, Speaker, or Chairman of Ways and Means?

Order, I hope that nobody will ever refer to me as "Chairperson". I shall look at what the hon. Gentleman has said. I share his lack of enthusiasm for that word.

Statutory Instruments &C

Ordered,

That the draft European Communities (Definition of Treaties) (International Railway Tariffs Agreements) Order 1982 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments &c.—[Mr. Cope.]