To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he next plans to meet the directors and chairpersons of social services departments in Wales to discuss secure accommodation.

Although my right hon. Friend currently has no such plans, a review of secure care policy is being undertaken by my Department.

I welcome the Minister to his new duties, and wish him well.

On a day when the fragility of human life is very much in our minds, I need not emphasise to the House or the Minister—who has lost a constituent who was on remand in Swansea gaol—the supreme importance of this issue. Wales has no secure accommodation in which to put greatly troubled children. I understand that a Welsh Office working party met to consider the question of severely disturbed children in 1981 and 1982 and has yet to report. Will the Minister give us an assurance that he will give urgent priority to the need to provide secure accommodation for such young people, who have suffered greatly?

As the hon. Gentleman said, we have been considering the matter. The review that I mentioned was introduced in August last year. We hope that it will be able to report in the next couple of months, but it is contingent on the Home Office review of young people in prisons. I take the hon. Gentleman's point, however, and I thank him personally for his kind remarks about my appointment.

South Wales police have told me that 25 per cent. of all crime is auto-related, much of it committed by juveniles who are often on remand awaiting sentence for an earlier crime. In the type of accommodation provided in south Wales, juveniles can go in through the front door and no one stops them going out the back door. That is clearly not good enough; it is quite inadequate. May I press my hon. Friend to take steps as early possible to provide the necessary secure accommodation and thus make a major contribution to reducing the crime rate?

My hon. Friend makes a valuable point. It is true that the peak offending age in this country is between fourteen and a half and fifteen, and that auto crimes constitute an important proportion of those offences. This is one of the points that we are examining in the review of secure accommodation.

May I, too, welcome the Minister to his new responsibilities? He may be aware that I lost a constituent in Risley; he may also be aware that a 15-year-old from Bangor was sent there just before Christmas because of the absence of secure units in north Wales. Can he given an assurance that the needs of north Wales will be taken into account in his review?

Yes, I can give that assurance. All of Wales, north and south, is being considered so that we can decide whether that sort of secure accommodation will be necessary. As I said, however, we must await the review from the Home Office and the associated review from the Department of Health.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind comments about my appointment.

Does my hon. Friend agree that, in a civilised society, it is entirely unacceptable for juveniles to be put in adult prison accommodation or for them to have to travel long distances to reach secure accommodation? Is he aware that a large proportion of juvenile crime is committed by the very same hardened young criminals who are in deep need of such accommodation?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is clearly not acceptable for youngsters of 14, 15 and 16 to be committed to prison and we want the practice to end as soon as possible. Clearly, however, we must ensure that we have the right sort of accommodation to deal with some of the very hardened cases. I have been particularly concerned about this issue, because one of my constituents hanged himself in Swansea prison only last year. We are pressing forward as quickly as possible.

May I join in welcoming the Under-Secretary of State to his new duties? I took an interest in this issue for many years before I became a Member of Parliament. In the light of previous Government replies, does the Minister accept that, because of the present financial burdens on local authorities, it is not enough simply to pass the buck to them and tell them to find the money? Is he aware of the evidence given by the all-party group on penal affairs to the Wolff inquiry which highlighted the need for secure accommodation for young people on remand in Wales? Does he also accept the panel's view that secure accommodation will help only if the Welsh Office faces up to its responsibility to initiate and finance comprehensive action throughout Wales to divert young people from crime and to root out the causes of juvenile crime? Will he take those points into account in his review?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that we shall certainly look at what causes young people to be involved in crime. A range of measures is used at the moment—for instance, intermediate treatment—that do not involve youngsters being put into secure accommodation. We want those measures to be extended as far as possible. As for the hon. Gentleman's question about finance, if we recommend that new secure accommodation should be provided, we intend to look into how it should be paid for.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on average current weekly rates of pay in (a) Powys and (b) the rest of Wales.

The average weekly wage in Powys is £210 compared with £232 for Wales as a whole.

First, may I associate myself with the remarks of the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) relating to the late Donald Coleman? Secondly, may I take this opportunity to welcome the Under-Secretary of State to his new duties on the Treasury Bench?

Is the Secretary of State aware that average earnings in Wales are 27 per cent. lower than those in south-east England? The figure that he has just quoted for Powys is considerably lower than the Welsh average. Will he confirm that average wages in Powys are the lowest in mainland Britain? What does he intend to do to secure a better quality of employment in Powys so that people can earn higher wages and have a decent standard of living?

On the first point, the thoughts of all of us will be elsewhere this afternoon—with the Minister of State and many of our colleagues at the funeral.

Low average wages in Powys and Wales as a whole are part of our history and I very much hope that we shall make them history. The hon. Gentleman drew an analogy with south-east England. He will recognise that that has always been the case. We should reflect on the fact that during the past five years the average weekly wage has increased by 9·7 per cent. in real terms. That compares favourably with the position in the 1970s.

May I, too, on behalf of Plaid Cymru, associate myself with the expressions of sympathy to Donald Coleman's family and say how grateful we are for his life and work in the House and outside in his constituency.

As for wage rates in Powys and other parts of Wales, has the Secretary of State studied the budget of the Development Board for Rural Wales following its restructuring? Does he intend to extend the boundaries and functions of the board beyond Powys, south Gwynedd and Ceredigion to improve wages throughout rural Wales?

I had the opportunity to discuss the matter with the chairman of the Development Board for Rural Wales only last week. The hon. Gentleman knows that our commitment to the Development Board for Rural Wales is very strong. That is why we have substantially increased its budget. However, we are always considering other means of achieving the objective he describes.

Will my right hon. Friend clarify one point? When the uniform business rate was introduced, constituencies such as mine in the south-east of England were prepared to accept it if it helped areas like Wales by enabling companies to keep their weekly wages at a relatively favourable rate. Has that system come into practice?

I recognise my hon. Friend's point. A large proportion of the uniform business rate comes from businesses in the south-east, but, as I travel through the Principality, I am constantly reminded how much better the quality of life is in Wales compared with the south-east of England. We want to enhance, and continue to enhance, the environment and quality of life while ensuring that employees in Wales share in the prosperity that we are determined to achieve. The prospects for the medium to longer term in Wales are as good as ever.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he is taking to ameliorate the effects of the recession on Wales.

The substantial improvements in the Welsh economy in recent years—[Interruption.] The substantial improvements in the Welsh economy in recent years, for which my predecessors and I take full credit, together with our other partners in Wales, mean that Wales is better placed to withstand the present downturn and to resume its successful growth once inflation is under control. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we shall respond swiftly to any opportunities that arise to assist in that process of growth.

I thank the Secretary of State and I note that for the first part of his answer he did not have a straight face. The deep recession is bound to hit areas such as mine —rural areas—harder and earlier than the rest of the country, as was instanced by the problem with Biddulphs in my constituency, where 50 employees lost their jobs just before Christmas. What will he do in the next few months to help people who lost their jobs at Biddulphs and at other factories and places of work in my area to get back to work?

Although Hansard may not show it, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will recognise that I was interrupted by a series of heckles from the Opposition Front Bench which I would not want to repeat. I strongly believe that Wales has benefited enormously in the past few years from increased diversification in its economy. It has moved away from the traditional dependence on a few industries to reliance on a far broader base. In their generous moments, Labour Members will recognise and admit that. Naturally, I am concerned about job losses in Wales, but the real threat to jobs is inflation and the signs are that we are bringing it quickly under control.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that nothing would do more to prolong or deepen a recession than the introduction of a statutory minimum wage, as the Labour party proposes? Does he agree that that would lead to the loss of as many as 55,000 jobs in Wales, including at least 1,400 in my constituency?

I agree completely with my hon. Friend. In their more serious moments, Opposition Members will acknowledge the decisiveness of the point that he makes. A statutory minimum wage would be a serious blow to Welsh industry.

Does the Minister agree that, as a result of the Gulf war, the recession will be even deeper than expected? Does he agree, therefore, that there must be an ongoing role for the UN Security Council to bring about a quick solution to this conflict, thereby benefiting the economies of Wales and the third world?

I pay tribute to the hon. Lady for managing to introduce the Gulf conflict in a question on Wales. I had hoped that she might pay tribute to the initiative that brought about the Gooding Sanken project at Abercynon in her constituency. I am delighted to announce that in 1990, compared with 1989, when there were 100 inward investment projects, there are 142 inward investment projects, including the project in the hon. Lady's constituency, to which I hope she will have an opportunity to pay tribute.

Will my right hon. Friend compare the economic activity in Wales during this so-called recession with that under the previous Labour Government? For example, will he tell us about long-term unemployment during the past five years? Will he tell me what I should say to my constituents in Swindon who lost jobs in factories that moved to south Wales because of the great help that the Government gave to the people in that previously depressed area?

One of the best pieces of news to come to Wales recently is the fall in long-term unemployment. If I recall correctly, in January 1986, the number of long-term unemployed was about 78,000. According to the latest statistics, that figure has fallen to just under 23,000. My hon. Friend is right to highlight that fact. We shall continue to broadcast it, just as we shall continue our attempts to attract industries to Wales from whichever part of the country or the world they come.

The Secretary of State will be aware that the development of the Welsh economy to which he referred is not seen in the Wrexham area, where the Brymbo steelworks recently closed, resulting in 1,200 people losing their well-paid jobs. The county council is seeking to acquire the site for regeneration and redevelopment. If it can agree a sensible sum with United Engineering Steels, will the right hon. Gentleman give that project his blessing and ensure that there is no hindrance from the Department?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman recognises that Wrexham and north-east Wales have received a tremendous boost from inward investment, but he is right to point to areas of disappointment. Brymbo's closure was certainly a great disappointment to Wales. I asked the Welsh Development Agency to move in quickly to examine the opportunities for the site and that review is continuing. I hope that any local authority that wishes to advance a project will endeavour to work in partnership not only with other local authorities but with the WDA and the Welsh Office.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the expected increase in economic activity in Wales resulting from the separate southern link to the second Severn crossing.

I believe that the improved communications that will flow from the second Severn crossing will bring significant economic benefits to both sides of the Severn estuary.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. I entirely concur with him, at least in respect of the non-Welsh end of the Severn link. Is he aware of the concern expressed in my constituency that one effect of the link will be greatly to increase the traffic debouching from Wales on to the road system at Avonmouth in my constituency and heading for Bristol and the south? Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the effects of that traffic are completely taken into account in the Road Traffic Bill?

I am aware of that point, but only because my hon. Friend continually makes representations on behalf of his constituents. He will recognise that these are matters for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport. As soon as I leave the Chamber, I shall take steps to bring them, once again, to his attention.

I assure the Secretary of State that I speak in a serious and generous mood. Does he recall that when he spoke in a serious and generous mood—his moments are rarer than mine—he told the House that he thought that low pay was one of the most serious economic problems in Wales? Although construction of the new bridge may affect the economy, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the great problem in Wales is the poverty not of those unemployed but of those in low-paid employment? Does he agree that the solution that has been successfully applied in other countries by the provision of minimum pay has given dignity and decency to those on low pay?

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. As I explained, the Labour party's proposals, as described by my hon Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr. Raffan), would deal a heavy blow to industry in Wales and would constitute the wrong policy. The sooner the Labour party realises that, the better it will be for the Principality.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many properties have been sold in Wales under the provisions of the right-to-buy sections of the Housing Act 1980.

About 82,340 local authority and new town dwellings have been sold in Wales under the right-to-buy scheme.

May I join other hon. Members in congratulating my hon. Friend on his well-deserved promotion to his present position?

What percentage of houses have been sold under the Housing Act 1980? As I understand it, the percentage of home ownership in Wales is a great deal higher than in many other parts of the country—perhaps than in any other part of the country. Will my hon. Friend confirm that people who own their houses are that much more likely to have a greater commitment to the society in which they live?

I thank my hon. Friend for his kind remarks about my appointment.

My hon. Friend is absolutely right: we have sold 27 per cent. of council stock to tenants, which means that, in Wales, 71 per cent. of homes are in the hands of owner-occupiers. That figure is 4 per cent. above the Great Britain average.

Does the Minister agree that the number of homeless young people in Wales has increased substantially since 1980? If so, to what causes would he ascribe the increase?

I, too, was interested to look at the homelessness figures. The hon. and learned Gentleman will be interested to know that one third of young people who leave home do so as a result of disagreements with their families. One problem is that there is a much greater incidence of the break-up of family life at the moment which leads to young people leaving home.

That is no excuse.

The hon. and learned Gentleman is trying to argue, but the figures show that 33 per cent. of homelessness is caused by people leaving home following family disagreements.

A considerable amount of homelessness has also resulted from the increased divorce rate and resultant family break-ups. We have been taking action on that important issue. For example, we have given eight local authorities more than £2 million in supplementary credit for homelessness. We have also reserved £2·9 million of the cash available to deal with homelessness which is open to bids by local authorities.

May I put it to my hon. Friend that there is more vacant council accommodation in Wales than there are homeless people? In some areas, there are up to five times as many vacant council houses as there are homeless people on the council's register. What is my hon. Friend doing to make those local councils use their housing stock better?

In general, local authorities in Wales are better at looking after their property than those elsewhere in the country, but I shall certainly ensure that my hon. Friend's remarks are drawn to local authorities' attention. Clearly, it is important that there should be as quick a turn round of void properties as possible, and anyone who is homeless will get very annoyed if he sees local authority properties vacant for any length of time.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement about the "NHS Wales: Agenda for Action" issued in December.

The agenda for action in the NHS in Wales was published on 19 December 1990. The agenda sets out the key management objectives and the time scale within which they are to be achieved to ensure that the service continues to build on the progress made in the past decade.

My hon. Friend and I go back a long way, so it is a particular pleasure for me to welcome him to the Dispatch Box and to participate in his first Question Time.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Government's policies, which have been most welcome and which will do much to improve services in the hospitals, are part of the plan for action and that the people of Wales will benefit greatly from them? At this difficult time, when we are at war in the Gulf, I assume that a number of Welsh hospitals will make their full contribution should casualties need to be treated. Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the hospitals will be able to cope fully with the stress and strain that will come their way and will the hospitals be fully recompensed for the inevitable cost of treating those people?

I thank my hon. Friend for his kind remarks, but I wish that he had not drawn attention to the fact that we go back a long way because the comparison of the way in which I have aged in relation to him is dramatically in his favour. Perhaps my hon. Friend has a portrait in his attic.

We all hope that there will not be a large number of casualties from the Gulf war which will have to be treated by our hospitals. The Welsh health service is being held in reserve should the number of casualties be too great for military hospitals in England and for the national health service regions there. If any flights are diverted to Cardiff airport, we will deal with those casualties in Wales. We have ensured that facilities are available at St. Lawrence hospital in Chepstow to deal with burns and provide plastic surgery should those skills be needed to treat any casualties from the Gulf war.

With regard to my hon. Friend's point about finance, we have already made it clear that any money spent by the health service in Wales to deal with Gulf casualties will be fully reimbursed by the NHS.

Is not there a marked difference between this Government's attitude to the provision of health services and the opt-out of particular hospitals in Wales and the way in which they can find money when pressure arises from the Gulf war? Would not it be better to abandon any question of opting-out any hospital in the national health service so that the whole service is properly integrated and provision can be made for all Welsh patients wherever they are and under any circumstances?

First, there is no question of any hospital in Wales opting out. The proposals made by hospitals in England and in the Pembrokeshire health authority in Wales are proposals not to opt out of the health service, but to become self-governing trusts within the health service in Wales.

Rubbish.

The hon. Lady may say rubbish, but that is a matter of fact. With regard to a comparison of the running of the health service under this Government and under the previous Labour Government, there is indeed a marked difference. Under the last Labour Government, the increase in real-terms spending on the health service in Wales was 1 per cent. a year. Under this Government it is 4 per cent. a year.

Will my hon. Friend continue to bear in mind in his new position, to which I welcome him, that what is important with regard to the health service and the patient is the quality of service and the speed at which it is delivered and not whether a hospital is self-governing within the national health service or run by the private sector? Will my hon. Friend visit the two kidney dialysis units in Wales that are run by the private sector and were introduced by the former Secretary of State for Wales who is now Lord Crickhowell? Those units substantially increased the number of units offering kidney dialysis to Welsh people which have saved many lives.

I join my hon. Friend in congratulating my predecessor as hon. Member for Pembroke who did such excellent work during his eight years as Secretary of State for Wales.

My hon. Friend was quite right to refer to kidney dialysis and I hope to visit the units to which he referred in the fairly near future. In the six weeks that I have held this office I have visited seven hospitals and everything that I have seen so far illustrates the tremendous job being done by people who work in the NHS and the support that they are receiving from the Government.

May I suggest that if the Minister wants the welcome offered to him today to extend beyond today, he should set aside his extreme right-wing views on the health service. Will he specifically tell us how much extra money will be spent on administration as a result of the "NHS Wales: Agenda for Action" especially bearing in mind the Government's appalling record to date with the increase of the administrative burden on the NHS and the number of senior administrators that has been driven up by more than 100 per cent. over a 10-year period?

We need no lessons from the Labour party about spending on the NHS. The hon. Gentleman should have listened to the figures that I gave to the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) which show that spending on the national health service is now lour times as high every year in real terms than it was under the previous Labour Government. We will continue to ensure that the NHS has the wholehearted commitment of everyone in the Welsh Office team and of everyone on the Government Benches. We believe that we are doing an excellent job and we will continue to improve and progress.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many (a) in-patients and (b) out-patients were treated in NHS hospitals in Wales in the most recent year for which figures are available; and what the figures were in 1979.

In 1979, 349,695 in-patients and 1,803,728 out-patients were treated in NHS hospitals in Wales. The latest comparable information for the year ended 31 March 1990 shows that 469,928 in-patients and 2,313,309 out-patients were treated. That is an increase of 34 per cent. in in-patients and 28 per cent. in out-patients treated.

Does my hon. Friend agree that those figures, above all others, show the improvement in the health service in Wales during the past 10 years?

Yes, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is important to make sure that we treat as many people as possible in the health service as quickly as possible. People talk about the waiting list. I am concerned to ensure that the times for which people in Wales have to wait to have their operations are brought down as quickly as possible. That is one of the key parts of the NHS "Agenda for Action".

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales which of his powers under the Water Act 1989 he has exercised since taking up his office; and whether he has any plans to seek to increase those powers.

My right hon. Friend has used a number of powers under the Water Act 1989, and, with permission, I have arranged for a list to be circulated in the Official Report. He has at present no plans to seek any increase in his powers under the Act.

Does the Minister or, preferably, the Secretary of State remember the firm promises that were given by their predecessors on the strict regulation of the water industry in Wales following the passage of the Water Act? Will the Minister explain how any benefit can accrue to water consumers as a result of the purchase of electricity shares, which could not have been achieved without that £31 million-plus purchase? Does he have any powers to investigate that purchase to give the public the full facts of the matter?

Welsh Water is a private commercial company. It is a matter for the shareholders of Welsh Water to decide the investments made by that company. From correspondence that he has had with the Director General of Water Services, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that there is a limit of 15 per cent. on ownership in the South Wales electricity board and that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State retains his golden share in the water industry. Also, it has been made clear to the hon. Gentleman in a letter of 4 January 1991 from the Director General of Water Services that he is content that Welsh Water is doing what is required of it and that, if there is any indication that consumers of Welsh Water will be harmed in any way, he will take action to prevent it.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement about secure accommodation for youngsters in Wales.

It would be premature to make a statement in advance of the findings of the present review of secure care, which it is hoped will be completed as soon as possible.

May I start by saying what a pleasure it is that an hon. Friend who has spent many years improving the standards of behaviour and achievement of young people in my constituency has now moved to apply, I hope, the same talents to Wales? I ask my hon. Friend and other hon. Members to remember how young a 141/2 or 15-year-old youngster seems in his or her own acquaintance and family. Will my hon. Friend assure us that, in the review of secure accommodation for such young people, consideration will be given to the kind of support and care that those children often require?

I thank my hon. Friend for his kind comments. I remember with affection the five years during which I taught at school in his constituency and the very good support that he gave us as a constituency Member of Parliament. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend's comments. We will take them into account in our review of secure accommodation.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the number of houses built in Wales this year to date (a) by district councils and (b) by housing associations; and if he will make a statement.

Provisional data on completions between January and October 1990 show that 529 dwellings were completed by local authorities and 1, 278 by housing associations.

Does the Minister accept that those figures are absolutely appalling? The figures that he quoted for district councils compare with 200,000 dwellings a year being built in the 1970s and the acknowledged housing association need of 5,000 new dwellings a year. Is he aware that the 40,000 homeless people in Wales and the 80,000 people who are living in unfit houses just cannot wait for that level of programme to meet their needs? There needs to be an awareness in the Welsh Office that we have a housing crisis, and something must be done about it now.

The hon. Gentleman spoils his argument by exaggerating the figures. The figures that he gave are nowhere near those that exist either for homelessness or for completions. Private sector completions in Wales in 1989 were at the highest level for 17 years. We are also concerned to increase the stock of housing available in Wales. Housing associations, in conjunction with Housing for Wales, are now on target for 3,000 completions for the year.

Will the Minister do his utmost to encourage local authorities in Wales to increase the amount of sheltered accommodation, as this is one of the most effective ways of reducing the amount of homelessness in Wales by enabling single elderly people to move out of two and three-bedroom council houses?

My hon. Friend makes a very good point, not only in the number of houses released; it is also good sense for the elderly people concerned, as it enables them to maintain their independence by living within the community without having to go into residential homes.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make it his policy to publish the recommendations of the recent staff inspection report into the National Library of Wales once they have been considered by the institution.

It is not the practice to publish staff inspection reports and we have no plans to publish any part of the report on the National Library of Wales.

I hope that the Minister will think again. While there are clearly items in it that should be kept confidential, there other items, such as charging for exhibitions and closure of the printing press, which merit a wide discussion in the Principality before they are enacted. I hope that the Minister will think again and I ask him to think again about publishing a summary of the recommendations of the report and the actions that he proposes to take.

I understand that this report was prepared with co-operation of the staff on the understanding that it would not be published. Therefore, I do not think that it is right to go back on the word that was given to the staff at the time. Clearly some of the issues that were addressed in the report will have to be addressed by the House at some stage and of course that will occur.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissions, if he has any plans to review the stipends of bishops; and if he will make a statement.

Bishops' stipends are set annually by the Church Commissioners acting as the central stipend authority of the Church of England. They are increased by the same percentage as the average stipends of incumbents. These arrangements were last reviewed in 1985.

When my right hon. Friend and his associates look at the stipend of bishops again will he look at the stipend of suffragan bishops? Will he look at the emoluments of suffragan bishops to see whether these could not be improved to enable these bishops better to do the work that they have to do? When the final cheque is sent to the Bishop of London, Dr. Graham Leonard, will they send with it a fine tribute to his excellent tenancy of the bishopric of London and express the hope that a suitable successor will be found for him?

I am sure that my hon. Friend's reference to the Bishop of London, Dr. Graham Leonard, will be well received in every part of this House and that the Bishop himself will be very glad that my hon. Friend found the opportunity to make the point. On the question of the differential between the pay of suffragan and diocesan bishops, I point out that there is a genuine differential in the work that they have to do. My hon. Friend will be aware that the differential tends to be narrowed by the fact that both suffragan and diocesan bishops receive free housing and a non-contributory pension as well as the costs of their expenses and staff.

Since the Government so often advise us that increases in salaries should be related to productivity and not to the rate of inflation, will the right hon. Member take into account that there has been a marked increase in attendances at Church of England churches in the past year?

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that the productivity of the clergy is noted in the cure of souls. If he can find an appropriate visible and tangible measure of assessing the progression of souls into the Kingdom of Heaven, we shall be glad to see it.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, if he will set aside funds to mark the quincentenary of the birth in 1491 of King Henry VIII.

No, Sir. The Commissioners' funds are directed to the support of the clergy of the Church of England and their widowed spouses and may be used for no other purposes without specific legislative authority.

As the question was, of course, tabled before Christmas and as our minds are very much now on the middle east, may I remind my right hon. Friend that without King Henry VIII there might be no Church of England or Church Commissioners and that, at Hampton Court palace in my constituency, between 27 and 29 June, there will be a splendid celebration to mark the birthday of King Henry VIII?

I take careful note of the important event, mentioned by my hon. Friend, in his Twickenham constituency, at Hampton Court. I am glad that my hon. Friend has survived so many years as the admirable representative of the Twickenham constituency. I suspect that, had he been a courtier at the time of King Henry VIII, he would, through his love of music, have survived just as long. We shall all do our best to support. the Hampton Court celebration of King Henry VIII's birthday.

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that one of your illustrious predecessors, Mr. Speaker, might have lived longer had it not been for Henry VIII, a king who did not have an unblemished record?

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has pointed out that King Henry VIII let off missiles that were multi-headed, or whatever the correct technical term is. I am afraid that he slew a few people whom we might have preferred to have been kept alive for a little longer, even if he slew a few people whom we thought were well dead. The hon. Gentleman will be relieved to know that the Church of England nowadays is thoroughly ecumenical in outlook and, to that extent, has taken a different path from that taken by King Henry VIII.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, as representing the Church Commissioners, what assessment has been made of the financial implications of numbers seeking ordination as women deacons during the next five years.

Tentative projections of the numbers of women being ordained as deacons do not suggest the need for any significant change in the balance of the Commissioners' expenditure in future years. However, I understand that the General Synod is currently consulting dioceses on numbers, cost and deployment in the ordained ministry, including women. The Commissioners will carefully consider any implications for them flowing from this exercise.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Is he aware that many look forward to the day when these ladies can become not only fully frocked priests but bishops of the Church?

That is an interesting, and perhaps even controversial, supplementary question. I am glad to be able to tell my hon. Friend that the decision on whether women can be ordained as priests in the Church of England is properly a decision to be reached by the new General Synod, and it has not yet had a definitive and final vote on the matter. Therefore, any reply that I gave my hon. Friend would be hypothetical.

To ask the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what discussions he has had about payments made to Refreshment Department staff; and if he will make a statement.

The Commission has a statutory duty to ensure that the pay and other conditions of service of all staff of the House are kept broadly in line with those in the civil service.

The pay of Refreshment Department staff is linked to that of civil service industiral grades and was last increased on 1 July 1990 by £11 a week. A review of the pay and grading structures of grades linked to the industrial grades is currently being undertaken and if, as a result, changes are proposed, the trade unions will be consulted.

The Commission believes, however, that the pay of the Refreshment Department staff compares reasonably favourably with pay in the catering industry as a whole.

Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that, when the staff in the Refreshment Department were paid single-time payments for coming to the Houses of Parliament on Christmas eve and new year's eve, without a proper unsocial hours payment, that was in accordance with the practices of other civil service Departments and catering establishments outside? I suggest that the hon. Gentleman has immediate discussions with the trades unions concerned, makes retrospective payments for those two days at double time, and makes sure that it does not happen again.

A small number of Refreshment Department staff manned outlets in the House as a result of a request from the staff side of the Whitley council, on account of the number of members of staff of other Departments, and of hon. Members, who were working on those days. There has been, as far as I know, no request from the trade unions for alternative arrangements.

To ask the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, if he will make a statement on child care provision for members of staff.

The Commission is awaiting the advice of the Select Committee on House of Commons (Services) on the results of a feasibility study undertaken by the Administration Department into the possible provision of child care facilities, either on-site or in conjunction with other public services in the Westminster area, for the children of Members, their staff and the staff of the House. I understand that the Services Committee will be considering its response to the study in early February and I expect the Commission to consider the matter shortly thereafter.

In the feasibility study of the Administration Department, there is no real barrier to the provision of child care. The problem is lack of political will. When the gymnasium recently vacated its room—a very large room with washing facilities which were ideal for a crèche—why was that not handed over for a creche on that occasion, as recommended by the local branch of the Transport and General Workers Union? When will this Parliament become a decent employer and provide proper facilities for children?

I have a great deal of sympathy with the case that the hon. Gentleman is advancing. One of the reasons why the former gymnasium area was not considered suitable is that it has no access to any outside area, which is normal when providing play facilities for children. These matters are under discussion. The complicated nature of the discussions that have had to take place illustrates the case for the reforms that we discussed last Thursday.

To ask the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what is the current cost in wages and salaries of the House sitting after 7 pm; and if he will make a statement.

The rates of night duty payments to non-industrial staff required to be on regular duty as a result of evening sittings of the House are set out in the Commission's annual report. Industrial staff are paid at appropriate overtime rates.

The financial information systems now available, to which I referred in the debate last Thursday on the Ibbs report—Official Report, 17 January 1991, column 1049 —do not make it possible at present to identify without disproportionate cost the total wage and salary costs directly attributable to sitting after 7 pm.

The hon. Member will be aware that there is now considerable interest in getting some more sensible hours in this place. Has he in his travels discussed with members of staff their views on having, for example, a regular 12 to 7 pm sitting of this House so that they could get home at a reasonable time?

I have found this to be a more common subject among Members than among the staff of the House, who are always very ready to provide the services that the House needs at whatever hours it chooses to sit. I have a great deal of personal sympathy with the hon. Member, but my job as a Commissioner is to ensure that the House is staffed at the hours it chooses to sit, whatever they may be.

To ask the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, if he has any plans for profit sharing amongst the staff in the Refreshment Department.

The House of Commons Commission has a statutory obligation, as I have reminded the House, to keep the pay and conditions of its staff in line with those of the civil service; and I understand that their current conditions make no provision for profit sharing. Given that much of the staff costs and administrative overheads of the Refreshment Department is met from the House of Commons administration vote, it is debatable whether the trading fund's accumulated surplus can be counted as a profit. The long-term financial future of the Refreshment Department is under active consideration by the Commission.

Then why cannot we change the conditions? Everyone in this House knows how hard the staff in the kiosk work, particularly over the Christmas period. One sees Members going away with wheelbarrows full of sticky comestibles to bribe their constituents, their friends and the Conservative party. Is it not about time that we started treating our staff decently and that we stopped taking advantage of them?

I agree that the staff in the kiosk worked very hard over the Christmas period. The Commission is constrained by a statutory duty to keep pay broadly in line with civil service conditions, but I shall ensure that the hon. Member's suggestion is again looked at to see whether in any way it can be pursued.

To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement on the progress of his review of the hours of sitting of the House.

I am considering how best to take the matter forward.

I wonder whether I could encourage the Lord President to be a little more forthcoming? What steps does he see having to be taken between our current position and eventually arriving at some sort of sensible hours, again perhaps from 12 to 7 pm with an automatic closure? Has he mapped out in his own mind any steps or obstacles that need to be overcome?

I have had discussions with many Members and also with the Chairman of the Committee on Procedure. It is very clear from those, and indeed from the public debate since this matter was recently re-raised, that there is a wide difference of views in the House about these issues. On the broader issues, it is important that I should look at how widely to take it and at exactly what method to use to enable all Members to express their views. In regard to immediate steps, one thing that can be done to which I have attached priority is the setting up of the European Standing Committees which will certainly ease the pressures on the Chamber in regard to late hours. I hope that the hon. Member will support what we shall try to do tomorrow night.

Would my right hon. Friend care to report that when an experiment not too many years ago involved an alteration in sitting hours, it was abandoned in the best interests of what we are here to do, which is to legislate for the country?

As my hon. Friend suggests, there are wide differences of view. Any step that is taken needs to have the full co-operation of the House, or it will be ineffective.

I welcome hearing that the Leader of the House wants to take forward the reform of the sitting hours of the House. With that in mind, will he publish a Green Paper or place in the Library a comparative study of the hours of sitting and the methods of work of other legislatures in western democracies?

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. In considering how to take any reform forward, I have been contemplating how we might examine some of the issues that are relevant to the House that arise in other legislatures. We must be careful, because it is not always possible to translate back to the House what other legislatures do.

My right hon. Friend has probably heard much from lady Members representing London constituencies, who would like to work between 12 noon and 6 or 7pm. What of the wives of Members who represent northern constituencies, who are working in the north and whose jobs do not permit them to come to London during the working week? The fear of many hon. Members, such as myself, who represent northern constituencies, is that if we have normal office hours we shall work for five days a week and the recesses will become shorter. That will mean that we shall have less time with our families and less time to spend with our constituents.

It is striking that that point of view has been expressed by hon. Members on both sides of the House since the proposal was first aired.

To ask the Lord President of the Council if he has any proposals for improving facilities for visitors to the House.

Arrangements to speed up access for line-of-route visitors and to afford them protection from the weather while they wait are now in place. The Catering Sub-Committee has made certain proposals in relation to catering for visitors to Parliament that are to be considered in the near future by the Services Committee. Consideration is also being given to the special needs of disabled visitors to the House.

The entire House will look forward to the proposals being put before it. Is it not a fact, however, that, as things stand, this Parliament treats its visitors far worse than perhaps any other Parliament in the world, although I must confess that I do not know what conditions are like in Baghdad at present? Would it not be possible to use Westminster Hall—I have put this question to the Lord President before—where seats could be provided? Cover and necessary access to toilets and refreshment facilities could be made available. We must start making visitors welcome to this place rather than treating them like pariahs.

Quite a few steps have been taken, especially in respect of the disabled. I am keen to see what more can be done. The hon. Gentleman will know that mass lobbies of the disabled are permitted access to Westminster Hall. That is obviously a carefully controlled situation. I understand that previous studies have suggested that wider use of the facility could raise certain security problems.

Is it not the case that in years gone by Westminster Hall was used extensively for the purpose of shopping and for providing facilities both for Members and for city merchants? Why is it not possible for those arrangements to be reinstituted, with a proper bookshop, proper gift and souvenir facilities, suitable waiting areas and appropriate televison areas and other areas in which our constituents, out of the rain and snow, could wait to see us?

I am not sure that all hon. Members would welcome great shopping parades in Westminster Hall. In phase 1 of the new parliamentary building, there will be limited shopping and kiosk facilities.

To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make arrangements to keep the offices of Members and their staffs heated during recesses.

Heating is already provided during recesses

Were not the offices of Members and their staffs, as well as the Corridors, appallingly cold during the recent winter recess and overbearingly hot during the summer recess? Are not these conditions the result of a lack of proper ventilation? Surely the fact that the majority of Members do not attend the House during the recess is no reason why those who do, and their staffs, should freeze or fry.

I think that some of the difficulties arising from heat in the summer and cold in the winter are due to the nature of the building, most of which was constructed before the introduction of modern facilities. In that respect, the new parliamentary building will be quite different.

However, heating is provided during recesses. Sometimes problems are due to the breakdown of specific pieces of equipment.

To ask the Lord President of the Council whether he will carry out a survey of wheelchair access in the Palace of Westminister.

The parliamentary works officer is carrying out feasibility studies into a number of proposals to improve wheelchair access—proposals which were received last month from the right hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley), chairman of the all-party disablement group. Once these studies have been completed, the results will be forwarded to the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee for its consideration.

Can the Leader of the House assure hon. Members that steps will be taken swiftly to make these premises accessible to people in wheelchairs? In the meantime, will he please arrange to have railings provided at the steps leading down to the Committee Rooms off Westminster Hall? It is well known that a distinguished Peer going to a meeting two weeks ago fell. Indeed, he was very lucky not to be severely injured.

That is one of the access improvements currently being considered following suggestions from the hon. and learned Member. These relate to the Grand Committee Room, the Jubilee Room and the Interview Rooms.

To ask the Lord President of the Council if he has any plans to improve the access of visitors to the Refreshment Department shop.

There are no current plans to do so.

I hope that my right hon. Friend will reconsider this matter. When one has a party of visitors from one's constituency it is very difficult to take them in small groups to the shop.

There are certain advantages in having the shop located where it is. In particular, the current location means that people going there have to be taken in by an hon. Member. When phase one of the new parliamentary building comes into operation it will have a branch kiosk.

To ask the Lord President of the Council what steps he took to discover the opinions of hon. Members before giving his answer to the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Latham) on the ecological consequences of a Gulf war on 10 December, Official Report, column 658.

It was not necessary to do so.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman's answer a symptom of the difficulties that this House faces when the two Front Benches are agreed on a course of action? In the light of this difficulty, may we ask for consideration of an amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) expressing the minority point of view?

What does that have to do with this question?

The point made before Christmas was that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Latham) said, ecological difficulties in the Gulf can be avoided if Saddam Hussein withdraws from Kuwait immediately. I saw no need for wider consultation towards agreement with that view, as it had already been expressed very clearly in votes in this House.