To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what expenditure has been made recently from the urban investment grant scheme to encourage private sector investment in rundown areas. [8829]

More than £14 million has been awarded in the past two calendar years.

I recognise that this policy has brought enormous benefits to different communities in Wales, but will my hon. Friend please give the House some idea of the number of jobs that have been created as a result?

I am pleased to tell my hon. Friend that the investment of taxpayers' money in the urban investment grant scheme has levered in some £80 million of private investment, and that has created or safeguarded approximately 2,000 jobs in Wales.

I am sure that the Minister will have read the complaint in the Western Mail this morning from a small Welsh business man who was looking for grants from the Welsh Office but did not obtain them, when Tesco has received £11 million in grants to transplant its operation a few miles down the road into Wales. As the Minister will know, I wrote to him last week on the same issue, as a company in my constituency and in that of my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Dr. Howells) is receiving the same treatment. Why do not small Welsh companies get the same treatment as the large multinational companies when they apply for grants from the Welsh Office?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the opportunity to correct the inaccuracies in the Western Mail story this morning and to give him a reassurance that all companies that come to the Welsh Office for assistance, be they indigenous companies or those from outside Wales, are treated on exactly the same basis.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on his plans to tackle unemployment in Wales. [8830]

Between spring 1985 and spring 1995, employment in Wales grew by 10.5 per cent., which is well ahead of the Great Britain average of 6.3 per cent. Unemployment continues to fall. The Government will pursue their key economic objectives of permanently low inflation, sound public finances and improving the supply side performance of the economy. That policy has brought about a stronger recovery in the UK than in any other major European country.

Is the Secretary of State aware that, in some parts of Wales, unemployment is getting worse, particularly in my constituency, where the December figures showed that we have 25 per cent. male unemployment? Year on year, it is getting worse, not better. May I take issue with the letter that the hon. Member for Cardiff, North (Mr. Jones) wrote to me, in which, describing the situation in south Pembrokeshire, he said that

"current progress is extremely encouraging",

when unemployment is getting worse? Why will the Secretary of State not address the issue of structural change—something that is particularly needed in peripheral areas and areas of high unemployment? Why will he not restore the cuts, which amount to some £23 million, that were imposed on the Welsh Development Agency by his predecessor last year and that have been compounded by his refusal to restore the cuts next year? That is the only way in which we shall be able to tackle our long-term unemployment, particularly in the peripheral areas of Wales.

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary recognise that unemployment in certain parts of Wales, including his constituency, is higher than the average figures in certain parts of Wales. Part of the answer to that is the overall economic framework, which I have explained. In addition, since the west Wales task force was formed in 1992, more than £17 million has been allocated to local authorities for specific projects and strategies in the area. We have allocated a further £2.5 million for next year. Further support is available for projects such as Pembroke dock, if a good-quality strategy is submitted by the local authority—something that has not been done to date.

Our overall economic policies, backed by such measures, are the right measures to take, and not the imposition of a social chapter or minimum wage on this country and on the hon. Gentleman's constituents, which would cost them their jobs instead of creating them.

I compliment my right hon. Friend on the progress made in increasing the number of jobs available in the Principality. Will he confirm that, in terms of inward investment alone, the Welsh Development Agency aims to create or safeguard some 10,000 jobs this year? Does he agree that the WDA has a very good chance of achieving that target, given that some 7,300 jobs were created or safeguarded in 1994–95? Would not the only threat to such progress be posed by the remote possibility of a Labour Government?

My right hon. Friend is right in every respect. He is right, for instance, about the WDA's target. As the whole House knows, inward investment has brought tens of thousands of jobs to Wales over the years. The WDA's target for the current year is 10,000, and it is working hard to achieve that. It is working on a number of projects at present.

As my hon. Friend says, the only threat to the job prospects that have been created would be posed by a Labour Government, who would introduce a Welsh Assembly, the social chapter and a minimum wage.

Does the Secretary of State accept that the problem relates not just to unemployment, but to the kind of jobs that are attracted to Wales? The vast majority are part-time, low-paid, soul-destroying, non-union jobs. Is he aware that a survey carried out with the Department of Employment in my constituency shows that the hourly rate for jobs advertised worked out at just over £3 an hour? Would he work for that kind of money?

Of course we want skill levels and wages in the Welsh economy to rise over the years. Wages have risen in recent years, and I very much want that to continue. We are also working hard to achieve an improvement in skill levels, particularly in the manufacturing sector. Last week, I emphasised that to the chairmen of the training and enterprise councils. Over time, such improvements help to raise wage levels.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that, if either of the two sites proposed for a Euro freight depot in Wales—Magor or Wentloog—is used, the Welsh economy and Welsh prestige will receive a massive boost, thousands of jobs will be created and there will be a much wider impact on existing and potential investors in Wales?

If the right hon. Gentleman agrees with that, will he explain why, during his six months in office, he has done nothing to support either application, thus allowing a massive 1,000-acre competitor north of Bristol to steal a march? Only one of the sites can be viable: if the Bristol scheme proceeds, the Welsh projects will fail. Does the right hon. Gentleman understand that, if that happens, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that Wales will have lost out because of the incompetence and indecision that are the hallmarks of the right hon. Gentleman's administration of the Welsh Office?

As usual, the hon. Gentleman's question hears little resemblance to reality. There are projects to create rail freight terminals in South Wales, both of which involve applications for grants. Those applications—some for European grants, others for freight facilities grants—are being assessed, but in many instances more information is required. There has been no delay on the part of my officials in the assessment of those projects, and there would be nothing to stop the projects proceeding if they were not dependent on public funds. Before we commit public funds, it is important for Ministers to be satisfied that there is a strong case for doing so.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what use has been made so far of the private finance initiative to boost the resources available to the NHS in Wales. [8831]

We fully expect the private finance initiative to contribute significantly to the capital investment within the NHS in Wales. There are currently around 20 major projects with a total investment of £160 million in the pipeline.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the £6.5 million scheme for a new car park at the University hospital of Wales in Cardiff is just one example of the way in which the NHS in Wales is benefiting from the private finance initiative? Is it not the case that the scheme could never have gone ahead on the current time scale if it had had to wait for public funding?

My hon. Friend is right. It is interesting to see Labour Members laughing at this. That is because they do not understand the private finance initiative. At present, the most advanced project that we have is the north Wales cancer centre, worth some £15 million. Two large consortiums have already been short-listed and invitations to tender will take place shortly. Four other major projects in the national health service in Wales have been advertised in the European Journal.

What about another finance initiative: the general practitioner out-of-hours services that have been proposed? In the Rhymney valley, for example, that could mean a return journey of 26 miles in the middle of the night for elderly patients. It may be convenient to GPs. Conservative Members might be happy about it, but the patients are not getting the service that they deserve. Will the Minister consider those initiatives as well to ensure that they deliver service to the patients?

We are obviously aware of the pressures that have arisen in the primary care sector, but I assure the hon. Gentleman and the House that, under this Government, patients will always come first, and not trade union members working in the health service.

Is not the point that the PFI involves money available over and above that in the Government capital funding programme and that, if it were left to the Labour party, additional medical facilities and hospitals alike would not be available in Wales or anywhere else in the United Kingdom?

My hon. Friend is correct. Conservative Members want the PFI to become the main source of funding of capital investment in the national health service in Wales. I notice that Labour Members continue to laugh at that. Perhaps I should tell them what the four other projects currently advertised are, because some of them affect their constituencies. There is provision for a new community hospital at Chepstow worth £6 million; a day surgery unit at the Nevill Hall and District NHS trust worth £1.8 million; radiotherapy equipment at the Velindre NHS trust worth £4 million; and an acute psychiatric unit in Abergavenny, Gwent worth £6 million.

Does the Minister recognise that, in relation to a hospital that has only a limited market—to use the terminology that is now used—the private finance initiative is hardly relevant? I think of Bronglais General hospital in mid-Wales. When is he going to reply to my letter to him dated 13 October, part of our on-going correspondence about that hospital and the problems that it faces in the long term because of the way in which the NHS market is likely to operate?

The hon. Gentleman is being narrow minded about the private finance initiative. Clearly, his party does not understand the PFI's fundamental principles any more than do Labour Members. In the current financial year, we expect the NHS to spend about £125 million. The PH will produce £10 million on top of that. That is hardly insignificant.

As to the hon. Gentleman's letter dated 13 October, I shall take that matter up immediately this Question Time is over.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much was spent per pupil in primary schools in Wales in the most recent year for which figures are available; and what was the figure for 1978–79, at constant prices. [8832]

In 1993–94, the most recent year for which figures are available, £1,608 was spent per pupil in LEA-maintained primary and nursery schools in Wales at 1994–95 prices. That compares with £1,105 in 1979–80, again at 1994–95 prices—the earliest period for which figures are available. That is an increase in real terms of 45 per cent.—I say again: 45 per cent.

Does my hon. Friend agree that those figures scarcely sustain claims of cuts in education? Does he think that that impressive expenditure increase in primary schools in Wales has been accompanied by a comparable improvement in standards?

My hon. Friend is correct. Spending on books and equipment in Wales increased in real terms between 1979–80 and 1993–94 by 89 per cent. Spending on teachers' salaries over the same period in real terms increased by 38 per cent., and during that time the pupil-teacher ratio has been about 22 pupils per class. My hon. Friend is also correct about standards, which in schools in Wales are much higher and better now than they were in 1979. However, we still have room for improvement and we are working hard on the implementation of policies that will ensure rising standards.

May I remind the Minister of the difficulties that are facing the new Flintshire county council, specifically with education? Does he know that, on the basis of the moneys that have so far been allocated by the Secretary of State, special needs children, those from under-privileged homes and, specifically, teachers will lose out hugely? Will he look again at the moneys that have been allocated to that new council and present proposals so that the county will not begin its new life with inadequate Government money?

It is sad that the hon. Gentleman continues the annual tradition of Clwyd education authority—frightening parents and children about funding for education. He knows perfectly well that it is for local authorities, in this case the new Flintshire education authority, to decide how much to spend on education and how to allocate the money.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the considerable increase in Government spending since 1979 on teachers' salaries, on nursery and primary education and on books and equipment shows the Government's determination to improve the standard of education in Wales? Does he further agree that it would be far better for all parties to support the Government's initiative on nursery education so that opportunity and choice can be enhanced and made available to more people in Wales?

My hon. Friend is correct. The figures that I quoted for the primary sector are similar to the figures for the secondary sector. Despite Labour's opposition to the nursery voucher scheme in Wales, I have no doubt that its Front-Bench spokesmen will, as usual, display their hypocrisy by taking full advantage of it in due course.

There would be no question of hypocrisy in these matters on my part. The impressive figures for the increase in expenditure in primary education are principally the result of paying teachers half-decent salaries in the past few years, and of local authorities spending more on education. Will the Minister confirm that, in the past few years, the Welsh Office revenue support grant has made up a smaller share of local government spending and that LEAs have gone into their reserves to maintain services? Despite that, the pupil-teacher ratio is now edging up in primary schools. The average class size is going up and nearly 12,000 more pupils are being taught in classes of more than 30. Primary schools are being underfunded by the Government and they desperately need more money.

The hon. Gentleman must have asked about a dozen questions there, or certainly made about a dozen assertions, all of them incorrect.

They are from the Minister's statistics.

The truth of the matter is that Opposition Members believe the lies that are being peddled about statistics, and that explains why the hon. Member for Peckham (Ms Harman) chose a selective grant-maintained school for her son.

What progress has been made in Wales on establishing grant-maintained schools? If progress has been made, could my hon. Friend suggest any action to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, as progress in the matter has perhaps not been so great in Scotland? Then, in the interests of—

Order. The hon. Gentleman has been waiting for a long time to ask his question. I thought that he might have been more direct, but he seems to be circumventing the question on the Order Paper. If the hon. Gentleman has a direct question about Wales, I must hear it.

What progress has been with regard to grant-maintained schools and primary schools in Wales?

Well done.

If my hon. Friend is patient, he will hear in a few moments our proposal to make grant-maintained schools even more popular in Wales by giving them the opportunity to borrow money in the private sector. I am sure that Opposition Members whose children attend grant-maintained schools will want to support the Government in this matter.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many representations he has received over the past two years on the subject of rural railway lines in Wales; and if he will make a statement. [8833]

Twenty-one representations in the two years ended 31 December 1995.

Is the Minister aware that the first three franchisees to be allocated services are intent on reviewing fares every four months? Did not the Government give an assurance that price rises would be in accordance with inflation? What assurance can the Minister possibly give to those of us in Wales who are very concerned about rural lines in particular, and all railway lines in Wales in general? When will the Government realise that we need a properly funded and integrated public transport system in Wales?

My right hon. Friend's assurance on fares remains firmly in place, and there has been no change in that matter whatsoever. The same opportunities for the provision of socially necessary railway services in Wales to be supported by the taxpayer exist. The hon. Gentleman ought to move forward to the 20th century and recognise the real opportunities that privatisation presents, in the same way as the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Mr. Jones)—according to the Western Mail this morning—has seen the possibilities of freight traffic on the north Wales line.

Will the Minister invite the Secretary of State to travel the 120-mile stretch of the heart of Wales line from Swansea to Shrewsbury to see the most beautiful line in Wales? Will he further ensure that the Welsh Office is represented at a very senior level at the special conference to be held in Llandrindod Wells on 23 March? The conference will look at the potential of the line, and at the potential for integrated transport, green tourism and job creation along its length.

It is always good to be represented on any appropriate occasion, and I will make sure that the hon. Gentleman's suggestion is looked into. I share the hon. Gentleman's admiration for the excellent heart of Wales line and the beautiful scenery through which it passes. I do not need to pass on such an invitation to my right hon. Friend—although I know that he would take it up with alacrity—because he has already travelled on parts of the line.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met leaders of local authorities to discuss the local government financial settlement. [8834]

I chaired a meeting of the Welsh consultative council on local government finance on 18 December 1995.

I trust that those who were present at the meeting made the Secretary of State aware of the effect of the Government's grant to local authorities on the council taxes in Wales that are soon to be announced. Is the Secretary of State aware that we shall see increases of 30 or 40 per cent. in council tax across Wales? What effect does he believe that that will have on the Welsh economy and on the feel-good factor in Wales? What effect is the rise likely to have on the prospects at the next election of the pitifully few Conservative Members who represent Welsh constituencies?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, council tax levels are set by local authorities. Notwithstanding that, I expect that there will be a large differential between English and Welsh council taxes for the foreseeable future. Local authority leaders made certain representations to me at the meeting on 18 December and further representations in the period of consultation, which ended on 5 January. I shall, of course, consider those representations.

Is the Secretary of State aware that, if local authorities such as mine restricted their council tax increase to the 3 per cent. present rate of inflation, in order to balance their books, they would have to cut some 50 teaching posts, close 15 rural schools, withdraw social services from 1,500 vulnerable people and close leisure centres for one or two days a week? Is that the objective of the settlement that he has made?

No. As the hon. Gentleman knows, I have increased the amount of money that central Government will give to local government in the coming year. It is not possible to satisfy every demand for money on every occasion, as the hon. Gentleman knows, but I have increased the money that is given to local government. It is up to local government to play its part, in being as efficient as possible and running its services as well as it can, to ensure that we get the best possible value for money.

In particular, what excuses does the Secretary of State have to offer to the residents of the politically independent area of the new Powys unitary authority, who face a minimum increase of 15 to 20 per cent. in their council tax just to maintain services?

I welcome the hon. and learned Gentleman—on a day when the Liberal party has told us that it stands for high taxes, is soft on Europe and is naive on the economy, I wonder that he asks me about a possible tax increase. The question is similar to those that I was asked earlier, and therefore the answer is similar: I am giving an increased amount of money to local government during the coming year, although the actual level of council tax is set by local authorities. I expect Welsh council taxes will be far below English council taxes in the coming year.

Is the Secretary of State aware that in Flintshire there is not only concern about education—mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones)—but growing concern among the leaders of that authority about the future of Theatr Clwyd and the 100 jobs that it creates in my constituency, plus the many more knock-on-effect jobs in the town of Mold? Will the Secretary of State agree today to review the settlement to see whether there is any further assistance that he can give Flintshire, to ensure that that excellent facility continues as a source of pride in north Wales?

As I said in answer to the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones), I received many representations in the consultation that ended on 5 January and I shall consider all those representations, including those that I received from Flintshire.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the most recent unemployment figure for Wales; and what is the European Union average. [8835]

The latest available unemployment rate for Wales on an internationally comparable basis is 8.3 per cent. for autumn 1995. The European Union rate in October 1995 was 10.6 per cent.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that unemployment in Wales is lower than in Spain, Italy, France and Germany, all of which follow the sorts of policies advocated by the Labour and Liberal parties? Is that why the Liberal Democrats are regarded as naive on the economy?

My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. The Liberal Democrats are indeed naive, when they bother to turn up. When he talks about the Welsh economy, that reflects the fact that Wales does not have any of the economic and welfare baggage of the European Union, such as the social chapter or the minimum wage. Perhaps more importantly, Wales does not intend to take on board any of the federal European political baggage, which other countries want to do.

Let me illustrate to my hon. Friend what that means to Wales in terms of jobs—I hope that Opposition Members will listen. It means investment by Bosch of Germany resulting in 1,000 jobs; by L'Oreal of France, more than 500 jobs; by FRAM of Italy, more than 500 jobs; Valeo of France, 660 jobs; Kronospan of Leichtenstein, 420 jobs; MVO Spa of Italy, more than 44 jobs; Axa France, 277 jobs. I am sure that there are more jobs to come where they came from.

Is not the tragedy for Wales in the truth of the Minister's boast—that this may be the Government's best year for unemployment? Is it not a fact that in this, their best year, more than 10 million more working days will be lost through unemployment than were lost in 1979? Does not the horrendous number of lost days that must have accumulated over the past 16 years explain the poverty and deprivation that has become all too common in Wales?

The tragedy for Wales is that the Labour party still has such a high representation there. None of us will forget the tragedy of days lost through strikes when Labour was in power and until we changed the law. When the right hon. Gentleman talks of days lost through unemployment, I should remind him that inflation is down, interest rates are down, unemployment is down, productivity is up, average earnings are up, output is up and confidence is up. The only thing that could undermine that confidence is the Labour party.

I know that my hon. Friend needs no more ammunition than he has already fired this afternoon but will he tell the people of Wales about a large company in my constituency that found that, because of the social chapter, it could not afford to build a factory in France and decided, therefore, to double its production line in Scarborough, thus guaranteeing the jobs of my constituents?

I am delighted that my hon. Friend has drawn that example to the attention of the House. He is an experienced industrialist and employer—matters of which the Labour party has very little experience.

I apologise for my late arrival, which was due to train failure. [Interruption.] I am grateful to the hon. Members who have put the word "Tory" into praetorian guard by being here today.

Does the Minister accept that, contrary to the impression that he has given that Wales is a land flowing with jobs, milk and honey, his own recent publication "Government Expenditure and Revenue Wales 1994/95" shows that Wales' gross domestic product per head is 15 per cent. below the British average and 20 per cent. below the United Kingdom average and that Wales therefore produces tax receipts 20 per cent. below the UK average? Does not that suggest that, in spite of the investments that he mentioned—some of which, including FRAM, are 20 years old—Wales does not flow with milk and honey and would have a far higher standard of living if the standard of living of some of the countries that he mentioned as bad examples applied?

The hon. Gentleman has forgotten the state that Wales was in when we inherited it in 1979, with clapped-out public sector industries that cost the UK taxpayer £50 million a week. Since we privatised them, they have contributed some £50 million a week to the Exchequer. He cannot seriously expect anyone to believe that Wales is not now an infinitely better place in which to work and live than it was in 1979.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he next plans to meet the board of the Welsh Development Agency to discuss its policy on inward investment. [8836]

I regularly meet the board of the Welsh Development Agency to discuss a wide range of issues.

When the Secretary of State next meets the board, will he point out that the M4 corridor does not stop at Bridgend and ask why a constituency such as mine, which still has 30 per cent. of its work force engaged in productive industries and which has a long tradition of manufacturing engineering, has had no major investment at all for the past 10 years?

The right hon. Gentleman is right to point to that strong tradition in his constituency and I should certainly like us to maintain and improve our efforts to ensure that the spread of inward investment around Wales increases. Of course, inward investors are attracted to particular sites, but the Welsh Development Agency has targets to ensure a greater spread of inward investment. Llanelli has major inward investment employers such as Calsonic and Camford Pressings from Germany, although they have been there for some time. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that there will be a great deal of effort to maximise inward investment into all parts of Wales.

Has my right hon. Friend had an opportunity to discuss with the Welsh Development Agency the difficulties that it would face should this country ever be under a Labour Government who were committed to a social chapter and a minimum wage, which would destroy inward investment?

Some of the factors that attract inward investors are lower tax on companies and less regulation than is to be found in the rest of the European Community, and one factor in producing them is not being part of the social chapter. Were we to sign up to it, it would undoubtedly damage our inward investment prospects.

Will the Secretary of State join me in commending the Welsh Development Agency, jointly with the Cardiff business school, on producing for Wales the United Kingdom's first regional technology plan? Given the importance of that project, does he think it appropriate that he should have deceived the WDA into thinking that he would launch the plan in Cardiff on Wednesday this week? Will he confirm that, contrary to the press releases that have been put out, he has no intention of being there and has chosen instead to be at a Conservative party function in London? Does not that demonstrate precisely what is wrong with the Government—people's needs are playing second fiddle to the Tory party's needs?

I shall be attending a meeting of the Cabinet, and the hon. Gentleman would be angry with me if I did not. I shall deliver my speech at the launch of the regional technology plan by video tape. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will enjoy listening to every word of my speech and that his questions will be better informed in future.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what action has been taken to allow more young people to benefit from modern apprenticeships in Wales. [8837]

I have made additional funds available for modern apprenticeships and accelerated modern apprenticeships so that, by the end of 1996–97, more than 8,500 young people in Wales will have been able to start such training since the initiative began. That will result in a substantial injection of new, highly skilled and qualified workers into manufacturing industry in Wales.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on increasing spending year on year by 14 per cent. Does not that show the Government's commitment to producing a skilled work force from our young folk? Does he feel that Welsh employers have managed to measure up satisfactorily to the challenge presented to employers and to young people by the modern apprenticeship scheme?

I thank my hon. Friend. He is right about the priorities that I have given to the training of young people. The budget for training young people will be £53 million next year which, as he said, is an increase of 14 per cent. I have also asked the training and enterprise councils to make manufacturing skills their top priority, not only in Government schemes but by encouraging companies to do the same. We have a steadily improving performance on training in Wales and I shall do my best to continue to encourage it.

Does not the Secretary of State realise that that is all nonsense? The Government's figures show that the number of recognised trade apprenticeships has fallen from 19,000 four years ago to less than 10,000 now? There has been a collapse in job opportunities for young people. Crime is rising, there is a lack of hope and young people throughout the valleys in south Wales feel tremendous despair because they cannot get trade apprenticeships, which the Government have cut year after year.

As I have explained, the Government's policies are directed towards increasing opportunities. I have already listed the ways in which we are doing that. Moreover, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will take comfort from the survey released today by Dun and Bradstreet, which shows that nearly two thirds of Welsh firms—the highest proportion in the whole of Great Britain—expect to increase their employment.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what action he has taken to encourage participation in sport in schools and to raise the standard of sports provision in schools. [8838]

Last September, my right hon. Friend published "Young People and Sport in Wales", which sets out a comprehensive programme of action for sport for children of school age. He invited the Sports Council to Wales to consult widely and advise him on a number of specific issues arising out of the document. My right hon. Friend expects to receive that advice shortly.

Is my hon. Friend aware that my Welsh constituents in Basildon will be delighted with that news, irrespective of the type of school to which they send their children? Will he confirm that plans to change national lottery funding so that individuals may benefit from lottery money will considerably help young people and sport generally in Wales?

I am delighted that my hon. Friend is in touch with his Welsh constituents in Basildon. However, matters involving the national lottery are for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for National Heritage.

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the prospective cost of the Welsh Office-led trade mission to Indonesia; and if he will make a statement. [8839]

It is £18,000, including a visit to Singapore. My Department's trade mission programme provides excellent value for money and has given a significant boost to the Welsh economy by helping many small and medium-sized companies to improve their overseas sales performance.

Is not his attitude typical of those who used to trade with Saddam Hussein despite the evidence that he was torturing and killing his own people? Does he not realise that the human rights record of Indonesia is one of the worst in the world? Indonesia killed 200,000 people when it illegally invaded East Timor. Does he not realise that the people of Wales are outraged that he and his team in the Welsh Office consider the matter to be of no significance?

United Kingdom exports to Indonesia increased by 42 per cent. in 1995. The people of Wales would be outraged if we said that Wales were to have no share in that increase, which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, the Member for Clwyd, North-West (Mr. Richards) and those who went with him, promoted. The people who went on the trade mission were not arms suppliers, but people seeking to trade with Indonesia in many different sectors. They have brought back orders worth several hundreds of thousands of pounds, which should be welcomed by all right hon. and hon. Members.