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Volume 24: debated on Tuesday 25 May 1982

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`Amendments Of Transport Act 1968 Relating To Operators' Licences

Part I

Provisions Inserted After Section 69 Of Transport Act 1968

Control of operating centres for goods vehicles on environmental
grounds

Operating centres for authorised vehicles to be specified in
operators' licences

69A.—(1) A person may not use a place in the area of any licensing authority as an operating centre for authorised vehicles under any operator's licence granted to him by that authority unless it is specified in that licence.

(2) A person applying for an operator's licence shall give to the licensing authority a statement giving such particulars as the authority may require of each place in the area of the authority which will be an operating centre of the applicant if the licence is granted.

(3) Without prejudice to section 62(4) of this Act, a person applying for an operator's licence shall also, if he is required by the licensing authority so to do, give to him such particulars as he may require with respect to the use which the applicant proposes to make, for authorised vehicles under the licence, of any place referred to in the statement under subsection (2) of this section.

(4) Any person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500.

Objection to, and refusal or modification of, applications for operators' licences on environmental grounds

69B.—(1) Any person entitled by virtue of section 63(3) of this Act to object to the grant of any application for an operator's licence on the ground there mentioned may also object to the grant of any such application on the ground that any place which, if the licence is granted, will be an operating centre of the holder of the licence is unsuitable on environmental grounds for use as such.

(2) In the case of any such application, any person who is the owner or occupier of land in the vicinity of any place which, if the licence is granted, will be an operating centre of the holder of the licence may make representations against the grant of the application on the ground that that place in unsuitable on environmental grounds for use as such, provided that any adverse effects on environmental conditions arising from that use would be capable of prejudicially affecting the use or enjoyment of the land.

(3) Where any objection or representations are duly made under this section in respect of any application for an operator's licence, the licensing authority may in any case refuse the application on the ground that the parking of authorised vehicles under the licence at or in the vicinity of any place which, if the licence were granted, would be an operating centre of the holder of the licence would cause adverse effects on environmental conditions in the vicinity of that place.

(4) Where any objection or representations are duly so made in respect of any such application, the licensing authority may refuse the application, subject to subsection (5) of this section, on the ground that any place which, if the licence were granted, would be an operating centre of the holder of the licence is unsuitable for use as such on environmental grounds other than the ground mentioned in subsection (3) of this section.

(5) A licensing authority may not refuse an application for an operator's licence under subsection (4) of this section if the applicant satisfies the authority that the grant of the application will not result in any material change as regards—

  • (a) the places in the area of the authority used or to be used as operating centres for authorised vehicles under any operator's licence previously granted by the authority or under the licence applied for; or
  • (b) the use of any such place already in use as an operating centre under an existing licence so granted.
  • (6) Without prejudice to the power of a licensing authority to issue an operator's licence subject to either or both of the modifications or limitations mentioned in section 64(4) of this Act, in any case where—

  • (a) the authority has power to refuse an application for any such licence under subsection (3) or (4) of this section; and
  • (b) any place other than a place unsuitable for use as an operating centre is referred to in the statement under section 69A(2) of this Act as a proposed operating centre of the applicant; the authority may, instead of refusing the application, issue the licence specifying in it only such place or places referred to in that statement as are not unsuitable for use as an operating centre.
  • For the purposes of this subsection, a place referred to in any such statement given to a licensing authority by an applicant for an operator's licence is unsuitable for use as an operating centre if the licensing authority has power to refuse the application under subsection (3) or (4) of this section in consequence of the proposed use of that place as an operating centre.

    (7) A request for the grant of a licence under section 67(5) of this Act pending the determination of a current application shall not be treated as an application for an operator's licence for the purposes of this section, but in granting a licence under section 67(5) a licensing authority may specify in the licence such place or places referred to in the statement given to the authority by the applicant under section 69A(2) of this Act as the authority thinks fit.

    Conditions as to the use of operating centres

    69C.—(1) Subject to the following provisions of this section, a licensing authority may attach such conditions to an operator's licence as appear to him to be appropriate for the purpose of preventing or minimising any adverse effects on environmental conditions arising from the use for authorised vehicle under the licence of any operating centre of the holder of the licence in the area of the authority.

    (2) The conditions which may be attached to a licence under this section shall be of such description as may be prescribed; and, without prejudice to the generality of the preceding provision, the descriptions which may be prescribed include conditions regulating—

  • (a) the number, type and size of motor vehicles or trailers which may at any one time be at any operating centre of the holder of the licence in the area of the authority for any prescribed purpose;
  • (b) the parking arrangements to be provided at or in the vicinity of any such centre; and
  • (c) the hours at which operations of any prescribed description may be carried on at any such centre.
  • (3) Subject to subsection (4) of this section, the licensing authority by whom an operator's licence was granted may at any time vary or remove any condition attached to the licence under this section.

    (4) The power to attach a condition to an operator's licence under this section shall be exercisable by a licensing authority on granting the licence; and that power, and the power to vary or remove any condition so attached, shall also be exercisable in accordance with section 69D of this Act on an application by the holder for variation of the licence.

    (5) Any person who contravenes any condition attached under this section to a licence of which he is the holder shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500.

    Variation of operators' licences with respect to operating centres and conditions affecting their use, etc.

    69D.—(1) Subject to section 69E of this Act, on the application of the holder of an operator's licence, the licensing authority by whom the licence was granted may at any time while it is in force vary the licence by directing—

  • (a) that a new place shall be specified in the licence as an operating centre of the holder of the licence, or that any place so specified shall cease to be so specified; or
  • (b) that any condition to the licence under section 69C of this Act shall be varied or removed.
  • (2) A person applying for the variation of an operator's licence under this section shall give to the licensing authority such information as he may reasonably require for the discharge of his duties in relation to the application.

    (3) The licensing authority shall publish in the prescribed manner notice of any application for a variation under this section, unless the licensing authority is satisfied that the application is of so trivial a nature that it is not necessary that an opportunity should be given for objecting to it or making representations against it.

    (4) Any person entitled to object to the grant of any application for a variation of which notice has been published under section 68(4) of this Act may object to the grant of any application for a variation of which notice has been published under section 68(4) or under subsection (3) of this section on either of the following grounds, that is to say—

  • (a) that any place which, if the application for variation is granted, will be an operating centre of the holder of the licence is unsuitable on environmental grounds for use as such; or
  • (b) that the use in any manner which will be permitted if the application for variation is granted of any operating centre of the holder of the licence will have adverse effects on environmental conditions in the vicinity of that centre.
  • (5) Subject to subsection (6) of this section, any person who is the owner or occupier of land in the vicinity of—

  • (a) any place which, if the application for variation is granted, will be an operating centre of the holder of the licence; or
  • (b) any existing operating centre of the holder of the licence to which the application relates; may make representations against the grant of any application for a variation of which notice has been published under section 68(4) of this Act or under subsection (3) of this section on either of the grounds mentioned in subsection (4) of this section, but so far only as relates to that place or operating centre.
  • (6) A person may not by virtue of subsection (5) of this section make representations against the grant of an application for variation of an operator's licence unless any adverse effects arising from the use of the place or operating centre in question would be capable of prejudicially affecting the use or enjoyment of land there mentioned.

    (7) On any application for a variation of an operator's licence under this section the licensing authority may refuse the application in any case where it appears to him that the application ought to be refused on either of the grounds mentioned in subsection (4) of this section.

    (8) In any case in which the licensing authority grants an application for a variation of an operator's licence of which notice has been published under section 68(4) of this Act or under subsection (3) of this section, the licensing authority may direct that any condition attached to the licence under section 69C of this Act shall be varied or removed or that a condition shall be attached to the licence under that section.

    (9) If an applicant under this section so requests, the licensing authority may, pending the determination of the application, give an interim direction under subsection (1) or (8) of this section, that is to say, a direction expressed to continue in force only until the application, and any appeal arising out of it, have been disposed of; and a request for such a direction shall not for the purposes of subsections (3) to (7) of this section be treated as an application for a variation under this section.

    Publication Of Notice Of Applications For Licences And Variations In Localities Affected

    69E.—(1) The licensing authority for any area shall refuse—

  • (a) any application to the authority for an operator's licence; and
  • (b) any application to the authority for the variation of an operator's licence of which notice has been published under section 68(4) or 69D(3) of this Act; without considering the merits of the application unless he is satisfied that notice of the application in such form and containing such information as may be prescribed has been published within the period mentioned in subsection (2) of this section in a local newspaper or newspapers circulating in each locality affected by the application.
  • (2) The period referred to in subsection (1) of this section is the period beginning twenty-one days before the date on which the application is made and ending twenty-one days after that date.

    (3) For the purposes of this section a locality shall be taken to be affected by an application to a licensing authority for, or for the variation of, an operators's licence if it contains any place in the area of the authority which will be an operating centre of the holder of the licence if the application is granted, or (in the case of an application for variation) any existing operating centre of the holder of the licence to which the application relates.

    Revocation, Etc Of Operators' Licences For Breach Of Provisions Controling Use Of Operating Centres

    69F.—(1) Subject to subsection (2) of this section, the licensing authority by whom an operator's licence was granted may direct that it be revoked, suspended, terminated on a (late earlier than that on which it would otherwise expire under section 67 of this Act, or curtailed on the ground that the holder of the licence has contravened section 69A of this Act or any condition attached to his licence under section 69C of this Act; and during any time of suspension the licence shall be of no effect.

    (2) Section 69 of this Act shall apply as if the power to give a direction under subsection (1) of this section and the ground there mentioned were respectively conferred by and mentioned in subsection (1) of that section.

    Provisions supplementary to sections 69A to 69F

    69G.—(1) Any objection or representations under section 69B or 69D of this Act shall contain particulars of any matters alleged by the person making the objection or representations to be relevant to the determination of the licensing authority to which the objections or representations relate; and the onus of proof of any matters so alleged shall lie on the person making the objection or representations.

    (2) any objection or representations under either of those sections with respect to any application for, or for the variation of, an operator's licence shall be made within the prescribed time and in the prescribed manner, which—

  • (a) may differ for representations from that prescribed for objections; and
  • (b) shall in either case be stated in the notice of the application published under section 63(1) of this Act or (as the case may be) under section 69D of this Act.
  • (3) In making any of the following determinations, that is to say—

  • (a) any determination with respect to the suitability of any place on environmental grounds for use as an operating centre for authorised vehicles under an operator's licence;
  • (b) any determination with respect to attaching any condition under section 69C of this Act to an operator's licence or varying or removing any condition so attached;
  • (c) any determination with respect to the effect on environmental conditions in any locality of the use in any particular manner of any operating centre of the holder of an operator's licence; the licensing authority shall have regard to such considerations as may be prescribed as relevant to determinations of that description.
  • (4) In making any such determination for the purposes of exercising any of his powers under sections 69B to 69D of this

    Act in relation to an application for, or for the variation of, an operator's licence, the licensing authority shall also have regard to—

  • (a) any information supplied by the applicant in accordance with section 69A or 69D of this Act; and
  • (b) any objections or representations duly made under section 69B or 69D.
  • (5) Notice of an application for a variation of an operator's licence published under section 69D of this Act shall contain

  • (a) an indication in the prescribed form to the effect that the grant of the application may only be opposed on either of the grounds mentioned in subsection (4) of that section;
  • (b) a description of the persons entitled in accordance with that section to make an objection or representations against the grant of the application on either of those grounds; and
  • (c) such other information as may be prescribed.
  • (6) Any statement or information to be given to a licensing authority under section 69A or 69D of this Act shall be given in such form as the authority may require.

    (7) For the purposes of sections 69D(5) (b) and 69E(3) of this Act an application for a variation of an operator's licence shall be taken to relate to an operating centre of the holder of the licence if any condition attached to the licence which the application seeks to have varied or removed relates to that centre.

    Part Ii

    OTHER AMENDMENTS OF TRANSPORT ACT 1968

    '1. In section 63 of the Transport Act 1968 (objections to grant of operators' licences)—

  • (a) in subsection (1) the words "Subject to subsection (2) of this section" shall be omitted;
  • (b) subsection (2) shall be omitted; and
  • (c) in subsection (3), for the words from "of which" to "this section" there shall be substituted the words "for an operator's licence".
  • 2. In section 64 of that Act (grounds for objection to application for a licence under section 63 and decision of licensing authority on applications)—

  • (a) at the beginning of subsection (1) there shall be inserted the words "Subject to section 69E of this Act";
  • (b) the words in paragraph (d) of subsection (2) from "and that the place" to the end of the paragraph, and the words "and of a suitable operating centre" in paragraph (e) of that subsection (which were in each case inserted by the Road Traffic Act 1974 and are superseded by the provisions set out in Part I of this Schedule) shall be omitted; and
  • (c) in subsection (3), after the words "subsection (4) of this section" there shall be inserted the words "and section 69B of this Act".
  • 3. In section 68(4) of that Act (publication of notice of applications for variation of operators' licences)—

  • (a) paragraph (a) shall be omitted; and
  • (b) for the words "the said section 63" (where first occurring) there shall be substituted the words "section 63 of this Act".
  • 4. In section 70(1)(b) of that Act (right of appeal for persons aggrieved by certain directions or orders), after the words "69(1) to (7A)" there shall be inserted the words "or 69F(1)".

    5. At the end of section 92(3) of that Act (construction of references to directing that an operator's licence be curtailed), there shall be added the following paragraph—

    "(d) that any one or more of the places specified in the licence as operating centres be removed therefrom". '.—[Mr. Eyre.]

    Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

    No. 85, in title, line 15, leave out 'the operation of' and insert 'operating centres for'.— [Mr. Eyre.]

    6.43 pm

    Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.— [Mr. David Howell.]

    I take it that the Secretary of State is simply formally moving the Third Reading.

    It is understandable that the Secretary of State does not wish to deploy a case for the Third Reading of such a repugnant measure as this. I realise the reluctance of those who have laboured hard and long on any measure to see it killed or disappear. No matter what the results of one's handiwork, if that handiwork is embodied in the Bill one is reluctant to see it dispatched to the scrap heap, the dustbin or the wastepaper basket of legislative history. Nevertheless, it is my task tonight to commend the House to do precisely that with this measure.

    I commend the House to do so, first, because of the main provisions of clause 1, which are that a power shall be granted to the Secretary of State to instruct the National Bus Company to sell any of its subsidiaries or to so reorganise its assets as to form a subsidiary for the purpose of selling it.

    It is clear to anyone who examines the transport industry that few assets can be sold. There are many that one could not give away, to put it bluntly. However, there are a few profitable areas of operation, jewels that shine from the murky background of the operation—murky in the financial sense, not necessarily in the public service sense. Many operators strive hard to maintain a tradition of good public transport.

    Within the National Bus Company there are a few profitable organisations that were made profitable by much enterprise and effort by those who worked in the company and responded when the Government de-licensed express coaching. It is clear that in part I the Government wished to say "You have used our legislation to create a profitable area in transport. You cannot do that. You will be giving a good name to a public industry and to public transport. Anything that is public must be damned or made unprofitable and, therefore, we shall instruct you to sell it." That is our first objection to what the Government are doing. They have found another profitable area in the holiday agency operation.

    Apart from our difference of philosophy with the Government, we have a mechanical difference with them which we commend to the House. The ability of the NBC to succeed in this area where others have failed does not arise solely from the management expertise, the ability of the staff or the fact that it is a good operator. It arises because it is such a large organisation that it can integrate the provision of other services within its general duty to run the stage carriage services of Britain. As it has garages and booking offices all over the country, it is possible to slot into the framework of that massive organisation express coaching and holiday agencies and to derive a profit, which is currently used to support the non-profitable services such as the rural bus services and the off-peak urban services.

    Last night the Secretary of State urged the House to get the matter into perspective. I took that point carefully. He said that the company made a profit of only £5 million, although it has a large turnover. Which other organisation made £5 million last year running buses anywhere in Britain? That would be a desirable organisation, but I know of none. To make £5 million last year when the competition was cut-throat and when other firms went to the wall in trying to compete is no small achievement.

    That situation will not continue for long. There will be a swing of the pendulum in the other direction and the coach operators that survived the period of cut-throat competition will examine ways in which to put up their fares again so that they can have a larger income. That is all the more reason why we should not attempt to break up that closely integrated operation. I question whether it can be done. It might be done by accountancy, but to remove from the NBC the drivers, buses, garages and offices and to say that those parts must be devoted only to express coach operations or holiday agencies is to make practical nonsense of the operation.

    If only £5 million is to be taken out, will the Secretary of State give us a guarantee that the £5 million will be handed to those authorities whose agreements with the NBC will lapse as a result of the NBC no longer being able to feed in that money by way of transport supplementary grant? If that is not the case, the public will once again be the loser.

    Before raising the Opposition's principal objections about HGV testing stations, I urge the Secretary of State to consider their possible size. I do so incase, despite our superb case against the Bill, the Government's argument may yet be carried.

    The right hon. Gentleman should carefully examine public service vehicle testing. When I talked to operators, I found that the development of testing facilities for public service vehicles on the operator's premises had almost been brought to a halt by Government action. There had been considerable expansion of the installation of such facilities in larger bus garages. The operators tell me that they are uncertain about being able to have coaches tested and about the charges that will be made as a result of the proposed changes.

    If the Secretary of State is to operate the Act, he must take steps to ensure that operators who have good test facilities are assured that they will be provided with authorised testers. There is no guarantee of that at the moment. They fear, with some justification, that some of the authorised testers will be the employees of their competitors for test facilities.

    The Secretary of State appears to disagree. I take the example of a bus operator who has spent a considerable sum of money installing equipment to carry out tests to the Ministry of Transport's requirements. He may have been able until now to rely on the Ministry to supply someone to test buses on his facilities at a fixed fee. The operator fears that he may in future be forced to go to a private HGV testing station to ask for someone to test his vehicles on his premises.

    The private tester will decide when he will make a man available and how much to charge, unless there is a uniform system of charges, without any account being taken of the fact that operators provide their own test facilities. That will be a major disincentive to the expansion of test facilities.

    I plead with the Secretary of State to bear in mind that the provision of such facilities has contributed greatly to the maintenace of bus standards. An operator with his own test facilities does not use them only when the tester arrives. He tests his vehicles first. He will not waste the time of the tester, who might find that the vehicle is not up to standard and the owner will then have to carry out the work. He will test his vehicles first and find the faults. He will carry out the work to prevent the faults from developing. This is done to maintain braking standards, for example. It is in the interests of road safety to encourage that development.

    The Opposition remain alarmed about the down-licensing rather than the down-plating approach of the Government. I hope that the Secretary of State will ensure that vehicle operators who claim the advantage of paying a lower licensing fee under the Finance Bill because they will run below their plated weights will be required to display a plate prominently. That will allow much more effective enforcement.

    In spite of varying cross-party opinions on part HI, the Opposition find parts I and II repugnant. They are narrowly doctrinaire and are conceived to sacrifice the interests of public transport and road safety to Tory monetarist prejudice. They will result in cuts in the Civil Service and the destruction of the public sector because of the aims of a crusade, the achievement of which seems to justify any end.

    For those reasons, we recommend that the Bill be rejected.

    6.54 pm

    I was anxious to hear whether the right hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) had some worthwhile reasons for opposing what most people recognise as a thoroughly constructive transport Bill. Admittedly it covers a wide range of transport interests, but it is utterly in tune with the needs of those who use public transport, the transport industry and the interests of the community. That is why I thought it right that the right hon. Gentleman should have the opportunity to oppose the Bill and to advance some good reasons for doing so. The House will be confirmed in its suspicion that he has none.

    The right hon. Gentleman dealt with the question of more private money being brought into the bus industry. He mentioned his worry that the profitable operations of the National Express subsidiary of the National Bus Company should be privatised. That is a little strange as, thinking back, he and his right hon. and hon. Friends vigorously opposed—possibly with more vigour than the Opposition have pursued what they think is wrong in the Bill—the measures that enabled National Express to develop healthily into a highly profitable enterprise. What is wrong with that? The right hon. Gentleman opposed it. Now that it occurs he wrings his hands and regrets that private money should be sought to reinforce the success of National Express.

    What is more, the money will be used to reinforce the NBC, which is a minority shareholder in the National Express subsidiary—as I believe it will be—and to provide some resources to back up its other operations. That is a desirable and helpful development. It is not in the mode of party doctrine or dogma. It is a sensible and practical development. I cannot understand why the right hon. Gentleman could not advise his right hon. and hon. Friends to welcome it strongly.

    The Bill also deals with other opportunities for the development and expansion of the passenger transport business. It will bring higher quality services and better facilities for both the travelling public and the staff. The company has advanced preliminary proposals for separate commercial accounts for National Express and the holiday side of the business. Those ideas are being developed in discussions between the Department and the company with a view to their being in place by the end of 1982.

    With regard to property, the chairman of the National Bus Company has presented me with an interesting package of proposals that involve the private sector in the development and improvement of NBC sites. I shall discuss them shortly with the chairman to try to agree the best way forward for the NBC, the people who use buses and sit in stations and all those, both customers and those in the industry, who wish to see it prosper. I cannot understand why the Opposition find that so objectionable in practice or why they find it impossible to suppress a deep primeval instinct to attack everything to do with the private sector and private money being introduced to further operations. It is a pity that they were not able to override their prejudices.

    Part II proposes a goods vehicle scheme which will be more efficient and better geared to the needs of industry. The way in which I have suggested that that should be done—through discussions with Lloyd's Register—is wholly in line with the requirements and suggestions that were advanced both by the Select Committee on Transport and with the needs and concerns that were expressed in Committee. Again, I should have expected a warmer welcome than we have received from the Opposition.

    I shall, of course, take account of the needs of bus operators in the way that the right hon. Gentleman describes. Of course we want an efficient service in safe hands. I believe that under the scheme being discussed with Lloyd's Register it will be possible to develop the system in a way that meets the needs as well as or even better than at present.

    The Bill also proposes a fairer and much more efficient system of penalties for traffic offences and more effective safeguards for the public from the unpleasant side of lorry operations. Much of the debate on traffic offences inevitably concentrated on the extension of the system to a wider range of offences. Nevertheless, we must not lose sight of the important measures provided by the Bill to improve enforcement of the present system, which have, I think, also been universally welcomed. As the House knows, at present the system is being defeated by a large number of motorists who do not pay because they believe that the penalties will not be enforced. The changes being introduced will help to ensure that that does not happen.

    I have listened carefully to the right hon. Gentleman, but I have heard no good reason why the Third Reading of the Bill should be opposed. We do not feel defensive about it in terms of party dogma. We put it forward with confidence as a series of sound, practical measures which deserve the full support of everyone with a genuine interest in the transport industries of this country and in meeting the transport needs of the community and the customers of the transport services. I hope, therefore, that right hon. and hon. Members will give it full support.

    Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:—

    The House divided: Ayes 282, Noes 217.

    Division No. 171]

    [7 pm

    AYES

    Adley, RobertBiffen, Rt Hon John
    Alexander, RichardBiggs-Davison, SirJohn
    Alison, Rt Hon MichaelBlackburn, John
    Amery, Rt Hon JulianBlaker, Peter
    Ancram, MichaelBody, Richard
    Arnold, TomBonsor, SirNicholas
    Aspinwall, JackBoscawen, Hon Robert
    Atkins, Rt Hon H. (S'thorne)Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W)
    Atkins, Robert('PrestonN)Bowden, Andrew
    Atkinson, David (B'm'th, E,)Boyson, Dr Rhodes
    Baker, Kenneth (St.M'bone)Braine, SirBernard
    Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)Bright, Graham
    Banks, RobertBrinton, Tim
    Beaumont-Dark, AnthonyBrittan, Rt. Hon. Leon
    Bendall, VivianBrooke, Hon Peter
    Bennett, SirFrederic (T'bay)Brotherton, Michael
    Benyon, Thomas (A'don)Brown, Michael (Brigg&Sc'n)
    Benyon, W. (Buckingham)Bruce-Gardyne, John
    Best, KeithBuchanan-Smith, Rt. Hon. A.
    Bevan, DavidGilroyBuck, Antony

    Budgen, NickHicks, Robert
    Bulmer, EsmondHiggins, Rt Hon Terence L.
    Burden, SirFrederickHill, James
    Butcher, JohnHogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)
    Cadbury, JocelynHolland, Philip(Carlton)
    Carlisle, John (Luton West)Hooson, Tom
    Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)Hordern, Peter
    Chapman, SydneyHowell, Rt Hon D.(G'ldf'd)
    Churchill, W.S.Hunt, David (Wirral)
    Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n)Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)
    Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick
    Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)JohnsonSmith, Geoffrey
    Clegg, SirWalterJopling, Rt Hon Michael
    Cockeram, EricKaberry, SirDonald
    Colvin, MichaelKershaw, SirAnthony
    Cope, JohnKilfedder, JamesA.
    Cormack, PatrickKimball, SirMarcus
    Corrie, JohnKitson, SirTimothy
    Costain, SirAlbertKnight, MrsJill
    Cranborne, ViscountKnox, David
    Critchley, JulianLamont, Norman
    Crouch, DavidLang, Ian
    Dean, Paul (North Somerset)Langford-Holt, SirJohn
    Dickens, GeoffreyLatham, Michael
    Dorrell, StephenLawrence, Ivan
    Douglas-Hamilton, LordJ.Lee, John
    Dover, DenshoreLennox-Boyd, HonMark
    du Cann, Rt Hon EdwardLester, Jim (Beeston)
    Dunn, Robert (Dartford)Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
    Durant, TonyLloyd, Ian (Havant&W'loo)
    Dykes, HughLloyd, Peter (Fareham)
    Eden, Rt Hon Sir JohnLoveridge, John
    Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke)Luce, Richard
    Eggar, TimMcCrindle, Robert
    Emery, Sir PeterMacfarlane, Neil
    Eyre, ReginaldMacGregor, John
    Fairbairn, NicholasMacKay, John (Argyll)
    Fairgrieve, SirRussellMacmillan, Rt Hon M.
    Faith, MrsSheilaMcNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)
    Farr, JohnMcNair-Wilson, P. (NewF'st)
    Finsberg, GeoffreyMcQuarrie, Albert
    Fisher, SirNigelMadel, David
    Fletcher-Cooke, SirCharlesMajor, John
    Fookes, MissJanetMarland, Paul
    Forman, NigelMarlow, Antony
    Fowler, Rt Hon NormanMarshall, Michael (Arundel)
    Fox, MarcusMarten, Rt Hon Neil
    Fraser, Rt Hon Sir HughMaude, Rt Hon Sir Angus
    Fraser, Peter (South Angus)Mawby, Ray
    Fry, PeterMawhinney, Dr Brian
    Gardiner, George (Reigate)Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
    Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)Mellor, David
    Garel-Jones, TristanMeyer, Sir Anthony
    Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir IanMiller, Hal (B'grove)
    Glyn, Dr AlanMills Iain (Meriden)
    Goodhart, SirPhilipMills, Peter (West Devon)
    Goodhew, SirVictorMiscampbell, Norman
    Goodlad, AlastairMitchell, David (Basingstoke)
    Gorst, JohnMoate, Roger
    Gow, IanMonro, SirHector
    Gower, SirRaymondMontgomery, Fergus
    Gray, HamishMoore, John
    Greenway, HarryMorris, M. (N'hampton S)
    Griffiths, E. (B'ySt. Edm'ds)Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)
    Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N)Mudd, David
    Grist, IanMurphy, Christopher
    Grylls, MichaelMyles, David
    Gummer, JohnSelwynNeale, Gerrard
    Hamilton, Hon A.Needham, Richard
    Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)Nelson, Anthony
    Hampson, Dr KeithNeubert, Michael
    Hannam, JohnNewton, Tony
    Haselhurst, AlanNormanton, Tom
    Havers, Rt Hon Sir MichaelNott, Rt Hon John
    Hawkins, PaulOnslow, Cranley
    Hawksley, WarrenOppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.
    Hayhoe, BarneyPage, John (Harrow, West)
    Heddle, JohnPage, Richard (SW Herts)
    Henderson, BarryParris, Matthew
    Heseltine, Rt Hon MichaelPawsey, James

    Percival, Sir IanStevens, Martin
    Peyton, Rt Hon JohnStewart, A. (E Renfrewshire)
    Pink, R, BonnerStewart, Ian (Hitchin)
    Pollock, AlexanderStokes, John
    Porter, BarryStradlingThomas, J.
    Prentice, Rt Hon RegTapsell, Peter
    Proctor, K. HarveyTemple-Morris, Peter
    Pym, Rt Hon FrancisThatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.
    Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal)Thomas, Rt Hon Peter
    Rees-Davies, W. R.Thompson, Donald
    Renton, TimThorne, Neil(IlfordSouth)
    Rhodes James, RobertThornton, Malcolm
    Rhys Williams, SirBrandonTownend, John (Bridlington,)
    Ridley, HonNicholasTownsend, Cyril D, (B'heath)
    Ridsdale, SirJulianTrippier, David
    Rifkind, MalcolmTrotter, Neville
    Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW)van Straubenzee, SirW.
    Roberts, Wyn (Conway)Vaughan, Dr Gerard
    Rossi, HughViggers, Peter
    Rost, PeterWaddington, David
    Royle, SirAnthonyWakeham, John
    Sainsbury, HonTimothyWaldegrave, HonWilliam
    St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.Wall, SirPatrick
    Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)Waller, Gary
    Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)Walters, Dennis
    Shelton, William (Streatham)Ward, John
    Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)Warren, Kenneth
    Shepherd, RichardWatson, John
    Silvester, FredWheeler, John
    Sims, RogerWhitelaw, Rt Hon William
    Skeet, T. H. H.Whitney, Raymond
    Smith, DudleyWickenden, Keith
    Speed, KeithWiggin, Jerry
    Speller, TonyWilkinson, John
    Spence, JohnWilliams, D.(Montgomery)
    Spicer, Jim (WestDorset)Winterton, Nicholas
    Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)Wolfson, Mark
    Sproat, IainYoung, SirGeorge (Acton)
    Squire, RobinYounger, Rt Hon George
    Stainton, Keith
    Stanbrook, IvorTellers for the Ayes:
    Stanley, JohnMr. Anthony Beny and Mr. Carol Mather.
    Steen, Anthony

    NOES

    Abse, LeoConlan, Bernard
    Adams, AllenCook, Robin F.
    Alton, DavidCowans, Harry
    Anderson. DonaldCraigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill)
    Archer, Rt Hon PeterCrowther, Stan
    Ashley, Rt Hon JackCryer, Bob
    Ashton, JoeCunliffe, Lawrence
    Atkinson, N.(H'gey,)Cunningham, G. (IslingtonS)
    Bagier, Gordon A.T.Cunningham, Dr J.(W'h'n)
    Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)Davidson, Arthur
    Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd)Davies, Ifor (Gower)
    Beith, A.J.Davis, Clinton (HackneyC)
    Benn, Rt Hon TonyDavis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd)
    Bennett, Andrew(St'kp'tN)Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)
    Bidwell, SydneyDewar, Donald
    Booth, Rt Hon AlbertDixon, Donald
    Bray, Dr JeremyDobson, Frank
    Brocklebank-Fowler, C.Dormand, Jack
    Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)Douglas, Dick
    Brown, Ron(E'burgh, Leith)Dubs, Alfred
    Buchan, NormanDuffy, A. E. P.
    Callaghan, Rt Hon J.Dunn, James A.
    Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n&P)Dunnett, Jack
    Campbell, IanDunwoody, Hon MrsG.
    Campbell-Savours, DaleEadie, Alex
    Canavan, DennisEastham, Ken
    Cant, R. B.Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n SE)
    Carmichael, NeilEllis, R.(NE D'bysh're)
    Carter-Jones, LewisEnglish, Michael
    Cartwright, JohnEnnals, Rt Hon David
    Clark, Dr David (S Shields)Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)
    Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S)Field, Frank
    Cohen, StanleyFitch, Alan
    Coleman, DonaldFlannery, Martin
    Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

    Ford, BenO'Neill, Martin
    Forrester, JohnOwen, Rt Hon Dr David
    Foster, DerekPalmer, Arthur
    Fraser, J. (Lamb 'th, N'w'd)Park, George
    Garrett, John (Norwich S)Parker, John
    Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)Parry, Robert
    George, BrucePenhaligon, David
    Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr JohnPowell, Raymond (Ogmore)
    Graham, TedPrescott, John
    Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife)Price, C. (Lewisham W)
    Hardy, PeterRace, Reg
    Harrison, Rt Hon WalterRadice, Giles
    Heffer, Eric S.Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S)
    Hogg, N. (EDunb't'nshire)Richardson, Jo
    Holland,S.(L'b'th,Vauxh'll)Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
    HomeRobertson, JohnRoberts, Ernest (Hackney N)
    Howells, GeraintRoberts, Gwilym (Cannock)
    Hoyle, DouglasRobinson, G. (Coventry NW)
    Hughes, Mark (Durham)Rodgers, Rt Hon William
    Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)Rooker, J. W.
    Hughes, Roy (Newport)Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)
    Janner, HonGrevilleRyman, John
    Jay, Rt Hon DouglasSandelson, Neville
    John, BrynmorSever, John
    Johnson, Walter (Derby S)Sheerman, Barry
    Johnston, Russell (Inverness)Sheldon, Rt Hon R.
    Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda)Shore, Rt Hon Peter
    Jones, Barry (East Flint)Short, Mrs Renée
    Kaufman, Rt Hon GeraldSilkin, Rt HonJ. (Deptford)
    Kerr, RussellSilkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)
    Kilroy-Silk, RobertSilverman, Julius
    Kinnock, NeilSkinner, Dennis
    Lambie, DavidSmith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark)
    Lamborn,HarrySnape, Peter
    Lamond, JamesSoley, Clive
    Leadbitter, TedSpearing, Nigel
    Leighton, RonaldSpriggs, Leslie
    Lestor, Miss JoanStallard, A. W.
    Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)Steel, Rt Hon David
    Litherland, RobertStoddart, David
    Lofthouse, GeoffreyStott, Roger
    Lyon, Alexander (York)Strang, Gavin
    McCartney,HughStraw, Jack
    McDonald, Dr OonaghSummerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
    McElhone, FrankThomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
    McKay, Allen (Penistone)Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)
    McKelvey, WilliamThomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)
    Maclennan, RobertThorne, Stan (PrestonSouth)
    McMahon, AndrewTilley, John
    McNally, ThomasTinn, James
    McNamara, KevinTomey, Tom
    McTaggart, RobertUrwin, Rt Hon Tom
    McWilliam, JohnVarley, Rt Hon Eric G.
    Marks, KennethWalker, Rt Hon H. (D'caster)
    Marshall, D (G'gowS'ton)Watkins, David
    Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)Wellbeloved, James
    Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)Welsh, Michael
    Martin, M (G'gow S'burn)White, Frank R.
    Mason, Rt Hon RoyWhite, J. (G'gow Pollok)
    Maxton, JohnWhitehead, Phillip
    Maynard, Miss JoanWhitlock, William
    Meacher, MichaelWilley, Rt Hon Frederick
    Mellish, Rt Hon RobertWilliams, Rt HonA. (S'seaW)
    Mikardo, IanWilliams, Rt Hon Mrs (Crosby)
    Millan, Rt Hon BruceWilson, Gordon (Dundee E)
    Miller, Dr M.S. (E Kilbride)Wilson, Rt Hon SirH.(H'ton)
    Mitchell,Austin(Grimsby)Winnick, David
    Mitchell, R.C. (Soton Itchen)Woodall, Alec
    Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)Woolmer, Kenneth
    Morris, Rt HonJ. (Aberavon)Wright, Sheila
    Morton, GeorgeYoung, David (Bolton E)
    Moyle, Rt Hon Roland
    Newens, StanleyTellers for the Noes:
    Oakes, Rt Hon GordonMr. James Hamilton and Mr. Frank Haynes.
    Ogden, Eric
    O'Halloran, Michael

    Question accordingly agreed to.

    Bill read the Third time and passed.