House of Commons
Tuesday 10 July 2012
The House met at half-past Two o’clock
[Mr Speaker in the Chair]
Business before Questions
Rookery South (Resource Recovery Facility) Order 2011
That the Committee appointed to join with the Lords as the Joint Committee to consider the Petitions of General Objection and the Petitions of Amendment against the Rookery South (Resource Recovery Facility) Order 2011 have leave to visit and inspect the site of the proposed development, and other sites named in the order, provided that no evidence shall be taken in the course of such visits and that any party who has made an appearance before the Committee be permitted to attend by their Counsel or Agent or other representative.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
Consolidated Fund Account 2011-12
That there be laid before this House an Account of the Contingencies Fund, 2011-12, showing—
(1) a Statement of Financial Position;
(2) a Statement of Cash Flows; and
(3) Notes to the Account; together with the Certificate and Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon.—(Mr Newmark.)
Oral Answers to Questions
Deputy Prime Minister
The Deputy Prime Minister was asked—
1. If he will estimate the change in the number of voters on the electoral register between 1 December 2014 and 1 December 2015. (115845)
Before I answer the hon. Gentleman’s question, I am sure that the whole House will join me in offering our deepest sympathies to the family of PC Ian Dibell and his colleagues in Essex police. Our police officers keep us safe day in and day out, and they act when they see public safety at risk, whether on duty or not. PC Ian Dibell was a dedicated professional who sadly has paid the ultimate price.
The Government are committed to ensuring that the maximum number of eligible people are registered to vote. Our impact assessment report on individual electoral registration predicted that the current completeness of the electoral register is expected to be maintained during the transition to IER. As part of IER, we are actively exploring ways in which we can make it as easy and secure as possible for citizens to register to vote—for example, by enabling online registration. The Government are also working to raise registration rates among under-registered groups prior to the transition to IER.
May I associate myself, and doubtless all right hon. and hon. Members, with the Deputy Prime Minister’s opening remarks?
Will the Deputy Prime Minister join me in welcoming the increase in voter registration of 40,000 in the past four years that has been secured by Labour-run Glasgow city council? Is not this rise of more than 10% in danger of being wiped out by his proposals for individual voter registration, which when tried out in Northern Ireland took more than one in five voters off the electoral roll?
The hon. Gentleman might be unaware of the record on overall levels of registration during the years in which his party was in office. In 2000, 91% to 92% of all people were registered; in other words, 3.9 million people were missing from the register. By December 2010, the completeness of the register had gone down to 85% to 87%. Labour therefore presided over 2 million people being lost from the register —not a record that I suggest he should be proud of.
Many people go missing from the register when they move home. What is being done with estate agents and letting agencies to make sure that people are registered when they change their address?
We have been working with those involved to make sure that the system is as complete as possible. That is in addition to many other measures that we have developed, most notably the data-matching work that we have done such that many people do not need to register if they already exist on a database. All the evidence is that that will provide automatic registration for a very large number of people.
Many people believe that the number of electors on the new electoral register will be significantly depleted by December 2015. Given that this is when the new boundary review is to begin, would it not be sensible to use the old register for the boundary review?
As we have seen from the latest statistics, the old register appears to be much more flawed than the hon. Gentleman’s question implies. We are trying to learn from that experience and from other experiences such as individual voter registration in Northern Ireland. We are not only carrying out the data-matching initiative that I mentioned, but moving the 2013 household canvass to early 2014 to make sure that it is as up to date as possible ahead of the next general election; phasing the transition over two years to carry forward existing electors who are not registered under the new system in the first year so that they are eligible to vote at the next general election; and writing to all voters with reminders and doorstep canvassing in 2014.
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that individual voter registration will get us not just a fairer but a much more accurate voting system?
Absolutely. Let us remember that the point of this measure, and the reason why both parties on the Government Benches agreed to put it in the coalition agreement and to accelerate the process started under the previous Government is to bear down on fraud on the electoral register. I hope that all Members from all parts of the House think that we need to stamp on that.
Bill of Rights
2. What assessment he has made of the implications for his policies on constitutional reform of the introduction of a British Bill of Rights. (115846)
The hon. Lady will know that the Commission on a Bill of Rights is investigating the introduction of a UK Bill of Rights, building on our responsibilities under the European convention on human rights. It is due to report at the end of this year. We look forward to its report, but I do not want to pre-empt its conclusions.
I thank the Minister for his response. Given that there are absolute rights and qualified rights under the Human Rights Act 1998 and the margin of appreciation doctrine, does the Minister know whether the commission is considering the possibility of the Human Rights Act sitting alongside the Bill of Rights in a happy coalition of rights and responsibilities?
I do not know whether that is what the commission will recommend. It gave us some welcome interim advice on reform of the European Court of Human Rights, which was helpful in the negotiations that secured the agreement of all 47 members of the Council of Europe to some improvements, which were welcomed on both sides of the House. I will wait to see what the commission recommends at the end of the year.
Will the Minister confirm that, far from nibbling away at this problem, which many of us fear is what the commission is doing, any Bill of Rights will be based on Westminster legislation, not on European Union legislation or the European convention on human rights?
Again, I do not know what the commission will recommend. It contains distinguished and eminent lawyers on both sides of the argument. I think that it will come up with a very good report, and the Government will consider what it says. I remind my hon. Friend that this country signed up to the European convention on human rights only because this House decided that it should do so. We will listen to the commission’s conclusions and act on those that the Government support.
Given the special circumstances that exist in Northern Ireland, will the Minister have direct discussions with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland about Northern Ireland’s human rights legislation and a separate Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland?
My understanding is that discussions are under way on that point, but that the parties in Northern Ireland have not been able to reach a consensus. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will continue to have discussions, but he wants to reach a consensus among the parties in Northern Ireland before making progress.
Is it not a fundamental right of the British people to elect those who make our laws? Is it not a reasonable expectation that Parliament, once it has agreed that principle, will not allow it to be prevented by delay?
I very much agree with my right hon. Friend. Later today, I will have the opportunity to set out my views at greater length, which I hope the House will find interesting.
House of Lords Reform
3. What progress he expects to make on reform of the House of Lords; and if he will make a statement. (115848)
On the very subject that we were just discussing, the House will this afternoon conclude day two of the debate on the House of Lords Reform Bill. I look forward to the House supporting our Bill, which builds on a lot of the work that was done by the Labour party. We heard some good speeches from Labour Members yesterday, including the right hon. Members for Neath (Mr Hain) and for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), in support of the Bill.
If, as looks possible, the programme motion is defeated tonight, will the Minister promise the House that he will move an allocation of time or committal motion before the recess?
If the hon. Lady is committed to reform, which I believe from her record she is, I hope that she will support all the motions relating to the Bill on the Order Paper so that we can make progress—something that the Labour party never managed, despite the good work that it did, in all the years that it was in office.
8. The Deputy Prime Minister will be aware of the reports that the House of Lords Reform Bill is linked to the eventual passage, or not, of the boundary changes. As somebody who has an interest in that matter because, unfortunately, I do not face very good boundary changes, will the Minister confirm for me whether he will go ahead with that link? (115853)
My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister was asked that question by my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing). He made it clear that there is no specific link between different parts of the Government’s programme. Of course, we will urge Members from both coalition parties to support the whole of the Government’s programme, as we have to date.
House of Lords Reform (Referendum)
4. What his policy is on the holding of a referendum on his plans for House of Lords reform. (115849)
6. What his policy is on the holding of a referendum on his plans for House of Lords reform. (115851)
We are not persuaded by the arguments for holding a referendum on Lords reform. All three main parties committed to reform at the last election, and the views of the public are clearly and consistently in favour of introducing democratic legitimacy to the House of Lords.
The Deputy Prime Minister said in the House yesterday:
“Surely, it is simply time to trust the British people.”—[Official Report, 9 July 2012; Vol. 548, c. 26.]
Can you explain why you do not trust the British people to decide on the House of Lords in a referendum?
I am not going to be explaining anything, but the Deputy Prime Minister might want to try.
First, as I said, unlike other issues on which we have held referendums, on which there were profound differences between the stated positions of the political parties, all the main parties in the House have committed to reforming the other place for many years in their manifestos. Secondly, at a time like this, on a subject on which we are supposed to agree and when much of the country expects us to instil democracy in Parliament, it would be difficult to justify wasting about £80 million asking the public a question that they do not find controversial in the first place. That would nonplus many members of the public.
The final, very important point is that we as a country are going to face a hugely important issue in a referendum on the future of the United Kingdom during the course of this Parliament. I genuinely ask the hon. Lady, other members of her party and others who advocate a referendum to reflect seriously on the wisdom of saying that there should be another, parallel referendum that the public are not clamouring for, at a time when we are seeking to settle the future of the UK.
The Deputy Prime Minister says that he is not persuaded; let me try. There have been referendums on devolved Governments in Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland, on devolution for the north-east, on the alternative vote and on city mayors. Why can he not accept the genuine argument that to ensure the validation of such a major constitutional change as he proposes, we must put the question to the people on precedence as well as on principle?
Both the hon. Gentleman’s question and yesterday’s debate have revealed that House of Lords reform is immeasurably more controversial here than anywhere else in the rest of the country. The rest of the country thinks that there is a simple choice to be made—are we in favour of more democracy or less? Are we in favour of the simple principle that the people who make the laws of the land should be elected by the people who have to obey them? No one else thinks that is controversial, only the politicians, so why do we not just get on with it?
What conclusions does the Deputy Prime Minister think the public will draw if this House is incapable, with or without a referendum, of reforming a House of Lords packed with prime ministerial appointees and hereditary peers?
We rightly take pride in our democratic traditions in this country. We send young servicemen and servicewomen to fight for the principle of democracy elsewhere in the world, and we tour the world talking to other countries about how they should instil greater democracy. I think the rest of the world would look at this great mother of Parliaments and ask why on earth it was not possible for us to practise what we preach.
Why does the Deputy Prime Minister not have the guts to admit that the reason he fears a referendum on this issue is that he knows perfectly well that when people get to examine his recommendations they will utterly reject them, just as they did with the alternative vote?
As ever, my hon. Friend brings to bear a healthy and consistent degree of suspicion. I have set out the reasons why the case for a referendum has not been made. It would be expensive, difficult to justify to the public, who do not think it is necessary, and ill timed when we as a country have a much bigger question to address, which is the future of the United Kingdom, let alone the future of one of our parliamentary Chambers.
Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that even without a programme motion, it is perfectly possible for the House of Commons to debate, scrutinise and amend the House of Lords Reform Bill, and get it out of the Commons, in a sensible time? If he does not agree, why did his manifesto and that of the Conservatives commit to abolishing programme motions for Committee stages?
My own view, which I have always been very open about, is that a Bill of this complexity and self-evident controversy—at least in this place—is unlikely to progress without being properly timetabled in one shape or form. I should just ask the right hon. Gentleman this: is it not time he had the courage of his convictions? He says he believes in House of Lords reform, but he wills only the ends, not the means—[Interruption.] Will he just listen? The history books will not judge him kindly if he takes refuge in procedural obfuscation when this is a time for people to stand up and be counted.
Law of Succession
5. When he expects to bring forward legislative proposals to reform the law of succession. (115850)
Finally a question not on the House of Lords.
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his excellent work. He has been a steadfast campaigner for reform of the law of succession. I can confirm that we will bring forward UK legislation to give effect to changes to the rules of succession once we have secured the consent of the other Commonwealth realms. As he is aware, that work is being co-ordinated by the New Zealand Government, with whom we are working very closely. It is worth noting that the change on gender will apply to a child born after the date of the Perth announcement, namely 28 October 2011, even if the birth happens before the legislation is passed.
I thank the Deputy Prime Minister for that answer, but it is sad that we have waited a year since I met him and offered my ten-minute rule Bill as the vehicle for this change. I realise that the change will be backdated, but it would be greatly embarrassing if a royal child were born before we finally settle the matter. Does he have any plans to go to New Zealand to meet the Prime Minister there to try to get this matter speeded up?
As the right hon. Gentleman knows, thankfully the embarrassment would be spared if a child were born after the date at which the Perth decision was made. The rights of that unborn child are properly protected by the procedures. Just like him, I would love to wave a magic wand and dispense with such outdated and anachronistic rules governing whom a person in the line of succession can marry and those on male primogeniture, but we must move as a convoy with the 16 other Commonwealth realms. For one reason or another, that takes a bit of time.
The House appreciates the progress that the Deputy Prime Minister and the Government have made with the Commonwealth Heads of Government, but does he agree that, surely, during this jubilee year when people not only in the UK, but right across the Commonwealth, have shown that they hold our Queen in extremely high regard, nobody could possibly argue that a woman cannot succeed to the throne?
On this if not on other issues we have debated recently, I fervently agree with my hon. Friend. The idea that a younger son should become monarch instead of an elder daughter simply because he is a man is incomprehensible in this day and age.
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. (115860)
As Deputy Prime Minister, I support the Prime Minister on a full range of Government policy and initiatives. Within the Government, I take special responsibility for our programme of political and constitutional reform.
The Deputy Prime Minister often speaks of the importance of fairness in our society. There is a crisis meeting in London tomorrow of dairy farmers from across Britain about the reductions in prices imposed on them by processors. Will my right hon. Friend join me in condemning that outrageous behaviour?
Like many hon. Members on both sides of the House, I have met dairy farmers in my constituency who are distressed by the fluctuating prices in the milk and dairy market. As my hon. Friend knows, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is actively engaged, and it will look closely at the representations that will be made tomorrow.
How much has children’s participation in school sports fallen since the Deputy Prime Minister’s Government abolished the school sports partnership, which Labour introduced?
I cannot give the right hon. and learned Lady a precise figure, but I hope that—
Because I am not a walking encyclopaedia. I do not have all these facts and figures. [Interruption.] Oh, I am sorry. Am I also guilty of not knowing every single departmental statistic? I am sure the hon. Lady would have had the figure at her fingertips if she were in my position. Honestly!
None the less, I hope that the right hon. and learned Lady will co-operate with the Government in a positive spirit as we enthuse many, many children to take up sports that they have not taken up before and as we move towards this historic occasion of the Olympics.
The truth is that the Deputy Prime Minister does not know, and neither do the Government, because they have made it their business not to know by abolishing the school sports survey. Like people up and down the country, we are concerned about this, and our freedom of information requests to local councils show that the amount of PE teacher time spent organising school sport has fallen by 60%. At a time when everyone wants more children involved in more sport, will he admit that what his Government have done is a travesty, and will he reinstate the school sports partnerships?
I certainly remember the travesty under the right hon. and learned Lady’s Government of the industrial-scale sell-off of school playing fields. She never listened to complaints from us when that was going on. I think she should celebrate the fact that in this year, the year of the Olympics, thousands upon thousands of children are taking up sports they have never done before as part of the school Olympics.
T3. I am sure that the Deputy Prime Minister will agree that for far too long there has been an emphasis in NHS mental health services on crisis management rather than on the prevention and the community support that patients require. Will he outline what steps the Government are taking to address this problem and properly to look after patients with mental health problems in the community? (115863)
I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. I hope he has noticed that the operating framework recently published by the Department of Health for the NHS in England sets out priorities for the NHS that, for the first time, stipulate the expansion of access to psychological services as part of the overall commitment to the full roll-out of the improving access to psychological therapies programme by 2015. I know that the Minister of State, Department of Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), has dedicated a lot of time to this. I say to Members on both sides of the House who spoke in that very moving debate recently on mental health that they played a remarkable role in breaking down some of the taboos by speaking about an issue that afflicts one in four people in his country and which has often been kept in the shadows, leaving people to suffer in silence. It is finally being talked about in a more grown-up and open way.
T2. The Deputy Prime Minister wants the House of Lords to be more accountable, yet his Government are giving new dictatorial powers to elected mayors to veto decisions made by elected councillors. Will he say where the accountability is there? (115862)
I do not think they would be dictatorial powers in the hands of someone who has been democratically elected, but perhaps the hon. Lady sees some consistency between that position and defending unelected Members of the other place. I do not.
T7. It is vital that the electoral roll is accurate, but young people are quite poor at getting their names on to it. What measures can the Deputy Prime Minister take to ensure that they are engaged in the democratic process and put their names forward to cast a vote? (115868)
Interestingly, registration rates among young people in Northern Ireland are now higher than they are here, so we have looked carefully at what has been done in Northern Ireland to reach out in different ways to young people in order to tell them how to register and, crucially, to ensure that they are informed at the right time, so that they go on to register and get their names on the electoral roll.
T4. When this place passes a Bill that changes the power of the ballot box, which, it is generally agreed, the House of Lords Reform Bill undoubtedly does, how can the Deputy Prime Minister justify the argument that people are not entitled to a referendum? (115864)
As I explained earlier, although House of Lords reform greatly exercises people here—people in Westminster get terribly hot under the collar—most people in the country at large think it a fairly common sense reform to introduce a slither of democracy to a legislative Chamber. It is not an issue on which the main parties, formally speaking, disagree, and a referendum would be very expensive and, as I said, cut across an all-important referendum on the future of the United Kingdom.
T10. There is a body of opinion in Scotland that says that the upcoming referendum should have a third option: devo-max. Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that putting that option on the ballot paper in advance of detailed discussions with the UK Government would be misleading and wrong? (115871)
I disagree with people who want to turn the referendum on Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom into a sort of smorgasbord or multiple-choice exercise. That is playing cat and mouse with the Scottish voters. There should be a simple question —whether Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom: yes or no? In our view, that question, in plain, simple terms, should be put to the Scottish people as soon as possible.
T5. You were elected on the promise to scrap tuition fees, yet you trebled them, to such an extent that there is now a 12% reduction in the north-east in university applications. How can we trust you on anything, let alone House of Lords reform? (115865)
First, I have not broken any pledge. Secondly, I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not inclined to distrust me, but I will assume that his question was directed at the Deputy Prime Minister.
First, I have never hidden the fact that, as leader of a party that has 8% of MPs in this Chamber, I cannot deliver—much to my regret: not enough people voted for us at the last general election—every single line, and every crossed t and dotted i of our manifesto. That is the nature of plural compromise politics, and it is something that some of us are grown up enough to acknowledge.
On the all-important issue of the number of applications to university in the recent UCAS figures, which have been published overnight, the proportion of English school leavers applying to university is, in fact, the second highest on record. The percentage of 18-year-olds from disadvantaged areas applying to university is, according to the figures we have seen overnight, higher than at any time under the Labour Government.
The Deputy Prime Minister believes that we need 360 new elected politicians in Parliament. If I may be so bold as to paraphrase a well-respected former Prime Minister, Sir John Major, does this current Deputy Prime Minister agree that if the answer is more party-selected elected politicians, we are obviously asking the wrong question?
The impression that is sometimes given of the House of Lords—where it is seen through a sepia-tinted filter and everyone there is a dispassionate observer of the scene, unsullied by politics entirely—unfortunately does not quite conform to the truth. More than 70% of the Members of the House of Lords are there because of decisions taken by people such as me, not the British people. The largest number of people who are in the House of Lords through their former vocation are retired MPs, so we can take a choice: either we give the British people a say in who is there or we simply turn it increasingly into a retirement home for ex-MPs.
T6. When will the Government report on their Trident alternatives review, and will the Deputy Prime Minister commit to publishing the findings, which has not been the case with the Trident so-called value-for-money review? (115866)
The review on the alternatives to a like-for-like replacement of the Trident system is ongoing, according to the stipulation in the coalition agreement. My hon. Friend the Minister for Defence is heavily involved with it, and I am sure he will come to this House and seek to make a statement when the work is complete.
With the successful launch of the “Better Together” campaign, we now have campaigns in place for both sides of the argument on the future of Scotland. Has my right hon. Friend had a rational or sensible explanation from the Government of Scotland of why they want to deny the people of Scotland an early say in our future?
Bluntly, no—perhaps we will get an explanation in this place. I do not think the uncertainty of this endless boxing and coxing, and playing cat and mouse with the Scottish people on the part of the Scottish Government, does Scotland any good. It is damaging to investment. Indeed, a number of investors in Scotland and business groups have been saying that the uncertainty is bad for the Scottish economy, at a time when we are clearly facing economic difficulties in the United Kingdom as a whole. I therefore agree with my hon. Friend that it is time that we got on and simply put a simple, single question to the Scottish people, so that they can decide what their future is: in the United Kingdom or not.
T9. If the Deputy Prime Minister gets another mauling in the House today, will he finally change his mind about giving proper scrutiny to the House of Lords Reform Bill in this House, and if not, what will it take? (115870)
As the hon. Gentleman knows, the previous Labour Government introduced countless constitutional Bills that touched on our constitutional future in relation to the European Union, all of which were timetabled. We have been asking those on the Opposition Front Bench over and over again how many days the Opposition would like on the timetable but, still, answer comes there none.
Yesterday, the Deputy Prime Minister did an able job in defending himself against all the protests coming from behind him. Has he noticed that a silent protest is taking place today, in that Conservative Ministers have not come to support him on the Front Bench? There are 10 Ministers here who are not Whips, and only three of them are not Liberal Democrats.
The hon. Gentleman made a similar head count yesterday. His forensic fascinations, first with the early death of the Prime Minister and now with exactly who is on the Front Bench, continue to fascinate me. I am waiting with bated breath to see what his next rather peculiar fascination will be.
T11. Will the Deputy Prime Minister extend his commendable enthusiasm to trusting the people and extending democracy by giving our people a right that is enjoyed in almost every other free country in the world—that is, will he allow them to vote on whether Charles, William or A. N. Other should be our next Head of State? (115872)
I am struggling enough simply to make the case for what I see as the plain vanilla, common-sense proposition that the people in the other place who make the laws of the land should be elected by those who have to obey the laws of the land. I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman’s proposition, but let us focus on the argument on the other place right now, as it has not yet been fully won.
Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that the Government’s apprenticeship programme, which offers a brilliant alternative to the strictures of academia for many people, could provide a fantastic boost for social mobility in Britain?
I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. The apprenticeship programme is one of the things that Government Members should be proudest of. We are expanding opportunities for young people through increased apprenticeships on a scale never before seen in the post-war period, and we will be delivering 250,000 more apprenticeships than were planned by Labour. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that, for those who do not think that an academic qualification at university is the best route when they leave school or college, apprenticeships are a great tried and tested way of giving them the opportunities that have been denied to them for so long.
T12. Wrexham Remploy workers, whom the Deputy Prime Minister refused to meet in April this year, have been told at the final hour that their jobs have been taken away from them. Will he now meet those people whom he wants to put on the dole even though a private investment company has offered to keep them in work? The Government, and the Deputy Prime Minister, have refused to let that happen. (115873)
As the hon. Gentleman might know, the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), will be making a statement on this matter straight after Deputy Prime Minister’s questions. He will also know that the recommendations on the reform of the Remploy factories across the country—
Perhaps he could just listen to the answer. Those recommendations were made not by Ministers or politicians; they were made by a number of authoritative figures who decided that segregation in the—
Order. The Deputy Prime Minister is contending with a great deal, about which I am sure he makes no complaint. I know that the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) wants an answer—that message is clear—but he must not keep ranting from a sedentary position. It is not statesmanlike, and ordinarily, I expect him to be statesmanlike.
Liz Sayce, the expert in question, said that the practice of effectively segregating people in one part of the labour market, away from everyone else, was not a sensible way of protecting their interests in the 21st century.
Many of my constituents have written to me to express their support for House of Lords reform, but many have also taken the opportunity to remind me of our need to reduce the cost of politics. Will the Deputy Prime Minister tell us whether the reforms will significantly increase the cost of politics?
In effect, when the reforms across Parliament are all said and done, they will be cost-neutral.
T13. In May, the Deputy Prime Minister obliged my Newcastle constituents to vote on mayors. In May last year, he obliged them to vote on the alternative vote system. In November, which is not usually a warm month in Newcastle, he is going to force them to vote on police commissioners. Why, then, will he not give them the right to vote on the most wide-ranging constitutional change that he is proposing? (115874)
I have sought to answer this question as best I can a number of times before. The hon. Lady cites police and crime commissioners, and she is right: the people will be able to elect them. I ask her quite simply: why is it okay to elect police and crime commissioners, but not to elect the people who shape the laws over which those police and crime commissioners have to preside?
Will my right hon. Friend join me in observing that there are four times as many members of the House of Lords over 90 as there are those under 40, and reflect on the fact that this rather implies that this Parliament as a whole does not represent younger people in particular? What measures can the Government take to involve younger people more in our democracy? In particular, will he look again at giving votes to 16 and 17-year-olds?
As my hon. Friend knows, I am very sympathetic to that cause, but it does not constitute part of the coalition agreement. As I have been saying exhaustively over the last 24 hours, it is important for all Members, particularly those of the two coalition parties, to fulfil the spirit and letter of that coalition agreement. On the issue of the interesting demographic profile of the House of Lords, it is not just one of age; it is also very striking that close to half the people in the House of Lords come from London and the south-east. What does that say about the geographical representativeness of one of our legislative Chambers? One of the great virtues of our reforms is that it will guarantee places to people from all the regions and nations of the United Kingdom.
If the programme motion on House of Lords reform is moved and lost, what effect will that have on the coalition?
I very much hope it will be won, as I think it would be inconsistent—this appears to be the position of the hon. Gentleman’s party—to vote in favour of the principle of reform but to deny this House the ability to deliver reform. That, in my view, would be a synthetic, skin-deep and cynical commitment to reform.
Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that the main dog’s breakfast around here is the financial inheritance left us by the Labour party? Is he as proud as I am of the fact that we have cut its deficit by a quarter since the election?
I strongly agree. During the heated exchanges on House of Lords reform, I think we forget that the central purpose of this Government is indeed to rescue, repair and reform the British economy, which has been so severely damaged by the Labour party.
The Deputy Prime Minister has said that the present House of Lords is a “flawed” institution. Having listened to the debate thus far, does he agree that many Members believe that the reforms he proposes could lead to a flawed institution?
I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman’s work in the Joint Committee. One thing I heard yesterday was a number of Members making allegations that the Bill has been a rushed or botched job, and that we have somehow invented it out of thin blue air. As distinguished Opposition Members rightly pointed out, this blueprint for reform owes as much, if not more, to the work of the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) and to Robin Cook’s commission on the future of House of Lords. In many respects, it is a carbon copy of the proposals for reform stretching back to 2008 and many years before that. Before we vote this evening, it is important to remember that this is not something simply invented by this coalition Government; it is very much something that draws on the inspiration and wisdom of many people and reformers who have gone before us.
The Attorney-General was asked—
Serious Fraud Office
1. What recent assessment he has made of the performance of the Serious Fraud Office. (115835)
8. What recent assessment he has made of the performance of the Serious Fraud Office. (115842)
Her Majesty’s Crown Prosecution Service inspectorate has been asked to carry out an inspection of the Serious Fraud Office. It is intended that the inspection should assist the new director, and it has been timed accordingly. In my superintendent’s role, I have regular meetings with the director and other senior officials.
The Attorney-General has said that he does not plan to publish the results of the current review into the operation of the Serious Fraud Office. Will he give his reasons for that and reconsider his current plan to keep us and the public in the dark on this issue?
It is not accurate to say that I have indicated that the report will not be published. The position is that such reports are not normally published, but due to the unusual and understandable level of interest, I think it important that as much as possible should be put into the public domain. I will make it my business to ensure that that happens. I should explain that the reason it may not be possible to publish all of it is that there have to be safeguards to prevent prejudice to ongoing investigations, but subject to that, I would wish to see the results made available.
Having spoken to my constituents at the weekend, I know that there is no doubt that they would have preferred a judge-led inquiry into the banks. During last Thursday’s debate, the Attorney-General told us that a quick inquiry would clash with ongoing criminal investigations by the Serious Fraud Office. What assurances can he give us that the Select Committee inquiry, which will be wrapped up by Christmas, will not create the very clash that he warned us about last week?
Provided that the Select Committee conducts its business in the best traditions of the way in which I would expect a Committee of this House to do so, any difficulties that may arise in relation to an ongoing criminal investigation ought to be surmountable, and indeed I made that clear during last week’s debate. The difficulty that I identified with part of the motion that had been tabled on behalf of the shadow Chancellor was that it was quite prescriptive in terms of what it wanted the judicial inquiry to do. I foresaw that that could cause particular extra problems.
Would the Attorney-General consider making arrangements to enable people to move in and out of the SFO on a more regular basis, so that the experience of working for the organisation could be more widely spread throughout the private sector?
To-ing and fro-ing between prosecutors and the private sector is always desirable. The SFO does a great deal of work in trying to recruit from the private sector, encouraging individuals to work there for a period and then return. That is a very good way of acquiring expertise, and I know that the current director will have it very much in mind.
In examining the wider performance of the SFO, will the Attorney-General consider the relationship that will exist between the role of the National Crime Agency and its economic crime unit and the activities of the SFO?
It is clear that there will be close co-operation between the SFO and the National Crime Agency and its economic crime command. However, in setting up the agency we gave careful consideration to whether there was any point in moving the SFO into it, and the conclusion reached was that the SFO’s work was so distinctive that it did not fit naturally into the agency’s work, and so important that it should be maintained as a separate entity.
The Americans spend massive amounts of money on prosecuting fraud. Indeed, the increase in their budget this year is more than the total amount that we spend on the SFO. On this side of the Atlantic, we are cutting our budget by 25%. No wonder the bankers laugh at us. Too many people in the City believe that the rules apply only to little people and not to them.
While we welcome the additional £3 million for the prosecution of LIBOR offences which was announced in the Financial Times and which has been hastily gathered from the crumbs that have fallen from the Treasury’s table, we ought to note that it amounts to only 5% of the Barclays LIBOR fine. Is it not too little too late? Will the Attorney-General take account of the call this week from the Leader of the Opposition for the establishment within the SFO of a properly funded, dedicated banking and financial crime unit, recruiting the best and headed by a high-profile prosecutor, so that those fraudulent, thieving bankers can be sent to prison like the common criminals they are?
As the hon. Lady will know, the SFO and its directors have indicated that they have initiated a criminal investigation. At no point during the time for which I have had superintendence has it been suggested to me by any director of the SFO that they were not able to take on a case that they considered that they should be able to take on because they did not have enough funds to do so.
What about LIBOR last summer?
What happened last summer was that the perfectly sensible decision was made that the Financial Services Authority should initiate its regulatory inquiry, and should liaise with the SFO while it was being carried out until the regulatory investigation was finished. When it was finished, the SFO considered the matter, and has initiated a criminal inquiry.
That said, I fully accept the hon. Lady’s point: it is possible that we could spend more money on the SFO. I should also point out, however, that within the totality of funding for prosecutorial functions in England and Wales, the level of funding for the SFO is similar to that which prevailed under the last Government—and it is not, of course, the only prosecutor of fraud.
I am sure that we are now much better informed, but anybody would think that these lawyers are paid by the word.
3. How many sentences he has asked the Court of Appeal to review because they appear to be unduly lenient since May 2010; and in what proportion of those cases the sentence was subsequently increased. (115837)
The Attorney-General’s Office records show that from 10 May 2010 to 6 July 2012 the Solicitor-General and I have referred the sentences of 188 offenders from 135 separate Crown Court cases to the Court of Appeal. One of those offenders’ sentences has yet to be considered. Of 187 individual sentences that have been considered since May 2010, the Court considered 87% to be unduly lenient and increased the sentences of 155—or 83%—of them. Annual statistics are published on my Department’s website, and the 2011 figures were published last week.
May I warmly congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend on taking forward these unduly lenient cases and making sure that proper sentences are handed out? However, can he tell us what remedial action is taken against the lily-livered, wet, soft, liberal judges who hand out these unduly lenient sentences in the first place to make sure that this does not happen again?
I am afraid that I do not entirely agree with my hon. Friend’s basic premise. Just to get the position in perspective, I should say that 95,795 sentences were passed in the Crown Court in 2011, and we had referred to us in that period some 377 requests to reconsider sentences. Many of those requests were in fact wrong, and the total number we referred reflects the sorts of cases that we identify where a mistake has been made. I have to say to him that I am afraid that in human affairs such mistakes will always be made, which is precisely why we have the mechanism we have got to try to ensure that they are corrected.
It would be odd for me to agree too often with the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) but, nevertheless, there is genuine public concern about levels of sentencing. It is certainly true, on one level, that too many people go to prison, but it is also a matter of fact that at any point in time there are cases that do trouble the public. A 71-year-old man being given a four-year prison sentence for sexually assaulting a very young child is not seen as the kind of punishment that the public would expect. Nobody wants overly harsh sentences, but we do want realistic sentences, so how do we assess the judges?
May I say to the hon. Gentleman that I can only do my job? I have a job, laid down by statute, to review cases where it is thought that the sentence may be unduly lenient, and if I think it is, I will refer it. The success rate that we have been enjoying seems to indicate that, broadly speaking, on most of the references we make the Court agrees with us. It is worth pointing out that there are sentencing guidelines, which lay down very clearly how a judge should go about sentencing. In some cases, although the public may be unhappy about a sentence, it may conform to those guidelines. If the lawyers who advise me and I consider that that is so, the case may not be suitable for a reference.
Serious Fraud Office
4. How many successful prosecutions for fraud were brought by the Serious Fraud Office in 2011. (115838)
Owing to their complexity, SFO cases rarely conclude in the same year in which the prosecution, still less the investigation, begins. In 2011, the SFO concluded 14 fraud cases and 28 defendants were convicted; a further seven bribery cases were brought to a successful conclusion.
With the SFO budget being cut by 25% over the course of this Parliament, what advantages does the Solicitor-General think the introduction of deferred prosecution agreements will bring, apart from plugging the financial hole in fraud investigations through plea bargains with corporate perpetrators?
Deferred prosecution agreements bring with them self-evident advantages: they will ensure that companies are brought to justice, through confession, through whistleblowing or through investigation; they will bring speed, as a resolution in these matters will be brought forward much more quickly—the average SFO case takes about three and a half years and costs about £1.5 million; they will bring compensation to victims; they will avoid collateral damage to innocent parties; and they will provide an additional weapon in the prosecutor’s armoury. I hope that the hon. Lady would welcome that.
Rules of Disclosure
5. What assessment he has made of the decision by the Crown Prosecution Service inspectorate to review the handling of disclosure in complex cases; and if he will make a statement. (115839)
The duty of disclosure is a key part of the criminal justice system and therefore Her Majesty’s Crown Prosecution Service inspectorate has plans to undertake specific work on disclosure. That includes both a focused review of the disclosure of sensitive material in cases involving sexual offences, which is planned for this autumn, and a joint inspection with Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary on complex cases, which is currently being scoped.
I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for his answer but I am concerned, as are the British Association of Psychotherapists and the Association of Women Barristers, that the way in which disclosure is sometimes handled in cases of rape and sexual assault affects pre-trial treatment decisions and inhibits victims from undertaking counselling. Will the Minister give me his assurance that those concerns will be addressed by Her Majesty’s Crown Prosecution Service inspectorate in the upcoming review that will, I understand, be announced in the next few weeks?
I can reassure my hon. Friend. The final scoping for the inspection is not yet complete but it will include examination of a significant number of sexual offences cases to ascertain whether the disclosure of medical records, including, where applicable, counselling notes, complies with the prosecution’s duty of disclosure and policy and the potential impact of any non-compliance. As I hope she will appreciate, although the other part of the disclosure inquiry is particularly about the problems that came out of the south Wales case of Lynette White, those two things are not mutually incompatible.
7. What steps he is taking to increase the rate of successful prosecutions in counter-terrorism cases. (115841)
The Crown Prosecution Service, police and security services work closely together to build a strong evidential case to enable those suspected of involvement in terrorism to be charged wherever possible with appropriate criminal offences. A post-case review is held after every prosecution and, where appropriate, lessons learned and good practice are used to improve future prospects of successful prosecution and conviction.
I thank the Attorney-General for that answer. According to Home Office data, convictions under terrorism legislation have fallen by 100% since 2006 while convictions for false accounting have fallen by 82% since 2004. Is it not time that we better armed our prosecutors with tools such as intercept evidence and greater use of plea bargaining so that we can take a more robust approach to disrupting and deterring joint criminal enterprises, whether they are terrorism or fraud in the banking sector?
I have had the opportunity to discuss this with the CPS and it is not thought that the processes we have require widespread reform. The CPS and the Security Service already work closely together from the earliest stages of an investigation, exploring options to strengthen the evidence and follow lines of investigation that lead to sufficient evidence on which to charge. Early formation of the prosecution team and collaborative working with international partners are regarded as essential in securing convictions. I have not seen the statistics to which my hon. Friend referred, but mercifully the number of prosecutions for terrorism-related offences is small and I would be just a little wary of trying to extrapolate a trend in view of the numbers of cases involved. For example, I know that in the early part of this year there were a number of notably successful prosecutions in that field.
I am slightly concerned about the whole question of terrorism at the moment, as points are being raised by residents of parts of London about missile batteries on the roof and so on. Has anything crossed the Attorney-General’s desk about the legal implications of that or about cases being taken to court?
I am not quite sure how best to answer the hon. Gentleman’s question. The Crown Prosecution Service is a demand-driven organisation. As and when its services are called on, it will do the work to help the police with investigations. That is what it does day in, day out and what it will certainly continue to do over the course of the Olympics.
Prosecutions (Olympics and Paralympics)
9. What progress he has made on introducing fast-tracked prosecutions during the London 2012 Olympics and Paralympics. (115843)
The arrangements for fast-track prosecutions during the Olympics and Paralympics are in place and they have been agreed by the courts, the Crown Prosecution Service, the police and representatives of defence lawyers in London. Olympic offences originating from the hon. Lady’s part of London will be dealt with at Thames magistrates court and Snaresbrook Crown court, with priority cases being dealt with at Highbury Corner magistrate’s court.
The Crown Prosecution Service has been quoted by the media as saying that offences classified as “Olympic offences” will be fast-tracked through the courts during the Olympic and Paralympic games. Will the Solicitor-General explain what is meant by an “Olympic offence”, and does he think that it is right that Crown and magistrates courts near Olympic venues or traffic hubs should close or reduce their sittings during the games?
I think the media are quoting a letter shown to them by the shadow Attorney-General—
The hon. Lady has not seen it either. We are both in the dark, that is wonderful—[Interruption.] The shadow Attorney-General does not know anything, apparently. Let me enlighten her—[Interruption.] She is obviously in a hurry to learn.
The criminal justice system Olympics working group has adopted the following definition of an Olympic offence:
“any offence…committed and charged in the period 1st July to 30th September 2012, and is…stated by any Court to be directly connected to the 2012 Olympic or Paralympics Games”.
It is a definition of a type of crime, not a new offence.
When fast-track courts were used following the riots, there was a feeling among magistrates that district judges had been used extensively and the lay magistracy had not been used as much as it could have been. Will that happen in Olympic cases, or is the Solicitor-General looking carefully at this?
I am sorry, but I found it quite difficult to hear my right hon. Friend, but in so far as I heard his question, the courts will be manned by all appropriate judges. At the Crown court, clearly there will be Crown court judges; in magistrates courts, district judges will be deployed and, where appropriate, justices of the peace will sit in banks of three.
Specialist Disability Employment
With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on Remploy.
I am sure that hon. Members agree that Remploy employees must be first and foremost in our minds today. That is why they have been notified first of the decisions of the Remploy board, in advance of this statement.
In her independent review, published last year, disability expert Liz Sayce made it clear that segregated employment is not consistent with equality for disabled people. The Sayce review sets out that money should support individual disabled people, not segregated institutions; it also recommends that Remploy factories should be set free from Government control. It cannot be right that the Government continue to subsidise segregated employment, which can lead to the isolation of disabled people. It is no alternative to promoting and supporting disabled people in mainstream jobs, the same as everyone else. I have been absolutely clear that the £320 million budget for disability employment services has been protected, but by spending it more effectively we can get thousands more disabled people into work. It is important that the money is spent in a way that is consistent with what disabled people want, consistent with this Government's commitment to disability equality, and consistent with helping more disabled people to live an independent life.
When Labour put in place the Remploy modernisation plan in 2008, they started a process, with £555 million provided to put the factories on to a proper financial footing. The right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), who I see is in his place, told the House in 2007:
“The reality is that without modernisation Remploy deficits would obliterate our other programmes to help disabled people into mainstream work.”—[Official Report, 29 November 2007; Vol. 468, c. 448.]
As a result of those decisions, 29 factories were closed as part of that process. What is clear to us now is that the performance targets and the modernisation plan were not realistic, the reduction in costs could not be achieved, and the modernisation plan has failed.
In 2010-11, factories made losses of almost £70 million; that is money that could and should have been used to support thousands more disabled people into work. That is why the Government took the decision in March to implement Liz Sayce’s recommendations that we stop funding Remploy factories that have been losing millions of pounds, year after year, but we are committing to doing everything possible to minimise the number of redundancies.
Today I can inform the House that the Remploy board has considered in detail 65 proposals to take factories out of Government control as part of a commercial process. Those proposals have been scrutinised by a panel, independent of Remploy, established by the Department. The Remploy board and the Government have done all we can to support bids and safeguard jobs. That includes providing a wage subsidy of £6,400 for disabled members of staff, and a professional advice and support package worth up to £10,000 for each employee-led bid. On that basis, nine sites have had business plans accepted and will now move forward to the “best and final offer” stage, at which detailed bids will be considered. Back in 2008, when the then Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne)—I do not see him here today—started the modernisation process and closed 29 factories, there was no such offer. No factories were given the opportunity to continue outside of Government control; that is something that we wanted to change.
Remploy is hopeful that current negotiations may lead to the transfer of business and, importantly, the retention of jobs. That currently means that 27 Remploy sites will no longer operate. Details of those sites will be placed in the House of Commons Library, so that all hon. Members can see them; they will be able to get those details, and consider them fully. [Interruption.]
Order. There is a statement. There will be plenty of opportunity for Members to ask questions, and they can rely on me to protect their rights, but at this stage, the Minister must have her statement heard.
Remploy employees have been informed of the board’s decision this afternoon. The Remploy board will now move into a period of individual consultation with Remploy employees. Undoubtedly, for those employees who have been told that their factories are closing, this is difficult news, but let me make one point absolutely clear: we are doing everything we can to ensure that Remploy workers who are affected will receive a comprehensive package of support and guidance to make the transition from Government-funded sheltered employment to mainstream jobs. [Interruption.]
Order. We now face the unenviable situation of having an exchange across the Chamber. Mr Heaton-Harris, calm yourself. If you wish to give vent to your views, behave like the good man you can, at your best, be, and you might succeed in catching the eye of the Chair. If you are not able to do that, you might find it more difficult.
We have put in place £8 million to guarantee tailored support for up to 18 months for every single disabled person affected by the announcement today. That includes a personal case worker to help individuals with their future choices, and access to a personal budget for additional support. We are using the expertise of Remploy employment services, which, despite the difficult economic times that we are in, has, over the last two years, found jobs for 35,000 disabled and disadvantaged people, many with similar disabilities to those that people working in Remploy factories have. We are also working with the Employers Forum on Disability to offer targeted work opportunities for disabled people through “first shot”, including guaranteed interviews, job trials, work experience and training. We have set up a community support fund to provide grants to local voluntary sector and user-led organisations, and we have protected the budget for specialist disability employment services, which is £320 million, on average, for every year of the spending review period. What is more, we have added to that: we have added £15 million specifically to Access to Work, which means that 8,000 more disabled people can be supported into work as a result of today’s announcement.
This is an ongoing process that will continue over the summer recess. I commit to keeping right hon. and hon. Members updated on the status of the business plans that are going through to the next stage. I will provide a further update on progress when the House returns in September.
Our approach has been led by disabled people and disabled people’s organisations. Many of them have welcomed the move to end the pre-war practice of employment segregation, and it should be welcomed in all parts of the House and by all hon. Members who believe in equality for disabled people. By spending these protected Government funds more effectively, we can support thousands more of our constituents into work. What is more, we can spend the money in a way that fits the needs and aspirations of disabled people in the 21st century, promoting disability equality and supporting disabled people to lead full and independent lives.
I thank the Minister for advance warning of her statement and indeed an advance copy of it.
I am somewhat surprised, however, that the Minister failed to identify the factories where there are no agreed business plans. With your indulgence, Mr Speaker, I shall quickly run through them: Acton, Ashington, Barking, Birkenhead, Bolton, Cleator Moor, Gateshead, Leeds, Leicester, Manchester, Newcastle, North London, North Staffs, Oldham, Penzance, Pontefract, Preston, Southampton, Spennymoor, Wigan, Worksop and Boston Spa; in Scotland, Wishaw; and in Wales, Aberdare, Abertillery, Merthyr Tydfill, Swansea and Wrexham. Other staff at risk include modernisation staff. It is disappointing that the Minister did not put that on the record.
May I try to lay to rest the issue of segregated employment? As the Minister and many others in the House are aware, there are strong views about so-called segregated employment, but many people who work in Remploy factories, and in other supported businesses throughout the UK, do not see themselves as segregated. They see themselves as exercising the same choice as non-disabled people have when they choose employment. We need to get away from the split between segregated and so-called non-segregated employment. I hope that the Minister will take that on board.
May I ask the Minister one or two questions about her statement? Why does she continue to declare that she is implementing the Sayce review, when Liz Sayce stated:
“Employees and management of Enterprise Businesses should be given a sufficient window (for instance, six months) to put forward a business plan to this expert panel setting out how the business will become viable without Government subsidy”?
That refers to six months. What we have had is a 90-day window to implement a closure programme. I am astonished that the Minister continues to use Liz Sayce’s report as some sort of human shield to disguise what she is doing.
The scale of the closures announced today vincidates Liz Sayce’s view that if only nine factories have been able to put together a business proposal in that 90 days, her six-month window would have given a far greater opportunity to some of the other factories to access such business expertise. The Minister made great play of the £10,000 for business advice for employee-led bids. Those involved would be hard pushed to get business consultancies for £10,000 to put together a business plan for some of the factories.
The time frame for closure does not take into account the challenge of winding up businesses and supporting people, many of whom have complex disabilities. Why has the Minister also decided to renege on the agreement made with those in the so-called modernisation group? There was an agreement with former employees that was supported in all parts of the House when the modernisation programme was announced, and many will be disappointed, if not surprised, that what was supported in opposition has been abandoned in government.
Will the Minister clarify the position of the Remploy pension scheme and how the Government will honour their responsibilities to that scheme? Given that the Government’s Work programme is missing its target for disabled workers by 75%, what new support is the Minister putting in place to support Remploy workers who will lose their jobs?
Frankly, there are times when I wonder whether the Secretary of State understands any of Remploy’s arguments as he sits and sniggers when he is not making disparaging comments about disabled workers.
Can the Minister distance herself from the harsh economic climate in which we find ourselves? Even if she is minded to make this decision, doing so in the current economic climate makes it look as if she is abandoning her duty of care to disabled employees who have given many years of service to a company that the Government own—a company that this country owns.
The Minister mentioned the Access to Work programme. She might wish to remind the House that Access to Work numbers are plummeting under this Government—[Interruption.] Well, the DWP figures seem to indicate that the Access to Work uptake has not been as good as she sometimes indicates to the House. In 2007, when my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) announced the modernisation programme, the now Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), said:
“Let me assure Remploy and its employees that the next Conservative Government will continue the process of identifying additional potential procurement opportunities for them and the public sector work force.”—[Official Report, 29 November 2007; Vol. 468, c. 451.]
Where is that Minister now, and what action has he taken in government to fulfil the promise he so glibly gave in opposition?
Finally, there is a programme that the Government have paraded around, telling us how wonderful it is: the regional growth fund. The National Audit Office has said that jobs created by the regional growth fund cost the taxpayer between £4,000 and £200,000. It has also said that 90% of the jobs could have been delivered at a cost of £26,000 a job, which is slightly more than the subsidy for Remploy workers and those losing their jobs today.
I do not disagree with the Minister that this is a difficult decision—many Opposition Members have been through some of these issues before—but I charge her, in a situation in which tens of people are chasing every job in some of the constituencies where Remploy factories are closing, with having abrogated her responsibility to disabled workers who have given a lifetime of service to Remploy.
The right hon. Lady has very strong views on this matter, but perhaps I could ask her to consider the views of disabled people. Let me bring to the House’s attention a quote from Disability Wales, an organisation whose views many hon. Members on both sides of the House might value:
“Disability Wales… does not see Remploy as either progressive or forward thinking in their approaches to service provision. Although they may once have been seen as providing opportunities for disabled people, they are now standing in the way of full integration and indirectly hampering individuals’ chances of progression.”
I am afraid that that is what the people of Wales feel, and that reflects what many other organisations that represent disabled people in this country feel.
The right hon. Lady talked about the important issue of jobs, but I really wish that she would check her facts before coming to the House. If she were to do so, she would see that Access to Work is actually spending more money than ever before in supporting disabled people across the country. Yes, there is more that we can do, and that we are doing, because what we inherited was what Liz Sayce called the best secret in government. We are going out and marketing Access to Work actively to make sure that more people can use it to get into work. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) says from a sedentary position, “You have to get a job”, and she is absolutely right. The individuals affected by today’s announcements live in areas where Remploy’s employment services arm has actually helped 10,500 disabled people into work over the past year alone, and indeed 35,000 over the past two years. She might be happy about having disabled people shut away in segregated factories but I am not, so on that we will have to disagree.
The modernisation plan is four years into its five-year process, and what is clear to us is that at least we are able potentially to take out of Government control some of the factories that have been subject to the initial phase 1 stage, which were judged by our independent advisers not to be financially viable. We still have to look at phase 2 factories—some 18 of them—that are judged to have more chance of financial viability, and I look forward to bringing hon. Members up to date on our progress with that in the summer.
On the pensions scheme, I reassure the right hon. Lady that we will protect in full all the accrued rights of participating members. As to the modernisation group, I also assure her that we are having ongoing conversations about how we can help to ensure that some of the people involved are not affected by redundancy. Perhaps I can talk to her in detail about that at a more appropriate time.
Order. There is extensive interest in this very important subject, but there is also enormous interest in the second day of the Second Reading debate on the House of Lords Reform Bill, which I am inclined to accommodate, so I shall try to get in as many as I can now, but I need short questions and short answers.
I welcome the Minister’s statement and, in particular, the emphasis on Access to Work, especially for those with mental health disabilities, in which I am specifically interested. Will she say a little more about how Access to Work is helping those with mental health problems to have fulfilling jobs?
My hon. Friend takes a great interest in the area and will be pleased to know that we are doing more to market Access to Work to people who have learning disabilities or mental health problems. Access to Work is an excellent scheme, but even more people with mental health problems need to participate in it, and we have an active marketing programme behind achieving that.
Has the hon. Lady any idea how arrogant and out of touch she sounds this afternoon? This is a shameless betrayal of thousands of disabled workers who have been in sheltered employment—not segregated employment, but sheltered employment—all their lives and will never find jobs when there are no jobs to be had in areas such as mine, where 10 people are chasing every job vacancy. How can she so cynically misrepresent the modernisation plan that I announced at the end of 2007—£555 million, dependent on Government-supported procurement and public sector-backed job opportunities? None of that has been put in place. It has not failed; it has not been allowed to succeed by this out-of-touch Government.
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for coming in for today’s statement and for being able to participate in the statement process, because he more than anybody knows the very real dilemma that was faced under the previous Administration with Remploy, and I pay tribute to the work that he did to try to give Remploy an opportunity to get back on its feet. He will know that there are more than 12,000 disabled people in his constituency, and the Neath furniture factory will continue through the summer process, which I am sure he welcomes. I hope that he would want to ensure that more of those 12,000 people receive the sort of support that I know he feels can work.
Will the Minister, for absolute clarity, confirm two things: first, that every single penny spent will go to help disabled people into mainstream employment; and, secondly, that it will be in addition to any money provided by the Work programme also to help disabled people into employment?
I am pleased to confirm to my hon. Friend that we have a £320 million protected budget; that as we move forward, I want to see all that money supporting people into mainstream employment—into all the same jobs that any of us would want to take up outside this place; and that this money is in addition to any finances that are available for the Work programme.
For the last 16 Saturday mornings, Remploy workers in Wrexham have been out campaigning to keep their factory open. I cannot explain why the private sector bid in connection with the factory has been rejected. If the Minister believes in the policy, will she come and meet the Wrexham Remploy workers and explain it? She should be ashamed of the statement that she has made today, and to say that the people of Wales support it is a lie.
Order. I must ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw any suggestion that the Minister has lied to the House. I am sure he would want to withdraw that suggestion.
I withdraw that suggestion entirely, Mr Speaker, and I would like to apologise to the Minister.
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman.
I very much admire the vigorous way in which the hon. Gentleman has supported his local factory. Having met him and spoken to him at great length, I know that he is simply trying to stand up for his constituents, and I respect that. I have to say to him, though, that the bid that was put forward on that factory has been considered by commercial experts. I am not a commercial expert. Remploy directors and an independent board have been looking at the bid, so it would not be appropriate for me to discuss it with his constituents. I gently remind him that while we have here a difficult decision for the 40 people who work at the Wrexham factory, he must also consider the 7,400 disabled people who live in his constituency and who will benefit greatly from the way in which we are taking this programme forward.
Will the Minister join me in wishing Giles Verdon and his team at the Alder Hills Remploy site in my constituency well as they develop their business plan to move from being a state enterprise to a social private enterprise? Without asking her to enter into an open-ended commitment, may I ask her whether there would be any flexibility if some of these sites need a little more time than has been set out today?
Of course, I echo the comments that my hon. Friend has made. With regard to the timing of the next stage of this process, it is very important that we use the time that we have available. To confirm and clarify the timing of the bids process, it will have been some five and a half months for those going through to the second stage of the bid round. We will take the time that is needed to make sure that bidders get the information that they need and the access to the support that is there for them to make sure that as many of the bids as possible are as successful as they can be.
Thousands of disabled people will be heading home tonight certain of one thing, and that is a lifetime of unemployment. What advice would the Minister give to those individuals and their families with regard to employment in future? Is she not absolutely ashamed that this despicable, cruel act has happened on her watch?
I can absolutely understand that hon. Members are speaking with a great deal of passion, because this is a very important issue that affects some of the most vulnerable people in our constituencies. However, I gently remind the hon. Gentleman that if we are truly going to be people who stick up for disability equality and for disabled people in this country, who number some 6.9 million, then these are the changes that we need to make and that disabled people and disabled people’s organisations have called for. The previous Government were fully aware of that. The modernisation plan has not done what was required, and we are now taking that money and making it work harder for disabled people.
Royal British Legion Industries, which is based in Aylesford, employs many disabled people in its factories. We must be very mindful in this place that whenever politicians make an announcement about disability employment, it can be incredibly frightening. Will the Minister therefore reassure my constituents that this Government will do all they can to continue to provide good-quality employment for disabled people?
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to remind us all that what we say here can cause a great deal of fear and concern among the people we represent. Therefore, at all points in time, we should stick to the facts. In this case, the facts are that the £350 million budget for specialist employment support is being protected and that today’s announcement will mean that more than 8,000 extra disabled people will be able to be supported. She speaks with a great deal of knowledge in this respect. The organisation that she mentions has also been involved in the Work programme, which is also there to support disabled people.
When Margaret Thatcher was Schools Secretary she was known as “Margaret Thatcher, Milk Snatcher”. You, Minister, are now known as “Maria Miller, Remploy Killer”. Are you proud of that?
I am sorry, but that is exactly the sort of statement that this House should not look kindly on. The right hon. Lady knows, because she has been in this place for a lot longer than I have, that we should choose our words carefully because people listen carefully to what we say. The 13,600 disabled people in her constituency will be asking why she is not more supportive of a Government who are ensuring that there is £15 million extra to support them, as well as ensuring that the 37 people in the factory in her constituency receive the support that they need to go forward into mainstream employment.
Surely the test is what support we can all give to disabled people to help them get back into the world of work, irrespective of where they live. As far as I am aware, there is not and never has been a Remploy facility in Oxfordshire or anywhere in the Thames valley. Will my hon. Friend confirm that she will do everything she can to ensure that the Access to Work programme gains the maximum possible synergy with the many work clubs and job clubs up and down the country, so that any disabled person who goes to such a club will know about the programme and how to get into it?
I commend my hon. Friend for taking the kind of attitude that other hon. Members should take on this issue. He rightly points out that many parts of this country, not least as a result of the actions of the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), do not have access to a Remploy factory. We need to ensure that no postcode lottery appears. I am sure that my hon. Friend will be pleased to know that in the south-east—I think his constituency will fall into this area—almost 4,000 people have been helped through the Access to Work programme already, with some £10 million of expenditure. Through the measures that I have announced today, we will ensure that more people are helped.
Shamefully, the Minister did not even take the time to read out the list of the closed factories. Had she done so, she would have noticed that the list includes Motherwell Remploy, which has not existed for 11 years. How is that dealing with fact?
The hon. Gentleman will know that a list of the factories that are affected is attached to copies of the statement. I am sure that Mr Speaker, who I know wants to make progress, would not have thought that reading out a list of factories was the right thing to do.
Does the Minister agree that young disabled people have higher aspirations than to spend 40 years of their working lives in segregated employment, shut off from society, being sheltered—what a ghastly, offensive phrase that is. Segregated employment has no role in today’s society. What we want is equality of employment rights.
I could not have put it better myself.
I appreciate the Minister’s courtesy. What she says is, of course, a matter for her. I should just make it clear to the House and to those attending to our proceedings that the content of the statement is entirely a matter for the Minister. Whether she chooses to provide a list or not is her prerogative. I respect the sincerity with which she addressed the House.
Last year, many of my constituents, in their supported environment at North Staffs Remploy, put in for voluntary redundancy because they could see the writing on the wall. They were turned down because, it was said, they were key workers. They now find that they will get just statutory redundancy, rather than the enhanced money that was available last year. Does the Minister think that that is fair and right? Perhaps she would like to come to my Remploy and talk to the workers, such as Steve and others, who will have night after night of sleepless nights because there are no jobs for them in Stoke-on-Trent. They will not be able to sleep at night—will she?
Again, I understand the strength of feeling; the hon. Gentleman is trying to ensure that the people in his constituency are supported in the way that they need to be. I gently remind him that the estimated average redundancy of somebody in a Remploy factory will be about £19,000, which is more than double the average that would be received under the statutory scheme. It is important that people get the right level of support, so we are making £8 million available to support individuals into mainstream employment. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman asks what jobs are available. I remind him of the many hundreds of jobs that the employment services have found for disabled people in his constituency.
When the Select Committee looked into Remploy, we took evidence from union bosses who had enlisted some of the people in the factories. Does the Minister think they have helped the difficult situation by giving leaflets to employees saying, “If you lose your job, you will lose your humanity”?
I commend the work of the Select Committee in highlighting that. I agree that it is unfortunate, but I do not know whether it is surprising. It is certainly saddening to hear of a trade union taking such action. I have to say, I have had a number of constructive meetings with the unions over recent months. I would point out also that it is estimated that as a result of our redirecting funding to Access to Work, an additional £200 million of value will be realised from the specialist disability employment programme. Perhaps the Committee might want to examine that.
What consideration has the Minister given to the role of the specialist training colleges? Will she guarantee to support them so that they might endeavour to help clear up the current situation and help people who need support?
I confirm that I met the specialist disability training colleges some three weeks ago and have further extended the contracts available to them to provide specialist support. They will have an important role, and we are working with them to ensure that we define that role carefully so that it meets the needs of disabled people.
Those working in the Remploy factory in Acton will obviously be disappointed by today’s news. Can my hon. Friend provide some reassurance that they will get full support as they lose their jobs, and will she give us some details of the timetable for that support?
Both the Secretary of State and I have visited the Acton factory in my hon. Friend’s constituency, and I know that this will be a difficult time for the 31 people who work there. I can confirm that we are already ensuring that a tailored package of support is in place for each individual who is affected. It is important, however, to acknowledge that that factory, like the others that we are discussing, has sizeable operating losses—more than £700,000-worth last year. I am sure she will agree that we could use that money better to support more disabled people into work.
Does the Minister not appreciate that she is, in effect, setting off one group of disabled people against another? Surely it is not necessary to have some people lose the jobs that have given them so much in their lives in order to help other disabled people. We should think of much better ways of doing that.
I simply do not accept the hon. Lady’s premise. Through the work that we are doing today, we will support thousands more disabled people into work. If she were to examine the consultation responses that we received, she would see that the overwhelming majority of disabled people and disabled people’s organisations thoroughly support our measures.
I strongly support my hon. Friend’s statement. Is it not the case that for every person working in a Remploy factory, we could support eight disabled people to take up and retain a mainstream job for the same amount of money? Surely that is the right way forward.
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In these difficult economic times, we have to ensure that the protected £320 million works better for disabled people in this country.
This is a sad day for the staff at Wythenshawe Remploy, who have fought hard for the past five years to keep their factory open. They have become more efficient and increased their sales. My deep regret is that the Minister has failed to identify the £250,000 of additional print work that would have enabled that factory to break even and stay in business. How will she track the 1,421 people whom she is making redundant today, and will she commit to making a monthly report to Parliament about how many of them find alternative employment?
I had a meeting with the right hon. Gentleman and I know that he comes to the debate with genuine concern about his constituents. He will know that the financial situation of the factory in Wythenshawe was such that it was not possible for a valid financial case to be made even with the sort of extra business he mentioned—there were operating losses of more than £300,000 and 19 disabled people employed in the factory.
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, however, that this will be unlike the previous round of redundancies, under which there was insufficient tracking in place. When it came to it, we simply did not know how many people moved into employment, although we know that many affected by the previous round retired. We have learned from that mistake. With the permission of the people affected, we will put in place a comprehensive system of tracking. I will undertake to ensure that hon. Members get appropriately regular updates on progress.
For Government plans to provide and retain employment opportunities for people with disabilities to succeed, benefits will need to be flexible. We will also need to recognise that costs for people with disabilities can go up as their independence increases, and that costs vary according to the technological support they need. Will the Minister guarantee that benefits will be flexible in that way?
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that disabled people have extra costs of living and extra costs for working. We are committed to reforming the disability living allowance into the personal independence payment, to ensure that we continue to recognise those costs, but in a more targeted way. We are also putting £15 million extra into Access to Work to provide the sort of flexibility he describes.
I have a number of concerns about the bidding process for the Remploy sites under threat of closure, but will the Minister confirm that the assessment panel was given only three days over a weekend to consider all 65 bids? Does she consider that extraordinarily short time scale to be sufficient for proper scrutiny of those bids?
What I know is that proper scrutiny has taken place, and that we need to ensure the programme makes good progress so that we can ensure that the people affected are informed in a timely manner.
Does my hon. Friend agree that getting young people with special needs into work in front-line jobs is vital? Will she join me in congratulating another employer that yesterday came on board with the project to get young people into work in my area?
I am glad to commend my hon. Friend’s work and I am looking forward to visiting the project in his constituency. He highlights the importance of supporting young disabled people into employment. I was pleased in the past couple of weeks to announce that Access to Work will also be available in future to young people undertaking work experience.
Workers at the Remploy factory in Chesterfield will be relieved to know that there is a glimmer of light—the site is one of those invited to make a bid. On that note, will bids be accepted from organisations that no longer have a policy of disabled people first? Will disabled people still be prioritised in bids from such organisations?
In evaluating the bids that will be taken forward, our first priority is to ensure that the bids that protect most jobs for most disabled people are given priority.
Will the Minister reassure me that personal caseworkers will have the resources to tailor a place of work when assisting a disabled person to find work, so that they help the person as much as possible? Will she also assure me that those resources will be available at the point of delivery?
My hon. Friend is right to focus on the support package we are putting in place to ensure that people affected by today’s announcement get all the help they need to get into mainstream employment. That will be in the form of both a personal budget, which can give the flexibility to ensure that training is put in place for individuals, and access to any of the mainstream programmes that the Government run, including Work Choice, the Work programme and Access to Work.
The union convener at Croespenmaen Remploy factory, Ian Lloyd, has been told that Croespenmaen might have a buyer but will not find out until September. As the Minister might be aware, this gives the workers there some hope. Will she guarantee, first, that they are not being led up the garden path and, secondly, that they will have all the support in place at the moment?
I was pleased to have a meeting with the hon. Gentleman, who has been a doughty advocate for his factory and constituency, and obviously it is good that we will be moving forward with the bid. We will work hard to do everything we can to make bids successful, but obviously they have to be commercially viable and provide jobs for disabled people. Those are our priorities.
My apologies, Mr Speaker, for the tiny burst of excitement earlier.
Will my hon. Friend remind me how many factories were closed down by the last Labour Government and what support package they put in place to help workers made redundant in 2008?
My hon. Friend will know that 29 factories were closed under the previous Administration, and it was an error not to put more support in place for people affected. I am sure, if Labour did it again, it would do things differently, because it became apparent very early on that, of the 1,611 disabled people who left factories as a result of the modernisation redundancy programme, very few got into work. However, given the package that we have put in place today and the record of Remploy employment services over the past two years—they have helped 35,000 disabled people to get into work—we are living under a very different set of arrangements.
The Minister referred to this as a difficult decision, but for the Remploy workers watching this debate it is a tragic decision. She has just mentioned the numbers who left work last time who have never been employed since. How many can she guarantee will be in secure employment in 12 months’ time?
I can guarantee that by using the money differently we can help more disabled people into work. As a result of today’s measure, some 8,000 disabled people can get into work who would not have had that support otherwise.
The Penzance Remploy factory in my constituency has contributed not to segregation but to an integrated spectrum of employment opportunities for disabled people, and today’s news will come as a bitter disappointment, especially in view of the fact that it has worked tirelessly with the local college and the Brandon Trust to find an alternative model. I do not know whether the Minister indicated that the door was still open on some of those listed among the 27 today, but would she be prepared to meet me and representatives from my constituency to explore alternatives to today’s announcement?
My hon. Friend obviously speaks up strongly for the Penzance factory, which employs 32 disabled people, but the problem is that in employing them the factory runs an operating loss of more than £700,000 a year. It is unfortunately difficult to resolve that situation and achieve financial stability, however, and, although I am always available to meet him, I am not sure how satisfactory the outcome of such a meeting would be for him.
I have visited the Remploy factory in my constituency so often that I am almost on first-name terms with most of the work force, and I can assure the Minister that they do not regard themselves as a segregated work force. There seem to be two lists—one of factories with no agreed business plan and one of those inviting bids—but Dundee’s factory does not appear on either. What does the future hold for the Remploy factory in Dundee?
The Remploy factory in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency will be taken forward; I am not sure why that is not on his list.
Our thoughts today must be with the 1,400 Remploy workers losing their jobs and facing probably a lifetime of redundancy. Of course, I am delighted that my factory in Aberdeen is going forward, which is a tribute to staff and management at the Aberdeen factory. It has been achieved, however, in spite of Remploy management’s failure to provide any useful information that would have allowed for any financial planning or even to talk about taking forward social enterprises. I hope that the Minister will ensure that in the second phase these things will be a key part of the process.
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. As for the factory in his constituency, I spoke to the Scottish Government this morning. They are keen to try to continue with their support, as they have been working with us throughout the process. We will of course take forward any lessons from the first stage of factories into the second stage, but I think the process has been handled well and thoughtfully, and with the right level of professionalism.
The Spennymoor Remploy factory is not in my constituency, but it is just a mile over the border and it employs severely disabled people from the Crook and Willington area of my constituency. Is the Minister seriously telling me that severely disabled people—three members of the same family in one case—will get alternative employment in a constituency where unemployment has more than doubled since this Government came to power?
The hon. Lady obviously wants to ensure that people in her constituency are well provided for, and I hope that she will be reassured by the comments I have made today about the employee support plan and the £8 million that the Government have put in place. Spennymoor is not in her constituency, but she will know that in the constituency of Bishop Auckland, where it is located, there are more than 13,000 disabled people, compared with the 40 disabled people who work in the factory. We have to work together to ensure that more disabled people are supported into work. We know that more than 500 disabled people in the area were supported into mainstream work by Remploy employment services in the last year alone. The jobs are there if people get the right support.
The Edinburgh Remploy plant employs a number of people in my constituency. Obviously I am pleased that it is one for which bids are to be invited in the next stage of the process. Can the Minister give an indication of the time scale by which the process is to be completed, so that people can have some certainty about whether they will be in continued employment?
To reiterate what I said earlier, through the summer process the bids being taken forward will be able to gather more of the detailed, commercially sensitive information that they require to be able to make a full and final offer. That process will be completed around the beginning of September, and I would of course be happy to keep hon. Members updated if they have an interest outside their constituencies.