House Of Commons
Thursday 28 March 1985
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
Prayers
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Private Business
Birmingham City Council Bill (By Order)
Order for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time upon Monday 1 April.
As Bills Nos. 2 to 5 have blocking motions, I shall, with the leave of the House, deal with them in a single group.
Felixstowe Dock And Railway Bill (By Order)
Greater London Council (General Powers) Bill (By Order)
Lincoln City Council Bill (By Order)
Yorkshire Water Authority Bill (By Order)
Orders for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time upon Thursday 18 April.
Oral Answers To Questions
Home Department
Drugs (Importation And Distribution)
1.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will consider the setting up of multi-agency task forces dedicated to the prevention of illegal drug importation and distribution.
We have no plans to establish a task force of this kind. There is already very close and successful co-operation between Her Majesty's Customs and Excise and the police in combating drug trafficking, through the central drugs intelligence unit and in other ways. But I shall certainly look closely at American experience of its task force programme in the course of a visit which I shall be paying to the United States in a few weeks' time.
Does my hon. Friend agree that often the major drug traffickers can be indentified only by their assets and banking transactions? Will he and his Treasury colleagues devise some formal structure to enable the Inland Revenue to share information with other agencies so that those investigating drugs and other organised crimes do not continue to operate with their hands tied behind their backs?
As my hon. Friend knows, we are considering giving the courts improved powers to confiscate the assets of those convicted of serious crimes, including, of course, drug trafficking. The availability of information about financial matters and the stage at which that information can be made available will be a key part of that process.
As there has been an increase of about 65 per cent. in the last three years in the number of registered addicts, apart from those who are not on the register, how can the hon. Gentleman be so indolent about the matter, remembering that 1,000 Customs officer posts have been got rid of in the last five years?
The hon. Gentleman falls below his normal level in what is a travesty of the situation. We have tried to ensure that the register of drug addicts is an accurate reflection of the number of people who are addicted. Indeed, we have been encouraging family doctors to notify addict numbers. It turns logic on its head if, as we seek to improve the accuracy of the register, we are criticised for the number of persons on the register, many of whom will have been addicted to drugs for some years.
As regards Customs officers, the hon. Gentleman well knows that there is all the difference in the world between manpower reductions on static checks and an increase in intelligence. For example, there has been an increase of nearly two thirds in the number of officers engaged in intelligence work on heroin. That has led to a dramatic increase in the number of seizures of drugs and convictions of drug importers.Is my hon. Friend aware that we are approaching the season of festivals, open-air concerts and similar gatherings and that drugs are often distributed at such events? Does he agree that chief constables in areas where such festivities take place must co-ordinate their activities to deal with the problem?
I am sure that chief constables, whose duty it is to do what my hon. Friend asks, will take careful note of the commonsense point that he raises.
Given the success of the Department in sequestrating the funds of the National Union of Mineworkers, is it not time for the Government to apply the same rigours to sequestrating the funds of those who sell and ply heroin, who cause enormous misery, yet who are able to salt their money away in safe havens and who often avoid extradition from countries, such as Spain, where extradition agreements are non-existent? If the Minister agrees that it is time for a rigorous attitude to be taken, when does he intend to introduce legislation?
The hon. Gentleman's supplementary question would have been more pertinent without the rather shallow simile that he applied at the beginning. I understand that always he finds these temptations hard to resist. He has put to me the idea of improving procedures for the confiscation of assets as if that were a new thought. My right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary has been saying for 12 months now that we are working actively on finding a new power. Twelve years ago the House thought that it had solved the problem. It is clear now that it had not. We are now considering the Hodgson report. The hon. Gentleman will know — [HON. MEMBERS: "Too long".]—as should one or two of those who seem to be involved in organised barracking on an important topic—
Nonsense.
—that it is much easier to define a problem than to resolve it. We are working hard on the problem.
Will my hon. Friend do something about the internal battles which are carried on between the police and Customs and Excise in the investigation and prosecution of drug offences?
My hon. Friend has raised an important point. As far as I am aware, there is good liaison between Customs and Excise and the police. I believe that some accounts to the contrary are overdone. He may be interested to know that about six months ago the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis set up a high-level committee to further that liaison between the police and Customs and Excise. I believe that that committee is working to good effect.
Is it not right that the Government must take a major share of the blame for the substantial increase in drug addiction that has occurred every year since they came to office? The Government have reduced the number of Customs officers, allowing more cocaine and heroin to enter the country. They have failed properly to co-ordinate the activities of Customs and police officers. Most importantly, they have created the social conditions, in terms of unemployment, which have allowed drug abuse to flourish. How does the hon. Gentleman feel as the Minister who has presided over the largest ever increase in drug addiction, deaths and destruction of young people's lives?
Perhaps it was an improvement when the hon. Gentleman was saying "Nonsense" from a sedentary position instead of rising and engaging in an all-purpose rant that will not enhance his reputation in this place. However, if that helps him with the Knowsley, North reselection procedure, we shall not mind too much.
Hampshire Constabulary
3.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has received for an increase in the establishment of the Hampshire constabulary.
Last year, following a reorganisation of the force, the Hampsshire police authority applied for approval for three additional police posts. We welcome the reorganisation, but my right hon. and learned Friend was not prepared to agree to the additional posts, because further consideration was being given to recruiting civilian staff, which might release more police officers for operational duties.
Despite the exemplary dedication and professionalism of the Hampshire constabulary, the crime rate in the county, and especially in Basingstoke, has risen considerably. The media locally and nationally make much of the fact that this is due partially to existing manpower being inadequate. Does my hon. Friend agree that at the very least existing funding should be made available so that police forces can operate at full establishment level, which is not now the position? Preferably, more funds and greater establishment should be encouraged.
I am sure my hon. Friend will agree that the overall pattern of recruitment into the police force has improved markedly since 1979, with over 9,000 officers additional to establishment. The Hampshire establishment has increased by 130 police posts since 1979. However, I understand my hon. Friend's view that there should be further examination of the proposals which the Hampshire constabulary seeks to make. If it has found the opportunities for civilian recruitment, there might well be a case for re-examining what it has said.
Is my hon. Friend aware that yesterday consideration of the Controlled Drugs (Penalties) Bill, to provide tougher penalties for drug traffickers, was completed, and that during the course of that consideration my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department mentioned—
Order. The question is directed to the establishment of the Hampshire constabulary.
Indeed, Mr. Speaker. During the course of considering the Bill in Committee, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department mentioned that one part of the Government's policy was to ensure that the police in Hampshire and elsewhere have the powers to enforce such legislation. Is my hon. Friend confident that the Hampshire police have those powers? It is no use passing laws in this place if the police are unable to enforce them.
My hon. Friend is right. It is my right hon. and learned Friend's duty to examine every police establishment to ensure that it is capable of executing its duties efficiently and economically I can assure my hon. Friend that this review of establishment takes place regularly with a view to ensuring that the legislative load can be carried on a sufficient number of shoulders.
Is the Minister aware—
Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman that the question relates to Hampshire.
Indeed, Mr. Speaker. My supplementary question is directed to Hampshire. I can include the New Forest and the little ponies as well, if you wish me to do so.
Is the Minister aware that the problem faced by the Hampshire police force must have been evident for the past 12 months? If the Hampshire police force was understaffed and undermanned, and if it seemed unlikely that it would be able to resolve all the problems facing it, why did the Minister and the Home Secretary agree to send several thousand policemen, including many from Hampshire, to the coalfields of Yorkshire and elsewhere to try to smash the National Union of Mineworkers?I think that that is an uneconomic supplementary question, and that it should be closed.
Children (Deportation)
4.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many children have been deported or removed from the United Kingdom since 1979.
Few people under the age of 18 are either deported or removed. I regret that figures are not available to show either their number or the number who leave with their parents against whom such action has to be taken.
Is the Minister aware that large numbers of children who were born in Britain or who are British citizens are being driven out of this country because of the way in which the immigration laws operate? Is that not an absolute disgrace? Will the hon. and learned Gentleman agree to review the whole issue?
The hon. Lady is entirely wrong. All those children who were born in Britain before 1 January 1983 and who therefore automatically became British citizens — although perhaps their parents were here illegally or temporarily —could not be deported, because British citizens cannot be deported.
I remind my hon. and learned Friend that the present immigration rules are a substantial relaxation of the promise made by the Tory party in 1979. If the application of those rules were relaxed in the face of pressure, such as that put upon my hon. and learned Friend by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Miss Maynard), there would be real resentment and anger in those areas which have had to bear the brunt of heavy immigration.
My hon. Friend has gone very wide of the question on the Order Paper. The Government have conducted a well-balanced immigration policy. For that reason, immigration was not a big issue at the last election. We can take pride in that policy. We should try to talk about these issues moderately. It is sad that the Opposition often try to make party political points out of them. We have every reason to believe that we are carrying out a well-balanced policy.
While the Minister is considering the plight of deported children, will he consider the position of the 25 unaccompanied teenagers who are confined to closed camps in Hong Kong? Will the hon. and learned Gentleman admit some of those teenagers to Britain and urge other Governments to admit the rest of them?
The right hon. Gentleman has gone wide of the question as well. We are anxiously studying the position of those people in camps in Hong Kong. At the moment, however, we are discussing our immigration rules in so far as they bear on young children and may result in their deportation. In fact, few children are deported.
Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that about a million young people, including under-age children, come to this country every year as so-called language students and that about 10 per cent. of them do not return home? What does my hon. and learned Friend propose to do about that?
I shall look into any cases that my hon. Friend brings to my attention.
I must revert to the question. I am sorry that we do not have the statistics that would enable me to give an exact answer to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Miss Maynard), but I hope that the House has got matters into perspective. Between 1979 and 1984, only 23 persons in all were deported as dependants under section 3(5)(c) of the Immigration Act 1971. Perhaps none of them was under 18, or perhaps one or two were.Does the Minister agree that women with children are often placed in very distressing circumstances because of the sex discrimination in our immigration laws? Before the European Court tells him to do so, will he undertake to remove sex discrimination from within the existing immigration rules?
We are talking about the power to deport children. Whatever the hon. Gentleman may be referring to, he is certainly not talking about anything which has the remotest connection with the power to deport children. He is suggesting that we should relax the immigration rules to allow young men to come here, using marriage as a device, and to go on to the labour market. That would not commend itself to the vast majority of the British people.
Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that the vast majority of immigrants, from wherever they may have come, are more than happy to be living in a free and democratic country? The Labour party is using immigrants, irrespective of colour, to gain cheap votes and to make propaganda in this House.
I repeat what I said before. It is most unfortunate when the Opposition stir up the immigration issue, because the vast majority of those who have settled here are, as my hon. Friend has said, very proud to be members of our community.
The Minister referred to a well-balanced policy. Is he seriously suggesting that it is well balanced if, in 1983, it resulted in 137 children who wanted to come into this country being detained at ports because the Minister wanted them to be removed? Is the Minister denying that, at least from time to time, both he and his Department seek to remove young children? In my constituency a six-year-old boy is under the threat of removal, not with his mother, but separately, because the Minister will not allow him to stay here while his immigration status is being resolved.
Although the Opposition always wax so eloquent about these matters, they never tell even half the story. They talk about the number of people who are deported now, but they never mention the number of people who were deported prior to 1979. One finds that the figures are very alike. They talk about the number of people removed, but they never mention the number of people removed prior to 1979. Again, the figures are very similar. I wish that the Opposition would realise that this is a sensitive issue and would tell the House the whole truth.
Shops Acts
6.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he intends to announce the Government's final response to the Auld committee report.
7.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent representations he has received on the Auld report on Sunday trading.
16.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to be able to announce the Government's final conclusions on changes in the Shops Act 1950.
19.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he intends to deal with the law relating to shop opening hours; and if he will make a statement.
I have consulted my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, and he has agreed that there will be a debate on the Auld committee's report as soon as possible after Easter, in which I shall announce the Government's intentions in respect of its recommendations.
Since the report was published, we have received 528 letters about the report, of which 166 favoured its recommendations and 362 opposed them. I do not think that any significant conclusions can be drawn from these figures.Will my right hon. and learned Friend bear in mind, during his consideration of his response to the Auld report, that the introduction of universal Sunday trading may well result in the creation of many more part-time jobs? Will he therefore join the lobby for two other essential reforms: first, the extension of job-splitting and work-sharing schemes; and, secondly, the abolition of the wages councils?
As I wish to retain my present job, I had better not join any lobbies for the moment. However, I understand the force of my hon. Friend's question and have some sympathy with it.
We are very pleased to have news of a debate in the House of Commons. However, before that debate takes place, will my right hon. and learned Friend give thought to the alternative approach of allowing each local authority to make up its own mind about whether or not to permit Sunday trading?
I shall bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said.
Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the number of letters he has received and the ratio for and against Sunday trading reflect the acute anxiety of the public that complete liberalisation will destroy the traditional British Sunday?
I am not sure that I would draw that conclusion from those letters. It is always extremely dangerous to judge the effect of a proposal or the views of the country about it on the basis of such letters.
Mr. Michael Forsyth.
rose—
Yes, Mr. Rhodes James. I am sorry. I have a lousy cold.
Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that although many of us would welcome changes which would remove anomalies in the present law, some of us would be strongly and wholly opposed to unrestricted Sunday opening?
I respect and understand that view, but my hon. Friend will, of course, look at those parts of the Auld report which examined the possibility of partial changes and came down against them.
As such legislation as might flow from this would have the result of allowing shops in Wales to open on Sundays, and as that would be a matter of controversy, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider introducing into any legislation a provision such as that for the Sunday opening of public houses — a referendum of the people concerned?
I am not an enthusiast for referendums of any kind, but I shall bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said.
Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that many Conservative Members will be pleased that he is not taking too seriously the representations that he has received on the Auld report, because it is our clear view from our constituencies that the overwhelming majority of the people we represent are strongly in favour of Sunday trading and the reforms?
I am aware of the extent of that feeling as well. It is not that I am not taking the representations seriously; it is merely that I do not necessarily regard them as representative.
Is the Home Secretary aware that Labour Members have been inundated with letters from bodies such as the Lord's Day Observance Society? Now that the Government are beginning to wobble, the Home Secretary should beware of a combination of the Church and the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers.
I am sure that that is a apt warning, and, coming from the quarter that it does, I shall take it in the spirit in which it was intended.
Crime Prevention
8.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how his Department intends to improve crime prevention.
The crime prevention unit, and the Home Office standing conference on crime prevention, which I chair, are actively engaged in the development and evaluation of a range of precise measures to prevent burglary, theft and auto crime. The results of those initiatives are disseminated to police forces and other local agencies involved in the prevention of crime.
I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, but may I suggest one further immediate initiative that he can take? We are all grateful for the marvellous increase in police numbers in Britain, which the former Home Secretary instituted, but is not the time now ripe for a massive increase in the police force, as that is one of the most socially desirable increases in manpower that Britain can have?
I appreciate my hon. Friend's remarks and his tribute to our noble Friend Lord Whitelaw for his achievement in increasing police numbers since 1979. I am sure my hon. Friend will recognise that the effectiveness of the police force depends not just on numbers, but on deployment and skills applies. I am sure he will recognise that, for example, the use of civilians to allow more officers to be deployed on operational matters is also an important contribution.
Why will the Minister not be clear and straight with the House in the way in which he frequently is in other matters? He knows that the answer to the question is that the Government have no plans to improve crime prevention. They have cut back on just about every scheme designed to prevent crime in Britain that has ever been devised. It is no wonder that the crime rate is going up, and it is no wonder also that people are getting fed up with the Government's approach to law and order when it is so clearly an abysmal, dismal failure.
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is well versed in dismal failures. However, I remind him of the range of activities that the Government have introduced. There are over 3,000 individual neighbourhood watch schemes and 200 crime prevention panels, including 60 schemes in Cumbria. The Government have a total commitment to the improvement of police establishments, conditions and pay, in order to continue the fight against crime. I regret to say that the hon. Gentleman would see that dissolve if he were in power.
Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the most important things is neighbourhood crime prevention schemes? Will he give that idea every encouragement, as that is the only way in which the police can be adequately informed, and by which people can know exactly what is happening in their areas?
My hon. Friend is quite right, and I fully support his view. It is vital that citizens, too, play their part in preventing crime.
Civil Defence
9.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what information he has as to the number of full and part-time civil defence staff employed in Mid-Glamorgan.
There are two full-time emergency planning staff employed by Mid-Glamorgan county council on civil defence duties.
Does my hon. Friend accept that the level of staffing that he has described in Mid-Glamorgan is quite inadequate? Although the levels in many counties, including my county of Norfolk, are higher, there must be a good case for my hon. Friend to take steps to increase the levels of civil defence staffing so that counties, including Mid-Glamorgan, can meet their obligations under the 1983 civil defence regulations.
My hon. Friend is right, but perhaps I can enhance his comments by saying that the situation in Mid-Glamorgan is little short of lamentable. That local authority seems to take absolutely no precautions to provide some civil defence protection for its citizens. I assure my hon. Friend that we shall be taking steps to see that this matter is put right, not just in Mid-Glamorgan, but in every authority where there is a deficiency.
Will the Minister confirm that the Home Office's senior civil defence organiser recently visited local authorities in Wales? What was the purpose of that visit? Did the organiser visit Mid-Glamorgan? Is the Minister aware that the whole of Wales is a nuclear-free zone? The Minister is wasting his time trying to convince local authorities in Wales to adopt such a stupid and irrelevant programme.
I appreciate the hon. Lady's views, but I should inform her that the civil defence adviser visited Mid-Glamorgan to try to persuade that authority to complete the questionnaire, as it is the only authority in England and Wales that has not yet done so. Many nuclear-free zone authorities have returned their questionnaires and intend to make some provision for civil defence. I trust that the people of Wales will enjoy some measure of protection.
Does my hon. Friend agree that a nuclear-free zone in Wales is a big joke there, and is not, and never will be, accepted? It is purely Labour party political propaganda. [HON. MEMBERS: "Reading".] Will my hon. Friend tell me about his Department's allocation for civil defence in South Glamorgan for 1985–86?
Order. The question is about Mid-Glamorgan.
I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for that correction, as it enables me to say that I cannot give my hon. Friend the figure for South Glamorgan. However, I shall write to him about that. Nevertheless, I assure him that we have every intention of seeing that a proper level of civil defence preparation is put in hand. Nuclear-free zones are entirely bogus.
Video Recordings Act
11.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will take immediate steps to ensure that the classification of videos is completed without delay so that the Video Recordings Act can come into effect.
15.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to bring into force the Video Recordings Act 1984; and if he will make a statement.
The Video Recordings Act provides for the classification of video works under arrangements to be made by an authority to be designated by the Secretary of State. My right hon. and learned Friend proposes to designate the principal officers of the British Board of Film Censors.
Following the recent death of the president of the board, Lord Harlech, a successor is being actively sought. We hope that it will be possible for an appointment to be made very soon and for particulars of the proposed designation to be laid before Parliament shortly thereafter.I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that reply. In the light, in particular, of the judge's remarks in the case of the Fox, is my hon. Friend satisfied that sufficient staff are available at the British Board of Film Censors to complete this vital work so that the designations are on the record and on the statute book?
Increased numbers of staff are being taken on by the BBFC in anticipation of designation. The video referred to in the trial of the rapist known as the Fox has already been declared obscene under the Obscene Publications Act 1959, so the availability of that video and the bringing into force of the Act are not linked.
Does my hon. Friend agree that pornography is a drug, and a very dangerous drug at that, as it rots the mind and can persuade individuals to commit great violence and cruelty against innocent people? Will he note that it was not only the judge in the Fairlie trial who linked pornography with the crime, but that many other judges in similar trials in the last 20 years have made that link?
Order. I do not think that that has a lot to do with the Video Recordings Act.
With great respect, Mr. Speaker, it was the video which was linked in the Fairlie trial with the crime committed. I am merely asking my hon. Friend to bear in mind that all these factors mean that we need action very quickly indeed.
As I said in answer to the original question, I am anxious that we should get this designation procedure completed as soon as possible.
Does the Minister not appreciate that that will not begin to solve the problem? On the one hand, "tendency to deprave and corrupt" is a difficult matter to prove in prosecutions under the Obscene Publications Act. On the other hand, juries will not convict unless a more intelligent view is taken of the need to prosecute at all in this class of case.
The hon. Gentleman referred to the Obscene Publications Act. One of the attractions of the Act is that the issue will be tried by magistrates. The content of the video is not a matter of which magistrates will usually have to take account. The question at issue will be whether the video has been certificated by the designated authority. Thereby, many of the difficulties which the hon. Gentleman has properly brought before the House are circumvented.
Civil Defence
17.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether there is a civil defence emergency centre in Mid Glamorgan.
There is no civil defence emergency centre in Mid-Glamorgan.
Will my hon. Friend tell the House when we should expect operational centres to be available in Mid-Glamorgan, because it is important, in the context of civil defence, that they are there for any other disasters that may take place in the county of Mid-Glamorgan?
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that this is a disastrous state of affairs. There should be eight such centres in the county of Mid-Glamorgan. We have already taken the initial steps by contacting the local authority in order to put things right.
18.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he takes to monitor the implementation of the Civil Defence Regulations 1983 in the Principality of Wales.
The civil defence questionnaire last year to all county authorities provided a basis for the development of further monitoring. This will be achieved primarily by visits from the civil defence adviser to the Home Office, but also by questionnaires, as appropriate.
Will my hon. Friend announce minimum standards which must be reached within a set time limit within the Principality?
My hon. Friend should know that we have agreed to require all local authorities, including those in the Principality, to set down their plans for implementing the 1983 regulations by the end of this year.
In so far as the authorities are prepared to implement the civil defence regulations, will the Minister also make available to those authorities the details of what would happen in the event of the nuclear winter, which details I believe his Department is at the moment suppressing?
I assure the hon. Gentleman that we have had discussions with most of the local authority associations on various matters connected with civil defence, including that particular theory. The hypothesis of the nuclear winter has yet to be properly validated, and until it is so validated the Government cannot take a view on it.
Industrial Disputes (Police Operations)
25.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will call for reports from chief constables about how they plan to review and learn from police operations during the coal dispute.
Chief officers of police are reviewing police operations during the miners strike both individually and collectively through the Association of Chief Police Officers. These reviews will be completed as soon as possible and the Department will be keeping in touch with their progress.
Will my hon. Friend please also consider the financial aspects of policing in the different authorities?
I understand that we have a lot to learn about the way in which financial consequences can properly be accounted for and dealt with.
Now that the miners's strike has ended—even officially it seems—will the Minister reconsider his Department's decision not to have a public inquiry into the strike? May we have a full public inquiry so that people can properly examine policing methods in the last 12 months?
No, I shall not reconsider that decision. A full review of what occurred is being conducted by the Association of Chief Police Officers, and each area will receive its own report on the different aspects of the strike.
Shop Acts
27.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many representations he has received regarding the reform of shop hours' legislation.
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given earlier today to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Waterside (Mr. Colvin).
Will my hon. Friend take into account representations by people all over the country, because opinions on the issue vary in the different regions?
Yes, Sir.
As it is likely that Sunday trading will be introduced—I am sorry to say — will my hon. Friend consider insisting that stores which are allowed to trade on a Sunday close on another day of the week?
All opinions will be considered.
Divided Families Campaign (Ministerial Meeting)
29.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement about the meeting of the Minister of State, the hon. and learned Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Waddington) with the Divided Families Campaign on 4 February.
The Bangladesh Divided Families Campaign from Oldham requested the meeting to voice its concern that families are separated by the operation of immigration control. I listened carefully to the views expressed on this and other topics, but I had to make the point that families are separated not by the actions of the Government, but by the actions of those who choose to come here leaving their families behind.
I told the campaign that it was necessary for those claiming to be dependants to establish their entitlement and I could not set aside the requirement of the immigration rules and allow people waiting in the queue, or who had had their application refused, to come here when they had not shown their entitlement.Is the Minister aware that the Divided Families Campaign now operates on a national basis because so many families are affected? Does the Minister accept that we are talking about the humane treatment of families, which is quite separate from other immigration matters? Is the Minister aware that he could take a decisive step to help those families if he ensured that the queue to be interviewed was shortened and if he placed more interviewing officers in Bangladesh, India and Pakistan?
Yes. The problem is intractable. There is a limit to the resources available to process entry clearance applications. I remind the hon. Gentleman that the year before last we sent an additional entry clearance officer to Dhaka. In the last two winters, two extra entry clearance officers have been helping with the preparation of appeals statements there so that entry clearance officers had more time to do the interviewing.
One must compare the situation today with that of a few years ago. Generally, queue lengths today compare favourably with the queue lengths back in 1979 and 1978. However, a real problem exists in Dhaka because so many people in the queue are reapplicants. We do our best.How can the Minister say that these families are not divided by the action of the Government, when the document leaked to The Guardian shows that there is a conspiracy in his Department, led by him, deliberately to spin out the queues and get round the law which allows people to exercise their right to come here? By the leaking of that document, a copy of which I have, has the hon. and learned Gentleman not been shown to be deliberately pursuing a restrictive and racist policy?
It is this intemperate language which proves the point that I was making half an hour ago. It does not help when, time and time again, the right hon. Gentleman gets up at Question Time, completely misrepresents the policy being pursued and completely obscures the fact that by and large that policy has been pursued by successive Governments. The truth of the matter is that the Labour Government realised perfectly well that there was a limit on the resources that could be dedicated to the job of entry clearance in Dhaka. We have followed exactly the same policy. We have recognised that there is that same limitation. Obviously, if we cannot devote unlimited manpower to doing the job there is a limit to the rate at which people will be admitted. It is as simple as that, and the right hon. Gentleman knows it perfectly well.
Prime Minister
Engagements
Q1.
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 28 March.
This morning I presided a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today.
During the course of her day, will my right hon Friend consider some of the industrial success stories that are coming out of Scotland? Does she accept that the order for £40 million shipping for Govan shipbuilders, the £50 million order placed at UEI and the continuing expansion of the electronics industry in Scotland are examples of the fact that the Government's policy is working, that Scottish industry is becoming more competitive and that the dismal Jimmies on the Opposition Benches should be ignored?
Yes, I agree with what my hon. Friend says. Despite the coal strike, industrial production in Scotland was up 3 per cent. on a year ago and the Locate in Scotland office has now had £1 billion worth of inward investment. I add that to my hon Friend's good news.
If the Government have so many success stories to pick from, why was it necessary for them to select for the Saatchi and Saatchi Conservative party broadcast last night the firm of Ferranti in my constituency, which, far from benefiting from the Government's work, relied entirely on a f15 million cash injection by the Labour Government in 1975 to save it? The only contribution that this Government have made to Ferranti is to make it necessary for that firm to have widespread redundancies because of Government cutbacks in orders and a refusal to allow the firm, at the first request, to expand its high-tech training school by 20 places.
Ferranti runs a very successful operation. It is extremely efficient and has done well in getting defence orders here and overseas. It is to be congratulated on its performance under this Government.
May I ask whether my right hon. Friend noticed the press speculation over the weekend following the visit of my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to Dublin? In view of the speculation, can my right hon. Friend assure the House and the country that we have no intention of doing anything other than strengthening the bonds that bind the United Kingdom together and, moreover, that in no circumstances will this Government contemplate another Sunningdale?
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. The position is exactly as set out in the communiqué after the Chequers meeting of the Taoiseach and myself. There will be no constitutional change whatsoever in Northern Ireland unless it has the full consent of the people of Northern Ireland, who are part of the United Kingdom.
Does the Prime Minister accept the advice in the report of the Social Security Advisory Committee that any overall reduction in social security expenditure would cause grave problems? Does it not strongly recommend that if there are to be any reductions in one part of the budget they should be channelled to areas of high priority need? Is not any simplification a costly move? Will the Prime Minister assure all those who are worried that there will be no overall cuts?
I understand that the report was only published today. I have not read it in its entirety—but I understand, of course, that the right hon. Gentleman may have done so. I have read a summary, and I am not prepared to give any undertakings before the full report of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services on his review is available. Any attempt to make us do so would be to deny both open government and a full discussion of matters which should be discussed.
Q2.
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 28 March.
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Can the Prime Minister spare a moment this afternoon to give this Chamber the benefit of her opinion on the disparaging comments made by her soul mate President Reagan in response to a considered statement by the Foreign Secretary on the star wars concept despite the fact that he admitted that he had not read it? Does she condone the abuse of the Geneva peace talks as a means of brow beating the President's opposition in the House of Representatives into authorising a budget allocation for just another means of delivering death to those who disagree with the United States?
The policy on the SDI is as I set it out after my meeting with President Reagan at Camp David, and as he set it out once again at a press conference when I was present. It has not changed in any way. Congress was right to reaffirm what President Reagan wanted for the MX missiles. It is right that the talks in Geneva are proceeding because of the strength and the will of the West, and not because of its weakness.
As the hon. Gentleman has criticised President Reagan, I must tell him that I thought that the United States acted with enormous restraint over the murder of one of its soldiers in Eastern Germany.Will my right hon. Friend find time today to reflect on the recent ballot of the National Union of Mineworkers? Is she aware that ever since Arthur Scargill became president every issue that has been put to the ballot has been lost? Is that not a wonderful example of how out of touch that man is with those whom he is supposed to represent?
I agree with my hon. Friend. During the present leadership of the NUM, every one of four ballots has been lost. The leadership has also deprived its members of one year's salary, which is utterly disgraceful.
May I commend the launch of the Britain means Business campaign, which is intended to secure a transfusion of foreign capital into this country? Is the right hon. Lady aware that it would be sensible for her to help Britain more by changing the policies which have led to a £12,000 million a year haemorrhage of investment capital from this country since the day that she became Prime Minister?
There was record investment in this country last year of £55 billion.
Is the right hon. Lady telling us that because there is an inflow we can do without the £50,000 million that has gone out of the country? Would it not be sensible to reintroduce policies — [Interruption.] I know that Conservative Members do not care about the betrayal of this country by people sending money out of it. Would it not be sensible to retain those funds so that we could generate much-needed investment and even more desperately needed jobs?
We had record investment in this country last year of £55 billion. We agree with the policy of putting some investments overseas — we need the income from them to repay the interest and dividends that have to go from this country because of the immense amounts of inward investment. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman believes in inward investment, because it creates many jobs. However, I do not think that he understands anything about it.
What I do understand, and what the British people understand, is that while the Prime Minister has let those precious funds leave the country, unemployment has gone up to over 3 million. When will she change policies to bring it down?
How does the right hon. Gentleman propose to pay for the interest that goes out?
By growth.
How does the right hon. Gentleman propose to pay for the dividends and interest that go out on investment that comes in here? It is not paid for by growth but has to be paid across the exchanges in cash. The right hon. Gentleman proves that he has not a clue.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that on 15 January the Leader of the Opposition asked my right hon. Friend the Chancellor to resign when the pound fell by 1·5 cents? As the pound rose 4·5 cents yesterday, does my right hon. Friend expect the Leader of the Opposition to ask my right hon. Friend to be reinstated three times over?
The world exchange markets are taking a different view of the dollar and are realising that the underlying strength of the British economy is very good for investment. They have noted record output, record investment and a record standard of living. That augurs well for the future.
Q3.
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 28 March.
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
In the light of the new agreement and partnership between Government and education announced by the Secretary of State for Education and Science on Tuesday, will the Prime Minister say what she intends to do in her role as a partner in the case of the teachers' dispute?
As the hon. Gentleman is aware, the teachers have been offered arbitration, but they have chosen not to accept it.
Q4.
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 28 March.
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Does my right hon. Friend share the anxiety of many of my constituents about the rising crime rate in London? Although I accept that the Government have done a great deal to fight crime, will she consider introducing additional measures to deal with the problem in London?
As my hon. Friend knows, the number of police has been increased considerably, equipment has been increased and the deployment of the police force has been improved. There are more bobbies back on the beat. Tackling crime is a task for the whole community — nobody can opt out. Everything that the Government can do is being done, and will continue to be done.
After her somewhat traumatic meeting with 25 young unemployed people from my constituency on Tuesday, does the Prime Minister accept that her suggestion that they move elsewhere and go into lodgings shows an amazing lack of knowledge of the level of unemployment in areas such as London and, if carried out, would be destructive of family life, which they value, and which the Prime Minister is supposed to support? In any event, are all of the 10,500 unemployed people in my constituency supposed to become industrial gipsies?
The hon. Gentleman is aware that these young people were told that in their area there would be 800 more community programme jobs. They also had an opportunity, which is afforded to few, to meet a manager in Vauxhall Motors Ltd., who told them that he was recruiting, a manager in I. J. Dewhirst, the clothing firm, who told them that he was recruiting, and a manager in Trusthouse Forte plc, who told them that he was recruiting. They also heard of a request that had come in while they were sitting there from another hotel group in Liverpool, which was recruiting, and they had the opportunity to meet the chairman and the area manager of the Manpower Services Commission. If they cannot take the opportunity provided by those interviews, it is very sad and a pity.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of us were surprised to be told in the Irish media that Tory Members interested in Northern Ireland had been "squared" in connection with a forthcoming initiative? Is she further aware that we are glad to know that the speculation in The Mail on Sunday is entirely unfounded?
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. He will recall that the Secretary of State for Scotland was so worried about that report that he published a statement, which my hon. Friend no doubt read. The position is as I described it earlier.
Q5.
asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 28 March.
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Does the Prime Minister accept that since her intemperate remarks against Church leaders last Saturday there has been mounting criticism of the personal attack that they imply? Is she now seeking to change the constitution so that bishops whom she appointed cannot speak out, or will she change her mind and for once listen to them, as they have a moral and spiritual duty to put her Government back on a sounder course?
In reply to the previous question, I should have said the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. I thought that the hon. Gentleman had a little sense of humour, but I now discover that I was wrong. Clearly, spring has not yet arrived in Southwark.
Business Of The House
3.31 pm
May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business for next week?
Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY 1 APRIL—Consideration of a timetable motion on the Transport Bill. Motions relating to the Housing Benefits Amendment and on the Housing Benefits (Subsidy) Regulations. Consideration of Lords Amendments to the National Heritage (Scotland) Bill. The Chairman of Ways and Means has named opposed private business for consideration at seven o'clock. TUESDAY 2 APRIL — Progress in Committee on the Interception of Communications Bill. Motions on the Supplementary Benefit (Requirements and Resources) Miscellaneous Provisions Regulations and on the Supplementary Benefit (Resources) Amendment Regulations. WEDNESDAY 3 APRIL —Further progress on remaining stages of the Interception of Communications Bill. Motion on the Road Traffic (Type Approval) (Northern Ireland) Regulations. THURSDAY 4 APRIL —The House will meet at 9.30 am, take Questions until 10.30 am, and adjourn at 3.30 pm until Monday 15 April.I am grateful to the Leader of the House. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us why he has chosen Monday for the timetable motion on the latest monumental folly of the Secretary of State for Transport? Is he aware that on Tuesday people representing millions of bus users and workers will lobby Parliament? Could not the Government for once have had the decency to give those people a democratic opportunity to influence events before bringing down the guillotine on a Bill which has no friends among bus users, managers of enterprise or workers in the industry?
Why shall we debate the Interception of Communications Bill on two successive days? Given the importance and controversy of the measure, does not the Leader of the House think that it would be sensible to have a day or two in between the two days' consideration for proper reflection and consultation to enhance the debate that will take place? On 14 March the right hon. Gentleman assured me that we could look forward to a foreign affairs debate in the near future. In view of the atrocious acts of the South African security forces during the past week, will he ensure that we have that debate directly after we return from the Easter Recess? Finally, I understand that at 3.30 this afternoon the Government are publishing a White Paper on employment. It is the first time that such a document has been published in 40 years. Why have the Government not chosen to make a statement to the House on that White Paper? Does the right hon. Gentleman consider it, as I do, to be a dereliction of duty to the public and to Parliament?Perhaps I may take the points made by the right hon. Gentleman in the sequence in which they were delivered. I believe that Monday is a good day to debate the timetable motion on the Transport Bill. The Bill has been in Committee for well over 80 hours and has made only modest progress. There is a real requirement on the House of Commons, as a working body, to take the matter further. Of course, I am sorry that it does not coincide with the outside representations that will be made, but I know that they will still be seriously considered by those hon. Members who are considering the legislation.
Secondly, I believe that the House is entitled to take two successive days to deal with the Committee stage of the Interception of Communications Bill. It is an important matter and we should try to make progress on it. Of course there are disadvantages in taking days in succession —I do not deny that—but there will be a gap before Report stage when matters can be considered—The third day of the Committee stage.
I hear what the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) says from a sedentary position. Those matters can be considered through the usual channels.
As to a foreign affairs debate, I recognise the importance of the subject, which has been underlined by the recent tragic events in South Africa. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we shall try to have a debate as soon after the Easter recess as can be arranged. Finally, the White Paper on employment that is published today is an important statement of Government policy, but it follows a debate in the House within the past few days when the matter was dealt with exhaustively — [AN HON. MEMBER: "That was the Budget."] Anyone would think that the Budget was a book-keeping exercise—It is.
The Budget concerns economic management on such a scale that the Opposition believed it important to ask the shadow spokesman on employment to take part in the debate.
Notwithstanding his somewhat partisan interpretation of my statement of next week's business, I wish to conclude by wishing the Leader of the Opposition a very happy birthday.Although I appreciate the world-shaking importance of some of the matters that my right hon. Friend has announced for next week, is he aware that many of us who have studied the American proposals for the strategic defence initiative and who have read the extraordinary speech by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the judgments arrived at by the Prime Minister, believe that it would be appropriate for the House to consider the strategic defence initiative before final decisions are made about it? Now that we have had an open invitation from the United States to take part —I hope that we will—should not Parliament have an opportunity to offer its judgment on the matter in the near future?
I note what my hon. Friend says, and I give it due weight and significance, but I ask him to consider this in the light of the promised debate on foreign affairs.
The Leader of the House will recall that repeatedly in recent years I have asked about the joint-venture, private steel-public steel Phoenix 2 programme, because one of its major components is the Tinsley park works in my constituency. Yet we learn today that that works will be closed. Does this not raise questions about the protracted length of the policy on joint venture programmes, which has undoubtedly cost Tinsley park investment and, therefore, modernisation; about this turn of events, which will enable the Treasury to swing costs onto the British Steel Corporation; about 1,100 jobs lost and the need for consultation between the Department of Trade and Industry and the Department of Employment; and about the future of Sheffield and south Yorkshire, which have been devastated since 1979 as a result of policies such as the one that has been before the House for the past four years? Does the Leader of the House believe that those matters should be discussed by the House at the first opportunity after we return from the Easter recess?
I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's point. He has been a doughty fighter for his constituents' interests in this matter over a number of years. Clearly I have made no provision for the matter to be debated before the Easter recess, and I cannot hold out any hope of Government time thereafter. I shall take account of what the hon. Gentleman has said and will refer his remarks to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry.
Will my right hon. Friend scrap some of the tedious debates on orders next week and give us instead a debate on the multi-fibre arrangement, in view of its great importance to the textile industries and the unsatisfactory answers given from the Government Front Bench yesterday?
I can understand those who wish to argue the virtues of a debate on the MFA. The orders that my hon. Friend is seeking to displace are of great significance to many hon. Members. I shall bear in mind the importance of a debate on the MFA.
Judging from the Budget debate, many hon. Members on both sides of the House do not believe that the Government have a strategy for employment. Will the Leader of the House make this document available, as it is rather surprising not to have any statement from the Secretary of State? There is a queue outside waiting for the document to be released, and many in it are Conservative Members.
I understand that the document has been released. I shall look into the matter.
Will my right hon. Friend accept that the construction by the Soviet Union in Antarctica of no fewer than seven major camps, two of them with runways of 2 km and one with a runway of 3 km, and the conduct by the Russians of a major air shuttle from Minsk to Vostok in the Antarctic represents more than one would normally consider as peaceful geological survey? May we have a debate into this, which represents a possible serious military threat to the South Atlantic and the southern flank of NATO?
This demonstrates one aspect of East-West relations that will feature in the debate on foreign affairs.
I ask the Leader of the House once more about the possibility of a debate on the report by the Commission for Racial Equality on immigration procedures. In doing so, I remind the Leader of the House that it is likely that in May the European Court will be pronouncing on certain immigration cases, in all probability to the embarrassment of the Government. Would it not be as well for the right hon. Gentleman if we get the CRE report out of the way before the European Court pronounces?
I am grateful that the hon. Gentleman has my interests so much at heart in making this request. I shall give further thought to it.
Has my right hon. Friend seen press reports today to the effect that 90 per cent. of the 12,000 animals imported into this country die en route, and are brought over in conditions that are inhumane and disgraceful? Could we have an early debate or statement on this important matter?
In the light of what my hon. Friend has said, I shall draw the matter to the attention of my relevant right hon. Friends, because I suspect that the matter touches on more than one Department.
Is the Leader of the House aware that the timetable motion on the Transport Bill on Monday will be looked on with horror by the transport authorities? This is a contentious measure, described by various Ministers as a leap in the dark or as an act of faith. We have already had a report from a Select Committee with a majority of Conservative Members containing strong objections to the Bill. Would it not be better to withdraw the Bill, rethink it and bring it back next session so that we can give it the scrutiny that it deserves?
I may be giving a disappointing reply to the right hon. Gentleman, but he may have an oppportunity to make a speech on Monday putting those arguments and persuading the House to agree with him.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that this morning a deputation of residents from the areas adjacent to Molesworth came to see my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Major) to express their anxiety about the disruption of their lives that is likely to take place at Easter through the actions of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament? As my right hon. Friend will know, many hon. Members have expressed their concern at the activities of CND. Would it be possible for us to have a debate before Easter so that the House can express its displeasure at the way in which CND has disrupted the lives of residents?
I sympathise with the point that my hon. Friend makes, but I must confess that all Government time is bespoken.
Is the Leader of the House aware that the repeal of section 10 of the Crown Proceedings Act is a matter of great importance to a number of severely disabled service men and ex-service men, as expressed in early-day motion 561? Although the matter was raised in the debate on the Easter recess, there was, understandably, no ministerial statement. Please may we have one?
[That this House calls for the repeal of section 10 of the Crown Proceedings Act, which provides total immunity against any legal action for negligence which results in the death or disability of a serviceman carrying out his day to day duties in peacetime; recognises that servicemen accept the risks in action, but believes that at all other times they should have the same rights as everyone else, including other public servants such as police and firemen; calls upon the Government to provide these basic rights for servicemen; and recommends that they should apply retrospectively, so that servicemen who are at present disabled through possible negligence are not excluded from such rights.]
I shall refer to the Secretary of State for Defence the right hon. Member's point about the Easter recess debate and his question.
Will my right hon. Friend find time before too long for a debate on road safety? The Select Committee on Transport recently produced a report which was received with considerable interest. It is time that the matter was discussed so that hon. Members on both sides may make their views known and the Government may come forward with their new thinking on this important topic.
I note what my hon. Friend says and will draw it to the attention of the Secretary of State for Transport.
It has been widely reported that Scottish Tory Back Benchers are meeting the Prime Minister today to protest about the revaluation and its effects on commercial and domestic consumers in Scotland. May we be assured that a statement on the subject will be made to the House before the Easter recess, and before the Scottish Tory party conference takes place, because hon. Members are entitled to know the facts before they are made known to that conference?
I would not wish to choose between two such distinguished bodies. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the matter was debated at some length on the Consolidated Fund Bill. However, I shall draw the attention of the Secretary of State for Scotland to the point that he makes.
My right hon. Friend will be aware of recent Select Committee leaks. Will he consider initiating a debate on, or conducting an inquiry into, the matter and particularly into leaks in connection with the Privileges Committee?
The report of the Privileges Committee is now available in the Vote Office.
The Leader of the House has referred his hon. Friends who asked questions about peace and disarmament to the forthcoming debate on foreign affairs. Is he aware that he cannot hide behind that strategy for much longer? He has used it on me on many occasions, suggesting questions to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the debate on the defence White Paper as suitable vehicles by which to raise questions about disarmament. Will he for once allocate a day to the discussion, not of foreign affairs or the defence White Paper but of peace and disarmament, an issue which is of crucial importance to the whole nation?
I understand those who argue that the topics concerned with disarmament stand in their own right and merit debate in their own right. I have the task of trying to reconcile all the demands that are made with the time that is available. I have an obligation to point out that disarmament is a vital and integral part of the wider issue of foreign relationships.
As the Standing Committee on the Transport Bill in nearly five weeks has reached only clause 9 in considering a Bill with 100 clauses, is my right hon. Friend aware that the sooner a timely and generous timetable motion can be agreed, the better it will be for all concerned?
I note my hon. Friend's remarks; I hope, therefore, that the business set down for Monday is acceptable, and perhaps he will be able to contribute to that debate.
As conflicting stories are circulating about the negotiations between the British and Irish Governments, will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for an urgent statement to be made? Is he aware that those such as myself, who hope that negotiations are taking place—one has the impression from Prime Minister's Question Time that the right hon. Gentleman knows rather more than what we were told by the right hon. Lady—feel that the House should be kept informed, in particular to avoid some of the rumours that are current?
The subject of the Province is always redolent with rumours. I shall take note of what the hon. Gentleman says and draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to his remarks.
As on Monday we shall, for the second time in a relatively short period, be debating a timetable motion, will my right hon. Friend tell us how he reacts to the suggestion which has often been made before — that one of the more efficient ways of conducting our business would be to introduce timetables on Second Reading?
As we have a Select Committee on Procedure which is examining precisely that subject, I think that it would be courteous to await its report before passing public judgment.
As the Government's supreme achievement in education has been single-handedly to unite the teaching profession for the first time—something which many Labour Members have been trying to do for years—will they realise that, with that unity, there will be a long struggle, to the detriment of children's education—a struggle which has been forced upon the teachers by the Government's wretched policies? Against the background of this serious situation in education, can we have a full-scale debate on the education programme and the struggle that the teachers are waging for a living wage?
I take note of what the hon. Gentleman says, but I cannot accept the premise on which he describes the present situation. I believe that a very fair offer has been made to the teaching profession. I shall of course refer the hon. Gentleman's comments to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science.
Will my right hon. Friend find time to allow the House to offer its advice to the Cabinet upon the proposal that the banks and the building societies should be able to carry out conveyancing for their customers and not only for themselves? Is he aware that many of my hon. Friends — I expect that many Opposition Members take the same view — find it difficult to understand how the conflicts of interest that are inherent in the proposal can possibly be resolved?
I have no proposals before me as yet to provide Government time for such a debate, but I shall bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said.
Is the Leader of the House aware that his non-committal answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Duffy) will be found unsatisfactory by the south Yorkshire steelworkers, whose jobs have been disappearing at a fantastic rate ever since the Government came to power? Does he understand that the terrible news this morning about the Tinsley park works is a direct product of the Government's disastrous industrial policy, which has reduced demand for engineering steels by nearly 40 per cent? Will he think again about the need for a debate on the steel industry in Government time in the near future?
The hon. Gentleman has made a highly contentious interpretation of what has happened at Tinsley park. I think that I gave a fair answer to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Duffy), and by that I stand.
Before all football stadiums in the country are ripped up, before every woman has been raped, before every child has been battered and before all old people have been mugged, will my right hon. Friend care to find time in the not too distant future to enable the House to have a full debate on law and order, sentencing policy and all related matters?
Just occasionally, powerful advocacy and even mild exaggeration win points in this place, but I do not think that I am encouraged by the terms in which my hon. Friend describes law and order in Britain. Of course, he has raised a matter of major concern in the House and among our constituents. However, whatever debates we have in this place must be related to some realistic reappraisal of what we can do to resolve the problems.
My hon. Friends the Members for Sheffield, Attercliffe, (Mr. Duffy) and for Rotherham (Mr. Crowther) have referred to the closure of the Tinsley park works, where many of my constituents work. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his answers to their questions were totally unsatisfactory? Does he realise that in the centre of Sheffield there are unemployment levels in excess of 50 per cent. and that the blow to the south Yorkshire steel industry of the closure of the Tinsley park works will not be taken lightly? The closure is extremely important to Sheffield, south Yorkshire and the steel industry as a whole. If there is any enlargement of the United Kingdom's manufacturing base, we shall sorely need the engineering steels which the Tinsley park works can produce. The works have better European and world records than any other comparable plant in the United Kingdom.
I appreciate hon. Members' desire to express succinctly their deep distress at what happens to industries in their constituencies, but I have to say to the hon. Gentleman, as I have said to the hon. Members for Rotherham (Mr. Crowther) and for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Duffy), that I shall report hon. Members' anxieties to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State or Trade and Industry. I thought that that was a reasonably forthcoming response.
Two or three months ago, my right hon. Friend said that when the BBC licence fee was announced the House would have a chance to debate it. Will my right hon. Friend now give the House that time, because many hon. Members, and many more people outside the House, believe that it is a matter for discussion in the House?
I do not think that my hon. Friend will be disappointed, because the Opposition have prayed against the order increasing the licence fee, as my hon. Friend will see on today's Order Paper, and a debate will take place in due course.
Why is the right hon. Gentleman bringing forward so early the guillotine motion on the Transport Bill? Is it because the Government are afraid that old-age pensioners will see threats to their concessionary bus passes, that rural areas will see threats to their weekend and evening services and that the transport industry will see the chaos that the Bill will create, or is it because the Government do not want to suffer the embarrassment of being unable to maintain a quorum in Committee, because they cannot get 50 per cent. of Conservative Committee members to attend the Committee's meetings? Is that the reason for the guillotine?
The hon. Gentleman's engaging eloquence is one reason that might have deterred me from bringing forward the timetable proposals. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that we have not been precipitate in bringing this measure before the House. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be convinced of that when he hears the arguments on Monday.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that those of us who have spent nearly 90 hours on the Transport Bill Standing Committee feel that the timetable motion is, if anything, overdue, bearing in mind that the Opposition spent 28 of the first 36 hours getting past clause 1 and that they have spoken for 80 per cent. of the total time? Is my right hon. Friend aware of the frustration of Government Back Benchers who want to make progress in examining the Bill properly?
When I hear such battle veterans as my hon. Friend I realise what a rookie I am.
Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for the Environment to make a statement soon about the threat of Merseyside county council's police committee not to provide a budget for the police authority in the forthcoming financial year and about the suggestion that commissioners may be sent into Liverpool? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the position of the chief constable in Merseyside is undermined by constant calls from Labour councillors on the county council for his early retirement or resignation?
The hon. Gentleman has outlined a most serious situation. I shall, of course, refer his remarks to my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment.
Since it has been suggested that the working party on football hooliganism, which was set up by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, has reported and since many Government Members would like to have the opportunity to point out that the latest outbreak of football hooliganism and violence is the fault not of the football clubs or the police, but of some magistrates who have been too timid in their sentencing, would it be possible to have a debate on this specific and important matter after the recess?
I can offer no hope of Government time to discuss that matter in the period immediately after Easter. I suggest that my hon. Friend should pursue his chances with such other opportunities as there are.
Now that we have the employment White Paper, to which the Leader of the House referred some time ago, could the reason why no statement accompanies it be the fact that, on page 20, the Government are yet again blaming the low paid for the unemployment level? Does the Leader of the House accept the fact that, since the Conservative party took office in 1979, wages to school leavers relative to adult wages have fallen by 8 per cent. for boys and by 12 per cent. for girls, yet youth unemployment has trebled? Young people's wages do not cause their unemployment.
I note what the hon. Gentleman says. He knows that this topic was available for debate in the recent past. I am certain that it will be a continuing feature of our debates in the months ahead, not least because we shall be taking the Finance Bill through the House. I would not wish to endorse any of the hon. Gentleman's remarks.
Will my right hon. Friend find time in the not-too-distant future to hold a debate on the whole structure of world trade so that we can compare fair trade with free trade and examine the idea advanced by certain Opposition Members that we should be looking towards some form of import controls — which would, of course, damage third world countries?
I appreciate that this topic is of great importance and interest to the House. Alas, the Adjournment debate on Monday on overseas trade does not really present my hon. Friend with the opportunity that he seeks, but there is no immediate opportunity for a debate on the matter. Nevertheless, I would remind my hon. Friend at least that I answered encouragingly the request for a debate on the multi-fibre arrangement.
On page 27 of "Employment: The Challenge for the Nation" we read:
If this is not a misprint or a distortion of the truth, is it not worthy of a statement or a debate?"Since 1979 the long-term decline in Britain's economic performance has been halted and reversed, under the guidance and stimulus of clear and resolute Government policies."
No. It is just an example of extreme political moderation.
In view of the very important contribution that small businesses make to the creation of new jobs in this country, will my right hon. Friend consider holding a debate on this topic rather than leaving it to be covered as a peripheral adjunct within the context of other economic and industrial debates?
Given again all the pressures on the time available to the House, I think my hon. Friend will find that there will be ample opportunity for this topic to be considered within the ambit of the Finance Bill, particularly if he is prepared to sit on the Committee.
Can we have a statement from the Government on their decision to support the deletion of the principle of prior informed consent from the Food and Agriculture Organisation's draft code on the export of pesticides? Does the Leader of the House understand the significance of that deletion to Third-world countries? Can we have a full statement on this matter which, is causing a great deal of concern to many hon. Members?
I will most certainly refer to the relevant Secretaries of State the point that the hon. Gentleman has raised.
Will my right hon. Friend find time for a debate on house building and planning applications? In my constituency we face the strange difficulty that, although nobody wants additional housing, last night the county council passed an order which will result in the building of 4,500 unwanted houses in the last green belt area of my constituency.
My hon. Friend has raised what I know is a very important point. However, I am sure he will agree that, in the context in which it was raised, it is very much a constituency matter. Therefore, I hope that he will feel disposed to try his luck with an Adjournment debate.