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Commons Chamber

Volume 472: debated on Monday 18 February 2008

House of Commons

Monday 18 February 2008

The House met at half-past Two o’clock

Prayers

[Mr. Speaker in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions

Work and Pensions

The Secretary of State was asked—

Poverty

The Government see a vital role for the voluntary sector in tackling poverty. In 2006, more than a quarter of new deal main contracts were awarded to voluntary sector organisations and more than a third of subcontractors are from the sector. Next week, the Department will publish its commissioning strategy. Throughout the consultation on the strategy, we have made it clear that the voluntary sector will play a growing role.

Volunteering provides a much-needed road into employment for many of the long-term unemployed. Brighton and Hove volunteer centre in my constituency has worked with more than 400 voluntary organisations this year, providing the unemployed with much-needed skills, necessary references and some confidence. What does my right hon. Friend hope to do to help provide that service?

I wish to start by paying tribute to my predecessor and the radical programme of welfare reform that he established. I am honoured to be building on the work that he achieved.

I congratulate the centre that my hon. Friend mentioned and reassure her that volunteering and the voluntary sector are at the heart of our programmes to get people back into work. Volunteering can teach people important skills that bring them closer to the labour market, and the voluntary sector plays a growing role in getting people who are on incapacity benefit and those in the new deal back into work.

I welcome the Secretary of State to his position and look forward to debating with him in the months ahead. I also welcome the Minister for Employment and Welfare Reform to his new Front-Bench job. He and I have had debates in the past and it is a pleasure to see him there.

Are the Government on track for achieving their target of halving child poverty by 2010?

The Government are committed to the goal of reducing child poverty. We continue to keep the strategy under review and we will make announcements at the appropriate time. However, it is surprising that the hon. Gentleman raises the issue when I do not believe that the Conservative party is committed to even an aspiration, let alone a pledge, to reduce child poverty. Perhaps he would like to answer that point.

I look forward to our changing jobs in the near future. From the lack of an answer to my question, I judge that the Government will not achieve their target of halving child poverty by 2010. Will the Secretary of State give the House a sense of when the Government hope to achieve that target?

As I said, the Government are committed to the target. The House will notice that the hon. Gentleman ducked the question on whether the Conservative party is committed to the goal. Under his predecessor, it was at least an aspiration, but it is not even that now. He is not prepared to say that he shares the aspiration of getting children out of poverty in this country, which is shameful.

Child Support Agency

2. What assessment he has made of the performance of the Child Support Agency following the introduction of the operational improvement plan. (186543)

The agency’s performance has improved significantly since the operational improvement plan was launched in April 2006.

In simple terms, thanks to the plan, so far, 80,000 more children are being supported by an extra £140 million of payments. The number of uncleared cases is falling steadily and processing times are speeding up.

Several of my constituents are on the old CSA system and fear that they are consequently worse off. What advice can my hon. Friend give my constituents? In what time frame can they expect to be moved off the old system?

We all have a sense of frustration about the timing, and about the difficulties that the existence of two schemes running side by side creates. However, as we have always said, transfer from one to the other could not be undertaken safely or have any chance of being completed until the IT system was up to scratch. That is where the big problem lies. My hon. Friend knows that, as part of the operational improvement programme, major investment is now being made in IT and that there will be a major re-engineering at Easter. From next year, as we move to the new commission arrangement, parents will be able to choose whether to have a private arrangement, stick with an existing scheme that works or move into the new system. After that, we can migrate everyone to one unified system.

The Under-Secretary may know that I held an Adjournment debate as long ago as 24 July last year on the CSA constituency case of Mrs. Sonia Poulton. I do not know how he can stand at the Dispatch Box and say that the agency’s performance is getting better. I have corresponded with him since the Adjournment debate, to which the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs. McGuire) replied. I tabled a pursuant question for answer on 17 January, and it has not been answered—

I said that the CSA was performing better; I did not say that it had reached a state of perfection. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge that the fact that 80,000 more children are being supported, that £140 million more is being collected in maintenance, that the number of uncleared cases is down by 45 per cent. since the plan started and that the agency is now clearing 50 per cent. of cases within six weeks is all improvement. I fully accept that there are still problems with some cases, and I will look into the constituency case that he raises. I will consult colleagues who have dealt with the correspondence and come back to him.

I welcome the improvements in the operational improvement plan that my hon. Friend outlined. He mentioned the computer upgrade, which is due at Easter and upon which a great deal depends. Will he meet me to discuss how staff such as those at the Plymouth office can be encouraged in the work that they are doing, despite the uncertainty that the future holds for them, so that he can continue to make such announcements at the Dispatch Box in future?

My hon. Friend will know that I have visited the Plymouth office, where I discussed with the staff both the agency’s current performance and the move to the new commission arrangement. I am pleased to report that the staff are behind the work that the Department is doing and fully support the move to the commission. In so far as they have any reservations about their status, which they raised when I visited, we have been able to resolve them by telling the staff that they will remain Crown employees. The staff fully support the changes that we are making, because they want to be part of a child maintenance arrangement that works.

The abolition of pension contribution limits means that children are suffering, as huge pension contributions are now allowable deductions from income assessed for child support. A mother from your hometown, Mr. Speaker, has called this “a loophole that can be exploited by parents lining their own pockets, rather than paying for their responsibilities.” Her MP, the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr. Murphy), has called this clearly unfair. Does the Minister agree, and will he ensure that the law is changed?

As I have already pointed out, despite such issues, the agency is collecting £140 million more in child support than it was before, on behalf of 80,000 more children. The hon. Gentleman knows that when the commission takes over later this year, there will be an opportunity to review other aspects of the agency’s arrangements—he and I have debated the issue in Committee, and he knows that to be the case. The important thing is to ensure that we build a platform of success within the existing agency for when the commission takes over. It will then have the opportunity to review all the arrangements covering the current maintenance systems.

I congratulate the Minister on the improvements he has announced today. Will he indicate—if not now, in a note in the Library—how many children have to wait six months and how many have to wait more than 12 months before the first of their often irregular maintenance payments arrives?

I can certainly supply my right hon. Friend with that information. He is right that there are unacceptable waits in some cases—after all, 38 per cent. of non-resident parents are failing to pay part or all of their maintenance assessment. That is clearly not acceptable, but we are dealing with people who will sometimes go to the most extraordinary lengths to avoid facing up to their clear responsibility, and the agency cannot always do all that it would like in going after them. However, in addition to the improvements to which I have referred, the agency is now taking a record level of enforcement action to go after the non-resident parents who will not pay, with record numbers of charging orders, suspended committal sentences, removals of driving licences and deduction from earnings orders, as well as doing more than ever before to collect arrears.

Poverty

We have made considerable progress in tackling poverty. Since 1998-99, the number of pensioners in relative poverty has fallen by more than 1 million, and the number of individuals in relative poverty living in households continuing a disabled person, after housing costs, has fallen by about 900,000. There are now 600,000 fewer children living in relative poverty, before housing costs, than there were in 1998-99.

The UK has a higher proportion of children living in workless households than any other EU country and, according to the Sutton Trust, social mobility in the UK is at the lowest level of any developed country. What connection does the Minister make between those two facts?

I make the connection that, for 18 years, there was a huge rise in child poverty—[Interruption.] That is a serious point. We cannot measure the life chances of a child who is 10 years old, which is the oldest that they could be if they had spent the whole of their life growing up under this Government. Those figures clearly measure life chances over the past two or three decades. We inherited a significant problem of child poverty; we have cut it by 600,000, and we have measures in place to cut it by another 300,000. The proportion of children in workless households has fallen by 400,000 under this Government. It was rising under the Tories, which damaged children’s life chances, but it is now falling under us. Over the next 20 years, as we are able to judge those children’s life chances, I believe that we will see a significant improvement.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that, when dealing with families living at the bottom end of the economic ladder and those with young children, there can be no scope for using the removal of housing as part of the process of getting people back into the world of work? Will he confirm that there are better ways of doing that, and that it would be unworkable and unacceptable to use housing as a weapon in that way?

I think that my hon. Friend is referring to the debate that the Minister for Housing has started about people’s responsibilities in respect of social housing. It is right that, when people get social housing, which is much sought after, we should talk about the responsibilities that go with that. That is exactly the debate that my right hon. Friend has started. One thing that could be done, for example, is to ensure that applicants for social housing get employment support alongside it. We could take other measures as well. That is a debate that my right hon. Friend the Minister and I will be happy to have with my hon. Friend in the coming weeks.

The Department’s own statistics on households on below-average incomes show that, since 2001, the bottom 10 per cent. of families have become worse off. They are going backwards, and getting poorer. How has that come about?

The figures on the proportion of people who are on below 40 per cent. of median earnings—I think that is what the hon. Gentleman was referring to—have been described by the Office for National Statistics as not reliable. For example, there are many people in that category who do not declare any income at all. There may well be a certain amount of fraud in those figures, and the sample size is too small anyhow. The figures that are internationally recognised, which relate to those on less than 60 per cent. of median earnings, have shown a fall of 600,000 since 1997, and we have measures in place for another 300,000 to be taken out of poverty. The clearest contrast, however, is the one between this Government, who are committed to reducing child poverty, and the Opposition, who will not even say that they have an aspiration to reduce it.

I see from the Annunciator that, following these questions, the Chancellor is to make a statement that will help us to deliver on our 1983 manifesto pledge on banking. Will the Secretary of State tell us whether it will be 25 years before we deliver on our 2005 manifesto commitment to a full programme of action to support disabled people in leading independent lives and to increase their inclusion in the economy and in society? The Independent Living Fund has just announced that it is raising from £200 to £320 the threshold sum that a disabled person must be receiving from local authorities in order to access ILF funding. Will not this worsen poverty and increase disabled people’s exclusion from society?

I believe that that was done in consultation with local authorities and will not affect existing claimants. We do not think that a significant number of people will be affected. My hon. Friend is right, however, to say that the Government have a radical goal of getting equality for disabled people by 2025, and we have a number of policies in place to achieve that. However, I would be happy to talk to him if he has any further suggestions on what course the Government should be pursuing.

The recent report by Leonard Cheshire Disability shows that disabled people are twice as likely to live in poverty as non-disabled people; I know that the Secretary of State will be familiar with that. Over the past 10 years, the employment rate of people with work-limiting disabilities has risen by just 3.7 per cent., according to the Government’s own figures. What specific policies do the Government have to enable them to do better in future, and why should anyone think that they are any more likely to be successful?

I look forward to meeting Leonard Cheshire Disability and I am happy to look into the suggestions it has made. As the hon. Gentleman says, there has been an improvement in the employment rate of disabled people, but we want to go further. Reforming incapacity benefit by introducing the employment and support allowance will, we believe, help to get about 1 million people off incapacity benefit and into work. At the end of the spectrum where people have really significant barriers to work, we should be clear that we are not saying that they cannot work—we want to support everyone who wants to work—but we are seeing what more control we can give people in that situation so that disabled people, like everybody else, can have the expectation of being able to get into work.

Pensions

4. If he will meet pensioner groups from East Anglia to discuss payment of old age pensions and related benefits. (186545)

I regularly meet national pensioners’ organisations, which seek to reflect the views of pensioners from East Anglia and other parts of the country. I hope to visit Norwich in the next few months and I intend to meet a pensioners’ group there.

I thank the hon. and learned Gentleman for that reply, but is he aware that the number of pensioners living in households earning less than 40 per cent. of the national average income is rising to a figure of nearly 500,000? Is he aware, more particularly, that pensioners in East Anglia have been hit especially hard by council tax increases—so much so that many pensioner households are now spending a very large percentage of their income on council tax bills? What plans does the Minister have to help those pensioners who just miss out on council tax rebate to get some respite?

I would hesitate, if I were a Conservative, to complain about pensions, given that under the Conservative Government the poorest pensioners were forced to exist on only £69 a week—barely enough, one would have thought, to pay for a bottle at the Bullingdon club. We have done an awful lot to help pensioners, and the number of pensioners living in relative poverty has fallen by more than 1 million since 1997. Just before Christmas, I announced some new proposals to help large numbers of pensioners who are not claiming pension credit or, indeed, the help that they need with council tax at the moment. When these proposals come into effect next year, we will mount a campaign to encourage pensioners to apply for help with council tax, which will automatically bring them some of the other benefits to assist them more widely. Pensioners’ organisations asked for that, and they have broadly welcomed it.

Will the Minister look again into the disadvantage suffered by people who reach retirement age, but are in receipt of a carer’s allowance and are caring for their loved ones? By what logic are they penalised or disadvantaged, particularly bearing in mind the fact that some devolved Assemblies in the UK are about to consider unilaterally remedying that wrong?

I looked into this problem recently, as some carers raised it with me. The benefits system does not allow for double payments. We are looking into ways of helping pensioners better to deal with some of the problems that they face. There are anomalies whereby someone living in an area receives help while the person living next door does not—and these are a matter of concern to us. I do not have an easy answer for my hon. Friend now, but I recognise the nature of the problem. It is an expensive problem to resolve, but we are still looking into ways of doing so.

Child Poverty

5. Whether his Department plans to simplify the welfare system with a view to reducing child poverty as recommended by the Scottish Affairs Committee in its report, “Child Poverty in Scotland”. (186546)

The reduction in poverty has been greater in Scotland than elsewhere, but there is undoubtedly more to do. I welcome the Scottish Affairs Committee report and we will respond to it fully in due course. We need a simpler benefits system to make it easier for people to make claims and understand their responsibilities.

The Minister will be aware that one of the ideas canvassed by the Scottish Affairs Committee, for which some enthusiasm was expressed by those giving evidence, was the equalisation of child benefit rates. What consideration is the Department giving to that idea, and when can we expect it to share its thinking with us?

All I can say at this stage is that we will respond in full to the proposals in the report, which I welcome, as I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s contribution to it. We are taking a number of steps to simplify the benefits system, including the introduction of the employment and support allowance, to which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State referred earlier. We want a system that makes it clearer to people what they are entitled to and how they can access it. As I say, we will respond to the detailed proposals in the report in due course.

As a member of the Committee, may I say that one of the most concerning aspects that we came across was that disabled children are four times as likely to be in poverty as non-disabled children? Does my right hon. Friend share my concern that of the £34 million allocated by the Government and specifically targeted on that disadvantaged group, not one penny has reached a health board, a local authority or a social work department? Will he join me in condemning the Scottish Government for their behaviour?

I am very happy to condemn the Scottish Government. My hon. Friend raises an important point. He knows that the children and young people’s review, conducted as part of the comprehensive spending review, has a major focus on the needs of disabled children and improving their life chances. I welcome his contribution.

Will the Minister answer the question posed by my hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) but ducked by the Secretary of State on what year the Government intend to reach their target of halving child poverty in Scotland and elsewhere in the United Kingdom?

I understand that the target has been reached in Scotland. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said, we remain committed to making further progress and to the abolition of child poverty entirely by 2020. We have made good progress. The number of children growing up in poverty has fallen by 600,000 since 1997, it having doubled under the policies of the Conservatives.

Worklessness

9. What assessment he has made of trends in the level of worklessness among under 25-year-olds since 1997. (186552)

I welcome the Minister to his new position. Given the high figure of people aged 16 to 24 who are out of work, and in particular given that the number of people in that age group who are economically inactive and not in full-time education has increased by 144,000 since 1997, does he still maintain the position that the current Prime Minister advocated in 2005, that youth unemployment has been virtually abolished?

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind welcome. Let me make two points. First, it is true that the population of young people has increased, but the percentage—the proportion—not in education, employment or training has fallen, as I said to him. Secondly, it is also the case—this is the important point—that many fewer young people today are unemployed for long periods, and the periods in which they are out of education, employment or training tend to be short.

To pick up on the point about my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, in May 1997, more than 85,000 18 to 24-year-olds had been claiming jobseeker’s allowance for more than 12 months. That fell last month and it is now fewer than 7,000. My right hon. Friend was absolutely right.

May I pick the Minister up on his point about the duration of employment of young people? Does he agree that it is scandalous that the proportion of people who have been through the Government’s new deal for young people and still have a job within one year of leaving is less than one half of those people who get a job in the first place? In other words, one out of two lose their job within the first year. Does he agree that that figure urgently needs to be improved?

I can tell the hon. Gentleman that 750,000 young people have gone into work through the new deal; much of that has been sustained work. That is the reason for the dramatic improvement in unemployment across the economy. He may well have seen the employment figures published last week, which show that more people in the UK are in work than ever before—almost 29.4 million—and that for the first time since June 1975 the number of people claiming unemployment benefits has fallen below 800,000. That is dramatic progress. The new deal for young people is an important part of the explanation for that. Of course we need to go further, and we will do, but employment opportunities today are unprecedented for young people and others. We are determined to make the most of them.

Will my right hon. Friend look at the progress made in the Cheshire Oaks retail area in my constituency, where he will see a partnership between the FE college, local authorities, the DWP and employers, who together have set up a retail training centre, which has had a profound impact on the life chances of people from some of the most disadvantaged parts of the constituency? Will he discuss that with his opposite numbers in the Department with responsibility for employment and see whether the model can be applied elsewhere?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Very good progress is being made as a result of the partnership arrangements that he describes. He gave a good constituency example of local employment partnerships. Last Thursday I was at the Nissan plant in Sunderland, signing a local employment partnership with the company. We have said that through Jobcentre Plus and its partners we will ensure that people have the skills and abilities to secure the jobs that are available, the other side of the deal being that employers will give disadvantaged unemployed people a fair crack at those jobs. I am confident that we will continue to make substantial progress in reducing the number of people who have been out of work for some time.

This September, the new 14-to-19 curriculum and the first of the new diplomas will begin. The number of apprenticeship places is expected to continue to rise, from the current 240,000 to the eventual target of 400,000 a year, and in due course we will make it compulsory for 16 and 17-year-olds to remain in education and training. How will Jobcentre Plus be involved in those developments? May I suggest that it can play an important role in continuing to engage employers in providing for the necessary expansion in skills training opportunities?

Jobcentre Plus will continue to play a central role in brokering partnerships and the other arrangements that my hon. Friend has described. It is true that we must address skills increasingly in the welfare system.

My hon. Friend was also right to draw attention to the growing number of apprenticeships, which almost disappeared altogether under the last Government. Now, 100,000 apprenticeships are being completed each year, and we have the longer-term objective outlined by my hon. Friend. In future, people taking up the flexible new deal will go to Jobcentre Plus, where they will be helped by advisers; specialist tailored help will then be given by others who are contracted through Jobcentre Plus, which will thus have a central role, while working with a wide array of partners.

Is it not a fact that 1.25 million people between the ages of 16 and 24 are neither in work nor in full-time education, more than when the Government came to office? Is it not also true that half a million young people up to the age of 35—I consider them still to be young—are not in employment at all? Have not the millions of pounds spent by the Government on various schemes missed their target?

Certainly not. Let me repeat what I told the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose). The proportion of young people not in education, employment or training is down, not up, and many fewer young people are unemployed for long periods. I also refer the hon. Lady to the employment figures published last week. They showed a rise in the employment rate and a fall in the unemployment rate, a fall in the claimant count in every English region—and in Wales and Scotland—a rise in the number of vacancies, and the fewest redundancies across the economy in the last quarter of last year since records began in 1995. Those are the results of the new stability achieved in the United Kingdom’s economy over the past 10 years, and of our active labour market policies.

I join others in welcoming the Minister to his new post. May I gently suggest that he avoid some of the woes that his predecessors have experienced in trying to suggest that the huge increase in the number of foreign workers is some sort of answer to the deep-seated problem of youth unemployment? Should he not face the fact that the new deal has too often acted as a revolving door taking young people from one period on benefits to another, which is reflected in the statistic that youth unemployment is 13 per cent. higher than it was when the Government took office? Is there not also a connection between that and the 400,000 increase in the number of young people living in poverty since 1997, which means that nearly a third of them are in that position? Is it not time that the Government faced up to those problems, and we saw some fresh thinking?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his welcome, but he needs to look at the figures a little more closely. It is a shame that Opposition Members were not worrying about this group of young people when the Government they supported were doubling the rate of child poverty between 1979 and 1997. He appears in the figures he has cited to have included full-time students, who are certainly in no sense part of a lost generation; they are being prepared for the opportunities ahead. Unemployment is down, the claimant count is down, and the number of young people claiming jobseeker’s allowance for more than 12 months has fallen from 85,000 in May 1997 to fewer than 7,000 today. We will continue to make sure that the substantial number of opportunities being created in the economy are available, including to people who have been out of work for a long time.

Sunbeds

The Government’s cancer reform strategy commits the Department of Health to review options for controlling health risks through regulation of the sunbed industry, in consultation with relevant stakeholders, including the HSE.

I thank my hon. Friend for her answer, but I ask her to make representations to the HSE on the leaflet IND(G)209. I am particularly concerned about the leaflet, as it has not been updated since 1995 and it needs to include important information for young people on sunbed use. Please will she ensure that?

I thank my hon. Friend for her question, which is important as malignant melanoma of the skin is among the five most common cancers in the 15 to 24 age range, and it is estimated that skin cancer rates will treble over the next 20 to 30 years. I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that the HSE is shortly to put out for consultation a revision of its guidance on sunbeds, and that the guidance advises that all tanning salons should be staffed and calls up World Health Organisation guidelines that people under 18 years of age should avoid sunbed use.

Affordable Credit

10. What steps he is taking to improve the access of benefit recipients to affordable credit; and if he will make a statement. (186553)

Access to affordable credit is vital to help tackle vulnerability and reduce poverty. Total Government investment in the growth fund has now reached £80 million, and that is helping to fund tens of thousands of affordable loans to people in receipt of benefit.

I thank my hon. Friend for that response, but many benefit recipients remain exposed to the activities of some loan companies that conduct their business along the lines of sub-prime lending. Does he agree that there is much to be gained by his Department co-operating with colleagues at the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform in the promotion of easy-to-access credit unions?

Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend, and he is absolutely right to point out that many people are victims of the doorstep loan sharks, who sometimes apply interest rates in excess of 1,000 per cent. without, of course, declaring that. We want to protect people from having recourse to such unaffordable credit, and the investment we are making through the growth fund is leading to a substantial expansion of the credit union movement. My hon. Friend is right that we are working with colleagues in the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform, which is funding hundreds of advisers who are working in local areas giving free, face-to-face advice to people on managing their debt.

Will my hon. Friend redouble his efforts and get in contact with credit unions, which up and down the country do tremendous work in ensuring that good credit is available to low-income families? My own union in Nuneaton is doing very well, but I have to say that if we put as much effort into this area as we have done into saving Northern Rock, we would help an awful lot more people at the poor end of the stick.

The credit union in Nuneaton is one of the credit unions that is receiving additional support through the growth fund investment that we are making. That investment is helping to increase substantially the scope of this country’s credit union movement. I know that in some areas where growth fund money is being invested the number of people joining local credit unions has doubled, and we hope to see much more of that as we go forward with the next two or three years of growth fund investment. We are finally putting resources behind expanding an important sector that is working in all of our communities and assisting people on low incomes.

Lone Mothers (Work Assistance)

There has been a welcome and large rise in lone-parent employment in the past 10 years. From October, lone parents with older children will be required to seek employment. From April, the in-work credit will be available nationally, and we will pilot a new credit to ensure that lone parents are at least £25 a week better off in work.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Recently, I visited the solve-it programme at Falkirk football club with my right hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Des Browne). It has an objective of getting 65 per cent. of single mothers who attend back into work, and it has recently been hitting that objective successfully. Will my right hon. Friend the Minister join me in commending the solve-it programme and all those involved in it? Does he agree that it is a great example of how a football club can truly serve its local community?

I am pleased to share my hon. Friend’s commendation of that initiative. We are also ensuring that lone parents are better off financially in work, because work is good for people’s health, their children and the self-esteem of their children. Everybody benefits when lone parents can get back into work, and I welcome the work in my hon. Friend’s area.

Everybody would wish to support genuine lone mothers back into work when that is appropriate. However, does the Minister not appreciate that the current tax and benefits system discriminates against married couples? Will he look into that at the earliest possible opportunity?

The hon. Lady is absolutely right that everybody is better off when parents are in work. We have made the changes that I have referred to for lone parents, but the point also applies to couples. It is in everybody’s interests for people to be in work. Where there is a question whether people are better off in work, Jobcentre Plus advisers can make a calculation to show the financial gains of work, and the better off in work credit will help further. I think that we can agree across the House that it is in everybody’s interests for parents to be able to work.

My understanding is that, under the new deal for lone parents, when lone parents attend jobcentres for interviews their child care and travel costs are met, whereas when they move to the new jobseeker’s allowance regime they have to meet those costs from their benefits, which could act as a bit of a disincentive and perhaps lead to sanctions. Will the Minister undertake to look into that, to ensure that lone parents who move from the new deal to the JSA regime are not disadvantaged in such a way?

I will certainly examine that point. We want to ensure that lone parents plan for a better future for themselves and their children, and that will require lone parents moving on to more appropriate benefits when their youngest child is 12 and over from October this year, as she knows, and 10 and over and seven and over later. I shall certainly examine her point and drop her a line in response.

Fuel Poverty

15. What plans his Department has to provide further assistance to people experiencing fuel poverty. (186560)

We expect to pay 12 million winter fuel payments this winter. In addition, the Pension Service is currently working with energy suppliers to target further help to 250,000 vulnerable pensioners in receipt of pension credit throughout England, Scotland, and Wales. We are also working closely with other Departments to develop a cross-governmental strategy to help further reduce fuel poverty.

That is a decision that the Chancellor will no doubt announce in due course. It is not for me.

I call Anne Moffat; I call Anne Snelgrove. Is Sally Keeble here? No—what I can do is to move on to Topical questions.

Topical Questions

Last November the Government announced a strategy for reducing the number of young people who are not in education, employment or training. As part of those proposals, from next April all young people who have not been in employment, education or training for at least 26 weeks by the time of their 18th birthday will be fast-tracked to the intensive support and sanctions regime of the new deal. If they fail to find work after six months, they will be referred to a specialist provider from the voluntary or private sector.

I can announce today that we will look to contract with providers who will work with young people in this category to do substantial amounts of work-related activity, underpinned by a minimum of four weeks’ full-time work-related activity relevant to the individual. That is an important new initiative to connect young people to the world of work and ensure that they learn basic skills such as teamwork and work-related disciplines, including timekeeping.

May I say that that was absolutely fascinating? However, two years on from the Buncefield, explosions the inquiry is still going on behind closed doors. Although I criticise its being done behind closed doors, I have no criticism of Lord Newton and his team. Could the Secretary of State assist the inquiry team in reaching a conclusion on whether a criminal prosecution should take place and whether compensation can be paid to my constituents who have suffered so much?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman is interested in my more general announcement, as many Conservative Members have raised the issue of people not in employment, education or training.

I know that the hon. Gentleman has been campaigning vigorously on the issue that he raises. I will ask the Health and Safety Executive for an update on progress and I would be happy to meet him to discuss his concerns. Clearly, everyone wants to bring the matter to a conclusion as rapidly as possible.

I congratulate the Secretary of State on his deserved promotion, but since he took office pronouncements on welfare reform have sent mixed messages: on the one hand, they have threatened to take people’s houses, and on the other, they have promoted the idea of financial incentives. When will he face up to the real barriers put up to benefit claimants by the huge complexity of the benefit system, which he has not so far addressed? Will he start by introducing plans for a single working-age benefit, which would do a lot to reduce barriers to work for many benefit claimants?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I am happy to consider the issue that he raises. It has been considered by many Secretaries of State and the question is always how one moves to such a system without creating a large number of losers, which would it make very difficult to introduce, and compensating all those losers, which would make it very expensive. A single working-age benefit system is desirable in theory, but whether it could be achieved cheaply in practice is a very different question.

This week I am meeting the office bearers of the Livingston and Blackburn credit union, who are a formidable group. At present, only individuals can join credit unions, but the officers want to know whether groups, such as mother-toddler groups, can be allowed to join. Has my right hon. Friend given any thought to that idea?

I am happy to raise that point with colleagues in the Treasury and the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform. As my hon. Friend knows, we are increasing significantly the support that we give to credit unions to address financial exclusion. There is also a significant role for the social fund, and we will bring forward proposals shortly.

T3. How much is being spent on benefits for migrant workers and their families, especially those from eastern Europe? Is he aware that there is growing concern about what many people believe to be an abuse? What is he going to do about it? (186534)

If the hon. Gentleman knows of a specific abuse, he should raise it and I would be happy to look at it. A key part of being in the European Union is that, just as when people from this country retire to Spain they have access to social services there, when people from other parts of the EU come here, they have access to the same support here. The European Union has been very good for our economy and those of other member states, and it will continue to be so. I believe that we disagree on that particular issue.

In reference to the Secretary of State’s earlier announcement, does he agree that the Connexions organisation is doing a superb job in trying to tackle the category of young people who are not in education, employment or training—the NEETs? Connexions Leicester Shire, which has an office next door but one to mine, is a wholly owned subsidiary of Leicestershire county council and Leicester city council. This year, Connexions Leicester Shire is targeting especially white British young people who live in disadvantaged areas of west Leicester and west Leicestershire. Is it right that it should target specific subsets of hard-to-reach young people? NEET numbers do show some resistance to decline over the years.

My hon. Friend is right to say that the Connexions service plays a vital role in the agenda. My announcement included the need for Jobcentre Plus and Connexions to work closely together. They will work closely with young people before those young people reach the age of 18. A key part of that policy will be to raise the education leaving age to 18. We are saying that we believe that once people reach 18, if they have been out of education, employment or training for six months, they should be fast-tracked into a system whereby, if they do not find a job within six months, they will be required to do a substantial amount of work-related activity for at least four weeks. We will also be looking for providers who want to put that at the heart of their strategy to get young people back into work.

T4. Will the Secretary of State meet me to discuss regeneration on the Alton estate in my constituency? Despite his deprived areas stats and all the money that is being targeted at communities to help tackle joblessness, the subject of opportunities is being missed. Only the cohort of people in such areas is considered, rather than the opportunities that are provided afterwards in those areas for people who live there already. Will he meet me to talk through the issues so that we can make the most of regeneration in Roehampton and not miss the important opportunities for those who live on the Alton estate? (186535)

I know that the hon. Lady has raised the issue before and is worried that the Roehampton area has not been included in the fund. The fund was allocated according to criteria of need, and that is the right way of doing it. I am happy to look at the evidence that she has raised but, clearly, basing the distribution on need is the fairest way of proceeding.

T5. Youth unemployment remains a problem. I do not want to bandy statistics about, but I would like an answer from the Minister. Macclesfield boasts one of the most advanced learning zones in the country: a virtually new secondary school; a virtually new college; and a sixth-form centre. What initiatives will the Government take to ensure that courses are available at the college, in particular, to attract young people who are economically inactive? I believe that the college and its joint facilities with the school and sixth-form centre provide a golden opportunity to encourage more young people to come into work and to stay in work. (186536)

Given all those achievements, I suggest that the hon. Gentleman’s constituents vote Labour at the next election to ensure that the investment continues.

T6. Over the past five years, some £22 million has been given to permanent expatriates who live elsewhere in the European Union in the form of the winter fuel payment. That figure includes more than £12 million to permanent expatriates in Spain, Malta and Cyprus. At a time when pensioners are struggling to pay rising winter fuel bills in this country, is it not ludicrous that a large amount of public money should leave the UK in the form of winter fuel payments to go to people who live in far warmer climates? (186537)

The people who are abroad and in receipt of winter fuel payments are, by and large, people who have worked and paid their taxes here, who have moved abroad and who were in receipt of winter fuel payments before they moved. It seems that the hon. Gentleman is advocating that we should now remove those payments from them. I have some concerns that people in warm climes are receiving payments, and we will look at that. However, it is their right to receive the payment because they received it when they were here. Is the hon. Gentleman proposing that thousands of people cease to receive payments to which they were previously entitled? We need to be clear about what he is proposing.

T7. Following the decision of the pensions regulator to apply a longevity factor of 89 years to private sector pension funds, what assumption is the Minister making about the longevity that is appropriate to public sector pensions? What difference will it make to public sector liabilities if the age of 89 years is chosen? (186538)

As the hon. Gentleman knows, there have been substantial changes in the way in which public sector pensions are dealt with. There have been extensions of the age at which people are entitled to receive things, and there have been changes to the way in which some of the funds have been structured. There are different ways in which public sector pension schemes are funded, and trying to apply something to the public sector that is directly related to issues to do with defined benefit systems in the private sector is misplaced. If the hon. Gentleman feels that the comparisons are direct, he needs to look at the issue with a great deal more care than he has until now.

T8. Will the Minister confirm that in 1997 67,000 people had been on incapacity benefit for five years or more and that today 1.5 million people have been on incapacity benefit for five years or more? Can he explain how the Government have managed to preside over such a culture of long-term welfare dependency? (186539)

I am afraid that the Conservatives have just got their figures wrong on this. As has been pointed out, they have failed to reflect the fact that there was a change in the name of one of the benefits, so they have added two completely different categories. What actually happened was that, when the Conservative party came to power, 700,000 people were in that situation, and we inherited a situation where there were 2.6 million such people—more than treble the number. The figure has started to fall under this Government, but we want to do more.

That is why we are introducing the employment support allowance from October this year. Instead of judging people on the basis of what they cannot do, which is the system we inherited from the hon. Gentleman’s Government, we will judge people on the basis of what they can do. There will be an earlier medical assessment at 13 weeks. There will be greater support for people who will not be expected to work, but greater requirements to look for work for everyone else in that category. This is a major reform of the system—one that was not undertaken by his Government. The reason the numbers increased was that they were happy to see them increase. We are not happy to see them increase—they are falling under us—and we have now set ourselves the goal that 1 million more people will come off incapacity benefit by 2015. That is the most radical reform of the system that this country has ever seen.

T10. I have a number of engineering companies, particularly in the aerospace industry, in my constituency. One of the problems that they have is in attracting young people to engineering; it is not seen as the kind of work that they want to do these days, but it is extremely important to those companies. Given that more and more people are staying on at universities, but that they are sometimes failing to find jobs, what can the Government do to ensure that young people who go to university take the appropriate courses that will enable them to find work and that will also satisfy the engineering companies in my constituency that struggle to find the right employees? (186541)

The hon. Gentleman raises a very important issue. Aerospace has been a very big success for the UK economy over the past few years, and a success that we want to continue. The Engineering Employers Federation said in its recent review of the state of manufacturing that there had been something of a renaissance in UK manufacturing more broadly. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: we need to make the most of those new opportunities in engineering to increase employment among people and to give them access to the opportunities that are becoming available. That is why the new diploma in engineering, to which reference was made earlier, is an important step and why it is also so important that we are increasing the number of apprenticeships in aerospace and elsewhere.

I visited Nissan in Sunderland on Friday. The company is just about to add a third shift for the production of the Qashqai vehicle. It is having to recruit 800 extra people that factory alone for that, and it thinks that another 400 jobs will be involved in the supply chain nearby. In addition to all that, the hon. Gentleman is quite right that we need to encourage young people—

Figures will be published later on this year, and the hon. Gentleman will see them when they are.

Will the Minister join me in congratulating the Hammersmith and Fulham volunteer centre on the excellent work that it has been doing recently on outreach to homeless, long-term workless households and in trying to find jobs for those people in places such as the West Kensington estate? However, the H and F volunteer centre is about to have its funding reduced due to the impending end of the North Fulham new deal for communities project and the loss of £50,000 a year in funding. Will the Minister agree to meet me and representatives of the volunteer centre to discuss how the Government might be able to help them to continue their excellent work?

I would be happy to meet the hon. Gentleman. As he knows, we are moving towards a flexible new deal, rather than having individual programmes, which is widely recognised as the right approach to deal with people’s individual needs. I believe that that approach is supported by his party.

The Work and Pensions Committee was clear that one of the Child Support Agency’s biggest problems was the IT system—the computers were described as completely unworkable. How much of the old CSA computer system will be carried over to the new system? If the amount will be substantial, how can Ministers be certain that the new system will be any better than that before?

We have always acknowledged that IT problems have bedevilled the agency for a long time. As I said earlier, major investment in IT is taking place as a result of the operational improvement plan. A major fix of the system is taking place over the Easter period to put in place a completely new method of operation. When the new commission takes over later this year, it will inherit the existing systems and contracts—much improved—but it will be for the commission to decide for the long term what IT system it wants to support the arrangements that it will introduce.

Northern Rock

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a statement on Northern Rock.

I hope that the House will understand that it was necessary for me to issue a statement yesterday, ahead of the markets opening, so that trading in Northern Rock shares could be suspended this morning. It was also essential to allow the management of Northern Rock time to tell its employees what was happening so that the bank could open as normal this morning.

As I said yesterday, the Government have decided to introduce legislation to take Northern Rock into a period of temporary public ownership. I took this decision after full consultation with the Bank of England and the Financial Services Authority. The draft Bill has been available in the Vote Office and the House of Lords since this morning to provide as much time as possible for right hon. and hon. Members, as well as the other place, to examine its provisions. If the House agrees, the Bill will begin its parliamentary passage tomorrow. I have also arranged for the principal Opposition spokesmen to be briefed by Treasury officials today.

It is important for savers and depositors to be reassured that their money remains safe and secure. Northern Rock will continue to operate as a bank on a commercial basis, and it is open for business as usual today. The Government guarantee arrangements that I announced last year remain in place and will continue to do so. Borrowers will continue to make their payments in the normal way.

I have appointed Ron Sandler as the executive chair. He is in Newcastle today and has had meetings with the company and its employees. The new board and the bank will operate at arm’s length from the Government with commercial autonomy for their decisions. I will publish shortly the framework agreement that will outline how the relationship between the Government and the Northern Rock board will work.

As I said yesterday, the board’s proposals will also cover the Northern Rock Foundation, which is very important to the north-east. The board will commit to guaranteeing a minimum income of £15 million per year in 2008, 2009 and 2010. That will be paid directly by Northern Rock, as now, and would be a condition of any sale, if it were sold in that time. The new board will be asked to identify a long-term future for the foundation.

I want to set out the reasons for the decisions that I made and to outline what the new legislation will do. Before that, let me remind the House that last September there was almost universal agreement that the Government were right to intervene to save this bank to stop its problems spreading to the wider banking system. There was also agreement that, ultimately, the long-term future of the bank must lie in the private sector. Even those who advocated nationalisation in the autumn did so on the basis that it could be only a temporary step—a stepping stone—to return the bank to the private sector when market conditions made that possible.

Throughout last autumn, and from the start of this year, the Government wanted to test all the options and to give the shareholders and the management time to find a solution that was acceptable and that met the three principles that I set out last year: to support financial stability; to protect depositors’ money; and to protect the interests of the taxpayer. I said throughout that all options, including a period of temporary public ownership, remained on the table.

As the House will know, the Government had two private sector bids to consider. Each was tested against the option of a temporary period of public ownership to see which met our objectives and principles, including best value for the taxpayer. Both proposals involved a degree of risk for taxpayers and a very significant implicit subsidy from the Treasury, involving a payment below market rate to the Government for continuation of our guarantee arrangements and for the financing that we would put in place.

Each proposal had its pros and cons. The Virgin proposal, for instance, would have brought in a new brand and management. However, the taxpayer would have received a share of the private sector return only if the business’s value to its investors reached at least £2.7 billion. The board’s proposal would have involved a similar level of subsidy, but it had other disadvantages compared with Virgin’s. It would have brought in less new capital, and the business would have depended longer on Government guarantees for new retail deposits. A subsidy on the scale required would not have provided best value for the taxpayer. The private sector rather than the taxpayer would have secured the vast majority of the value created, and that would have been a poor reflection of the balance of risk borne by the two sides. By contrast, under public ownership, the taxpayer will secure the entire benefit and proceeds from the sale of the business in return for bearing the risks during this period of market uncertainty. That is why we made the decision that we did. We made the decision to protect taxpayers having weighed up the various competing considerations. In deciding which was the best option for the taxpayer, it was clear that a temporary period of public ownership was the better option.

I will go through the contents of the Bill in more detail on Second Reading tomorrow. We have deliberately drafted it to ensure that a bank can be acquired only in certain tightly defined circumstances, and the power to do so will last for only 12 months. I have already announced a consultation that will lead to permanent legislation to deal with such situations in future. The Bill potentially applies to a range of financial institutions, but I want to make it clear that the Government have no intention at present to use it to bring any institution other than Northern Rock into temporary public ownership.

The Bill also provides for appropriate compensation to shareholders. As I explained on 21 January, those provisions are on the basis that all financial assistance provided by the Bank or the Treasury, including guarantee arrangements for depositors, had been withdrawn and that no further financial assistance, apart from ordinary market assistance from the Bank, would be provided to the deposit taker. I believe that that is fair both to shareholders and to the taxpayer. The Bill makes provision for transfer of the bank or parts of it to the private sector.

I remind the House that following the problems that started in the United States last summer, Northern Rock was unable to raise the billions of pounds that it needed to stay in business. We were right to save the bank and to do everything we possibly could to find a private sector buyer on terms acceptable to the taxpayer. Because of current market conditions, we are now right to take over the bank on a temporary basis, because that is what is in the best interest of the taxpayer. There were choices to be made. We could have let the bank go under, but the risks to the wider financial system, for savers and for the general public were not acceptable. Having made the decision to save the bank, maintain financial stability and protect savers, we are now taking this decision to protect the taxpayer. I commend this statement to the House.

Never before in the long history of his office has a Chancellor had to come to Parliament to announce the nationalisation of a high street bank. For months, the Prime Minister dithered and delayed, doing everything he could to avoid the very course of action that he now recommends to Parliament. We know why. As the Chancellor acknowledged at the Dispatch Box, nationalisation means the

“slow lingering death”

of Northern Rock

“and Britain’s reputation as a major financial services centre”,

with him

“cast in the role of undertaker”.—[Official Report, 19 November 2007; Vol. 467, c. 968.]

I have three sets of questions to ask that self-confessed undertaker. First, will he reaffirm that nationalisation means that the taxpayer is

“bearing all of the risk”?—[Official Report, 21 January 2008; Vol. 470, c. 1210.]

That was the phrase that he himself used last month in the House when he argued against nationalisation. Nationalisation means that the taxpayer’s risk has doubled to £110 billion, or £3,500 for every family in Britain. Every family in Britain will now own the high street bank that wrote more mortgages at the top of the housing market than any other. Every time a home owner fails to meet a mortgage payment, every family in the country will bear the cost. That is what this nationalisation means.

Can the Chancellor tell us about the state of the £100 billion mortgage book that he wants the taxpayer to own? How many bad loans are there? The credit rating agencies now say that the losses are rising at Northern Rock. Is that true? Before we debate the Bill tomorrow, we are entitled to a full statement of the financial position of the company that we are being asked to buy. We are entitled to see the advice from Goldman Sachs that we have all paid for.

Secondly, will the Chancellor agree that it is totally unacceptable for Northern Rock to continue with business as usual? This is now a Government bank; it can borrow and lend more cheaply than any of its high street competitors. Indeed, today it is still offering some of the best savings deals out there—it is still offering the 125 per cent. mortgages that it wrote last year. That is politically and economically unacceptable. Nationalisation can never mean business as usual. The Chancellor said in his statement that the management would be at “arm’s length”. Why is there nothing in the Bill to prevent political interference?

Thirdly, will the Chancellor confirm that he is actually introducing unprecedented, sweeping, draconian powers that will let him nationalise any other bank or deposit-taking institution in Britain by ministerial fiat? [Interruption.] The Lord Chancellor should pay attention; he keeps talking about strengthening the powers of Parliament, but he is about to give the Chancellor of the Exchequer the power to nationalise any bank in Britain without coming to Parliament—not even Michael Foot dreamed of that. It will create further uncertainty in financial markets and do further damage to Britain’s reputation. If the Chancellor is giving himself those sweeping powers only to get round parliamentary procedures for hybrid Bills, he should give himself them for a week or a month, not for a whole year.

The Chancellor had opportunities to avoid the disaster of nationalisation last autumn, and he missed them. He has the opportunity now to avoid the disaster of nationalisation by opting instead for a reconstruction led by the Bank of England, and he will not take it. It would mean £55 billion less exposure for the taxpayer, and none of this farce of business as usual; it would be like the approach that the Chancellor himself recommends for future bank rescues. But instead, the Prime Minister and his Chancellor have dithered their way to disaster. Now what they call the “temporary nationalisation” could, in the words of Ron Sandler, “last years”.

In uncertain economic times, the British people have a right to expect decisive and strong leadership from their Government. Instead, this Chancellor has given us weakness and indecision, with humiliating reversals over capital gains tax, then non-domiciles and now Northern Rock. He has taken Britain back to the 1970s and the failed policies of Labour’s past. We can safely say that he will never recover his reputation for competence. He is now politically a dead man walking and if the Prime Minister could make a decision, he would move him. What matters to the rest of us is that the British economy and its reputation abroad recovers from the Chancellor’s disastrous time at the Treasury. Nationalising a high street bank is not the way to begin, and we will oppose it tomorrow.

The shadow Chancellor is increasingly someone who conceals cynical opportunism with a pretty thin veneer of abuse. One would have thought that he might rise to the occasion rather than playing petty politics with the serious matter of the stability of the banking system in this country. He has never had a consistent policy on what to do with Northern Rock—every day brings a new policy and a new stance. Last September, he and the Leader of the Opposition said that they wholeheartedly supported what we had done and that they recognised we were right to take the action that we did to stop the problem spreading into the wider financial system. But when things got difficult for them, they ran away from that support. They were in favour of administration, despite the fact that that could have provoked a fire sale with a huge loss to the taxpayer. They said they were against nationalisation, yet two days later the Leader of the Opposition said yes, he would have to consider all the options, including nationalisation. Their policy today appears to be nationalisation followed by some ill-designed plan to sort out the future of the bank. They have absolutely no coherent view about what to do with this problem. They also fail to recognise the problems that have caused the bank’s underlying difficulties in the first place—the problems that arose in the American housing market that have spread to the financial markets right across the world, making it necessary for us to take the action that we have.

The hon. Gentleman criticises the decision that I have taken today. He is entitled to take that view, but he might want to have a word with the shadow Chief Secretary, who said on television this morning:

“The Chancellor is quite right; if the private sector isn’t willing to pay an appropriate value for a business then it would be wrong to hand it over at an under value.”

I am deeply grateful to him for his support.

It is clear that the Conservatives have absolutely no idea how to deal with this problem—all they can do is to come up with proposition after proposition showing their cynical opportunism. Rather than dealing with a serious problem, they have absolutely no answers whatsoever.

I welcome the Chancellor’s statement on the basis that it protects the interests of taxpayers, which the Treasury Select Committee identified in its report. Given the arm’s length management that will operate under Ron Sandler, no doubt the Committee will want to receive regular updates from him and his colleagues to ensure for ourselves that accountability is the key here. Given the unique position of Northern Rock as a nationalised institution, does the Chancellor agree that accountability is extremely important in to ensure that it does not distort the financial markets at any time?

First, I thank my right hon. Friend and his colleagues on the Treasury Select Committee for the very thorough investigation and piece of work that they did in relation to Northern Rock.

It is important that the management team led by Ron Sandler has the opportunity to make its decisions, first, to come up with a business plan, which we need to submit to Europe as part of the state aid approvals process, and then to be allowed to get on with the job. Yet again, I profoundly disagree with what the shadow Chancellor said. He seems to imply that it would be better for the bank to go bust rather than to allow it to trade and get through the difficulties that it faces. We will be in some difficulty if we go down the road of holding the management team to account for every single thing that they do. I am sure that the Select Committee will want to know about the business plan and want to discuss these things, but it is important that the management team gets to operate at arm’s length from the Government and gets on with running the company, because that is the best way of ensuring that it can be restructured and refocused and can then be returned to the private sector when it is appropriate and right to do so.

After five months, the Government are now in the best position to ensure the repayment of the taxpayer’s money. They were right to decide that temporary nationalisation is a better option than a bad private sale whereby the taxpayer would have underwritten the risks and the private buyer would have acquired the profits. I am tempted to say, “I could have told you so”, but this is too important for that. I will content myself simply with making this comment: when the Chancellor receives a large multi-million-pound invoice from Goldman Sachs for its financial advice, could he perhaps return it politely with a little note saying that he received rather higher quality advice free of charge from me and the Liberal Democrats?

The Conservative spokesman talked about the dark satanic socialism of the 1970s, but will the Chancellor confirm that the last time a private bank was nationalised in Britain was in 1994, when the last Conservative Government acquired National Mortgage bank, paying its owners a total of £1? And was not the last major bank nationalisation in the western world undertaken by that loony left-wing Trotskyite President Ronald Reagan, when he acquired Continental Illinois bank, which was subsequently returned at a profit to the American taxpayer by the Clinton Administration?

Clearly, choices have to be made. The Government have made theirs and we have made ours. Until today, the Conservatives had no alternative. I think that they are now suggesting public administration under a publicly owned Bank of England. What is that but nationalisation in all but name? The hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) is so determined to keep one foot on either side of the fence dividing the public and private sector that he is in imminent danger of being castrated by the serrated edge.

However, there are questions for the Chancellor. What sort of undertakings did he give to Sir Richard Branson and others to pay their fees for private bids? When will he commission a fully independent audit through the Bank of England to establish the quality of the assets—the loan book for which this enormous sum of public money has been advanced? When will there be democratic scrutiny of the new business model, which could involve contraction or expansion of the bank? I hope that the changes will put an end to the extreme loans to which the hon. Member for Tatton rightly referred, which lent more than the value of property.

In general, the Government have to face some difficult decisions. The bank will have to contract and there will be job losses. We all recognise that, but at least the bank and the north-east have some long-term hope. For that reason, we shall support the measures in Parliament, while giving constructive criticism. That is the right thing to do.

I agree with a lot of what the hon. Gentleman says. He is quite right to remind the House that there have been many occasions when Governments have thought it right to intervene to take action to preserve stability or, in some cases, to preserve vital industries. He will remember what happened in the 1970s because I seem to recall that he was in the Labour party then. He is also absolutely right in his description of the Conservatives’ policy. Their policy is nationalisation. It involves nationalisation, but the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) has the gall to say that he is going to oppose the Bill that will bring that about. The only way he could deliver his policy—in as much as it is understandable and that it will last for the next day or so—would be to nationalise, so it seems extremely odd that he intends to oppose the legislation tomorrow.

The FSA is responsible for regulating Northern Rock and it judges the mortgage book that Northern Rock holds to be of good quality. On the business model, as I said earlier, Ron Sandler and his team will introduce a model after they have had a chance to consider the options available to them. That will have to be endorsed by the Government, because it has to be cleared by the Commission under the normal state aid rules. Once we have taken that action, assuming that Parliament agrees to it in the next day or so, I believe that there is a good chance that we can help Northern Rock to get through this period, and that seems infinitely better than the Tory options of either bankrupting it or finding some other pretty ill-defined destination for it, which make no sense to me whatsoever.

Listening to media reports this morning, it seemed as though the Conservative party was dead set on destroying the great northern institution of Northern Rock, and was prepared to see its assassination in its bitter opposition to nationalisation. However, it now seems that we are hearing different things for different audiences. I can tell my right hon. Friend that people in the north-east, and particularly the bank’s staff, will welcome the announcement of the establishment of a framework agreement. He will understand the considerable anxiety among the population at large in the north-east, particularly those staff. May I press him to undertake early publication of a business plan so that stability is brought to the business at the earliest possible date?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who rightly sets out his concern for the future of Northern Rock and for the people who work there. I hope that the business plan can be produced as quickly as possible, but I want to give the management team time to work out a plan that actually stands up. It is better to take time to get these things right, rather than rush into something, which is what the Tories have been suggesting over the past few weeks. It is time to get a properly worked up business plan. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments about the Northern Rock Foundation, which supports many organisations in the north-east. That is an important step.

The Chancellor will recall that I supported his guaranteeing deposits last autumn, although he did it three or four days too late. However, it seemed to me and most other people that the only case for nationalisation was through an orderly run-down of the bank, with the sale of the loan book, as and when the markets permitted, to get decent value for the taxpayer. If it is genuinely business as usual and if the bank is to remain open and take deposits, why should not every sane saver in this country rush to take their savings out of other banks and saving institutions to put them into the only institution that offers competitive rates of interest, fully backed up by the Bank of England? What would that do for the reputation of the financial services industry in this country? How much profit does the Chancellor expect to make eventually out of the extraordinary venture?

I knew who the right hon. and learned Gentleman was, even if he was taken aback. He appears to support precisely what I propose: that we give the bank time to reorganise and refocus. However, I do not agree with his proposition that the bank should simply be run down. The management team needs the opportunity to restructure and refocus the bank because the market conditions have changed. On its operation in the marketplace, the state aid rules exist to ensure that it cannot abuse its position, but it is in the general interest of stability and of taxpayers to have an opportunity to work things through. If we followed the course of action that the Conservative party advocates, the taxpayer would lose substantial amounts.

Is my right hon. Friend’s intention with nationalisation to grow on a successful business in the public sector or is it simply the beginning of a slow, lingering death for the business? The House is not even at the beginning of the affair. Does the statement mark a new beginning or the beginning of the end in many homes in my city of Newcastle?

Let me put it this way: we had a choice of accepting one of the two bids on the table from the Virgin consortium and from the board. However, when we examined those two bids and judged them against the option of public ownership for a temporary period, they did not stack up in value for money terms. It would have been wrong of me to make a proposal that involved significant subsidy and that, as the figures clearly showed, was not the best option. We must at all times look after three things: the financial stability of the system, security for depositors and savers, and value for taxpayers. That is why I reached the decision at the weekend that I have announced today.

I hope that Ron Sandler and the new management team can examine the bank, ascertain what needs to be done, especially given the market conditions that it now faces, and see what we can do to refocus and restructure the business. I cannot give my hon. Friend the answer today because, as I said, the management needs time to do that. However, the alternative of accepting a bid that was not good value would have been wrong, and the suggestion from the Conservative party simply to bankrupt the bank would have been a profound mistake.

I encourage the Chancellor to resist the calls from Conservative Members to run off the bank completely, and instead to keep it going as a business. I welcome his comments about the Northern Rock Foundation continuing to secure income. After all, if the north-east had been offered even a share of £50 billion in Government loans and guarantees, we could have used it to benefit the region. At least the foundation can give us some benefit.

The right hon. Gentleman is right: the Conservatives want the bank not to take any new business, which would involve it being run off. At least, that is one policy that they are advocating; it would not surprise me if they had another one by tomorrow. That sort of inconsistency would just compound the difficulties that Northern Rock faces. In relation to the action that we have taken, I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman’s support.

The Chancellor is perfectly right to refer to the sub-prime mortgage crisis in the United States and the ongoing difficulties in the financial markets. Against that background over the past five months, has he not ensured financial stability, prevented contagion, defended the interests not only of the taxpayer but of Northern Rock’s depositors and savers, and provided guarantees that have not been called upon? Given that fact, will he ensure that temporary ownership is also prudent ownership and does not fall within the time scales of our 24-hour news media?

As I have told the House, if we had not intervened to save the bank last September and if it had gone down, there would have been a substantial risk of the problems that it had faced and the difficulties caused by its collapse affecting the rest of the banking system. We therefore intervened and we were right to do so, and as I have said, at that time we were supported in all parts of the House. I fully accept that the Conservative party moved from that position subsequently. In relation to the savers and depositors, we were right, too, to issue those guarantees, because we wanted to ensure that they would not lose their money. We have been successful in that, too. The third element is to ensure that we do the right thing by the taxpayers of this country. That is why I have made the proposals that I have made today—precisely to ensure that the taxpayer’s interests are protected.

It is a long time since we have seen so many smiling faces below the Gangway in response to an announcement by the Chancellor—he has certainly pleased one big audience down there.

May I press the Chancellor on the issue of competitiveness? As he said, the bank is going to trade through. He talked about it trading responsibly and not abusing its position under state control, but how will he guarantee that it will be unable to abuse that position or to continue as it has, which is what got it into so many problems in the first place?

At the risk of upsetting the right hon. Gentleman, I say to him that I am afraid that the best guarantee is the European Union state aid rules.

It is very important that we take notice of the work force in the business plan and ensure that their jobs in Northern Rock are assured. I can tell my right hon. Friend that they are worried about what is going to happen to their jobs. As far as the bank is concerned, tomorrow morning I will be opening an account in the people’s bank.

I am surprised that my hon. Friend does not have one already, but I am sure that the bank will be pleased to hear that.

It is not just the people’s bank that people are concerned about; it is the people’s debt. We have heard the figure of £100 billion, but what is the Chancellor’s estimate of the total liability to the taxpayer, including the guarantees, the loans and any shareholder compensation? Will that amount now also include subordinated debt, which also runs to some billions? He said that the FSA regulates Northern Rock, but is he content with that? The FSA is required to produce a risk analysis of building societies every six months, but where was it? Did it tell the Treasury of its concerns about the massive over-reliance on the wholesale market? If it did not tell the Treasury, heads should roll at the FSA; if it did, perhaps Ministers should be considering their positions.

As has been well documented, the FSA accepts that it should have taken action last year when it became aware that there were problems in relation to the bank. However, I remind the House that, as the Treasury Committee found, the primary responsibility for running Northern Rock lay with the directors. They got themselves into a position from which they could carry on trading only by securing access to billions of pounds of funds from the financial markets. When that became difficult and then impossible in September, they had no alternative but to go to the Bank of England. The primary responsibility for Northern Rock, as for any other bank, must therefore lie with its directors.

On the hon. Gentleman’s earlier points, Northern Rock has a good quality mortgage book, the funds that have been advanced by the Bank of England are secured against Northern Rock’s assets, and as to the guarantees that I have given to depositors, and other guarantees, none of them has been called, so there has been no cost to the taxpayer.

Maintaining banking stability is critical to all of us in the House. Does my right hon. Friend therefore accept that it would be valuable to have an all-party solution to the problems that Northern Rock is facing? With that in mind, will he tell us whether the Treasury has received and assessed any ideas from the Conservative Opposition, or has it in fact received no ideas from them?

I have to tell the House that, if we were going to assess the Conservative party’s policies on this matter, we would have to increase hugely the number of people whom we employ, simply because its policies seem to change every day.

Will the Chancellor confirm that clause 11 of his Bill will enable the Bank of England to offer financial assistance to any building society that might be in trouble? Is not the real signal from the nationalisation that he has announced today that from now on, any bank or building society that gets into trouble through its own incompetence can expect to be bailed out by the taxpayer?

No, that is not the position. There is provision in the Bill to allow for assistance to building societies, because that power does not exist at the moment; it seems to me prudent to include it in the provisions. The tests that have to be passed before a bank can be nationalised are quite high. There will have to be a substantial, serious threat to financial stability, or funding must have been given that has been underwritten by the Treasury, as with Northern Rock. The test that will be applied to any financial institution that is getting into difficulty is simply this: does it present a systemic risk to the system as a whole? If it does, there will be a case for Bank of England intervention; if it does not, that will not be the case. The tests that we shall apply have not changed, and they will not change as a result of the legislation.

Has my right hon. Friend noticed that The Daily Telegraph says today that he is doing the right thing in bringing Northern Rock into temporary public ownership, and that his action is likely to have considerable advantages for the taxpayer? Does not the view of that Tory newspaper contrast with the vacuous blather given from the Conservative Front Bench? That is the party that rushed the nationalisation of Rolls-Royce through the House.

I remember the nationalisation of Rolls- Royce; I was not here at the time, although I am pretty sure that my right hon. Friend was. I did indeed notice the remarks in The Daily Telegraph, although I must concede that it took me some time to get to the bit that said I was doing the right thing—it was a pleasure to read it. The problem for the Tories is that they do not actually have any coherent idea of what to do in this situation. Their position changes from day to day, and from week to week. Therefore, all that we see is cynical opportunism, because they have nothing else to offer.

A recent study shows that Northern Rock is already repossessing more homes than any other major bank. Does the Chancellor still stand by the assurance that he gave me and the House that Northern Rock has a high-quality loan book? If he does, and if he believes that it has a lower proportion of bad debts but is repossessing more of them, will he, as its owner, tell its managers to pursue a less aggressive repossession policy, or does he intend to wash his hands of what the managers do and be the Pontius Pilate of the repossession business?

This is an example of the Tories trying to have it both ways at once. Half of them say that we should not be interfering in the running of the bank, while the other half say that we should interest ourselves in every single transaction. I have made it very clear that the operational decisions and the day-to-day management of Northern Rock have to be a matter for its management. That is absolutely right. I would just say to the right hon. Gentleman, as he was a member of the last Conservative Government, that there are repossessions today, and that is extremely unfortunate, but they are at a fraction of the level they were when he was a Minister.

My right hon. Friend should know that his statement will be widely welcomed, even though we are all aware that difficult decisions lie ahead. He was right to stress a few moments ago that the primary responsibility for this debacle lies with the former managers of Northern Rock. Given that that is so, does he consider it remarkable that the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) has uttered not one word of criticism of the previous management—they were Tories to a man, incidentally—but has instead reserved his indignation entirely for those who are trying to clear up the mess?

Order. I ask the House to remember that we are supposed to be putting questions to the Chancellor of the Exchequer about his stewardship of these matters.

You are, of course, right, Mr. Speaker. So, too, is my hon. Friend in his observation that the primary responsibility for Northern Rock’s difficulties has to rest with those on the Northern Rock board: they were responsible for the business model and had no fall-back position once it became clear that they could not secure the funding that was needed.

The Chancellor does not really believe all this stuff about restructuring Northern Rock, returning it to the market and giving money to the Northern Rock Foundation. His responsibility is to get the taxpayer off the £100 billion hook that that they are on, so that should be first, second, third and fourth on his list. To that end—this is a genuinely honest inquiry—will he explain something that I do not understand? Why has he chosen nationalisation rather than administration? He said again today that administration would result in a fire sale, but that is not necessarily so; he could quite easily have appointed Mr. Sandler as the administrator to proceed with the policies that he wanted him to pursue. That would have given the Chancellor far greater flexibility. He would not have acquired all the other liabilities of nationalisation that he is now taking on or have had the problem of compensating shareholders. In an administration, they would simply have taken what was left, which would probably have been nothing, whereas he is now going to face endless litigation from what looks like a group of very aggressive hedge funds that are latecomers to this party.

I know that the hon. Gentleman was trying to be helpful to his party, but I have to remind him of what the shadow Chancellor said in November last year—[Interruption.] I am quite sure that Conservative Members do not want to hear this, Mr. Speaker. When administration was being discussed, the shadow Chancellor said:

“The winding up of the bank would pose a significant risk to taxpayers’ money…and, of course, significant risks to the jobs of those people who work for Northern Rock”.

I could not have put it better myself.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that if the Opposition do not like hearing the good and sound words of The Daily Telegraph, they might care to read the leading article in today’s Financial Times, which described his decision as “sensible” and “non-ideological”, and likely to be very successful in achieving the purposes that were set out at the beginning? Is he aware that we wish the new management well in the job that it is about take on—ensuring that it will be a success for the taxpayer and others who have a stake in this business?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I think that most people recognise that the action we have taken is right in the interests of wider stability and of the taxpayers of this country.

May I return the Chancellor to the questions put to him by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith)? It is no good just saying that the state aid rules will deal with the issue of competition—they will not. The hon. Member for Blyth Valley (Mr. Campbell) has already named Northern Rock the people’s bank, so why should anybody retain support and deposits in building societies and other banks when this bank now has a Government guarantee? Will the Chancellor tell us what advice he has had from the Financial Services Authority about how to avoid any depositor thinking that all his deposit is guaranteed by the bank and not subject to the same financial services compensation scheme rules that apply to all other institutions?

Once again, half the Conservatives seem to want the bank to fail, while the other half are worried about its being too successful. I said in reply to the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) that whatever business plan is approved has to meet the European state aid rules, which are there to ensure that there is not unfair competition when an institution has a degree of support from a Government. It is important for Northern Rock to have the opportunity to continue to trade in order to get through this difficult period—and I am sure that it will be painful for the company. However, if we take the opposite view of removing the guarantees and stopping it trading or offering products—I am not sure that the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) was advocating that—we might as well put Northern Rock into administration, which would result in a significant loss to taxpayers. I cannot believe that that is his position.

Having many constituents who work for Northern Rock, I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s announcement. May I also add my welcome to that of the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) for the underwriting of the commitment to the foundation? Does my right hon. Friend agree, however, that the worst possible outcome for the work force, the shareholders, the Northern Rock Foundation and, more importantly, the north-east economy would be the nonsense proposed by the Conservatives of putting the bank into administration and having an asset sale?

My hon. Friend is right. Along with other hon. Members who represent north-eastern constituents, he rightly expresses concern about the bank and its employees. I very much hope that in the next few weeks, Ron Sandler and his team will continue to have the discussions that they started today with management and employees to see what can be done in restructuring the business to ensure that it has a future. It will be difficult because the market conditions are difficult, but what we have done gives the bank the opportunity to do that and at the same time ensures that we safeguard the interests of the taxpayer. To put it into administration—to run it down, which has appeared over the past half hour or so to be the developing policy among the Conservatives, would not be the right thing to do for anyone.

Following the Chancellor’s response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith), and following the Chancellor’s edict that it will business as usual at Northern Rock, how can he justify that Northern Rock’s special position in giving a better deal to depositors is within European Union rules? Is it or is it not?

As I said in reply to the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway), it would be a profound mistake to remove the guarantees that we have put in place. Those guarantees ensure the stability of the bank. They also protect individual savers. Removing them is not the right thing to do. I fully understand the concern that the bank should be allowed to continue to trade, but that it should not do so unfairly. The whole point of state aid rules is to ensure that that does not happen. That is certainly our intention, as much as, I am sure, it will be the intention of the Commission.

First, may I say to the Chancellor that he has been wise to take his time before arriving at this momentous decision? That is absolutely right. People will see it as a common-sense response to a difficult position. However, does he recall, in the days before demutualisation, that the bank was a sound building society, operating a good business model with significant reserves that were squandered on a pay-out at demutualisation? Does he accept that rather than rushing into another decision, which the Conservatives would like, to return it immediately to the market, further consideration should be given to the company’s mutualisation so that we return to the sanity of the days when building societies gave proper mortgages to people who required them for good purposes?

I am not sure that I can make a promise on the last point, but my hon. Friend is right that it was correct to give the management and shareholders time to come up with options and alternatives. We gave them that time. We had two bids. Unfortunately, when matched against the option of a temporary period of public ownership—I made the point many times that that had to remain on the table—it was not possible to proceed with those bids. He is right that it is important to get the correct decision.

The Chancellor is right to say that the Northern Rock Foundation is a crucial charitable institution in the north-east, but before he paints too rosy a picture of its prospects, can he confirm that the £15 million funding is less than half the £31 million that it received in 2006? Can he say what will happen to the foundation’s 15 per cent. stake in the bank, and whether any purchasers of Northern Rock’s assets will acquire an obligation to pay funds into it as the bank has done?

I do not think anyone would maintain that the foundation’s prospects have been affected by the difficulties in Northern Rock, which funded all its activities. On any view, the amount that Northern Rock was able to pay into it was going to decrease. We all recognise that it supports a great many activities in the north-east; I wanted to ensure that it had a considerable income, and although the £15 million is less than it was receiving, it is a substantial annual contribution. I did what I could to deal with that particular problem. As for the hon. Gentleman’s other question about the foundation, the legislation will make the necessary provision.

This morning I received an e-mail from a constituent who is a shareholder in Northern Rock. He said that he was a Labour supporter who would never vote Labour again because of what the Government had done. I have not yet had a chance to reply to my constituent, but should he vote for the Liberal Democrats, who would have nationalised the bank five months ago without seeking any of the private sector solutions that the shareholders required? Should he vote for the Conservatives, who would have let the bank sink with all the consequences for shareholders and employees alike? Or should he, on reflection, continue to support the Labour Government, who offer the best solution for the bank and the long-term future of the north-east’s economy?

Probably, the correct answer is the last one. Naturally we are all concerned about all those who experience a fall in the value of shares they have bought, but there is no getting away from the basic problem: these were shares in a bank whose business model was entirely dependent on the ability to raise large sums of money. Last summer, when the problem began in the international financial markets, the company had no fallback position, and it would have gone bust at that time if we had not intervened. That, I am afraid, is the stark reality, as I know my hon. Friend recognises. Today we are trying to ensure that we do the right thing by the taxpayers, while also helping the company to restructure and refocus its activities.

In his hat trick of humiliating statements, the Chancellor has told us that he is accepting the proposal in order to protect taxpayers. If that is the case, what independent assessment has the Treasury undertaken of the quality of the loan book? A year ago Northern Rock was writing mortgage business at two and a half times its market share, at a time of unprecedented house price inflation. It is highly likely that a large proportion of those mortgages will turn sour. Is the Chancellor relying entirely on the FSA’s assurances that the bank is solvent, or has he bothered to do a bit of independent checking himself?

The FSA is responsible for regulating Northern Rock. Ron Sandler and his new management team will want to make their assessment relating to the revised business plan on the basis of what they know about the bank, and they will make it their business to find out all that they need to know about it.

It was imperative for the Chancellor to intervene last year. He made the right decision, because in that very week Alliance and Leicester shares fell by a third, which signalled to anyone with any sense or political acumen that something had to be done. Now he has made the right decision again.

The Tories were not always where they are today. In 1971 Ted Heath did not run away from taking over Rolls-Royce, and it was saved. In 1975 Harold Wilson decided to save Burmah Oil, and as a result it too was saved. That is unlike the Notting Hill finance group, who run away at every single opportunity.

My hon. Friend makes a good point. It is a pity that the Conservative party, which initially supported the action we took, subsequently decided to run away from its consequences.

The European Commission has indicated that while the emergency loans made at commercial rates do not fall under state aid rules, the guaranteeing of deposits does, and it has given the Government six months for emergency restructuring. That six months runs out in March. For how long does the Chancellor think that the EC will condone this continuing situation before it bows to pressure from other banks and financial institutions to implement those rules?

We do have to submit a restructuring plan by March; that has been the case since last year. The hon. Gentleman touches on another important point by emphasising the problems that are faced. There have been similar difficulties in Europe—in Germany, the German Government and other authorities have had to take action to support their banks—because of issues that all stem from the same source: the problems that started in America last year and have spread throughout the world.

The Government have an enviable record in the last 11 years for economic stability and confidence in the economy. They took a decision last September on Northern Rock to preserve stability in the economy. What assessment has my right hon. Friend made of the stability of the UK economy? Is he aware, for example, of there having been a run on any other major bank or financial institution in the United Kingdom since last September?

My hon. Friend makes the point that this country has a very strong and stable economy. We have had more than 10 years of growth and we have very low unemployment and historically low interest and mortgage rates, which is in complete contrast to what we had in the early 1990s when the then Government lurched from one problem to another because they could not keep inflation down, they could not get interest rates down and they had unemployment of almost 3 million. No wonder they got into the difficulties that they faced then.

Business of the House

With permission, I should like to make a short business statement following on from the announcement that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has just made.

The business for the remainder of this week will now be as follows:

Tuesday 19 February—Consideration of a Business of the House motion, followed by all stages of the Banking (Special Provisions) Bill, followed by motion to approve a local government restructuring order relating to Shropshire.

Wednesday 20 February—Continuation of consideration in Committee of the European Union (Amendment) Bill [5th allotted day]. Any selected amendments to clause 2 relating to foreign, security and defence policy.

Thursday 21 February—Motion to approve the draft Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 (Continuance in force of sections 1 to 9) Order 2008, followed by motion to approve the draft Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2008 and the draft Guaranteed Minimum Pensions Increase Order 2008, followed by, if necessary, consideration of any Lords Amendments that may be received.

The House will not adjourn until the Speaker has signified Royal Assent.

I shall make a further business statement as usual on Thursday.

I thank the Leader of the House for making that business statement, but I have a number of questions about the handling of this week’s business.

As the Leader of the House announced, there will be a business motion tomorrow to programme the Banking (Special Provisions) Bill. We have already said that we will not hold up the Bill, but given that it has 24 pages, 17 clauses and two schedules, we need to ensure that it receives proper and full consideration. Will she guarantee that business will go beyond the 10 pm moment of interruption tomorrow, to ensure that debate on the Bill is not cut short unnecessarily—particularly as while this elected House has one day to debate the Bill, I understand that the unelected other place will have two days of debate on it? Given that the Committee stage of the Bill will come immediately after Second Reading, what will be the timetable for the tabling of amendments?

Despite the length of the Bill, a lot of detail will still be dealt with by order under the negative procedure. Members need to be able to see that order before they debate the Bill, so will the Leader of the House ensure that the draft order or orders are available to Members in the Vote Office tomorrow morning? Given the importance of the legislation to so many people, and to the reputation of London as a financial centre, can we have a commitment that the order will be subject to a full debate on the Floor of this House, rather than that taking place in Committee with a limited number of Members being able to take part? When will that debate on the orders take place? Will she consider changing the business for this Friday, so that we can debate the orders then? Failing that, will she commit to holding that debate on the Floor of the House next week?

Following the change to tomorrow’s business, when will the sixth allotted day of debate on the European Union (Amendment) Bill take place? Will the Leader of the House guarantee that the House will still have the same amount of time—the same number of days’ debate on the Floor of the House—on that Bill as had previously been set aside?

Over the past months, the Government have dithered and delayed on Northern Rock, but the House needs proper time to consider the Banking (Special Provisions) Bill. Will the Leader of the House guarantee that the House will be given that time to consider it, and the orders pertaining to it, in full?

Draft orders will be laid in the usual way by the Chancellor of the Exchequer before the House rises today. I shall give the House next week’s business in the usual way in the business statement on Thursday, but I can say that there will be no less debate on the European Union (Amendment) Bill than was originally anticipated. As the right hon. Lady will understand, it will be moved back by a day, but we do not expect to curtail the debate that we had scheduled on that important Bill.

As far as consideration in this House and the other House is concerned, the right hon. Lady will know that the procedures of the other House are a matter for it. I know that she will understand that, the decision having been made by the Government on Northern Rock, it is important that we act expeditiously in order that we can have certainty and business as usual, at no loss of confidence to customers and staff. The decision having been made, it is important that this House turn its attention to scrutinising the Bill on the matter and to making its decision as quickly as possible.

We welcome the statement by the Leader of the House and the intention that this important Bill should receive Royal Assent by the end of this working week. That seems absolutely the right objective. It is a substantial Bill and potentially deals with any bank, and building societies as well.

In addition to the questions asked by the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May), may I ask the Leader of the House for a couple of other assurances relating to the handling of the Bill in this House? There is usually a difficulty with amendments if we go straight from Second Reading into Committee on the Floor of the House. Can she assure me that there will be an opportunity for Members of the House to take advice on amendments from Clerks from now until then, so that they can be cleared as being in order, and that there will be short interruptions between Second Reading and Committee stage, between Committee stage and Report and between Report and Third Reading, so that people can be fully aware of exactly what the state of the Bill is and what has happened?

Will the Leader of the House be clear that if colleagues around the House, particularly but not only from the north-east, are willing, able and concerned to debate the matter way beyond 10 o’clock, we absolutely should not impose any artificial restrictions? We should be willing and able, as we have regularly been in the past on far less important legislation, to go through the night if that is required, and to have until 11.30 on Wednesday morning to deal with the Bill at its first time before us.

On Thursday’s business, I welcome the fact that the Leader of the House expects the Bill to come back to us, if there are any Lords amendments, on Thursday. Because we have two other important pieces of business, on terrorism matters and social security uprating, which by tradition and by arrangement are fixed in their time, may I suggest that, with the consent of both Opposition parties, she might agree that we take the Bill first on Thursday, if it is ready and if there are amendments from the Lords? I am aware that a second day of debate may be provided for there, but it is important that if there are amendments, we have the time to examine them and deal with them properly. The Leader of the House knows that we support the Bill and will not obstruct it at all, but it has to be properly debated. It is hugely important not just for Northern Rock but for the whole banking and building society industry.

My last point is on the knock-on effects of the Bill. I completely understand that the topical debate on Thursday will be lost, as that is a reasonable conclusion. However, because the timetable for the European Union (Amendment) Bill has been knocked back one day, will the Leader of the House give Opposition parties a half-way assessment of the timetabling of the second half of the Bill in Committee, to see whether we can reach a more satisfactory agreement about the timing for the rest—and most controversial bits—of that Bill? That might mean fewer complaints that the Government are steamrollering that Bill through the House.

I have announced that we will have a Business of the House motion, which will be debatable and which will be tabled before the House rises so that hon. Members have a chance to consider it. There will be a debate on that motion tomorrow.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his support for the Bill and I agree that it has to be properly debated, but it also has to be brought in expeditiously to achieve the desired effect. As for the question of when on Thursday we should consider any Lords amendments, we have scheduled that as the last business, because if it were the first business we might not know whether the Lords have concluded their consideration and agreed any amendments. It is therefore important for us to deal with the other issues first and then come to the question of any Lords amendments later.

On the issue of tabling of amendments, I do not accept the argument for a gap after Second Reading. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor placed a draft Bill in the Table Office this morning, so that hon. Members could consider its terms. I am sure that they will be able to obtain the advice of the ever helpful Clerks on what amendments will be in order. Hon. Members will be able to table amendments tomorrow.

I welcome the business statement and I also welcome the fact that the draft orders will be available tonight. When I checked with the Public Bill Office and the Table Office an hour and a half ago, the explanatory notes were not available. This is a 24-page Bill and it is quite technical, so while I congratulate the Treasury team and the draftspeople on what they have done with the draft orders, can my right hon. and learned Friend say when the explanatory notes will be available for Members?

The explanatory notes will be available right away, if not sooner. They are very important and I will ensure that they are available as soon as possible today.

Why does the Leader of the House not take the House properly into account? Why not let us have the Second Reading of the Bill tomorrow and the remaining stages the day after? We cannot table amendments until after Second Reading. It is important that the Bill is properly considered—I speak as one who is not fundamentally opposed to it—and therefore all that the Leader of the House has to do is have a slightly more radical reshaping of the next few parliamentary days, perhaps into the beginning of next week. We could have the Second Reading tomorrow, with a vote at 10 o’clock, and the remaining stages the day after. I commend that proposition to the Leader of the House.

The House will understand that the Bill needs to be considered in this House and in the House of Lords. We have to be sure that we do not prolong any uncertainty and that we come to a swift conclusion. Of course, I have taken into account how the Bill should be dealt with in the House. We want proper scrutiny as well as an outcome that takes place as expeditiously as possible. However, the hon. Gentleman will know that it is not unprecedented in such situations for a Bill to be dealt with in this way. I have a list of Bills—it is far to long for me to read out to the House—that the House was asked to consider in one day because of the circumstances that arose. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that that is the case. The way in which we are proceeding is necessary and it is not unprecedented.

The Leader of the House has made it quite clear that she will allow debate only tomorrow and she has refused to answer the question of whether the debate will go beyond 10 o’clock. Her manner, supported by the Chief Whip’s body language, makes it quite clear that debate will not be allowed to go beyond 10 o’clock—only, as far as I can see, because the Chief Whip wants to allow the Labour party to go home at 10 o’clock tomorrow evening.

The Leader of the House was present for the statement a few moments ago and she saw that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was quite unable to answer a number of questions about how the bank will maintain business as usual. Most of the replies were party political hits at what the Conservative party was supposed to be doing or not doing. There was no explanation of what business as usual will mean for the bank. If every stage of the Bill will be taken in six hours tomorrow—with full parliamentary scrutiny—that surely reduces the handling of the decision to a parliamentary farce after it has taken so long to come to the rather startling decision to nationalise a bank for an indefinite period, putting huge sums of taxpayers’ money at risk.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman has been in this House long enough to know that on occasions the Government can ask the House to act decisively when action is needed in respect of a certain situation once we decide that we want to ensure that the uncertainty is as short as possible and that we will bring in a Bill that will give the Government powers to act. He will know that tomorrow will involve the Bill’s Second Reading and its consideration in Committee. We will discuss the powers that will be taken by the Government. There will be further debate on the exercise of those powers, no doubt, as the situation unfolds.

Points of Order

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I seek your guidance on a point of clarification about the exchange that just took place on the tabling of amendments to the Bill? The Leader of the House did not answer the question about when it would be possible to table amendments to the Bill. Normally, amendments can be tabled only after Second Reading has been completed. Tomorrow, we will consider a business motion and then Second Reading. At what time will it be possible for hon. Members to table amendments to the Bill for consideration in Committee?

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. May we also have some guidance on the precise times that are being proposed, first, for Second Reading and, secondly, for Committee?

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. If I understand the position, amendments cannot be tabled formally until after Second Reading. Will you give us guidance and advice on how long the House authorities will need to supply them to us in a printed form so that colleagues have a chance to look at them and so that you, your colleagues and Mr. Speaker can order them and decide which are selectable and which should be selected? Would it therefore be possible, from your point of view as Chair, to allow the House to be suspended for half an hour or however long it takes—as has happened on many occasions in the past—while we get our acts together and know what we are about to do to this important Bill?

First, I shall deal with the two points of order about the tabling of amendments. I am advised that the Public Bill Office will be able to receive and advise Members about the tabling of amendments with effect from this afternoon and this evening. I hope that that addresses the concerns raised by the two hon. Members.

Sir Patrick, there was quite a lot of noise. Would you mind repeating for me your point of order?

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I asked whether the House could have some indication today about how much time we will have for the debates on Second Reading and in Committee.

I must advise the hon. Gentleman that the issue that he raises is a matter for the Government; it is for them to table a motion. I am sorry that I cannot be more helpful than that.

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. During the previous statement, the Chancellor quoted me as having said something on the television this morning. He quoted, quite rightly, me saying that it would be wrong to hand over Northern Rock at an undervalue to a private sector organisation. He implied that I thus approved of his policy. Just for the record, may I read a previous sentence that I had said—[Interruption.]

I want to make it clear that the Chancellor was taking my words out of context. I said:

“We think that the better solution would have been to allow the Bank of England to take control of Northern Rock, to effectively lead a protective administration of Northern Rock, without taking it into public ownership.”

That is not a point of order for the Chair, but the hon. Gentleman has placed on the record the point that he wanted to make, and the comments have been heard by those on the Treasury Bench.

Orders of the Day

Health and Social Care Bill

[Relevant document: The Eighth Report from the Joint Committee on Human Rights of Session 2007-08, Legislative Scrutiny: Health and Social Care Bill, HC 303.]

As amended in the Public Bill Committee, considered.

New Clause 1

Certain regulated activities to be functions of a public nature

‘A regulated activity under this Part shall be deemed to be a function of a public nature for the purposes of section 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998 (c. 42) where it is performed wholly or partly at public expense and pursuant to statutory powers.’.—[Mr. Dismore.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 2—Human rights framework for Commission—

‘The protection and promotion of human rights shall be central to the performance of the functions of the Commission.’.

New clause 4—Health and social care standards: content—

‘(1) Standards set by the Secretary of State under section 41 shall—

(a) expressly state that all persons for whom health or social care services are provided are entitled to respect for their rights and that service providers (registered in accordance with Chapter 2) have a responsibility to respect such rights;

(b) require that service providers respect the rights of persons for whom health and social care services are provided;

(c) require that service providers provide their staff, whether employed directly or indirectly, with appropriate education and training in relation to respecting the rights of service users;

(d) require service providers to specify and publish the procedures for making a complaint by any person about a regulated activity;

(e) require service providers to put in place appropriate procedures for ensuring that any person who is aware of any failure to respect any other person’s rights in relation to a regulated activity being conducted by that service provider to report such a failure to a designated person;

(f) require service providers to ensure that, where any person is being discharged from a health care service to a social care service regulated under this Part, the rights of such persons are fully respected; and

(g) require service providers to disseminate the standards set under this Part which are applicable to them to users of their services.

(2) The Secretary of State may prepare and publish statements of standards in relation to the provision of health care and social care dealing with matters other than those listed in subsection (1).

(3) In this section, a “designated person” is a person designated by a provider of health or social care services to receive and resolve complaints.’.

Amendment No. 11, in clause 2, page 2, line 13, at end insert—

‘(bb) the availability and adequacy of advocacy services relating to the bodies it regulates,’.

Amendment No. 8, page 2, line 18, at end insert—

‘(da) the need to improve the range and quality of information provided by health care and social care services to users of those services about their rights;’.

Amendment No. 5, page 2, line 28, after second ‘the’, insert ‘rights and’.

Amendment No. 3, in clause 16, page 7, line 28, leave out ‘may’ and insert ‘shall’.

Amendment No. 4, page 7, line 32, after ‘safety’, insert ‘, rights’.

Amendment No. 6, in clause 42, page 21, line 2, after ‘quality’, insert

‘including, without limitation, respect for the rights of any person’.

Amendment No. 7, in clause 92, page 46, line 12, at end insert—

‘“rights” includes human rights under the Human Rights Act 1998 (c. 42).’.

Amendment No. 14, in clause 108, page 54, line 3, after ‘safety’, insert ‘rights’.

Amendment No. 15, in clause 120, page 65, line 25, at end insert—

‘(1A) The appropriate Minister shall by regulations make provision in relation to awareness of, and training in, human rights in accordance with this section.’.

Amendment No. 16, in clause 122, page 66, line 16, at end insert—

‘“rights” include human rights under the Human Rights Act 1998;’.

Amendment No. 17, in schedule 6, page 138, line 29, at end insert—

‘(3A) The OHPA shall have regard to the desirability of improving the awareness of, and training in, human rights of its members.’.

Amendment No. 18, in schedule 9, page 165, line 27, at end insert—

‘(ea) awareness of, and training in, human rights;’.

I also wish to speak in support of new clauses 2 to 4 and amendments Nos. 3 to 18. These new clauses and amendments have been tabled in my name and that of the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris), who cannot be here because he is away on Select Committee business, on behalf of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which I chair and of which he is a member. As hon. Members will know, we scrutinise all Government Bills for their compatibility with the Human Rights Act 1998 and the UK’s international human rights obligations. We report on the most significant human rights issues, and we have now begun to publish amendments to give effect to our recommendations. Our new clauses and amendments deal with omissions from the Bill. We expect to publish another report on the Bill shortly, commenting on some of the proposals in the Bill, particularly those to do with public health.

New clause 1 deals with the scope of the Human Rights Act—in particular, the meaning of the term “public authority”, which has become somewhat restricted, far more so than originally intended, and is consequently an extremely important issue. My Committee has published two reports in recent years on the meaning of the term “public authority” in section 6 of the Human Rights Act. That section requires public authorities to act in a way that is compatible with the convention rights set out in the schedule to the Act. The definition of the term “public authority” includes

“any person certain of whose functions are functions of a public nature.”

What constitutes a function of a public nature is not further defined in the Human Rights Act. When the issue was discussed during the passage through Parliament of the then Human Rights Bill, it was clearly understood that that provision was intended to cover private sector providers of publicly funded services—public services that had been contracted out to the private sector or wholly privatised, for example.

A series of court cases, starting with the so-called Leonard Cheshire case and culminating in the judgment by the Law Lords in the YL case in June 2007, has narrowed the scope of the Human Rights Act as originally intended, particularly in relation to care homes. The YL case concerned the eviction from a private sector care home of an elderly and frail old lady whose care was paid for by Birmingham city council. By a majority of three to two, the Law Lords ruled that the person concerned could not bring an action against the care home under the Human Rights Act, over the infringement of her rights under article 8 of the convention—the right to respect for her private life and home. They said that her claim lay solely against the local authority that had funded her care. The 1998 Act therefore does not apply to private bodies, and the Law Lords found that that included private care homes, even for publicly funded residents.

In our March 2007 report on this subject, we concluded that there was a strong case for a separate interpretative Act that would clarify the meaning of the phrase “functions of a public nature” in the Human Rights Act. The outcome of the YL judgment has served only to reinforce our concerns and emphasise the need for the Government to act urgently, to reinstate the originally intended scope of the Human Rights Act. That is especially the case given that the Government’s strategy of seeking a positive judgment in a higher court has manifestly failed to deliver the desired outcome.

Since the YL judgment, Ministers have expressed agreement in principle with our position that the current state of the law is unsatisfactory, especially for elderly care home residents, who are an especially vulnerable group that the Human Rights Act should protect. For example, the Minister of State, Department of Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw), said in Committee that the Government were

“committed to amending the Human Rights Act to ensure that all independent providers of publicly funded care homes are covered by it.”––[Official Report, Health and Social Care Public Bill Committee, 15 January 2008; c. 200.]

I introduced a private Member’s Bill in the last Session that would have clarified the scope of the Human Rights Act. During its Second Reading debate in June 2007, the then Minister, who is now the Solicitor-General, said that the Government were “committed to taking action” that year. Unfortunately, they have not moved quickly to clarify the scope of the Human Rights Act. Instead, they propose to bring forward a consultation on the issue as part of the Green Paper on a possible British Bill of Rights and responsibilities. We have been told that the Green Paper will be published in the first half of this year, so it seems pretty clear that concrete proposals will not emerge from the consultation exercise before the next general election—no matter when that happens to be.

I want to reinforce my hon. Friend’s point, with which I totally agree. It is almost 10 years to the day since the then Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw), said that “public authorities” should extend to private providers fulfilling public functions. Some 10 years on from that commitment, it is time for us to act accordingly.

I think that everyone believed that that was the case until Leonard Cheshire put a question mark over it and the YL case put a lid on it. It is only since last June that we have become significantly aware of how serious the problem is and how urgent it is that we resolve it.

My Committee’s preference remains for the scope of the Human Rights Act to be clarified by means of a separate Act dealing solely with the wider issue of the meaning of “public authority”. That would have the benefit of dealing with the problem of scope across the board, rather than on a piecemeal basis. It would help other vulnerable groups that are deprived of protection by the ruling, the implications of which are very broad. Such people would include tenants of housing associations and social housing, and children under special educational needs statements whose needs are met in independent schools. It would also ensure that the law in this area was consistent throughout the United Kingdom. I have brought forward my private Member’s Bill again in this Session, and I urge Ministers not to delay in tackling what are, I accept, a complex range of issues.

In the absence of a general solution to the problem, however, my Committee supports an interim solution for the health and social care sector, given the urgency of the issue. In our report of last summer on older people in health care and the services provided to them, we found that 21 per cent. of care homes still did not meet basic minimum standards. We set out a catalogue of abuse, neglect, carelessness, lack of privacy, dignity and confidentiality, and downright discrimination against the elderly. The elderly would be protected from all those things by the Human Rights Act, but given the implications of the YL case, those in private sector homes have no such protection under the Act.

My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Kelvin Hopkins) moved an amendment in the Public Bill Committee that would have defined all providers of health and social care as public authorities for the purposes of the Human Rights Act. The amendment had the support of the Equality and Human Rights Commission and most of the non-governmental organisations. My Committee is sympathetic in principle to the substance of the proposal. The provision of health and social care is subject to a stringent regulatory regime that involves registration, supervision and inspection. We agree in principle that that should be sufficient to attract the protection of the Human Rights Act. We are left with an anomaly of two elderly residents in the same care home: one would be protected because she was being funded by the local authority, but the other would not be protected because her assets were more than £21,500. Such a situation was pointed out by Help the Aged in its briefing for today’s debate.

Such an amendment, however, would extend the protection of the Human Rights Act to self-funders and would go well beyond what Parliament intended when it passed the Human Rights Act. It would raise wider questions about rights—something that has become known as “horizontality” in human rights jargon. We believe that such an issue—the question of whether private individuals can enforce their human rights against other private individuals or companies that are not public authorities—should be considered as part of the wider debate on the Bill of Rights. Most people do not realise that the Human Rights Act applies to public bodies, not the private sector generally. There is a strong case for horizontality, but the original Human Rights Act did not provide for that. We are simply trying to restore the position to what it was before the Leonard Cheshire and YL cases.

Is it not a problem arising from privatisation that people not only find themselves in the private sector but have their Human Rights Act coverage removed as well?

Yes, that is a consequence of the YL case. During a Liaison Committee sitting, I put that point to the former Prime Minister. He said that such a situation would be severely anomalous, and that people with publicly funded places in the private sector ought to be protected by the Act, as not protecting them would militate against contracting out and privatisation as ways to deliver public services.

Our other concern about the broad amendment moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North to encompass self-funders in the health and social care sector is that it would do little to fix the problem for other vulnerable groups such as those whom I have described, and might support the false impression that nothing further needs to be done to rectify the anomaly. New clause 1 proposes restoring, for the health and social care sector pure and simple, the Human Rights Act’s original intention, which is that the Act should cover private-sector providers of publicly funded services, under arrangements made pursuant to statutory powers. I hope that the Minister will consider carefully the new clause and its purpose. I hope that he will accept it, but if he is unwilling to do so, I urge him to tell the House today that he will undertake to introduce his own amendments to achieve the same effect in the other place.

The other new clauses and amendments that I have tabled are intended to implement the recommendations in our report, “The Human Rights of Older People in Healthcare”, published last summer. We described how the use of human rights can be a powerful lever to improve the quality of services, as well as guaranteeing in their delivery basic concepts such as dignity and respect for the elderly in hospitals and care homes. As I said, the report gave graphic evidence of abuse and showed that many homes are not compliant with existing regulations. We said that the care standards regulations should require care homes to respect residents’ human rights. The regulations governing the operation of health and social care providers, which deal with matters including staff training and the handling of complaints, require that the health, safety and welfare of service users be secured. We recommended that users’ human rights should also be central to the operation of health and social care providers, and amendments Nos. 3 and 4 are designed to achieve that.

We recommended that the new Care Quality Commission should adopt a human rights framework to underpin and inform its work and make it more effective in fulfilling its statutory duties. We were disappointed that the Government’s reply to our report did not address that issue adequately. New clause 2 and amendments Nos. 5 to 7 would ensure that the protection and promotion of human rights are central to the new commission’s performance of its functions. If the Minister cannot accept the amendments, I should be interested to hear why he thinks our proposals are unnecessary. Help the Aged has said clearly that its main concern is the YL loophole. Notwithstanding that, it believes that the CQC can and should promote and protect human rights through its own work, saying:

“It is vital that the CQC takes a human rights-based approach”,

and that

“this vital remit should be explicit in the legislation…CQC’s work on human rights should go far beyond that of any normal public body. Respect for and promotion of human rights should be fundamental”.

Help the Aged welcomes the amendments that I have tabled.

The outgoing Commission for Social Care Inspection also supports our approach, saying:

“The new commission should place the rights of the people who use services and their carers at the heart of its work and they should have clear rights of access to it.”

Our report on the Bill published in February clearly recommended that the

“merged inspectorate…should adopt a human rights framework”,

and we were disappointed by the Government’s response, which said:

“The Department of Health will not be specifying the precise work programme of the new regulator, but will expect compliance…to form an important element of its work”.

There are three problems with that. First, putting the human rights of health and social care users at the heart of the commission’s work is not equivalent to specifying the precise work programme; it is more fundamental. Secondly, compliance with the Human Rights Act is a legal requirement, not simply something that the Government can expect to happen. Our concern is to ensure that human rights influence the work of the new commission across the board and are not seen simply as a tick-box compliance exercise.

Finally, our report concluded that the Healthcare Commission should not view the 1998 Act as one of the large number of sets of regulations to which it is subject. We said that it should instead regard the framework created by the Act as overarching and fundamental to all its work. We regret that the Department of Health failed to address that point. It simply restated the current position—that the Act is seen as just another statute applicable to public bodies and demanding compliance, rather than as the culture change that we recommended in last summer’s report on the human rights of the elderly.

We have seen the point come through strongly in the evidence that we have been taking on access to services for adults with learning disabilities—an issue on which we hope to report in a few weeks’ time. I am pleased that the CSCI fully agrees with our conclusions. I hope that the Minister will reflect on that and agree with us that it is essential that the issue becomes an overarching part of the commission’s work.

Amendments Nos. 8 and 11 deal with the functions of the new commission. Amendment No. 8 would require it to take into account the

“need to improve the range and quality of information provided by health care and social care services to users of those services about their rights”.

That is crucial. Without clear and accessible information about how human rights apply in hospitals and care homes, service users will not be in a position to challenge how they are treated or to know how to seek redress. We have been particularly concerned about older people and people with learning disabilities, but accessible information is essential to secure the protection of the human rights of us all.

We have all seen the signs in public buildings saying that staff are entitled to be treated with dignity and respect. However, we do not often see signs that say that service users, patients or relatives are entitled to be treated with dignity and respect by staff. That, however, should be part of the information process. A lot of hospitals, including those in my constituency, give leaflets to people as they arrive about how they can expect to be treated, but not about their rights in respect of how they will be treated. Such information is essential if people are to be able to enforce those rights.

We also recommended that in undertaking its work, the new commission should take into account the provision of advocacy services. Amendment No. 11 deals with that issue. The Government share our view of the importance of advocacy for older people in health care as well as in other contexts. The important role that advocacy can play in supporting vulnerable people in health and social care will be reinforced by a statutory reference to advocacy in the Bill.

New clause 4 relates to health and social care standards. The Bill does not require the Secretary of State to publish care standards or indicate what the content of those standards might be. We recommended that the CQC should apply a single set of standards for health and social care in relation to issues engaging the human rights of service users. New clause 4 is our suggestion of what a human rights standard might look like. It includes requirements in respect of: staff training on respecting the rights of service users; the publication of complaints procedures; a duty on people to report any failure to respect human rights that they see; discharge arrangements; and the publicising of the standards that apply. If the Minister sees a problem with those requirements, I would be grateful if he told me what it is.

Finally, we recommended that a basic understanding of how the 1998 Act requires the protection of basic principles such as dignity, fairness, respect and equality should be included in the qualifications, accreditation and re-licensing of health professionals; amendments Nos. 14 to 18 seek to achieve that.

Achieving effective human rights protection requires a combination of different measures operating in different ways to make human rights considerations more central to the decision-making processes of health and social care providers and the new regulator. I urge the Government to accept in principle that the Bill should be amended to reapply the 1998 Act to publicly funded residents of private sector care homes. I also urge him to consider seriously our other amendments, all of which are intended to protect the rights of extremely vulnerable people in the health and social care sectors.

We are debating one of the enduring themes of the Bill. In Committee, Members on both sides made several attempts to beef up its human rights aspects. Most of us were concerned about the fact that 90 per cent. of care homes are run by the private and voluntary sector and are therefore not covered by the Human Rights Act 1998. That was never Parliament’s intention when the legislation was introduced, but case law and decisions in the courts have brought us to where we are today.

It is right and proper that we try to amend that, but there is also a wider problem that probably cannot be dealt with in this Bill. We need to think of ways to avoid a situation whereby people can sit side by side in the same private nursing home with different rights because one person is funding their own care and the other is having it paid for by the state. The Minister has been genuinely sympathetic as regards this state of affairs, and it may be easier to deal with it in stages. However, it is worth pointing out that it has been allowed to exist for far too long. We missed an opportunity with the Equality Act 2006, when several amendments were tabled, and the private Member’s Bill promoted by the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) never saw the light of day. We would not be doing our duty if we were to allow yet another opportunity to slip by. If we leave it all to a consultation as part of a Green Paper on a possible British Bill of Rights, that may be too little, too late.

It is helpful that the Joint Committee on Human Rights has considered the Bill in such detail. I thank hon. Members for tabling the amendments, because they give us a chance to debate the issue once more. In the summary of its report, the Committee says:

“Although the Committee prefers a general solution to clarify the meaning of ‘public function’ in the HRA, it also sees the need for an interim solution in the Health and Social Care Bill. The Committee is sympathetic in principle to an amendment moved in Committee to make all providers of health and social care public authorities for the purposes of the HRA. But this may go beyond what Parliament intended”.

That sums up the situation very neatly. The fact that this presents a difficult challenge does not mean that it is not worth doing.

I welcome new clause 2, which would make it clear that the new commission should adopt a human rights-based approach. It will have to deal with a wide range of legislation, and it is important to many that the human rights aspects are not just a tick-box exercise to be thought about afterwards. The thrust of its work should have human rights principles at its core.

I am disappointed that new clause 3 was not selected—indeed, I am disappointed that several new clauses and amendments were not selected, but perhaps a little more of that later—because its inclusion would have sent a clear message to providers that the CQC could investigate any transgressions of the Human Rights Act. If there is a problem with the amendment, it is that it does not deal with the devolved Governments. I am slightly uneasy about supporting a situation whereby there are potentially weaker human rights in the devolved nations, and I should like that to be addressed.

Certain comments in the Committee’s report do not require legislation to implement but should nevertheless be borne in mind. I was struck by the emphasis on accessible information about human rights, and how that applies to health care settings. Such information will be available for care home residents, relatives, carers, advocates and the public as a whole. At the moment, the professionals involved know what is required of them, but it is sometimes not set out in black and white. Members of the public do not feel empowered, and making more information available to guide them through the process, letting them know what is acceptable and what is not, will do them a great service.

I did not quite catch whether the hon. Member for Hendon planned to press his new clause to a vote. As a matter of principle, we would want to support it, despite our reservation that the devolved nations are not included.