To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, if he will make a statement about the Commissioners' investment policy.

The Church Commissioners' long-standing investment policy is the effective and prudent management of the assets entrusted to them, to achieve the best total return for the furtherance of their primary object, which is the financial support of serving and retired clergy.

May I congratulate my right hon. Friend upon the success of the Commissioners' investment policy, which has enabled them significantly to increase stipends? Does he agree, however, that it would be more effective for the Church if stipends were related to performance rather than minimum stipends?

My hon. Friend will appreciate that performance-related pay in the cure of souls is a difficult concept. Nevertheless, the Church of England is actively engaged in a programme of appraisal of clergy performance, with which are linked proposals for consideration of the terms and conditions of service of clergymen, including the continuation of the parsonage freehold.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, how much has been granted to the redundant churches fund in each of the last two years.

The redundant churches fund received £1·7 million from the Department of the Environment and £760,000 from the Church Commissioners in 1990, and £1·8 million and £774,000 respectively in 1991.

My right hon. Friend will, I am sure, endorse the importance of fostering sacred and secular links. He may be aware that the custom of displaying royal arms in churches has fallen into abeyance since Queen Victoria's time. Will he make representations within the budget to which he referred to urge the Commissioners to restore that agreeable practice in the 40th year of this monarch's reign?

It is true that, from 1660 onwards, it became compulsory to display the royal arms in every church as a reminder to clergy and the congregation that the monarch was the head of the Church. If that practice has declined somewhat, it has been because nobody had any doubt that the Queen was the head of the Church. However, should Mr. Delors and the European Commission cast envious eyes at the Church of England from Brussels, it may be necessary to encourage the reintroduction of the painting of the royal coats of arms on parish churches in England.

How often in the past two years have the Commissioners ignored the advice of the redundant churches fund, and how many historic buildings have been lost thereby?

I think that only one historic building has fallen prey to the failure of the Commissioners and the Advisory Board for Redundant Churches to meet, consult and agree. The work and co-operation of those bodies is very vigorously, sensitively and carefully carried out to ensure that redundant churches of note are not demolished.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that fewer churches would be declared redundant if they were less expensive to maintain? In that context, will he assure me that the Church Commissioners are continuing to press the Treasury for relief from VAT for repairs to listed buildings?

I assure my hon. Friend that that is the case.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, what has been the amount lost through theft in respect of Church Commissioners' property over the last three years; and if he will make a statement.

The majority of the Commissioners' property—commercial, residential and agricultural—is leased to tenants who would naturally insure against theft themselves. The Commissioners therefore do not have details of individual cases, and cannot estimate the amount lost overall.

I hope that the Commissioners are concerned about the prevalence of theft from churches for which they are ultimately responsible. The number of artefacts that is now leaving the churches rivals the number at the time of the dissolution of the monasteries. In my day, it was just the lead from the roofs that went missing, but it is now anything that can be put into the back of a lorry. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of an excellent book that has been written and published by the Staffordshire police, who are so very good at smuggling guns into Brixton gaol, which tells churches how they can be made more secure to stop things being taken from the buildings? Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that all churches have access to that excellent publication?

Yes, and I shall certainly take careful note of the hon. Gentleman's point. However, the Church Commissioners are not directly responsible for parish churches. The hon. Gentleman talked about smuggling arms into prison. Although the Church Commissioners are more concerned to ensure that bibles are, if necessary, smuggled into prison, we shall certainly be on the lookout for guns being smuggled into churches.

Does my right hon. Friend think that my National Lottery Bill might be the answer to many of the Church Commissioners' prayers, as one of its objects would be to benefit our heritage, the proudest part of which must be some of our churches? Does he agree that making money available to the Commissioners for that end would play a substantial part in helping to secure those parts of the Church that are of extreme value—the things that are now being stolen?

I should emphasise to my hon. and learned Friend that praying is never a gamble and that the income to be derived from gambling is a great deal more volatile than that which is likely to be derived from praying. We shall stick to the safe old ways.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is considerable concern about theft from redundant churches, which are so frequently not protected against people breaking into and vandalising them? Will my right hon. Friend now make representations to the redundant churches fund, so that sufficient money can be made available properly to secure those churches until an alternative use is found for them?

Yes, I take note of my hon. Friend's point, which should be a practical preoccupation for diocesan authorities. As my hon. Friend will know, demolition is sometimes an option when a church is declared redundant, but, generally speaking, the use of that redundant church for alternative beneficial social purposes is quickly arranged.

As somebody who is very interested in and responsible for redundant churches in Scotland, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether, since it is Christmas, he thinks that it would be charitable of the Labour party, so that the the redundant churches can be repaired, to return the £26 million that were given to it by Mr. Robert Maxwell?

That is a bit wide of the question. I am not certain that the Church Commissioners are responsible for churches in Scotland, but let us hear the answer.

I am particularly glad to have a reminder of the Christmas spirit from so distinguished a Scottish colleague. That can only mean one thing in this context, but fortunately the Church Commissioners are not responsible for church buildings in Scotland.

To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, what financial estimates the Church Commissioners are making in respect of the effect on their expenditure of the introduction of the ordination of women; and if he will make a statement.

In the event of the draft legislation being enacted, the cost to the Church Commissioners would depend on how many clergy resigned who were eligible for financial assistance. The cumulative cost to the Commissioners' income per 100 men has been estimated at £4·5 million spread over up to 20 years, although that could be offset by savings to the Church of England of over £2 million over that period as a result of the departure of clergymen. Those clergy would also have access to the Church's retirement housing scheme.

Does my right hon. Friend and those whom he represents accept that those people—I am not one of them—who oppose the ordination of women have a right to their conscience? Will the Church Commissioners make continued provision for them and for their churches, even if they form part of a schismatic movement, as they have every right in conscience to do?

I can confirm that it is the deliberate intention of the General Synod of the Church of England to make certain that, if the House endorses the ordination of women—should it come before us, which it may not—clergymen who depart on conscientious grounds will be provided for. The Church of England is determined on grounds of principle and general sensitivity in human relationships to make good provision for those who feel that they are bound to resign their livings.

rose——

Dr. Godman, but the question is about the Church of England.

May I respectfully suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that, if he and the Church Commissioners are worried about the intended and unintended consequences of the ordination of women, they could seek wise advice from the Moderator of the Church of Scotland? We in Scotland have some fine women ministers, who carry out their duties in an honourable and decent manner.

The hon. Gentleman refers to "women ministers", but, alas, the very word "minister" illustrates the controversy. A minister is not necessarily a priest, and it is the ordination of the priesthood that causes the difficulty.