asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he is satisfied that equal curriculum opportunity is genuinely available to girls and boys.

We have made it clear that equal curricular opportunities should be available to boys and girls. I accept that there is still some way to go. I urge local education authorities and schools always to give boys and girls a genuine choice in deciding what they are going to study.

I thank the Minister for that reply and agree with the sentiments expressed within it. Does he agree that the Schools Council has done a great deal of work in promoting the idea through the sex roles differentiation project? Does he recognise that the threatened closure of the council means that the project may be discontinued? May we have an assurance that he will give consideration to ensuring that its work continues?

We take every opportunity to preach the message in the hon. Lady's question. I am aware of her interest in the matter. I assure her that we are doing everything that we can and taking every opportunity available to us to ensure that boys and girls are treated equally. I draw her attention to the Department's publication entitled "Science in Schools", which was published in June 1982. If she wishes, I shall send her a copy. I think that she will find it encouraging.

Does the Minister agree that if equality of opportunity is to be given to boys and girls it will be necessary to initiate a considerable expansion of classes and opportunities in schools? Equality cannot be achieved without that expansion. How does he reconcile this with the existing cuts and the statement of his right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday that local education authorities are already overspending by £700 million?

I think that the hon. Gentleman has taken hold of the wrong end of the stick. I do not think that an expansion of classes is necessary. The classes are available. It is really a matter of attitudes. No one can be happy when 50 per cent. of boys but only 15 per cent. of girls take 0-level or CSE physics. That has nothing to do with the number of classes available; it has to do with the attitudes in the schools and in the home.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what has been the result of the first year of operation of the new appeals procedure under the Education Act 1980; and if he will make a statement.

The new school admission arrangements, of which the appeals procedure is only part, are administered locally. The Department is currently consulting local education authorities about the first year's experience. From the greatly reduced number of complaints, it would seem that parents have welcomed the new arrangements.

Does my right hon. Friend believe it would be helpful to have a detailed report from all local education authorities on their experiences of the working of the new procedure? Does he accept that in rural areas it is genuinely more difficult to give full effect to parental choice?

The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's question is "Yes". Such a survey is now going on. In considering the results I shall certainly take into account my hon. Friend's observations in the second part of his question.

In view of the widespread dissatisfaction with the way that the appeals procedure is being operated in the London borough of Bexley and the fact that many parents feel that they have been unfairly treated, will the Secretary of State at least consult the London borough of Bexley to satisfy himself that the procedures adopted there are fair and that an attempt is being made to operate the Government's intention of improving parental choice?

A general survey is going on. I shall certainly interest myself in Bexley. It must be expected that, when a number of parents prefer a popular school, there must be some limit to the expansion of that school and that some parents will be disappointed.

In relation to the new appeals procedure, will my right hon. Friend ask the Bedfordshire education authority why it is trying to force children out of Dunstable into a school over the border against parental choice and wishes? Should not the education authority pull itself together and reach a sensible settlement with the parents?

I am aware, through my hon. Friend, of the anxieties in the Dunstable area. The local education authority is trying its best to put right any errors that may have occurred earlier. I am watching developments there.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he is satisfied with the standards of provision in schools.

There is always scope for improvement, and that is the objective of our educational policies.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that there is wide scope for improvement? Will he also confirm that Her Majesty's Inspectorate said that it was satisfied with the educational provision by in only five out of 96 educational authorities?

I can certainly confirm that there is ample scope for improvement, but it does not follow that putting extra money into any place will necessarily improve the quality of education.

Would it not be conducive to the quality of education if more importance were attached to reports by inspectors and if more publicity were given to reports by inspectors in particular and in general?

Yes, Sir. I have said publicly that I regard extra publicity as desirable.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that a significant factor in the standards of provision in schools is the amount of expenditure per pupil? Has that increased in recent years, particularly in real terms?

Yes, Sir, it is one of the relevant factors. In real terms the expenditure per pupil this year is at a record level. If local education authorities keep their costs under control, and in particular if teachers are content with 3½ per cent. or less, there will be a further improvement next year in real spending per pupil.

What mechanisms does the Secretary of State suggest for maintaining existing standards of provision? Will he allow Her Majesty's Inspectorate to produce a report in the coming 12 months in the same form as he allowed it to produce a report last year?

Many factors are relevant to improving standards—above all, the policies of local education athorities and the skill and character of head teachers and teachers. I intend no change in the format of the annual report of Her Majesty's Inspectorate for this year.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will now institute a survey of the educational standards in city schools, particularly with regard to size in relation to the nature of the catchment areas served.

No, Sir. The Department's circular 2/81 contains advice on school sizes which applies to all areas. That advice drew upon the judgments of Her Majesty's Inspectorate based on all forms of inspection, including its national surveys of primary and secondary education.

Does the Minister accept that the reduction in the number of children of school age is becoming the signal for the destruction of far too many excellent schools in city areas which have specific advantages because of their experience in dealing with particular children in special areas? Does he put Westcotes school in my constituency into that category? Is it not regrettable that that school, among others, is to be destroyed so soon?

The fall in the school population is real. Between 1979 and 1983 the number of pupils in our schools will fall by 1 million. If school rolls fall to such a level, one cannot have economic teaching groups or a spread of subjects. The children inside those schools are educationally disadvantaged, whatever the social advantage of small schools may be.

Instead of instituting a new survey, will my hon. Friend draw the attention of those in education to Professor Michael Rutter's book "Fifteen Thousand Hours"? The book showed that, between matched schools, the poorest 25 per cent. of children in academic ability were doing better than the top 25 per cent. in a neighbouring school.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing Professor Rutter's book to the attention of the House. Professor Rutter makes it clear that, with the same resources and teaching formula, the difference in achievement between schools with the same intake is tremendous, according to the commitment to the school of the head teacher and the staff and their agreement on the methods to be used.

In view of the copious leaks in The Daily Telegraph yesterday and in The Times today about the Government's consideration of the voucher system, will the Minister explain how he believes a voucher system or any of the other proposals of the leaked Think Tank report could be of assistance in overcoming the problems encountered by schools, including city schools, especially as we know that inner city poverty levels are greater than in practically every other environment?

The Conservative Party and the Conservative Government are concerned to increase parental choice and to look at all measures to achieve it.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the size of schools applies not only to city areas? Is he further aware that in many county areas people are mystified by the Government's policy, which seems to tend towards the large schools of 1,000 or more while at the same time closing down perfectly viable and valuable village schools?

My right hon. Friend and I examine carefully all the recommendations that we receive from local authorities. We assess them according to the circumstances in their areas. We also said in circular 2/81 that we realise that we reach a point where we cannot shut village schools without destroying an area. Therefore, authorities should look at the possibility of closing schools in towns where they are nearer together.

Has the Minister examined the report from the city of Manchester, which has compared results in CSE and GCE this year with the academic qualifications, for example, in verbal reasoning, of the same children five years ago? Spurley Hey school, which the Minister referred to as a sink school, showed good results. Does parental choice make any difference here? Will the Minister examine the Manchester report in his anxiety for the publication of examination results?

I know of the hon. Gentleman's concern about education in Manchester. He referred to Spurley Hey school. The very fact that I chastised it verbally five years ago, because of the results it achieved, has caused that degree of improvement. The hon. Gentleman must pay tribute to the service I have done to the Manchester area. I have not seen the report to which he referred, but I shall be delighted to read it and to discuss it with him.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received concerning proposed changes to the initial teacher training scheme and the closure of a number of teacher training colleges; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he expects to announce the revised list of closures for institutions providing initial teacher training.

About 3,000 letters have been received. In addition, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State and officials received deputations from hon. Members, institutions and other interests. I announced my final decisions yesterday in response to a question from my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton. (Mr. Lawrence).

I congratulate the Secretary of State on saving a number of institutions from himself. However, it has not gone unnoticed in the North-West that more than half the institutions that he will attack are in the North-West, including the butchery of De la Salle college. The timing of that original announcement was an insult to the House. Does he accept that the period of so-called consultation has been a farce, because he has ignored the recommendations of his own advisory body and of the Catholic hierarchy?

I reject all those allegations. We felt it our duty to make a decision as quickly as possible so that the institutions would know where they stood. We received the recommendations of the advisory committee in the spring of this year. The consultation period was at an awkward time, but I pay tribute to all the institutions that wanted to give evidence for the admirable evidence they gave us.

Does the Secretary of State accept that the maladroit exercise that he attempted to carry out during the summer vacation has now led to 10 institutions being closed without any reason whatever being given? The reasons for this whole exercise have not been explained to the House. Will he allow time for a debate and say why he has still gone far above the ACSET limit in the closures that he is proposing and why he has hit some institutions that have invested in courses that are in short supply and which we should be expanding?

Ministers face an invidious decision in applying what they regard to be the right reductions. We must take into account a number of factors, including the quality of the different institutions, the primary age range that we wanted to encourage, the advice of ACSET, the recruiting record of the institutions, regional factors and others, together with the skills covered by the different institutions. All those matters had to be reconciled to produce an answer that was bound to be invidious, whatever the list may have been. The hon. Gentleman understands that very well, and he is trying to make mischief out of pretending otherwise.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his decision not to close Newman college in Birmingham has caused great satisfaction throughout the West Midlands?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I was convinced by the arguments of the Roman Catholic Church that I had been a little too sharp in the provisional decisions arrived at.

As the right hon. Gentleman's decision includes further college closures in the North-East, in addition to the closure of both the colleges in Northumberland in earlier years, how does he intend to achieve the objective he has accepted of setting up a major teacher training centre in the North-East?

The hon. Gentleman must remember that the colleges that we are closing in the North-East have been recruiting at less than 50 per cent. of the places established. We shall be taking the advice of the national advisory body in trying to build a strong teacher training centre in the North-East.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the great bitterness in Greater Manchester about the proposal to cut teacher training at De la Salle college? Is he aware that that college did all it could to develop a new role, which he is now sabotaging? Is he confident that enough teachers will be trained in Catholic schools even to teach religious instruction by the 1990s?

We do our best to make sure that, taking into account the actual recruiting by the Catholic colleges and the use of Catholic teachers in Catholic schools and elsewhere, we shall keep pace. As to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, equally sincere arguments could be advanced for each institution.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in Lincolnshire we are thankful that the Bishop Grosseteste college will remain open? We are grateful that he listened with an open mind to our arguments and recognised the quality of the teachers produced by that college as well as its contribution to life in Lincolnshire.

I am glad that my hon. Friend and his neighbours are pleased, but we shall have to look carefully at how the college recruits over the next few years and how it responds to the opportunities with which it is now presented for development and innovation.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received from the National Union of Students on the level of student grants.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will meet the National Union of Students to discuss the level of mandatory awards.

I have received a detailed submission from the National Union of Students concerning, among other things, the level of student grants. I shall be meeting representatives tomorrow to discuss it.

As the Government have now announced an increase in the level of student grants, albeit totally inadequate to meet the increase in students' cost of living, does that mean that they have taken the wise and sensible decision not to introduce a system of student loans which would militate against working-class entry into the universities?

The Government have taken no decision one way or the other on student loans.

Is the Minister aware that the reported 4 per cent. offer to students would mean an extra 27p per day to students on the main grant? As a result, many students will fall into debt, as has already been shown by surveys in Sheffield, Glasgow and Stirling universities, and will militate against working-class students taking up places at universities.

As the participation rate in higher education last year was the highest for a number of years, it does not seem to have militated very strongly.

As most students at university are over the age of 18 and, therefore, independent adults, and as the Chancellor of the Exchequer will apparently be able to reduce taxation in the next Budget, will my hon. Friend ask him to do away at once with the iniquitous parental contribution which divides students into two classes—those who get the full grant and those whose parents who for one reason or another either cannot or will not pay the parental contribution?

The objective of both Labour and Conservative Governments has been to do away with the perental contribution, but it is expensive. One of the advantages of introducing some element of loan might be a diminution of the parental contribution.

Given that so large a part of a student's outgoings are represented by rent for halls of residence or their equivalent, and that the increase in that has been far more than 4 per cent. in recent years and is likely to be so in the next year, how can the Minister possibly justify raising the grant by only 4 per cent.?

Like other aspects of public expenditure, the student grant must relate to what we can afford. I admit that in the past year the increase in hall fees and other things in some institutions has been more than 4 per cent., but in others it has been near it. Next year we hope that few will find it necessary to increase hall fees by much more than 4 per cent.

Does the Minister recall describing the system of post-school student support as a tangle? Will he acknowledge that he has made the system much more tangled by failing to consult the National Union of Students at any time in the process of determining this grant settlement? There will still be 350,000 further education students—against a background of record youth unemployment—without any grant support at all. The settlement now made for students means that the most they can expect is an additional £63 a year, which apparently is rather less than the Chancellor leaves in change in his trousers.

I am not sure whether this tangle would have been sorted out by a meeting with the NUS. Many longer term and expensive options are involved, which the hon. Gentleman finds it easier to pay for while he is in Opposition, which is where he will remain.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he has received and studied a copy of the National Union of Teachers' pamphlet on the condition of many of the United Kingdom's primary school buildings.

My right hon. Friend is examining the report, which he received last week, in order to judge whether it adds to the information already available to him in the national expenditure statistics collected by his Department and the annual survey of the effect of local authority expenditure policies undertaken by Her Majesty's Inspectorate.

If the Under-Secretary's right hon. Friend is now reading the report, why did the Under-Secretary jump in immediately the report was published and attack it when it was clear that he had not read it? Does he not realise that when such a report is published about conditions in many primary schools and when, according to the HM1 report, the cuts are having a deleterious effect on schools generally, it must be regarded as a serious report that shows that the fabric of those schools is in a parlous condition? Is he aware that he is beginning to earn the name Mr. Squeers, because he is reducing some of these schools to the level of Dotheboys Hall?

The hon. Gentleman, who is an expert in instant indignation, accuses me of being such an expert by attacking the report. I read that report in the newspapers, because the NUT did not have the courtesy to send a copy to the Department of Education and Science, and I felt that the record had to be put straight.

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is important to keep a sense of proportion? Does he further agree that while none of us want children to be educated in nasty buildings, the quality of education that goes on inside them is the important thing? Finally, does he agree that such education is often not affected by whether a building is new or old, whether lavatories are inside or outside, or by the factors that have been mentioned in the NUT report?

I always try to maintain an objective view of those factors. I agree that education is better inside than outside a school. I also agree that the calibre of staff, their commitment to what they are teaching, and the curriculum are decisive—not one or two improvements on the outside.

Does the Minister agree that the NUT report confirms Her Majesty's Inspectorate's report on school provision, to which he had access before the rest of us? Will he confirm that that report stated that no fewer than 63 of the 96 education authorities mentioned had inadequate buildings? Does he further agree that if, as I believe, the standard of education is greatly dependent on the standard and commitment of teachers, rundown buildings and his vicious, unpleasant and hypocritical remarks about teachers are damaging teacher morale and therefore damaging the standard of education?

It is interesting to note that the Government published Her Majesty's Inspectorate's report. When the Labour Party was in Government, it kept the report secret. We are prepared to have our actions judged by the public. We are spending more per child than ever before. To talk in terms of cuts is to indulge in hyperbole beyond imagination.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on Croxteth comprehensive school.

As a result of statutory proposals published by the Liverpool education authority and approved by my right hon. Friend, Croxteth comprehensive school closed in August 1982 and a new school was established at Ellergreen in September 1982 to serve the needs of the Croxteth and Ellergreen communities. The premises of the former Croxteth school are now unlawfully occupied.

Is the Minister aware that about 180 youngsters are attending Croxteth school and being taught by voluntary teachers? As the level of youth unemployment in that area is one of the highest in Britain, and as there is a complete lack of facilities for the largest housing estate in the area, will the Minister reconsider his decision, which is causing anguish to both parents and pupils?

To be fair to the Government, we did not close the school. The local education authority proposed section 12 action to us and we agreed. The hon. Gentleman understands that. We agreed to the closure because if one added together the pupils at Croxteth and Ellergreen schools last year they would have constituted only a five-stream school. Moreover, the population of the schools was continuing to fall. It was obvious that Ellergreen school was more popular—it has a sports hall and a sixth form centre—so we agreed to the closure.

Is the Minister aware that not only school provision but community provision is at stake in Croxteth? Is he further aware that the Liverpool Liberals, who are now supported by the Secretary of State, are destroying a community asset, which will lead to a breakdown of law and order in the area?

Liverpool council intended to use the Croxteth school building for community purposes. It is unfortunate that it is being occupied. It would have been used for youth training, adult education classes, a library and day care for the elderly. If some schools in Liverpool are not closed the rest will be only half full within the next four or five years.

Does the Minister believe in parental choice, or does he not?

I am delighted—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I shall answer. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman raised that point. It is interesting to note that one-third of the children in the Croxteth area contracted to go to schools outside that area with their parents' consent and only one child from outside chose to come in.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will revise the regulations about mandatory student grants in the light of recent decisions of the courts about what constitutes ordinary residence in the United Kingdom.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will amend the three-year normal residence rule in relation to statutory educational grants.

A number of cases concerning the ordinary residence requirement of the mandatory awards regulations were recently considered by an Appeal Committee of the House of Lords. My right hon. Friend will consider whether any amendment to the regulations is necessary in the light of the forthcoming judgment.

What possible justification is there for a person who spends four years in the United Kingdom on a work permit, pays British taxes, and then spends another two years in the United Kingdom without any conditions being imposed on his stay here, being treated as a foreign student? Does the Minister agree that that smacks of a vendetta against foreign students? If the House of Lords judgment goes in what I believe to be the wrong way, will the Minister change the regulations?

I am aware of the hon. Gentleman's interesting constituency case. In so far as the matter relates to the House of Lords decision, I cannot talk about it now. Nevertheless, the issue will be reviewed in the light of that judgment.

Is the definition of what constitutes ordinary residence a matter for the DES and therefore a uniform standard that is applied throughout the country, or is it a matter for each education authority to interpret in whichever way it wishes? Is the Minister aware that a harsh interpretation of what constitutes normal residence may be discriminatory, especially against the immigrant community?

Although the DES gives guidelines, it is for the institutions and local authorities to make judgments. We are aware of variations. The matter will be subject to review.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he agrees with the view of the advisory committee for the supply and education of teachers that by 1990 a major expansion in secondary training places will be needed.

We agree with the advisory committee in projecting an increase in the demand for newly trained secondary teachers in the early 1990s. The committees recognise that it is impossible to assess the need for additional training places to meet that demand until nearer the time.

Why, in the meantime, has the Secretary of State treated the advisory committee's recommendations so frivolously? Why have 10 teacher training colleges, especially those that specialise in developmental work, been shut? What scope does he envisage for ensuring that special needs of groups such as the 16 to 19-year-olds will be met in the meantime?

At the lowest point we shall be training 7,000 new secondary teachers, for a demand of 4,700. It would be a frivolous misleading of those students' expectations to train more for jobs that will not exist.

Does the Minister agree that by closing the initial training scheme at De la Salle training college, he will be closing the college permanently?

Yes, Sir.

Does the Minister agree that it is scandalous that these proposals were announced the day before Education Question Time and with no debate in the House? What guarantee do we have that the proposals will be debated and some amendment be possible?

I am sure that if we had announced the proposals the day after Education Question Time the hon. Gentleman would have said that that was another type of trick. He must pursue the channels that are open to him for a debate.

As school rolls are falling, and as expenditure per pupil is increasing in real terms, does my hon. Friend agree that there is some point in the criticism that, marginally, we have been allocating too much to the provision of teacher training and too little to new school building or the restoration of many of the older schools? Will he bear that in mind when allocating money for the next five years?

I agree with my hon. Friend's underlying argument. It would be foolish to allow teacher training more than a reasonable share of resources. Resources should go to over-subscribed courses. Many of these are substantially under-subscribed.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many students were at Salford university in the last educational year; and by how many they will be reduced following the 44 per cent. cut in cash grants from the Government.

I understand that there were 3,812 full-time and sandwich students paying home fees at the University of Salford in the 1981–82 academic year. The University Grants Committee has given the university a target for 1984–85 of 2,750 students.

Is not the country crying out for technological growth? Are not the four universities most savagely hit by the cuts precisely those that are preeminent in this field? I refer to Salford, Bradford, Aston and Brunel. Will the Minister reverse these cuts without further delay?

The hon. Gentleman has been a little carried away. To say that those four universities are pre-eminent when among the competition are such places as Strathclyde and Imperial College would be foolish. Equally, the two universities that have done best were also former colleges of advanced technology.

Will the Minister discuss with the University Grants Committee why it asked Salford to raise its intake of part-time students by 75 per cent. and at the same time asked it to raise the fees for those same students by 150 per cent? What is the logic of that? How can Salford do even the things that the UGC now asks?

I am impressed by the fact that Salford is doing what has been asked of it. It is raising money from outside and building new connections with industry. I have no doubt that it will meet its targets.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on health education in schools.

As we said in our guidance document "The School Curriculum", health education should give pupils a basic knowledge and understanding of health matters both as they affect themselves and as they affect others. It should also help them to become aware of those moral issues and value judgments which are inseperable from such choices. There should be the closest possible co-operation between parents and schools when dealing with sensitive topics such as sex education.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that reply. Is he entirely satisfied with the quantity, quality and nature of health education currently offered in schools? Does he have plans to include this subject in basic teacher training? Will the Department issue guidelines on the instruction of this most sensitive subject?

I am sure that the training colleges, the colleges of education and the institutes of education will bear in mind this important subject of health education. As for schools, we in the Department have published a booklet entitled "Health Education in Schools", which covers diseases, accidents, dental health, drug and alcohol misuse, smoking and also sex education. I would only add that the school day is limited. It is the one thing that has not changed since 1939. The more one puts in, the more something else will have to come out.

In connection with our interest in health education and the health of pupils, will the Under-Secretary say why he has disregarded the intelligent report on school meals by the Select Committee? What is his response to the report of the National Union of Teachers, which says that health regulations are clearly being flouted in a number of local education authorities?

If health regulations are being flouted, that is a question for local authorities. The Education Act 1980 places the responsibility for school meals back on the local authorities, which are democratically elected bodies.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what reply he has given to the letter sent to him on 4 October by the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals about the effect of cuts on universities.

My reply agreed to a meeting with representatives of the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principles, as it requested. This took place on 2 November.

Do not all the announcements that the Minister made in written answers yesterday about resources for universities hinge on the unrealistic expectation that a 3½ per cent. pay settlement will be reasonable for university teachers, in the face of what they have received in the past few years?

I do not think that it is unrealistic in the light of falling inflation. University teachers would be wrong to think that extra money will be provided for settlements that exceed 3½ per cent.

Will my right hon. Friend keep an eye on the situation of which he was earlier made aware, and ensure that universities such as Exeter, which the University Grants Committee agrees has been under-funded, do not suffer as a result of over-expenditure by other universities?

I think I can assure my hon. Friend that that is most improbable, but I shall look at the matter.

Will the Secretary of State say how many academic and non-academic staff have been made unemployed as a result of these cuts?

Not without notice.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether any correlation exists between a local authority's expenditure upon education and the academic results achieved in that authority's schools.

The academic results of a school depend on many factors, in particular the abilities and aptitudes of the pupils, their home background, the resources available to the school and the skill with which it uses them. Satisfactory results require a minimum level of resources. Beyond that, other factors become increasingly important.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is it not true that higher than average spending in the county of Hertfordshire has achieved significantly better results for schools in public examinations? Will my right hon. Friend make certain that Hertfordshire county council is not so starved of funds that it will have to reduce the resources needed to achieve those results?

I congratulate the people of Hertfordshire and their authority on the results. It does not follow that extra expenditure always produces higher academic achievements.

asked the Prime Minister what has been the decrease and increase in the real values of child benefit and the State retirement pension since May 1979.

The real value of these benefits at the uprating later this month will not be known until later in December when the retail price index figures up to November will be published. But if we assume, for illustrative purposes, that inflation to November is further reduced to 6·5 per cent. then the real value of child benefit at the uprating will have decreased by about 4 per cent. since April 1979, and the State retirement pensions will have increased by about 4·5 per cent. since November 1978 in real terms.

I should like to pass on the thanks of pensioners for the increased reduction in the rate of inflation, which is of great advantage to them. Does my right hon. Friend agree that between now and the Budget it will be well worth the Government considering possible adjustment to the real value of the pension? Is she aware that the reduction in the retail price index includes the drop in mortgage interest, which does not affect pensioners, who also find their income from building societies reduced? Does my right hon. Friend agree that an increase in child benefit plays an important part in achieving lower pay settlements, which will determine the rate of inflation in the future?

A reduction in inflation is good news for us all, as my hon. Friend recognises. There are perhaps some misunderstandings about the pensioners' price index. If the pensioners' price index had been used as the basis for uprating pensions since the Government took office, the current pension would now be between 3 and 4 per cent. less than the actual rate. Food price increases have been very much less under this Government than under the previous Government.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that her reply shows that great injury has been done to child benefit by this Government? There cannot be any dispute about that. Can the right hon. Lady explain why she thinks the pension is too high? [Interruption.] How can she justify cutting it next year? Will she say how much money the Treasury intends to recoup by cutting the pension next year? How much extra will the pensioners have to contribute?

No one is cutting the pension. If, in the last Budget, we had not over-estimated inflation, the pension for a married couple would have gone up this month to £51·60. In fact, it is going up to £52·55, nearly £1 a week more. That means that this year pensioners will have a bonus of over £50. Next November the pensioners will keep this extra £1 a week, plus whatever further increase is necessary to maintain the value of their pension over the lifetime of the Parliament, as we promised. How the right hon. Gentleman can refer to a bonus of £50 extra this year as a cut is a mystery.

The right hon. Lady has not even attempted to answer my question, because if she did she would expose the falsity of her argument. How much money does the Treasury hope to recoup from the clawback? It will be money taken from the pensioners. Will the right hon. Lady recognise that the Government's proposals are an outrage? Will she undertake to put this matter at the top of the Cabinet's agenda on Thursday and to allow the pensioners to gain some advantage from the fall in inflation?

I shall repeat my remarks, because the right hon. Gentleman clearly did not hear. This year—[Interruption.] I shall answer the question my own way, with figures that will doubtless be unwelcome to Opposition Members. This year pensioners will receive a bonus of £1 a week—which is nearly £52 for the whole year—over and above the amount that would have been necessary to protect the pension from price increases. They will keep that amount next year. It will not be clawed back. They will keep that amount next year and there will be an extra sum added to it for further increases in prices, which, over the period of a Parliament, will protect the pension from prices. That is an advance and a bonus of £50 for this year which would not have taken place if we had stuck to strict price increases.

The simple question is: how much will the Treasury get from the pensioners as a result of the clawback?

For the whole year, a married couple this year—

Answer the question.

Order. The Prime Minister must be allowed to answer the question.

For the whole year, this year, a pensioner married couple will be £1 a week better off as a result of the uprating than they would have been if the uprating had gone hand in hand with price increases. That is a bonus. A bonus does not give the Government money, but puts more money into the pensioner's pocket. That money is paid for not by Government, but by the working population of our country, who have had their national insurance contributions put up to pay for it.

To put it more simply—[Interruption]—does my hon. Friend agree that if the clawback next year—[Horn. MEMBERS: "Ah!"]—is less than the overshoot this year, that is another way of saying that there has been an increase in the standard of living for pensioners and other beneficiaries?

I note that my hon. Friend prefaced his remarks with "To put it more simply". I must say that I did not find that promise maintained in his question. There is nothing that I can usefully add. It is remarkable that when many people have not received wage increases of anything more than 4 per cent. or 5 per cent.—and some have received less—the great working population of Britain is providing an 11 per cent. increase in pensions and other benefits. We should thank them and congratulate them on that.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 9 November.

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House I shall be having further meetings later today. This evening I hope to have an audience of Her Majesty the Queen.

Will the Prime Minister reflect today on the statement made yesterday in the House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and explain why the three most disadvantaged groups in our society—the old-age pensioners, the sick and disabled, and the unemployed—are apparently being called upon to make the most substantial financial contributions or sacrifices to pay for the Falkland Islands exercise?

An increase in those benefits of 11 per cent. at a time when many of the working population are obtaining much less means that those groups in our society are receiving preferential treatment, paid for by the working people. I note that the hon. Gentleman wants to put his hand deeper into the pockets of the working population.

On what basis of economic logic or whatever does the Prime Minister disclaim responsibility for unemployment and take full credit for the decline in inflation?

The decline in inflation can in large measure be governed by what Governments do about the money supply and by what they pay to their employees. The level of unemployment largely depends on the type of goods that are produced by our factories and whether they are of a design and price that will ensure that they are bought by the working population. I am amazed that the right hon. Gentleman should even ask that question.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in only a few weeks' time the law of the sea treaty is due to be signed in Jamaica and that we still do not know whether the Government will sign it on behalf of the United Kingdom? Will my right hon. Friend ensure that one of her colleagues makes an early statement on this important subject, because divided views are held and there will be serious results whichever way the decision goes?

I am well aware of some of the clauses in that treaty. There is no doubt that the clauses on mining the sea bed would be very disadvantageous to this country, although there are other clauses, such as those concerning freedom of navigation, that would help us. We must consider carefully the balance of advantage before deciding whether to sign the treaty. At the last meeting, we did not vote for it.

Is the Prime Minister aware that the Minister for Health recently told me that he intended to see a report about the proposed closure of the breast cancer screening clinic at the Royal Marsden hospital? Will she make it her business to see the report and give an undertaking to ensure that the comparatively small amount of money—about £100,000 per annum—that is needed to keep the clinic going will be provided, so that many women can be cured of breast cancer and so that even more can be relieved of anxiety?

I am not privy to the conversations between my hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Health and the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Short). I know of the problem of that hospital and it is under consideration at the Department of Health and Social Security.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 9 November.

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave some moments ago.

Has my right hon. Friend seen the report in today's edition of The Times, saying that members of the National and Local Government Officers Association are threatening mass resignations against the union's hard-line unilateral nuclear disarmament policy? Does that not once again confirm that the British people want their Government to work vigorously for world peace, but on the basis of multilateral disarmament?

I wholly agree with my hon. Friend. One-sided disarmament by this country would be an extremely dangerous step. It would imperil peace and jeopardise the freedom and justice that are essential to our way of life. This Government will never enter into one-sided disarmament. They require disarmament to be multilateral, as that is the only way of gaining peace and security.

In the light of the American vote in the United Nations on the Falkland Islands, and of the CIA's gun-running activities with the IRA, does the right hon. Lady really consider the United States, of America to be so reliable an ally that we should have cruise missiles in Britain from the end of 1983? Will she now cancel the programme?

I understand that there is no truth in the assertions about the CIA and the gun-running activities. With regard to the United States' vote on the United Nations resolution, I have made clear my views and disappointment at the action that they took, but it would be a mistake to fail to recognise that the United States is the final guarantor of peace and freedom and justice on our Continent of Europe. That peace and freedom and justice are safeguarded by the NATO alliance as a whole.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I listened carefully to the Prime Minister's reply to the question of my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Foot) about pensioners. Is it right that the Prime Minister should—

Order. The hon. Gentleman knows that he must not involve me in arguments between the two sides of the House on matters of policy.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In relation to written question No. 84 and the statement by the Secretary of State for Energy last week that he would make a statement soon, may we take it that there will be a statement made to the House, rather than in the form of a written answer, either today or later this week?

I have had notice from the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Rees) that he wishes to raise a point of order on that matter after the statements.