Skip to main content

Commons Chamber

Volume 264: debated on Monday 16 October 1995

The text on this page has been created from Hansard archive content, it may contain typographical errors.

House Of Commons

Monday 16 October 1995

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

Prayers

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Before we proceed to questions, hon. Members will wish to know that it is intended that tributes will be paid to the late Lord Home of the Hirsel immediately after Question Time.

Oral Answers To Questions

National Heritage

Regional Orchestras

1.

To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage if she will make a statement on her policies concerning regional orchestras. [35898]

The Arts Council is currently responsible for formulating policy on regional orchestras. Following a consultation process undertaken in association with the BBC, the Arts Council recently published its orchestral strategy document, setting out the council's goals for orchestral activity over the next 10 years.

May I warn the Minister that when the Department of the Environment cuts its grants to local councils, they then cut their grants to regional orchestras? Does he know, for example, that on Merseyside one council has ceased to provide grant and another has halved its grant to the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic orchestra? Does he agree that revenue support is crucial for effectiveness in regional orchestras' futures? Does he also agree that the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic is a world-class orchestra with a charismatic maestro and is really delivering the goods?

Yes, it is a wonderful orchestra. The hon. Gentleman may recall that I had the privilege of hearing it give a stunning performance in May, through the kindness and courtesy of the hon. Gentleman and his wife. Its new chief executive, Mr. Anthony Lewis-Crosby, is also doing a marvellous job.

As for the hon. Gentleman's point about local government, Liverpool council gives the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic but £80,000 a year while Manchester gives the Halle £500,000 and Birmingham gives £1 million to the City of Birmingham symphony orchestra. It might be a good thing if Liverpool gave a little more than £80,000 to such a wonderful orchestra.

Is my hon. Friend aware that regional youth orchestras are particularly vulnerable to cuts in local authority support? Does he agree that such orchestras are an important part of the infrastructure of music in this country, as they provide many of the very talented musicians of the future? Will he examine that issue and ensure that the existence of the excellent regional youth orchestra network is not compromised?

My hon. Friend makes an important point: youth orchestras are of exceptional importance. My hon. Friend will be glad to know that this year the Arts Council is spending more on music than it has ever spent before—some £44 million—but I shall certainly draw his remarks to the council's attention.

National Lottery

3.

To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what plans she now has for future allocation of lottery funds. [35900]

Parliament decided that each of the five good causes should benefit equally from the proceeds of the national lottery. I see no reason to change this at present.

Does the Secretary of State understand that almost the entire British public at every level consider that the way in which the Government have organised this expenditure of public funds is a public disgrace? Will she see whether there are other ways in which other people's money could be spent which they would find acceptable, whatever the Government may think?

The hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware that the way in which the funds were distributed—through the five independent distribution bodies—was debated carefully in the House. The fact is that the lottery has been the most remarkable success: it has raised more money for good causes than anyone expected. I am sure that, like me, the hon. and learned Gentleman looks forward to the caring charities making their awards later this month.

As the lottery is giving widespread pleasure and excitement to large numbers of people while raising massive new sums for thousands upon thousands of good causes and also producing some useful revenue for the Government, is it not time that the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner) stopped carping and complaining and gave the Government credit for a brilliant national achievement?

I totally endorse my hon. Friend's comments. Of course it is characteristic of the Labour party that it is unable to welcome such a formidable success. The hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner), who asked the question, failed to recognise that in Leicester the lawn tennis club, the Haymarket theatre, Thurmaston parish council, Leicester rowing club and Loxton leisure services all received lottery money. It is characteristic of the Opposition to look for the cloud rather than the silver lining.

Is it not absurd that major arts organisations in Scotland such as Scottish Opera and Glasgow Citizens Theatre should face a major funding crisis at a time when so much money is coming into the lottery and is available to the arts? Is it not time that the rules on funding for the arts were changed so that at least some revenue spending as well as capital spending can be funded?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware that already in Scotland the Scottish Arts Council has made 66 grants totalling almost £6 million. I agree that overall, in the country as a whole, the figures are 462 grants and £190 million. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware that I have been having discussions with the chairman of the Arts Council as to whether there are ways in which, as the lottery money unfolds, it would make sense to modify the rules. However, nobody should underestimate the phenomenal contribution to the arts as a result of this very successful lottery.

Does my right hon. Friend not feel ashamed of the way in which, in the media today, she tried to defend the allocation of £21 million to Sadler's Wells, bearing in mind that two medical charities in which I am involved have got nothing? Does she agree that the best thing she could do is to say to the Chancellor, "If you want to make public expenditure cuts, close my Department and the Arts Council and everything that goes with it"?

I have been looking forward to debating this matter with my hon. Friend and I hope that he will come on a number of visits with me. I was recently at Sadler's Wells watching some of the youngsters rehearsing ballet and I thought particularly of my hon. Friend and wondered whether he would do me the honour of coming with me on such occasions. The constituency Member, the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith), may wish to debate with my hon. Friend some of the detail involved in the prospects for inner-city regeneration and the popularity of ballet, to which some 2.9 million people went last year.

I share my hon. Friend's wish that medical charities should be supported, and when the Caring Charities Board starts to make its announcements later in the month I hope, like my hon. Friend, that medical charities will have a part to play.

Does the Secretary of State realise that Camelot, the operator of the lottery, is currently taking 1 per cent. as pure profit and that that percentage will inevitably rise as its start-up costs diminish? That means, does it not, that Camelot's profit for this year alone will stand at some £50 million? Would it not be far better for the operation of the lottery to be put on a not-for-profit basis, with the money saved going to charities whose fund raising is currently suffering grievously?

Labour Members never learn and never change. They have this ideological hostility to any organisation ever making a profit. I commend to the House today's report by Peter Davis of Oflot in which he further discusses the award of the operating licence to Camelot. That was commended by no less a body than the National Audit Office. Writing of Camelot, Mr. Davis said that it

"offered the greatest contribution to the good causes … and retained the lowest percentage of turnover to cover its operating costs and profits."
The Labour party threatens to undermine the good that is going to good causes because of its ideological opposition to anybody ever making a profit.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that when the distribution of lottery money was debated in the House there was virtually no opposition to the present system? Will she try to ensure that in future the charities board gets a better record and reports more regularly, and that all the announcements by the various grant-making bodies are co-ordinated? Would that not reduce much of the current criticism?

I appreciate my hon. Friend's reminding me that those matters were debated thoroughly by the House, and the independence of the distributing bodies was emphasised by both sides. We are now reaching the stage at which the flow of good announcements is such that everyone is having constantly to amend the figures: 1,432 projects have now received help to the tune of £545 million. My hon. Friend is right to say that the Caring Charities Board has had to work hard to establish procedures for the distribution of money, but the caring charities receive £300 million a year which they could not otherwise have expected.

Youth Sport

4.

To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what additional funding she will make available for youth sport. [35901]

The Sports Council will make available, additionally to the £4 million already spent on youth sport, an extra £1 million to enable trainee and serving teachers to obtain coaching qualifications. It will also set up a £2 million challenge fund to promote formal links between clubs and schools. Sportsmatch will be earmarking £1 million of its funding for school projects and, within the rules, we intend to make maximum use of the national lottery.

Are the Government considering additional funding for youth boxing? After James Murray's tragic death—the second death of a boxer in Britain in 18 months, on top of all the other serious injuries—should not the Government insist that the provision of any public money is conditional on a root and branch reform of boxing, which could perhaps include a ban on punches to the head, the prevention of dangerous dehydration and any other measures necessary to put safety first? Without such reform, should not boxing be banned altogether?

I certainly do not agree that boxing should be banned altogether. None the less, the hon. Gentleman makes a serious point at a tragic time. The Sports Council does not give any money to youth boxing, although Sportsmatch has given some which has been matched by the private sector. As the hon. Gentleman knows, after the tragedy on Saturday, the British Boxing Board of Control is conducting a full inquiry. After the tragic death of Bradley Stone 18 months ago, an independent working party was set up under the neurologist Peter Richards. It has completed its report and a summary is published today; the full report will be published in November. I think that that would be a good time to look again at the findings of the two reports.

Bearing in mind his well-known interest in cricket, will my hon. Friend the Minister, through the Department for Education and Employment and the particular organisers, say something about the programme for reviving cricket in schools in the Greater London area and, indeed, in further education institutions? What progress has been made?

In respect of improving the opportunities for young people to play cricket, the paper that we published on 14 July spelled out clearly the fact that cricket is one of the games that we wish to encourage most. I mentioned in my original answer the £2 million that the Sports Council is to make available to promote links between clubs and schools; cricket clubs will, of course, be among those which will benefit.

Further to the original question, which dealt with making more money available for youth sports, does the Minister agree that making that money available, especially in deprived areas, could do much to prevent youngsters from getting into trouble in the first place so that we would not need the rather ridiculous statements made by the Home Secretary to the effect that he wants to lock up people for longer? Would it not be better to make funds available at an early stage and give youngsters somewhere decent to play sport?

Yes, I agree entirely with the first part of the hon. Lady's question. In fact, her suggestion is one of the prime moving dynamics behind the consultation paper. I want more young people to have better access to sporting facilities. [Interruption.] I heard someone mention the selling of school playing fields. We are, I hope, going to make the Sports Council a statutory consultee so that no school playing field can be sold without that body having its say. We also intend to allow schools, with their local communities, to buy back land to make even more sports facilities available for young people.

Tourism

5.

To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage if she will make a statement about tourism in the midlands. [35902]

Tourism is an industry of vital importance to the midlands, as it is throughout Britain. In the midlands it provides 240,000 jobs and generates revenue of at least £900 million.

All parts of the country will benefit from Government initiatives to assist the tourism industry to become more competitive. These were announced in the document "Tourism: competing with the best", published by my Department earlier this year.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that overseas tourists should not confine their visits to London, but should go to parts of the midlands? Does she further agree that attractions such as Alton Towers in my constituency and the beautiful scenery surrounding it compare with anything that London can offer?

Undoubtedly, tourists coming to this country should visit Alton Towers. Of course, with the increasing pursuit of leisure and holiday activities within this country, people do not need to go overseas for their breaks—they can have excellent holidays in this country.

My hon. Friend is aware of my great concern, which he shares, that an attraction such as Alton Towers, which has 250 full-time workers and up to 1,700 seasonal workers, would be grievously afflicted if this country were ever to join the social chapter. The introduction of the minimum wage and the social chapter would wreck the tourist industry. All those concerned about that industry should ensure that there is a Conservative Government for as long as possible.

Will the Secretary of State look closely at the bid from the city pride site of Derby to be the site for the millennium exhibition? If the bid is successful, would that not be an enormous kick for tourism in the east midlands?

The hon. Gentleman has once again identified the way in which the lottery is resulting in wonderful regeneration projects and opportunities throughout the country. He will be aware that four sites are being closely examined for the millennium festival. We are further ahead than any other country in our preparations to celebrate the millennium. The lottery means that we can do it in a more magnificent way than anywhere else. I shall certainly bear in mind the hon. Gentleman's remarks about Derby.

Does my right hon. Friend think that the distribution of lottery funds is sufficient to encourage tourism in the east midlands? Is she aware that there are many attractions in my constituency of Bosworth, such as the Concordia theatre, the new Hinckley museum and even Bosworth battlefield, all of which might benefit from a little more generosity?

My hon. Friend rightly identifies the fact that overseas tourists often refer to heritage and cultural activities as the main reasons for their visits. The lottery money enables us to improve and modernise our arts, heritage and cultural life generally, which is a great boost for tourism. I shall draw my hon. Friend's comments to the distributing bodies, which are independent in their decisions about the distribution of lottery money.

Is the Secretary of State aware that midlands tourism has much less to fear from the social chapter than from the Government's current imposition of VAT on tourism, at levels far above those set by our competitor countries in the European Union? In this pre-Budget period, is she paying particular attention to the views of the Price Waterhouse report on the reduction of VAT? Will she give that her personal support?

My hon. Friend asks whether that is a pledge. The Opposition parties are very good at reducing sources of income while increasing spending, without even trying to make the figures add up.

I beg to differ with the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan). As the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) said, any fool knows that the cost to our country of a minimum wage and of the social chapter would be very great indeed—an estimated 800,000 jobs. Undoubtedly, the tourist industry would be the hardest hit.

National Lottery

6.

To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what recent discussions she has had with Camelot concerning the level of prizes in the national lottery. [35903]

I met Sir George Russell, chairman of Camelot Group plc, on 21 August. We discussed a number of issues concerning the national lottery, including prize levels.

Does the right hon. Lady appreciate that in some cases the multi-million pound prizes actually cause social distress? Would it not be far wiser to limit the top prize to £1 million, thereby creating a more fair and equitable lottery?

Looking at the background papers on the subject, I am reminded of the hon. Gentleman saying that he thought that the prizes were not large enough. Be that as it may, the hon. Gentleman will know that growing numbers of people play the lottery in a syndicate, so that very often, when a large prize is won, the proceeds are shared by a number of people. When large prizes are available, there is an enormous increase in the amount of money for good causes. The roll-over results in an increase of about 27 per cent. The lottery is required to maximise the return to good causes, to protect the interests of those playing, and ensure that it is conducted with propriety. I believe that on all three counts it is acting as a model.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the fact that many of my constituents would love to cope with the social distress to which the hon. Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes) referred if they were to win such magnificently high prizes? Indeed, that is precisely why so many of my constituents buy tickets. If they were not to do so due to all the petty restrictions beloved of Labour Members, there would be less money available to charities and the other many good causes.

My hon. Friend sums up the situation precisely. If the Opposition parties had their way, they would cap the prizes and reduce the money coming through for good causes. As things are, we are all winners with the lottery. Millions are playing, millions are winning and, above all, 1,432 projects have already benefited. The Labour party cannot abide success.

Is it true that the Secretary of State has issued a memo giving instructions to all the people who are concerned with grants and money from the lottery that in no circumstances should any money go to socialist Stratford?

If the hon. Gentleman checked where the lottery money was falling, he would find that far more goes to socialist authorities than to Conservative authorities, for the very reason that the money is going towards regeneration projects which are totally improving the face of the country—[HON. MEMBERS: "What about Stratford?"] There are no special cases. However, perhaps I could give the hon. Gentleman a list of projects in the Stratford area—[HoN. MEMBERS: "And Stratford East"]—to reassure him on that front.

Channel 4 Television

7.

To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage how she will ensure that the subsidy that Channel 4 must pay to the ITV companies will be used solely to finance programmes; and if she will make a statement. [35904]

It is for the Channel 3 companies to decide how they use any moneys paid to them by Channel 4 under the terms of the Broadcasting Act 1990.

Does the Secretary of State agree that Channel 4's creative programming has produced not only viewer satisfaction and commercial profit, but an increased international respect for this country's primacy in quality public service broadcasting? Will she assure the House that the Bill soon to be introduced on the media will re-examine the present funding formulas so that Channel 4 will not be unfairly penalised in the future—as it undoubtedly is at the moment—for its overwhelming success?

I do not accept that Channel 4 is penalised for its success. Channel 4 has been extremely successful as a result of the new arrangements and I congratulate it on all that it has done. The Broadcasting Act 1990 set out the funding formula for Channel 4 and that exists until the end of 1997. It would be quite improper to move the goal posts during that period. Like the hon. Lady, however, I commend the success of Channel 4.

The Secretary of State knows perfectly well that the Broadcasting Act was never intended to draw money from Channel 4. Indeed, the safety net was designed to assist Channel 4. Does she accept that taking £70 million from Channel 4 in each of the next two years will damage the creative ability of the British television industry and will mean that one of our biggest assets will be under-used? Will she undertake to review the matter and, if appropriate, bring forward relevant amendments which we could discuss in the House when we debate the new media Bill?

It is only the Labour party which constantly wants to move the goal posts. We have already had the smoke-filled deal on BT and the cable companies. Similarly, on this matter, it would be quite improper to modify the arrangements while they are under way. The funding arrangement has ensured the stability of Channel 4 at a time when there is a great deal of change in the television industry. The independent television companies took that into account when they bid for their licences. Certainly, the independent television companies invest very heavily in original programming.

Sports Participation

8.

To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage if she will make a statement about the provision of funding for grass roots participation in sport. [35905]

The main provision for grass roots participation in sport is made by local authorities, with expenditure in excess of £950 million annually, but the Sports Council will consider applications to the national lottery from local authorities and others in support of projects offering a wide appeal.

Does the Minister accept that enthusiasm at grass roots for any sport will depend on a number of factors, including funding, but also on safety? In the light of the tragic death on Friday evening in Glasgow, does he agree that it is now necessary to have an independent inquiry into the safety of boxing? Why not set up a royal commission for that purpose?

The hon. and learned Gentleman asks a serious question and I take it seriously. As I said in response to the hon. Member for Neath (Mr. Hain), there will be an inquiry by the British Boxing Board of Control within the next couple of weeks. The hon. and learned Gentleman used the word "independent". An independent working group under the neurologist Peter Richards will report in November. I suggest that the best thing that we can do is see what both reports say. Then—although I must tell the hon. and learned Gentleman that I am not at this moment in favour of a royal commission—we will certainly look at the matter again.

Does my hon. Friend agree that, notwithstanding the tragic death of James Murray, which everyone regrets deeply, the sport of boxing has a great deal to offer young people of all ages? It is a well controlled and well disciplined sport which is valuable to young people who choose to undertake it and others who do not choose to undertake it. Will he agree not to discourage public funds from going properly into the sport, notwithstanding any possible measures to increase safety?

I certainly agree with my hon. Friend. It is a terrific sport and it would be a great shame if this tragic death weighed too heavily. When deaths from sports were last examined in a comprehensive way—between 1986 and 1992—there were some 268 deaths from other sports, including 40 deaths from ball games, as opposed in those days to only three deaths from boxing. So although this is a tragic moment and we should not take it as anything other than that, we should not let ourselves be overwhelmed by one tragedy.

Concessionary Television Licences

9.

To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what is her Department's policy concerning reduced cost television licences for retired pensioners; and if she will make a statement. [35906]

As the Government made clear in the White Paper, "The Future of the BBC", published in July 1994, we have no plans to introduce reduced fee television licences for pensioners. This would be very expensive in terms of lost licence fee revenue, on which the BBC depends for the funding of its home broadcasting services. Any such shortfall would have to be offset by a substantial increase in licence fees for all other licence payers, irrespective of their means.

Many progressive councils which have warden-operated schemes charge as little as £5 for a television licence to those who were lucky enough to be in such accommodation before the Government changed the law in May 1988. Can we not have a national scheme in which all pensioners are winners? That is the subject of campaigning by many people, by The Star newspaper in my area and by almost every pensioners' organisation that I have ever addressed.

I certainly pay true tribute to the persistence of the hon. Gentleman on behalf of his constituents who were not eligible for the £5 concessionary fee because they had not signed on before 18 May 1988. Nevertheless, we now have a scheme whereby pensioners or the disabled living in residential accommodation which qualifies for concession receive their television licence for £5 a year. Although I readily admit that there are one or two anomalies in the scheme, it is probably the best that we can construct. Perhaps Opposition Members can use their ingenuity to find a way of making this a matter for discussion when the Broadcasting Bill comes before the House in due course.

Sport

10.

To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what progress has been made with carrying out the Government's new sports policy, with special reference to competitive sport in schools. [35907]

The working group on university sports scholarships, which is being chaired by Sir Roger Bannister, has begun its work, and the consultation stage on the sportsmark and gold star awards scheme for schools closed on 13 October. My Department and the Sports Council are now working towards the implementation of that scheme in secondary schools for the academic term 1996–97. The Department of the Environment will shortly publish a consultation paper on the Sports Council becoming a statutory consultee on planning proposals affecting school playing fields.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Will he join me in welcoming the development of substantial local projects, of which two in particular are being proposed in my constituency—Blackpool cricket club's plan to develop new facilities for youngsters and a potential partnership between two local primary schools? One of those schools has a sports field but insufficient drainage and the other has no sports field but would like to share a sports field if the lottery will provide funding for a new exterior changing block and for drainage.

I know of the hard work that my hon. Friend has done for Roseacres and for the other school. As long as those schools can show that what they want is good for the wider community, they will certainly be eligible for lottery funds. I wish them all the luck in the world.

Notwithstanding the fact that the Government have no new sports policy—it is more a rehash of others, including parts of our own—does the Minister recognise that more than three quarters of those who responded to the Department for Education's consultation paper on the national curriculum opposed the narrow imposition of compulsory competitive sport in our schools?

If the Minister does not accept the dictum, vox populi, vox Dei, will he at least accept the view of one of our country's mortal sporting gods, Gary Lineker, who only last week spoke of the training programme of one of Europe's most successful soccer clubs, which included dance, aerobics and other physical movement activities? Will the right hon. Gentleman look again at that aspect of his policy?

I was rather surprised to hear the hon. Gentleman say that we do not have a sports policy. When we announced our new sports policy on 14 July, it was heralded as the biggest revolution in sport for 50 years. We cannot produce policies every day of the week.

I agree that, by and large, the education establishment has been extremely supportive of our proposals, although there may be items that members of the education establishment wish to discuss with me in more detail. I have already met the National Association of Head Teachers. I shall meet Mr. McAvoy and Mr. de Gruchy and I shall listen carefully to what they have to say.

I appointed Mr. Lineker to the new United Kingdom sports council, which starts work on 1 January 1996; no doubt he will have the opportunity to make his views known to a wider public then.

National Lottery

11.

To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what studies she has undertaken of the impact of the national lottery. [35908]

My Department has commissioned research on participation levels and we are undertaking a study of the economic impact of national lottery proceeds on the cultural and sporting sectors.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that although there is widespread public approval for the success of the lottery there is considerable anxiety about its impact on charities and on the competitive position of small shopkeepers who have been denied the right to sell lottery tickets?

Allegations have been made about the lottery's effects on charities; so far, they have been without substance. A recent MORI poll suggested that, of those playing the lottery, 4 per cent. had increased their contribution to charities, whereas 2 per cent. had reduced their contribution. There are many charities. In some years, they are very successful, in others they are less so.

My hon. Friend will be aware that the Home Office is monitoring the impact of the lottery on the charitable sector. Whatever the result, I have no doubt that the £300 million a year that is being made available for the caring charities will far exceed any possible minor effect that the lottery may have had.

The 18,000 retailers who have a lottery outlet have had a great advantage. I know that Camelot is on target to have 40,000 outlets, and it is another way in which the lottery is benefiting not only the retailer but the people who win the prizes and play the games.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the Rowntree Foundation's concern that a disproportionate number of lottery grants are going to the most prosperous parts of the country? Will she address particularly the Rowntree Foundation's recommendation that the matching funding requirement should be relaxed in disadvantaged areas where the problems of raising local funds are the most severe?

All the distribution bodies take a flexible approach to the way in which matching funding is interpreted. I dispute very strongly the hon. Gentleman's allegation with regard to the Rowntree report. Lottery money is going to a wide range of regeneration projects, such as the recent renaissance of Portsmouth harbour, which received £40 million; the Earth centre at Doncaster, which received £50 million; the Welsh highland railway, which received £4 million; the trans-Pennine trail; the millennium forests in Scotland; and the Sustran cycle tracks up and down the country. Regeneration is proving to be a great boost to the country.

The distribution bodies have invested particularly in projects for disabled people. Some £4.5 million was invested in the Jubilee sailing trust and a touring theatre company has received new vans. Many projects have helped the disadvantaged—and that is before the caring charities have begun to make their awards.

Duchy Of Lancaster

Magistrates

30.

To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what assessment he has made of whether an adequate number of people are applying to become magistrates in the Duchy. [35883]

My assessment is that although there is an adequate number of applications from certain age groups—for example, retired people—we are not receiving enough applications from younger individuals.

I welcome my right hon. Friend to his first Duchy questions. Will he confirm that it is his policy to ensure that successful applicants are drawn from a wider cross-section of the community? Is he aware that there is sometimes a problem in that regard?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks. I recognise that within the County Palatine, where I have responsibility for appointing magistrates, there is a problem, which also exists throughout England and Wales, in finding enough young applicants, particularly among men and women who work in industry. I intend to approach some of the larger employers within the County Palatine to remind them of the great contribution made by unpaid voluntary magistrates and of the contributions that employers can make to their employment opportunities and to their own businesses by discharging that essential public service.

Does the Minister recognise that there is considerable concern in the County Palatine that the magistrates who are appointed do not reflect the political complexion of the county? I accept that it is not a political duty, but magistrates should represent the political views of a broad cross-section of the people living within a county.

I accept what the hon. Gentleman says and I am pleased that he has reminded the House that magistrates are not appointed purely on the basis of their political affiliations. It is important, however, to ensure that magistrates reflect the views of the communities from which they are drawn and that a fair and proper balance is maintained.

As for the County Palatine, we should like to receive more applications and nominations from those who have political affiliations other than Conservative. Therefore, I believe that the solution lies in the hands of individuals who believe that their political affiliations are not being represented fairly.

This year marks the 75th anniversary of the Magistrates Association. I pay tribute to all the magistrates in the County Palatine and to the 30,000 magistrates in England and Wales who do such a magnificent job on behalf of the public.

Deregulation

31.

To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what progress has been made in implementing the Government's deregulation initiative. [35884]

37.

To ask the Deputy Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the progress he has been able to secure on deregulation by Her Majesty's Government. [35892]

Order. I can deal with the matter. The Deputy Prime Minister is replying to the question.

I have been asked to reply to Question 31 as the Minister responsible for deregulation—[Interruption.]

The Government announced a package of new measures on 19 September in response to a report by the deregulation task force. It included new joint working arrangements on taxation and national insurance. As well as changes to existing legislation, we accepted recommendations to make enforcement more business friendly and to minimise burdens from new regulations. We have now accepted more than 530 of the recommendations made by Lord Sainsbury's task force. Copies of the task force's report, the Government's response and a commentary on progress on Lord Sainsbury's recommendations have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses.

May I say how welcome that statement is to many business men in my constituency? I hope that, in progressing the initiative, my right hon. Friend will do his best to ensure that business men are aware of the progress that we are making in achieving deregulation.

I shall certainly ensure that. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his supplementary question. The deregulation unit and the Office of Public Service must consider how European directives have been implemented in the United Kingdom. I confirm that the provisions of the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994 can be used to amend and simplify United Kingdom implementation of legislation in European directives. That will be much welcomed by the business community.

I welcome my right hon. Friend to the Dispatch Box in his important new responsibilities and the Government's business friendly initiative announced on 19 September.

Has my right hon. Friend yet found time to read European Commission regulation 3223/94, which, if implemented, would impose an extra 50p on a litre of fresh orange juice sold in this country, costing an estimated 1,000 jobs? In addition, a quarter of our abattoirs would be put out of business by similar regulations—

Order. We are not in debate. The hon. Gentleman has asked about a particular document. The Minister must now be allowed to answer. He has had enough information about the document—I certainly have.

The Minister has not read them. Mr. Freeman: I have read them.

Before any European directive is implemented, we shall ensure—collectively as a Government and individually as Ministers—that no provisions are added and that we implement it quickly but fairly and with proper, balanced enforcement.

Is the Minister aware of the clear evidence that his pressure to deregulate is leading to fewer inspections of private care homes and residential care premises? That is not only a retrograde step but a dangerous one. If that is his idea of deregulation, his Government will suffer for it, but my constituents will suffer even more.

That is not the idea of deregulation. It is principally to make sure that we, unlike the Labour party, seek to lift the burden on enterprise, particularly on small and medium-sized enterprises. We are not seeking to remove protection from the consumer, from those in care homes or from anyone else, particularly those in the workplace. We are deregulating to help the competitiveness of the United Kingdom economy.

Does the Chancellor of the Duchy agree that the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994, which he and the Deputy Prime Minister support, gives unprecedented powers to central Government, because, by statutory instrument, the House can change Acts of Parliament? Does it not also show the undemocratic and centralised view of the Government that the Minister attempts to answer a question from the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Robinson) to the Deputy Prime Minister, who is sitting there beside him and does not have the guts to answer?

I am sure that the Deputy Prime Minister can answer for himself, and he will. [Interruption.] The Deputy Prime Minister will answer for himself as soon as I have answered the question.

This is not an undemocratic process. The Scrutiny Committees of the House and the other place consider all secondary legislation to amend primary legislation. I can confirm that we shall lay one order a week to deregulate and to repeal unnecessary legislation.

Departmental Priorities

32.

To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what principal priorities he has set his Department. [35885]

To promote the competitiveness agenda, the deregulation initiative and the effective administration of the services for which my Department is responsible.

Why has the right hon. Gentleman already promoted himself? In the summer the Order Paper described him as the First Secretary of State, whereas today's Order Paper describes him as the Deputy Prime Minister? Will the next Order Paper describe him by his real title, which is surrogate party chairman? Surely he is nothing more than a glorified party chairman. That being so, should not his salary, at least in part, be funded from Tory central office, or could it not afford him?

The hon. Gentleman will realise that there has been a lot of progress since the summer—we are on our way to victory.

Is the Deputy Prime Minister willing to put his great skill, courage and determination in watching expenditure into looking carefully at expenditure by the European Community, which sadly seems out of control? This week we have been told that the agriculture budget will overspend its legal limits by £1,000 million. Will he see whether anything can be done about that matter?

I assure my hon. Friend that I will give the matter full attention.

I offer my congratulations to the right hon. Gentleman on his new jobs. I hope that he will forgive me if I do not mention all his new titles, as I have only 20 minutes.

I should like to take a few seconds to welcome the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Howarth). [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since he took charge of deregulation and competition policy there has been a record number of new regulations and business failures and that Britain has slipped five places in the world competitiveness league? Is it not about time that the hopalong deputy shouted "About turn" on his own policies?

The deputy leader of the Labour party referred to my former hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Howarth). There is a better journey—that of my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Horam), who saw through the Labour party long before its own leaders, flirted with social democracy and ended up serving his country as a Minister in a Conservative Government.

As for the rather pathetic jokes about hopping along, I do not have much experience of abandoning my principles and my policies, but if I had I would have done the hopping a great deal better.

Does my right hon. Friend accept the evidence that since he joined Mrs. Thatcher's first Administration in 1979 this country has undergone substantial national renewal and that it remains a principal task of any Conservative Government to unite the nation?

My hon. Friend understands that one of the proudest boasts of the Conservative party is its adherence to the philosophies and policies of one nation. For that reason, above all else, we have governed this country longer than any other democratic party in the history of democracy.

Should it not be one of the Deputy Prime Minister's priorities to produce a co-ordinated ministerial line on Europe? In that regard, would he explain to the Defence Secretary that this country has had treaty obligations to go to war on behalf of other European countries and has been part of an integrated command structure with other European countries since before the Defence Secretary was in his pram?

My right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary has never questioned the obligations of this country under treaties. He was merely talking about the concept of a federalist defence policy in Europe, which the Government reject.

Government Policy

33.

To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what are his responsibilities in respect of the presentation of Government policy. [35887]

I am chairman of the Cabinet committee with responsibility for the co-ordination and presentation of Government policy.

As he has completed his pantomime act in Blackpool, will the right hon. Gentleman, who is often described as the Archie Rice of British politics, tell us when he expects a substantial improvement in the standing of the Government? Are we right to believe that if, as seems likely, no such improvement occurs, the right hon. Gentleman will resign, or will he try once more before the next general election to get the job that he really wants?

No, I shall help the Prime Minister win the fifth term which he is entitled to expect.

To describe the party conference that I attended in the terms that the hon. Gentleman does misses the cynicism of his own party conference, which saw the leadership of his party deny the record of his party for as long as I have been in active politics—a total and cynical abdication of everything most Labour Members believe in. The concept of new Labour, with the hon. Members for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Howarth) and for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) on the same side of the House is mesmerising.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that he and I have listened over many years to the Opposition's comments on the Government's policy and that it is those policies and the way in which we have practised them that have won us successive general elections and that will win the next one?

As always, I find myself in complete accord with my hon. Friend.

Departmental Priorities

34.

To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what are his Department's priorities in Scotland. [35888]

As elsewhere in the United Kingdom, to promote the continuing improvement of public services and the deregulation and increased competitiveness of British industry.

In the background briefing to the Deputy Prime Ministers's appointment we were told that he would implement policy across Whitehall. Does that include the Scottish Office and, if so, what gems await us?

The Deputy Prime Minister and, indeed, all the Ministers in the Office of Public Service cover competitiveness across the United Kingdom. The right hon. Gentleman needs to reflect on whether Labour's policy on a national minimum wage and adherence to the social chapter of the Maastricht treaty would aid competitiveness. Most Conservative Members will be quite clear about the answer to that question.

Transfers Of Responsibility

35.

To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what responsibilities have been transferred from his Department since 1 July. [35889]

The Office of Science and Technology has transferred to the Department of Trade and Industry.

As co-chairman of the all-party group, the Friends of Medical Research, I am disturbed that, in the last funding round, only 30 per cent. of the Medical Research Council's bids for Alpha funding were granted, against the usual figure of around 100 per cent. Will my hon. Friend assure the House that such projects are important to ensure that the brain drain is reversed and that medical research will not fall between the twin stools of his Department and the Department of Trade and Industry?

I know that my hon. Friend follows these matters very closely, so he will be aware that we have succeeded in keeping constant in real terms the overall science budget at about £1.3 billion a year. Included in that is a hefty share for medical research. Obviously, I cannot commit my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, whose responsibility that is, but I am sure from my conversations with him that he is well aware of the importance and success of medical research in this country and that he will do his best to keep up funding.

I can understand that the Minister may have some difficulty knowing whether he is deputy to the Deputy or deputy to the deputy to the Deputy, but given the new supervisory regime in the Department, and the demise of the cones hotline, will he now tell us what the three top priorities for the citizens charter are, and who decided them?

I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman himself knows who he is deputy to—perhaps what happens on Thursday will have some say in that. The fact is that the citizens charter's priorities remain as they always were—to produce a better quality public service.

Deregulation

36.

To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what proposals he has to introduce new deregulation measures. [35890]

As part of the package of new measures that we announced on 19 September, we hope to bring forward one deregulation order each week Parliament is sitting, using powers under the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994.

The whole House will welcome the unfreezing of payments to medal holders, but when will the Government deregulate the rule that freezes 30 other payments, including the payment to widows which has not been increased by a penny since its introduction, even though it replaced the widow's allowance, which was increased every year? The widow's payment should now be £881 more than it is. Is the right hon. Gentleman proud of being a Minister in a Government who cheat widows at the moment of their bereavement?

The whole House will wish to share with the Prime Minister the delighted reception from Victoria Cross holders following the announcement made last week; it was much appreciated not only by the holders but by all members of their families.

I shall draw the hon. Gentleman's comments to the attention of my colleagues in Cabinet.

Lord Home (Tributes)

3.30 pm

A week ago Alec Douglas-Home, Lord Home, died at his home, The Hirsel. Alec Home was one of those people who light up politics with their integrity. I believe that the whole House will wish to join me today in sending our deepest sympathies to his family.

I was not privileged to know Alec Douglas-Home when he was Prime Minister or Foreign Secretary; I only had the pleasure of meeting him many years later. But even in those days, as someone who watched politics from far beyond this House, I felt from a distance that here was a man of many qualities and few pretensions. He believed that people with privileges had, with those privileges, to accept obligations. He could have chosen the leisured life of a Scottish laird, but he chose to accept obligation and a duty to public service. When fate called him to serve in the highest office, he disclaimed his historic titles, a step that no one in his position could possibly have taken lightly.

Alec Douglas-Home was a modest and a likeable man—a man of dignity, charming, witty and gentle. It is not surprising that he inspired affection among those with whom he worked and among millions who never met him. He never let public life take over. He was happiest with his family, fishing the River Tweed, studying the racing form book or on the cricket field. During one election, he abandoned the election campaign for a day playing cricket, which I think is a perfectly proper sense of priorities for an Englishman—and a very enlightened sense of priorities for a Scottish man. He was a good cricketer too, the only Prime Minister ever to play for MCC.

Alec Home was a family man. His wife Elizabeth, the love of his life, was both his inspiration and his most resolute champion. She shared not only his triumphs and difficulties but his sense of humour. Both of them were devoted Christians, but perhaps only Elizabeth Home could have described the parliamentary Christian wives as the "holy hens" and escaped without rebuke.

Alec Home first stood for election in Coatbridge, as Alec Dunglass, in 1929. He was shocked by the poverty and hardship that he found there. Two years later, elected for the neighbouring constituency of South Lanark, itself no stranger to poverty, he had already formed his strong belief in one nation policies. By the end of 1935, he was parliamentary private secretary at the Ministry of Labour. A few months later, Neville Chamberlain, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, invited him to become his parliamentary private secretary.

Suddenly, with Neville Chamberlain's elevation to Prime Minister, Alec Home found himself at the very centre of government. Although he did not accompany Chamberlain on all his foreign travels, he was with him at that crucial meeting in Munich with Hitler. Alec Home was not, of course, personally responsible for the agreements reached, but, with a loyalty that was characteristic of the man, he would never subsequently criticise Chamberlain's actions.

At the outbreak of war, Alec Home was keen to serve. To his bitter disappointment, he was declared unfit. When tuberculosis of the spine was diagnosed, year upon year of painful treatment followed. With his spine rebuilt, his parting words to his doctors were typical of the man's gentle, self-mocking humour. He said, "You have achieved the impossible; you have put backbone into a politician." Time and time again during his subsequent political career he demonstrated that backbone. He dared to criticise Churchill for the Yalta agreement and the way in which it treated Poland. But three months later, in a typical Churchillian move, Alec Home was appointed to the Foreign Office for a spell lasting only a few weeks before the 1945 election. It was, however, an important step in his political development.

Five years later, Alec Home returned to the House. Only 12 months beyond that he inherited the titles that took him to the other place. He heard the news in the Chamber. He immediately rushed away, only to discover outside the Chamber that he had forgotten his spectacles. In keeping with the tradition of the House, his return was barred now that he was a part of the other place.

With the return of a Conservative Government, Alec Home was appointed to a new post as Minister of State, Scottish Office. He cared deeply about Scotland and about the Union. He once said, "I have always taken the view that we have successfully borrowed the canniness of the highlander to make a living out of the Englishman."

In 1955, Anthony Eden promoted Alec Home to Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations. It was a time of unsettling change for the Commonwealth, which was struggling to adjust to the end of Empire. Alec Home was central to the Commonwealth's evolution, taking particular responsibility for developing economic co-operation. During that period, he held also the offices of Lord Privy Seal and Lord President of the Council.

Harold Macmillan increasingly relied on Alec Home's wise and honest advice. In 1960, Macmillan made him Foreign Secretary. Alec Home quickly established authority across the world during an especially sensitive period in international relations. He displayed firmness in challenging the Soviet Union and he resolved a serious international crisis in Asia. He performed his role as Foreign Secretary as he did every role, without pretension.

The sight of a British Foreign Secretary climbing from an aeroplane in a rumpled tweed suit amused many foreign dignitaries. As Macmillan later said, "The Foreign Secretary has been accused of many things but never of being the best dressed man in the Cabinet." I do not know why I look around to see whether my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is with us this afternoon, but I am sure that there must be a reason.

When Macmillan resigned, Alec Home did not at first see himself as a candidate; but when it was clear that he was best placed to unite the Conservative party, he became one. As Prime Minister, he did unite the party. I believe that he restored confidence in political life. Just as he promised, people knew that they could rely on his plain, straight talking. He introduced the controversial retail food prices index legislation, which brought competition to the retail industry and lower prices for the consumer. He interrupted his Christmas holiday to take decisive action to prevent a bloodbath in Cyprus. Time after time he ensured that Britain came to the assistance of her Commonwealth partners in Africa.

The tribute to the mark that Alec Home made as Prime Minister was not that he lost the 1964 election but that he came so close to winning it. After his resignation as party leader, he served loyally under my right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Sir E. Heath), in opposition, and later once more as Foreign Secretary. His stature as an ex-Prime Minister enhanced his role across the world. After he returned to the Lords, he continued to be a source of wise counsel, and he was able to enjoy his retirement back home in the house that he loved so dearly for all his life. He was once again able to pursue the life of the Scottish gentleman that he had remained for all of his days.

Alec Home's politics are best summed up in his own words. He once said:
"I want to get away from this 'us and them'; Britain is one nation—it belongs to us all. and we belong to it".
Some have said that Alec Home was a politician of another age. The greatest tribute that I can pay him today is simply this: I profoundly hope not.

3.40 pm

It is my privilege to join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Lord Home and to send our condolences and sympathy to his family. I never met him but, like Harold Wilson, whose life we celebrated earlier this year, he was familiar to me, and, indeed, to all my generation, as one of the great political figures of our early years. If one reads any of the obituaries about him, two words recur: affection and decency. He was a straight man—genuine, liked and trusted by political foes and friends. However satirised and disparaged, and he came in for his fair share of both, his essential and transparent decency allowed him to rise above it, and people—ordinary people—had a great affection for him.

Jimmy Maxton, the Labour Member of Parliament for Clydeside, once said to him in the Commons Tea Room, "Alec, I have been thinking that, come the revolution, I'll have you strung up on a lamp post, but on reflection I'll offer you a cup of tea instead."

By making no attempt to conceal his background, and by allying it to a self-deprecating sense of humour, Lord Home turned political attacks against those making them. When challenged in the Kinross by-election in 1963 as to whether he would live in the constituency, he replied that he did not think that he would, since he had more houses than he could live in already. Most famously of all, when Harold Wilson mocked him for being the 14th Earl, he remarked that he supposed that Mr. Wilson, when one came to think of it, was the 14th Mr. Wilson.

The image that survives focuses often on Lord Home's character and the peculiarity of someone with his upbringing and apparent indifference to ambition becoming Prime Minister, but that should not cause us to overlook his substantial achievements, both as a parliamentarian and as a statesman. He entered Parliament in 1931. He secured re-election in 1935 and was, as the Prime Minister said, parliamentary private secretary to Neville Chamberlain, first when Chamberlain was Chancellor of the Exchequer and then when he was Prime Minister.

It is said against Lord Home that, working for Chamberlain, he was naturally part of Munich and appeasement and all that went with it, and I suppose that it is true to say that history has judged very harshly the motives of all those who were involved in that futile search for peace, but to my mind it is to his great credit that he never ran away from his part in Munich or ceased to defend the motives of Chamberlain. He could have disowned his leader—his own position in the affair was, after all, very minor—but he did not, and I think that that speaks volumes for his decency and courage.

When war broke out, Lord Home tried to enlist, as the Prime Minister has described, but through illness was unable to and spent almost two years in recuperation from tuberculosis of the spine. He used that time to read and to study voraciously. He dedicated himself particularly to the study of foreign affairs, becoming something of an expert on it, and when he returned to Parliament in 1945 he spoke out strongly in favour of the independence of Poland, which was a very brave and courageous thing to do. He spoke against the Yalta agreement and became a relentless and persuasive critic of Soviet expansion.

Throughout the 1950s, as Secretary of State for the Commonwealth and then later as Leader of the House of Lords, having gone there after his father's death, he argued a position with great clarity, of the dangers of Soviet imperialism, but typically combined it with a strong push for disarmament, saying that Britain would be pleased to play a substantial part in such a process provided a proper response was forthcoming.

It is fair to say that, when Lord Home was appointed Foreign Secretary in 1960, there was a total furore over the appointment. Motions of no confidence were tabled in the House; the newspapers deplored the appointment of a peer—a "faceless earl", as one called him—as Foreign Secretary. As ever, he reacted by not reacting, but getting on with the job.

With hindsight, most people would acknowledge Lord Home to have been a substantial success. He was strong in standing with President Kennedy over the Cuban missile crisis; but he was also strong in standing up against the American view when he thought it right to do so, as over Laos and the provision of a seat at the United Nations for China. That was something that Home strongly supported and others did not.

A greater prize was, of course, to come. That Lord Home became leader of the Conservatives in 1963 is a fact, but how he did so remains something of a mystery. Two things stand out, however: first, how extraordinary it was that, in relatively modern times, as a Member of the House of Lords, Home could ever have become Prime Minister. He was able to do so in part—a nice irony—because, thanks to my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn), he was able to renounce his peerage to fight a by-election and enter the House of Commons. His outstanding personal qualities, however, must have impressed his colleagues for such a risk even to have been considered.

As Alec Douglas-Home wrote in his autobiography, the greatest shock that he suffered was the culture shock, coming from the other place to the House of Commons. He wrote:
"My first appearance at the Box was nearly my last. I was quite unprepared for the sheer noise and if it had not been for the solid table between me and the Opposition, I should have been seen shaking at the knees."
The second remarkable feature is, indeed, how close Alec Douglas-Home came to winning the 1964 election. He believed, and later said, that had it not been for the refusal of lain Macleod and Enoch Powell to serve under him, he might have won. After defeat, he behaved with his usual dignity. He changed the rules for electing the Tory party leader—a precedent that I understand the present Prime Minister is looking to follow. He supported his successor completely—a precedent that the Prime Minister no doubt wishes was followed. He served under his successor as Foreign Secretary—a precedent that the Prime Minister is perhaps unlikely to follow.

There were two other powerful points of view that Home held and articulated. He was, of course, a "one nation" Tory; but he was one of the first to make the case for Britain to join the Common Market, and for Britain's place in Europe. Although, as the Prime Minister rightly says, he was a passionate supporter of the Union between England and Scotland, he did propose—in his committee on Scottish government—devolving limited legislative powers to a Scottish Assembly, which is of more than passing interest.

What, then, is the attraction of Alec Douglas-Home, and how can we summarise it? There is an apparent contradiction. He was a laird who lived like a laird, who owned vast estates, who loved the country sports of hunting, shooting and fishing, yet was given great affection by millions of British people who shared neither his birth nor his politics. He was someone who had all the advantages of aristocracy sometimes associated with arrogance, yet was humble in his assessment of himself and his actions. He was a person who did not need to work at all, yet worked hard all his life in the service of others.

The contradiction is resolved in this way. Alec Douglas-Home was above all a man of honour, who stayed a man of honour: a decent man who, through all the temptations and anxieties of politics, remained decent—not a man from another age, but a rarity in any age; a good servant of the people, for whose life we give thanks.

3.48 pm

On behalf of my right hon. and hon. Friends, I join in the tributes to Lord Home of the Hirsel. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) for his suggestion that, in view of our close Scottish border connections, it might be appropriate for me to say a few words on behalf of our party, and to add our expressions of sympathy to David and Caroline.

I said on the news of Sir Alec's death that he was probably the last of the gentleman politicians, motivated solely and dutifully by a call to public service. That may have made him seem, as Prime Minister, strangely old-fashioned; yet he incorporated good, old-fashioned virtues—honesty, straight dealing, hard work, lack of malice, openness and a readiness to listen. He was also self-deprecating in his enjoyment of his own caricatures, and he would have detested today's trends towards sound bites and image spin makers.

At the time, Sir Alec seemed rather set in his ways as a cold warrior, and perhaps that stemmed from a reaction to his period with Neville Chamberlain. However, he had a genuine and consistent detestation of tyranny in every form. As Commonwealth Secretary, he pursued Harold Macmillan's wind of change policy towards South Africa. As Foreign Secretary, he could easily have done a deal with Ian Smith in Rhodesia that would have been popular with sections of his party and the press but would have surrendered African majority rights. He steadfastly refused to do that.

Sir Alec's earlier experience as Minister of State, Scottish Office led him to recognise with equal consistency the shortcomings of Scottish legislation at Westminster and, as the Leader of the Opposition has said, he advocated the creation of an elected Scottish convention. Whatever its defects in detail, that could have been a step in the right direction. In the 1979 referendum in Scotland his intervention was possibly crucial when he urged a vote against the Labour Government's devolution proposals with the promise that a Conservative Government would present better ones. It was not his fault that, with a change of leadership, that promise was never fulfilled.

The Prime Minister rightly referred to Sir Alec's characteristically puckish sense of humour. He was a highly entertaining after-dinner speaker and, like us all, he had a small stock of well-used tales from his own life. I many times heard him recount the incident when he tried to butter up some truculent individual with forced bonhomie: "How's the wife?" he asked, only to receive the challenging reply, "Compared to what?"

One cold winter night, Sir Alec and I were driving together after a dinner in the borders to catch the Edinburgh-London sleeper at Berwick-upon-Tweed where it passed through at about half-past midnight. For those who do not know it, that station consists of one long windswept platform. As we drove along the banks of the Tweed and were about to pass the gates of the Hirsel, he looked at his watch and said, "We will be 20 minutes early at Berwick. Why don't we stop for a drink?"

We drove up the long drive to his stately home and I must admit that I had visions of roaring log fires and butlers with silver trays. Not so, Elizabeth was in London and the place was deserted. We went in by a side door and he blundered about the rambling basement corridor searching for the light switches. He produced a jug of beer and we went upstairs to his high-ceilinged study. The central heating was off and the grate was empty. We sat huddled in our overcoats and he raised his glass in welcome and said, "I suppose you're thinking that we would have been warmer on the station platform."

As Sir Alec's books in our Library testify, his first love was the Scottish border country. He was genuinely interested in the farming of his estates, as well as the shooting and especially the fishing on the Tweed. The Hirsel stable and coach block now houses an enterprising craft centre and rural museum. My hon. Friend the Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) and I were always astonished at the way in which in his later years this international statesman, who was fully entitled to put his feet up, never found any dinner, flower show or school prize day in the borders too insignificant to attend. He was a readily approachable local figure and I can best conclude by quoting from an editorial in one of the border newspapers. It states:
"Lord Home's traditional family values, warmth and integrity won him a special place in the affections of his fellow Borderers."
He was quite simply one of the nicest people in public life and we remember him today with gratitude.

4.53 pm

Sir Alec Douglas-Home's death is a sad loss to his family and friends and to all those who knew him. Our consolation is that he lived to a great age and that his was a life of great fulfilment. My generation first got to hear of him when he came back from Munich with Neville Chamberlain. Looking back on history, it is interesting to note that he was never tarnished with the label of appeasement. Nobody ever suspected for a moment that Alec Douglas-Home would give way to pressure and agree to something that he believed to be wrong. It was only long afterwards that he admitted that he had advised Neville Chamberlain against waving the piece of paper which he resisted at the airport. However, when he got back to the balcony of No. 10, he was so moved emotionally that he gave way and waved it with "Peace in our time". It is true that Alec Douglas-Home never criticised him, but that was certainly his view of the episode.

I sometimes felt that the four long years that Lord Home had spent on his back due to illness had led to his peacefulness but, at the same time, his determination in carrying out what he wished to do. I do not think that those years were wasted years, because they created in him the strength of purpose that carried him through the rest of his life.

After the election of 1950, Alec Douglas-Home was back in the House. When the news of his father's death came through, it fell to me, as a Whip, to rush into the No Lobby where I knew that he was voting, grab him by the arm and rush him out, trying at the same time to explain to him quietly and clearly that his father had died and that if he went through the Lobby, having inherited his title, he would be liable to a financial penalty, which I thought thoroughly undesirable. I just managed to get him out in time so he did not commit the grave offence of voting in this House when he had already become a peer.

When Lord Home became Foreign Secretary, I went with him to the Foreign Office as Lord Privy Seal. Harold Macmillan realised of course that his appointment from the House of Lords as Foreign Secretary would create a great commotion. I remember that Mr. Cecil King, the owner of the Daily Mirror, went so far as to blazon across his paper the fact that Harold Macmillan had ignored Cecil King's advice. It was, however, a very good appointment, if I may say so.

We worked closely together for three years as I was Lord Privy Seal dealing with matters in this House. Throughout the European negotiations—our first attempt to enter the Community—Lord Home backed me to the hilt in the Cabinet, in his House, in our party and at party conferences. Of course, the same occurred when we resumed negotiations in the 1970s and were successful. In one of the last telephone conversations that I had with him, he said that he had thought about it a great deal and concluded more and more that we were absolutely right to take this country in the European Community and that that was where our future rested.

When Harold Macmillan summoned us and told us that we were both going to the Foreign Office, it was late July. As we left, Sir Alec—or Lord Home, as he then was—said that we should go to his office and that the first thing to do was to settle our priorities. I said, "Of course," and, when we got there, I asked what the priorities were. He said that the first priority was to fix the date of our holidays. I asked what he proposed and he said, "I think you ought to take yours first—you're in more need of them than I." I said, "Thank you very much. I shall go to Venice." He said that I would have to be back by 10 August for "reasons that I hope you'll understand".

While in Venice I was approached on the beach by a gentleman with a telegram from Harold Macmillan which said that we had unexpectedly had an invitation from Chancellor Adenauer to go to Bonn to discuss our entry into the Community. It said that Alec and he had agreed but had pointed out that they must leave by 8 August for "a reason that you will fully understand".

I was still on the beach when another telegram arrived saying that there was now an invitation from Mr. Fanfani, the Prime Minister of Italy, who had heard secretly about Chancellor Adenauer's invitation and wanted us to go to Rome on 16 August. The telegram said that that was of course not possible for Alec and him "for reasons that you will fully understand". It had therefore been arranged for me to go to Rome.

Then came the period after the defeat of 1964 when Sir Alec was Prime Minister. That period was controversial, as the Prime Minister said just now. I proposed legislation for the abolition of retail price maintenance which, to a certain extent, split the Cabinet. However, he backed me throughout and, when he backed one up, one knew that his backing was firm.

After the 1964 election, Lord Home made me responsible for policy, but in July he came to the conclusion that he did not wish to continue. In his book he recounts that I had nothing whatever to do with that. In some ways, I wish he had continued, but it was obvious that he was tired of it all and he firmly resolved that he would not continue because it was better that he should not.

Then I invited Alec to be Foreign Secretary in the shadow Cabinet and when I became Prime Minister I appointed him Foreign Secretary. There were never any disagreements between us, but that is not always understood. Whether on domestic or foreign policy, from 1960 onwards, when we first worked together, we always believed in the same policies and we always put them into effect. That is why there was no room in either of us for criticism of the other.

Lord Home's characteristics have been brilliantly described today by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, by the Leader of the Opposition and by the spokesman for the Liberal party, the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Sir D. Steel). One outstanding point is that whoever he was dealing with, it was exactly the same—everybody trusted him. It made no difference whether he was talking to somebody at the highest level in this country or to somebody at the lowest level in what was then Rhodesia—he was always the same. When he was dealing with foreign affairs at conferences, he was always respectful and polite to those with whom he was negotiating, no matter from which country they came.

In 1963, the two of us went to Moscow to sign the first test ban treaty. Lord Home's attitude to and relationship with Mr. Kruschev could not possibly have been faulted. The same was true when he was dealing with the Commonwealth, the colonies or other European states. He was held in the greatest respect.

Above all, Lord Home loved his Scotland. It is true that he wanted to see the constitutional development of Scotland. When I was Leader of the Opposition, I appointed him chairman of a very distinguished committee which included Sir Robert Menzies, the former Prime Minister of Australia. It recommended that there should be further development in Scotland, including an assembly. Had we been re-elected in 1974, we would have gone ahead with that; indeed, the buildings had already been prepared. That was his view of Scotland because he foresaw the dangers of a narrow Scottish nationalism and he wanted to prevent that.

As has been said, in all spheres Lord Home was notable for his modesty, for his genuine nature, for the fact that one could trust him and for the fact that he got his priorities right on every occasion. This country, and Scotland in particular, owes him a great deal.

4.2 pm

May I add a word or two, Madam Speaker? The right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Sir E. Heath) and I are the only people who sat with Viscount Dunglass MP in 1950 and 1951. At that time he was in his late forties, so I do not think many people imagined that he would go on to occupy the highest offices of state. I cannot think of any major question on which I agreed with him, but his great quality, as has already been said, was that people trusted him—a phrase not often used in political comment nowadays. He was a signpost, not a weathercock.

In 1951 Lord Home became a peer and he went quite happily to the House of Lords—unlike Lord Hailsham the previous year, who had gone with some resistance. As I was absolutely determined not to allow that fate to befall me, I was responsible for bringing Lord Home back to be a commoner, which he may not have liked, and to be Prime Minister, which he did like. Indeed, in the whole. of our long parliamentary history only two men have sat in the Commons, the Lords, the Commons and the Lords successively. It is what I think of as the Hailsham-Home convention—that after every election certain persons quietly indicate in which House they want to sit. Only in this country could such a subtle combination of the ballot box and blue blood be used to such great advantage by those who could use it.

Having said all that, Lord Home was a very formidable party leader—of that there was no question. He took over the fortunes of the Conservative party when it was at a low ebb, and, as the Prime Minister said, he very nearly succeeded. Only by a handful of votes did he lose. That was of course at a time when the press reported Parliament and before it began trying to replace Parliament. It was also at a time when it was possible to have passionate and serious and fundamental disagreements without the insults which now characterise and debase so much of our public debate.

In the media-orientated world in which we live, it is supposed that to succeed people have to have a good image, charisma, sound bites and a spin doctor. But like Clem Attlee before him, Alec Home had an absolute contempt for such gimmicks. He was absolutely content to be himself. I pay my respects to him because he argued his case always with great knowledge, great courtesy, great sincerity, but without ever indulging in abuse. The House might do well to follow that example.

4.5 pm

It is my privilege to associate the Ulster Unionist party with the tributes that have been paid today to Lord Home. The one thing that has come across very clearly, not only in the House this afternoon but throughout the country during the past week, is the very great affection in which Lord Home was held. The words which have been used as being characteristic of him are decency, sense of duty and sense of integrity. It is because he had those characteristics in such full measure that he had such a place in the affections of the people of our country.

The thing that most typifies Lord Home's decency and sense of integrity was, after having been a successful Foreign Secretary, and a more successful Prime Minister than was generally acknowledged, the way in which he was prepared after leaving the leadership of his party to serve for so long and so loyally in opposition and later in government. He will be regarded as one of the outstanding Foreign Secretaries of this country in this century.

The Leader of the Opposition and the Prime Minister have both mentioned the fact that Lord Home was a unionist—that he supported the Union and believed in the United Kingdom. That is something of which we in Northern Ireland were very conscious—then and since.

More than just a supporter of the Union, as a Scotsman Lord Home knew that this diverse United Kingdom is held together by a series of understandings about the relative weights of the parts of the kingdom and about the concern that should exist for the various parts of the kingdom. I am sure that in putting forward proposals for a modest measure of devolution for Scotland, he was anxious to ensure that the respect for Scotland as a constituent part of the United Kingdom was not lost in the simple majoritarianism of this House. It is for that sense of balance, which he displayed throughout his life, that he will be most keenly remembered.

4.7 pm

In paying a very brief tribute to Lord Home, may I associate my comments with my colleagues in the Scottish National party and the other nationalist parties in the House?

It may seem strange for a nationalist to be paying tribute to one who was seen very much as the epitome of the Scottish laird, but I have two things in common with Lord Home. First, I grew up in south Lanarkshire and as a very young child I remember the very high regard in which Lord Home was held by all his constituents, be they gamekeeper, landowner, farm worker, shopkeeper or whomsoever. Everyone regarded him as a perfect gentlemen who was prepared to give of his time to listen to problems which his constituents might have had and to meet with them.

Secondly, I also suffered from tuberculosis of the spine. During that long illness I was often reminded of the fact that Lord Home had recovered from it and that there was life ahead of that particularly difficult illness. It may well be that the Prime Minister regrets that I was not given the same kind of backbone as Lord Home. Indeed, our backbones are made of very different stuff. None the less, Lord Home was held up as an example and, like him, I learnt a great deal of patience.

There are many memories of Lord Home in Scotland. The former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup, and the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale have already referred to the Scottish constitutional matter. It is my belief that from the declaration of Perth onwards there was a genuine belief among people like Lord Home that progress should be made towards the recognition of the aspirations of the Scottish people. It is, indeed, not his fault that the Government who took over in 1979 killed off the Scotland Bill, but his intervention, "Not this assembly but a better one," is seared into many psyches in Scotland. We are still waiting for that better assembly.

I hope that as we pay tribute to Lord Home and his recognition of democracy there will perhaps be some recognition on the Government Benches of the need for the people of Scotland to have that constitutional change.

4.9 pm

I rise to speak because the western end of my constituency was formerly Sir Alec Douglas-Home's constituency. I believe that I speak on behalf of all the people in that part of my constituency. I vividly remember what Sir Alec—Lord Home, as he was then—said to me when I inherited with the boundary changes that large part of what had been his constituency. He said, "There are some very remote parts, some very difficult roads and you will find that in the winter months when you are required to go somewhere for a meeting you will wish that you were not in fact representing that part of Scotland. But when you get there, you will find that the people there make it all worth while, and you forget the journey, you forget the difficult roads and you forget all the problems." That was so typical of the man.

The other advice that Sir Alec Douglas-Home gave me, which I have never forgotten, was, "Bill, if you have thought something through carefully and you believe that it is right, stand by it because in time, you will find that you will be shown to be right." I believe that that guide that he had for himself was a guide that all politicians could well follow. He was indeed a man who left memories that are remarkable. My constituents would wish it to be put on record that anyone could telephone The Hirsel at the weekends and speak to their Member of Parliament. How many Members in the House today living in that grand manner in that grand style would answer the telephone at the weekends in the way that Alec Douglas-Home did? It is that example and leadership that we miss very much today. We think of him today.

Prison Service

4.11 pm

With permission, Madam Speaker, I should like to make a statement about prison security.

I am today publishing the report by General Sir John Learmont into prison security. I am extremely grateful to Sir John and to his two fellow assessors, Sir John Woodcock and Mr. Gary Dadds, for their comprehensive and authoritative report.

Let me begin by reminding the House of the circumstances which led me to ask Sir John to conduct his inquiry. In September 1994, six exceptional risk category A prisoners escaped from Whitemoor prison. I asked Sir John Woodcock to conduct an inquiry into the escape and I presented his findings to the House on 19 December last year.

I also asked General Sir John Learmont to conduct a comprehensive and independent review of physical and procedural security in the prison service in England and Wales, and to make recommendations.

On 3 January this year, two category A and one category B prisoner escaped from Parkhurst. All three were recaptured on 8 January. I pay tribute again to the police for that successful operation. An immediate inquiry was carried out by the Prison Service director of security. As I told the House on 10 January, this immediate inquiry highlighted very serious deficiencies in procedural and physical security at Parkhurst.

I asked Sir John Learmont to extend his own inquiry to include an independent assessment of the events surrounding the escape. The report makes the most serious criticisms of Parkhurst and its management. On security procedures, Sir John found that the prison service's own security manual was disregarded and that the most basic security measures were not observed. Sir John also makes a number of criticisms of the physical security of Parkhurst, including the failure of the prison service to provide the prison with the full benefits of technology.

I am also publishing today the report of the inspection of Parkhurst by Her Majesty's chief inspector of prisons, Judge Stephen Tumim. The inspection took place in October 1995 and the report was submitted at the end of February 1996.

Judge Tumim also makes a number of severe criticisms of the situation at Parkhurst, including weak and inadequate security, unacceptable conditions in health care, and drug dealing which pervaded the whole sub-culture of the prison. There was a reluctance by staff to assert proper control in areas such as searching and accounting for inmates. The judge considered that the problems were so serious that he wrote to the Director General, before he left the prison, with a copy to me, drawing attention to the serious shortcomings that he had found. As I told the House on 10 January, I immediately spoke to the Director General and asked for a full report. He assured me that all Judge Tumim's recommendations had been implemented.

Sir John Learmont recommends that Parkhurst should be taken out of the dispersal system as soon as possible and consideration given to its replacement by a more appropriate establishment. I accept that recommendation. Parkhurst has not in practice operated as a dispersal prison since April, when all category A prisoners were removed from normal location. I have asked the prison service to identify another prison in the south-east of England to take Parkhurst's place in the dispersal system as soon as possible.

Sir John's inquiry was not a disciplinary inquiry. Sir John has recommended to me that no disciplinary inquiry should be undertaken into the escape from Parkhurst. He is of the opinion that such an inquiry could finally break the resolve and commitment of many of the staff at Parkhurst, with the very significant possibility that the secure running of the establishment could be severely compromised. He is also of the opinion that it is difficult to see what a disciplinary inquiry would achieve. In considering that recommendation, I have been influenced by the fact that more than one of those concerned will not be staying in the prison service. I have therefore decided to accept that recommendation.

The Learmont report makes it clear that responsibility for the Parkhurst escape was not confined to management and staff at Parkhurst. On the contrary: the report says that
"alarm bells should have been … ringing throughout the Prison Service".
and that many of the ingredients
"can be traced along the lines of communication to Prison Service headquarters".
In his covering letter, Sir John Learmont makes it perfectly clear that responsibilities ultimately reach the level of the Prisons Board and that that is where criticism stops. Sir John has not found that any policy decision of mine, directly or indirectly, caused the escape.

I turn next to the organisation of the prison service and its relationship with the Home Office. It is now about two and a half years since the prison service became a "next steps" executive agency. The decision to make the service an agency was taken on the recommendation of an independent inquiry conducted by Admiral Sir Raymond Lygo. Sir John Learmont does not recommend that there should be any change in the agency status of the prison service. He does recommend that someone with wide experience of the workings of agencies should undertake an in-depth study of the relationship between the prison service and the Home Office. That work is under way and I shall report on it to the House when it is complete.

Sir John's report makes 127 detailed and wide-ranging recommendations. I accept the broad thrust of Sir John's analysis. About half the recommendations endorse actions that have already been completed, are under way, or are already planned. I shall deal today with Sir John's key recommendations and I shall come back to the House with a full response in due course.

A key recommendation of the report is that there should be one maximum security prison to house the most dangerous prisoners in the system. That was a recommendation first made by the Mountbatten inquiry in 1966, and accepted by the then Home Secretary, Lord Jenkins of Hillhead. However, the Radzinowicz report in March 1968 recommended against it and it was not implemented. Since then the policy has been to disperse such prisoners among a small number of high security prisons. Sir John concludes:
"The continuous development of explosives and weapons and their availability to criminals and their associates, pose a much greater threat to the security of our maximum security prisons than the Service has previously encountered."
He believes, therefore, that the most dangerous prisoners should now be housed in a purpose-designed and built maximum security prison.

That is a very far-reaching proposal, which would represent a major departure in penal policy. The report makes a strong case for it. I have already asked the Prison Service to consider the feasibility, costs and benefits of building such an establishment and to report to me in six months' time. The prison service will also consider Sir John Learmont's proposal for a single control prison to hold the most unruly and disruptive prisoners. I should welcome comments on those proposals.

Sir John also recommends a fundamental review of the system under which prisoners are allocated to different security categories according to the threat to the community and the likelihood of escape. I accept that a review of that system should take place.

Sir John also recommends that minimum physical security standards should be set for each category of prison. Work is well under way on bringing the dispersal estate up to the standard of security recommended by Sir John Woodcock. National standards exist for all new prisons. Decisions on the appropriate security standards for non-dispersal prisons will be based on the outcome of the review of categorisation.

One particular aspect that I asked Sir John to consider was the extent to which visits should be closed. He recommends that there should be closed visits for exceptional risk category A prisoners other than in exceptional circumstances. That coincides with the policy that I introduced in June this year.

I turn, finally, to Sir John's recommendations on the ways in which physical security is enhanced by activities and incentives. I told the House in December last year that the prison service would introduce a national framework of privileges and incentives. That framework is already in place and implementation has begun. Sir John recommends that a system requiring early release to be earned, not granted automatically as at present, would be a significant additional inducement to good behaviour. Last week I set out proposals for ending automatic early release and for introducing a system of earned remission.

But there are two issues on which Sir John and I must agree to differ. I reject his proposal that in-cell television should be made widely available. That would not be consistent with my view that prison conditions should be decent but austere. Nor can I accept Sir John's proposal that home leave should be more widely available. In my view, the restrictions introduced earlier this year have an important role in protecting the public; and I have no plans to relax them.

Sir John Learmont has found a great deal that needs to be put right within the prison service, spanning leadership, structure, the management chain, and the ethos of the service. He says that responsibilities ultimately reach Prisons Board level—and that the criticism stops there.

Those comments, coming so soon after the Woodcock report on Whitemoor, cause me great concern. I must be able to assure the House, and through it the public, that the grave weaknesses in the service that have been disclosed will be put right.

I have come to the conclusion, with some sadness, that that requires a change of leadership at the top of the prison service. The present director general has served in his post for nearly three years. I pay tribute to him for what he has achieved, but I cannot overlook the serious criticisms in the report. I believe that the service requires a change of leadership to carry forward the programme of reforms that is needed and to increase public confidence in the security of our prisons.

The director general has accordingly ceased to hold his post with effect from today. The director of security will take over temporarily until a successor is appointed.

I believe that this report will be seen as a major milestone in the evolution of the prison service. I heartily endorse Sir John's conclusion that
"there is an abundance of excellent people within the Prison Service whose most fervent wish is to do a good and worthwhile job".
The changes that I have announced today will help them to achieve that goal.

I thank the Secretary of State for his courtesy in arranging for me to see the report earlier than is usual. We accept the recommendation of the Learmont report in respect of the super maximum security prison and we shall look at the recommendations of the departmental study when it is available to the House in six months' time.

The Secretary. of State's statement today goes to the heart of ministerial responsibility to the House for the protection of the public and the safe and secure administration of British prisons. By every principle of democratic Government, the Secretary of State must accept that he is both responsible and accountable for the state of the prison service, yet today we have been treated to the spectacle of the Secretary of State demeaning his office, failing to acknowledge those responsibilities and instead going in for his now familiar and tawdry practice of scapegoating anybody and everybody to ensure that the buck stops anywhere but with himself.

The Home Secretary has sought consistently to evade his responsibility by invoking a wholly artificial distinction—though one very convenient to him—between policy and operational matters. He did it again in his statement to the House just a moment ago when he said:
"Sir John has not found that any policy decision of mine, directly or indirectly, caused the escape."
I cannot find any quotation in the report which, directly or indirectly, backs up what the Secretary of State said. [HON. MEMBERS: "The covering letter."] The covering letter has no such words.

It is clear that the Learmont report—like the Woodcock report before it—shows conclusively that the Secretary of State and his fellow Ministers have interfered daily in the running and operation of the prison service and that so grotesque has that interference become that, as Learmont himself complains, on the very day set aside for the director general, Mr. Derek Lewis, to give evidence to the Learmont inquiry, and while he was actually giving evidence, he was called out on a number of occasions—I understand that it was no fewer than five—to give advice to and no doubt receive instructions from Ministers.

If the Secretary of State was not interfering with the day-to-day operations of the service, will he explain why, as the report shows, during 83 working days, 1,000 documents were submitted to Ministers, including 137 full ministerial submissions? How many of those submissions were in response to requests from Ministers and how many came within the Secretary of State's definition of operations? How many were policy?

What led to a climate in which members of the Prisons Board knew that they had Ministers breathing down their necks on the smallest detail? Is not the Learmont report right to point out a high level of operational involvement in prison service matters? Is the Secretary of State aware that the report comments on the personal pressures which the competing demands of politicians, the media and successive operational incidents must have inflicted on the director general and states that the director general needs, but certainly has not received minimum political involvement in the day-to-day operation of the service?

Is the Secretary of State aware that the director general is now issuing a letter in response to his sacking in which he says:
"It is a great disappointment to me that in the thirteen months since the Whitemoor escape, you"—
that is the Secretary of State—
"have required so much paper but have paid so little attention to prisons themselves, with only some six visits to prisons—fewer than in the preceding thirteen months"?
Is not the reason, as Sir John Learmont records, why the board rarely discussed operational matters that it was snowed under with one so-called ministerial initiative after another?

As the report comments in withering terms:
"any organisation which boasts one statement of purpose, one vision, five values, six goals, seven strategic priorities and eight key performance indicators without any clear co-ordination between them is producing a recipe for total confusion".
As Ministers were interfering so much and so much pride themselves on their experience in government, why has the Secretary of State allowed that total confusion to continue? Why has he allowed "the proliferation of paperwork", as the report describes it, to reach epidemic proportions so that the then governor of Parkhurst, Mr. John Marriott, had—to quote the report—regularly to spend more than 50 hours a week coping with the blizzard of paper, leaving him only two or three hours to go around the prison?

Is the Secretary of State aware that the appendix to the report estimates that, in the 83 working days studied, a typical local prison would have received 72,000 sheets of A4 paper from the Prisons Board, thanks to the proliferation of paperwork and the overburdened bureaucracy over which the right hon. Gentleman has presided?

I will deal with the Secretary of State's first and disgraceful scapegoating of Parkhurst prison's governor, Mr. Marriott, who was removed from his post just two hours before the right hon. and learned Gentleman made his statement on 10 January. In the House and in evidence to the Select Committee, the Secretary of State repeatedly claimed that the decision to suspend Mr. Marriott was an operational one for which the right hon. and learned Gentleman was not responsible. Will the Secretary of State confirm that on or about 10 January, he let Mr. Lewis know that, if Mr. Marriott was not suspended, Mr. Lewis's job would be at risk?

Is not one of the so-called initiatives bearing down on the service that of prison privatisation, which the report suggests is a factor consistently identified as contributing to low morale? What is the right hon. and learned Gentleman's comment on the report's conclusion that the number of staff on duty in privatised prisons is lower than in public sector prisons, which in turn
"raises serious questions about the ability of private prisons to cope with major incidents"?
I want to ask the Secretary of State about geophones, about which he was wholly silent in his statement. The Learmont report makes it clear that if geophones had been in place, the Parkhurst escapes could not have occurred and that, despite building works, geophones could have been operational. Given that conclusion, does the right hon. and learned Gentleman regret that the advice that he gave the House on 10 January—that geophones cannot be installed when extensive building works are under way because they do not work effectively in such circumstances—has turned out to be wholly inaccurate? While the Secretary of State's disclaimer to the House that he does not claim any personal expertise in geophones has proved stunningly correct, does not he think that he should have been much more careful before passing on such inaccurate advice—not least since it was well known that geophones were kept operational in the similar circumstances of building works at Wormwood Scrubs?

Does the Secretary of State accept that this is the third report in 10 months to present chapter and verse for the view of the outgoing chief inspector of prisons, Sir Stephen Tumim, that there is a crisis of confidence in the prison service? Since the right hon. and learned Gentleman's party has been in Government 16 years, during which time that crisis has developed, why was there not a single line of apology for that appalling state of affairs in the right hon. and learned Gentleman's statement? Why was there no recognition by him of the responsibility that he and his predecessors must bear for that situation?

In eight years on the Opposition Front Bench, I have never called for a Minister's resignation. It would be highly irresponsible for anyone to call for a Minister's resignation simply because prisoners had escaped. However, the report and the right hon. and learned Gentleman's response, highlighting as it does his stewardship of his high office, raises fundamental questions about the Secretary of State's fitness for that office. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has sought power over the prison service while continually evading his responsibilities. He was right to say that a question of leadership arises from the report—but it is his leadership. Given the state of the prison service today, the way in which it has been run ragged by continual ministerial interference and constant policy changes, will the Secretary of State not now understand that if anyone is to go, it must be him?

I shall deal with the points made by the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) in turn. He began and ended with my position. I refer him to the covering letter which is published with the report. That sets out very clearly the steps which Sir John Learmont took to send what are known as "Salmon letters" to those whom he considered subject to criticism. In that letter he states:

"I have applied a liberal interpretation of these rules lo ensure, as far as possible, that absolute fairness has prevailed. Such procedures have touched as high as Prisons Board level illustrating that I have endeavoured to identify where responsibilities have ultimately reached and where the criticism stops."
That is the answer to the points made by the hon. Gentleman.

I reject absolutely the hon. Gentleman's allegations of interference. It is essential, if I am to be properly accountable to this House and to the country, that I am properly and fully informed about what happens in our prisons. That is why requests are made to those who work in the prison service for information about matters that give rise to public concern. If we did not ask for information about those matters, I believe that we would be in dereliction of our duty.

As for ministerial initiatives, there have indeed been some ministerial initiatives affecting our prisons over the past year or two—initiatives to introduce mandatory drug testing, to introduce a regime of sanctions and incentives and to reduce significantly the number of home leaves and temporary releases, as a result of which there has been an 80 per cent. reduction in home leave failures. I make no apology for those ministerial initiatives; they were absolutely essential if we were to make our prison system the kind of system in which the people of this country could have confidence.

The hon. Gentleman referred to paperwork and the documents with which those in the prison service had to deal. The report deals with that. When the hon. Gentleman has had greater opportunity to study the report, I think that he will appreciate that it is quite wrong to suggest that that paperwork emanated from Ministers.

I made it clear when I made my previous statement to the House that what I said about the position of the former governor of Parkhurst was pending the results of any inquiry. If the hon. Gentleman looks at what the report says about the condition of Parkhurst and reads what is said about the failure to follow basic security procedures, the prevalence of drugs and the failure to supervise properly health care at Parkhurst, he will find that it is difficult to dissociate those criticisms from the position of the former governor of Parkhurst.

The picture of privatisation that the hon. Gentleman has given the House is a gross distortion of what is contained in the report. I refer the House to paragraph 3.137, which states:
"Potential involvement of the private sector and the prospect of competition promotes internal re-examination. It stimulates the adoption of modern best practice and business methods. Experience has also shown that competition is likely to cut the cost of services and increase their efficiency."
That is what the report says about privatisation.

The hon. Gentleman was quite right to remind the House of the disclaimer that I made when I was last dealing with geophones to the effect that I have no expertise in geophones and that I was telling the House honestly and to the best of my ability what I knew about them then on the basis of my understanding. It is perfectly true that the Learmont report adds considerably to my understanding of geophones and probably to the understanding of many others as well.

I very much regret the step that I have had to take today. The former Director General of the Prison Service has achieved a good deal. It was with great sadness that I was obliged to take the step that I did, but I could not overlook the criticisms contained in the report—I had a duty to act on behalf of the public.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree, although there is a good deal of gloom and discouragement in the Learmont report, that the silver lining lies in the glowing tribute that the report pays to the conscientiousness and commitment of the great mass of the prison officers and public servants in the governor grades, demonstrating that the service is fundamentally and essentially well founded? Will my right hon. and learned Friend do everything possible to capitalise on the superb asset that we have in the staff of the prison service, and pay the closest attention to the calibre and quality of the individual whom he selects to become the new chief executive?

I am grateful for what my right hon. Friend says. I entirely agree with and endorse his tribute to the staff who work in the prison service. They carry out a very difficult job and, on the whole, they do it well. I am determined to do my utmost to put in place arrangements that will enable them to do it even better in future.

We support the main recommendations in this report; but how is the sacking of Derek Lewis supposed to discharge all ministerial responsibility for the appalling state of affairs which the report has revealed? Who was he reporting to—sometimes several times a day—but the Home Secretary? Who but the Home Secretary was responsible for the stream of initiatives, privatisation proposals and policy changes that led to a mountain of paper "higher than Ben Nevis", in the words of the report, and which distracted attention from security? And who but the Home Secretary is now proposing so to add to prison numbers that overcrowding will create policies of appeasement just like the ones described in the report, in an attempt to keep control of overcrowded prisons? When will the Home Secretary start carrying the can? If Ministers do not take responsibility, just as before nothing will change.

I have based my decision on what is contained in this report. It was an independent report. I asked General Learmont to conduct an inquiry into security in the prison service, and he has made an independent assessment of what he found. I could not overlook that assessment, and that is what I have based myself upon.

I have always made it clear that security has to be the first priority of the service. I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman's remarks about overcrowding are far wide of the mark. Parkhurst was not overcrowded; indeed, the staff:inmate ratio there was higher than in any other dispersal prison.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that we Conservatives find the party political claptrap from the Opposition lamentable? Any reasonable person must accept the conclusions of the report, which place absolutely no blame on my right hon. and learned Friend and which say that the buck stops with the Director General of the Prison Service. They also say that prison security is so important for the protection of the public that my right hon. and learned Friend has absolutely no alternative but to require the person most responsible for it to resign.

I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend. The decision that I came to today caused me a good deal of sadness. As I said earlier, the former director general achieved a good deal during his period of office, but I came to the conclusion that I could not overlook the report's assessment and criticisms. It was for those reasons that I reluctantly came to the conclusion that this was a step which duty required me to take.

The Home Secretary, referring to the Learmont report, said that alarm bells should have been ringing throughout the prison service. Had not the governor of Parkhurst, Mr. Marriott, repeatedly requested the installation of geophones and a properly manned control room? According to a report in The Independent on Saturday, he had also predicted the escape route that was eventually used. Alarm bells were certainly ringing throughout the prison service; the problem was that the Secretary of State did not hear them.

I reject that criticism. The report sets out the requests made for geophones and goes into the history of that matter in considerable detail. It also makes it clear that money was available for geophones and was ultimately found for them. I hope that the hon. Lady is not suggesting that the detailed allocation of capital funds within a budget—for which Ministers certainly have responsibility—is a matter for Ministers. The task of Ministers is to set the budget; the task for assessing priorities within that budget is for the prison service. Were Ministers to interfere in decisions of that kind, the problem to which the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) referred in his opening critique would be compounded a thousandfold.

Since he was appointed director general, has not Derek Lewis reduced escapes by three quarters, accommodated a huge increase in the prison population without more overcrowding and without the use of police cells, halved the costs of providing new places and drastically cut head office bureaucracy? Will the Home Secretary acknowledge these very real achievements—and others, particularly in the area of security, the subject of this report and a statement to the House?

Yes, my right hon. Friend, who speaks with experience from his period as Minister with responsibility for prisons, is right to draw attention to those matters and to acknowledge the part which the director general has played. It was those factors that made it especially difficult for me to reach my decision, but as I have said on a number of occasions, in the last analysis I felt unable to overlook the criticisms contained in the report.

Now that the Home Secretary has announced the dismissal of the Director General of the Prison Service, can he tell us whether it will be his policy to appoint as successor someone who has management experience in the service?

I shall look carefully into the question of who should succeed the director general. A number of factors will be taken into account; the one that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned is one among those factors. I do not think it would be right to make it an essential requirement.

The Home Secretary will be aware that many of the prison officers working at Her Majesty's Prison Whitemoor live in my constituency, and that the vast majority of them were appalled at the lax regime that led to the IRA breakout and to many of the other abuses that have taken place. Is it any wonder that the people at the ground level, far from supporting the vies of the hon. Member for Blackburn on penal policy, support my right hon. and learned Friend's ministerial initiatives and leadership? Will he listen more to what they say and less to what the so-called experts in the probation service, the judiciary and the Home Office say?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I think it true that a number of the measures which I have introduced have support at grass roots level among those who have the responsibility of working in the prison service. I hope that that support will continue.

Is the Home Secretary aware that in my county of Gwent two defendants who were recently found guilty of serious offences were not sent to prison because their solicitors pleaded that if they went there they would be exposed to large-scale drug abuse? That is because, as one Minister has said, drug misuse is endemic in almost every prison in the country. Who is responsible for that: the prison service or the Home Secretary?

When the "next steps" agencies were set up the House was given a clear undertaking that ultimate responsibility would rest with the Home Secretary. Who is he responsible for; what policy is he responsible for; and should he not take the logical decision, given the dreadful mess in which the prison service finds itself, and resign today?

I agree entirely about the seriousness of the drug problem in prisons. It is a dreadful problem and we must take action to deal with it. I shall tell the hon. Gentleman what I have done in an attempt to deal with it. I have instituted a policy of mandatory drug testing—that is the first step towards bringing the misuse of drugs in our prisons under control. It is unrealistic to suppose that it is something that will be achieved in a day, a week or a month. It is something that will take determined action over a period to achieve. I believe that we have made a sensible start on a necessary series of changes.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend recall the case of the so-called bicycling rapist? Last year, a convicted rapist was allowed out on day release to bicycle unattended from Erlestoke prison to Trowbridge college, which is in my constituency, to attend a course. Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the wider malaise that he has described this afternoon is symptomatic of such a decision being taken? Will he accept the grateful thanks of those of my constituents who were extremely frightened at the time of the bicycling rapist for reiterating his, my right hon. and learned Friend's, views on temporary release today?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I well understand the concerns that he expresses on behalf of his constituents. The changes that have been made in home leave and temporary release were essential if public confidence in the prison system was to be maintained. I believe that home leave and temporary release had become entirely out of hand and that we had to take steps to bring them under control. I was responding to the sort of concern that my hon. Friend has voiced in taking the steps that I took some time ago.

Does the Home Secretary accept that the implications of his pronouncements last week mean that there will be substantial increases in prison populations and that one maximum security prison may not suffice? Will there be sufficient funds to pay for this expansion? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept also that the changes in remission may mean increases in tension and violence in prisons and that there will as a consequence be public concern on a scale that will require his resignation? There cannot be any further buck-passing after this.

The hon. Gentleman's last point is misconceived. At present a good deal of early release from prison is entirely automatic. Other early release is determined not by good behaviour in prison but by the Parole Board's assessment of risk. One of the purposes of my proposal is to introduce incentives for good behaviour. That will be done by introducing earned early release by remission for good behaviour, which does not now exist. The hon. Gentleman's last point is thoroughly misconceived and entirely without foundation.

As for the net effect of the proposals that I put forward at Blackpool last week, we are engaged in making a careful assessment. There are many factors to be taken into account. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will share my view that the certainty of sentences that would he one consequence of my proposals would increase deterrence.

I welcome the fact that the report endorses my right hon. and learned Friend's policy of earned early release, but has he noted that it does not seem to be so popular on the Opposition Benches? Will he accept, however, that those outside the House will conclude that Sir John Learmont is clearly a well-read man and, unlike some others, understands that historically these are matters for Parliament? It is Parliament that will decide these matters and no one else.

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. He is right. It is a point that I made repeatedly after I announced my proposals last week. I would expect it to be a point on which all Members would agree.

If the Home Secretary is to be as accountable to the House as he says he is, will he tell us when he was first properly informed of the repeated requests from local management at Parkhurst for geophones? Does he now think it outrageously irresponsible that from January to today he did nothing to find out about the success of geophones?

So far as I can recollect, I was first told about geophones after the breakout from Parkhurst. I do not recall the matter coming to my attention before then.

May I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend on the swift and firm decision that he has made following the Learmont report? Does he agree that the removal of the Director General of the Prison Service was necessary and entirely appropriate in the circumstances? In looking to the appointment of a successor, will he set out his top priority, which is the ending of the lax enforcement of the regime that was evident at Parkhurst?

I have made it clear on several occasions this afternoon that the decision that I reached in respect of the former director general was reached reluctantly and with a good deal of sadness. I think, however, that it was necessary if the general thrust of the Learmont report was to be accepted, which I did. That is why I took the step. I shall take on board what my hon. Friend has said when we come to appoint a successor.

The Home Secretary seems to believe in the principle that he should take credit for everything that has gone right within the prison service and accept no responsibility for anything that has gone wrong. Does he feel that he can share with the House any examples of mistakes that he might have made since becoming Home Secretary in dealing with the prison service?

If the hon. Gentleman reads the report and the covering letter he will understand how unworthy a question that was.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that in the Royal Navy, when a ship goes down, the captain is court martialled and no one thinks of calling upon the First Sea Lord to resign? Is he aware also that his decision to abolish automatic reduction of sentence will be widely welcomed throughout the country? It was a fraud upon the public that a man sentenced to six years' imprisonment should be released after three. In any event, good behaviour is to be expected inside as well as outside Her Majesty's prisons.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that the reported remarks of the Lord Chief Justice are rather too narrowly focused? Deterrence is one of the functions of prison but other perhaps more important ones are punishing criminals for the crimes, sometimes terrible crimes, that they have committed and physically preventing them from committing further crimes.

I defer to my hon. Friend's knowledge of naval regulations but what he says seems about right to me. I am grateful to him for his support for the proposals that I announced last week. I suspect that you might get rather impatient with me, Madam Speaker, if I made comments about the Lord Chief Justice's views this afternoon.

Is it not remarkable that whenever there is a crisis the Tory Government, and now specifically the Home Secretary, always manage to find a scapegoat to carry the can? Will this well-paid fall guy, Lewis, who was on £125,000 a year, be handing back the £30,000 bonus that he was given last year? How much severance pay or what golden handshake will he get arising from the Home Secretary's statement?

Is it not true that when the Home Secretary was given his job there were three prisoners in every cell and that within four weeks there were three on every roof? The Tories were elected to set the people free and the prisoners got out. Why does not the Home Secretary get off?

No, the hon. Gentleman's last point is not true. Compensation for the director general is a matter for negotiation.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that in considering arrangements for running the prisons the Learmont reports states:

"Such arrangements raise the question as to whether the problems at Whitemoor and Parkhurst would have arisen if the prison service had the same monitoring and audit arrangements that exist in the private sector"?
I seem to recall from a recent report of the Public Accounts Committee that the performance indicators that are demanded in the private sector are such that they are properly maintained. Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that there is a lesson to be learned here?

There are many lessons to be learned from the report. My hon. Friend has rightly identified one of the most important ones. I am sure that it is a matter to which both the acting director general and, in due course, the new director general will be paying careful attention.

Of course, Sir John Learmont does not seek in his report to apportion political blame. He knows that that is the prerogative of the House. Is not this only the latest in a series of prison scandals that have taken place on the Home Secretary's watch? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm that during a conversation at the Prison Service conference in November 1994—I understand that this was referred to by Mr. Derek Lewis in his resignation letter—Mr. Lewis suggested to him that his new definition of the difference between ministerial and agency responsibilities was that the agency had to accept difficult responsibilities and Ministers accepted only the easy ones?

That is not a matter for me. It was, I think, a throwaway remark made in answer to a question by the then director general at the Prison Service conference.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that Sir John Learmont made a fundamental criticism of the management of the prison service, in their failure to react quickly enough to the lessons learned from the Whitemoor breakout in time to be able to stop the breakouts from Parkhurst, and that he made criticisms all the way up the line of the whole management of the prisons, who failed to react quickly and failed to implement the changes that had already been pointed out to them?

My hon. Friend's analysis of the report is correct; those are the conclusions reached by Sir John Learmont, and are the conclusions that led me, with his general assessment and criticisms, to the decision that I have had to take.

May I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend on responding to the considerable public concern about security in our prisons, but also on having had the courage to appoint a strong-minded officer, such as General Learmont, who was always likely to bring out a very tough and critical report? Is not it worth reflecting that a hypothetical Labour Government would not have had the guts to have the report and, if they had, would have swept it straight under the carpet?

I shall not follow my hon. Friend on that hypothetical path. I chose Sir John Learmont to carry out this inquiry because I knew that he would produce an independent report that would investigate matters and reveal the truth as he saw it. I believe that that is what he has done.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that the report by Sir John Learmont underlines that the prevailing ethos at Parkhurst was quite unacceptable, and that is why the governor had to go? Will he further accept the congratulations of most hon. Members and people in the country on being a Home Secretary who is willing to challenge the prevailing ethos in respect of prisons and sentencing?

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's support. Decisions that have to be taken by the holder of this office are particularly difficult and I am grateful for what my hon. Friend has said.

Will the Home Secretary give an undertaking that the financial arrangements for Mr. Lewis's departure will not be conditional on his not responding to the criticisms of his stewardship of prisons that the Home Secretary has articulated in the House? Will the price of compensation or severance pay be his silence?

If the hon. Gentleman looks at the report, he will see that the criticisms that have been made are not those articulated by me in the House but are contained in General Learmont's report.

Points Of Order

5.2 pm

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I know that you are aware of the tragic and fatal accident that took place at Thoresby colliery last Thursday, 12 October. It is essential that we identify the cause of the accident, learn the lessons from it and reassure people who work in the coal industry. When British Coal was in the public sector, we might have expected a statement to the House. Now that the industry is in the private sector, no statement is to be made. I wonder what steps should now be taken to ensure that the House and all those who are connected with the coal industry have access to a clear, open and honest account of the accident.

The accident to which the hon. Gentleman refers is indeed a tragedy for the community he represents, particularly for those families who are directly affected by it. I have had no request for a statement on the matter and have not heard from any Minister that a statement is forthcoming. Therefore, I have to leave it to the hon. Gentleman who represents that area to attempt to raise the matter in another way. I shall be sympathetic to that if he chooses to do so.

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. In today's Order Paper, the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) describes himself as the Deputy Prime Minister. In the Order Paper that was published over the summer, he was described as the First Secretary of State. Indeed, when I went to the Table Office and sought to table a question to the Deputy Prime Minister, I was advised that the description was the First Secretary of State. I wonder who caused that change in description. Will you advise me as to which term has the highest status?

That is certainly not a point of order for me, as I have no responsibility in allocating the titles of Ministers. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I had nothing to do with the allocation of title to the right hon. Gentleman to whom he refers.

Defence Estimates

First Day

[Relevant documents: The Defence Committee has reported on the Statement on the Defence Estimates 1995 in its Ninth Report of Session 1994–95, HC 572. The First Report from the Defence Committee on the Defence Estate, HC 67; the Fourth Special Report containing the Government's Reply thereto, HC 318; the Fifth Report on Defence Costs Study Follow-up: Defence Medical Services, HC 102; the Sixth Special Report containing the Government's Reply thereto, HC 641; the Sixth Report on Defence Use of Civilian Transport Assets and Personnel, HC86; and the Seventh Report on Reconnaissance, Intelligence, Surveillance and Target Acquisition, HC 319.]

I have selected the amendment standing in the name of the Leader of the Opposition.

5.5 pm

I beg to move,

That this House approves the Statement on the Defence Estimates 1995 contained in Cm. 2800.
It is an honour for me to open this debate on the "Statement on the Defence Estimates 1995". The Government will take this opportunity to respond to the Defence Select Committee's report.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Waterside (Mr. Colvin) on becoming Chairman of the Defence Select Committee, in succession to my hon. Friend the Member for Upminster (Sir N. Bonsor), whom we also congratulate.

We ended the last Session with a debate on the former Yugoslavia. In July, things looked pretty desperate. The Bosnian Serbs had overrun the United Nations safe areas of Srebrenica and Zepa. Our television screens were full of harrowing images of death and destruction. Gorazde, where British soldiers of the Royal Welch Fusiliers were based, was threatened. Much has changed.

At the London conference, called by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, we achieved what until then had seemed impossible. The international community found a new resolve. The Bosnian Serbs were told in clear terms that further attacks on the United Nations safe areas would be met with a decisive military response.

The UN Generals Janvier and Smith took timely action to reduce the vulnerability of the UN forces. Their success in withdrawing the Royal Welch Fusiliers from their exposed position in Gorazde was a particular relief to us all.

Following the Bosnian Serb attack on Sarajevo marketplace, NATO began an air campaign. British planes carried out a significant share of the bombing raids. Let us hope that the Bosnian Serb generals now understand and will not again doubt the resolve of the international community.

The improved position on the ground has enabled the UN Secretary-General to reduce the size of UNPROFOR. As a result, we will bring home most of 24 Air Mobile Brigade later this month, but we shall leave their heavy equipment and some maintenance personnel to facilitate a rapid return to theatre if necessary. The presence of the brigade has played a vital part in making clear to the Bosnian Serbs our determination to enhance the effectiveness of UNPROFOR and to provide additional protection to British troops.

We would not be where we are today without the continued commitment of UN and NATO forces from many countries. The House will wish to pay tribute to their courage and professionalism.

Our special tribute must go to the British forces—the front-line troops deployed in hazardous locations, such as Gorazde; those on Mount Igman, with the multinational brigade, where our batteries have been involved in action in defence of the Sarajevo safe area; all the key supporting forces and the Royal Navy ships in the Adriatic; and the air men and women of both the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy, who have served with such distinction, particularly those who played a part in the air campaign and who have flown humanitarian aid into Sarajevo. Quietly, sensibly and steadfastly, they have been getting on with what needs to be done in the former Yugoslavia.

I should like to recall the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr. Hurd), who told the House on 29 April 1993 that the Government's key aims were to prevent the conflict from spreading, to relieve humanitarian suffering and to provide a framework for a political solution.

We have met those objectives. We have prevented the conflict from spreading into a wider Balkan war. We have reduced the killing and made a major contribution to relief, and we have played a leading role in the peace process, notably by our membership of the five nation contact group.

The United States initiative launched at the end of August may have brought us to the brink of a peaceful settlement. I congratulate Dick Holbrooke and Carl Bildt on their tireless efforts leading to the ceasefire of 12 October.

The alliance may now face a new challenge. We are already engaged in planning for a peace implementation force. It will be NATO-led, and NATO forces will provide the core; but we would expect other nations to play their part. Russia, in particular, should have a substantial role. Good progress was made in discussions between NATO Ministers at Williamsburg earlier this month.

The headquarters of the Allied Command Europe rapid reaction corps—the ARRC—will play a key part. As NATO's only deployable corps HQ, it is vital to the success of any ground operation. Britain provides the commander and some 60 per cent. of the staff. I am confident that General Sir Mike Walker and his team will rise to the challenge.

NATO's role in Bosnia helps us to focus on the alliance's development in the future. The Government welcome the very useful report recently produced by the Defence Select Committee.

The NATO Defence Ministers in Williamsburg had a good discussion on NATO enlargement. NATO has recently published the results of its work on the "how and why" of enlargement. These are now being presented to partners, and Defence Ministers will collectively consider the next steps at the NATO meetings in early December.

Those will be important decisions. History teaches us that we should not give security guarantees lightly. Furthermore, operations in the former Yugoslavia have shown NATO's unique central role in the maintenance of security and stability in Europe. Nothing should be done that would undermine the alliance's military effectiveness. We cannot afford ambiguity or political gestures. We must say what we mean, and mean what we say.

There are other complex issues. NATO's relationship with Russia, the relationship between France and the alliance are important matters that need to be discussed frankly. I hope that the debate will not be sidetracked into theological argument. We should take note of developments on the ground. I welcome the involvement of French forces in operations in the former Yugoslavia, including in the proposed NATO implementation force; and I welcome the close co-operation between NATO and Russia, to the point where discussions are under way with the Russians on their possible participation in the implementation force.

In other words, the former Yugoslavia problem is obliging NATO to find practical solutions to the involvement of French forces, and to the question of relations with Russia, even though some of the institutional arguments remain unresolved.

At the time of this debate last year, the ceasefires in Northern Ireland had only just been announced. The security situation has improved dramatically since then, and the progress made during the past 12 months gives us hope. Every day without bombs is a gain; every month without bloodshed is a blessing. It may be that, month after month, the quiet momentum of peace will become unstoppable, and all men of good will must hope for that.

However, we cannot relax our guard. Terrorist organisations continue to train their members, and have significant stocks of weapons and explosives with which they could resume the violence at short notice. Nor has violence disappeared altogether from the streets of Northern Ireland: punishment attacks go on, and intimidation continues unabated in some areas. The marching season showed us that relations within the community remain highly volatile. There were arson attacks on churches, chapels and Orange halls throughout the Province. Those incidents are not to be compared with the large-scale terrorist atrocities of 18 months ago, but they cause fear in the population. They are not acceptable in a civilised society.

As always, the armed forces have adapted to the demands made of them in this sensitive period. Our first duty is to ensure the safety of the people of Northern Ireland. We have been able to respond to the improved conditions by relocating two major units to their home bases, and more relocations may become possible if peace continues to develop. Troops will accompany the RUC wherever it may encounter hostility, but in areas where routine support for police patrols has ceased many soldiers have now returned to barracks. That has allowed them to take part in exercises, both in the UK and abroad, and to train for their primary roles.

IRA-Sinn Fein has said that peace may break down if it does not get its way. If it does break down for that reason, IRA-Sinn Fein will not be forgiven. Our service men and women have done an outstanding job in Northern Ireland, and have shown great bravery and dedication. The task has fallen mainly to the younger soldiers—corporals and lance-corporals—who have had to make split-second decisions on which people's lives have depended. The qualities that they have displayed—discipline, self-restraint and sheer professionalism—bring distinction to our armed forces. They will continue to work tirelessly in support of the RUC, and we shall remain vigilant until a secure and enduring settlement is in place.

The five years since the end of the cold war have been years of upheaval, as we, with our allies, have adapted. Nuclear exchange today is much less likely, but we face increased uncertainty. We can expect continuing calls on the United Kingdom to support conflict prevention, peacekeeping and humanitarian aid missions—and, on occasion, to join a coalition to reverse unacceptable aggression. Those crises may arise with little or no notice. We cannot predict with certainty who will be involved in the response, but we can predict that those missions will arise some distance from the United Kingdom.

Over the past five years, we have reviewed our defence strategy. This year's statement sets out our intention to set a steady course for the future, building on the changes that we have made. It does not propose, as the Opposition motion does, another defence review. My Department has clear aims and objectives, which are set out in this year's statement. They are to ensure that we have in place the strategy and the defence capability needed to protect our security and that of our dependent territories; to contribute to the promotion of British interests overseas; and to help to maximise our international influence and prestige.

The Secretary of State speaks of the need to safeguard British interests overseas, and also of the need for adaptation. Since I last asked him about it, has he reflected further on the serious problems that arise from our country's disproportionate commitment to the export of arms? Has he considered the miserable humanitarian consequences, and the destabilising geopolitical effects? Has he also considered the dangers to our economy of our shrunken manufacturing base being so dependent on a particular sector of the export market, which is itself shrinking? Will he accept Labour's proposal for a defence diversification agency—

Order. The hon. Gentleman has been in the House long enough to know that an intervention consists of one question, not six.

I note that the hon. Gentleman has become no less verbose following his transition to the Opposition. We are discussing the qualities, such as loyalty, that characterise our forces and it is interesting to see the hon. Gentleman rise in his place. I have reflected upon Britain's most successful industry in terms of exports, upon the rights of countries to provide for their self-defence and upon the marriage of those two interests. I have spoken about the right of countries to buy arms to defend themselves and a country that is well able to export defence material to them.

The Minister speaks about Britain's successful arms industry. Does he regard as part of that success the fact that this country supplied arms to the former Yugoslavia which were almost certainly used in the recent conflict?

Of course arms will be used by people when they think that they have to protect themselves—that is an inevitable consequence. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is one of the 37 signatories to the Opposition motion that calls for the cancellation of the Trident programme and the reduction of British defence spending to the average of the European Union. It was noticeable the week before last when the Labour party stage-managed its conference that it was able to avoid any debate on these matters. But as soon as Labour Members get back to Parliament the wild men take over. I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) and his many allies in the House for showing the true face of Labour and its wish still to be a unilateral disarmer.

Before the Secretary of State leaves the subject of nuclear weapons and Trident, would he briefly explain to the House and the country why we are spending up to £30 billion on nuclear weapons that can destroy life and humanity as we know it? Against whom are these weapons fuelled and aimed? What is the great threat to this nation that requires a weapon that can destroy the planet?

If it were within the rules of the House I would happily cede all my time to the hon. Gentleman to make a speech about nuclear disarmament so that our people could clearly understand that the policy of a vast tract of the Labour party is to get rid of nuclear weapons. There are now nuclear weapons states in the world and there will be more in future. Britain has provided a nuclear umbrella not only for her own defence but for the defence of Europe. Many countries have benefited from that umbrella and have enjoyed a peace that they would not otherwise have had. I should like the hon. Gentleman to make as many speeches as he can proclaiming that the true policy of the Labour party is to do away with that unilateral nuclear defence.

While my right hon. Friend is reflecting on the Government's successful defence policy, and in particular the nuclear component of that policy, will he say whether the Government will continue to support our position as a permanent member of the UN Security Council? Will he also reflect on the fact that that lot on the Opposition Benches would put that in jeopardy?

Of course I support continued membership: this Government always will. It is appropriate that Britain should play such a part in world affairs. It brings us great prestige and influence and heavy responsibilities which we are happy to fulfil.

I shall give way to the hon. Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing), who has been rising for some time, and then I should like to make some progress.

As the Secretary of State is concentrating on the nuclear issue and as the Government are signatories to the non-proliferation treaty, will he tell us in simple terms the Government's attitude to the French nuclear testing in the south Pacific? Do they have a yes or no attitude? I ask that particularly in the light of the Minister's scepticism towards Europe.

If the world is to benefit from the nuclear umbrella that is provided by the taxpayers of Britain, France and the United States, it is important for the world to know that nuclear weapons are effective. That is how deterrence is achieved. We in Britain do not feel a need to test our weapons to have certainty about that, but we make no judgment about whether the French are in the same position. However, we applaud the fact that the French have made clear their intention to sign, after this series of tests, the comprehensive test ban treaty.

This year's statement gives a full exposition of the policies about which I have been speaking. It makes clear that the proposals for restructuring our front-line forces under "Options for Change" are complete. To implement our policies, the fighting strength and capabilities of our front-line forces need to be maintained. If their commitment is reduced, we intend to use the resources that are released to help to reduce overstretch, to increase training for war and to support other high-priority tasks.

The Defence Select Committee rightly expressed concern about overstretch in our armed forces, drawing particular attention to the operational tour intervals in the Army and especially in the infantry. The Army is currently heavily committed to operations. Some 23 per cent. of the field Army is deployed on operations with another 10 per cent. preparing for or recovering from them. Because of that, this year we shall not be able to meet our target of an average operational tour interval of 24 months for infantry battalions. On the basis of current commitments, the average for 1995–96 will be 20 months.

I am conscious of the impact of that change on soldiers and the effect upon them of separation from their families and of uncomfortable living conditions. It is a tribute to our armed forces that those deprivations are endured without affecting morale or operational capability. But we are not complacent and our target for average tour intervals remains 24 months. I recognise that it would never be possible rigidly to enforce such guidelines. None the less, I hope that the House will welcome the assurance in this year's statement that even if, as we hope, the Northern Ireland situation allows us over time to reduce our commitment to the RUC, it will not lead to cuts in fighting units. The Government intend to commit to defence the funds that are needed to preserve and properly equip our front-line capabilities.

My right hon. Friend spoke about overstretch. He will be aware that one of the paradoxes of "Options for Change" was that while we were reducing the number of regiments we were concerned about demographic change and the reduction of about 30 per cent. in the age group pool from which we recruit. Even at the lower levels there could be considerable problems with recruitment, and recent news shows that that could continue to be a difficulty. Will my right hon. Friend or the Minister of State for the Armed Forces say what the Government intend to do to meet that recruitment challenge?

My hon. Friend the Minister of State will be happy to deal with that but I should like to comment on it. There is a public perception that because the number of men in our armed forces has been reduced we do not need new recruits. I should like to take this opportunity to correct that impression. We do need recruits because we are not getting enough of them at the moment and the armed forces continue to offer a wonderful opportunity for young men and women. I hope that that opportunity will carry across the airwaves to young people who are thinking about a career in the services.

My Department continues to drive down costs, eliminate waste and improve efficiency. Headquarters staff numbers will continue to decline dramatically. "Front Line First" will save more than £1 billion a year by the end of the century, and the Department's efficiency programme has produced over £3 billion of efficiency gains in the past 10 years.

The changes that have been set in hand will continue to have their effect over the next few years. There is exemplary commitment by the services and civil servants to driving down costs and a willingness to embrace change, even though it can be personally disruptive. We must grasp enthusiastically the opportunities to manage our defence effort better. "Front Line First" has shown how a rigorous approach can enable us to invest in modern and capable equipment.

The Tomahawk land attack missile provides a vivid example of the enhancements in capability that were made possible by the savings achieved through "Front Line First". I am pleased to announce that the required approvals have been granted by the United States Administration and Congress and that we are therefore today placing an order for the missile. Tomahawk offers a capability that is suited to the world that we now face. It can carry out long-range precision attacks against selected targets with minimum threat to our forces and a low risk of collateral damage. Its long range and high accuracy will give us a highly effective means of persuading a potential aggressor to desist from unacceptable activity.

Last July we announced our intention to establish a joint rapid deployment force. I can now provide some more detail. We foresee a greater demand in future for operations mounted quickly to demonstrate our national purpose or the will of the international community, to stabilise a rapidly deteriorating situation or to protect the interests of our people. The joint rapid deployment force will be a key part of that and we have set a number of goals for the force.

The force will be joint, bringing units from all three services together in an effective formation of up to reinforced brigade strength with supporting naval and air components. It will be able to undertake a broad spectrum of missions and will be capable of being used either as part of a national response to a crisis or as part of an international coalition, whether brought together by NATO, the Western European Union or the UN.

The force will be able to respond quickly, with units held at the necessary readiness and, in responding, it must be able to bring the right range of skills to bear. Those goals are demanding. Units assigned to the JRDF must be manned, trained and equipped to meet them. Most of all, they will need clear leadership—leaders who are able to bring together a wide range of skills with new ways of thinking and working where required.

An implementation team will be set up under a Royal Marines brigadier to establish the JRDF by 1 August next year. The force, once formed, will be under its own chief of operations. It will be based on a core formed of 5 Airborne Brigade and 3 Commando Brigade. It will be underpinned by our national contingency forces, from which units will be assigned to the JRDF in rotation.

Speed of deployment and mobility in theatre will be vital. The JRDF will be able to draw on RAF transport aircraft, assigned support and battlefield helicopters and our specialist amphibious shipping. We shall examine possible enhancements to that shipping and also the charter, lease or purchase of suitable civil shipping and cargo aircraft. The new force will greatly improve our ability to respond quickly and effectively to contingencies. Our goal is to create a force with the power to influence events.

What my right hon. Friend has said is welcome, but will he elaborate a little on where the resources—manpower and money—are to come from? Is it simply a case of the existing forces of the three armed services having yet another role to perform?

Clearly, I am not in a position today to make announcements on resources. I am talking about the process of bringing our armed forces up to date to meet the new range of threats in the world and ensuring that we train and man existing units for rapid deployment. Making available to our armed forces units that can be assigned quickly and deployed in theatre seems a welcome step forward.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the fact that, if the new rapid deployment force is to be headed by a brigadier of the Royal Marines, there could be no better place to locate that force's headquarters than at the Royal Marines school of music in Deal, which, it has been announced, might be closing next April? Will he accept that Deal is probably the nearest place to any future theatre of war in which to locate such a headquarters and the fact that we have an airport—Manston airport—just up the road? It is a former RAF airport and could therefore be expanded and improved in times of emergency to deal with the activities of the Royal Marines—

Order. I should hope that an hon. Member who expects the Marines to come back to his constituency will respond to a little discipline occasionally.

My hon. Friend has been assiduous in representing his constituency on military matters and I congratulate him on getting in his bid so early.

I wish to pursue a little further the matter of the rapid deployment force. Does it involve the use of forces already stationed in Germany as part of the rapid reaction corps?

The Secretary of State cannot dodge the question asked by two of his colleagues. We are dealing with defence estimates yet he says that he cannot state whether there are to be new resources for the rapid reaction force or whether we shall be recycling soldiers, sailors and airmen who are knackered.

I answered the question but the hon. Gentleman was too busy preparing his next question to listen.

I have spoken of NATO's role in the former Yugoslavia. NATO is, and will be, the bedrock of our security. No other organisation can provide an effective security guarantee backed by the political and military structures to put it into effect. NATO has made it plain that its forces are available to support United Nations missions and it provides the vital link between Europe and North America.

For NATO to work well, European countries must show their ability to work together and to pull their weight—[Interruption.]—as I said at Blackpool last week. There are numerous European contributors to United Nations operations in Bosnia. Again as I said in Blackpool last week, we have found ourselves in combat alongside excellent forces from France and the Netherlands on the slopes of Mount Igman.

Organisations other than NATO have much to contribute. This is an important time for the Western European Union, which is being developed to take on the tasks defined in the 1992 Petersburg declaration—humanitarian crises, disaster relief, peacekeeping and other crisis management missions. For this, we believe that the WEU needs to develop its operational capabilities so that it is able to mount effective operations. That will be a priority during our presidency of the WEU from next January.

The arrangements that are put in place must not, however, undermine NATO or the transatlantic link. Our goal is to build WEU capabilities that are compatible and not in competition with those of NATO. Those capabilities must be credible to the outside world and we must be able to rely on them to work in practice. We have therefore adopted an approach to the development of the WEU that examines tasks of which it should be capable and addresses the gaps that need to be filled. We want to build genuine military effectiveness.

We sincerely hope that the debate on defence at next year's intergovernmental conference will not get side-tracked into theological debate. Institutional tinkering cuts no ice with aggressors. No Bosnian Serb militiaman will be deterred by abstract talk of European defence vocations and perspectives.