asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest unadjusted figures for unemployment in (a) Newport, (b) Gwent and (c) Wales; and if he will give the equivalent figures for 1979 on the most nearly comparable basis.

On 12 February 1987 the total numbers of unemployed claimants in Newport district, Gwent and Wales were 9,758, 27,708 and 171,393 respectively. Unadjusted figures for 1979 are not available on a basis which enables a valid comparison to be made.

Are these figures not critically high, despite the 19 changes in the method by which they are compiled? Is not the claim that unemployment is coming down a bit of a fantasy? Will the Secretary of State confirm that manufacturing output and investment are down on 1979 levels? Is this not a tragic legacy to leave after eight continuous years of office?

It is not a fantasy that unemployment is coming down. The legacy is that unemployment, seasonally adjusted, is down by 15,000 from its peak in March 1986. It has fallen for nine consecutive months and for 10 out of the last 11 months. The fall over the last 12 months of 1·1 per cent. is the largest drop of all the regions of the United Kingdom, as was the fall this month. This is good news for Wales, as I hope that the hon. Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes) will agree.

As notified vacancies are sometimes a better guide to the progress of the economy, will my right hon. Friend tell us about the changes in the number of notified vacancies for each of those months?

Not only are the unemployment figures down, but vacancies are up 2,390 on February 1986. Indeed, all the indicators point in the same direction—the number of regional selective assistance applications in the first two months of 1987, and the sharp reduction in redundancies over the last 12 months. Almost any set of indicators shows a strong recovery of economic activity in Wales and a great improvement in unemployment.

Everyone welcomes any fall in the unemployment figures, but will the right hon. Gentleman tell us how long, at this pace of reduction, it would be before the unemployment total was back to the still serious level of 1979?

If we go on at this pace of reduction, on the policies that we are pursuing, we will meet the Labour party's stated objective of reducing unemployment over the next two years. We have a policy that is working. The results show that it works. The Labour party does not have a policy, except to increase inflation and increase costs on employment generally, and almost certainly, therefore, to destroy the prospects that it seeks to create.

Will my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming the collaboration agreement that was signed this morning between British Coal and Ruhrkohle Oil and Gas which brings Ruhrkohle into the Point of Ayr coal-to-oil liquefaction project? Will he also welcome the simultaneous announcement by the Department of Energy that the £2·5 million worth of support for the project, which was conditional on acceptable private sector participation, will now be made available?

That project is relevant and will create jobs in north Wales. I can confirm that my right hon. Friend has made £2·5 million worth of support available, and that will cover the period of construction, commissioning and operation of the plant.

Does the Secretary of State have any further plans to reduce unemployment in mid-Wales, and in Teifi valley in particular?

There has been an improvement in the unemployment figures over the last 12 months in all Welsh travel-to-work areas. We recently announced a package of measures for the rural areas, including a series of special encouragements and incentives for the creation of new firms. I am sure that that will make a strong contribution to job creation in areas such as the hon. Gentleman represents.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how much was spent per pupil in primary schools in Wales in the most recent year for which figures are available; and what was the comparable figure for 1978–79, at constant prices.

In 1985–86 the amount spent per pupil in primary schools in Wales was £825. The equivalent figure for 1978–79 was £724.

Do those figures not make nonsense of allegations that primary schools in Wales are short of cash?

My hon. Friend is right, in that total expenditure has remained broadly constant in real terms. At the same time, pupil numbers have been falling. We now have the best pupil-teacher ratio, but I must admit that there are about 56,000 surplus places in primary schools. If we were able to eliminate the surplus places we would have more resources for primary schools.

Is the Minister aware of the lobby of Parliament tomorrow by parent-teacher associations to complain about education in Wales, and in particular about primary education? In view of the experience of parents and teachers, who are much closer to what is going on in our schools than we here are, how can the Minister justify the answer that he has just given?

I am aware of the intended lobby, but I understand that the parents are more than likely to complain about the disgraceful disruption in our schools. I hope that they will condemn Mr. Smithies, the general secretary of the NAS/UWT who says that the half-day strikes will continue until the election. That is a clear sign that he is trying to turn our schools into political battle grounds.

Will the Minister confirm that since the hon. Member for Staffordshire, Moorlands (Mr. Knox) last asked this question — which is becoming a little tedious — the position in our schools has worsened considerably in terms of the reality for pupils, in terms of the text books and materials that they need and in terms of the maintenance of the buildings that they attend? Is it not high time that adequate resources were allocated to ensure that the schools are worthy of the pupils?

It is clear from my answer that we are spending more per pupil in Wales. On materials we have made additional funds available, particularly for secondary school pupils involved in the general certificate of secondary education. However, it is up to the local education authorities to concentrate resources into capitation fees.

That was an evasive reply. Why is it that many schools in Wales, in spite of careful spending of capitation cash, have to apply it to basic items such as text books and stationery? Does the Minister agree that parents want smaller classes, more teachers, more nurseries and more books and equipment? Is it not shameful that our schools go begging while the Budget can assist, say, the Duke of Westminster's estate by about £600 million in inheritence tax?

Not only are there 56,000 surplus places in primary schools, but, taken overall, there are about 150,000 of them in primary and secondary schools in Wales. That means wasted expenditure of about £18 million per annum. That money could be spent on more worthy causes within education. In addition, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has made available extra money for education in the coming year.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales which health authorities in Wales permit fluoridation of water supplies.

The powers to permit fluoridation of water supplies rest with water authorities acting on requests from district health authorities. Certain areas within the Gwynedd and Powys district health authorities' areas currently receive fluoridated water supplies.

Can the Minister confirm, first, that when some foods are cooked in water that has been fluoridated — especially acidic foods — and possibly cooked in aluminium utensils, there is a large ingestion of aluminium into the human body? Secondly, will he confirm that there is some research to show that Alzheimer's disease is linked to the ingestion of large quantities of aluminium? If those two statements are confirmed, will the hon. Gentleman ban the use of fluoride in water in Wales?

The hypothesis that aluminium may be relevant to the cause of Alzheimer's disease is one of many under investigation. I am aware that the Medical Research Council is researching such a. hypothesis, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Government will give full consideration to any recommendations that may emerge.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the incidence of dental caries has been falling considerably in recent years and that therefore there is no excuse to force fluoridation on to those many people who do not want it?

I am aware of improvements in dental care, hut, at the same time, my hon. Friend should be aware that many parents are in favour of fluoridation.

Does the Minister agree that the reduction in dental caries on the island of Anglesey by over 50 per cent. over a period of 40 years is a glowing example of interventionist medicine?

I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman. Those findings have been borne out by recently conducted opinion research.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the majority of people in Anglesey are against the artificial fluoridation of water supplies? Is my hon. Friend further aware that a recent survey conducted by the Ynys Môn and Isle of Anglesey borough council showed conclusively that the vast majority were against such fluoridation? Is he also aware that Gwynedd health authority continues artificially to fluoridate the water of Anglesey against the wishes of the people? Is it not about time that a non-elected health authority took some cognisance of the democratic wishes of the people?

My hon. Friend is aware that fluoridation of the water in Anglesey has been a continuing policy for some time, certainly before the Bill that the Government recently piloted through the House of Commons.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from farmers organisations on the future of beef production in Wales.

I have received representations about the future of the beef industry in Wales both from farmers' organisations and from indviduals. These representations covered a very wide range of issues concerning the beef regime and the impact of measures taken by the European Commission in the dairy sector.

Will the Secretary of State urge his colleagues, who are involved in the Brussels price negotiations, to have a major devaluation of the green pound, of at least 12 per cent.? It is practically impossible at the present time—I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will agree—for Welsh beef producers to make a profit out of that enterprise. We shall have little beef enterprise left if the present position is allowed to drift.

I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree that the December reforms represented a considerable step forward in improving the beef regime in general and reducing the dependence on intervention. I certainly agree that the relative green pound discrepancies and valuations will be a matter that will be in the forefront of the negotiations that will take place in the coming weeks in Brussels.

Will my right hon. Friend take account of the fact that, while many of our farmers are alive to the problems of over-production in many types of farming, they are deeply concerned at the possibility that, having been driven out of milk production, and having moved into beef production, they may now be driven out of beef production? This seems to be a never-ending tendency and the farmers are extremely worried. I hope that my right hon. Friend will consider this problem extremely carefully.

I understand the concern of farmers about this matter and their anxiety about knock-on consequences of the various changes in the CAP support system. I believe that we made remarkable progress in December, especially with the protection of the beef premium scheme, for which we have fought so hard and consistently over recent years. Having said that, I also understand that there is a great deal of anxiety about the green pound discrepancies and, clearly, that matter will be a part of the negotiations that are now under way.

Is it not a fact that farmers are now a thoroughly dissatisfied body, as witness their recent vote of no confidence in a Conservative Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food? Farmers are asking why they should cut their production when Britain is far from self-sufficient in its production of food.

The hon. Gentleman should not try to give the impression that the Labour party would avoid substantial changes in the CAP and a reduction of the huge European surpluses. The Opposition spokesman on agriculture is much too straightforward and honest to pretend anything of the sort. It does not help if the hon. Member for Newport (Mr. Hughes) pretends at the Opposition Dispatch Box that the Labour party supports policies that would not involve a substantial reduction in the heavy overspending that is going on in Europe to produce surpluses.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many housing starts were made in (a) the public sector and (b) the private sector in Wales during 1986.

In 1986, 1,276 dwellings were started in the public sector and 7,136 in the private sector.

Is the Minister aware that that figure represents a total build in the public sector in the past seven years in Wales of only 14,000 houses, when there would have been 36,000 had the level that prevailed in 1978 continued? That means a loss of 22,000 houses in the public sector. At the same time, the Government have arranged the selling off of 50,000 council houses. Therefore, there has been a loss of council housing for rent in Wales of over 70,000 units. Is it any wonder that people in Wales are having difficulty in finding houses in which to live, because of the public sector sales policy and the lack of building that has taken place under the Government?

I am not entirely sure to which figures the hon. Gentleman is referring. I have given figures for one year, and it is worth stating that during that year the number of private sector completions rose to over 7,000 houses. That is the first time that that has been achieved for a number of years. There has been a rise in the number of houses completed in the private sector in every year for the past five years.

Does my hon. Friend accept that Cardiff is being especially innovative with the announcement last week of a partnership of the city council, two housing associations and two building societies to build 600 new homes for rent in St. Mellons? Does my hon. Friend agree that there is the opportunity for many other developers to follow Cardiff's lead?

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. There is scope for an increase in the number of housing units that are available in the private rented sector. I predict with considerable confidence that 1987–88 will mark the start of a significantly rising trend in the provision of homes to rent in Wales.

Is the Minister aware that there is a lack of conviction in his answers? May I remind the Minister that the Library research figure reveals plummeting investment in housing between 1983 and 1987 of some £61 million? As our housing problems have reached a crisis, why did the Budget neglect Wales? The contrast between the sleek south and Wales is painful. Is it not true that the Welsh economy is at the crossroads and that we needed from the Budget a cash boost for houses and cash for the Health Service? The Budget betrayed Wales.

I remind the hon. Gentleman that in the current financial year there has been a substantial boost for housing in Wales—

Downwards?

No, upwards. It has been the Government's policy to encourage renovation in both the private and public sectors, and I shall remind the hon. Gentleman of the figures. The Conservative Government have spend £333 million repairing private stock, compared with the Labour Government's spending of £57 million. We have spent £259 million repairing public sector housing stock, compared with the Labour Government's £86 million. What sort of record is that?

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what discussions he has had with local authorities about enforcement of the fire and public health regulations in houses in multi-occupation in Wales.

I have asked my officials to undertake consultations with all local authorities and other relevant bodies in Wales with a view to bringing about improved safety and other standards in houses in multiple occupation. Those consultations are now under way.

I am grateful for that answer and somewhat reassured by it. Is my hon. Friend aware that the fall in standards accompanied by the increase in the number of houses in multiple occupation suggest that it is not just the resources that are made available to local authorities that are important, but that powers of entry are important, as landlords, are not always willing to allow inspections to take place to determine whether safety precautions are adequate.

I am very much aware of my hon. Friend's point. There is indeed a far wider range of considerations, and that is why my officials are today discussing some of these problems with the Rhuddlan borough council.

Does the Minister agree that it is not belated consultations that are needed, but action? The facts are well known to those who want to hear them, and were addressed in my HMO Bill. Does the Minister realise that more than £25 million is now spent by the DHSS in Wales on supplementary benefit claimants in bed-and-breakfast accommodation? Does he realise that that expenditure and the failure to monitor the quality of the accommodation for those claimants, have come about because the Government do not wish their woefully inadequate programme for young single people to be exposed?

I am aware of the hon. Gentleman's interest in the matter. However, it is for local authorities and fire authorities to decide how they will use their existing powers. It is disappointing that only Swansea and Cardiff have so far taken advantage of the registration schemes available to them.

Is the Minister aware of the serious fire in Merthyr Tydfil only yesterday, in a property owned by a Mr. Elwyn Morgan? Eleven people were taken to hospital and four are still being detained. Is he further aware that the property had no valid planning permission and that Merthyr borough council, supported by the Welsh Office, had been trying to enforce orders for the best part of 15 months? Will the Minister investigate the particular circumstances of the fire? Does it not prove the need for better regulations and their more effective enforcement?

I join the hon. Gentleman in expressing sympathy for those injured in the fire. The Welsh Office has supported the local authority in refusing planning permission for this house to be used for multiple occupation. The local authority had issued a statutory enforcement notice giving the landlord two months to stop using the house for that purpose. It is unfortunate that the accident occurred during that two-month period.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make it his policy not to sell Swndwr farm, Northop, to British Coal for opencast mining; and if he will make a statement.

No. My right hon. Friend's general policy is to dispose of land surplus to highway requirements on the open market, subject to the advice of the district valuer. No land at Swndwr farm is yet available for disposal.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the sale of any part of Swndwr land to British Coal would prejudice my right hon. Friend's position in relation to British Coal's forthcoming planning application for opencast coal extraction at Pont Einion? Will he assure the House that when it has been established what part of Swndwr farm is surplus to highway requirements, that surplus land will not be sold to British Coal?

I cannot give my hon. Friend that assurance. The Department is not negotiating the sale of any part of Swndwr farm to British Coal, so his request is superfluous.

Does the Minister recall that, some time ago, we accused the Secretary of State of allowing opencast mining to take place anywhere other than in Pembroke? In view of the question asked by the hon. Member for Delyn (Mr. Raffan), I wonder whether Delyn is also to be in the exclusion zone, and whether the hon. Gentleman is seeking another election bribe.

I do not think that that question is worthy of answer. My hon. Friend's question related specifically to Swndwr farm near Northop.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has any plans to increase the amount of public funds provided through his Department or its agencies to Anglesey; and if he will make a statement.

The provision of total expenditure within my responsibility in 1987–88 represents an increase of 10 per cent. comparable provision for 1986–87. Anglesey will benefit from this along with the rest of Wales.

I welcome my right hon. Friend's statement. Is he aware that there are a number of projects on Anglesey which are helping its regeneration and which are pump-primed by Welsh Office cash, such as the scheme at Llanfairpwll station and the generation of a fishing industry in Holyhead? How does this massive injection of Welsh Office cash into my constituency compare with the amounts available under the last Labour Administration?

In general terms, the last Labour Administration cut capital expenditure hard, having got into a considerable mess, and having been directed to do so by the IMF. Since then there has been strong growth in the economy. We are increasing public expenditure at the same time as reducing taxation and borrowing. My hon. Friend is right. Holyhead has benefited particularly. There has also been a significant increase in spending on tourism on the island. My hon. Friend has rightly drawn attention to the rural package which has helped Pringle to produce its very exciting scheme at Llanfair PG.

I remind the right hon. Gentleman that every fourth man in Holyhead is jobless, that nearly 5,000 people on the island are out of work and that the county has the worst unemployment record in Wales—all those statistics being a consequence of his policies. Why did the right hon. Gentleman accept in Cabinet a Budget that denies Wales a strategy for jobs? The Budget did nothing for Wales. Wales is forgotten by the right hon. Gentleman in this instance. We need a stronger regional policy, including discriminatory measures favouring Wales and the regions. Why did the Budget not help Wales?

The hon. Gentleman is asking a question about the Budget and Wales, and particularly Anglesey. I cannot help noticing that unemployment in Holyhead fell by 3 per cent. in the 12 months until February, which is a larger fall than in almost any travel-to-work area in the whole of the United Kingdom.

Why is the Secretary of State so coy about giving figures? Will he now come clean and admit that his Department's expenditure in the last financial year was, in real terms, 34 per cent. lower than it was 10 years before? Does that not reflect what the Government have done to Anglesey?

I notice that the hon. Gentleman is now changing direction and using a point of expenditure before the IMF cuts. In recent years, as a result of economic growth, we have increased public expenditure substantially. There has been a 10 per cent. increase in public expenditure in Wales, while inflation has been about 4·5 per cent. That is the result of the economic policies which are producing extra expenditure, reduced taxes, lower unemployment and lower interest rates.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what information he has about the progress to date of the job training scheme in the Welsh pilot area; and if he will make a statement.

Progress with the pilot in Neath and Port Talbot, which has provided places for over 300 entrants, has shown that the job training scheme offers unemployed people valuable training and work experience and the opportunity of a worthwhile vocational qualification.

I hope the Minister is not suggesting that the scheme is a success. If he is, can he explain why only 50 per cent. of the available places have been taken up and 50 per cent. of the people who have accepted a vacancy are over 25, when the scheme is intended for those under 25? Can he explain why only 18 per cent. of the vacancies have been taken up by women, when 40 per cent. of those who are unemployed and are eligible to be entrants are women?

The hon. Gentleman has got his facts wrong. It is intended to extend the scheme nationwide as from the end of this month. There will he some 6,020 places available in Wales for this scheme by the autumn of 1987. Therefore, all the hon. Gentleman's comments on the scheme are limited to the pilot in Neath and Port Talbot. My overall impression of the pilot is that it has been successful. Because of that success, it is being extended nationwide.

While I appreciate the value of the training carried out in the Port Talbot centre, may I ask the Minister to say where — these people having completed their training — are the jobs in Neath and Port Talbot for them to go to?

Obviously the 18 to 25-year-olds at whom this scheme is particularly directed will be considerably better equipped for jobs. The evidence is that people are going into jobs after training.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what has been the response within the Principality to the most recently announced outgoers scheme for the dairy farming industry; and if he will make a statement.

The first phase of the milk community outgoers scheme, which sought to buy up 2 per cent. of our national reference quantity to offset the 2 per cent. reduction in quotas, which is due to take effect on 1 April 1987, closed in 15 February 1987. Twenty-eight applications were received from producers in Wales, 12 of which were subsequently withdrawn, giving a total litreage offered under the scheme of 1·7 million litres.

Does the Minister agree that, with an outgoers scheme, which is really a redundancy payment scheme, it would be much better to pay three or four years' payments immediately an outgoer leaves dairy farming? He would then have much more cash to develop some alternative diversification.

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we shall now have to introduce across-the-board compulsory reductions in quotas to producers in England and Wales under the scheme that has been agreed by the European Community. He will also be aware that compensation from EC funds has been increased from 18·3 to 27·5 per litre for seven years under the outgoers scheme, which is designed to effect permanent cuts. We must now wait to see how such new arrangements, which have been agreed by the Commission, operate.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many dairy producers in my constituency are trying to eke out a living on a net income of £3,000 or less? Does he not consider that there needs to be positive discrimination in favour of the smaller farmer to ensure that the rural life of Wales and Cefn Gwlad is not inhibited? Does he accept that the £90 dairy inspection charge was just about the last straw that broke the dairy cow's back for many of my constituents?

I happen to believe that the campaign against the charge has been rather exaggerated. I do not believe that the impact of about 50p a cow will break any backs. I agree that the smaller producer is important. That is one of the reasons why we made special arrangements, when we introduced the quota scheme, to bring smaller producers up to a minimum level. I am sure that the increased compensation arrangements under the outgoers scheme will also be welcomed by such producers.

Will the Secretary of State inform the House why the many dairy farmers who have left the industry have turned their backs on the outgoers scheme during the past two years?

Clearly, those who did not take up the outgoers schemes did not believe that it would be good value for money and made a judgment on the available alternatives. Of course, sale and leasing arrangements have also been taken into account. We are now moving into a new situation with a compulsory reduction in quotas, and the compensation arrangements will therefore be quite different in the period ahead.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has carried out a study of the economic impact on South Wales if the Severn barrage were constructed.

A study of the potential regional effects of a Severn barrage is being undertaken as part of the £4·2 million programme of advanced investigations and site studies announced last July by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy.

I am sure that all hon. Members are pleased to hear that news. I believe that the House will agree with me that the sooner the studies are completed and the barrage is built, the better. Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a threat to an economic and social asset in Wales if the barrage and the seven other smaller barrages on estuaries and rivers are built? That threat relates to fishing. What provision has my right hon. Friend made for migratory fish stocks to be catered for if the Severn barrage and the other smaller barrages for electricity generation are constructed?

It is quite a good idea to carry out the studies before we decide whether the the barrage should be built. Certainly, the studies will address important conservation matters, including fish stocks. In much smaller schemes elsewhere in Wales we have made provision for salmon passes. They can sometimes be a matter of controversy, as we discovered in north Wales, where such a scheme has been criticised on environmental grounds. Therefore, the proper way to proceed is through the inquiries that my right hon. Friend has launched.

Is my right hon. Friend able to tell me what the financial impact on the barrage would be if a road were to be built over it?

Clearly that is one of the possibilities, but the consideration of this proposition is at a very preliminary stage, and we had better decide whether to go ahead with the barrage before we decide whether there is to be a road on it. As my hon. Friend is fully aware, we are committed to proceeding with the work on a second Severn crossing, irrespective of any decision about a barrage.

Does the Secretary of State acknowledge that not only fish stocks but other wild life are likely to be threatened by the proposed barrage? Will he confirm that his Department is aware that the Severn estuary is a site of international importance for nature conservation, and will he give a guarantee that any proposed development of the barrage will at least ensure that environmental considerations are given full weight?

I am aware of the facts to which the hon. Gentleman refers, and I have no doubt that the studies that I have mentioned will take those facts very fully into account.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, how much was spent in the past year by the commissioners on historic buildings under their control; what were the comparable figures 10 years ago; if he will give details of this expenditure; and if he will make a statement.

I have been asked to reply.

The commissioners have a large number of listed historic buildings under their control but do not keep a separate record of expenditure for this category. I regret that to calculate the information which my hon. Friend requires would cause disproportionate expense.

May I say how splendid it is to see my right hon. and learned Friend acting in this important capacity? May I ask him whether the Church Commissioners have any plans to charge for entry to cathedrals—as recommended by the Select Committee on the Environment—during certain periods of the day, provided that parts of the cathedrals are always left for prayer? If so, will there be a standard charge for all cathedrals, or will some be more expensive than others?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind remarks. I am always grateful for anything that is passed my way.

The Church Commissioners have no responsibility for the upkeep of cathedrals or, indeed, for the upkeep of churches.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, if he will make a statement on the effect of value added tax on repairs on those buildings for whose upkeep the commissioners have responsibility.

I have been asked to reply.

In 1986 the commissioners paid over £500,000 in respect of VAT arising from the repair of buildings.

As the Church of England is a major owner of listed buildings, as instanced by the fact that nearly half the grade I listed buildings are Church of England churches, and as it is generally accepted that the zero rating of VAT on building repairs to such buildings would provide the greatest boost to conservation, would my right hon. and learned Friend, as a commissioner, be prepared to encourage the other commissioners to lead a campaign in Europe to get the European Community rules changed so that the other major owners of buildings, the Government, bring forward proposals to this House to zero rate for VAT purposes the repairs to listed buildings?

All hon. Members will have sympathy with my hon. Friend's objective. Versatile though I am, I do not think that I will undertake to encourage the commissioners, but I will undertake to see to it that they take careful note of my hon. Friend's point.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the commissioners and others, particularly the Historic Churches Preservation Trust, have repeatedly lobbied the Chancellor to reduce or eliminate VAT on such buildings? Will he talk to his colleagues in the Government — and how glad we are to see that he is answering this particular question today — and urge them to make this change?

I am grateful for what my hon. Friend has said. I certainly undertake to draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to my hon. Friend's point.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, though many evils flow from Brussels, there is no responsibility on Brussels for the imposition of VAT on repairs to buildings of this kind? Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that it would be open to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to include in this year's Finance Bill a measure giving relief from VAT for repairs on this kind?

I understand that there are difficulties in introducing a new zero rate. That is a matter to which the Select Committee gave its attention in its admirable report. I shall draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to all points of this nature.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what measures the Church Commissioners propose to take to enable the payment of compensation to those clergymen who have announced their intention to leave the Church of England once the legislation admitting women to the ordained Ministry has been passed.

I have been asked to reply.

The commissioners have no jurisdiction to make proposals in a matter of this kind. It would be for the General Synod to decide, in the first instance, the form of any financial provision.

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for his answer, realising that you, Mr. Speaker, could have answered it as well. My right hon. and learned Friend, who is a Church Commissioner, will know that 2,000 Anglican clergy might leave the Church of England if women are ordained. The report by the House of Bishops on the ordination of women to the priesthood makes it clear that it wants unity rather division. The assessment so far undertaken in the study shows that a number of clergy would lose office and promotion. There would certainly be a starvation of promotion for those opposed to the ordination of women—

Order. This is not a debate.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend prepare the costings for that move, recognising that 1991 is not far away?

I know — indeed the whole House knows — that my hon. Friend takes a close interest in this matter, as in so many others.

Whereas I recognise the importance of financial provision in the event that women were able to be ordained as priests, that is perhaps not fundamental to what is an extremely difficult issue. It is not a matter upon which the commissioners have jurisdiction to initiate proposals.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that many of the 2,000 priests who are threatening to leave the Church are doing so under the assumption that, should they leave, they would take a substantial part of the historic resources of the Church of England with them? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman advise us that if such a division were contemplated, legislation would have to be passed by the House to approve it. Will he offer his own opinion on the chances of getting such legislation through the House?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is right about legislation. To go any further into this issue on what is necessarily an ephemeral outing on my part would be unwise.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that we are glad to see him on that outing today? I hope that he makes the best of it. Is he aware that, as has been pointed out already, the Synod does not have the power to ordain women as priests? That will have to be done by this House, and that step must never be taken for granted.

No one speaks with greater personal knowledge of these matters than my hon. Friend, who is, of course, a member for the General Synod. He will recall that in February the General Synod passed a resolution requiring the standing committee to bring forward two Measures for consideration.

What my hon. Friend says about the outcome is constitutionally correct. It has to be passed by the necessary majorities in all three Houses of the Synod and then come to this House.

I also congratulate the right hon. and learned Gentleman on his promotion, which, no doubt, is a welcome relief from his various other duties. Will he give a guarantee that any letter that he writes on this sensitive subject will not be leaked, wholly or partly?

The first of the hon. Gentleman's observations was more welcome than the second.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend give a firm indication that any legislation along the lines that he has discussed will have to be discussed pretty carefully with the Law Officers?

Voluminous though our jurisdiction is, I am not sure whether it extends to that. Naturally, as we are both commissioners, we shall take a careful interest in this matter.

asked the Secretay of State for Wales what action he has taken to overcome the lack of teachers in shortage subjects; and if he will make a statement.

The Government have introduced various measures to increase the supply of teachers in the shortage subjects. These include a new bursary scheme to attract graduates to teacher training courses, increased expenditure on course development, increased grant-aid for in-service training, tax concessions for firms willing to second employees to schools and colleges and the establishment of the teaching as a career unit.

I am pleased to hear my hon. Friend's answer. However, are there any signs yet that the measures he describes are proving successful?

I am pleased to tell my hon. Friend that recruitment to postgraduate teacher training courses in Wales in the shortage subjects — mathematics, physics, craft design and technology — in 1986 showed a significant increase as compared with the previous year. I am sure that he will agree that that is encouraging and is due largely, I am sure, to the new bursary scheme of £1,200 per annum which the Government have introduced to attract graduates to teacher training courses in those subjects.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what recent representations he has received concerning the requirement that financial assistance provided to Opposition parties should be expended solely in support of the parliamentary business of those parties; and if he will make a statement.

As I told my hon. Friend in answer to his question on 2 March, each Opposition party qualifying for financial assistance has to certify that any reimbursement claimed is in respect of expenses incurred exclusively in relation to that party's parliamentary business.

Is my right hon. Friend able to tell the House when the next review will be undertaken? When that review is undertaken, will the assessment be made of how the £630,000 which was allocated in 1986 is spent? Will it be an undertaking that the assistance is given to a particular party for carrying out its "parliamentary work here at Westminster," as Lord Glenamara said on 20 March 1975, or for "activities at Westminster," as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House said on 23 January 1985?

As I have already said to the House, I thought that we were now sufficiently close to a general election to ensure that the next review would be in the next Parliament. The point raised by my hon. Friend about the whole question of monitoring spending is one that could be considered at the time of the review and, of course, it would be done in respect of all political parties.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not recall that when his party was in opposition those sums were disbursed largely to the Conservative research department? Could it be the temporary absence of those funds that has led that organisation to become so slipshod and inaccurate in its work; such as, for example not knowing that during the Lib-Lab pact inflation went down from 20 to 7 per cent. and that Labour's nationalisation measures were stopped? Is he looking forward to the return of those funds to his party?

The hon. Gentleman has raised a facile point. I assure him that if we are to quarry for the ineptitudes of research activities on behalf of the respective parties, the Liberal aspect of the Liberal-Social Democratic alliance would come out top of the league.

I shall now turn to the more serious point, which is what I am sure the hon. Gentleman intended. I thank him for pointing out the great importance of research in sustaining a party in opposition. That was never more evident than now.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what representations he has received about progress with the cleaning and restoring of the external stonework of the Palace of Westminster; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what representations he has received about progress with the cleaning and restoring of the external stonework of the Palace of Westminster; and if he will make a statement.

I have not received any recent representations on this topic, but I am aware of a general wish among hon. Members that the stone restoration work should be completed as soon as possible.

Will my right hon. Friend accept the wide admiration of the House and the country for the beauty of the parliamentary building as it is revealed by the restoration, and will he accept from me and many people that it would be extremely sad if the Victoria Tower was not fully restored, as it has been rumoured it may not be? Would it not be tragic if it stuck out like an elegant sore thumb?

I agree with my hon. Friend. The restoration work that has been undertaken for the Palace of Westminster has had admirable consequences and I hope that in due course the Victoria Tower can be similarly restored. My hon. Friend will understand that I am in no position to say when that work will be undertaken.

While commending the work that has been done, which is surely an example of how Parliament and the Government should lead the country in the proper care of architectural conservation, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether there are any plans to try to improve some of the internal courtyards of the Palace, which are very untidy and a disgrace to the splendid architectural heritage that has been passed on to us?

I cannot answer that specific point without notice. However, if my hon. Friend would like to get in touch with me, I will ensure that he receives an answer.

I wonder whether my right hon. Friend would see to it that a gargoyle is constructed of the Boy David, which apparently is the new title of the leader of the Liberal party, as described by the leader of the Social Democratic party.

I thought that that description was so striking that it could stand on its own.

Would my right hon. Friend pass on the thanks of the House to all those responsible for what is, by any standards, superb work?

I am most happy to undertake that request.

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will take steps to secure the withdrawal of curried Cornish pasties from the cafeterias of the House; and if he will make a statement.

I have been asked to reply.

I unreservedly apologise to my hon. Friend for the human error that occurred when his delectable cornish pasty, whose name and fame is worldwide, was attributed to another of lesser renown; and the Catering Sub-Committee, through the General Manager, has taken immediate corrective action.

Does my hon. Friend realise that I am completely disarmed by that helpful reply? Does he also appreciate that if such action had not been taken his own very fine reputation as the best Chairman of the Catering Sub-Committee that the House has ever seen might well have been in jeopardy? While on the subject of pasties, may I go a little further? Does he realise that this insult against the culinary traditions of Cornwall has been further intensified by the fact that a more conventional type of pasty, sold as a Cornish pasty in the House, has a giveaway tag on its cellophane wrapper which reads "Made in Kent"? Will he, therefore, after these exchanges, taste a real genuine Cornish pasty that has been kindly made for him by a constituent of mine?

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend, who is a great defender of Cornish traditions. I think that he may be able to help me by sending me a note to tell me the sort of name that he would give to this Cornish patsie—I am sorry, pasty.

May I invite my hon Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Harris) to send my hon. Friend the Chairman of the Catering Sub-Committee an authentic Cornish recipe, if he could do so without engendering further controversy?

That is a most admirable suggestion.

In order to make amends to the people of Cornwall, and in recognition of the fact that they have just elected another Liberal hon. Member to this honourable House, will my hon. Friend consider the introduction to the menus of this House of that very fishy dish Stargazy Pie?

I should be very happy to give that matter careful consideration. However, I am afraid that pasties or patsies are non-political.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what information he has as to the extent of the teaching of peace studies in Wales and as to the local education authorities involved; and if he will make a statement.

I am not aware of any Welsh local education authority promoting peace studies as a distinct item in the curriculum.

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for that answer. However, should peace studies be introduced in our schools, would he provide the finances for that subject?

The financing of education is a matter for local education authorities. However, I would feel obliged to stress that any attempt to smuggle in politically biased teaching would breach the requirements of the Education (No. 2) Act 1986. Local education authorities, governing bodies and head teachers are required by that Act to forbid the promotion of partisan political views in the teaching of any subject in the school.

Does the Minister accept that implicit in this question is the suggestion that there should be greater centralisation of curricula — something that is causing considerable concern in Wales — and will he give an undertaking that if the responsibility for financing these or any other studies in schools is a matter for local authorities, curricula should remain a matter for local decision?

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. There has been considerable discussion of the curriculum, and the general opinion among teachers, parents and all concerned with the education of children is that there should be more central direction of the curriculum than there is now.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many jobs have been gained in Wales by those attending job clubs since the scheme began.

Since August 1985, 1,355 people in Wales have attended a job club, and 828 — or 62 per cent.—have obtained employment as a result.

In view of that success, what plans does my hon. Friend have to extend job clubs throughout Wales?

My hon. Friend knows that there are 24 job clubs in Wales, and we hope to extend the total to 60 by the end of this month. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has visited a job club in Haverfordwest and I have visited one on. Deeside. and there is no doubt that they do an