House Of Commons
Thursday 17 June 1993
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
Prayers
[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]
Private Business
London Underground (Jubilee) Bill
Lords amendments agreed to.
East Coast Main Line (Safety) Bill (By Order)
Woodgrange Park Cemetery Bill Lords (By Order)
Orders for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Thursday 24 June.
British Railways (No 4) Bill (By Order)
Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [8 February], That the Bill be now read a Second time. Debate to be resumed on Thursday 24 June.
Croydon Tramlink Bill Lords (By Order)
London Local Authorities Bill Lords (By Order)
Orders for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Thursday 24 June.
Oral Answers To Questions
National Finance
Public Expenditure Review
1.
To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what areas of welfare spending he has excluded from his review of public expenditure.
3.
To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what progress has been made in his review of public expenditure of major spending Departments.
The Government are conducting a long-term review of public expenditure starting with the Department of Social Security, Department of Health, Department for Education and the Home Office.The Government have a duty to examine all areas of public spending to ensure that they give value for money. We would be failing in our duty if any area were to be exempt from scrutiny. The reviews will produce interim results that will be helpful in this year's public expenditure survey.
Millions of people are concerned about the review and the Government should set out its terms of reference and scope. Given the Chief Secretary's meeting with the Prime Minister to rewrite invalidity benefit, will he confirm that the Government intend to exclude
Before I am accused of scaremongering, I may say that that is a direct quote from the Department of Social Security document prepared for that meeting. Will the Chief Secretary explain what other cuts he intends to make to meet the £5,000 million target set for the DSS that is mentioned in that same document?"those who suffer from progressive diseases—for example, multiple sclerosis—and heart patients who are unable to walk on the flat for 200 yards"?
The hon. Gentleman knows that the Government are on all fours with the Opposition. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said:
That is what the Government are doing. We are examining the way in which we provide value for money through the system. As to invalidity benefit, the hon. Gentleman knows that that must be looked at. There has been a massive increase in the number of claimants for invalidity benefit at a time when the health of the nation has been improving. That benefit now costs £6·2 billion a year. No decisions have been taken—in fact, no firm proposals have yet been put to Ministers. It is of course of great importance to us to ensure that the vulnerable are protected."I set up the Social Justice Commission to conduct a very wide-ranging view of the … complex system of tax, benefits and rights … We have not looked at any of this, almost since Beveridge."
Now that the Chancellor has ruled out prescription charges for pensioners and charging for hospital beds, will he improve his left-wing credentials further by ruling out additional cuts in invalidity benefit and prescription charges in respect of children who are just above income support level? Or does the Chief Secretary feel that the Chancellor will be a little too worried about his own political advancement if the right wing of the Conservative party disapproved?
The hon. Lady does not help the debate by trivialising it. We obviously have to address the question of social security spending rising faster than our national income, which presents us with a problem. We must examine the benefits that are growing fastest and ask ourselves why benefits are rising 3 per cent. a year in real terms, which is much faster than national income. We must take careful decisions. There will be no announcements before November, and it will be later than that, in respect of long-term questions, before we can reach decisions, because those serious matters need careful consideration.
When my right hon. and learned Friend reviews public expenditure, will he bear in mind that every firm in the country that has survived during the recession—small, medium or large—has had to cut its overheads and slim down its staff? Meanwhile, the public sector and local government are still bloated. In the last year, we have increased the strength of the civil service by 2·5 per cent.—nearly 14,000 people. When he looks for savings, will my right hon. Friend set all Departments a target of a 5 per cent. reduction in manpower to cut the Government's overheads?
My hon. Friend has made an important point. In examining Government spending, all we are really doing is ensuring that the public sector does what the private sector has had to do throughout the recession—make sure that it lives within its means. The same applies to every family in the country. It would be intolerable if people made sacrifices, while the Government continued to live beyond their means on the back of borrowing and taxation which are available to them but not to families and businesses.
We need to consider civil service numbers and running costs very carefully. The civil service had quite a tight settlement last year, and I imagine that next year's figures may show the lowest number since the war. I think that that is quite appropriate.We all greatly admire the excellent work of the national health service, but will my right hon. Friend invite the Secretary of State for Health to consider whether she should continue to provide surgical operations on the NHS for the removal of tattoos? If a person has had printed on his skin signs, symbols, messages and coloured pictures—
Order. I have the impression that the hon. Gentleman's question might be better put to the Secretary of State for Health herself. The Chief Secretary has probably got the point by now.
I thought my hon. Friend's question very valuable. It is now etched indelibly on my mind.
Now that the Cabinet has met to discuss public spending, why does not the Chief Secretary use this opportunity to rule out cuts in invalidity benefit for those suffering from multiple sclerosis, and the heart patients who cannot walk 200 yards? Why does he not tell us that he will drop his proposal to privatise some national insurance benefits, and that anything other than full compensation for pensioners and others on low income who have been hit by VAT rises will not be enough? Why must the users of public services pay the price of the Government's economic mismanagement?
I wonder why the hon. Gentleman does not use his own opportunity to desist from scaremonger-ing. Is he not aware of the real anxiety and fear that he causes? Is he not aware of the disrepute in which he is now held because of the disgraceful tactics that he has used, day after day? Is he not aware that the British people are now pretty well fed up with him, and that he should stop?
Does my right hon. Friend agree that, although it is important to review all aspects of public expenditure, many people are rightly concerned about the growth in the expenditure of the Department of Social Security? They expect the Government to review all the various benefits properly, and to ensure that they are targeted. At the same time, members of the public wish us to ensure that NHS expenditure is protected.
My hon. Friend's comments are very valuable. They come as a breath of fresh air after the question from the hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown): I am very grateful.
Investment And Unemployment
2.
To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on the relationship between the Budget measures for investment and unemployment levels.
The Budget measures for business have been warmly welcomed by the business community. They provide an excellent environment for investment and job creation.
Given that the CBI's industrial trends survey shows that manufacturing firms are still cutting investment, will the Minister tell us what specific steps he will take to promote investment—especially in areas affected by coal pit closures, defence cuts and local authority capping?
In a week in which the Central Statistical Office has announced that manufacturing output is now rising at an annual rate of 5 per cent.—the House may be interested to learn that it fell by exactly the same amount when Labour was in power between 1974 and 1979—I do not feel disposed to take any lectures from Labour about how to create an environment in which businesses expand and jobs can be created.
The hon. Lady asked what measures had been introduced to promote business investment. Let me list the measures introduced in the Budget and the autumn statement, which have been welcomed by the business community. In those statements, the previous Chancellor increased the amount of export credit available, provided a £2 billion cash flow benefit to British industry through the advance corporation tax changes, abolished car tax, introduced capital allowances and put extra money into the housing market through changes in the housing associations and in the capital receipts regulations for local authorities.My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary omitted from that list the £150 million leasing deal for new railway rolling stock, which was announced in the autumn statement and which is much needed to help preserve jobs in the train-making factory in York. Does he agree that the sooner we establish the leasing market for new trains, the sooner more of those who have been made redundant in York and other places can be put back to work? Would it not help that process if the Labour party dropped its objections to the Railways Bill?
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The measure to which he refers reflects not only the Government's commitment to investment in railway rolling stock, which my hon. Friend is right to welcome, but, more importantly, the Government's commitment to improving the service available on British railways through the changes to be introduced in the Railways Bill.
Does not the Financial Secretary understand that the minuscule changes to the petroleum revenue tax announced in the Budget will do nothing to safeguard jobs in the oil industry? Is he aware that only yesterday the Association of Offshore Diving Contractors made it clear that there are likely to be about 21,000 job loses? How can he say that he is trying to deal with investment and improve business when he carries out that sort of action which produces high unemployment?
The hon. Gentleman's dismissive attitude to the changes that we annnounced yesterday is not reflected by Brindex, which made proposals very similar to those that we announced. As the House knows, the fundamental reason why we are changing the PRT system is that we do not believe that among the many calls on public resources which my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary has to balance we should number subsidising the international oil industry.
Is my hon. Friend aware that many Yorkshire companies have been investing in new jobs, new factories and new manufacturing processes over the past nine years and that many have continued throughout the recession to invest their own money, not borrowed money? Perhaps he might persuade his colleague, the President of the Board of Trade, to come and look at some of that investment.
I am sure that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade is capable of being responsible for his own travel arrangements. If he were to travel to Yorkshire, he would find, as my hon. Friend rightly points out, that British industry is benefiting from the more stable environment that has been created over the past two years as a result of lower inflation, lower interest rates, a more competitive exchange rate and the opportunity for British industry to expand, which the indicators show is now being taken.
Balance Of Payments
4.
To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on the balance of payments.
The visible deficit was much the same in the first quarter of this year as in the fourth quarter of last year. Some deterioration after the movement of the exchange rate is to be expected, but our trade prospects are now very good.
Is the Minister aware that the real story is that imports are growing at twice the rate of exports? Would he care to reflect on the report published this week by the Bank for International Settlements which concludes that the Government's failure to invest in manufacturing industry means that there is not enough manufacturing capacity to support even our domestic markets when demand is low. A total of 44 per cent. of manufacturing jobs in the west midlands have been lost since the Government took office. Does not that show how short-sighted the Government have been to ignore the importance of manufacturing industry?
We have not ignored the importance of manufacturing industry or manufacturing companies. After all, if the hon. Gentleman had looked at the Financial Times' survey of the top 500 companies in Europe, he would have seen that 10 United Kingdom companies were in the top 20 for profitability. That reflects their investment, as does the fact that our export volumes are at record level.
As my right hon. and learned Friend is the 13th Chancellor in whose Question Time I have ventured to pose a question, may I confidently express the hope that he will have a happier tenure of office than his 12 predecessors? Before his officials and special advisers have time to bemuse him with contradictory economic theories and dogma, may I respectfully suggest that he should take a firm grasp of the basic proposition that if we had a large balance of payments surplus it would not matter if we had a large public sector borrowing requirement? In other words, the balance of payments is the critical statistic. So he was absolutely right in his Guildhall speech to stress the importance of helping British industry.
I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be very grateful for my hon. Friend's good wishes, especially as they come from such a wealth of experience, and for the advice that he has given.
On the question of growth in our manufacturing base, can we be told when the Chancellor will set out the detailed policy changes which will demonstrate a change in the substance rather than merely the style of his prececessor? Does he not accept that giving more television interviews than his predecessor, or the fact that he has spent most of his life in the midlands, do not in themselves add up to a new industrial policy?
We shall set out the changes at the usual time, and particularly in the Budget.
Can my right hon. Friend confirm that our exports to non-EC countries have grown in the past year? Should we not all be congratulating British business and business men for their export achievements?
Yes, indeed. I echo my hon. Friend's congratulations. In value terms, exports, excluding oil and erratics, to the whole world were 12½ per cent. higher in the first quarter of this year.
Independent Advisers
5.
To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he next plans to meet the panel of independent economic advisers to discuss the current state of the economy.
The panel of independent forecasters will be issuing its second report in early July. I look forward to receiving it.
What advice does the Chancellor think that he will receive which will boost the confidence of the country, given that in the current report the state—[HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."] Yes, that is what I went to school for. The current account deficit was £l2 billion when the panel issued its last report. The Government's forecast for the coming year is that the current account deficit will be £15½ billion: what encouraging advice does he think the panel will give him?
I imagine that when I receive the advice of the panel I shall find that it contains the variety of advice to which my hon. Friend the Member for East Lindsey (Sir P. Tapsell) rightly referred. I accept that we have a balance of payments problem, which is why I am glad that our export performance is improving and that we are doing so well especially in non-EC markets where demand is not depressed as it is in the Community. Certainly, the Government must do everything possible—in my Department and that of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade—to support our manufacturers in their efforts to export. Otherwise, I hope that the forecast will take some encouragement from the growth in GDP and manufacturing output and today's fall in the unemployment figures for the fourth successive month.
Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that there was indeed a warm welcome for what he said in his Guildhall speech about growth and recovery and especially about listening to the views of business men? Is he also aware that business men have for some time been calling for a continuation of the process of lowering interest rates? In as far as my right hon. and learned Friend is able to achieve that and therefore able to enhance and maximise growth, he will ease his own problems with the fiscal balance.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He sent me a copy of his own interesting suggestions for a policy for industry some months ago, and I have been carrying it around with me ever since. I shall refer to it once more.
One of the things that helps to show the modest signs of recovery is the nine point fall in interest rates which we have achieved recently. It has greatly helped British industry. Clearly, further changes in interest rates can be made only when we have the right circumstances. I set out at the Guildhall the type of circumstances and the type of advice that I would take before deciding on any movement of interest rates.As the Chancellor has agreed today that the trade deficit is a problem, will he outline the detailed changes in industrial policy that he will introduce? As he said at the Mansion House that achieving higher growth is his objective, what investment in employment measures will he seek to introduce? As the Prime Minister has changed the Chancellor, will the Chancellor now announce the detailed changes in policy so that the country can see action instead of just words?
It is not my intention to pre-empt the work of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade or my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment. All three of us will work in the same direction. My next major contribution will, no doubt, be November's Budget, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that he is facing a business-friendly Government who will take specific measures to sustain British industry and commerce in the recovery that it is beginning to make.
Is not it likely that the panel of experts will be able to show in its next report that Britain is heading for an economic growth rate higher than its inflation rate? Would not that be a remarkable achievement?
It would be a quite remarkable achievement. My hon. Friend will agree that it is important to ensure, first, that that is achieved, in so far as it is within the Government's power to do so, and, secondly, that this time we sustain it, because in the past Britain has done quite well for several periods but has always succumbed to various British diseases that held us up once more.
Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman recall being advised that interest rate changes should never be made to offset some unfavourable political event? Does he realise that that advice came from the eighth independent adviser, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Thames (Mr. Lamont)? Was the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Thames justified by anything in his term of office in giving that advice, and what is the Chancellor doing to change a system under which that could have happened?
I have set out quite clearly the grounds on which decisions on monetary policy will be taken. I propose to take decisions in the light of the various criteria that I have set out. It is quite right that they should be taken on the best objective advice and for good economic reasons. We will persevere with that, so I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman will have cause for complaint on that ground in the coming months.
Will my right hon. and learned Friend take note of the very good advice of his adviser, Professor Patrick Minford, who said on the radio today that, as the Government's policy had brought inflation down to almost zero, it is time for us to consider lowering interest rates so that we can get the jobs going again, which would follow from the Government's admirable effort in killing off inflation?
I know Professor Minford from times gone by. I have met him from time to time and have always listened to his advice with care. I know several members of the panel of forecasters, which my predecessor assembled, and they hold a variety of views. I am waiting to receive all their forecasts. I suspect that there will be a fairly wide range of advice, and I shall take careful regard of all of it.
Unemployed People (Cost)
7.
To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will prepare an estimate of the average cost to the Treasury of one unemployed person in terms of (a) benefits paid and (b) tax revenue lost.
The net cost to the Exchequer of an individual unemployed person depends on a wide range of variables.
I am as pleasantly surprised as, no doubt, the Minister about today's slight decrease in the unemployment statistics—which prudent observers, I am sure, will distinguish from a reduction in those who are unemployed and seeking work—but does the hon. Gentleman agree that the cost of each unemployed person, which is authoritatively assessed at approximately £9,000 per year, is the single biggest cause of the ballooning public sector borrowing requirement? Does he agree that the best way to tackle the problem is not to punish unemployed people by reducing benefits but to take positive measures to put them back to work?
The best way of helping unemployed people is not to speculate on things that are unpredictable and unmeasurable but to create an economy that creates jobs and puts working people back to work. To achieve that, the best thing that the Government can do is to follow the precedent of their record of the 1980s, when manufacturing investment increased by 67 per cent., when the number of jobs created within the economy was 3 million and when manufacturing output rose by 30 per cent. That is the record of this Government between 1982 and 1990, which we wish to recreate.
Does my hon. Friend agree that the one sure-fire way of adding to the cost of unemployment is to sign the social chapter of the Maastricht treaty?
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One of the interesting contrasts to be drawn is that between the record of this country in the late 1980s and that of France during the same period. Our growth rates were roughly the same, but the difference was that in this country we converted that growth into jobs and in France, whose socialist Government espoused the cause of the social chapter, they failed to do so. The House should draw conclusions from that contrast.
Will the Minister confirm that the Conservative Government, whose members constantly go on about sound money, are heading for a deficit of £1 billion a week—£50 billion a year—largely created by the incompetence of the previous three Chancellors?
Hear, hear.
My hon. Friend's views are just. Does the Minister accept that the way to cut the appalling deficit is not by slashing welfare payments or by charging the elderly VAT on energy, but by taking a knife to unemployment and getting this country back to work again?
The split between the two sides of the House is not over the desirability of creating extra jobs and getting unemployed people back to work—that is a shared ambition. The split is over how to achieve it. The hon. Gentleman is right to identify the budget deficit as one of the problems that have to be tackled if we are to deliver the objective that both sides of the House share. I look forward to hearing from him, and even more to hearing from his Front-Bench colleagues, how the Labour party proposes to deliver the reduction in the deficit that we all want.
Will my hon. Friend confirm that the only Governments since the first world war to reduce unemployment have been Conservative Governments? Does he agree that the way to reduce unemployment does not lie through a minimum wage, greater regulation of the labour market or the kind of socialism that has delivered 19 per cent. unemployment in socialist Spain?
My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the interesting historical fact that it is Tory Governments who cut unemployment and Labour Governments who increase it—just as, incidentally, it is Tory Governments who cut hospital waiting lists and Labour Governments who increase them.
As I said earlier, the best way to get people back to work is to create a vigorous and competitive economy. One of the best bits of news in that regard is the fact that manufacturing productivity is now rising by 7·8 per cent. a year, which means that unit wage costs in manufacturing are falling, for the first time in living memory. Those costs are falling by 2·8 per cent. a year, and that holds out the prospect of improved competitiveness and, therefore, of improved job creation. One would like to think that the Labour party would welcome that.Will the Financial Secretary confirm that the former Secretary of State for Employment put the cost to the Government of unemployment at £9,000 a year for each unemployed person? Is not the greatest cost of unemployment the cost to unemployed people and their families, and the waste to society of the wealth that their employment would otherwise generate? Are not those costs most corrosive in the case of the 1 million people who have been out of work for more than a year, who loom behind today's welcome fall in the headline unemployment figures? Will the Financial Secretary now tell us what new measures the Government will introduce to counter unemployment and, in particular, what they intend to do to bring work to the long-term unemployed? Will he also examine the case for rebates on national insurance contributions for employers who take on workers from among the long-term unemployed, to whom we must give help?
Yet again, we have the spectacle of the Labour party recognising that the budget deficit is a problem, although the only ideas that are announced from the Opposition Dispatch Box are those that would have the effect of increasing that deficit. Of course, it is true that unemployment imposes both a social cost on the individuals concerned and an economic cost on the economy as a whole. We have to address the problem of how to make unemployment fall. We believe that the way to do that is by creating a competitive and vigorous economy. That is what we are about and that is what we are constantly being obstructed in doing by the Opposition.
Will my hon. Friend give me an assurance that, while he is considering the cost of unemployment and other benefits during his public spending review, he will continue to do everything in his power to ensure that we continue to provide the most where the need is greatest?
My hon. Friend is quite right. That, of course, is precisely the purpose of the review of public expenditure on which my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary is engaged, in order to ensure that, within the public spending total, expenditure reflects today's priorities.
Business Investment
8.
To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on the level of business investment in the economy.
Business investment remains at an historically high level, despite the recession. In 1992, the share of business investment in gross domestic product was over 14 per cent., higher than in any year between 1970 and 1987.
Has the Chancellor read the report by the Bank for International Settlements, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Burden) referred, which shows a major structural weakness in the economy of this country caused by long-term low manufacturing investment? It shows that any recovery is likely to be short lived, since a balance of payments crisis will stop the recovery because of that low level of investment. Will the Chancellor explain to the House what changes in action and policy he will bring about—not words—to rectify the appalling situation caused by 14 years in which his Government have put manufacturing industry at the bottom of the political agenda?
I regret to say that I do not think that that is historically correct. At the moment, business investment is low because we are just emerging from a recession and are in the early stages of recovery, but there was a substantial investment boom in the latter years of the 1980s. Business investment in this country was up more than 45 per cent. in the three years to 1989, which was the fastest three-year growth since the war. We have a much better record of manufacturing and business investment in this country than there has been historically. I will, of course, consider measures that might sustain that good record once the recovery gets under way.
Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that one form of assistance that he could give to business investment is not to crowd out the borrowing market by the high level of Government borrowing and that, therefore, one of his key responsibilities must be to get down long-term Government borrowing, which would allow long-term interest rates also to fall?
I wholly agree with my hon. Friend, which is why the Cabinet, in its decision this morning, places such a high priority on getting down as quickly as we can the level of Government borrowing. That message is simply not taken by the Opposition, who merely come forward with opposition to any revenue raising and proposals for more spending. Indeed, in the debate last Wednesday, the Leader of the Opposition would have added £12,000 million to the public sector borrowing requirement by that one speech alone. The interests of industry and manufacturing investment in this country lie in the direction suggested by my hon. Friend.
Before Britain joined the exchange rate mechanism, it was well known that the Chancellor of the Exchequer encouraged membership on the basis that it would assist business investment. Will he argue the same case again?
Our membership of the exchange rate mechanism certainly helped us to achieve the low level of inflation which is one of the best bases for making industry competitive as we move into the recovery. The five-point reductions in interest rates before we left the ERM were as valuable as the four additional point reductions that we have made since we left the ERM. All were based on this Government's success in getting down inflation. We now have to demonstrate the same success in getting down the public sector borrowing requirement.
Housing
9.
To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what measures he has taken to assist the housing market over the last year.
We have introduced a number of measures to assist the housing market. The autumn statement announced additional housing measures of £750 million, plus time-limited measures to allow local authorities to spend nearly all their new capital receipts. The Budget doubled the stamp duty threshold to £60,000, and, following the significant easing of monetary policy since last autumn, mortgage rates are now down to their lowest levels for 25 years.
Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is interest rates that have the major influence on the housing market? Is it not correct that the low mortgage rates are giving very great encouragement to first-time buyers, the housing market as a whole and the construction industry, as new private housing starts have now increased by 20 per cent?
I agree with all that. Private housing starts are up strongly, as are the completions and the particulars delivered. All that is the consequence of the measures that I have outlined, especially mortgage interest rates.
Will the Minister recognise that, following the short-term increase in spending as a result of the relaxation of restrictions on capital receipts and the housing market package, the rented housing market is likely, once again, to decline this year? Does he now recognise that there is no justification for preventing local authorities from spending capital receipts in the long term? Will he extend the relaxation of the restrictions next year as well as this year?
We will not announce anything of that sort at the moment. I notice that new public housing has risen in the first quarter of this year to the highest level for more than eight years. That will greatly help that part of the rented sector.
Will my right hon. Friend resist the calls to release those capital receipts in one go? Is it not the case that, however attractive it may be, that would add £6 billion to the bottom line of our public sector borrowing requirement? Labour Members appear to care about that figure.
That is indeed the case, and that is why we are cautious about it.
Income Tax And National Insurance
11.
To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the average total annual payment in income tax and national insurance per employed person in 1992–93.
A married man on average earnings of £17,992 would pay £3,107 in income tax and £1,423 in employee's national insurance contributions.
Does the Minister recognise that the March Budget has meant a huge tax hike which will bear down hardest on those who are least able to afford to pay? Will he take this opportunity to tell the House and the public what further tax rises he has in store? Will he now admit that the whole country is being asked to foot the bill for the £ 10 billion-worth of tax handouts that have been given to the very rich since 1988? Why should the poor, pensioners and NHS patients be asked to pay the price for the Government's extravagance?
The hon. Gentleman refers to the record of the 1980s. One might have thought that he would take the opportunity to welcome the increase in the real take-home pay that was available to all people as a result of the economic policies of the 1980s. Under the Labour Government, real take-home pay for the man on average earnings rose by £1·20 a week at today's values—between 1979 and 1993, it has risen by £81·50 a week. Real take-home pay is what matters, not the statistical analysis offered by the hon. Gentleman.
Is it not a fact that no post-war Government have done so much to simplify the personal taxation structure of the United Kingdom as this Government? When my hon. Friend puts the final cornerstone in place in the autumn Budget with regard to future expenditure and taxation plans, I invite him to go a stage further and introduce the reform that is so necessary in the European Community—bringing our pay-as-you-earn year into line with the calendar year. Only Ireland and this country continue with the peculiar date of 5 April.
My hon. Friend is meddling with a long-standing piece of history when he wishes to put the tax system on the same calendar as that by which every one has lived since the 1750s, but I shall certainly look at it.
On the more substantive point, my hon. Friend is right to stress that the simplification of the tax system is one of the major steps that the Government have put in place which has enocuraged the development of a more competitive and successful economy and delivered the improvement in real take-home pay to which I referred earlier, and which is the bell-wether of success.Has the Financial Secretary seen the revised parliamentary answer given to me yesterday stating that the number of people who earn less than the basic rate tax threshold but will pay more in national insurance contributions in 1994–95 as a result of the Budget changes is not 500,000, as previously stated, but 2·5 million? Is not he ashamed that 2·5 million of his fellow citizens who are in work but are too poorly paid to have to pay basic rate income tax will still be required to pay extra national insurance contributions as well as extra value added tax on fuel? Can the hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that that parliamentary answer has not anticipated Government policy—[interruption]—and called the 20 per cent. band the basic rate band, solely for the purpose of—[Interruption.]—restric-ting allowances?
It must be a long time since the hon. Gentleman asked a question that secured two cheers while he asked it, particularly one so badly based on the facts. His question reflects the fact that we have increased the personal allowance in real terms by 25 per cent. since 1979. The hon. Gentleman might like to refer also to our change in the system of national insurance contributions for employees, which has reduced the burden on the low paid. It is now a more rational system and more friendly to incentives. The key to a tax system is that it is friendly to incentives and makes it worth while for people to make extra effort. That is the guiding light of our tax policy and will continue to be so.
Prime Minister
Engagements
Ql.
To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 17 June.
This morning, I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today.
I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. Will he join me in welcoming today's unemployment figures which show the fourth consecutive fall? Does he agree that that is good news for the unemployed, the economy and Britain?
Yes; above all, it is good news for those workers and their families who find themselves back in work. I am delighted at the fall of 26,000—the fourth fall in a row. I concede that unemployment remains far too high. It has fallen by nearly 80,000 since the beginning of the year. Equally encouraging, vacancies are at their highest level for two years. A few months ago, many people expected unemployment to rise throughout the year. Instead, it has fallen in Scotland, Wales and every English region.
Can the Prime Minister explain—his Minister was asked this question—why only last week the Department of Social Security claimed that the number of people on low incomes who would be worse off as a result of the national insurance increases in the Budget was only 500,000, but yesterday was forced to admit that that was wrong and the real figure was 2·25 million? What sort of advertisement is that for the competence of his Government or their understanding of the effects that his policies have on so many people?
The right hon. and learned Gentleman is operating under a misapprehension. Suggestions of a mistake are wrong. My hon. Friend was asked about the number of people below the basic rate tax threshold who will pay more national insurance in 1994–95. The answer he gave on 7 June related to people whose earnings fall below the 20 per cent. tax band. The answer he gave on 16 June related to people whose earnings fall below the 25 per cent. tax band. [HON. MEMBERS: "Ah."] Therefore, naturally the figures are different.
The Prime Minister—[Interruption.]
Order. The House must come to order. We must hear not only answers, but questions.
The Prime Minister seeks to defend his Department on the basis that it cannot read the questions. The question was the same in both cases, but it received different answers. Leaving that matter aside—[Laughter.]
Order. The House must come to order. We are using up valuable time.
It relates to precisely the same issue. Does the Prime Minister recollect saying on that very issue during that election campaign:
Why, then, has he imposed a higher national insurance burden on over 2 million low-paid people? Does he admit that, once again, he has broken his word, or was it just another of those throwaway lines delivered on a wet night somewhere in Dudley?"taxpayers with the lowest incomes will benefit most"?
The right hon. and learned Gentleman's suggestion that it might be wise to put that aside is an answer which many people will recall for some time. If he looks at what has happened, he will see that we have raised the threshold for the 20 per cent. band by £500 in the Budget and by a further £500 from next year. Most taxpayers in the lower rate band will gain more from the 20 per cent. lower rate than they will lose from the 1 per cent. increase in national insurance contributions.
Does the Prime Minister still not understand, as millions of low-paid people do, that putting I per cent. on national insurance for people who do not pay income tax is putting up the tax on their income? Why did he say on page 7 of the Conservative party election manifesto:
Was the whole manifesto written on a wet night somewhere in Dudley?"We have reduced the burden of national insurance on low earners"?
I must tell the right hon. and learned Gentleman that it did not sound any better the second time, so perhaps he should put that aside as well. He should look at what has happened, with the introduction of a 20 per cent. tax band and the raising of a 20 per cent. tax band, and I reiterate—as he clearly did not hear it the first time—that most taxpayers in the lower rate band gain more from the 20 per cent. rate than they lose from the I per cent. increase in national insurance contributions. In short—so that the right hon. and learned Gentleman clearly understands—they are better off under our plans than they ever would have been under his plans, which would have involved the largest increase in direct taxation ever seen this century.
Has my right hon. Friend had an opportunity to study the current issue of the journal of the Royal Society of Medicine? Is he aware that it includes a survey carried out by a distinguished doctor of general practice in 12 countries in Europe, north America and the far east in which he reaches the conclusion that British is best? Will my right hon. Friend confirm that, as we proceed with the implementation of the NHS reforms, that will continue to be the case?
The immediate answer to my hon. Friend is no, I have not seen that survey, but, as he has drawn it to my attention, I shall take the opportunity of looking at it. There has been a dramatic improvement both in the resources available to the health services and in the quality of health treatment provided in recent years by the people who work in the service. It is our intention that that should continue—[Interruption.]—and I am sorry if the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) thinks that it is nonsense that the people in the health service are providing a better service. I believe that they are.
Is it not the case that in the 17 or so years since the decision was taken to build THORP—the thermal oxide reprocessing plant—at Sellafield, the economics of THORP have collapsed, the risk of nuclear proliferation has increased, international opposition has hardened and the threshold of safe nuclear emissions has been substantially reduced? Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake that, before a decision is taken to put THORP into operation, the widest possible consultation and debate will be conducted on that dubious project?
THORP is a substantial engineering and export success for this country. It supports some 3,000 jobs and has £9 billion-worth of contracts, which is a powerful vote of confidence in the plant from people around the world who will be its customers. As the right hon. Gentleman may know, my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for the Environment and the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food are considering the inspectors' reports on the proposed new discharge authorisations for the site. The right hon. Gentleman will realise that it would be inappropriate for me to prejudge their considerations.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that visiting the House today is a very special group of 21 men who served this country in the Army, Navy and Royal Flying Corps during the great battles of the first world war? Does my right hon. Friend agree that all of us who live in freedom today owe everything we have to those gallant men and their comrades who died in that most terrible of all wars?
I agree with my hon. Friend. I have sent a message to those very welcome guests to the House today. I am sure they will be welcomed by everyone in the House.
Q2.
To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 17 June.
I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave some moments ago.
Given the widespread alarm among millions of constituents about the proposed imposition of value added tax on domestic fuel, which will result in an increased incidence of hypothermia and even more poverty among middle-income groups, will the Prime Minister urge his colleagues to reconsider this pernicious and indiscriminate form of indirect taxation? In so doing, he might just assist his albeit fragile, political future.
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his concern. We have set out a policy that we believe is correct and we have stated that we will take action to assist vulnerable groups. That assistance will be in place before the extra charges are introduced. The hon. Gentleman utterly fails to mention that the cost of fuel has been falling as a result of our policies, not rising astronomically as it did before we came to office.
Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is typically British for commentators and Opposition Members to talk British industry down, yet totally ignore the best manufacturing output figures for five years?
I think that my hon. Friend understates her case a little. They do not just talk Britain down—given the chance, they do it down and do it in. Opposition policies would impose an extra tax on jobs and would be no good for British industry. Raising employers costs and introducing the social charter would be no good for employment prospects or employers. The minimum wage would further damage job prospects. Yet again, the use of flying pickets would be legalised. [HON. MEMBERS: "Boring."] That is the Labour party's policy. Labour Members may regard my comments as boring, but people in work regard their policy as a job destruction programme.
Q3.
To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 17 June.
I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave some moments ago.
Will the Prime Minister join me in congratulating Mr. Pink on winning his case for unfair dismissal against the Stockport health authority? Does he agree that whistleblowers play a very important part in a democracy? Will he urge the Stockport health authority to reinstate Mr. Pink and ensure that resources are available to improve the staffing of the geriatric wards at the hospital in question?
I am not aware of the details of the case, but if justice has been done I am delighted.
Q4.
To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 17 June.
I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave some moments ago.
Following his Cabinet meeting this morning, will my right hon. Friend unequivocally assure the House that—despite the rumours and smears from the Labour party, which preys on the fears of the most vulnerable in our society—the national health service and welfare state always were, are, and for ever will be safe in Conservative hands?
As I indicated a moment or so ago, the health service has improved dramatically during recent years, partly as a result of the increased resources made available to it and partly as a result of the activities of the many dedicated people who work in it. I have no doubt that will continue to be the case in the future. [Interruption.] It is thriving.
Q5.
To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 17 June.
I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave some moments ago.
Has the Prime Minister given the President of the Board of Trade a list of the companies that have donated to the Conservative party since 1979? Will the Prime Minister confirm that if the President finds that they have not declared those donations in their accounts, they will all be repaid?
The hon. Gentleman must understand that British business supports the Conservative party because it believes that our policies are right for British business, the British future and British jobs. Perhaps it is because business understands and applies that test that precious little money from companies goes to the Labour party.
Would my right hon. Friend remember today that, over the past year, the wild and sometimes woolly Members of this House have said that the Government should intervene more directly in Yugoslavia? Will he accept the thanks of most sensible Members for all that he and the Government have done, on behalf not only of the United Kingdom but of the world, in not allowing such intervention to take place?
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. In my judgment, there is no doubt that it was right to assist with the humanitarian operation, and I believe that the activity of our troops has been widely admired, not just in this country but around the world. They have certainly done a magnificent job.
There are only two ways of settling the dispute. One is to put in hundreds of thousands of troops for an indefinite period—no one wise wants to do that, and no other country would be prepared to do it. The only alternative is to seek a diplomatic solution allied to the humanitarian aid that we and others have been providing. We still seek that diplomatic solution. I understand that Lord Owen and Mr. Stoltenberg had a useful meeting yesterday with the Presidents of Serbia and Croatia. They will continue their negotiations next week. Lord Owen will brief me on Saturday before I go to the European Council His determined efforts over recent months have done as much as those of any other individual to keep alive the prospect of a political settlement.Business Of The House
3.31 pm
Will the Leader of the House state the business for next week?
Yes, Madam. The business for next week will be as follows: MONDAY 21 JUNE—Conclusion of a debate on a Government motion to approve the defence estimates 1992 (Cm. 1981).
Motion on the Army, Air Force and Naval Discipline Acts (Continuance) Order. TUESDAY 22 JUNE—Opposition Day ( 14th allotted day). There will be a debate entitled "The Need for Openness on Funding of Political Parties and the Enforcement of Company Law on Declaration of Political Donations", on an Opposition motion. WEDNESDAY 23 JUNE—Remaining stages of the Agriculture Bill [Lords]. Motion on the Council Tax Limitation (Wales) (Maximum Amount) Order. THURSDAY 24 JUNE—Motion on the Northern Ireland Act 1974 (Interim Period Extension) Order. Motion on the Appropriation (No. 2) (Northern Ireland) Order. FRIDAY 25 JUNE—There will be a debate on the health and welfare of children on a motion for the Adjournment of the House. MONDAY 28 JUNE—Opposition Day (15th allotted day). Until about 7 o'clock, there will be a debate on a motion in the name of the Liberal Democrats, followed by a debate in the name of Plaid Cymru. The subjects have yet to be announced and, for all I know, to be chosen. The House will also wish to know that European Standing Committee A will meet on Wednesday 23 June at 10.30 am to consider European Community documents Nos. 8487/90 and 5902/93 relating to plant variety rights.[Wednesday 23 June:
European Standing Committee A—Relevant European Community documents: 8487/90, 5909/93 plant breeders' rights; relevant reports of the European Legislation Committee: HC 11-xxxiii (1989–90) and HC 79-xxx (1992–93 ).]
I am sure that the Leader of the House recalls that some considerable time ago an agreement was reached with the Procedure Committee that every effort would be made to have a debate in the House in Government time, preferably roughly every six months, before meetings of the European Council. The right hon. Gentleman will know that there is a meeting of the Council in Copenhagen this weekend, and although we recognise that the business of the House has been under some pressure, I hope that that agreement is not being breached and that we may have an undertaking that every effort will be made to arrange debates before these Council meetings so that the House can comment on developments in the European Community. I also hope that we will have a statement in the House following that meeting.
The Leader of the House will also know that hon. Members throughout the House are anxiously awaiting information and statements on assisted area status. I understand that some information may have been transmitted to the European Community. We are anxious for a statement in the House as soon as possible. The right hon. Gentleman will recall that I have asked on a number of occasions when we are likely to have a proper debate on the public expenditure White Paper that we would normally expect at some stage during the year. It would be most unfortunate, to put it mildly, if that debate were not held before the next public expenditure White Paper is announced in outline in the autumn. I hope that the Leader of the House will bear in mind our many requests on the shape of the public expenditure programme before it is hacked to pieces. That brings me to the other issue on which we would like a debate in Government time—the Government's plans for invalidity benefit. The Leader of the House will know that there is pressure for a debate in the House in Government time on the report of the Select Committee on Members' Interests, which has been around for a long time without being debated.For once, I shall take the hon. Lady's requests in their original order. I regret that it did not prove possible to have the six-monthly debate on European matters in advance of the Council meeting, although the House will acknowledge that it has not exactly been starved of opportunities to debate European matters recently. I shall be looking for a suitable opportunity for the debate in the near future—no doubt, in due course, the Opposition will decide to abstain. I expect that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will make a statement at the earliest convenient opportunity after the European Council meeting next week.
The position on assisted area status will be indicated in an answer this afternoon. The Government's proposals were submitted to the European Commission on 15 June, and the proposed new map will be published as soon as Commission approval has been received. Obviously, we want to get on with that as soon as possible, but I cannot give the exact timing at the moment. I note the right hon. Lady's request for a debate on the public expenditure White Paper, although I cannot add to what I have said on previous occasions. She is, of course, continuing to press me for a flow of Supply days, so I have to make some judgment of priorities as to which of her demands to meet. The right hon. Lady will certainly have noted what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said at Question Time on Tuesday about our plans for invalidity benefit. Against that background, she will be clear that there are no plans as such to be debated at the moment. The matter is being looked at in the way that my right hon. Friend explained. If and when it is appropriate to have a debate, of course I shall arrange one. Lastly, on the Select Committee on Members' Interests, I am making reasonably good progress towards the debate that the right hon. Lady and some of her hon. Friends would wish to have.Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Select Committee on Home Affairs is looking into the funding of political parties, that it is hearing evidence on the funding of political parties and that it will in due course be producing a report? The effect of the debate on Tuesday, which is frivolous in the extreme, will be to try to prejudge that report and unduly influence the Committee, which will be considering an extremely serious subject indeed.
Will my right hon. Friend perhaps prevail upon the Opposition not to waste good Supply days on frivolous matters, but to leave this matter to the Home Affairs Select Committee, which will then be able to debate the report? The motion is total nonsense from the Labour party.You will have noted—as I did, Madam Speaker—that, in effect, although that question was properly phrased to be directed at me, it was really directed to the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) and her right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Foster). I know they have heard it; I hope they will reflect on it. But you will understand, Madam Speaker, as will my hon. Friend, that, although my views coincide with his, I am not in a position to direct the Opposition about the way in which they choose to use their time.
First, I thank the Leader of the House for his accommodating, if slightly mischievous, announcement of the second of our small entitlement of Opposition days in ten days' time. I can assure him that he will be given the subject in due course.
Following the question of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Liberal Democrats to the Prime Minister, I put it to the Leader of the House that the Government must find time in the near future to debate any potential go-ahead for the THORP project, a subject that has not been debated in the House since 1978. That has the most far-reaching domestic and international implications, and it relates not only to Britain's economy but to our energy and environmental policies and to global matters of proliferation. May we have an undertaking of a debate on THORP before any go-ahead is announced by the Government?I reject out of hand any suggestion that I am ever mischievous. All I did was try, with some success I am glad to say, to raise a small smile on the hon. Gentleman's friendly face.
I cannot promise the hon. Gentleman a debate in the terms that he requests, nor add to the point that my right hon. Friend quite properly made to his right hon. Friend in the course of questions about the current position in which an inspector's report is being considered. But the obvious thought strikes me that, if the hon. Gentleman feels that strongly about it, I have just given him half a. day in which he could choose that subject for debate if he so wishes.rose—
Before we proceed further, I remind the House that I now want brisk questions and brisk answers so that I might call as many Members as possible. Many Members are standing today.
Thank you for calling me, Madam Speaker.
As the Government abolished the Greater London Council, the Inner London education authority and the metropolitan county councils, will the Leader of the House undertake to provide time for a debate in the near future in which Conservative Members might demonstrate and state our total opposition to regional government in any shape or form?Yes, we should like that.
I cannot make a promise in quite that form, but I shall bear my hon. Friend's request in mind. The only thing that really puts me off is that the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) would clearly speak.
We are happy to have a full day's debate on Northern Ireland next week, but will the Leader of the House bear in mind the fact that, although the report of the Examiner of Statutory Instruments has just been published, there has been a considerable gap in the examination of various statutory instruments in Northern Ireland because of the death of the previous holder of the post? Will the Leader of the House assure me that there will be a debate on that report, which might provide a peg on which to hang some requests for examination of those earlier instruments?
Will the right hon. Gentleman also tell the House what status is accorded by Her Majesty's Government to visits by the President of the Irish Republic to Northern Ireland? They seem to be billed as private visits, but whenever the President is—Order. The hon. Gentleman's last question does not relate to business questions. It has nothing whatever to do with the Leader of the House.
I would simply say that I imagine that, to a significant degree, the status depends on the basis of the visit. Leaving that aside—hastily, in view of your clear steer, Madam Speaker —I undertake to look into the point that the hon. Gentleman raised.
As a fellow Essex man, will my right hon. Friend consider giving the earliest consideration to a statement on regional unemployment figures so that it may become clear to people in the mid-Essex area that the fall in unemployment in Braintree and Chelmsford, which was announced today, was the largest fall in a single month in more than six years, with 362 individuals going back into work rather than being in the dole queues?
I shall bring that point and that welcome news, which I too noted, to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment if my hon. Friend promises not to call me an Essex man again: last time, for the first time in seven elections, I changed the wording of my election address from "is an Essex man" to "was born and brought up in Essex."
Is the Leader of the House aware that during the past week it was announced that Rufford—one of the pits in the east midlands, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr. Tipping)—will close by the end of this financial year, which is in direct contradiction to the statement and pledge that the President of the Board of Trade made to the House several times, because it was one of the 12 pits that were going to be left to be market-tested?
Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for the President of the Board of Trade to make a statement? Failing that, the Leader of the House should arrange for him to make a personal statement, as the previous Chancellor of the Exchequer did, because he deserves to be sacked for misleading the House and misleading the country.I had anticipated the hon. Gentleman, and I have already arranged for the President of the Board of Trade to be here to answer questions next Wednesday.
Can my right hon. Friend find some time next week for the House to discuss what pressure could be brought to bear on travel agents so that they disseminate information that they receive from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office properly, such as the warnings that holidaymakers should heed before they go to certain parts of the world? I am extremely concerned. My concern was highlighted by the programme "World in Action" on Monday and has certainly been borne out by the murder of many British holidaymakers throughout the world. The information exists, and holidaymakers need to get it; travel agents have it and they are not passing it on.
In the light of what he said, my hon. Friend's concern is understandable. The appropriate course is for me to bring his comments to the attention of my right hon. Friends for their consideration.
Apparently there is some monkey business under way as regards the Museums and Galleries Commission. When can we have a statement as to what plots are afoot as regards this matter?
I shall bring that matter to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for National Heritage, and I am sure that he will communicate with the hon. Gentleman if he has intelligence to impart about any problem.
My right hon. Friend will no doubt be aware of the encouraging statistics issued yesterday which show a record proportion of young people going on to further or higher education—an all-time record. May we have a debate so that we can discuss the impact of standards and compare the recent report by Ofsted, which showed that tests led to a significant improvement in teaching and learning environments in schools, with the comments made on last year's tests by the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mrs. Taylor), the shadow spokesman on education, who regarded them as totally worthless? That shows how far from reality she is on the matter.
I agree with the latter point, and also with the first point about the satisfaction we all feel about the great increase in the number of young people going on to further and higher education. As to the middle matter, my hon. Friend will be aware that the Education Bill is under consideration in another place. I am sure that there will be further opportunity for discussion there.
Has the Leader of the House had an opportunity to look at early-day motion 2138 about air pollution in London?
[That this House is deeply concerned at the appalling quality of air in London, particularly during hot and still weather; believes that the high incidence of bronchial illness and child asthma is related to this and that the major sourcesof polluted air are private cars; and therefore calls, for urgent Government action to improve public transport and reduce wasteful commuter motoring.] Can he give an undertaking that there will be an urgent and early debate on the need to restore democratically elected government to London so that the city's future can be properly planned, its transport infrastructure properly developed, the amount of commuter motoring reduced and air quality and the life of Londoners improved? Does he not think that it is a disgrace that this is the only capital city with no unified elected local authority?The answer to that is no. I understand that there is an opportunity to discuss the matters raised in the first part of the question in an Adjournment debate this evening.
Can the Leader of the House reassure us that there will be no repetition of the shambles that overtook the ministerial statements on Monday? You will recall, Madam Speaker, that the Secretary of State for Wales made a comprehensive statement about flooding devastation in Wales and that, after a long discussion, the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment attempted to make a statement, without warning, on the equal devastation and loss of life that has occurred in Cornwall and other parts of the west country. Can we be reassured that, in future weeks, there will not be such a difficulty and that we shall have a comprehensive statement of all the effects of flooding, what the Government intend to do and what the National Rivers Authority is doing about flood defence and flood warning systems?
On any occasion on which natural disasters or difficulties occur, some regard must necessarily be paid to the scale in determining whether or not it is appropriate to make a statement. The scale of the flooding in Wales exceeded that in most other parts of the country.
In the wake of the Prime Minister's meeting with the Taoiseach of the Irish Republic, does the Leader of the House agree that it is time that we had a full debate on the workings of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, which has been in place for eight years? In 1985, we were told that the agreements would produce peace, stability and reconciliation. Does the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge that all we had from the most recent meeting with the Taoiseach was a repetition of a harsh, aggressive and irredentist territorial claim?
This matter is for you, Madam Speaker, but I would be surprised if the full day of debating Northern Ireland on Thursday, 24 June—on some fairly wide-ranging motions—did not permit subject matter of that kind to be introduced.
Is the Leader of the House aware of the havoc that the internal market is wreaking on the national health service? Will he consider what is occurring at centres of excellence such as the Billericay burns unit, which I am sure the right hon. Gentleman knows very well? Since the internal market was introduced, the superb team at the unit only undertake emergency and urgent cases and not elective surgery, because the funds for that are not available. May we debate urgently centres of excellence and others, such as Killingbeck, which is having to close because there is insufficient money under that stupid, crazy system?
I do not accept the hon. Lady's description of what is occurring, but I will of course bring her observations to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health.
Has the Leader of the House read early-day motion 2175?
[That this House expresses concern that Home Office statistics show that 100,000 young people under 21 years were either convicted or cautioned for drunkenness in 1990; is alarmed that Department of Transport figures for 1989 indicate that about 25,000 injury accidents are associated with driving over the legal limit for alcohol and that overall 20–25 per cent. of road deaths occur in accidents where at least one driver is beyond the legal limit; condemns the marketing executives and administrators who have sold the England and Australian Cricket teams to breweries; and finds the use of beer advertisements on players and on grounds morally offensive and the subjugation of a once fine sport to such unscrupulous profiteering especially nauseating.] It highlights the potentially adverse effects of alcohol on young people, with 100,000 under-21s convicted or cautioned for drunkenness in 1990, and expresses opposition to the idea that the English and Australian cricket teams should be sold to the breweries for advertising purposes. Is it not time to stop that nauseating invasion of our screens by enforcing the BBC charter? It is not meant to broadcast advertisements and it is unfair, wrong and illegal for it to do so in that way —and offensive into the bargain.I am sure that the broadcasting authorities will take note of the hon. Gentleman's comments. It is worth noting that, thanks to significant efforts, road deaths involving alcohol more than halved in the last decade. The Department of Transport is launching a major television campaign against drinking and driving on 29 June.
Will the Leader of the House arrange a debate on opencast mining? Is he aware that my constituents are outraged by British Coal's proposals to opencast at Wintersett and North Featherstone—so ravaging what little countryside remains there—at the same time that British Coal is closing local productive pits?
The hon. Gentleman referred to "proposals". Presumably that means that there is scope for a considerable public inquiry before any decision is made. That would be the right approach for the hon. Gentleman to adopt.
Next Tuesday's debate could not be more relevant, given what has been happening with political funding. I was told by the Attorney-General, in reply to my questioning, that seven Tory Members made representations on behalf of Mr. Nadir. Could the four who remain unidentified be named in next Tuesday's debate, and reasons for their representations given on the Floor of the House? Those representations had no constituency purpose. How much more corruption are we to learn of from that case?
I understand why the hon. Gentleman feels it necessary to stir the issue in that way, but I doubt whether right hon. and hon. Members on either side of the House really think that it would be appropriate to make public every occasion on which constituency Members, quite properly, ask for information about a case following an approach from their constituents.
There is a widespread feeling of betrayal among people working in the mining industry in Nottinghamshire and, indeed, throughout the country. Does the Leader of the House understand that those people will not be reassured by the fact that the President of the Board of Trade will be here to answer questions on Wednesday? What they want to know is why, only last March, assurances were given about the future of pits. That was a political fix, which is now coming unstuck. The President of the Board of Trade should be here to apologise to us, and to those miners and their families.
As I have said, my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade will be here next week, although I cannot undertake to ensure that he will address the hon. Gentleman in the terms that he invites.
Has the Leader of the House read the story in the current issue of "Private Eye" which states that, between 1984 and 1990, Mr. Asil Nadir was entertained at No. 10 Downing street on six occasions as an honoured guest of Margaret Thatcher? Now that the right hon. Lady is away from here and it is safe to come out and talk about such matters, may we please have a debate about the contacts and the relationship between Margaret Thatcher and Asil Nadir?
If we can prove that there is something nasty there, perhaps she will also do a runner to northern Cyprus— which will undoubtedly bring smiles to the faces of some Conservative Members, and great delight to the nation as a whole.As it happens, I have not seen the piece in "Private Eye"; no doubt it will be studied carefully.
Let me point out that we are talking about a period during which, as far as I am aware, there was no particular reason to suspect the existence of the problems that have been indentified more recently. I have before me a note that probably relates to roughly the same period: it states that, at the time, both Polly Peck and Unipack Plastics Ltd. were giving money to such bodies as the Spastics Society, the Royal Opera House and the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. The atmosphere was quite different from that which now exists.At the Edinburgh conference of European Community Heads of State, it was decided to lift the veil of secrecy from some operations within the Council of Ministers by publishing the votes that took place at its meetings. I was told in a letter from the right hon. Member for Watford (Mr. Garel-Jones)—who was then a Minister— and in a parliamentary answer from the Prime Minister that all parliamentary answers relating to the Council's meetings and published in Hansard would include the details of votes, and give a nil record if no vote had taken place. However, that is not happening in the bulk of Departments. Will the Leader of the House ensure that it is done? It will undoubtedly assist us when European Community matters are debated in the House.
I am aware of the general move towards greater openness; indeed, that was one of the matters advanced by the British Government at the Birmingham council, and we are anxious for it to proceed further. I shall look into the specific points that the hon. Gentleman has raised.
Will the Leader of the House find time for a debate on the Government's proposals for changes in the affordability rules affecting housing associations? Only today, associations from the whole of the east midlands have been attempting to set out the clear consequences of the proposed change. They would raise the average rent to £85 a week, force low income earners out of housing association properties, terminate the flow of private finance into housing association building and bring about a huge increase in the housing benefit bill, which must be met by the country as a whole.
I cannot undertake to find time for such a debate in the immediate future, but I can and will undertake to bring the hon. Gentleman's anxieties to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security.
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to a recent report by the Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights in Northern Ireland, which severely criticises the way in which the people of Northern Ireland have been deprived of their civil and human rights because of the way in which the House deals with Northern Ireland legislation? Will the right hon. Gentleman, as custodian of the House in this regard, respond positively to the report in the near future?
I note the hon. Gentleman's request. There has not been deficient representation from Northern Ireland this afternoon, because three hon. Members have addressed me from the Bench on which the hon. Gentleman is sitting. The hon. Gentleman will have a further opportunity to raise those points during the debate next Thursday.
Does the Leader of the House realise that the anxiety about the thermal oxide reprocessing plant is not confined to one group, but is spread to every corner of the House and throughout the country and the world? That is shown by early-day motion 2174 and several others.
[That this House welcomes the 12 to 1 majority vote of the Paris Commission Convention on The Control of Pollution of the Seas, at its meeting in Berlin on 16th June, to adopt further measures including the application of best available techniques for the reduction or elimination of inputs of radioactive substances to the maritime area and its further agreement that a new or revised discharge authorisation for radioactive discharges from nuclear reprocessing installations should only be issued by national authorities if special consideration is given to: (a) information on the need for spent fuel reprocessing and on other options, (b) a full environmental impact assessment, (c) the demonstration that the planned discharges are based upon the use of the best available techniques and observe the precautionary principle and (d) a consultation with the Paris Commission on the basis of (a), (b) and (c) above. Deplores the refusal of the United Kingdom Government alone to support this decision; believes this ParisCommission decision will rightly have serious implications for Sellafield; and demands that this decision be, fully taken into account in the present considerations on Thorp.] Does he not realise that, if Thorp is commissioned, it will mean a ninefold increase in radioactive pollution in the Cumbrian area and will leave a legacy of nuclear waste that will be a nightmare and a burden to our grandchildren's grandchildren? During the debate in 1978, assurances were given by every party that this would not go on without a further debate. The rationale for Thorp was to use its production for the fast breeder reactor. That has been cancelled, and we must have a debate.Order. I ask hon. Members to co-operate in putting only one question, not their arguments at this time. We can then make some progress.
It will not surprise you, Madam Speaker, or the hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn) when I say that I have already commented on that this afternoon, as has my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. I cannot add to that now.
Will the Leader of the House accept that some Labour members of the Home Affairs Committee welcome the debate on Tuesday? Will he draw to the attention of the Minister leading for the Government our concern that there should be a reference to the responsibilities of Ministers when they go on foreign trips paid for by the taxpayer? The Committee has received evidence that the Prime Minister took time off from official functions in order to touch foreign business men for donations to the Tory party, and that other Ministers may have done the same.
I sometimes think that the propensity of Opposition Members to throw such allegations so easily about the Floor of the House is deplorable. I am conscious of the fact—there is practical evidence of it in jobs in various parts of the country—that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister's efforts to ensure that foreign business men do business with British companies, buy British products and create British jobs have been among the great successes of his visits.
The Leader of the House will be aware that the report of the Royal Commission on Criminal Justice is to be published in the near future. Can he give some indication of what preliminary arrangements have been made for its contents to come before the House? While making those arrangements, will he make representations to his appropriate right hon. Friends to ensure that the report includes consideration of the serious shortcomings revealed by the case against my constituents, Lisa and Michelle Taylor, who were freed by the Court of Appeal last Friday?
I cannot dictate to the royal Commission what matters it should choose to consider and comment upon. I am not in a position to say when the report will be published. In those circumstances, I can hardly make a statement about how it will be dealt with.
Is the Leader of the House aware of early day-motion 1874, which refers to Croatian army atrocities in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
[That this House recognises the horrific consequences of the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina and condemns the perpetration of massacres against civilians by all sides whether they be Serb, Croat or Muslim; is appalled by most recent reports of Croatian Army atrocities against Muslim civilians in Jablenica, Vitez, Jelinak, Armici, Zenica and many surrounding villages which have been witnessed by officers and men of the Cheshire Regiment and calls on Croat authorities to end,. forthwith, attacks against local civilians; calls for all regular Croatian Army troops to withdraw from Bosnia-Herzegovina; and simultaneously urges Her Majesty's Government to discuss, with other Members of the Security Council, an appropriate response by the international community.] In the light of the fact that The Daily Telegraph journalist, Patrick Bishop, and a British soldier serving with the UN force in Bosnia were wounded this morning by a remote-controlled landmine in the region of Travnik where Croatian soldiers are active, could we have a statement from a Minister about relations between this country and Croatia?I cannot undertake to ensure an immediate statement of that sort. I note the unhappy news that the hon. Gentleman has communicated about that incident. He will know that we fully support the Security Council's statement of 21 April and other things that have been done subsequently to protest to the President of Croatia about the renewed violence and call upon him to use his influence to stop it.
Has the Leader of the House caught sight of early-day motion 2171, signed by 169 Members across the House, which calls for the cleaning up of the former United Kingdom atomic test site at Maralinga in South Australia?
[That this House welcomes the visit of Mr. Gareth Evans, Australian Minister for Foreign Affairs and his Ministerial colleague, Mr. Simon Crean and their meetings with the Foreign Secretary and the Secretary of State for Defence; expresses the hope that these meetings will lead to an early agreement being reached between the Federal Government of Australia and Her Majesty's government concerning the final cleaning up of the former United Kingdom atomic test site at Maralinga, South Australia; reminds both governments that they are jointly responsible for this matter and that the Aboriginal people of the Maralinga-Tjarutja have pursued the objective of the restoration of their traditional lands in an honourable, dignified and peaceable way; and therefore urges the two governments to respond in like manner, thereby bringing this issue to a conclusion which meets the legitimate needs and interests of the Maralinga people.] Is it not the case that Gareth Evans, the Foreign Affairs Minister of the Federal Australian Government, has a meeting this afternoon with the Foreign Secretary at which they will discuss this very matter? May I impress on the Leader of the House the need for an early statement from our Foreign Secretary about it, as he will surely agree that the honourable and decent people of the MaralingaTjarutja require nothing less than that our Government and the Federal Government of Australia clean up their traditional tribal lands?The hon. Gentleman is right. The Australian Ministers for Foreign Affairs, for Primary Industries and for Energy are in this country and are meeting my right hon. Friend to discuss the matter. Indeed, there must be nearly as many members of the Australian Government in Britain as there are members of the British Government, judging by the numbers I have met—and very genial they and the members of the Australian Opposition are.
As for the subject that the hon. Gentleman has rasied, both Governments are keen to reach a mutually satisfactory solution as soon as possible, and my right hon. Friend will be reporting the outcome of the meeting to the House.Does the Leader of the House realise that it is ages since the Secretary of State for Scotland produced his White Paper on the options for water and sewage in Scotland and that, during the consultation period, representations against privatisation have been flooding in, including many from Scottish Conservatives?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in today's Scottish Daily Express, there is what looks like a Scottish Office inspired story, which reveals the form in which the Secretary of State is going to announce the future of Scottish water? As I know that you, Madam Speaker, are always concerned that statements should be made to the House, not in the newspapers in the form of leaks or in any other way, will the Leader of the House ask the Secretary of State for Scotland to make a statement to the House next week, or as soon as possible, on the outcome of the consultation on the future of Scottish water and sewage?When there is an outcome to the consultation, I am sure that my right hon. Friend will wish to make an appropriate statement to the House. However, at the moment, there is not, and I therefore cannot promise a statement next week. Nor can I promise a statement on every piece of speculation that appears in the Scottish or United Kingdom press.
Statement On The Defence Estimates
[Relevant documents: First Report of the Defence Committee on the Statement on the Defence Estimates 1992 of Session 1992–93, HC 218; Fifth Report of the Defence Committee on Army Commitments and Resources: the Government's Response and Army Manpower Statement of 3rd February 1993, HC 731 of Session 1992–93.]
4.7 pm
I beg to move,
That this House approves the Statement on the Defence Estimates 1992 contained in Cm. 1981. I very much welcome the fact that some Opposition Members below the Gangway have tabled their own amendment to the motion. I congratulate them on their clarity and consistency and I can only regard it as unfortunate that the official Opposition appear to have departed from their previous views without having anything to replace them. This is an opportunity for the House to discuss not only last year's White Paper on the defence estimates but a range of other defence issues. I begin by paying a personal tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Mr. Hamilton) who, until very recently, was a most distinguished Minister for the Armed Forces and who, for a number of years, made a valuable and important contribution to the well-being of our armed forces, something which I believe will stand the test of time. It is important that the House should have opportunities not only to debate these matters but to do so in a well-informed fashion. We shall soon be publishing the next defence estimates—the next White Paper—which are likely to be before the House in early July. I hope that it will be possible to debate that White Paper more quickly than it has been possible to debate this one, especially because, although I do not wish to anticipate the contents of that White Paper, I believe that the House, the armed forces and the country as a whole will find it a very informative document which will provide much information that has not before been made available to the House or the country and which will seek to present all the work of the Ministry of Defence in such a way as to make a substantial and important contribution to the proper discussion and understanding of the role of the armed forces, the tasks that they have to carry out, the way in which they meet their tasks, various elements of the forces' structure and how the very large resources available to the Ministry of Defence are used. I begin by reporting to the House the situation in Bosnia and the role of our armed forces in the former Yugoslavia at the present time. May I offer what I am sure are the congratulations of the House as a whole to those members of our armed forces who appeared in Her Majesty's honours list recently and who received well-deserved recognition for the work that they have been doing in that country. Those who received awards for gallantry and for exceptional leadership deserve to be especially proud of what has been achieved. The Bosnian Serb rejection of the peace plan, developed by Lord Owen and Mr. Vance and accepted by the Bosnian Croats and Muslims, has been a serious setback to the achievement of a negotiated political settlement, which offers the only prospect of an end to the conflict. Sooner or later, the Bosnian Serbs will have to come back to the negotiating table. Sanctions against Serbia will be applied vigorously until she brings an undoubted influence to bear to that end. In the meantime, in the absence of a settlement, fighting has worsened between Croats and Muslims in central Bosnia where the British battalion group is deployed as part of the United Nations protection force in its humanitarian task. As the House knows, that task is the provision of protective support for humanitarian aid convoys, under the auspices of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, and for convoys of released detainees under the auspices of the Red Cross. In the past week there have been serious incidents involving our forces. Last Thursday, 10 June, near Kiseljak, six British personnel were forced out of their Spartan vehicles at gun point and robbed of their weapons and their equipment. Last Friday morning, 11 June, near Novitravnik, British forces had to open fire in self-defence against Bosnian-Croat troops who engaged them while they were protecting a Muslim convoy. On 11 June a sentry at Vitez fired in self-defence at a sniper and there is reason to believe that the assailant was killed. Those are serious and disturbing incidents. The United Nations and British commanders will make whatever changes they consider necessary in their procedures and dispositions in the light of developments on the ground and will have the Government's full support. For their part, the Government have kept and are keeping the safety of our forces under constant review. Even before the incidents that I have described occurred, I announced on 10 June new measures that we were taking to ensure that we were ready to provide additional protection for our troops if that became necessary. For several months we have maintained contingency plans to provide additional protection for our forces should circumstances warrant it, through both maritime and land-based assets. To complement those existing arrangements, I announced that a number of Army units and individual officers and men were being placed at readiness to move to the former Yugoslavia at short notice to proyide a range of options should the need to protect our forces make that necessary. We have placed at readiness a range of capabilities that can be drawn on selectively according to the needs of the situation. No troops are being sent to the theatre at this stage, apart from a small number of personnel who will be required for ground-to-air command and control functions in connection with the provision of air support. HMS Ark Royal remains in the Adriatic sea with her Sea Harriers and Sea King helicopters embarked. We hope that it will not be necessary to deploy those capabilities, but the Government will not hesitate to reinforce our battalion group if required, either to enable it to continue with its current task or to assist with the withdrawal of United Nations forces if it came to that. As we have already made clear, the units that we have on standby would not be sent to undertake any new mandate. We are already a leading contributor to UNPROFOR's Bosnian command and there are more British soldiers in Bosnia than there are from other United Nations countries. It will be clear to the House that British troops are fully committed in fulfilling their current humanitarian task. The provision of additional forces to enable the safe areas concept in Security Council resolution 836 must be a matter for other nations. We very much hope that those resources will be forthcoming. The safe areas concept is part of the joint action programme agreed between the United Kingdom, the United States, France, Russia and Spain in Washington on 22 May. Implementing the concept is an important immediate step to help stabilise the situation on the ground, relieve suffering and create an improved climate for further work to achieve a negotiated settlement. Neither Britain nor the other co-sponsors of the resolution regards safe areas as a permanent solution or an end in themselves.Even as we debate the matter, at least one of those safe areas, Gorazde, is being subjected to continued aggression by Serbia. My right hon. and learned Friend mentioned Croatia and the Muslims. Will he emphasise the fact that great brutality is still being perpetrated by the Serbs in Bosnia?
I have to confirm that fact. There have been incidents of brutality involving all communities in this ghastly conflict. I acknowledge my hon. Friend's comment that Serbia has a particular responsibility and has been involved in a number of the most serious incidents.
Safe areas are a temporary measure to help to create a climate in which renewed efforts to help a lasting and equitable peace can make progress, building on the work of Lord Owen and Mr. Vance. The Security Council resolution has given UNPROFOR a mandate in six areas: to deter attacks; to monitor the ceasefire; to promote the withdrawal of military or paramilitary units other than Bosnian Government units; and to occupy some key points on the ground in addition to participating in the delivery of humanitarian relief. The resolution authorises member states acting nationally or through regional organisations or arrange-ments to use air power in support of UNPROFOR carrying out its mandate in and around the six designated safe areas. NATO has agreed to take on the task in support of, and in close co-ordination with, the UN as an extension of its current operations to enforce the no-fly zone. I announced on 10 June that the Government have offered a squadron of Royal Air Force Jaguar aircraft to participate in such an operation. We are closely in touch with NATO about the detailed arrangements for the operation and I shall keep the House informed. The House will want to join me in paying tribute to the courage and professionalism of all our forces involved in operations in and around the former Yugoslavia. We are well aware of the impressive scope of those operations. Royal Navy ships and Royal Air Force aircraft are taking part in operations to enforce sanctions against Serbia and the arms embargo against the whole former Yugoslavia and to enforce the no-fly zone in Bosnia.How effective is the increased effort to tighten sanctions proving to be? That is germane to the question whether there should be more or less military intervention.
Sanctions are having a very considerable effect on the Serbian economy. President Milosevic sees the effect of sanctions as very damaging to the economic prospects of the country. There is massive inflation, vast unemployment and a huge fall in manufacturing production. That is, in part, why Mr. Milosevic sought to persuade the Bosnian Serbs to support the Owen-Vance proposals. The sanctions will continue until we can be satisfied that sufficient progress has been made.
The battalion group that has been involved in our humanitarian operations has been very successful and can claim to have been responsible for the saving of many tens of thousands of lives. Those who advocate the lifting of the arms embargo in favour of the Muslims or intervention against one party or the other must realise that to do so would bring the humanitarian operation to an end. I repeat, however, that we shall not hesitate to take whatever steps may be necessary for the safety of our forces and the House can rest assured that this is, and will continue to be, our paramount consideration. The possible participation of South Africa in the anniversary celebrations of the Royal Air Force has given rise to some interest in the House and in another place. I am pleased to announce that South Africa will be invited by the Royal Air Force benevolent fund to send a transport plane to attend the Fairford international air tattoo. South Africa's association with the Royal Air Force is long-standing. Indeed, the RAF's existence as a separate service owes much to Field Marshal Smuts. We have, therefore, concluded that this association should be marked with the participation of a non-combat plane in the air tattoo to mark the RAF's 75th anniversary year.Does the Secretary of State think it entirely appropriate to have a South African military presence in this country when South African armed units are attacking Government positions in Angola in defiance of a United Nations resolution and of the clearly expressed wish of the Angolan people for peace?
The involvement of the South African navy in the recent services relating to the battle of the Atlantic was warmly welcomed by all shades of opinion in South Africa, including the people most representative of black opinion. We are now in a new situation and it is right and proper for us to respond in the way that I have described.
I do not wish to expand much further on the point, but just to establish the facts clearly for the record, during the second world war a vast number of South Africans volunteered, against the wishes of some of the more Boer elements in South Africa, to come here and many lost their lives on behalf of this country. The whole point of the commemoration is that it is about those people, not about what may be going on politically today.
That is absolutely correct. We can never forget the contribution made by those brave South Africans, many of whom sacrificed their lives. When we are commemorating the history of the Royal Air Force it is right and proper that that contribution should be taken into account. As my hon. Friend says, that does not represent a political comment on any contemporary difficulties that may be continuing in South Africa today.
We are all conscious of the fact that the armed forces are going through one of the most radical reorganisations since 1945 and I pay tribute to the people, both civilians and members of the armed forces, who are having to supervise a difficult period of transition and who are doing so with the customary spirit and dedication that we expect to see in the armed forces. I note that some Opposition Members, although not Front-Bench Members, have tabled an amendment calling for a major reduction in our defence expenditure, echoing the calls of the Labour party conference for defence expenditure to be drastically pruned. When those hon. Members say that our defence expenditure should be reduced to the level of that in other European countries, perhaps they have not fully examined what the other countries with which one might most easily compare the United Kingdom spend on defence. For example, when one compares the defence expenditure of the United Kingdom with that of France and Germany one finds an almost uncanny similarity in the total sums made available. Expressed in pounds sterling, United Kingdom defence expenditure in 1992 was about £24·4 billion; that of France was £25·8 billion; and that of Germany almost exactly £24 billion. An almost identical amount was being spent by those three major countries. Furthermore, the United Kingdom has some special responsibilities, such as our commitment to Northern Ireland and our continuing obligations to defend our dependent territories. The responsibilities associated with our being a nuclear power —a factor that we share with France—also have to be taken fully into account. We have also seen a dramatic improvement in the ability of the United Nations to meet various international challenges and it is well worth remembering the increased contribution that the United Nations is making to easing some of the problems of security and peacemaking in various parts of the world. Since January last year, when only 12,000 United Nations forces were involved in various operations around the world, the figure has increased so that today about 60,000 United Nations forces are engaged in United Nations operations. That increase has profound implications and it is now time for the United Nations to consider whether at the heart of its activity it has sufficient military advice and personnel to assist the Secretary-General to develop and co-ordinate the many military operations with which the organisation is associated. Increasing attention needs to be given to that question. It is also important to ensure that countries invited to contribute to United Nations operations should not be expected to be committed to supporting the United Nations in any particular theatre for as long as support may be required. Sometimes that may involve a period of many years—for example, we have now been in Cyprus for more than 25 years—and it is not realistic to expect the small number of countries which provide the bulk of United Nations support to give such an open-ended commitment on an ongoing basis. Much more sensible is the principle of rotation, as that enables another country to be brought in for a period of time, thereby helping to spread the burden in a realistic and sensible way. I want today to make some very important comments with regard to the use of our reserve forces, because I believe that they have a crucial contribution to make and I know that they are a matter of considerable interest to many hon. Members. I know that the House will join me in paying tribute to the contribution that has been made over the years by members of our reserve forces. The willingness of men and women to give up their spare time to serve the Crown has been warmly welcomed and on many occasions has proved to be vital. In March 1992 we issued an open Government document on the future of Britain's reserve forces which set out proposals for the more flexible use of reserves, permitting their use in a wide range of types of operation. That document proposed legislation in the 1994–95 Session and we have that objective firmly in mind. Since that document was issued, the change in the international situation has provided us with the opportunity to introduce new roles for the reserves. At the same time it has become clear that standing reserve forces are no longer required for certain current roles. Against that background we have been looking in detail at the structure of the reserves of all three forces. Today I shall be announcing the results of our detailed deliberations on the future of the Navy's reserves and our latest proposals for the RAF reserves. We are also re-examining the operational requirement for the Army's reserves and hence the size and shape of the Territorial Army. I shall be making a further announcement on that later in the year. Before I come to the detail of our proposals on the Royal Navy and the RAF, there are a number of basic principles which I should set down and which underpin our thinking on all three services. First, I must place on record my personal commitment to the future of our reserve forces. Reserves in all three services will play a continuing crucial role in providing support to their regular colleagues. Secondly, I believe that we should bring up to date the roles of the reserves where they are no longer relevant to our changing defence needs. It is in no one's interest, not least that of the reservists themselves, that they should be expected to carry out roles which, although vital in the past, no longer require standing forces. That would breed frustration and disillusion. Thirdly, and most important of all, I believe that the time has come to make arrangements to deploy reserves much more widely in operational roles in peacetime. I regard this point as particularly important. In the past, with only a few exceptions, we have called out reservists only at times of heightened tension or in war. We are now moving to a world where the possibility of major confrontation is less than it has been for many years, but where the demands placed on our forces for peacekeeping and related tasks have never been greater. Furthermore, I know of the frustration felt by many reservists that their skills were not used during the Gulf war, when their American counterparts were deployed in such large numbers. Today, hundreds of Canadian volunteer reserves are serving in Cyprus, Cambodia and Somalia; and in the former Yugoslavia Canadians are joined by hundreds of Danish reserves. I can see no reason why we, too, should not plan to deploy our reservists in peacetime. I am therefore looking in detail at the possibilities, particularly as we consider the proposed new reserve forces legislation. One specific idea is that we might use volunteers from the TA to form units or sub-units to contribute on a planned basis to operational commitments undertaken by the regular Army. The feasibility of attaching a composite TA infantry company composed of volunteers to regular units undergoing United Nations tours is being examined, with a view to running a pilot scheme in late 1994. I shall say more about this when I come to report on the future of the Territorial Army later in the year. I regard it as a very significant and welcome development. I want similar opportunities to be available to naval and air force reservists. I believe that in this way we shall ensure that the reserves are given more relevant, more important and more fulfilling jobs to do and that the link between reserves and regular forces will be strengthened thereby.I am sure that the announcement that we have just heard about the enhanced role and status of the Territorial Army service overseas will be warmly welcomed on both sides of the House. Can my right hon. and learned Friend reassure the House that, in the further consideration that he is giving to the role of the TA, he will give consideration to the concept of ever-readies, which has often been advanced in the House, so that we can see across the broad stream of activity the TA playing an even greater role in helping to sustain our armed forces?
I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. Any use of the reserves for operational roles in peacetime must be based on the fact that they would be volunteers —they would have made it clear that they were keen to be used for such a role if it should become available. Over the next few months, we will be working on the detailed way in which the objectives will be translated into specific structures to bring that about.
I come to the detailed proposals for the future of the Royal Naval Reserve. The proposals to which I am about to refer are, of course, subject to consultation. No final decisions will be taken until the process is complete. First, I should make it clear that we have no plans for changes to the Navy's ex-regular reserves, other than to match the greater opportunities for women within the Royal Navy to the same reserve liability as their male colleagues. Currently numbering some 24,000, those ex-regulars would, if necessary, provide the great bulk of reinforcement to the Royal Navy. Each year, some 2,000 highly trained personnel leave the Royal Navy and provide a readily usable pool of ex-regular reserves. Any degradation of their skills can be recovered through refresher training. For the naval volunteer reserves, the proposals are the culmination of studies that were announced to the House by my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell on 24 July 1991. The main aim of those studies was to achieve closer integration of the Royal Naval Reserve with the operational activities of the Royal Navy. As hon. Members know, the Royal Navy's volunteer reserve forces comprise the Royal Marine Reserve, the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Naval Auxiliary Service. The principal role of the Royal Marine Reserve is to provide training reinforcements to bring the marine commandos to full war strength on mobilisation. That is an important and continuing role. We have no current plans for changes to the Royal Marine Reserve. Two of the major roles of the naval volunteer reserves during the cold war have been the defence of ports and anchorages and the manning of the Naval Control of Shipping organisation. Those tasks have been undertaken jointly by the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Naval Auxiliary Service. The Royal Navy has reviewed the continuing need for those tasks and concluded that the scale and immediacy of a perceived threat to the western alliance has reduced to such an extent that it is no longer sensible to earmark discrete forces for them. In the extreme circumstances of a rise in tension and a direct threat to this country, there will be sufficient time to provide such forces by an appropriate expansion, if necessary, of the Royal Naval Reserve or regeneration of the ex-regular reserves. The end of that requirement removes the need for 710 Royal Naval Reserve personnel and all but 135 of the Royal Naval Auxiliary Service ratings. After careful study, we have concluded that there are no other roles that would he suitable for the RNXS and that such a service of 135 would be too small to he viable. Accordingly, and with considerable regret, we have concluded that the RNXS, which came into being only in 1962, should be disbanded and its training units closed. In making those proposals, I pay tribute to the loyalty and dedication of members of the RNXS over the years—this cannot be over-emphasised. However, I know that the RNXS would not wish to carry on with tasks that the tide of history has left behind. There will be an opportunity for up to 135 RNXS personnel with suitable skills in Naval Control of Shipping to join the Royal Naval Reserve to provide a capability for possible short-notice deployment overseas. We have considered the impact on the reserves of developing technology. Nowhere is that more apparent than in the field of mine counter-measures. Our River class of minesweepers fleet, which provides the basis of the current Royal Naval Reserve seagoing role, was designed to counter deep-moored mines as well as a specific Soviet threat. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, that mine threat no longer exists. The minesweepers fleet has no other mine counter-measures capability and has been overtaken by advances in other aspects of mine counter-measure warfare and technology. Accordingly, we propose to withdraw those vessels from this role and the Royal Naval Reserve. The task of deep-water mine counter-measures will be assumed by our modern mine counter-measure vessels such as the Sandown class. Such modern vessels are highly technical and require the crew to be at a high state of training readiness to be prepared to meet their operational commitments. It would not be possible fully to man the vessels with Royal Naval Reserves. However, under our new proposals, members of the Royal Naval Reserve will be able to serve on these vessels.I follow the argument of my right hon. and learned Friend and accept the logic of what he says about the River class minesweepers. However, the next step in his chain of logic would be to confirm that there will be further orders for Sandown class minehunters. Does he accept that the need for mine counter-measure vessels has not diminished worldwide and, indeed, that the kind of threat facing us in the so-called new world order requires mine-hunting capacity? Will he confirm that the orders intended for later this year will be forthcoming?
I thank my hon. Friend for his understanding approach to the reasons that have led to this decision. We expect to go out to tender shortly in respect of the Sandown class minehunters. We intend to ensure that they will be available as soon as they are operationally necessary. I hope that that reassures him.
Both sides of the House will welcome the timely decision that the Secretary of State has just announced in response to changing world circumstances. Will he now tell us what change he will make to our nuclear capability in response to the changing world situation? Does it make any sense to continue as we are doing and not only retain our present nuclear weapons, but increase their size, numbers, range and power?
I am not sure that that is relevant to the role of the naval reserves, but, as the hon. Gentleman intervened to ask the question, I remind him that we have already announced the ending of all nuclear artillery, the use of Lance missiles and the use of tactical weapons on naval vessels.
What about Trident?
We are committed to Trident and rightly so because it is based on our perception of what is the minimum deterrent required to ensure the protection of the United Kingdom. We have no intention of departing from that policy.
rose—
If I may, I shall return to dealing with the Royal Naval Reserve.
The Government fully accept that serving in Royal Navy ships lies at the heart of the Royal Naval Reserve, underpinning its ethos and recruiting. I am happy to announce that this role will be developed so that it encompasses all types of Royal Navy ship. We are proposing that a dedicated seagoing branch of some 500 personnel be set up, training in all types of Royal Navy ships, not just mine counter-measure vessels, and employed at sea wherever appropriate, as an integral part of the fleet. Additionally, smaller numbers of Royal Navy Reserves will assist in the logistics area, in submarine operations management and on aircraft maintenance. In future, Royal Naval Reserve training will be more closely sponsored by the appropriate Royal Navy organisation. The net effect of these changing roles is that the Royal Naval Reserve will reduce from 4,700 to about 3,500. Eleven units will close, but a new unit based in HMS Bristol, the harbour training ship at Portsmouth, would be created which would offer the opportunity for RNR personnel from HMS Sussex, HMS Wessex and HMS Southwick to transfer. In future, 13 RNR units, to be retitled "Reserve Centres", will be sited throughout the United Kingdom. We will try to find alternative employment in the Ministry of Defence or other Government Departments for some 200 civilian em-ployees, some part-time, who will be affected, but this may not always be possible.I appreciate what my right hon. and learned Friend has said today. It is important for the Royal Naval Reserve to have an active role rather than one, of which I had experience, in the naval control of shipping. Can he say something about HMS President, which has been an important landmark in the City and a good recruiting and training centre? Will that unit be retained?
I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. The opportunity for members of the Royal Naval Reserve to train with the Royal Navy on all types of warship at sea is an important step forward and will be widely welcomed. I cannot give my hon. Friend an immediate answer to his question, but my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence Procurement, who will reply, will certainly respond to that point in due course.
I turn to our proposals for the Royal Auxiliary Air Force. Again, the end of the cold war and the manifestly reduced threat to the United Kingdom has a significant impact, particularly in relation to the direct threat to our airfields. Accordingly, we have concluded that it is no longer necessary to retain No. 1339 Wing, equipped with Oerlikon anti-aircraft guns and Skyguard radars to protect RAF Waddington and RAF Coningsby. As hon. Members will know, our proposals under "Options for Change" will lead to the cessation of flying at RAF Honington. The Royal Air Force Regiment depot will move to that station from RAF Catterick. There is, therefore, no longer a requirement for the wartime specialist ground defence currently provided by No. 2623 (East Anglian) Squadron Royal Auxiliary Air Force Regiment. Notwithstanding the fine service that those units have given over the years, they no longer meet a defence need. We have also reviewed our previous plans to expand the Royal Auxiliary Air Force defence force flights. Again. circumstances have changed so radically that it would be unwise to proceed with that expansion before the results of the service's wide-ranging review of its long-term requirements are known. While those changes represent reductions in the auxiliary air force, I am delighted also to announce our proposals for the Royal Auxiliary Air Force to take on a new role, with auxiliaries filling about half the posts in two regular squadrons of the Rapier air-defence Missile force. Recruiting is expected to begin next year in the areas around RAF Leuchars and RAF Leeming and the new units should be complete by 1997. To simplify call-out procedures, which will require the introduction of the new legislation I mentioned earlier, we propose that that part of the Royal Air Force volunteer reserve which has a war role should be amalgamated with the Royal Auxiliary Air Force, producing a more streamlined organisation for war. That would not affect the Royal Air Force volunteer reserve training posts associated with the air cadet organisations and the university air squadrons. Taken together, those proposals will lead to a net reduction of about 180 auxiliary air force posts. That is about 10 per cent. of the current strength of the RAF reserves. The naval and air force proposals that I have announced will be of interest to a great number of hon. Members and to many people throughout the country. Accordingly, I have set out the proposals in some detail in consultative documents which I have placed in the Libraries of both Houses and which are also being sent to organisations known to have an interest. My hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces and I have written to those hon. Members whose constituencies are affected. Further copies of the documents are available in the Vote Office.Bearing in mind the fact that this is the 75th anniversary of the establishment of the Royal Air Force, may I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to join me in congratulating Dowty Aerospace Propellers Ltd., for which many of my constituents work, on being selected to supply high technology and all composite propellers to the Lockheed Corporation? I understand that the Dowty propeller will equip the C130-J Hercules aircraft and that the order run may be about 500 aircraft sets, worth about £150 million. Does he agree that that is a great boost for British industry and shows that we are still a great engineering nation?
I am glad of this opportunity to congratulate Dowty on that success, which is a tribute to the excellence of our aerospace industry. As my hon. Friend will know, the Hercules C130-J is a candidate to replace our existing Hercules aircraft, which have given valuable service for over 25 years.
The proposals that I have announced today will be subject to consultation with the trade unions where civilian employment is affected. We shall continue to liaise closely with the territorial, auxiliary and volunteer reserve associations and the national employers liaison committee. The consultation period will run until 30 July. Thereafter, having considered any and all comments received, we will announce a decision on the proposals in due course. We are living in a time of change, but I know that the Territorial Army as well as the naval and air force reserves will welcome our intent to use them more fully for operational roles in peacetime. This represents an historic change and is entirely appropriate to the new international situation.I am interested to hear my right hon. and learned Friend's remarks about the reserves. He seems to be announcing reductions in the Royal Naval Reserve and the Royal Air Force Auxiliary as a positive step which will enable the people concerned to take part in more regular activities. I put it to him that by manning Rapier squadrons half with reservists, those squadrons are likely to be undermanned because, needless to say, in many cases the reservists will have full-time civilian jobs.
I assure my hon. Friend that it will be done in such a way as to ensure that the operational requirements of the Royal Air Force are fully met. It would be irresponsible to do otherwise. It is inevitable that there will be some reduction in the size of the Naval and Royal Air Force auxiliary services and reserves if certain of their basic roles are no longer required.
We have approached the matter from the point of view of whether there is a continuing need for a particular function. I do not think anyone would argue that, for example, naval control of shipping or the defence of ports and anchorages requires a dedicated force in the circumstances that we now face. That is the approach that we have adopted. Wherever we have identified new roles that make sense and are relevant to the needs of the Royal Air Force or the Royal Navy, we have been very willing to utilise those roles for such purposes.
Dealing specifically with the Royal Auxiliary Air Force and bearing in mind the increased role that Rapier squadrons are likely to have overseas as a result of the end of the cold war and the sort of peacekeeping operations that may have to be backed up by air defence or strike attack aircraft, may I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to say how those reservists will be able to go overseas with their squadrons in future to fulfil that role?
Reservists who are used overseas—this relates to my earlier remarks—will be volunteers. It will be for those who are willing, when they join the reserves, to be considered for such operational roles overseas to indicate that willingness and to be attached, I would expect, to units that may be used for that purpose. Then, should the circumstances so arise, they would be available. In broad terms, that is the way in which it will operate.
We have much work to do on that concept because this is the first time that we have considered using reserves, although many other countries do so. We shall be using the time in the coming months to prepare the necessary legislation and the pilot scheme that I said would be introduced in 1994, and translate this firm proposal into its specific procedural and other details, which will then take effect. I believe that it will be warmly welcomed.We have a clear lesson to learn from the Gulf war—clear at least to anybody who knows territorial soldiers, and I served with the TA for 13 years. Our former hon. Friend Neil Thorne, who represented Ilford, South, often raised the point in the House. It is that territorial soldiers should never be asked to volunteer twice. Calling for volunteers puts men, their employers and sometimes their families in an impossible position. Either a unit should be called out or it should not. Calling for volunteers places terrible stress on people. That is why the TA does not believe the document and is not happy with its content. It does not see it as a suitable way forward for using reservists in peacetime.
I would not dissent from some of the points that my hon. Friend makes, but he knows as well as I do that the TA has expressed a desire to be used in an operational role in peacetime. He knows it because he has urged that course on me on numerous occasions. What he and others who share that aspiration, which the Government endorse, can do is to help construct the precise structure which will enable that aspiration to be translated into practice. That is what we are seeking to do and I believe. that it can be done effectively.
Does my right hon. and learned Friend also accept that it is a complete travesty to say that all members of the TA are employed by large companies? That is not the position. They are often self-employed and sometimes they are unemployed. In those circumstances, they are grateful for the opportunity to serve. So it is nonsense to say that they will be withdrawn from their companies or that a disturbance will be created.
I accept that, and I am conscious of the fact that whenever I have visited TA units, the desire to be used in an operational role has been the single, most repeated request made to me. I suspect that hon. Members on both sides have often had that request put to them, for understandable reasons.
I fear that as more reserve forces are brought in as part of a wider scheme, people will feel that their jobs will be in jeopardy because of the view of their employers. Will the Government remove from the unemployment figures the unemployed who volunteer for the reserve forces?
That is among the sillier suggestions that I have heard for some time. The answer to the hon. Gentleman's underlying point is that we must have close liaison with the national employers liaison committee, which represents the interests of employers who have a commitment to assisting the reserves. We shall be working closely with that body.