European Council (Voting)
79.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the use of majority voting in the European Council.
The European Council's task is to provide strategic direction and general political impetus to the Community. Majority voting would not be appropriate for this purpose. The European Council therefore proceeds by consensus.
Does not the system of qualified voting on the budgetary provision end any effective United Kingdom say in the amount of money spent on agriculture, and will this not be even more so when Spain and Portugal join the Community?
The hon. Gentleman's supplementary question refers not to the European Community but to the Council of Ministers, where different procedures apply. It has been the case for some time that a qualified majority applies in budgetary matters, but the hon. Gentleman should also bear in mind that new arrangements have been reached on agricultural guidelines that will control agriculture expenditure.
In view of the persistent frustration of an emerging consensus on policies of direct advantage to the United Kingdom through the abuse of the veto by countries such as Greece, is not the balance of the argument now shifting in favour of going back to the original concept of the treaty and accepting majority voting in those cases where it is specifically provided for?
There are many circumstances in which the Presidency can request a vote, and it would then be up to the country concerned to decide whether it wished to apply the veto. Recently it has been the practice for voting to take place rarely, but there is nothing either in the treaty or in what is called the Luxembourg compromise that prevents further voting if the Presidency of the day so chooses.
Does the Minister recognise that at many of the previous European Council meetings matters of detail and not of broad strategy have been discussed by the Heads of Government? When that is so, would it not be appropriate to move towards a majority voting system?
The hon. Gentleman is correct in that it has been one of the causes of concern that European Councils have often had to deal with matters of detail. When the European Council is dealing not with matters of strategy but with points of detail, it takes on the form of a Council of Ministers and can take decisions in the normal way.
Spain And Portugal
80.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he now expects the accession of Spain and Portugal to take place.
As I said in reply to the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike) on 23 January, we are working for completion of the negotiations as soon as possible so that Spain and Portugal may accede on 1 January 1986.
If the accession of Spain and Portugal is one of the exceptional events that allow a change in the terms of budgetary discipline, will the Minister give an undertaking that the accession of these two countries will not mean increasing the 75 per cent. of the budget that is already spent on agricultural affairs?
The need for budgetary discipline is separate from the question of enlargement, although I freely concede that if there were no budgetary discipline, enlargement would create additional problems. It is the common desire of the House and of the member states that the proportion of total expenditure should be reduced and should continue to decrease, and the formula agreed so far on agricultural exenditure means that agriculture will progressively represent a lower and lower share of total Community expenditure.
What account has my hon. Friend taken of the employment implications for the United Kingdom of the accession of Portugal and Spain to the Common Market? Is he aware that, in particular, the textile, clothing, paper and board industries will suffer enormously? What account has he taken of this factor, bearing in mind that, for the United Kingdom, there is no economic benefit from the accession, and that the European Economic Community is now a political community and nothing to do with economics?
It is certainly the case that there is concern in various quarters about the implications of enlargement. It is for this reason that tough and lengthy transitional arrangements are being insisted upon. I cannot agree with my hon. Friend that there are no economic advantages to the United Kingdom. For example, the arrangement that has been reached on industrial tariffs and controls on imports of motor vehicles to Spain means that the present duty will be reduced by over half in the first three years after Spain's accession. That should give opportunities to the United Kingdom in that important area.
As a tax increase to 1·4 per cent. was envisaged to cope with the Iberia enlargement, if that enlargement is delayed will the Minister guarantee that no such increase will be made? After all the talk of financial discipline, as agricultural spending is already punching big holes in the EC budget, will he assure the House that he will not be coming back for even more money for EC agriculture?
The proposed increase in own resources is caused by several factors, of which enlargement is only one. The Federal German Government have indicated that they could not support the introduction of any increase in own resources until after the ratification of the accession treaty has been completed. In regard to the hon. Gentleman's second point, we have already said that it may indeed be necessary in the current year to provide for further supplementary finance if the own resources provision is not brought forward.
Does my hon. Friend not regret that it has been left to the Greek Government to take a robust and sensible attitude to the accession negotiations? Does he agree that it is always more important to get the right answer, however long it takes, than to attempt to rush Spain and Portugal into the Community on the wrong terms?
My hon. Friend is correct. He will reflect that Spain's application for membership of the Community was made seven years ago, so I do not think anyone can be accused of rushing the negotiations. In regard to his comment on Greece, Greece is simply concerned about integrated Mediterranean programmes. It is openly and blatantly using its objectives in that respect as a bargaining point to try to achieve what it believes to be appropriate.
Is the Minister aware that the Labour party supports the accession of Spain and Portugal to the EC? Given the shambles at the Foreign Affairs Council yesterday, where does this leave the practicalities of accession on 1 January next year and the consequent EC funding crisis? Is there not genuinely a monumental crisis that cannot he shoved under the carpet any longer? West Germany will exercise a veto on any increase in own resources unless accession takes place before an impossible date; the British rebate is almost certainly doomed and the Community is running out of cash. How precisely will the Council of Ministers resolve the EC financial nightmare?
I am pleased to hear that the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues are in favour of Spain joining the community. I would be pleased to hear an equally unequivocal statement that they are in favour of Britain not leaving the Community. That itself would represent considerable progress. The hon. Gentleman correctly referred to the difficulties and problems that the Community faces. There is no belief within the Community that these problems cannot be resolved. Various proposals are on the table and it is reasonable to assume that over the next few weeks major progress will be made.
External Identity
81.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress has been made at the ad hoc Committee on Institutional Affairs concerning an external identity for the European Economic Community.
In its interim report, which is available in the Library of the House, the committee has identified a number of useful ideas to enable the Ten to strengthen their foreign policy co-operation and make it more effective, complementing the Community's existing trade and development policies.
Can the Minister inform the House whether, when the Prime Minister has discussions with the President of the United States, she will urge him to abandon his policy of destruction and destabilisation in Central America? [Interruption.] Will she bear in mind the Dublin declaration, which clearly said that the only solution to the Central American problem—
Order. I am not sure that that question has much to do with the EC.
It has.
Has it? All right.
It is the bully boys over yonder who are causing the trouble. Will the Prime Minister bear in mind the Dublin declaration, which was associated with the EC, and which stated that the solution to the Central American problem lay not in the use of armed force but in political efforts?
As I am the British member of the ad hoc Committee on Institutional Affairs, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that this is not a subject that we have discussed so far. It may be appropriate for our next meeting, and I shall bear the hon. Gentleman's interests in mind. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will bear in mind any statement made by the Heads of Government at meetings that she attends.
Is my hon. Friend aware that most people are far less concerned with the development of an external identity with the Community than with the removal of the many obstacles to the free movement of trade and services within the Community and with the ending of such absurdities as the directive that requires businesses with a turnover of only £18,000 to register for VAT?
One of the unanimous recommendations of the interim report of the committee to which the question refers is a strong desire for early and maximum progress on the completion of the internal market. This is one of the most important priorities for the British Government.
Expenditure
82.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is the most recent estimate of the date by which European Community expenditure could not be met by the present rate of Community receipts, without recourse to an increase in the own resources value added tax rate or supplementary finance.
Uncertainties surrounding the rate of Community expenditure do not permit a precise estimate of the date by which additional resources will be required. In forwarding the draft 1985 budget to the European Parliament, the Council undertook to meet additional budgetary requirements by 1 October 1985.
If and when the Government come back to the House for authority to increase the net contribution to the Community above the £900 million provided for next year, will he assure us that, first, the Government will consider the relative merits of that increased finance against other means and, secondly, that the House will have an early opportunity to debate the wisdom of that supplementary finance?
I have no doubt that, if it is necessary to ask the House to approve supplementary finance for this year, the House will have the same very full opportunity as it had recently to express its views. It has been made clear to the other member states that the approval of the House of Commons is required before any additional expenditure can be agreed.
Why has the Community not budgeted to spend within its anticipated income?
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that there is a conflict of responsibilities within the Community because of the way in which the treaty is drafted. There is a limit on the resources available to it this year, and that is a legal responsibility that it has to accept. There are also certain legal responsibilities to meet the entitlement of private citizens and others who benefit from Community expenditure. It has not been possible to reconcile these two requirements.
Will my hon. Friend accept that most right hon. and hon. Members think that there is nothing uncertain about Common Market expenditure and that it will continue to be out of control? May I remind my hon. Friend that the Economic Secretary to the Treasury promised us, almost on the Holy Grail, that we should not be asked for more money? Yet even today we are told that the House will be asked to give more money to the EEC. When shall we get this monstrous organisation under control?
I read the minutes of the evidence that the Economic Secretary gave to the Committee of which my hon. Friend is a member. I can assure him that the Economic Secretary gave no such assurance. He has gone out of his way, at the Dispatch Box and elsewhere, to say that it may be necessary to have supplementary expenditure this year. Her Majesty's Government have striven more than most to control Community expenditure.
It was because of the Government's efforts that the very substantial new proposals on budgetary discipline were finally agreed by the Community.83.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if the Foreign Affairs Council has considered a further supplementary loan as a way of financing European Economic Community expenditure in the coming year.
Council discussions are at present continuing about the best way of financing Community expenditure in 1985.
I should like to remind the Minister of the precise words of the Economic Secretary to the Treasury on 22 January:
How can the Minister reconcile that statement with the statement that he has just made? If he is to request the House to approve a further supplementary loan, will he at least guarantee that that loan will not be supported by the Government until the burden of expenditure in the European budget is redirected away from agriculture and towards the reduction of unemployment?"I should like to think that supplementary budgets for the European Community would not be a thing of the future"—[Official Report, 22 January 1984; Vol. 71, c. 884.]
This is the final year before the new budgetary discipline proposals come into effect. It is for that reason that expenditure that may be incurred by the Community this year has not had the benefit of the control and discipline agreed upon last year at Fontainebleau. Only when the budgetary discipline proposals have come into effect, beginning with the price-fixing discussions on agricultural prices within the next few months, will we be able to judge their effectiveness.
Is it my hon. Friend's estimate that the supplementary finance that will be required for 1985 is likely to be even greater than the £120 million required for 1984?
The Commission has come forward with certain figures—
Answer the question.
The Commission has come forward with certain figures which, at the moment, it maintains represent sums that will be due. We have not yet had an opportunity to consider them in detail. If the figures are correct, they represent a larger amount than for the previous year. However, the Government intend to scrutinise very carefully—as they did last year— any proposals by the Commission, in order to see whether the figures are unnecessarily high.
The result of all this Government voyeurism—these careful scrutinies—is always to give in to the Community. Does the Minister agree that, as a matter of fact and practice, there is no chance whatever of the Commmunity avoiding bankruptcy this year unless Her Majesty's Government pay over a large part of the rebate owed to us since Fontainebleau?
If the right hon. Gentleman had done his homework he would have appreciated that on the last occasion when voyeurism—as he so politely describes it —took place, the Commission's proposals were reduced by more than half through the efforts of my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary.
The Government have not yet received the money.
Yet again, the right hon. Gentleman is incorrect. The rebate for the year to which I have just referred was paid and the House was not asked to approve any further proposals until that sum was paid.
What about this year?
At the discussions that have just taken place in the Foreign Affairs Council there was unanimous agreement that that sum has to be paid, in accordance with the provisions of the Fontainebleau summit. Her Majesty's Government are confident that that obligation will be properly satisfied.
Fontainebleau Agreement
85.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what benefits have accrued to the United Kingdom as a result of the Fontainebleau agreement.
The following have accrued to the United Kingdom as a result of the Fontainebleau agreement: payment of our 1983 refund of £430 million; an abatement of £625 million for 1984; a lasting mechanism for the future which will require the United Kingdom to contribute only half what it would otherwise have had to pay to the Community budget; and an agreement on the control of Community spending, including agricultural spending.
The Minister's reply is amazingly complacent, as his replies have been all afternoon. The Fontainebleau agreement was supposed to have ended the haggling, but, as the agriculture budget for 1985–86 is to increase by 6 per cent., the haggling will continue. How can the Minister claim that there is any such thing as budgetary discipline in the EEC?
My answer was not complacent. I gave a factual answer to a factual question. As a result of Fontainebleau, over £1,000 million has already been paid to the United Kingdom, quite apart from the additional advantages to which I have just referred. That was what the hon. Lady asked, and that was the answer that I gave. For the first time in its history the EEC has agreed to a tight procedure for the control of expenditure. As I mentioned earlier, the agricultural price proposals of the Commission have to be framed within that procedure, and we believe that this marks a new opportunity for the Community properly to control its expenditure.
Does my hon. Friend agree that the Fontainebleau agreement would have been even more effective if it had included certain quid pro quos, notably a freer market on matters affecting EEC trade, such as freer access by the British insurance industry to the German insurance market, which has so far been denied us?
That is indeed a great priority of the United Kingdom and something which the President of the Commission has said will be one of his priorities during his term of office. The Fontainebleau agreement was concerned with ending once and for all the budgetary imbalance problem that the United Kingdom faced. By an overwhelming majority, the House has welcomed that agreement.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Are you aware that, through no fault of yours or of right hon. and hon. Members who are deeply concerned about the many vital issues that are raised during Foreign Office questions, once again the House has managed to cover only a tiny handful of the questions on the Order Paper before going on to European Community questions at 3.10 pm. Are you further aware that approaches were made some weeks ago through the usual channels to abolish the distinction between Foreign Office and Community questions or, at a minimum, to extend the time available for Foreign Office questions by five minutes, at the expense of Community questions? Can you use your good offices to ensure that there is rapid progress on this matter?
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Although I do not agree precisely with the proposal of the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), there is widespread support for his general worry about the division between the 78 questions for the rest of the world and the 17 questions concerning EEC matters. The House has already agreed that questions relating to Overseas Development should be taken on a separate day. There might be a precedent there and I ask you seriously to consider this matter, as it worries many hon. Members.
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. This matter has been raised on other occasions and you stated at the time that it should be pursued through the usual channels, but so far, as you know, there has been no solution. Is it not worrying that, for example, yesterday, those of us who joined a picket outside South Africa House—
Order. I do not think that this is anything to do with me.
I realise that what is happening in South Africa is of no interest to Tories, but those of us who are interested made it clear yesterday that, as the House was to have Foreign Office questions today, we would have an opportunity to try to catch your eye. In the event, it was not possible to raise the issue of the police action and repression that is taking place in South Africa on the few questions that were reached.
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I hope that you will ignore the request of the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey). Perhaps we need a special session of Common Market questions, but the idea that the needs of Guatemala and Nicaragua and all of those other places are more important than the nonsense that goes on in the Common Market is ridiculous. It is not that we have too many questions on the Common Market but that we have too few. I hope that you will see that we get more, not fewer.
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. While I recognise the division in the ranks of the Labour and of the Conservative parties on the Common Market, do you agree that, if this matter is suitable for decision through the usual channels, the participation of the alliance parties is extremely important and should be acknowledged?
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wonder whether you have noticed that, during the past 12 months or more, ever since the Common Market ran into extreme financial difficulties, almost every hon. Member, including most of those who were eager to get into the Common Market, now make continuous and long complaints—
Order. This is nothing to do with me.
I have not quite finished. I shall only be a minute.
Order. That is nothing to do with me.
That point has nothing to do with it. I am just asking, Mr. Speaker, whether you had noticed, as I have, that no hon. Member, apart from those at the Dispatch Box, stands up to back the Common Market, which is one of the biggest uneconomic units in the world, whose reserves—
Order. This does not concern me.
I will get to it.
I do not know whether the hon. Member will get to it. We have a very long day ahead of us and I am taking points of order. Perhaps this is an appropriate moment to say that this has absolutely nothing to do with me. I am taking points of order because I thought that it would be interesting for the Leader of the House to hear about this matter. There is nothing more for me to add.
My point of order, Mr. Speaker, is— Mr. Speaker: Order. All right, come on.
I was just getting to it. It was a long preamble, but it was not so long as the Minister's earlier answer. My point of order is that because hardly any hon. Member will stand up and support the Common Market, it would be a good idea if this country got out of it. Twenty minutes would then be saved and that time could be spent on Foreign Office questions.
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. While not wishing to challenge your ruling, which I respect, I should have thought that it was appropriate, on the day that the Prime Minister is meeting President Reagan to discuss star wars, for a statement to be made on the Floor of the House—
Order. The hon. Lady and I have had some correspondence about this matter. She must not pursue it.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I should be grateful for your assistance upon a very important matter for the whole House. As you know when we joined the European Community we did so on the basis that 1 per cent. of the nation's VAT resources should be applied in that direction—
Order. This has nothing to do with me. The hon. Gentleman must raise a point of order to which I can respond.
It relates to the nature of the debate and discussion of the parliamentary measure which should be introduced to deal with such matters. As you know, Mr. Speaker, not long ago the House had to vote on the extended loan to the Community of £120 million of taxpayers' money. From the answer of my right hon. Friend this afternoon, the Chancellor—
Order. The hon. Gentleman is trying to do something which I thought we had stopped doing—that is, prolonging Question Time. I think that we should now proceed to the ballot for notices of motions.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I understand the difficulties you have in this unruly place. May I ask you to have regard, when calling hon. Members, to those hon. Members who have put down questions on foreign affairs? I understand your difficulties, Mr. Speaker, but today several Members who have not shown sufficient interest to put down questions have been called while those hon. Members who have put down questions have been ignored.
The hon. Member has frequently heard me say that I try not to do that.