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Commons Chamber

Volume 408: debated on Wednesday 9 July 2003

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House Of Commons

Wednesday 9 July 2003

The House met at half-past Eleven o'clock

Prayers

[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Oral Answers To Questions

International Development

The Minister of State was asked

Global Fund For Health

1.

If he will make a statement on the progress made by the global fund for health.[124272]

To date, the global fund has committed US $1.5 billion to more than 150 programmes in 93 countries, including the provision of anti-retrovirals in Haiti, Honduras and Rwanda, the expansion of tuberculosis treatment in China and Mongolia and the distribution of bed nets to prevent malaria in Tanzania and Sri Lanka. The UK strongly supported the creation of the fund and we have committed $280 million over the years 2002—08. We are working with the secretariat and other supporters of the fund to develop measures that we can all use to evaluate progress over the longer term.

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is essential that the fund develops the potential to really turn around the HIV, TB and malaria epidemics, and that to do that we need more countries to put their money and their faith into the fund so that individual countries do not try to impose their own priorities and monitoring mechanisms on the fund? Does he further agree that, especially where they are members of the board, they should work through the board to establish internationally agreed criteria for its work?

I agree very much with the point that my hon. Friend makes. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to his work as chair of the all-party group on AIDS. He is right: in supporting the creation of the fund it is important to ensure that it works alongside the existing bilateral programmes and the other UN agencies which are trying to fight the scourge of HIV/AIDS, in particular, and TB and malaria. We want the fund to add to the effectiveness of the work that is currently being undertaken. That is one of the issues that we are pursuing in providing support and encouragement, and indeed additional funding, to the fund, as was announced at the G8 summit at Evian.

Recently, President Bush announced that $10 billion was to go into AIDS work, which is marvellous news, and I wholeheartedly endorse it. However, he announced that only $1 billion was to go into the multilateral fund and that $9 billion was to go to a handful of countries as long as they accepted conditions such as taking genetically modified food. Will my hon. Friend use his influence to persuade the Americans that multilateral effort is the way ahead? That is why the global health fund was set up and we must back it to the fullest possible extent.

I agree with my hon. Friend's point about the importance of the multilateral route. However, it is not entirely clear what precise amounts the Americans will make available for the global fund; that will depend partly on decisions of Congress and partly on the extent to which other countries increase their contributions because of the conditions that have been set. It is really important that we ensure that we support the existing work of the multilateral institutions because we do not want, in promoting the fund, to add to the difficulties that Governments in developing countries face in trying to make sure that they can access the funding and support that is available from all those sources. That is why it is so important that country Governments and the multinational institutions actually work together.

Iraq

2.

If he will make a statement on the progress with aid to Iraq. [124273]

The Department for International Development's total financial commitment to humanitarian and reconstruction aid in Iraq now stands at £154 million. Most of that money is being channelled through organisations such as the United Nations agencies, the Red Cross and Red Crescent movement and non-governmental organisations, which have the capacity and expertise to mount operations on the ground. On 3 July, I placed in the Library details of that funding and the work that has been undertaken so far.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, but does he share my concern that some of the basic forms of aid required by the Iraqi people are constant clean water and electricity supplies? The ability to have access to those will convince the Iraqi people that we are genuine in our desire to see their country improve and to see them take control of their country as quickly as possible. What can my hon. Friend do to ensure that we can get those electricity and water supplies back on, constantly, so that the people of Iraq have a decent life?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the need to provide the basics, especially water and electricity, to the people of Iraq. Currently, there is no higher priority for the Coalition Provisional Authority than to ensure that that is the case. There are difficulties, however. First, there are historical difficulties, because of the legacy of under-investment in parts of the country, especially the south. Secondly, there are problems of security, with which the House will be familiar. Thirdly, sabotage and looting have undone some of the work that has already been undertaken. However, I can tell the House that, although Baghdad suffered a reduction in electricity supply two or three weeks ago—in part owing to sabotage and in part owing to the creaking infrastructure—the electricity supply is increasing again. None the less, we still have some way to go in order to meet the aspirations to which my hon. Friend has rightly drawn our attention.

The Minister will be aware of UN resolution 1325, which seeks to improve the role of women not only in decision making but in aid distribution. What efforts have the UK Government made to ensure that women are working at grass-roots level, so that aid is delivered where it is most needed?

One of the UK Government's priorities is to support the process of involving women in all parts of civil society and political life in Iraq. Indeed, the women's conference—which is taking place this week, with help and financial support from DFID—is one of the ways in which we are trying to make that happen. An example of that working is that Baghdad city now has a council in place, and I think I am right in saying that six of its 37 members are women.

Given the problems of security, which my hon. Friend acknowledged in his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Claire Ward), what ideas does he have on the help that we can give in terms of aid for the security situation, given that Iraqi trainee policemen were brutally murdered and that any Iraqi policeman who is seen to co-operate may—repeat, "may"—be in physical danger himself?

The investment that is being made in security is the highest priority, alongside the restoration of basic services. As hon. Members on both sides of the House will know, the people of Iraq are saying that the first priority is security, because without security we cannot make progress. Some 30,000 police officers have now reported back for work, but my hon. Friend rightly draws attention to the need for retraining, because policing a society that is no longer ruled by terror and fear is a very different challenge from what existed in Iraq for 25 years previously. I am afraid that the fact that those police officers, who had just completed their training, were tragically murdered last week illustrates that some people in Iraq do not want that process to succeed and are trying to undermine the efforts that are being made to restore security—the bedrock on which all future progress will be built.

At the Liaison Committee meeting yesterday, the Prime Minister denied that planning for the aftermath of the war in Iraq was poor, yet that very claim was made on 1 June, by the former Secretary of State for International Development, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Clare Short). Who are we to believe? Does the Minister agree that the former Secretary of State should have the chance to give evidence to support her claim as part of the International Development Committee's inquiry into contingency planning for the war and its aftermath?

Who the International Development Committee chooses to call as a witness is entirely a matter for the Committee, not for me. On the substantive issue that the hon. Lady raises concerning preparation, as we discussed last week during the statement on Iraq, unquestionably the preparation that was made focused on the possible worst outcomes, which thankfully did not transpire. Of course there are lessons to be learned from what has happened, but I simply tell the hon. Lady that the priority for the moment is to get on with the job in hand; we can draw on those lessons later.

Eu Agricultural Reform

3.

If he will make a statement on the impact of EU agricultural reform on the developing world. [124274]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Development
(Mr. Gareth Thomas)

The agreement reached by the Agriculture Council on 26 June will benefit developing countries, as well as European farmers and taxpayers. The most important change is the de-linking of support from output, which should begin to reduce excessive production, the dumping of which harms developing countries. The agreement also paves the way for reforms to other EU commodity regimes and, most importantly, should give new momentum to the current round of World Trade Organisation negotiations, which are vital for the future economic growth and prosperity of developing countries.

I wish to pass on thanks and congratulations to the Government on everything that they have done to achieve that first welcome start in common agricultural policy reform, but does my hon. Friend agree with those trade justice campaigners whom I met recently in Blackpool that reforming the world trade rules is essential to protect developing countries and to prevent dumping—principally, the dumping of agricultural products by American multinational companies? Will he give an assurance that, at the WTO conference in Cancun this September, the Government will put very strong emphasis on reforming the system to benefit developing countries, so that poor banana growers in St. Lucia or cotton growers in Kenya do not find their livelihoods disrupted by unfair trade rules?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. As he says, the CAP reform process in the Agriculture Council is a first significant and serious reform. It injects some new momentum in the run-up to Cancun at a time when we have missed a series of deadlines. As we in Europe have moved, it is now up to others, particularly our friends in America and in the Cairns group, to give some ground, too.

But can the Minister confirm that the fudged and inadequate reform of the CAP will allow the continued dumping of subsidised agricultural produce on the developing world? Can I refer him to a letter that he sent today to my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key), who did the job that I am currently doing extremely well? It says that

"you will be aware that this"—
the peace clause—
"is due to expire on 31 December…Although the European Union is pressing for its renewal as part of a new WTO Agreement on Agriculture, proposals currently on the negotiating table contain no such provision. Failure to extend the Peace Clause would mean that domestic support measures…would be open to challenge in the WTO."
Does that mean that we can look forward to all-out trade war over agricultural produce, particularly subsidised EU produce, after 31 December?

I welcome the hon. Gentleman's return to international development in his first appearance on the Front Bench in that role. In my limited experience, I suggest that he will find the welcome short. In terms of his specific questions, he is wrong to be so negative about the process that was agreed. The Agriculture Council looked specifically at the direct support that is provided. We can now move on to look at the issue of export subsidies in the context of the WTO negotiations. In terms of the peace clause, we are continuing to negotiate on that issue, and we need to await the outcome of those negotiations.

May I ask the Minister what are the prospects of CAP reform? Only yesterday, the members of the International Development Committee visited Brussels, and I was part of that delegation. We were given the impression by the EU Development and Co-operation Committee that perhaps CAP reform is not a priority, and that the EU common foreign and security policy will take priority over everything else.

:Let me reassure my hon. Friend that CAP reform has been a fundamental part of our agenda. The result that we secured at the Agriculture Council, led by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, allows us to move forward significantly, and the series of measures has been welcomed by the least developed countries. Given the number of deadlines for progress that we have missed, as I mentioned, I hope that my hon. Friend will recognise that we now have the opportunity to move forward.

Do the CAP reform proposals fully meet Harbinson 2 and the second modalities paper on the reductions of the blue box subsidies? What is the position now with regard to the amber box? Will the EU at the WTO seek to deal with export subsidies to broaden the measure to US export credits and dealing with food aid? What will be done to enhance market access for developing countries?

:I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his work on the International Development Committee. In terms of the Harbinson proposals, the CAP reform that we have negotiated allows us to engage seriously and to meet the Harbinson criteria for the agenda. In terms of the specific points about market access, we are committed to having negotiations in Cancun about market access, and we have made a series of proposals for tariff reduction including an overall average tariff reduction of some 36 per cent. and a minimum reduction of some 15 per cent. We have therefore given significant ground. It is now up to others to give ground on issues of market access, too.

Democracy (Afghanistan/Iraq)

4.

What improvements in democracy the Department has helped with in (a) Afghanistan and (b) Iraq since 11 September 2001. [124275]

The United Kingdom supported the emergency Loya Jirga in June 2002 that elected President Karzai. The Department for International Development is providing £500,000 to support the public consultation for the new constitution for Afghanistan. In Iraq, DFID is working closely with other Departments and the leadership of the Coalition Provisional Authority to help to restore a functioning administration in the country and to lay the foundations for the development of representative and democratic Iraqi self-government.

:Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a moral case for global military intervention to spread democracy, put forward by the neo-Conservatives in the United States, but that unless we actually achieve a development of democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq, we will reinforce the view of many people that we have adopted a pre-emptive strike attitude to many countries that we do not like? That will in turn lead to an undermining of democracy and make it harder to develop democracy in those countries. Will my hon. Friend redouble his efforts to make sure that democratic structures are brought into being in Iraq and Afghanistan as soon as possible?

:My hon. Friend is absolutely right, because the ultimate test of whether the action that has been taken in those two countries succeeds in the long term will be the extent to which self-government is restored. We should bear in mind the fact that both countries have suffered grievously over the previous 25 years and that restoring democracy is not an easy task. However, what is most important—experience in Iraq over the past couple of months has reinforced this point—is that the people of those countries should see that there is a process that will enable them to move from where they find themselves today to where they want to be. We hope in the next few days to see in Iraq, with the establishment of the governing council that will begin to appoint the first Ministers, the beginning of that process, and that is to be followed by the establishment of the constitutional convention. On Afghanistan, there is a timetable aimed at achieving the first elections in June 2004. It is important that everybody works hard to try to maintain that timetable.

Does the Minister agree that a proper police service is needed in a democracy? In that context, will he pay tribute to those who are volunteering for the police service in Iraq? Furthermore, what steps are being taken to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people? How are we communicating with them in the mass?

:I share the hon. Gentleman's sentiments about the importance of policing. I join him in paying tribute to those Iraqis and others who have come in to support the reform and training of the new police force in Iraq. He is absolutely right to suggest that that is required if we are to bring about security and to enable all the other things that we want for that country to occur.

The hon. Gentleman is also right to draw attention to the need to communicate effectively. The Coalition Provisional Authority has further work to do on that front. It is important that the Iraqi people are able to hear and see what is being done so that they can support the process and, therefore, undermine those who are trying to destroy it.

To some of us who went to Iraq before the conflict, it was clear that the Kurdish people had already developed a very strong democratic model in their devolved assembly. Is my hon. Friend concerned that they have said that they are not happy with the proposal that they should go into an appointed council and are worried that the advances that they have made in democracy will be eroded in the period in which the council operates before there is a proper constitution and a democratic election?

It is, of course, the case that the north of the country has enjoyed a different history in recent times because of the protection that has been provided to that part of Iraq. That prevented Saddam from doing to that part of his country what he had done to the rest of it. It is very important, in the interests of the future of the country as a whole, that everybody pulls together as we work to try to establish a democracy. However, in the end, the precise form of that will have to take account of the different circumstances in different parts of the country and the different traditions to ensure that all the people and all their political representatives then subscribe to the democracy that is created.

Zimbabwe

5.

What recent assessment he has made of the level of humanitarian aid reaching the people of Zimbabwe. [124276]

Most of the maize crop has been harvested in Zimbabwe and many areas of the country now have food. The maize crop is up 61 per cent. on last year but nevertheless remains at less than half the national requirement. The United Nations and non-governmental organisations are still feeding around 2 million people in areas where there has been no crop and those who remain vulnerable, including unemployed farm workers, children, the elderly and the chronically ill. These areas and groups will require food throughout the year. The UN predicts that 5.5 million people in Zimbabwe will require humanitarian assistance again by the end of the year.

Earlier this year, I raised with the then Under-Secretary during an Adjournment debate several concerns that had been put to me by aid workers in rural Zimbabwe. Since then, I have received a full response from both the Department and Save the Children, but nonetheless the concerns that were raised with me remain. Will the Minister, in his new brief, read what was said in that debate and keep a watchful eye on the situation to ensure that no further action needs to be taken in the future?

I am happy to give the hon. Gentleman that undertaking. If it would be helpful, I shall be happy to meet him so that we may discuss the issues.

Does my hon. Friend agree that some of the poorest people who live in the poorest countries should never be penalised because of some of the appalling people who lead them?

I do agree with my right hon. Friend. The UK has been playing such an important role as the second largest donor of humanitarian support to the people in Zimbabwe precisely because the collapse of the country and its Government, and the destruction that that Government have brought on the people of that country, should not stand in the way of our doing all that we can. It is a sign of the desperate state of affairs that two thirds of this year's humanitarian and food support will be provided by the international community. The Government of Zimbabwe will provide only one third because they are increasingly proving themselves to be incapable of meeting the needs of their people.

Order. There is a great deal of noise in the Chamber, which is unfair to hon. Members who are asking questions.

Some of us met the mayor of Harare last week for an appraisal of the humanitarian situation in Zimbabwe. He knew that he would be arrested on his return, and he was. The mayor and NGOs in Zimbabwe report not only that food is being distributed according to party loyalty, but that seeds and tools for next year's crops are not being distributed in areas controlled by the Movement for Democratic Change. Is it not time for us all to stop playing the white colonial card and to persuade the United Nations to send monitors to Zimbabwe to regulate the humanitarian situation and the abuse of human rights that is going on?

I share the hon. Lady's concern about what has happened to the mayor of Harare. She will be aware that strict procedures are in place to ensure that the humanitarian aid that we and other members of the international community provide is not distributed for political purposes, although I understand her concerns about the way in which the one third that is distributed by the Government of Zimbabwe is used. If there are any complaints or concerns about the way in which our support or the multilateral support is distributed, I would be keen to receive them. I undertake to examine the matter for the hon. Lady.

The humanitarian relief has so far tended to be focused on rural areas. Will the Minister comment on the needs of the urban areas of Harare and Bulawayo in which the poorest people have neither the cash to buy food nor the prospect of crops in leaner times? That has an especially serious effect on many young people.

My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the fact that there is a problem in cities as well as rural areas. Of the 5.5 million people who we estimate will need help with food again by the end of the year, 4.4 million will be in rural areas and 1.1 million will be in cities, which demonstrates that the crisis affects all Zimbabweans.

Frankly, it beggars belief that the Government have now deemed Zimbabwe safe for asylum seekers to return to. The Minister just told the House that almost half the population still need food aid, and there are daily reports of violent oppression. How can the hon. Gentleman seriously expect asylum seekers to follow the Home Office advice to return voluntarily?

Well, returning voluntarily is, by definition, a matter of choice for the individuals concerned. They must make that judgment based on their assessment of the situation. I do not think that there is a contradiction in that. Because of the seriousness of the situation in Zimbabwe, we and the international community have taken steps, but in the end, the process of change has to come from within that country, because that is the only way in which a solution to the catastrophe will be found.

Prime Minister

The Prime Minister was asked

Engagements

Ql. [124287]

If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 9 July.

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I will have further such meetings later today.

An excellent new Macmillan cancer centre is soon to open in Dumfries and Galloway Royal infirmary. At the last meeting of the all-party group on cancer, much was said about that kind of investment in cancer care. However, the group did express concern that we need additional cancer nurses or nurses who are better trained in cancer care. Keeping in mind that around 30 per cent. of the population will experience a cancer-related illness in their lifetime, does the Prime Minister feel that we need more training that includes a specific module on cancer care?

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. I pay tribute to the excellent work by Macmillan Cancer Relief. He is right to say that we need to train more cancer nurses. That is why we are making such a huge investment in our national health service at the present time. As a result of that extra investment, people are being diagnosed quicker and treated quicker. More money is being invested. Over the past few years, cancer deaths in this country have fallen by almost 9 per cent. That is why it is important that that extra investment keeps going into our national health service.

The Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee says that the Prime Minister should apologise to Parliament for misrepresenting the status of the second dossier. Will he do that now?

The Foreign Secretary has already apologised on behalf of the whole Government for the mistake that was made. I do not accept, in any shape or form, that the information in that second briefing was wrong. Actually, those parts of it that were based on intelligence were, indeed, based on intelligence.

Let me remind the Prime Minister what the report said. It said that the Prime Minister, in saying that the report was "further intelligence",

"misrepresented its status and … made a bad situation worse."
The Chairman went on to say that when a Minister misleads Parliament, even inadvertently, he should come to the House of Commons and apologise. Why is it that, for this Prime Minister, sorry seems to be the hardest word?

On 10 February, we made it quite clear that we acknowledged the mistake that one part of the briefing paper—one part of it—should have been sourced to a written record of a review that was published some time before. That part of it that was expressed to be based on intelligence was, indeed, based on intelligence. So I am afraid that I do not accept that Parliament was misled in any way at all.

Let me just say this to the right hon. Gentleman. The intelligence on which we based both the September dossier and that February briefing was intelligence that was specifically shared with him by our intelligence services. If he is now disputing any of that intelligence, perhaps he would say so.

The Prime Minister knows I was given no sight of that dossier. I was not even contacted about it. The first I knew about that dossier in February was when I found out about it in the newspapers, so he can retract that for a start. [Interruption.] Oh yes. Until the Prime Minister accepts that he misrepresented the status of the second dossier to Parliament and apologises, trust in him will plummet and no one will believe a word he says anymore.

First, my understanding is that the right hon. Gentleman was briefed on Iraq by the Chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee on 18 September and again on 12 February. I have said to him that the intelligence that we put forward was shared with him.

Order. Mr. Bacon, it is not for you to shout at the Prime Minister. [Interruption.] Order. I always pick out the one who is loudest.

I said that the intelligence on which we based both the dossier and the February briefing was shared with the Leader of the Opposition at briefings on 18 September and 12 February. That intelligence was not, as the shadow Foreign Secretary keeps saying, given to the Leader of the Opposition orally by me; it was given by the intelligence services. Perhaps he would just confirm whether that is right or wrong.

In light of the recent case of Dame Shirley Porter allegedly owing Westminster council £37 million, may I ask the Prime Minister whether the Government are able to take any action to ensure that offshore assets can be made more transparent?

I want to be careful how I answer that because there may be legal proceedings on that subject, but I can simply say that I shall certainly look into the matter and get back to my hon. Friend.

On a previous occasion the Prime Minister replied to me that the nine UK citizens being held at Camp Delta could not remain there indefinitely, but he must recognise equally that he cannot give that reply indefinitely. How long must UK citizens be left to languish in this legal no-man's-land?

I agree that obviously there has to be a point in time when the issue is brought to an end. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the United States is now talking about the right method by which to try anybody against whom charges would be brought. We will make active representations to the United States—indeed, we are already doing so—to make absolutely sure that any such trial will take place in accordance with proper international law.

Since I last raised the matter with the Prime Minister, those representations to the American authorities have fallen on deaf ears. Two of these British citizens may imminently face very serious charges but, he must surely acknowledge, they are not aware of what those charges are and they will be tried in a military tribunal. If they agree to plead guilty, they may be able to escape the death penalty, but if they do not, and are found guilty, they could face the death penalty. If they are not found guilty, the Americans could still choose to detain them as potential combatants. Just how long will the Prime Minister find that state of affairs acceptable, and what does that say for British influence, which he heralds, over the Americans?

It is of course important that the commission that tries these people is conducted according to proper rules. Those rules have not yet been drawn up, and it is precisely for that reason that we are making active representations, and our opposition to the death penalty is well known.

On that point, my constituent, Feroz Abbasi, has been held in Guantanamo bay for 18 months without charge, and he now faces the prospect of a military tribunal in which he will not be able to appoint his own defence lawyer or to cross-examine prosecution witnesses, and he may face the death penalty following a decision behind closed doors.

Have the Government applied for the repatriation of my constituent to face a fair trial in Britain, and will my right hon. Friend now press to have all the evidence against Feroz Abbasi supplied to the Government, so that we may press charges and apply for an extradition order under our terrorism legislation? Feroz Abbasi could then face a fair trial and be punished if guilty, and the rule of law and human rights would prevail.

What my hon. Friend says must be right. If charges are brought, they must be proved in accordance with proper rules of evidence. As he rightly says, the charges are serious. It is worth remembering that the allegations revolve around what happened in Afghanistan some time ago, when British and American troops were putting their lives at risk there. However, I entirely agree with my hon. Friend—there must be no question about this at all. Any commission or tribunal that tries these men must be conducted in accordance with proper canons of law so that a fair trial takes place and is seen to take place.

Q2. [124288]

On another matter, when the Prime Minister talked about delivery targets last Thursday, he said:

"Maybe we have too many".
What delivery targets would the Prime Minister scrap, and what target has he set for delivering that?

Actually, we have reduced to a third the original number of targets in the first comprehensive spending review. I shall tell the hon. Gentleman about the targets that I would not scrap but which, apparently, the Conservatives would—[Interruption.] Oh yes, we will certainly not scrap targets for reducing waiting times and waiting lists for patients. We will not scrap our target for 50,000 extra nurses and we will not scrap our targets for extra investment in schools and hospitals. We will not do so because it is right that that investment is made.

Q3. [124289]

Given that so much crime is fuelled by drug addiction, even in a place like York, which has 250 drug addicts in rehabilitation at any one time, what are the Government doing to expand their range of policies to tackle drug abuse and fund the many agencies involved in delivering that strategy?

First, we are increasing investment by about half a billion pounds over the next few years. We are also increasing the use of drug treatment and testing orders, and are trying to make sure by increasing the number of people who receive drug treatment for their drug abuse that we reduce the prevalence of the link between drug abuse and crime. My hon. Friend is right—the link between drugs and crime is hugely important, which is precisely why we are making additional investment in both the criminal justice system and drug treatment—[Interruption.]

They are cheering him now, but they will be voting against him tomorrow. After last night's massive Labour rebellion on foundation hospitals, can the Prime Minister say whether he intends to press ahead with the legislation on top-up fees?

We remain absolutely committed to the Government's position on that issue.

Well, can the Prime Minister now tell the House whether he intends to rely on the votes of Scottish Labour MPs, even though top-up fees, like foundation hospitals, have been rejected by his own party in Scotland?

I find it absolutely extraordinary that the right hon. Gentleman should say that Scottish and Welsh MPs are not able to vote on UK legislation passed in this House—[Interruption.] This is the UK Parliament, and if he is saying that the position of the Conservative party is that Scottish and Welsh MPs can no longer vote on English business, is it also his position that, if devolution is up and running again in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland MPs cannot vote on it?

The Prime Minister is reduced to getting MPs who will not even be affected by this change to drive through his legislation for England. He is ploughing on, despite the fact that every single Labour MP stood on a manifesto that said that they would not introduce top-up fees. Is that not the reason why he has lost the trust of both the British people and, increasingly, his own party? Nobody believes a word he says any more.

We now have as official Conservative policy the belief that no one from Scotland, Wales or, indeed, if devolution is up and running, Northern Ireland, can vote on English issues—and they call themselves the Conservative and Unionist party. I think that the right hon. Gentleman needs to think that one through a little more carefully.

As for university finance, let me tell the right hon. Gentleman what would be a disaster—cutting £500 million off the university budget and, according to the higher education institute, having half a million fewer students by 2010. He wants fewer people going to worse-funded universities, which would be a disaster for the country.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the greatest concern for all our constituents remains antisocial behaviour, such as when youths congregate at cash dispensers and on street corners deliberately to intimidate? I ask him to reassure the House today that he and his Government will fund totally and fully all the proposals in the Anti-social Behaviour Bill. Will he, along with me and my constituents, criticise the Liberal Democrats for opposing the Bill?

It is, of course, remarkable that the Liberal Democrats are opposing measures on antisocial behaviour, including on-the-spot fines, which I believe will be supported by the vast majority of people in this country. My hon. Friend is absolutely right: these measures on antisocial behaviour are important and we will fund them properly. There are already record numbers of police officers, but they need the powers to deal with these issues. It is to the shame of the Liberal Democrats that they are voting against them.

Q4. [124290]

Given the importance of the Green Paper on child protection and the difficulty that the Prime Minister is having with his diary, will he consider giving up a day of his holiday in Barbados or even 45 minutes to launch the paper?

We will continue funding nursery education and the sure start proposals and we are continuing to put money into the early years learning of our children. Let me tell the hon. Gentleman what we will not do. When millions of people are getting the benefit of these proposals throughout the country, we will not follow his policy of 20 per cent. cuts across the board.

Q5. [124291]

Reverting to earlier questions, is my right hon. Friend aware that, when the exchanges took place on Monday about the two British nationals to be tried by the United States, there was strong criticism from all sides? Should not he be making far stronger representations and tell the Americans that, yes, we are allies in the fight against terrorism and that we intend to remain allies, but we shall also uphold the rule of law? Those two British citizens should be tried here if there are any charges to be made against them. Put your foot down, Prime Minister.

Certainly, my hon. Friend is right that those people should be tried in accordance with proper international law, and we will ensure that that is true. I simply say to him, however, that the precise nature of this trial has not yet been formulated. Therefore, it is important that we wait and see whether indeed our representations have been heeded.

Q6. [124292]

The Criminal Records Bureau is blaming its disclosure fee and tight targets for its terrible performance. Last week, the fee doubled, the targets were scrapped and the disclosure deadline was kicked into the long grass. Who is responsible for this Horlicks, which is affecting so many of our constituents, and what is the Prime Minister doing about it?

The actual output of the Criminal Records Bureau has improved significantly over the past few months, but I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that most people accept that we have got to have some system of checks. It has been difficult to establish the Criminal Records Bureau and to get it working in the way that we want, but it is working far better now than in the past few months. I think that a lot of people would be dismayed and that we would be attacked by the Opposition if we were to get rid of the Criminal Records Bureau.

May I draw my right hon. Friend's attention to the international education tables that were recently published? They showed that Britain is now occupying position No. 8 with regard to the quality of education in our schools. Will he comment on the importance of the extra assistance that goes into classrooms to ensure that schools, and particularly those facing hard challenges, have higher behaviour standards to ensure that we continue to rise in the international league table and to show how much importance that we attach to not undermining schools by criticising them, which happens in some areas of this country?

My hon. Friend is right, of course, that the additional investment is lifting school standards. We now have the best school results that we have ever had in this country. In particular, the large number of classes of more than 30 pupils has been significantly reduced, indeed practically eliminated. We have also made sure that, in primary schools in particular, but also in secondary schools, that extra investment is yielding the results. I think that we can be proud of much of what is happening in our education system. I know that there have been problems in school funding this year because of additional requirements in relation to pensions and teachers' pay and also the additional investment that is being made, but the worst thing that could happen to our schools now would be to roll back that improvement and investment in future.

Q7. [124293]

Three weeks ago the Prime Minister told me:

"It is worth pointing out the fact that, when we finally won the conflict in Iraq, some of the people who were still offering resistance were extremists from Chechnya."—[Official Report, 18 June 2003; Vol. 407, c. 355.]
Invited to support that fact with evidence in a written answer, the Foreign Office could not do so other than by reference to unsubstantiated reports. We do know, however, that none of the captives in Guantanamo bay is Chechen, although nine are British, and that British forces did not encounter any Chechens in Iraq or in Afghanistan. Should the British Prime Minister be prepared to blacken the name of an entire people on the basis of unsubstantiated reports; and will he withdraw that statement unless and until he has evidence to support it?

First, in relation to what I said about Iraq, I was referring to the reports to which the hon. Gentleman draws attention. I accept that it may be some time before we can be sure that those reports are correct.

Secondly, in respect of Afghanistan, there are several reports about Chechen fighters being found in Afghanistan. I would simply say to the hon. Gentleman that Chechen extremism is well documented. I agree that, as he has said to me on previous occasions, it is important that the human rights of people in Chechnya are properly respected. However, I think that he would accept, would he not, that elements of fundamentalist extremist groups in Chechnya have carried out appalling terrorist atrocities in respect of people in Russia?

As we move from the first flush of youth into early middle age, we bring experience and wisdom to our jobs and like to think that our increasing age adds to what we can contribute to our constituents. When will the Government end the iniquity of age discrimination in our work force once and for all?

We are planning to take action against age discrimination. My hon. Friend may be a beneficiary of that: who knows?

Q8. [124294]

If the Iraq survey group has still not found weapons of mass destruction by the end of Parliament's summer recess, will the Prime Minister come to this House and make a statement along the same lines as the statement made by the right hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook)—a resignation statement?

As I said to the Liaison Committee yesterday, why do we not allow the Iraq survey group to carry out its work? As I told the Committee, I have no doubt at all that the intelligence that we received was accurate. The view of some people that the whole issue of Saddam and weapons of mass destruction is an invention of the CIA or British intelligence is absurd. The fact is that we know that when the inspectors left at the end of 1998, a huge amount of weaponry was unaccounted for. The proposition of the hon. Gentleman and others like him is simply this: that Saddam—having brought sanctions and military action on himself, and with all the problems that he had—voluntarily, having chucked the inspectors out, got rid of the weapons. I do not believe that thesis, and I am sure that the Iraq survey group will prove it to be wrong.

Cyprus

Q9. [124295]

What plans he has to visit Cyprus to meet the President of Cyprus.

I note that reply. Is my right hon. Friend aware, however, that in recent weeks in northern Cyprus there has been a dramatic change of attitude on the part of the Turkish Cypriot community, who have clearly said that they no longer accept the leadership of Rauf Denktash, no longer want the isolation that they have had for so long, and now want to be part of the European Union that the Republic of Cyprus will enter next year? Against that background, will the Prime Minister, when he next meets the Turkish Prime Minister, make it clear to him that he and his Government should start to enter into constructive dialogue in seeking a settlement in Cyprus for the benefit of Greek and Turkish Cypriots, who clearly now want to associate together?

My hon. Friend is right in the sense that there is a strong feeling among the Turkish Cypriots that they want to be part of the European Union and to have the benefits of membership. Of course, we will continue our discussions with both the Greek and the Turkish Governments to see how we can bring about a settlement. My hon. Friend may like to know that Kofi Annan recently made it clear that the UN proposals that we strongly supported remain on the table. I therefore very much hope that we are able to mount a constructive attempt to get the parties talking again to ensure that we can reach a settlement on this issue, which would be beneficial for all the people on the island of Cyprus.

Is the Prime Minister aware that 30 Members from all parties have presented petitions o n behalf of 1 million voters against the European proposals to ban 300 food and vitamin supplements? (Interruption]

Engagements

Q10. [124296]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Airbus 380 programme—he saw part of it last week at the Broughton site in north Wales; the manufacturing site is at Filton in my constituency—is vital not only to the future prosperity of the thousands of workers employed at those two sites but to the local economies and the national economy? Will he ensure that every possible assistance is given to the project, which reflects the best of British engineering?

I was delighted to participate in the opening of the West factory last Friday. As a result of £500,000 in launch aid, Airbus is today in a position where it can take over the leadership of the large aircraft market from Boeing in the United States. That would be tremendous for British manufacturing and for European industry. One of the great benefits is investment in new jobs, which is also an investment in the most highly skilled part of our work force. I welcome my hon. Friend's comments and congratulate the Airbus work force on their work.

Q11. [124297]

My constituents on the Isle of Wight pay their taxes like everyone else. However, they are the only ones in England who have to pay a charge every time they access the strategic road network. What will the Government announce in this afternoon's statement to redress that injustice?

I fear that I must ask the hon. Gentleman to wait for the announcement by the Secretary of State for Transport for that question to be answered.

Visits (Lancaster And Wyre)

Q12. [124298]

What plans he has to visit the Lancaster and Wyre constituency.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that disappointing response. I commend to him the 175 square miles of the glorious Lancaster and Wyre constituency and assure him of an extremely warm welcome there because the constituency is prospering under the Labour Government. May I recommend that he visits the city of Lancaster after what I imagine will be a successful referendum on an elected assembly for the north-west of England? He could then see for himself Lancaster's historical, cultural, geographical, scientific and technological claims to be the city at the heart of the north-west.

My hon. Friend's comments are a great encouragement to change my plans and to visit as soon as possible.

Engagements

Q14. [124300]

The Prime Minister will be aware of the importance of broadband technology throughout south Wales and that Maesteg and Pencoed in my constituency are the latest places to be enabled as exchanges. Will he join me in welcoming the initiative by Bridgend county borough council, the Bridgend Information Society project and BT in ensuring that we have access to broadband sooner or later? If he has time, will he join me in my internet surgery tomorrow?

I do not think that I will be able to join my hon. Friend in that, but his point about the rolling out of broadband is important. We are making huge progress in Britain in this extremely important area for the future, and in particular, as a result of the special measures and types of partnership that he has just been talking about, we are also extending the broadband roll-out in rural areas too. That is extremely important for the future health and prosperity of this country.

Q15. [124301]

Following the Prime Minister's earlier answer on the essential work of the Criminal Records Bureau, is he really satisfied that, when the service is so poor, its cost is to be raised by 150 per cent. this afternoon? Will he also tell the House what he has to say to care home owners who were asked to defer their checks so that schools could take priority and are now faced with a huge increase as a result? Are they expected to trust the Government?

I do not know about the latter point that the hon. Gentleman makes and I am perfectly happy to look into it, but in respect of the first point I would just say that the CRB is now issuing an average of 40,000 disclosures a week, and from having had a backlog of 50,000 cases, fewer than 5,000 are now outstanding. Yes, there is a great deal still to do, but I hope again, as I said to the hon. Member for Westbury (Dr. Murrison) earlier, that he recognises that the CRB is an important innovation that we do need, otherwise people would attack us for not making proper checks on those working in sensitive areas.

Skills Strategy

12.31 pm

:With permission, Mr Speaker, I shall make a statement on the Government's skills strategy.

We are today publishing a White Paper that sets out the Government's long-term strategy for improving and sustaining the development of skills in this country. Copies have been placed in the Library of the House. I believe that there is a consensus in the House, and more widely, on the need for this country to raise its skills levels. We must do that in order to become more competitive, to raise living standards, to increase productivity and to offer better opportunities for all.

It is widely recognised that, if we are to achieve the economic success that we all want, our most pressing educational challenge is to raise skills at all levels. It is in that area, rather than primary, secondary or higher education, that this country lags behind our international competitors. For example, the proportion of our work force qualified to the crucial intermediate level of technical and craft skills is low at 28 per cent., compared with 51 per cent. in France and 65 per cent. in Germany.

That is despite the fact that we have made progress in recent years. For example, the number of vocational A-levels and vocational GCSEs awarded has risen by over 40,000 in one year to reach 128,000 in 2002; the number of young people on modern apprenticeships has risen to over 234,000 in 2002; and 75 per cent. of 16 to 18-yearolds now stay on in education or training, the highest level since 1996.

Despite those advances, there remain major shortfalls—work force skills are lower in Britain than in many other countries; there are persistent skills deficits in such important areas as technical and craft skills, maths, and management and leadership; too many adults lack the skills and qualifications needed for sustainable employability; and too many young people are leaving education without the skills that employers need.

Those shortfalls are serious and the White Paper addresses them. We have consulted widely. The overwhelming view, which I heartily share, is that the need now is not for piecemeal initiatives or clever tactical gimmicks; it is to make much better use of what is already there and to put in place a strategic approach. We need a coherent, long-term, national strategy that provides easy access to high quality training, across the full range of skills from basic to advanced. It must be based upon a framework that offers flexibility, relevance and choice, and it must deliver the skills that are needed by both employees and employers, both jobseekers and the retired.

The main elements of that framework can be easily set out. First, at national level, a network of 23 sector skills councils will be fully in place by next summer covering the major sectors of the economy. The councils are a major new voice for employers and employees in their sector. They are charged with identifying the sector's present and future skill needs, ensuring that qualifications and training meet those needs, and getting employers to act together to invest in skills to raise productivity. They place employers and the workplace centre stage.

Secondly, at regional level, a powerful new partnership between regional development agencies and the learning and skills councils will link regional economic development goals with the skills to achieve them, focused on the needs of learners and employers. This will tie in business support services, so that businesses can get better access to the advice and help that they want. Thirdly, at local level training programmes—whether delivered in colleges or in the workplace—will be sharply focused on meeting those skills priorities in a truly demand-led, and therefore responsive, system.

This simple framework will help people to gain skills at all levels. It will create a regime in which education and training services genuinely have to respond to the demands of potential students—often employees—and employers. It will mean the expansion of modern apprenticeships to help more young people move from school into high quality, work-based training. We will lift the current age cap, so that adults will also be able to benefit. It will mean new opportunities for the millions of adults who do not currently possess a good foundation of skills for employability, enabling them to get their first level 2 qualification. It will mean that the skills for life campaign, through which adults gain basic literacy and numeracy skills, will be extended to include information and communications technology. It will mean more training to fill skills gaps at the higher technician and craft level—the so-called level 3—to meet regional or sectoral priorities. It will also mean that our new foundation degrees will be developed and expanded to meet the ever-growing demand from employers for advanced vocational skills.

To build this ladder of opportunity, we will introduce major reforms. We will develop a framework of qualifications for adults, based on units and credits that give learners and employers more flexibility to put together the package of training that they want. In addition, we will guarantee protection for leisure learning, particularly for pensioners and people on low incomes. We will ensure greater employer involvement in the design and delivery of modern apprenticeships, and provide better and clearer information for employers and potential students about the existing opportunities and available support, including an employer's guide to good training. We will expand the network of union learning representatives, which is focused on encouraging the low skilled to engage in training. We will give a new guarantee of free tuition for any adult without a good foundation of skills for employability, in order to provide the training that they need to gain a first level 2 qualification. We will introduce a new adult learning grant to support full-time adult learners in those priority groups, to meet the cost of learning. And we will use our employer training pilots to inform and guide our future national employers' training programme.

Better skills are needed for Britain to flourish. They are key to our economic success in an increasingly competitive world, and they are critical to our future in the European Union. The economic reform agenda agreed in Lisbon in 2000 reflects the importance of skills across Europe. Many of the topics addressed in the White Paper reflect the concerns shared by our European partners, and they reflect our determination to tackle the challenges of skills and mobility across the EU.

My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer told the House on 9 June, in his statement on economic and monetary union, that
"labour market flexibility and structural economic reform"
is
"at the heart of the new … policy guidelines for Europe",
that Britain must
"have the necessary flexibility to sustain growth and employment",
and that
"we are making structural reforms that will bring increased flexibility to our economy."—[Official Report, 9 June 2003: Vol. 406, c. 407–13.]
Such flexibility was the core of the Chancellor's second test for membership of economic and monetary union.

The Government believe that, the White Paper that I am publishing today is a major contribution to this increased flexibility, which is necessary to ensure that the British economy can respond quickly and efficiently to changes in economic conditions inside the single currency area, should the UK decide to join the economic and monetary union. Our proposals will help to ensure that the supply of skills in the labour market matches properly the skills that employers demand, and they will put in place mechanisms to eliminate mismatches in the demand and supply of different skills.

The changes that I have set out today represent the most ambitious agenda yet seen to tackle some deep-seated and long-standing weaknesses in our national skills base. They have been developed through a strong partnership between my Department and my colleagues in the Treasury, the Department of Trade and Industry and the Department for Work and Pensions. The Government will lead by example by ensuring that each Department properly addresses its own skills needs and gaps in the way that I have described.

Even more importantly, the strategy represents not simply a Government initiative, but a commitment from all the main social partners—the Government, the CBI, the TUC and the Small Business Council. All will be represented in the skills alliance, which we are establishing to carry through the implementation of the proposals, in a sustained and determined campaign finally to tackle the skills weaknesses that have dogged us for so long. I commend the statement to the House.

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for advance sight of the White Paper—and, indeed, for the usual steady stream of leaks and media appearances that allow us all to know what is in it long before the House can debate it.

The fact that this country's education system is relatively bad at developing non-academic skills is depressing, and it has been true for more than half a century. We never properly implemented the Butler Education Act 1944: we never built enough of the technical schools that Butler wanted; and generations have paid, and are still paying, the price. I fully recognise the sheer scale of the task facing the Government, but the question today is whether the White Paper even begins to meet that challenge. Sadly, it fails on several counts.

There are two main underlying failures. The first is that the policies in the White Paper are nothing like ambitious enough to deal with the problem—not in respect of the money spent, but in terms of recognition of the need for serious radical reform in this area of policy. The second is that the solution for which the Government have reached is predictably centralised, complicated and bureaucratic. Reflecting on the plethora of national, regional, local and cross-cutting structures that the Government are setting up, it is clear that everyone will spend more time liaising than training. By the time all the committee meetings are finished, there will not be enough energy left to produce the computer engineers, builders and plumbers that we need. I hope that the colleges that will deliver much of the training can cope, especially when page 96 of the document shows that they will be under ever-closer Government control.

Let me first address the document's poverty of vision. The £30 grant for an adult on a full-time course might help at the margin, and might encourage some people to go on a course. However, for Ministers to pretend that tens of thousands of people will find their chances in life transformed is a fantasy. How many more people does the Secretary of State believe will go into full-time education or training as a result of this measure?

Whatever happened to the replacement for individual learning accounts? As recently as 15 April this year, the Secretary of State told Computer Weekly that the creation of "ILA part two", as he put it, was "a high priority". He was right. I realise that ILAs were an expensive embarrassment for the Department, and that the Secretary of State has said that it could not afford to make the same mistake again, but giving up altogether on the idea of giving people some control over their own training needs is a hopeless retreat. Can he tell us when he decided to drop that commitment and why?

Most important of all in respect of what should be in the document but is not, is why there is so little about what will happen in schools to promote skills. Giving people a helping hand if they have fallen through the net is admirable and necessary, but it would help them even more if the net were designed in such a way that they did not fall through it in the first place. It is bizarre that the Government have produced a document on a skills strategy while waiting for a report on the school exam system, which will presumably give them some guidance about vocational qualifications and how we should be teaching skills in schools. Does the Secretary of State agree that one of the key advantages of the system used in most other European countries is the early availability of technical and vocational education, and can he tell the House why this document fails to address it?

Carolyn Hayman, the chief executive of the Foyer Federation—an admirable body—said this morning:
"In practice, those who fail to gain qualifications while at school are unlikely to fulfil their potential later in life."
She is right, which is why a skills strategy that concentrates only on adults will not work.

There is also the problem that every solution in the document smacks of central planning and regionalisation. Will the Secretary of State confirm that the charmingly named "Unique Learner Number" on page 66 is, in fact, an identity card, and can he tell the House what level of compulsion he plans for the use of that card? How fast does he expect the regional skills alliances to be formed? Given his Department's record on the sector skills councils—three years on from the grand announcement that they would transform training, it appears that only two have been fully licensed—how will he ensure that such delays do not happen again? How does he propose to ensure that employers have the real say in what they require from training and trainees. Bodies that report to the Secretary of State seem to dominate the bodies that he will set up, even though industry spends £23 billion annually on training, or three times the budget of the Learning and Skills Council.

The country needs a well-trained and well-educated work force, so that we can offer a fair deal to everyone. Sadly, today we have learned that the Government have decided just to fiddle with the edges of the skills problem. We have had lots of warm words and some minor improvements, but no sense of the urgency of the problem or the depth of the changes needed. The country needed radical reform: instead, this is a timid, half-hearted disappointment that does not measure up to the importance of the task.

The hon. Gentleman is wrong in every single one of his allegations. He suggested that our solution is centralised and bureaucratic, with committees and so on. In fact, the reverse is true. Through co-operation with my colleagues in the Government, we will create—for the first time—a system that will achieve an immediate one-stop shop for everybody concerned, to do what needs to be done. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that employers, and everybody else, have had to deal with a complicated and difficult system, but we will replace it with one that will work well.

The hon. Gentleman accuses us of a lack of ambition, but I do not accept that. Ambition is not about words, but about doing. The hon. Gentleman ridiculed the sector skills councils, but the two that already exist are making rapid and major progress and the others, which are being created according to the timetable set out in the White Paper, are making progress faster than they otherwise would have done. If the hon. Gentleman took the trouble to talk to employers—for example, Digby Jones at the CBI—about the issue, which I commend him to do, he would see that employers positively want to engage in the process. That is because we have put them centre stage, as we needed to do.

The hon. Gentleman is also wrong about the replacements for the ILAs. We have put together three specific replacements. The first is the entitlement to free learning up to level 2 for those who have not achieved it. The second is the inclusion of information and communication technology in the skills strategy, and the third is the ability to provide courses up to level 3 in those sectors and regions where that is necessary. That is a comprehensive programme that will put in place real opportunities for people to learn.

I accept, up to a point, the hon. Gentleman's remarks about schools for the 14–19 age group, but he will—or at least he should—have studied the detailed document on 14&19 provision that we produced earlier this year specifically to address the issues he raises. He is right to say that we must develop a much stronger relationship between work and school for pupils from the age of 14. Mike Tomlinson's inquiry will address that specific point, and several measures to deal with it are also alluded to in the White Paper.

The response from employers has been positive, because we are putting them centre stage so that we have education and training that meets their needs. That is as it should be. The issue for colleges is whether they can ensure—it will be tough for them—that the courses they put on meet the needs of employers in their locality. That is the challenge that we are setting, and our approach to it is far more radical than anything else that has been done in recent times to address those historic problems.

I thank the Secretary of State for the advance copy of his statement and of the White Paper. I also thank the Minister for Lifelong Learning, Further and Higher Education, who has been running the process, for the way in which we have been kept in touch during its lengthy development. We congratulate the Government on their attempt to do what no other Government have done in my working lifetime, and that is to deal with the chronic skills shortage in the work force. That is not a modern phenomenon, because the problem has existed since the post-war years.

We also wish to support the Secretary of State in his desire to have a demand-led strategy, but that demand should come not only from employers, but from individuals and, indeed, the state—because it also has demands that need to be met. We recognise the need for an inclusive approach. We welcome the fact that four Departments will work together, but which will take the lead? As we know from the problems with schools funding, the lack of a lead Department can cause an awful mess.

We give a cautious welcome to the skills alliance. The Secretary of State would probably agree that it has all the hallmarks of a highly corporatist structure, and as such is a throwback to the 1970s and the Manpower Services Commission. We must avoid that corporatism at all costs. I hope that the Secretary of State will give us an insight into how such a massive organisation can ever hope to be responsive to individuals and individual employers. The saving grace is the late inclusion of the Higher Education Funding Council. My party accepts that the skills strategy will remain incomplete unless the universities are involved and delivering high-level skills.

Will the Secretary of State assure the House that the proposal is not a back-door attempt to force some universities to become teaching-only institutions, designed to deliver level 4 skills? Will he assure the House that the foundation degree—which we support—will serve both as an end qualification and as a staging post to honours and postgraduate qualifications?

We welcome the universal entitlement to training at level 2, paid for by the state, but what has happened to the universal entitlement for 19 to 30-year-olds studying at level 3? That was openly promised before. If there is to be a regional lottery for support for students at level 3, who will make the decisions—the planners, the employers, or students themselves?

How will individual learners or employers make sense of the tangled web of quangos that will exist at regional level? They will include sector skills councils, RDAs, local learning and skills councils. Jobcentre Plus and business link, not to mention the emerging regional assemblies. Those assemblies will probably appear in the north-west, Yorkshire and Humber and the north-east. Which of those organisations will take the lead?

We welcome the adult learner grant as another positive step. Will the Secretary of State explain why a full-time level 4 student studying from home needs £3,000 by way of support, whereas a level 3 student is expected to manage on £1,500? That is an important question.

Will the Secretary of State look again at the support for modern apprenticeships? We welcome the fact that the bar has been raised from 25 to 28. That is positive, but why has it not been lifted altogether? If adults are to work until they are 70, is not there a need for an adult modern apprenticeship, to encourage people in their 30s and 40s to go down that route?

We have long championed credit accumulation as the way to approach qualifications in education and skills. We warmly welcome the unit-based system. We accept the need to learn the lessons from individual learning accounts, but when does the Secretary of State expect such a system to be in operation? Will he give further education colleges immediate authorisation to deliver bite-sized units to employers? Will he enable them to draw down the necessary resources from the learning and skills councils? That is what colleges need to do, and what employers want.

Will the Secretary of State explain whether colleges are now to have what are, in effect, top-up fees? Unless they collect the resources from employers for the skills training that they deliver, they will not be able to meet their income targets and will therefore go under.

We warmly welcome what the Secretary of State has produced today. We are prepared to be supportive, but I suspect that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is writing the manifesto as we speak, will deliver the big ideas for the next general election.

I appreciate that fairly strong support—albeit expressed in a lukewarm way—from the hon. Gentleman. I am glad to say that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and I have worked closely on these proposals, and our work has been both strong and positive.

I shall deal first with the points about the need for the provisions to be demand led. As the hon. Gentleman said, the key must lie with employers and individuals, and to a lesser extent with the state. One of the shocking things about our skills shortages is that we do not understand enough about where they exist. What types of skills are needed, at what levels, in each sector? The level of confidence that ought to exist between employers in certain sectors and the education and training system is missing, which means that we are not getting good answers to those questions. The development of sector skills councils will allow us to address the problem in a very sharp way. The state will not decide what skills are needed: employers and the individuals involved will do that.

The hon. Gentleman described the proposals as corporatism, but that is not so. The lead clearly lies with my Department, but we will work with all the other partners. For the first time, we are bringing the deliverers together, as in the case of the Higher Education Funding Council, but we also want to continue to work with the social partners, as already happens.

I can confirm that the foundation degree, to which we give great priority, will be both an end in itself and part of a flexible system that will allow people to move on to other areas. We want the foundation degree to be regarded as an end in itself. One of the excellent things to happen in the discussions that preceded the White Paper was that many employers' organisations in both the public and private sectors regard the foundation degree as a very positive development. I am optimistic that we will be able to make good progress in this area.

The hon. Gentleman made an important point about level 3. The philosophy underlying the White Paper is that we believe that employers should make a far bigger cash commitment to training than is the case at present. We identify various ways in which that can be encouraged and moved forward. We say, therefore, that the state must put in resources when employers fail to do so—where there has been what might be called a market failure. We identify skills up to levels 2 and 3—at all—ages in which there has been clear failure in a particular sector or region. That reflects our priorities in targeting economic resources.

The hon. Gentleman is wrong to say that there will be a tangled web of quangos, although that used to be the case in the past. What we propose will untangle major parts of the web, in particular by giving the RDAs the lead role when it comes to sorting out the mess that has often existed in every region.

We are talking about lifting the cap on modern apprenticeships. The question from the hon. Gentleman on that matter may have resulted from a failure of understanding. If I misunderstood his remarks on that, I shall speak to him outside the Chamber.

Finally, on the bite-sized credit approach to education, we strongly agree with that approach, but it is critical that any curriculums or bitesized credits that are available have value in the employment market. They must be of value to employers. We do not want colleges to develop products that they then try to sell to employers. We want there to be proper dialogue that allows employers to say what sort of education and skills their people need. The White Paper is all about working to make that happen.

Anyone who cares about this country's skills base in this new century will welcome the White Paper enthusiastically and warmly. That it has taken the Government six years to get around to it shows that there is a hint of criticism even among Labour Members. However, we have finally got it.

My right hon. Friend will know that the Select Committee on Education and Skills has trawled through the higher education White Paper, and its positive response will be published tomorrow. The same thing will happen with today's White Paper.

I welcome the fact that the proposals cover all Departments. For too long, there has been no recognition that a massive amount of training goes on in the Department for Work and Pensions, for example, and in the health sector and elsewhere—in fact, in many more than the big four Departments. However, there will be difficulties as a lot of corporatist, quango-type organisations are involved. I hope that my right hon. Friend is right that the web will be unravelled by making the RDAs the lead authorities, but I hope that he will remember that the people who deliver skills are the crucial ones. They are the people on the ground—teachers, lecturers, non-governmental organisations, charities and bodies in the public sector. It is very important the he gets that balance right, but the Select Committee is looking forward to examining the White Paper very closely, and we hope that we can improve it.

I very much appreciate my hon. Friend's remarks. As always, I shall be delighted to debate the White Paper with the Select Committee, which always addresses these matters in a constructive way.

I shall deal first with some of the specific matters raised by my hon. Friend. I believe that the White Paper will go a long way towards untangling the existing web of institutions. However, if the Select Committee can find ways to untangle the web even more, I shall be delighted to talk about how we can take that forward.

Secondly, it is important to say that none of this will happen without the commitment of a wide range of organisations, as well as public sector employers and private sector employers. The proposals are not just about the private sector; they are not just about what goes in private businesses; they are about what goes in employment right across the piece, whether in great public services such as education and health, in prisons or wherever it may happen to be. I very much welcome that. However, what we need from each employer is commitment; more than anything else, we must generate that. The greatest danger to the success of the document would be for everyone to say, "That is very interesting but we're not really going to do much about it". We need to encourage real engagement, not only across government but across our whole society.

I welcome a lot of what the Secretary of State said, not least because businesses have been crying out for a long time for a framework that really is demand-led. Is he aware of the excellent work being done by the Construction Industry Training Board at the national construction college in west Norfolk? Is he also aware of the groundbreaking student apprenticeship programme that is being launched at West Anglia college, of which the principal, Peter Stewart, and John Brierly, of the Norfolk learning and skills council, are rightly proud?

The Secretary of State talked a lot about greater employer involvement in the design and delivery of schemes. How will that actually be achieved on the ground? How will employers and small businesses actually feed in their requirements? Is not there danger of a confused chain of command between national, regional and local bodies?

Order. I remind the House that there is to be another statement and that when we get to the main debate there will be a limit on Back-Bench speeches. I expect only one supplementary question, therefore, and I hope that hon. Members will bear that in mind.

I shall try to be brief, Mr. Speaker.

I am aware of the points raised by the hon. Member for North-West Norfolk (Mr. Bellingham); indeed, I held discussions with the CITB recently. The key thing is the relationship between the college and the employer locally, and ensuring that dialogue takes place. I know that is happening in Norfolk and I believe that it will also happen throughout the country.

I especially welcome the expansion of the modern apprenticeship scheme. We are all aware that skilled joiners, plumbers, plasterers and electricians are in short supply. Our big problem is how to challenge society's perceptions whereby such people are placed low on the social ladder. How can we raise society's perceptions and give value and credit to those skills?

My hon. Friend's point hits the bull's-eye. The core of the document is that vocational and technical education is important and critical. If there is one factor that explains how badly the figures that I read out compare with those for other countries, it is that in other countries, especially European countries, vocational and technical education are valued, while, for a variety of reasons, that has not happened in this country. I hope that the document will help to achieve that.

Is not the real skills problem in this country due to the fact that 23 per cent. of adults cannot read properly, compared, for example, with 7 per cent. in Sweden? We have one of the worst adult literacy rates in the developed world. Is not the reason for that the fact that there is too little use of synthetic phonics in the teaching of reading in our primary schools? Should not that be the focus of the Secretary of State's attention in the coming period?

It is true that up to 7 million adults in this country do not have level 2 skills, but if I were a Conservative I would draw a veil over the education system during the years when that party was in charge of it. However, the hon. Gentleman is right to say that we have to focus on improving primary education in the way that we are doing, as we debate in the Select Committee and elsewhere.

I welcome the statement. I stress to my right hon. Friend that we need flexibility, especially in the funding streams, to allow community colleges and FE colleges not only to meet the needs of businesses but to enter partnerships, such as the one that he will see tomorrow when he visits my constituency. That partnership between a local primary school and the FE college has increased the skills base among adults on an estate, which is improving their quality of life and their ability to help their children through their education. Such flexibility will make the strategy work.

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. The document is about flexibility and about making skills and education available for everybody. My hon. Friend was formerly a taxi driver, which has tempted me to point out that taxi drivers sometimes show a combination of skills and general erudition that we might try to spread throughout the whole country.

On behalf of my colleagues, I welcome the statement. I agree that we need a coherent, long-term national strategy. Can the Secretary of State assure me that those in the Northern Ireland Office and Northern Ireland Ministers will be fully briefed on these matters, and that the opportunities will be available to our young people in Northern Ireland, too? Does he agree that all employers—whether big or small—have a responsibility to share the burden and to deliver, and that the attitude of the past, where small companies poached from larger ones, will not do for the future?

I agree 100 per cent. with the hon. Gentleman in his final point about the role of employers. Indeed, that is why employers are central to our strategy. Not only will we consult with colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office, we have done so throughout the preparation of the document and I hope that it will be as useful in Northern Ireland as I believe that it will be in the rest of the country.

In developing this welcome strategy, will my right hon. Friend ensure that attention is paid to how we can tackle the occupational segregation between men and women? Last week, the Equal Opportunities Commission launched an inquiry into modern apprenticeships to find out what can be done to break down some of the barriers, which are one reason why there is still a 19 per cent. pay gap between men and women.

I can confirm that we shall do precisely what my hon. Friend suggested. In fact, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, in her capacity as Minister for Women, has made a number of specific interventions in the document, precisely to meet the point that my hon. Friend made. My right hon. Friend will chair jointly with me the skills alliance nationally. I am confident that the preoccupations on which my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Judy Mallaber) campaigns, and which I, too, share, will be met throughout the implementation of the strategy.

I hesitate to ask this, but has the Secretary of State set a quantifiable target for the expansion of modern apprenticeships? After all, we are living in a world where it is easier to find someone to write a skills strategy than to get a plumber.

The target that we set for modern apprenticeships was 28 per cent. by 2004. However, in the spirit of the exchanges at Prime Minister's questions, we are looking carefully at what would be the best targets to motivate success in that sphere.

May I ask my right hon. Friend a further question about poaching? In some industries, such as print, construction and engineering, poaching has always been a major phenomenon; in effect, the good employers subsidise the bad. Although I respect much of what my right hon. Friend is trying to achieve through the White Paper, if we continue to find what he described as market failure, will he make it clear that the Government will keep compulsion in reserve?

I can confirm that. We have held substantial conversations with colleagues in the trade union movement, including the general secretary of the Graphical, Paper and Media Union, whose concerns about the printing industry are close to my hon. Friend's heart. We have to acknowledge that there are substantial differences of position across the whole range of sectors of industry. We recognise the achievements in the engineering and construction industries, which is why they are where they are now. In answer to my hon. Friend's specific question, I confirm that we shall keep open what it is necessary to do in other sectors if employers are not prepared to work in the way that we have set out, although I am confident that they will want to work in that way.

I was delighted to hear the Secretary of State say, in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Mr. Willis), that, in future, demand from employers would drive skills provision in our further education colleges and other places. Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that some of our more traditional industries are beginning to withdraw some of their employment, no doubt due to international competition, and that the greatest demand for new skills and the greatest number of jobs are actually in the creative industries? Can he assure us that he will not refer to such skills as Mickey Mouse skills, and that he will ensure that they are provided?

That concept is at the core of what we are about. Each sector, including the creative industries, has to establish which skills it currently needs and which skills it will need in 10, 20 or 30 years if it is to be internationally competitive. We need to determine the current state of skills in each sector and the action that needs to be taken, in terms of qualifications, provision of courses and so on, to close the gap. That will differ sector by sector; the situation will be different for each sector. The problem is that not enough attention was paid to the way that skills and innovation work together—perhaps I should have emphasised more strongly that we want to work with colleagues in the Department of Trade and Industry on how to do that. There has not been enough looking to the future, so—out of a blue sky—some global competition has wiped out thousands of jobs in this country in a wholly destructive way. The White Paper is about preparing our population for the future challenges in each sector.

Does the Minister agree that there have been some dramatic changes in the pattern of work in parts of Britain—the coalfields? We got some money for Shirebrook and the Markham employment zone, and all the rest. There is a potential for 8,000 jobs, and most of those people will need retraining. We have got loads of further education colleges on the doorstep. Will the White Paper ensure that the two things are married together, so that those great projects at Shirebrook and Bolsover can go ahead successfully?

:I hope that the White Paper will do precisely that. What my hon. Friend indicates, quite correctly, is that there has been a series of different approaches—the initiatives that he describes, the employment zones and so on—all of which are all worth while on their own account, but we have to bring them together in a focused and targeted way to address the skills and training needs of the population, which he and other hon. Members represent. We need more joined-up work on that, which is what the White Paper is all about, so I hope that I can give the assurance that he seeks.

My right hon. Friend's statement will be very much welcomed in the north-west, where the acquisition of skills is essential for economic prosperity. Will he indicate how individuals, who may be in or out of employment, can gain access to the opportunities offered, so that we can make a reality of our statement that we regard the acquisition of skills as being as important as the acquisition of academic qualifications?

There are essentially three points where that relationship becomes particularly acute: first, in the place of work—the employment—which is why we have union learning funds and so on, because people in work need to know where to go to develop their skills; secondly, with Jobcentre Plus, which is why the partnership with my colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions is so important; and thirdly, in schools and colleges, where that contact is particularly important. Those areas will deliver precisely what my hon. Friend is looking for, in providing real choices to enable people to improve themselves.

I very much welcome the White Paper, which is the most important statement on skills for the past 50 years. I particularly welcome my right hon. Friend's consultative approach to developing his proposals, especially the commitment to the level 2 entitlement, the role of the trade union learning representatives, the importance of learning for pensioners and the development of the national training programme.

Given that the current employer training pilot schemes are due to finish in the autumn of 2004, will the evaluation be completed in time for the national training programme to continue seamlessly at the beginning of 2005? Does he agree that it would be extremely unfortunate if there were a gap between ending the pilot schemes and developing the national scheme?

I can give my hon. Friend that assurance, and I appreciate his remarks. What is particularly important is that, as we move to the national model, we learn from the evaluation of the employer training pilot schemes. The initial perceptions of people who have seen and understood those schemes are that they have been very successful, and it is a question of taking the lessons of good practice that have been established there. The director general of the CBI told me just the other day that he had visited three schemes and seen real liberation, a thirst for learning and employers changing their views, and we need to learn from that in the new system that we establish.

I should also like to congratulate my right hon. Friend on the ongoing advancement in skills strategy, particularly in light of the fact that we brought together the Further Education Funding Council and the training and enterprise councils and cut bureaucracy, as has been mentioned, but will he assure me that, as well as employers, the local FE colleges will be involved in the consultation, so that they can have an input into the strategy?

I can give my hon. Friend that absolute assurance. The colleges are obviously at the centre of our approach, which we are discussing with individual colleges and the Association of Colleges, but there is a big issue, which I need to be quite frank about: it is necessary that many FE colleges take to heart the message of the White Paper, which is that our approach is employer-led in developing training courses that meet the needs of local employment. Many in the FE sector are absolutely up for that in a very positive and exciting way—this is a big reform agenda, to be frank—but they will be fully involved.

Some national skill shortages are well known—several hon. Members have mentioned plumbing, for example—but other shortages are localised. Will my right hon. Friend assure me that, in collecting information about skill shortages and in taking decisions about how to meet them, some sensitivity will be given to local needs?

For precisely that reason, the local learning and skills councils and the regional development agencies will together particularly address local issues, but I have one caution: it is very important that skills assessments in any locality—whether in Staffordshire or Norfolk—take account of national trends in all the sectors. If account is not taken of the national and international market place, it will lead to significant difficulties. That is what we are trying to avoid.

Transport Investment

1.15 pm

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement about the next stage in implementing our transport investment programme. I also want to set out how we are planning ahead to meet the pressures that we know we will face on our roads in 20 to 30 years' time.

The pressures now on road and rail are well known. We are dealing with the consequences of decades of under-investment, coupled with the pressures of rising prosperity. We are one of the largest economies in the world. People are better off, and they are travelling more. Our future prosperity depends on us helping people and goods to move around as efficiently as possible, but we must do so in a way that is consistent with our environmental and social objectives.

The Government are committed to sustained, high levels of investment in transport, with £180 billion of public and private investment over 10 years—a 45 per cent. increase in real terms, compared with the previous decade. Last December, I announced major investment in roads, light rail and local transport in the light of recommendations from studies of five strategic routes. Today, I am announcing the next stage: my decisions in relation to a further 11 studies, covering the south coast, west midlands, Tyneside, south and west Yorkshire, Hull, the Thames valley, the M25, the M60 around Manchester, and the corridors between London to Ipswich, Norwich to Peterborough and London to the south midlands.

Full details of all my decisions will be available in the Vote Office, but I want now to set out the approach we are taking. First, we are making better use of existing infrastructure, by improving its management and dealing with bottlenecks. Secondly, we are improving public transport, so that it provides a better choice. Thirdly, we are investing in new capacity where it is needed to tackle congestion and improve safety. Fourthly, we are planning ahead for the pressures that we know that we will face in 20 to 30 years' time. I will deal with each of those in turn.

The first stage must be to make better use of the road capacity that we have already. That is why we are giving the Highways Agency new powers to manage traffic, and why the agency will establish a regional control centre in the west midlands next year to monitor trunk roads and provide up-to-date, reliable information to motorists.

Not all roads are congested all the time, but sections of many roads are under pressure during at least part of the day. That is why, from next year, on the M42 at peak hours, we will see controlled use by cars of the hard shoulder, operating under stringent safety conditions. That, combined with variable speed limits and other measures, will ease congestion and help keep traffic flowing. Today, I have asked the agency to assess the results of that pilot scheme before I consider the case for widening the M42.

Following study recommendations, I shall ask the agency to examine improved traffic management to tackle congestion on other routes, including in the Thames valley, parts of the M60 in Manchester and sections of the M1, M62 and M18 in south and west Yorkshire, including the possibility of hard shoulder running at peak hours there as well. We shall be consulting motoring organisations and others to make sure that we get the detail right.

We also need to continue with road improvements to tackle bottlenecks to improve safety and reliability. So I shall ask the Highways Agency to work up proposals to tackle bottlenecks, including improvements to a number of junctions on A19 in Tyneside; improvements to junctions and limited widening on the M27 around Southampton; and improvements at the Brook Street interchange between the M25 and A12.

The second element of our strategy is to invest in improvements to rail and other public transport to provide a better choice for travellers. Work is already under way to improve the main rail arteries—for example, the £9 billion upgrade of the west coast main line, plans to enhance the capacity of the east coast main line, a strategy to make better use of capacity for the midland main line, as well as a £1 billion investment in a new power supply south of the Thames and the biggest replacement programme for rolling stock ever seen in this country.

Against that background, those studies made a number of further recommendations. Some of their objectives are already being taken forward by the Strategic Rail Authority, including a new hourly service between Ashford and Brighton, to be introduced with the new franchise in 2005, and a proposed hourly service from London to Leeds through Nottingham. The SRA is examining the business case for reopening the east-west rail link between Bedford and Oxford. In Kent, the SRA is also examining how to integrate new and existing domestic services to make better use of the channel tunnel rail link.

The Thames study also recommended better public transport links between the Thames valley and Heathrow. The SRA and the BAA are developing a new service to Heathrow, which it aims to start late next year, enabling more people to travel to the airport by public transport, from both the Thames valley and west London. Over 10 years, we will invest £33 billion of direct public expenditure in rail. By 2005, we will be spending double what we did in 2001. I am asking the SRA to look at how it can meet other study objectives through its work to make better use of the network and the refranchising process.

Most journeys, however, are local trips of fewer than five miles. Within our 10-year investment programme, therefore, we have already included £19 billion worth of capital spending to improve local transport across the country, and last December I announced substantial investment in local public transport. Today, the west midlands study specifically looked at local transport in the largest conurbation outside London. It recommended major improvements, including extensions to the light rail system and substantial investment in better bus routes. In the light of that, I have decided to make up to a £1 billion available for further improvements to local transport in the west midlands over the next seven years, dependent on the passenger transport authority bringing forward realistic plans.

By next year, we will be giving local authorities three times more money for local transport as they had in 1997. Today, I am asking authorities to work up proposals for a range of improvements recommended in the studies. I also support recommendations for local authorities and bus operators to develop an extended network of bus and coach services to make that a more attractive option.

We are therefore making better use of existing capacity and investing in improvements to public transport. Even after doing that, however, pressures will still be on the road network. On any view, existing capacity is not enough to cope with today's demands let alone the pressures that we will face. As the 10-year plan made clear, we need to widen and improve trunk roads to tackle congestion and improve safety and make journeys more reliable. That brings me to the third element of our approach.

Today, I am endorsing recommendations for improvements to some trunk roads of regional importance: for example, widening to three lanes the Al2 from Colchester to the M25; widening the Mll to three lanes between junctions 8 and 9; a northern bypass for Dunstable; and dualling the A421 from Bedford to the M1. We also need to invest in improvements to capacity on key arterial routes, however. Last December, I announced proposals to widen to four lanes both the M6 between Manchester and Birmingham and the M1 through the east midlands, as well as other major improvements. The studies that we are dealing with today recommended further improvements to strategic road arteries, including further stretches of the M1 and the M25.

Today, therefore, I am asking the Highways Agency to develop proposals to widen the M1 from the M25 to Milton Keynes to four lanes and also to widen parts of the M1, M62, Al(M) and M18 in south and west Yorkshire. That, in conjunction with the measures that I announced earlier, will significantly expand capacity of the M1 from London to Yorkshire. A third of the M25 already has four lanes. Today, I am also asking the agency to take forward the study recommendation to widen most of the remaining three-lane sections of the M25 to four lanes, and, as recommended by the west midlands study, to develop a strategic link between the new M6 toll road and the M54. Many of these improvements support the Government's plans for the growth areas in the Thames gateway, between London and Cambridge and in the Milton Keynes-south midlands area.

We have to bear in mind that our central objective is to enable people to travel in a way that is consistent with our environmental and social objectives. There are therefore some recommendations in these studies that I cannot accept. As I said before, unless there is an overriding public interest in a scheme, there should be a strong presumption against building roads through areas of outstanding natural beauty or other sensitive sites. We have a clear duty to do everything that we can to preserve the environment. On regeneration grounds, the west midlands study recommended dual carriageways around Stourbridge and Wolverhampton. The justification, however, as the local planning inquiry recognised, was doubtful. These roads would cut through an area of remarkable unspoilt countryside. I believe that we can find better ways of achieving regeneration of the west midlands. That is why I reject those proposals and instead support the case for the regional assembly's study of regeneration in the black country.

Similarly, on the south coast, the Arundel bypass would cut across water meadows damaging an area of outstanding beauty. I am rejecting that proposal, as well as proposals to expand junctions with flyovers on the Chichester bypass and the proposal for a tunnel at Worthing. Each, in my view, has environmental consequences that are unacceptable and avoidable. In addition, at an estimated cost of more than £500 million, there are question marks over the Worthing tunnel's affordability. There are problems on these roads, however, and I am therefore asking the Highways Agency to identify alternative solutions, recognising the need to support planned economic growth. In addition, on environmental grounds, I am asking the agency to take a hard look at other recommendations to see if there are less damaging alternatives. For example, I accept the need for safety improvements to the level crossing on the A27 at Beddingham. The road already runs through an area of outstanding natural beauty, however, and I am asking the agency to redesign the scheme to reduce its impact on the surrounding landscape.

I have set out today how we have adopted a measured and balanced approach: targeting action where it is most needed, making better use of existing capacity, investing in public transport and strategic increases in capacity. However, I believe that we now need to go further, which brings me to the fourth element of our approach.

Looking ahead, as the economy grows and people become better-off, we know that we will face increasing pressures on road space. As I have said previously, looking 20 to 30 years ahead, we cannot build our way out of all the pressures that we face. Now is the right time to examine how making use of modern technology could make better use of road space in the future. As we do that, we will do it in a new context. In the next four years, we will introduce charging for all lorries using UK roads based on the distance that they travel. Accompanied by a reduction in fuel duty, overall, the UK haulage industry will not pay more. That will allow us in future, for example, by varying charges, to encourage lorries to use motorways at off-peak times.

Clearly, however, there is a world of difference between a scheme for 430,000 lorries and one for 26 million cars. No country in the world has done anything on such a scale before. Technically, that is an entirely different proposition to congestion charging in London, for example, where a charge is paid to drive within a boundary. There are many issues that need to be addressed, such as the protection of privacy and whether such a scheme could work technically. That is why the time has come to set up a feasibility study to investigate these issues in detail. Last month, my Department held a seminar for motoring, business and environmental groups and others to look at these issues. It was clear that for a scheme to be sustainable in the long term there needs to be a consensus—not just politically but a consensus across the country.

Today, therefore, I am publishing a discussion paper looking at managing roads to get the best out of the road space that we have, the possibilities opened up by new technology, and getting the balance right between additional capacity and measures that ensure that benefits are locked in, whether through physical measures or pricing. Copies of this discussion paper will be available from the Vote Office. Our objective must be to provide a better deal for the motorist. Road pricing would be a radically different approach, but it could have huge potential to reduce congestion to allow faster, more reliable journeys, giving motorists a better choice about how and when they travel. We would be failing future generations if we did not test its feasibility and examine the gains that could come from it.

We are investing in major improvements to our transport infrastructure—both road and rail. We are putting right decades of neglect and underinvestment. We are facing up to the pressures that we know that we will face in the future. I commend this statement to the House.

I thank the Secretary of State for his customary courtesy in providing me with a copy of his statement. Let me begin by declaring both an interest and a direct personal experience. In the 1960s and early 1970s the farm on which I grew up was surrounded by peaceful countryside. Then it was decided to put the M11 through a field to one side of the house. Later, the M25 was put through a field directly behind the house. After that, we had to get used to bright lights throughout the night and a constant roar of traffic 24 hours a day. Quick checks indicate that what the Secretary of State has announced—widening motorways largely within the present embankments—seems unlikely to have much effect on that family home or the businesses on those parts of the surrounding land owned by my family, but it may make things a little noisier.

Given that personal background, I have every sympathy with those who are concerned about the impact on themselves and their environment from road projects. However, like the vast majority of those living near motorways, I use them myself; and like absolutely everyone else in this country I rely on goods and services almost entirely carried by road. Whatever the personal inconvenience to some of us, and however close to home it gets, the fact remains that Britain urgently needs an upgraded road network. Whatever other accusations may be levelled at me, I therefore hope that I can be acquitted of nimbyism—my family's back yard is already more than playing its part.

Does the Secretary of State accept that his announcements today on widening several motorways and dealing with a number of bottlenecks are hugely welcome but also hugely belated?

I will not ask the Secretary of State to apologise for the shocking blind alley down which the Government went after 1997 when they seemed to believe that, if they stuck their head in the sand and refused to build any new roads at all, the needs of business and motorists would simply go away. I will not ask him for an apology, because it was not his decision. However, will he please get an apology from the man who got it all so catastrophically wrong throughout the last Parliament—the Deputy Prime Minister?

Does the Secretary of State understand the genuine anger of many businesses, large and small, at the fact that their competitiveness has been steadily eroded by the growing gap between the quality of the British road network and that in the rest of Europe? Will he confirm that, even with today's announcements, we will still have a smaller road building programme than in many other European Union member states and that, after its completion, we will still have significantly fewer miles of motorway per head of population than any other major EU country? Will he also confirm that, even with these projects, he does not think he has a prayer of hitting the targets in the 10-year transport plan for cutting congestion?

On rail, will the Secretary of State confirm that, while he boasts that he will double the amount spent by the taxpayer between 2001 and 2005, it will be 2010 before train punctuality returns to the levels of 2000. On buses and coaches, why has he specifically rejected the recommendation of the M25 orbit multi-modal study for a strategic authority to create a high-quality orbital coach network?

The Secretary of State indicated today that he wants to toy with the idea of road pricing in order, presumably, to appease the environmentalist lobby. But, characteristically, he does not actually want to commit himself, lest he antagonise motorists. Should he not stop playing a game of tease, and admit his real intentions? Was not his silence on several key points about road pricing immensely instructive? Who would pay for the installation of the necessary hi-tech equipment in each and every car on our roads—the Government or the driver?

What about the confidentiality of the records kept by the road pricing computers? This Government used medical records to smear a little old lady who complained about her hospital treatment, so how could they remotely be trusted not to abuse computer records giving information about where every driver in the country drives for every minute of the day or night?

With Ministers having already exempted themselves from paying the congestion charge, why was there no pledge that they would themselves pay any road pricing charges that they introduce? Does the Secretary of State not see that it would be absolutely scandalous if, yet again, the Government introduced one law for themselves and a different law for everyone else? Above all, why was there no categorical assurance—indeed, no assurance at all—that road pricing charges would not be additional to the sky-high motoring taxes that we already have? Does not that show that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would simply use road pricing as yet another stealth tax—this one a particularly punitive, regressive and vicious stealth tax—on top of all the other tax rises the Government promised not to bring in but then slapped on the British people?

How can the Secretary of State possibly believe that charging motorists for driving on any road, at the eye-watering figure of up to 50p a mile, can remotely be justified when we already have the highest fuel taxes in the western world? When will the Government learn that they should stop seeking to penalise, persecute, harass and overtax the British motorist? When will they accept that driving is not a sin?

All that the Secretary of State has promised us today on the roads is what last month he promised us on the railways. If the nation gives the Government billions of pounds in extra taxes and waits patiently for 10 years or so, things might just get back to being only as bad in 2010 or 2013 as they were in 2000. Does he not recognise how utterly unacceptable that is? Is it not now clear that motorists and businesses will never get a fair deal from this Government?

Let me deal with the hon. Gentleman's final point, which was all too predictable. As I know from experience, it can sometimes be difficult for Opposition spokesmen to look ahead and consider the bigger picture, but the hon. Gentleman clearly failed to do that. I shall return to that point shortly.

I shall deal with some of the points that the hon. Gentleman raised. The road studies are all entirely consistent with what we said in the 10-year plan, namely, that existing roads would have to be widened and improved. It was all clearly set out. I caution the hon. Gentleman about suggesting that somehow we have been neglectful of road building. It is common ground in many parts of the House that successive Governments have been guilty over the years of stop-go funding for transport. I remind him in the nicest possible way that, in 1990, the then Conservative Government announced plans to build 500 routes. By 1997, only 150 were left on that list; the rest had to be cut because of the public expenditure difficulties that they had got themselves into. He should be careful about suggesting that somehow his Government were not guilty, as other Governments have been, of stop-go funding. With the £180 billion of public and private expenditure that is available, we are now ensuring that we are putting money steadily into our transport infrastructure.

In relation to the railways, spending is doubling and reliability will improve. One thing is certain: if spending were to be cut by 20 per cent., reliability would get worse and worse, and we would go back to the problems that we inherited.

Given everything that the hon. Gentleman said about bureaucracy, I am astonished that his one new policy announcement is that he wants a strategic authority for coaches. I should have thought that running buses and coaches was best left to existing organisations, rather than to a new quango set up to do it.

That brings me to the points that the hon. Gentleman made about road pricing. Let me plead guilty to the fact that road pricing is not something that the Government dreamt up. Indeed, I am sure that some Conservative Members will recall that, in 1993, an excellent document called "Paying for Better Motorways" was published by the Conservative Government under the signatures of the Secretaries of State for Transport, for Wales and for Scotland. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Collins) says that he rejected it, but perhaps he should take a good look at Hansard of 1993 and 1994. On 2 December 1993, the now Lord MacGregor set out what the then Government were going to do, including taking forward plans for pricing and legislation. Guess who asked the question? The treat of putting a planted question is usually given to a loyal, trusted Back Bencher—someone who is going places and who agrees with the Government's policy. I see that the question was asked by the current Leader of the Opposition.

To claim that the Tories know nothing about road pricing and would have nothing to do with it is slightly disingenuous. I understand that the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale once had a job as a researcher in Conservative party central office. He should go back and start doing his research.

We are about to introduce, with the complete support of the road haulage industry, lorry road user charging from 2006. It will be accompanied by a reduction in fuel and other duties so that the industry will not pay more overall. The advantage to the industry, which it recognises, is that the charge will be based on the distance that the lorries actually travel. That also gives us the potential to ensure that, if people travel at off-peak times when the roads are less crowded, they will pay less. All that I am saying at this stage is, for goodness sake, let us have the courage to see whether it is feasible to do this for cars.

The hon. Gentleman is in substantial difficulty. If he says no to that suggestion and will not think about it, he has two alternatives. The first is to try to build one's way out of the congestion problems with more and more concreting over of the country. That would be astronomically expensive, as well as environmentally disastrous. Even worse would be to consign motorists to unlimited congestion with no relief in sight. I suggest that we as a Government—perhaps with some degree of cross-party consensus—should at least ask ourselves whether road pricing could provide a better deal for motorists. We are looking a long time ahead but, if we do not have the courage to do that, future generations will rightly condemn us for not doing so.

Everyone who travels by road or public transport will welcome this balanced statement. However, will my right hon. Friend assure me that he does not accept the idea that putting more money into roads will automatically improve the situation for the average motorist or for business? He and I both know that that will simply put the gridlock off until a future date. The important thing is for him to assure the public that the rail and road improvements will march hand in hand. Will he tell me that the Strategic Rail Authority is taking serious notice of the plans that have been produced and will make sure that its improvements will come on line in time?

Will right hon. Friend also assure me that, before we have hard shoulder running on motorways, the emergency services will be consulted very carefully, because they will be unhappy about that?

I sat for many years in the House when all that happened was that public transport lost the support of Governments, so will my right hon. Friend accept that, at long last, it is a great relief to hear someone who is genuinely committed to improving transport throughout the United Kingdom?

I thank my hon. Friend. As I said, there are four strands to the strategy that we are adopting. The first must be to make better use of the road network, and I assure her that motoring organisations will be consulted on hard shoulder running. That scheme would be new to this country, although it is used in countries such as Holland. It would have to be accompanied by stringent safety conditions, but it could ease some of this country's bottlenecks.

The second strand is to ensure that we invest in public transport. My hon. Friend is right that consistent large investment in public transport—both road and rail—is necessary, and we are committed to that. The third element is that there must be investment in new capacity at specific pinch points. The problem is that that should have been done over decades. My announcements today and last December outline a programme that will steadily improve capacity but that must be accompanied by the fourth strand of the strategy: we must look ahead to the next 20 to 30 years and ask how we can better manage demand and give motorists better choice. There is a growing interest in examining that across the political spectrum—if not in the House—and we need to take it seriously.

May I thank the Secretary of State for giving me an advance copy of his statement? We welcome the measures that he announced to improve public transport, create expressways and deal with bottlenecks. We also welcome the fact that several proposals were rejected on environmental grounds.

Will the Secretary of State confirm the balance of spending on roads versus public transport schemes that arises from his statement? He will recall that the Government's transport White Paper in 1998 stated that the Government recognised the need to "reduce dependence on cars". It said:
"The priority will be maintaining existing roads rather than building new ones".
It also said:
"Simply building more and more roads is not the answer to traffic growth."
Does he think that his statement is consistent with that approach?

The Secretary of State will also be aware that since 1997, the cost of rail travel has increased by 8 per cent., the cost of bus travel has increased by 5 per cent. and the cost of motoring has gone down by 1 per cent. Will any measure in his statement close that gap?

We welcome road congestion charging. Will the Secretary of State clarify which body will lead the discussions on that? Will it be the Commission for Integrated Transport, which led with the first report on the issue entitled "Paying for road use", and will the commission be asked to continue in its role of advising the Government and monitoring their progress on transport? Will he confirm that the lorry technology that is being introduced has the potential to be used for cars? If a congestion charging scheme were introduced more widely or nationally, would road tax be abolished and might petrol taxes be reduced?

Finally, does the Secretary of State believe that the 10-year transport plan now contains so many flaws and omissions that it is time to conduct a full review with the aim of setting out a plan with a more forward-looking framework for 2015 and beyond?

The hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster), who usually speaks for the Liberals, explained that he unavoidably had to be away today, so I understand why the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) is speaking.

The balance of spending is broadly as set out in the 10-year plan. We are currently spending approximately twice as much on railways as we are on strategic roads, but my announcement, which will stretch over a longer period, will mean that spending will be broadly in line with what we anticipated. The study on road pricing that I am announcing will be conducted by the Department for Transport. It is an important matter and the study will not be farmed out.

The hon. Gentleman referred to congestion charging, but I think that it is commonly understood that that is a different technology—it is currently applied in London and there is a small scheme in Durham. He asked about lorry road user charging. The technology is similar, but there is a world of difference between a scheme for 430,000 lorries, many of which are already fitted with the necessary equipment—it is used for logistical purposes by most of the main operators in this country—and a scheme for 26 million cars. "Managing our roads", which I am publishing today, points out that rapid technological advances are being made. It would be foolish to assume that we could implement a scheme with no difficulties, or to take the other option of not even thinking about it, as is the view of several Conservative Members. The issue deserves a long hard look, but I would not underestimate the difficulties that must be overcome.

Order. Before I call the next hon. Member, let me tell the House that it is obvious that many Members are seeking to catch my eye. I ask for just one—and I mean one—supplementary question from each hon. Member. May I ask the Secretary of State to be reasonably brief when he replies?

I welcome my right hon. Friend's statement and especially his references to managing existing infrastructure and dealing with bottlenecks. Although he mentioned improvements to the Al(M) through Yorkshire, he made no reference to improvements to that road in Durham and Tyneside, and specifically to the notorious bottleneck on the Al western bypass. What are the Government's proposals to deal with those problems?

The details of all my announcements are in the Vote Office. Some 400 hon. Members should have received a letter setting out detailed proposals. There are difficulties with the western side of the A1. There was a suggestion that the stretch of road should be tolled, which would be the first time that a through road had been tolled to sort out a local problem. I am aware of the pressures on the road—I have driven along it often enough—and I have asked the Highways Agency and the local authority to consider what can be done to stop local traffic spilling out on to the improved Al. Otherwise, the problem might be sorted for five years before building up again. The study did not come up with an especially satisfactory solution for that stretch of road and I acknowledge that further work is required.

While there will be great rejoicing in the west midlands and South Staffordshire about the right hon. Gentleman's sensible decision to drop the western orbital scheme and the bypasses for Wolverhampton and Stourbridge, there will be concern about the proposal for an M6-M54 link because of environmental factors. Will he assure me that those factors will be taken most carefully into account and that local people and their Member of Parliament will be properly consulted?

Yes, of course I can give that assurance because it is important to consult at every stage. It is also important that, when we consider improvements such as widening roads or building new roads, we do what is best environmentally. I am sure, however, that the hon. Gentleman acknowledges that it is important for traffic to be able to link into the new M6 toll road, because otherwise it will not work.

People in Yorkshire will especially welcome the enhancements to the motorway infrastructure in their vicinity. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that such building will not impede relief work in areas such as mine that suffer from social and economic regeneration problems? Will he assure me that proposals to build a relief road from Hemsworth to the A1(M) will not be impeded by his announcement, because that road will bring much-needed jobs to my patch?

The intention is that my announcement today will not get in the way of anything that is currently under way, because that would be a great pity. Some of the improvements to the motorway network will involve widening and some will introduce better management of existing flows, and I am sure that they will all help. In that particular study area, the amount going to local transport plans to be spent on transport by local authorities has increased from £49 million in 1999 to £104 million, so a lot of money is also available for local schemes.

Given that the widening of the M25 that the Secretary of State announced sounds like it will turn London's green belt into an asphalt belt, what reassurance can he give my constituents in west Kent that their environment will be safeguarded? What extra noise protection and muffling measures will be considered to protect them against the additional capacity that he is proposing?

In relation to the M25, clearly it was a difficult decision. The hon. Gentleman will know that the study, which involved many people who are independent of the Government and consultation with local authorities, decided that it is necessary to expand the remaining sections from three lanes to four. However, he is right that where that is done, every possible step needs to be taken to reduce and mitigate the effects of that road. Because of the development that has taken place alongside the M25 over the past 20 years or so, it is increasingly used not just as a through road, but as a local road as well. I fear that if we do not do something about its capacity, there will be severe problems, which will adversely affect his constituents in Kent.

My right hon. Friend is to be commended on his statement and his acknowledgment for the case for investment in the Thames valley, as set out in the multi-modal study. However, are we to get the long-awaited upgrade of Reading railway station to clear up what is a public transport bottleneck for the whole of the Great Western region?

The Strategic Rail Authority and Reading council are considering proposals to do up Reading station for the benefit not just of the people of Reading, but of services to the west of England. My hon. Friend is aware that I know of the problem, which he has talked to me about. I have asked the SRA to work with the local authority to see what we can do to upgrade that station and to get additional capacity to it. A number of other things are also taking place on the Great Western line that will help people in Reading.

Listening to the list of road schemes, I was overcome by nostalgia.

The Secretary of State reminded the House that the Department published a discussion paper on motorway charging more than 10 years ago, which dealt with all the issues that appear in his discussion paper. He will know that more than 10 years ago, his predecessor said:
"it would be feasible technologically to install motorway charging here within about five years."—[Official Report, 2 December 1993; Vol. 233, c. 648.]
We commissioned trials and published a report on them in 1998, but since then there has been radio silence. He is now re-issuing a discussion paper that is more than 11 years old. Are those the bold decisions that we need on transport?

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for confirming that the then Conservative Government had at least an interest in the matter. His Front-Bench spokesmen appear to have overlooked that. However, there is a difference. The technology that that Government considered was different from today's technology. Lord MacGregor looked at the sort of roadside technology that is about to be used in Germany and Austria. We are considering the feasibility of using satellite tracking, which has been used for the lorry user charging scheme. Technology has moved on dramatically in the past 10 years.

In relation to motorways, there would be problems in applying a charging scheme only to motorways unless other measures are in place to stop the displacement of traffic on to accompanying trunk roads and quieter roads. The displacement factor needs to be considered and was not fully examined 10 years ago. However, I accept that the idea is not new. I think the first study on it was published when Sir Alec Douglas-Home was Prime Minister. We should have the collective courage to have a serious look at it, and that includes the Conservative Front-Bench spokesmen as well.

My right hon. Friend knows about the Al20 in my constituency because he travelled on it earlier this year when he visited the major port of Harwich International. He is aware that it is a single-carriageway road that services a major port. There is the possibility that the port will expand greatly, hopefully in the near future. Will he give my constituents a clue when we can expect the dualling of the Al20?

The Al20 is being widened between Stansted and Braintree. I have announced that that will continue through to Marks Tey. My hon. Friend will be able to get the details on other roads because they are now available. I did travel along that road: there is room for improvement. However, as I think I said to him when I was in Harwich for the launch of a ship, there are many pressures in the area. There are things we can do on the Al2 and the Al20. Although improvements are possible, I cannot hold out the hope of dualling that road in the immediate future. We need to consider it, though.

As the Member of Parliament with part of the busiest section of the M25 in my constituency—a section that more often looks like a car park than a motorway—why is it that the part-time Secretary of State has missed the obvious solution of including the Airtrack scheme in the proposals? That would link Heathrow to Staines in my constituency and achieve his objective of removing tens of thousands of local journeys off that busy part of the M25. A good rail link would also open up the airport to everyone to the south of the airport. The private sector is ready to build it, but the SRA appears disinterested in the funding that it would put in place. Has not the time come for the Secretary of State to tell the SRA to pull its finger out?

On the rail link, there is a scheme, but it is wrong to say that the funding is in place and nothing is happening. The SRA has many demands on it. Although we are doubling the amount of money available on the railways, the hon. Gentleman will be well aware of the existing pressures. I agree that it would be desirable to enable more people to travel by train or other public transport into Heathrow. I announced proposals that the SRA and the BAA are taking forward that will go some way to helping that situation by improving services on the Great Western line into Heathrow. I am aware of the other proposals and we will continue to consider them.

The proposals to widen the M1 and the M25, both of which border my constituency, will have a huge impact on the people of Watford, together with the current upgrading of the west coast main line, which runs through the town. My constituents, especially the pensioners who live on the Meriden estate, which backs on to the M1, will want to know what direct impact the proposals will have on them. What process and consultation will take place with the community and its Member of Parliament to ensure that we diminish, as much as possible, the inconvenience and disruption caused to them?

I agree that that is important. Earlier this year, we announced the replacement of some older road surfaces. That will reduce noise, which is a concern in areas such as Watford. It might help if I explain the process. I have said which recommendations I am accepting and rejecting. They will be worked up into detailed proposals. There will be extensive consultation at that stage and planning permission will need to be sought in many, if not most, cases. That will provide an ample opportunity for just about everyone to have their say. The planning process is one reason why it takes such a long time to build infrastructure in this country. Happily, my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister is working on proposals to speed that up—consistent, of course, with allowing people to have their fair say.

May I welcome the decision to consider further the proposal for the A27 at Beddingham, which as the Secretary of State knows is a sensitive location? He made a good decision on that. What time scale will apply to that exercise and what public consultation arrangements are in place? Will serious consideration be given to the establishment of a single-carriageway road from Beddingham to Southerham, which is the optimum solution, for reasons that I think he knows?

The hon. Gentleman is aware that we are considering a single-carriageway option. I have seen that junction and know the area. The problems are patently obvious. The level crossing has to go if we want more trains to run and for safety reasons. The area is of significant environmental importance. Perhaps something more sensitive might fit the bill than the original proposal.

Three years ago at the Government rail summit, Birmingham New Street station was listed as the No. 1 bottleneck in the national rail network. What are the implications of my right hon. Friend's statement for dealing with that problem? He also mentioned the biggest ever replacement of rolling stock. Will he use his influence to bring that investment forward to ensure continuity of work for manufacturing companies such as Alstom, so that we can keep the Washwood Heath factory in Birmingham open and retain skilled jobs in this country?

On the latter point, my hon. Friend will know that about 40 per cent. of rolling stock is being replaced over a five-year period. My recollection is that Alstom has won a contract to build about 900 vehicles. Two other companies also won contracts. The Government have played their part in bringing forward investment, and there is an awful lot of investment because replacing 40 per cent. of rolling stock takes a long time. However, I cannot hold out any hope of bringing that investment further forward. Most of the contracts have been let, and although there is some additional work, most of the stock is in the process of being constructed.

I am aware of the problems at New Street, and I have asked the SRA to see what we can do to improve that station. Clearly that needs to be looked at. As my hon. Friend knows, it was built in the 1960s, and if we had our time over again it would probably not be built in the same way.

The Secretary of State will realise that many of my constituents will view the statement with a jaundiced eye, given that they have had two years of disruption on the Al2, and that newly constructed road will now be used as rubble for the foundation of a three-lane highway. Given that that will involve the demolition of properties near the centre of Brentwood, can the right hon. Gentleman give us an indication about the timing that will be involved, about the purchase of properties and about the minimisation of disruption? What is the status of the various railway improvements that were promised in the study?

On the railway improvements, I set out in my detailed response to each study the stage that each one has reached and the next steps. The hon. Gentleman will be able to get that response from the Vote Office shortly, if he has not already got it.

On the proposals that affect the hon. Gentleman's constituents, I can say, as I did a few moments ago, that where widening or new construction is proposed, a planning and consultation process must be followed which will allow him and his constituents to ensure that their interests are brought to the attention of the planners. We will do whatever we can to try to minimise the effect of any new construction, but when roads are built or widened, disruption is unavoidable; the alternative is to do nothing and just wait until the whole thing grinds to a halt.

Following the decision two years ago not to proceed with the Hastings bypass, the south coast corridor multi-modal study has now recommended a link road through Hastings to give some relief to the A59. That road passes through St. Leonards, which has been declared an air quality management area. To avoid choking my constituents to death in the not-too-distant future, how soon will my right hon. Friend be able to proceed with that link road?

I have asked the local authority to develop proposals for that road, and I hope that it can do so in short order. I understand my hon. Friend's point about taking traffic away from Hastings and opening up part of the town for further development. I see no reason why the work cannot be done expeditiously, and we can then consider what has been proposed.

The Secretary of State mentioned consensus in his statement. As he is probably aware, there is a consensus throughout Norfolk that the A47 needs dualling from the A1 to Great Yarmouth. He will have received from me a letter, backed by all the local MPs and local government representatives of all parties, rejecting the multi-modal study and its conclusions. That study was called in by Norfolk county council because it was so concerned about its assumptions. However, that call-in had to be dropped because of the short time available—we were told that the A47 would have had to be left out of the proposals.

Is the Secretary of State prepared to meet a delegation from Norfolk so that we can have some influence in the future? I accept what he said about the future. Great Yarmouth is likely to get an outer harbour in the next five years, and the A47 will barely have been dualled in its entirety.

I am aware of the pressures. As the hon. Gentleman will know, the study did not recommend dualling of the A47, at least not in the short to medium term. However, he will no doubt be aware that a number of upgrades and improvements are being carried out—bypassing smaller villages and tackling some of the safety concerns—and that work will continue. Also in East Anglia, the A11 and A14 are being significantly improved, which will help links to the region.

In answer to the hon. Gentleman's request for a meeting, I have always made it clear that if hon. Members wish to meet a Minister in my Department, one of us will certainly be available. Although the study did not recommend the dualling of the A47, a number of things could be done that might improve it. There is also other significant investment going into East Anglia, as the hon. Gentleman will no doubt see when he looks at my full response to the study.

On rail investment, may I ask my right hon. Friend about the future of Crossrail? The aim of the project is not just to secure transport improvements for the long-suffering passengers of east London and the regeneration of the area, but to maintain London's position as an international business centre and tourist destination. May I also tell him that a new all-party group on Crossrail, which I chair, was formed last night, and that I hope he will agree to meet us?

That was clearly a timely establishment of the all-party group. My colleagues and I will be more than happy to meet my hon. Friend and her colleagues. I have made clear my position on Crossrail on a number of occasions. If one considers the pressures on London over 20 or 30 years, the need for a rail link between east and west is pretty clear. At the moment, we are waiting for the final business case from the SRA and Transport for London. Once we have that, we need to see what it has to say. I hope, before the House rises for the recess, to set out how we intend to proceed, and that may help my hon. Friend. I cannot say anything today, not least because I still do not have the final business case. Some of the people who are busy pressurising us about it might be better employed finishing it, and then I can make a decision.

The Secretary of State may, during his consultation, like to visit my constituency and look at the problems caused by motorists using small villages as rat runs. Will he tell my constituents how he will protect those communities from the extra traffic that will no doubt flood through them because of road building and charging; and what extra resources he will give the county council so that it can repair the roads after the extra wear and tear?

On many of the local roads that the hon. Lady refers to, the council is responsible for traffic management and repairs. Sometimes we in this House would do well to remember that although national Government can do some things, the reason we give substantial sums to local authorities, which the hon. Lady's authority and others are getting, is to enable them to do something about these matters. They should not seek to blame others for their own shortcomings.

On road pricing, the hon. Lady makes a fair point. One of the things that we need to consider, in relation to feasibility, is how to make sure that we do not end up with traffic simply being displaced from one road to another. As I said to the former Secretary of State for Transport, the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young), the proposals made by the Conservative Government 10 years ago would have resulted in some displacement, and I am suggesting that we consider using different technology, which might avoid some of the problems raised by the hon. Lady.

The main arterial route linking the west and east midlands is the M42/A42, which is used by thousands of my constituents every day and is seriously congested at peak times. I note the Secretary of State's intention to allow controlled use by cars of the hard shoulder, operating under stringent safety conditions. Can I tell him that the route has an unfortunate history of multi-vehicle accidents, including multiple fatalities, the most recent of which involved a vehicle running into the back of a minibus that was going rather slowly, and killing several people? Will my right hon. Friend tell the House how he intends to evaluate the safety factors referred to in his statement, because many people in North-West Leicestershire would proceed warily on that particular innovation?

I understand my hon. Friend's point. When I first came across the proposal, I had similar concerns, so I went to Holland, 'where this scheme is used day in, day out. Of course, stringent safety procedures are necessary; the traffic must be running at a lower speed; there must be constant monitoring, and there must be additional lay-bys so that when vehicles get into trouble something can be done. The proposal has been tried out in Holland for a number of years, and it seems to be working.

If we took a different view, and said that we would build another one, two or three lanes on the M42, that would take time, and it would be controversial because it would involve taking land that is not currently taken up by roads. Of course, it would also be expensive. We should see whether or not the pilot works. It will involve detailed consultation of motoring organisations and local authorities, but if it works, it may solve the problems of severe congestion to which most of our motorway network is subject during the rush hour because it is used by local traffic rather than through traffic. Our roads are designed differently from continental roads, and tend to have more junctions so that people can come on and off them, so we need to look at that.

I understand people's concerns about safety. There are exactly the same concerns in Holland, but people seem to have been able to make the scheme work there. The point that my hon. Friend made about the contraflow system, which of course operates on roads throughout the country the whole time, reminds us that drivers should approach those areas with extreme care because of the inevitable consequences of a collision.

It is all very well widening the M25, but does the Secretary of State accept that many of the arterial routes running off it, such as the A21 to Hastings, are still clogged with traffic and unsafe, not least because the Government cancelled the widening programme in 1997? Can he confirm that decisions on the A21 at Castle Hill and South Pembury have been postponed yet again, and will he undertake to publish a clear time scale for improvements and final decisions so that we can put an end to this endless review and procrastination?

May I tell the hon. Gentleman in the nicest possible way that before he stood up to speak it would have been prudent to check the position, as the A21 Tunbridge to Pembury link is going into the implementation programme today?

Anybody using the M25 will know that one of the biggest bottlenecks is the Dartford river crossing, which serves my constituency. What effect will widening the M25 have on the Dartford crossing, and does my right hon. Friend intend to carry out any impact assessments? What will the effect on the environment be, and does he have any plans to increase the capacity of the Dartford crossing, as it already causes significant tailbacks in my constituency at peak times of the day and night?

My hon. Friend is right that that is clearly something that needs to be looked at. There has to be proper traffic management where the M25 connects with the Dartford crossing, and that important point will be taken into account.

I broadly welcome what the Secretary of State said about my part of the west midlands. I am delighted that he is not going ahead with the western orbital route, and welcome the £1 billion expenditure on public transport for the west midlands area. I hope that it will be of particular benefit to my part of Worcestershire, and I shall endeavour to see that it is.

Notwithstanding the Secretary of State's answer to the question about safety asked by the hon. Member for North-West Leicestershire (David Taylor), I welcome the way in which he intends to proceed on the M42. Could he give me a few more details, and tell me when the hard shoulder will start to be used, and how long the experiment will last before a decision is taken on whether it should be extended?

On the M42, details are set out in the consultation document, which is available from the Vote Office. Further details are available on the Department's website and in other places. If the hon. Lady wants more information, I shall happily give it to her. The pilot study is due to start in April next year.

I welcome the £1 billion for the upgrade of the electricity supply on the rail network south of the Thames, particularly on the north Kent lines. I remind my right hon. Friend that in south-east London we do not have direct access to the London underground, so the rail network is crucial if we are to increase capacity and reduce the growth in car use in the road network in that part of London. Some people would leave their cars behind if they could park conveniently and have direct access to decent public transport links. As part of the upgrade of the M25, can we look at ways of encouraging people to leave their cars behind and use public transport within the area bounded by the M25?

There are a lot of schemes that do that, but I agree that a lot more could be done. When I travel up and down the country, I am struck by the fact that in some areas the railway and local authorities work closely together and have very good park and ride schemes. I was looking at some yesterday morning offered by the Chiltern railway, for example, which runs out of north-west London. There is no reason why such schemes cannot operate in south-east London as well. I agree that it is important that we improve the reliability and quality of service, particularly on the north Kent lines. The power supply improvements will help, but so too will the new rolling stock, almost half of which will go on to the London commuter services.

On west London, will the Secretary of State bear in mind the importance not only of enhancing rail links to Heathrow, on which he has made a significant announcement today, but of improving rail access to the north-west rail link at Watford junction? In that regard, could he get the Strategic Rail Authority and Transport for London together to initiate the Croxley link from Northwood in my constituency to Watford junction, thus extending the Metropolitan line to the west coast main line?

That is one of a number of schemes that are worth looking at. At the risk of being partisan, however, I must tell the hon. Gentleman that the Opposition's calls for more railways never cease to amaze me, as they oppose nearly every single penny of additional investment that we are putting in.

Given that the Secretary of State has recognised the powerful case for improvements to the A27, will he ensure that the redesign work that he talked about reflects the safety and economic cases for improvements as well as any environmental concerns? Will he also ensure that redesign is not used as another excuse for delay on that much needed project? He will recall that the multi-modal study concluded not only that improvements should go ahead but that that should be a priority.

I am aware of the economic need to improve public infrastructure. Indeed, the South East England Development Agency met my hon. Friend the Minister of State just a couple of days ago. Clearly, there is a balance to be struck—we must ensure that the environment along the south coast is preserved but we must also make sure that we deal with congestion and help to stimulate economic development. As the hon. Gentleman well knows, it is not always an easy balance to strike. Every one of his constituents probably wants both aims to be met, but it is not always possible.

Today's announcement will be greeted with dismay by my constituents who live alongside the M25. They are already concerned about the impact on the green belt, noise, pollution and the incidence of asthma. The plans come on top of proposals for a huge increase in runway capacity locally and excessive house-building targets. The cumulative effect of all that is likely to be unsustainable, so when will the Government stop treating the south-east as a giant development zone?

I remind the hon. Gentleman that at the start of our exchanges, the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Collins) set his face against even the possibility of looking at any measures to curtail demand on the roads. Unless the hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr. Ainsworth) is in favour of end-to-end congestion he must, by definition, be in favour of more road construction. He cannot have it both ways. I am proposing a measured, balanced approach which avoids concreting over the south of England—I do not think that anybody wants that: neither he nor anyone else. I suggest that he has a word with his hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale, because if he pursues the logic of his beliefs, there will be more and more road building, which many of us would find unacceptable.

While I welcome the Secretary of State's proposals to make the best use of our existing road space, one factor in Lancashire preventing that is weak bridges. Will he look again at the support given to county councils like Lancashire on that issue, and could he also say when we can expect a firm timetable for action on improvements to the M6 motorway north of Birmingham?

The right hon. Gentleman is probably aware that there have been huge increases in the amount of money going to local authorities, precisely so that they can deal with things for which they are responsible, including some of the bridges that he referred to. If he cares to let me or my hon. Friend the Minister of State know which roads he has in mind, I shall certainly look at the matter. However, he may find that the remedy is in the hands of the county council as opposed to the Government.

Lembit Öpik
(Montgomeryshire)