To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will consider designating as trunk roads those county council roads which are essential for industrial or tourist development.

Motorways and trunk roads are designated because of their importance for long-distance through traffic. It would not be appropriate to add to the network on the grounds suggested.

In view of Clwyd county council's diligence in providing proper access roads to important industrial developments such as Kinmell park estate and vital tourist areas such as Rhyl and Prestatyn, will my hon. Friend reconsider whether there should be an extension of the powers of the Welsh Office, which, in this respect, have been satisfactorily carried out?

I understand that Clwyd county council has plans to improve the A525 between the A55 and Rhyl and Prestatyn. The priority that it gives to the scheme is a matter for the council. We recently wrote to the local authority agreeing to the provision of white on brown tourism signs at the A55-A525 junction. A meeting will be held shortly to finalise the wording and symbols to be used.

Will the Minister reconsider the situation vis-a-vis the A44, which we in mid-Wales would like to see designated as a trunk road? I understand that one of the formulae applied involves the volume of traffic, which inevitably is light. None the less, it is a very important link road. Will the Welsh Office negotiate with the Secretary of State for Transport on that issue?

We have examined the argument for trunking the A44 between Rhayader and the English border. The hon. Gentleman is quite right about this being related to the volume of traffic. The adjoining length of road in England is not trunked. That is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport.

Will my hon. Friend reconsider the reply that he gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer)? To realise the full potential of the A55 and the Government's massive investment of £160 million in dualling it, it is essential that link roads are constructed between the expressway and industrial estates such as the Delyn enterprise zone and Greenfield business park. Contrary to what the Minister has said, Clwyd county council shows no sign of developing such a link road strategy. Will my hon. Friend take a leaf out of the book of the previous Secretary of State for Wales, who was prepared to consider designating short link roads as trunk roads?

I agree that those roads are important in order to derive the best possible benefit from trunk roads such as the A55. However, I must stress once again that the local highway authority has responsibility for those roads.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what measures he will be taking to help Welsh local authorities in defraying the administrative costs of implementing the community charge.

The Government have made it clear that additional resources will be made available to help local authorities with the extra capital and revenue costs of setting up the new system. We are discussing those matters with the associations.

Is the Minister aware that his Conservative colleague, the chairman of the Association of District Councils in Britain as a whole, recently visited Cardiff and told Welsh local authorities that the cost of implementing the poll tax would be £10 million and that it would cost £17 million to run? That is far in excess of the amount that the Government originally intended. Does he agree that that is yet another example of an unnecessary burden on the Welsh people?

We do not have to go to an English Conservative, because the Committee of Welsh District Councils is looking into the matter, although we do not expect to have its estimates until next month. The Government have commissioned a firm of management consultants to survey a sample of local authorities in England and Wales to report on the cost of implementation and operation to assist us in our considerations. That report is due soon.

Will my hon. Friend make every effort to arrange for the tightest controls lest local councils use the community charge as an excuse for a spending spree? Surely that much simpler and fairer tax will involve less cost per person because it will not involve the complex calculations for which the anachronistic formula for rates presently calls.

My hon. Friend is right. Costs will be incurred in setting up the system, but once it is running it will not be more expensive than the present one.

The Minister says that he does not need an English Conservative to make his calculations. It is notable that in Newport, East the Tory party turned to English Conservatives to ride their candidates twice in constituency elections. It is one of those Conservatives who has given us these figures.

Can the Minister tell the House which local authorities will take part in the Welsh estimate? Does he realise that there will be an enormous increase in the burden of work? It has been estimated that in one county council the number of accounts will increase from 140,000 to 375,000, that the number paying by instalments will increase ninefold, that the number of distress warrants will increase tenfold, and that the number of payments will increase from 500,000 to 3·5 million. Is it not time for Welsh Office Ministers to protect Wales from this Tory tax, which is unfair and unnecessary?

The hon. Gentleman is yet again using guesstimates in an attempt to scare people away from what will be a thoroughly fair and easily understood tax. The Opposition are clearly afraid of it because it will show up the wasteful expenditure for which so many members of the Labour party are guilty in local government.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received pressing for a Welsh rivers authority; and if he will make a statement.

The Government's consultation paper proposing a National Rivers Authority was published in July 1987. Nine of the 51 responses received in Wales suggested a separate authority for Wales.

Given that the Secretary of State is a party to the appointment of Lord Crickhowell as chairman of the National Rivers Authority, I am surprised that he did not answer my question. Nevertheless, how can the public have confidence in the integrity and independence of Lord Crickhowell, who is a paid representative of the multinational mining corporation Rio-Tinto-Zinc, in his capacity of chairman of the National Rivers Authority? Given also that the incidence of river pollution is now at a record level of 2,500 cases annually, only one in 28 of which results in prosecution, is not Lord Crickhowell just a Tory ex-politician—a Tory placeman—appointed to preside over the lowering of water quality standards in Wales?

Lowering standards have been well illustrated by the hon. Gentleman's approach this afternoon. I thought that his was a disgraceful contribution.

My noble Friend Lord Crickhowell has made a notable and extremely beneficent contribution to Welsh affairs. Opposition Members should welcome the fact that a person in his position, with his love and knowledge of Wales, is there to protect our interests.

Is it not a fact that legislation governing the purity of water is still in force and has in no way been altered? Is it not a fact also that where there has been an increase in pollution, it is largely due to new treatments of agricultural land, and that a major step is now being taken to improve matters in that respect?

As is so often the case, my hon. Friend is absolutely right.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on his Valleys initiative.

I have had the benefit of consultations with the local authorities, the health authorities, housing associations, enterprise agencies, the Wales Tourist Board, a number of voluntary organisations, the CBI, the TUC, and a range of commercial and industrial firms. A range of constructive and positive proposals have been made, all of which are being fully assessed and considered, I will announce a positive plan of action when those considerations have been completed.

When does the Secretary of State hope to announce that initiative, which has been under consideration for some time? Can he give an assurance that there will be new money on the table—not money recycled from elsewhere in the Welsh Office budget—for the initiative, which I welcome?

I have always stated that I will make an announcement as soon as the consultation is complete and I have reached conclusions. The programme will affect the Valleys for some years to come, and it is important that the document is carefully constructed. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman will be disappointed with the way in which public expenditure is used to benefit the Valleys.

We hope that the Secretary of State will look fully at all the propositions put to him from the Valley towns, and if he takes a bit longer to consider all the representations, none of us can complain. Will he, however, give us an absolute assurance that when he publishes the scheme he will also publish all the financial details, comparing how much is to be spent in the next three or four years in detail with what has been spent over recent years and also with what we have lost in regional aid over that period—which we trust will be refunded in the next two or three years?

I should be delighted to publish comparisons—particularly in most of the spheres that affect the Valleys—with the record of the Labour Government of which the right hon. Gentleman was a member.

We have been reading carefully the book that the right hon. Gentleman published recently and noting the kind of partnership that he envisages between the public sector and private capital. What amount of commercial capital does he expect to participate in the Valleys initiative? Is he hopeful that the area will be scheduled for an integrated operations programme for the European Community, which will add substantially to the funds made available?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, plans connected with the European Commission are a matter for discussion and detailed negotiation.

As for our relationship with the private sector, I have engaged in many consultations because a range of industries are potential investors in the Valleys in major commercial enterprises and capital investment. The results of those negotiations have been very heartwarming.

Will the Secretary of State give us an assurance that at least his initiative will include sufficient money to cover the serious under-funding of the health services in our Valley communities, and to deal with the backlog of applications for repair and improvement grants caused by the fact that a large number of individual home owners have been waiting for up to four years for such grants?

The Health Service will always face great demands. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the amount now being spent on the Health Service is a substantial improvement, by any comparison, on the amount being spent some years ago. Similarly, a Government who have spent more in one year than the previous Labour Government spent in five years are likely to have a good record on house improvements.

Can we at least have some answers from the Secretary of State? Is it not time to end the cruelties, or is it just dither on the right hon. Gentleman's part? Does he realise that he has trailed this so often and for so long that it is in danger of becoming a rather sad parliamentary joke? Will he confirm that the article in the Western Mail on 17 March was based on authorised Welsh Office briefing? If not, how does he account for the detailed quotations in it? If it was, does he stand by the figure of £900 million that it quoted?

Finally—this is an important point—when it is eventually announced—f it is—may we have a guarantee that it will be announced first in this Chamber?

I shall certainly make an announcement in the Chamber, although I shall also be simultaneously making announcements in the Valleys. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that.

The only publicity of any scale that has built up about the Valleys initiative is the constant neurosis of the right hon. Gentleman, who mentions it in almost every speech. I am sure that he will be delighted if it is a programme of action with substantial results. We look forward to seeing his smiling face rejoicing at such a programme.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from Clwyd county council on proposed changes in the Clwyd structure plan; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend has received no such representations.

When the Secretary of State receives representations, will he take into account the needs of the west and south of Clwyd? I am afraid that the county council is not taking any account of the needs of the Vale of Clwyd in its structure plan, and is likely to create a dormitory area for Chester and Deeside in the west of the county.

When the structure plan alterations are finally submitted to my right hon. Friend, careful note will be taken of all representations.

Will my hon. Friend also take note of the representations that he will receive from north-east Wales concerning its place in the Clwyd structure plan and the complete lack of any action by Clwyd county council to help the industrial development of that part of Clwyd? It is causing great concern in Delwyn borough council and also in the borough council in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer). We need roads, as was mentioned earlier today. It is not good enough for the Welsh Office to abdicate its responsibilities and transfer them to the county. The Welsh Office is doing nothing.

My hon. Friend's support for his constituents and for the people of Clwyd is very well known, and he has well exemplified it this afternoon.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many council houses and flats have been sold to tenants in Wales since May 1979 under (a) the right to buy and (b) voluntary provisions.

55,246 council houses and flats have been sold to tenants in Wales under the right to buy. The equivalent figure for voluntary sales is 5,082.

Does my hon. Friend agree that this is a great contribution to the liberation of the working man? What hope does he have that this liberation will be extended to those who live in hard-to-sell flats?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is the greatest distribution of capital to working people that any hon. Member could have imagined. It was unimaginable by the Labour party, which purports to represent working people. My hon. Friend will be aware of the extra discount for flats that has recently been made available to encourage such sales.

We note with interest the Minister's answer, but hon. Members with Welsh constituencies will want to know how many people in Wales were registered as homeless in 1979, compared with the present figure. When will the receipts from the sales of council houses in Wales be applied to resolving the problem of homelessness amongst our people?

The number of registered homeless in 1979 was 4,676. In 1987 the number was 5,300. As I think the hon. Gentleman will agree, that does not show great movement.

As the great majority of those who were interested in buying their council houses under the previous scheme have done so, resulting in immense benefits for them, is the time not coming for another great leap forward in the extension of home ownership?

I think that my hon. Friend may not have noticed the additional impetus of the higher discount that has recently been allowed. Nevertheless, he is quite right. We are looking at further ways of spreading home ownership.

Is the Minister aware that one of the causes of tension in rural Wales, in areas such as Gwynedd, is the inability of local people to compete on the open market to buy houses and the reduction in the stock of council houses for letting to them? In these circumstances, will he consider whether it is possible to make a much greater financial allocation that would allow district councils to buy houses from the private sector to let to those who cannot afford to buy them? Will he also look at the possibility of giving to those who want to buy council houses, but who are uncertain as to their job prospects in areas of high unemployment, some guarantee that they will be able to revert to renting accommodation from the local council if they have to foreclose on their mortgages?

I take note of the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's suggestion. On the first part of his question, he may be interested to know that we shall be introducing such a measure in the current Housing Bill, which I think he will find helpful.

When will the Government recognise that millions of pounds are lying dormant from the sale of council properties? Is it not a fact that under this Government public expenditure on housing has shown a marked decline compared with that under the previous Labour Government? What about our Valley communities, where thousands of houses are now just about beyond repair? Is it not a fact that homelessness is at record levels in Wales? Mortgage repossessions are seven times higher now than they were in 1979. The hon. Member for Warrington, South (Mr. Butler) represents an English constituency, so perhaps he is not too conversant with our problems in Wales. Is it not time that the Government realised that Welsh housing has reached crisis point?

It is astonishing that the hon. Gentleman should talk about the decline of housing in Wales when the Labour party saw that decline but did not lift a finger to do anything about it. I shall remind him of the figures. During the time that the Labour Government were in office expenditure on private housing renovation was £54 million a year. Under this Government it is £414 million. Expenditure on public housing renovation under the Labour Government was £86 million a year. Under this Government it is £339 million a year. We have saved the housing stock, including houses owned in many cases by those who elect Opposition Members.

The hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that Cynon valley council has just produced its housing strategy. In paragraph 29 it encapsulates its new policy, and the first point that it makes is that:

"New Council houses be built only in exceptional circumstances."

That is the change.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his policy on briefing of outside organisations by officials of his Department.

The response to requests for outside briefing depends upon the nature of the briefing required. The main objective is to provided factual background and to preserve the neutrality of the Civil Service.

Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the report—which no doubt is accurate—in the Western Mail of 28 April, in which Mr. John Davies, the under-secretary at the Welsh Office, is purported to have told a farming conference, regarding sheep quotas, "I for one will fight the proposal tooth and nail."? Is that not a gross violation of the political neutrality about which the Minister has spoken and without which the Civil Service cannot properly function? Will he therefore ensure that Mr. Davies understands that he is being undesirably partisan and, if the Government make as abrupt an about face on sheep as they did on milk quotas, undesirably foolish as well?

I shall certainly look at the quotation mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. The intention of Mr. Davies was to give factual briefing. If he made a remark of that nature, obviously I shall have words with him.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that in his latest bout of petulance, unlike other Ministers and shadows, he has instructed his private office to give no replies to any questions from me, except in answer to parliamentary questions or to letters? In view of that, will he given an assurance that in future he will answer the parliamentary questions that are asked, not those that he wished had been asked, and that he will answer them on time, instead of giving holding answers, which happens all too often, even when the eventual substantive belated reply is the single word "No"?

In the many years in which I have had the privilege of having numerous shadows, including the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) and others, I have not previously had the experience of the shadow's researchers telephoning staff in my private office and using quotes from civil servants in future political remarks. As a result, I have said that I would prefer to see the replies to the right hon. Gentleman. That will continue. I shall decide on the replies to parliamentary questions. I realise that quite often the replies are not liked by the right hon. Gentleman.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what new initiatives he is planning to reduce hospital waiting lists in (a) Gwent and (b) Wales.

I am pleased to announce that the £1 million of waiting list funding in 1987–88 was associated with additional throughput of some 2,900 in-patients and day cases and 6,600 out-patients on the lists concerned. I congratulate district health authorities on that achievement. In view of that success, I am making available a further £1 million in the current financial year. District health authorities, including Gwent, have now submitted their waiting list action plans and officials of the National Health Service directorate will be monitoring progress towards their implementation.

The whole House will be glad to know that there was a small general improvement in waiting lists throughout Wales, but the increase was small and will take decades to work through. I remind the Minister of his promise less than a year ago that by now no patient would have to wait longer than a month for an urgent operation or longer than a year for a non-urgent operation. We welcome the Minister's announcement, but remind him that instead of there being no patients waiting, as he promised, 8,940 non-urgent cases are still waiting more than a year, and the number of urgent cases has increased, in spite of the £1 million, to 2,360. Does he agree that the great mountain of pain, suffering, anxiety and misery of the 121,000 on the waiting lists deserves greater effort, and not the same again?

The hon. Gentleman does not give those who work in the Health Service the credit that he might give them. The number of in-patients treated in Wales has risen by 27 per cent. under this Government, and the number treated in Gwent has risen by 33 per cent. since we came to power. The increase in the number of people treated represents satisfied patients who were not being treated before.

So that we might have the full picture of Health Service expenditure, can my hon. Friend give us comparative figures showing what was spent on the Health Service in Wales in 1979 and what is being spent this year?

I must have those figures somewhere. About £394 million was being spent when we came to power. The figure is more than £1·2 billion now.

While the Minister is thinking about those figures, perhaps he might like to reflect on the effect on hospital waiting lists of closures and the rundown of facilities by Gwynedd health authority and his Department. I appreciate that the Minister is unable to comment on the matter, but is he aware that I represented the Minister of State at the demonstration at Llandudno last Saturday, where hundreds of people made their views clear? Will he assure us that he will take account of public opinion in Gwynedd before he comes to any decision?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that all representations, whether from him, his friends or the constituents of my hon. Friend the Minister of State, will be taken great notice of.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will seek to give the earliest possible decision on South Glamorgan county council's proposed new design for the Butetown link road; and if he will provide the necessary capital allocation for a start to be made as soon as possible, and in any event no later than April 1989.

Our officials received details of the alternative scheme from South Glamorgan on 5 April. Further discussions are taking place with the county council, and I hope to be in a position to give a decision before transport supplementary grant bids for 1989–90 are invited in July.

I am grateful to the Minister for that reassurance. Will he assure us that his officials will make every effort to overcome any problems that arise with the timetable? Will he bear in mind the fact that, on the tail of the need to complete access, are longer-term requirements for the improvement of the eastern access to the Cardiff Bay and south Cardiff Bay area?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments. We shall, of course, do our upmost to keep to this fairly tight schedule. I realise the importance of the Butetown link road in connection with the Grangetown link, the central link and the Cogan spur to Penarth, which it is hoped will be completed by the latter part of this year.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many operations in National Health Service hospitals will have to be postponed or cancelled in Wales because of staff shortages in the national blood transfusion service; and if he will make a statement.

The blood transfusion service has taken contingency measures to minimise the effect of the difficulties experienced in recruiting clerk/drivers. The Welsh Office recently issued authority for special payments to be made for four new clerk/drivers. In the meantime, the situation is being closely monitored. Emergency surgery will not be affected.

I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he agree that the Welsh Office has brought about this crisis in the national blood transfusion service in Wales by stubbornly refusing, for much longer than any of the comparable English authorities, to approve a variation order affecting the basic salary of clerks and other administrative staff in the service? Does he further agree that the time has come to see to it that Health Service administrative and clerical support staff are employed on conditions which provide for low turnover and reasonable wage rates so that job satisfaction can be combined with reasonable remuneration? Should we not do that rather than rely on high turnover and low wages, resulting in a constant attempt to recruit new staff to replace the experienced staff, on whom the service depends?

The hon. Gentleman rightly wants a steady and stable supply of staff to carry out this very responsible duty. However, I reject his charge that the Welsh Office is in some way responsible for the present state of affairs. The difficulty has been finding a proper grading policy for clerk/drivers and others in the Health Service. The staff side did not necessarily approve the proposals that were put to it in the Whitley council. It is now in the joint negotiating committee, and we hope to arrive at a conclusion that will end this problem once and for all.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest unadjusted figures for unemployment in (a) Newport, (b) Gwent and (c) Wales; and if he will give the equivalent figures for 1979 on the most nearly comparable basis.

On 14 April 1988 the numbers of unemployed claimants in Newport district, Gwent and Wales were 7,774, 22,728 and 140,073 respectively. Unadjusted figures for 1979 are not available on a basis that enables a valid comparision to be made.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the number of people in employment in East Anglia increased by 18·2 per cent. between 1979 and 1987, whereas in Wales the number fell by 14·9 per cent.? Will he confirm that, despite umpteen changes in compiling the statistics, unemployment in Newport, Gwent and Wales is still significantly above the 1979 figure?

I am very well aware that East Anglia had no coal or steel closures during that period, and that made a considerable difference to the figures. I am glad to say that many more jobs are being created in a diversity of employments and, with our current positive regional policy, that trend is continuing.

Is it not a fact that in East Anglia there has also been a recent improvement in communications, which has resulted in a great improvement in the industrial standing of the region? Will my right hon. Friend confirm that there has been an extremely promising decrease in the number of unemployed in Newport, Gwent and in Wales and a vast increase in the number of notified vacancies?

The best indicators of that increase are the local newspapers throughout Wales, which show a large increase in the number of advertisements of vacancies. There is no doubt that in many parts of Wales that trend is continuing, but there is still a long way to go.

Will the Secretary of State explain why unemployment in Mid Glamorgan has doubled since 1979, and why, according to the latest figures, there has been a substantial increase in unemployment in that region? In my constituency of Cynon Valley male unemployment is now 28 per cent.—the highest level in Wales. Will he tell his Department that we are sick of glossy brochures such as the one I have here from British Coal Enterprise Ltd., which, despite all the hype, has created only 44 jobs in the Cynon Valley, despite the fact that 2,300 men have lost their jobs in the mining industry?

I recognise the problems in the hon. Lady's constituency, but I am sorry if she is suggesting that British Coal Enterprise has not done a good job. Many hon. Members throughout the Principality have expressed their anxiety about what would happen if the activities of that enterprise agency declined. It has helped a lot of new businesses and firms and it has given a lot of advice and money. I hope that that help will continue, and I naturally hope that its activities will continue in the hon. Lady's constituency, and with results.

The fall in unemployment throughout Wales is most welcome, but will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the problems that are faced by areas such as mine and other more remote rural areas when seeking to attract inward investment? Will he impress upon the Welsh Development Agency the importance of stressing the advantages that exist in rural Wales as well as industrial Wales?

Yes. I believe that the Welsh Development Agency has been active throughout the Principality. My hon. Friend will be aware that considerable developments are currently taking place within his constituency as a result of various aid and regional assistance. Perhaps one of the most exciting developments is that in the port area, which could open up important markets in Portugal and Spain. A great deal of help has been given by the Government in such areas.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the impact on individuals and on the provision of services in Wales for which he is responsible of recent changes in housing benefit and other benefit payments in (a) Clwyd and (b) Wales in general.

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that housing benefit and social security changes will be monitored by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services and he will fully confer with the Welsh Office on the results of the changes.

May I tell the right hon. Gentleman of the dismay of one of my constituents, a world war 2 veteran, who fought from the Normandy beaches through to Hamburg and who now finds that he will lose housing benefit of £18 per week because he has a British Rail pension? I must tell the right hon. Gentleman that there are many other similar cases throughout Wales. Will he tell his Cabinet colleagues that the regulations are hurtful to vulnerable people, and will he urge the Prime Minister to think again about the harsh effects the regulations are having throughout Britain?

When one looks at the total changes, allowances as well as housing benefit, there are, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware, some people who have benefited as well as some people being put at a disadvantage. Perhaps the people who have obtained additional benefit from the changes had considerable need. As the hon. Gentleman knows, a review has already taken place, with a considerable range of changes. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services has promised that he will examine the effects of the total changes in detail. I am sure that if it is shown that further action may be needed, my right hon. Friend will take such action.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many applications by chronically sick and disabled people in (a) Ogwr, (b) Mid Glamorgan and (c) Wales, were made in 1987 for (i) central heating and (ii) other home adaptations; and how many of these were approved in 1987.

Information on the form of assistance given for home adaptations for the disabled and the number of applications made and approved is not collected by the Department. What I can tell the hon. Gentleman is the number of grants that were completed in 1987. For Wales the total was 2,325; of these 333 were in Mid Glamorgan and 96 in the district of Ogwr.

Is the Minister aware that in the district of Ogwr there are currently 600 chronically sick and disabled people on the waiting list for central heating alone? Will the Minister look at some way of providing more money from the Welsh Office to enable those people to obtain the central heating that is so often essential for the medical conditions from which they are suffering?

I am concerned at what the hon. Gentleman has said. Perhaps he will let me have a few more details on the position in his constituency. In general, Welsh district councils appreciate the needs of the disabled, and I understood that such applications were treated with priority by them.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, when the Church Commissioners last met; and what subjects were discussed.

The commissioners' board of governors and committees meet frequently to regulate all aspects of the commissioners' work. General meetings of the commissioners are held at least once a year to consider the annual report and accounts and the allocation of money. The last general meeting was held on 17 December last year.

Is it not time that the commissioners discussed the abuse of Church property by illegal immigrants for so-called sanctuary? Will my right hon. Friend dissociate himself from the British Council of Churches' recent incitement to its members to indulge in that sort of behaviour, or are we to witness the Church setting out a new immigration policy through a sort of Home Office in Heaven?

The Church Commissioners are involved only indirectly through their financial support for parish churches and incumbents in the issues raised by my hon. Friend. He will know that the right of sanctuary was abolished by law in the 17th century and the commissioners would strongly deplore any pressure put upon incumbents or church wardens to break the law of the land as duly placed on the statute book by this democratically elected House.

If the Church Commissioners had their arms twisted, as did the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, to issue an invitation to the Prime Minister to address the Synod of the Church of England, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the offence that was caused to a large number of members of the Church of Scotland when the Prime Minister said that the love of money is the root of all evil, when we see such evil taking place, particularly in the City of London? Before any such invitation is issued to address the Synod of the Church of England, will the right hon. Gentleman, who has a particular long-standing connection with the Prime Minister, ensure that she practises what she preaches?

The hon. Gentleman does less than justice to his fellow countrymen. There are several hundred members of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. To imagine that those Scottish arms are so weak that they can be twisted by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to force them to submit to an address that they did not want is, with due respect, a mockery. My right hon. Friend made a notable contribution to the important topical debate on the interaction of personal faith and civic responsibility and it was well received by the General Assembly.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, if he will make a statement about the trends in the commissioners' income during the past five years.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, what have been the trends in the Church Commissioners' income over the past 12 months.

The commissioners' investment income has risen from £69·5 million in 1982 to an estimated £116·9 million in 1987, an increase of 68 per cent., compared with inflation of 25 per cent. over the same period. In the 12 months to December 1987 their income rose by about 17 per cent.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, welcome as those trends are, they would have been even better if certain Church leaders had given their flock sound spiritual leadership rather than indulging in partisan politics?

My hon. Friend will recall that in her recent address to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said:

"Christians will very often genuinely disagree"—

about aspects of secular politics—

"though it is a mark of Christian manners that they will do so with courtesy and mutual respect."

May I tell the right hon. Member—[HON. MEMBERS: "No. Question."] Until I heard the Prime Minister give her sermon in Scotland on Saturday I had thought that the Budget was written by St. Nigel, not St. Paul. As the Prime Minister is fond of quoting St. Paul, why did she not use the part of St. Paul's first letter to Timothy, which says that our leaders should be sober, temperate and

"not greedy of filthy lucre"?

Why did she miss that?

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has taken to quoting the Scriptures. We look forward to more of that.

I am a very saintly person.

If the hon. Gentleman wants to take the letter of the law, or the letter of the word, my right hon. Friend has never hitherto—as far as I am aware—been guilty of insobriety, and she certainly was not when she adressed the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.

To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission when the Public Accounts Commission next expects to meet; and what subjects will be discussed.

To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission when the Public Accounts Commission next expects to meet; and what subjects will be discussed.

Neither the date nor the agenda for the next meeting of the Commission has yet been fixed.

When my hon. Friend next meets the Commission, will he ask it to estimate the savings that could be made by moving the National Audit Office to the regions? If he has any problem, I am sure that Stockport council will be only too pleased to assist.

The costs of the London headquarters building have been carefully considered in the past, both by the Public Accounts Committee and the Commission. My hon. Friend may wish to know that the National Audit Office currently employs 655 staff in the headquarters building, 65 in other London offices and 176 in other parts of the country and abroad. He and the House may be assured that the Commission will continue to examine closely the costs of maintaining major premises in London, particularly if in future more offices of Government Departments are dispersed to other parts of the country.

Will the hon. Gentleman place on the next agenda of the Public Accounts Commission a review of the practices of the Audit Commission, to see whether anything can be learnt about them? It appears that when the Audit Commission discovers even 12 paperclips bought by local authorities that are surplus to requirements, that is front page news. Will he therefore explain why the Ministry of Defence can overspend at will, sometimes by up to £1 billion a project, without being brought fully to account by the House or the Commission?

The Public Accounts Commission carefully examines the estimates and the corporate plan of the National Audit Office, but it does not seek to inquire into its findings. That is the task of the Public Accounts Committee, which is so ably chaired by the right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon). May I suggest that the hon. Gentleman draws his right hon. Friend's attention to this point?

Does my hon. Friend agree that the House will probably be relieved to know that the Commission has not yet set a date for a further meeting, in view of the inevitable costs associated with such meetings? Given my hon. Friend's heavy programme of engagements at home and abroad, I am sure that that will be for his convenience as well.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I cannot say that the costs of the Public Accounts Commission are considerable, unlike some other Standing Committees and Select Committees of the House. Unfortunately, the Public Accounts Commission never goes abroad, and I think that the same can be said of the Public Accounts Committee, so, I think that extra costs are unlikely to arise.

To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission when the Public Accounts Commission last met; and what subjects were discussed.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I have just given.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman a question of which I have given him notice? Will the Public Accounts Commission reflect on the view of Sir Frank Cooper, the former permanent secretary at the Ministry of Defence, as to whether—he said this in the Suntory lecture—the Prime Minister's press secretary should be paid out of public or party funds?

I do not think that the Prime Minister's press secretary's salary is a matter for the Public Accounts Commission, but if the hon. Gentleman wishes to raise it, it may be a matter for the Public Accounts Committee. In any event, it is scarcely likely that the press secretary would have high on his list of priorities the activities either of the Public Accounts Commission or of the National Audit Office.

To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission what account the Public Accounts Commission takes in examining the estimates submitted for its approval by the Comptroller and Auditor General of his broad priorities for the deployment of his staff to monitor overspending by Government Departments; and if he will make a statement.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I have just given.

Should not the Public Accounts Commission and the Comptroller and Auditor General have as their foremost priority control of defence costs? Millions of pounds are overspent or wasted. Such events are commonplace. Will the Public Accounts Commission undertake to insist that the Ministry of Defence publishes all overspends of £1 million and over? It refuses to do so at the moment. Should not public money wasted in that way be subject to public scrutiny?

The Public Accounts Commission does not look into defence spending, although we approve the estimates of the National Audit Office as a whole. I advise the hon. Gentleman to raise the matter with the right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon), the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, since I recollect from my experience of the PAC that overspending on defence is a matter that is considered frequently by that Committee.

To ask the Lord President of the Council what present plans there are to improve facilities for hon. and right hon. Members within the Palace of Westminster.

I understand that the various Sub-Committees of the Services Committee have considered and are considering a number of suggestions put to them by right hon. and hon. Members for improving facilities within the Palace of Westminster. If the hon. Lady has a particular suggestion to make, I shall of course consider it.

One of my suggestions would not be for more unisex bathrooms, but for more equal facilities for men and women in the Palace of Westminster. The Lord President will know, because I have had long correspondence with the Services Committee on the matter what I am referring to. Also, we should have better accommodation for hon. Members and their staff. The accommodation here is disgraceful. If we were subject to the health and safety regulations, most of the accommodation in the Palace would be shut down. We should also have basic facilities for the large number of staff working in the Palace, for example, a shop, so that hon. Members, instead of limping to the back of a queue late at night to get a bottle of milk and a bit of bread—[Interruption]—can shop for these basic necessities, such as toothpaste, tights and whatever else they may need during the day. Will the Lord President look seriously at the provision of such services, particularly a unisex hairdresser, who can do something for women's hair, rather than simply men's hair?

Order. I think that the hon. Lady should apply for an Adjournment debate.

Provision for a shop is included in the plans for phase 1 of the new building, which is expected to be ready for occupation in 1990. With regard to unisex, or ladies', hairdressing services, and other matters, I have read with great interest the correspondence conducted by the hon. Lady and other hon. Members, which goes back to long before I held this position. The point is well made. The Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee is considering all those matters and will continue to do so. It hopes to reach the best conclusions for the benefit of the House.

Will my right hon. Friend consider improving the facilities for tours? Now that the Palace is becoming ever more popular, the difficulty that Members of Parliament or, in practice their staff, nearly always face is in balancing on the tightrope between hiring guides and arranging for visiting parties. That could be much more easily dealt with if there was one central office dealing with all aspects.

This was looked at fairly recently, but if my hon. Friend has any suggestions he should in the first instance talk to the Serjeant at Arms.

Can the Lord President help by telling me whether my eyes deceive me or whether there is a door. in the ministerial corridor labelled "The Solicitor-General for Scotland"? Given that the Solicitor-General for Scotland does not sit in this House or the other place, how could a door so labelled be justified? If there is such a door, does the right hon Gentleman not think that the least that he could do in return is to allow some period at Scottish Question Time for Scottish Members to ask questions related to the responsibilities of the Solicitor-General for Scotland?

I would need notice of the first part of that question. I shall go and have a look for myself. I do not know whether there is a door so marked, but the arrangements for answering Scottish questions have been dealt with on a number of occasions from the Dispatch Box and I think that they are perfectly satisfactory.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is not so much the facilities of this place that need improving as the conduct of some hon. Members?

I am responsible for many things, but not for the way in which hon. Members spend their spare time.

To ask the Lord President of the Council when Cannon Row police station was vacated by police and made available to the House authorities.

In the summer of 1985.

Will the Lord President of the Council tell us when we shall have access to facilities over there? The Lord President knows that many hon. Members are complaining about the appalling working conditions that we have over here. I speak as a person who has just lifted the parliamentary stakhanovite of the year award. My hon. Friend the Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) would greatly appreciate an office and he could have one at Cannon Row.

There have been a great many things to do and there have been some difficulties about getting on with that work. Refurbishment is due for completion in the summer of 1989. The allocation of a desk for the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) is a matter for the Opposition Whip's office, and I think that there should be a desk available for him somewhere.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us feel that by and large the office facilities in the Palace of Westminster are perfectly adequate and compare quite favourably with those in the private sector? Will he urge caution on those who would waste taxpayers' money?

It is nice to hear from a satisfied customer. If there were more of them life would be easier for me. I recognise that there are some legitimate demands for better accommodation, and all those responsible are doing their best to improve matters. We cannot work miracles.

To ask the Lord President of the Council when he expects a cancer screening programme to begin for females working in the Palace of Westminster.

The House of Commons Commission has recently accepted in principle the recommendation of the Services Committee that on-site cancer screening should be provided for all women working in the House, and has made appropriate budgetary provision for this purpose. I hope that it will be possible to provide the service in the autumn.

Many of the women who have asked for this matter to be dealt with will be truly grateful for that reply. So that there is no misunderstanding outside, will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he is aware of the take-up on the pilot programme in the other place, and can he confirm that treatment was required as a result of that programme?

Yes. I cannot give exact figures for the take-up, but I know that it was high. The percentage of those who had to be referred to doctors for further investigation and treatment was also high. I think that that was part of the reason for the Services Committee recommending that this service should be brought into the House of Commons.

Is the Lord President of the Council aware that the facilities for women Members are quite disgraceful? Would he be surprised to learn that it is within my knowledge, though certainly not within my sight, that one lady Member has to surreptitiously——

Order. This question is about cancer screening. Was that within the hon. Gentleman's sight?

Added to the lack of these facilities are other facilities for women——

Order. I repeat that this question is about cancer screening.

I take this opportunity to thank the Lord President for his contribution towards getting this cancer screening programme going. I also pay tribute to the efforts of my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Orme) and my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms. Walley). Can the Lord President confirm that arrangements will be made to ensure that testing done here is properly logged, and that the women concerned are taken on board by their local call and recall schemes?

The exact details of how the facility will be organised are matters for negotiation with the women's national cancer control campaign, which is likely to provide the service, together with the local health authorities. In answer to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker), 78 women took advantage of the programme in the other place, and the tests of 19 showed that they had problems, so they were referred for further examination. I am grateful for what the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) said and I echo the thanks to the right hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Orme), who chaired the Sub-Committee that considered this matter, and to all those who supported it.

What is the cost to public funds of providing these additional facilities?

I cannot say exactly at this stage, and we shall not know for sure until the scheme has been worked out, but the budgetary provision is £10,000.

To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will bring forward proposals to extend the time available for Prime Minister's Question Time; and if he will make a statement.

I have no such proposals.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on average about 200 or more hon. Members table questions to the Prime Minister, and of those at the most five are reached? Bearing in mind that 20 or 25 years ago only about 20 or 25 questions were tabled, is there not a need to extend Prime Minister's Question Time to ensure that Back Benchers have more opportunity to question the Head of Government, especially as the Leader of the Opposition has always used this parliamentary slot as well?

I would welcome a longer appearance by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister at the Dispatch Box, and I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman has put his question in that way. I know that he has a long record of trying to improve, as he sees it, the way in which Prime Minister's questions are dealt with in the House. We have looked at this a number of times over the years and we always find that the present system is better than all others, although it is a matter that we keep under review.