House of Commons
Wednesday 16 October 2024
The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock
Prayers
[Mr Speaker in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions
Science, Innovation and Technology
The Secretary of State was asked—
Broadband Connectivity
More than 85% of UK premises can now access a gigabit-capable broadband connection. Through Project Gigabit, more than a dozen suppliers are delivering contracts to bring fast, reliable broadband to more than 1 million more homes and businesses across the country. My team are making good progress and pushing forward with further plans to improve digital connectivity in hard-to-reach communities that would otherwise be missing out.
Access to reliable broadband is essential to residents across my constituency, but for those who fall just outside commercial full-fibre broadband deployment areas, it remains a real issue that impacts their ability to work and study. What further action can the Government take to ensure that residents falling just outside current roll-out areas are not left behind?
My hon. Friend is a good advocate for her new constituency. I want everyone to understand that this new Department is not far removed from people’s lives, because we represent areas of technology all the way from space to digital infrastructure. We realise that every aspect of the Department’s work is connected to human beings trying to move forward and get on in life, and nowhere is that more important than in their ability to express their lives online. I can reassure her that we are ensuring that the market for digital provision is a functioning market that delivers for her constituents. In areas where the market is not as full as we would like, market providers need to work together, to ensure that all residents across her constituency have the connectivity they deserve.
My constituents in Throwley and Wichling have been battling for high-speed broadband. We thought we had it over the line, but in a recent telephone conversation Building Digital UK said that it was still to be confirmed. Would the Secretary of State be willing to meet me to discuss how we can ensure that those communities do not miss out again?
Go on!
I can hear encouraging sounds from the hon. Lady’s colleagues asking for that meeting. Let me say at the outset that this Department wants to engage with everyone—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] I haven’t finished yet. We want to ensure that everyone in every constituency has full access to the connectivity that they need. With that in mind, the Minister responsible for the roll-out of these services will meet officials to ensure that the hon. Lady is given the attention that her constituents deserve.
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
People and businesses in my constituency, like many elsewhere, are plagued with patchy access. Andy from Wheathampstead has found that the only way he can move on to working from home and running a business is to have expensive satellite broadband. Will the Secretary of State commit to ensuring that every home and business has access to gigabit broadband in rural and remote communities, and will he also ensure that there are bespoke solutions so that no home or business is left out?
Our manifesto commitment is to get to 99% coverage by 2030, and that is something we are determined to do. The programme run by BDUK for shared rural networks is technology-neutral. Along with the Minister responsible, I am encouraging BDUK as fulsomely as I can to ensure that every single technology emerging, as well as existing, is put to good use in that endeavour.
Life Sciences: Stevenage
My hon. Friend takes every opportunity to raise this subject. He will be happy to learn that the Government have a clear plan for supporting the life sciences sector, as set out in our life sciences plan. Stevenage has a thriving life sciences community: it is home to GSK, Autolus and a growing number of biotech companies. We are continuing to encourage companies to expand their footprint in the area, supported by the cell and gene therapy catapult, which operates the manufacturing innovation centre, and the skills and training laboratories.
I am proud that my constituency is a top location for life sciences companies to develop cutting-edge technologies. One of them, BioOrbit, which is hosted by Airbus Defence and Space in Stevenage through its small and medium-sized enterprises accelerator programme, is building a pharmaceuticals factory in space to leverage the benefits of microgravity for large-scale administration of cancer treatments. Another UK prime company, GSK, hosts more than 40 SMEs. Does my hon. Friend agree that we need to do all we can to support innovative SMEs in the life sciences and space sectors?
My hon. Friend rightly acknowledges that Stevenage is a leading hub for life sciences companies to develop and commercialise cutting-edge therapeutics. GSK and Airbus are shining examples of UK innovation at work. Earlier this week we published the industrial strategy Green Paper to drive long-term, sustainable, inclusive and secure growth, and to secure investment in crucial sectors of the economy, including life sciences. There is an opportunity to renew the UK’s leadership in life sciences through bold innovation and collective partnerships with the sector, to build an NHS that is fit for the future and to drive economic growth across the regions of the UK.
Following the successful investment in Rolls-Royce’s technology and logistics centre, what is the Minister doing to get more investment into my Bognor Regis and Littlehampton constituency?
I am not sure that Rolls-Royce fits into a question on life sciences. Does the Minister have an answer?
I thank the hon. Member for her question. She will have seen from the investment summit earlier this week that there is huge interest from a number of companies in investing in the UK, and there is huge support from this Government for those companies that wish to invest.
Mobile Phone Reception: Bridgwater
The most recent statistics, which are available for the old shape of the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, suggest that 97% of properties there have 4G connection. However, I am not sure that the statistics reflect the lived experience of most people in his constituency—or, I suspect, any other constituency in the land. That is not good enough, which is why our ambition is for all populated areas to have stand-alone 5G by 2030.
I am grateful to the Minister for his answer. Bridgwater has a mixture of urban and rural areas, and many of my constituents in the rural parts complain of almost non-existent signals. The O2 signal in Burnham-on-Sea is non-existent. In Pawlett, the Vodafone and EE signals are non-existent. In Chedzoy, the EE signal is non-existent. [Interruption.] Can he confirm that the Government intend to continue funding the shared rural network, so that we can improve coverage for all our constituents?
Well, I note that the mobile signal seems to be working in here, which is unusual for the rest of the country. We have to get this right, because people cannot live without a proper mobile signal. It is essential for people’s lives, their health and their ability to run a business, and we are determined to put things right. In direct answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question, yes, we will continue to fund the shared rural network.
In constituencies such as Bridgwater and Carlisle, poor mobile coverage forces people to rely on their fixed-line services. Does the Minister share my concern that the switch-off of the public switched telephone network will leave constituents unable to access 999 services in the event of an emergency?
I welcome my hon. Friend to her place. She makes a really good point: as we take away the copper lines and move over to the new technology, which we need to do, it is absolutely essential that we ensure there is a safe transition, even if it is only for people who have telecare devices on which they rely for their own safety—I am sure we all have relatives who have one of those. I have already met all the operators, and I am determined to crack the whip on this issue.
I call Ayoub Khan—not here.
Research and Development
The UK’s R&D system is a central strength and vital for the future prosperity and wellbeing of our citizens. We are recognised for the strengths of our universities system and research base, and we are investing through UK Research and Innovation to continuously improve our R&D capabilities. In July we launched five new quantum technology hubs, which are delivered by UKRI and backed by over £100 million-worth of Government funding. This will ensure that the British people benefit from the potential of quantum technologies in a range of areas, from healthcare and computing to national security and critical infra- structure alike.
Turbo Power Systems in my constituency is a great example of a global company built on research and development but with proud local roots. Would the Secretary of State be happy to visit it, as I have, to see its fantastic work?
Of course, I look forward to visiting Turbo Power Systems the next time I am in the region and seeing the amazing work it does. It is contributing to one of the key missions of this Government, which is to get to clean superpower status by 2030, and I look forward to seeing what it is doing to make that a reality.
I recently visited Yorkshire Cancer Research in my constituency. It is coming up to 100 years since it was founded, and it has created amazing drugs, such as tamoxifen, to extend people’s lives and help them fight cancer. We know that less than 5% of medical research investment is spent on R&D in Yorkshire. Given that we have 8% of the population, what more can the Secretary of State do to ensure that R&D opportunity investment is spread across our country?
It is incredibly important for this Government that we invest across the whole country, which is why we have invested £118 million in healthcare research and partnership hubs that are outside London and across the United Kingdom. I hope that this benefits the hon. Gentleman’s area too.
I call the Chair of the Science, Innovation and Technology Committee.
The whole House recognises—certainly, the Government’s industrial strategy does—that in order to drive growth we need innovation clusters across the country. The last Government committed to increasing R&D spend outside of the greater south-east by 40% by 2030 as part of the failed levelling-up strategy. Will the Secretary of State say whether he intends to maintain that target, and/or what steps he will take to ensure that funding is available to drive regional growth and innovation?
I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for her question, and I congratulate her, on behalf the whole House, on her election as Chair of the Select Committee—I look forward to appearing before it soon and regularly thereafter. She raises an incredibly important point. I can say that this Government are committed to working with local and regional mayors to ensure that local growth plans and the partnerships with UKRI will benefit all regions. These include a £100 million innovation accelerator pilot and £80 million in launchpad programmes, all of which will meet the needs that she outlines.
The Secretary of State has an interest in Northern Ireland, so can I ask him whether he holds statistics on how much research and development tax relief support has been issued to Northern Ireland in the last 12 months to help support science and technology? If he does not have the figures today, I would be happy for him to send them to me.
As always, I am grateful to hear from the hon. Gentleman. I will be in touch with any specifics that I can follow up with, but we are a Government committed to Northern Ireland, which I believe he will have seen from day one of this Labour Government back in July. I can also show that there have been great advancements in investment in Northern Ireland, which is why Northern Ireland has the highest coverage rates for fast fibre-optic broadband of any part of the United Kingdom. I want to be a champion for Northern Ireland, and I visited recently to ensure that everybody in the science and technology community there realises that this is a Government who are on their side.
I call the shadow Minister.
The Secretary of State, in one of his first acts in his new role, cut £1.3 billion-worth of funding that would have been transformative for enabling cutting-edge research and development in Britain. I note that he has also ditched our ambition to turn Britain into a science and technology superpower. We set a target of £20 billion for R&D, which we met, but he has set no such target. Will he be setting a target, and can he today promise that there will be no cuts to R&D expenditure?
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his appointment to his Front-Bench role. Let us just be honest about what this Government inherited. That £20 billion black hole affects every single Department across Government. My Department inherited a situation where the previous Government—including the former Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Godalming and Ash (Jeremy Hunt), who is sitting on the Opposition Front Bench—committed at this Dispatch Box to an exascale project to which not one single penny had been committed. That was a fraud committed on the scientific community of our country by that Government, and I had to make the difficult decision to move forward—
Order. I think we have gone on long enough on that question.
Project Gigabit: Chester South and Eddisbury
As part of Project Gigabit, Freedom Fibre is delivering a contract to provide 15,000 homes and businesses across Cheshire, including in the hon. Lady’s constituency, with access to fast, reliable broadband. In addition, over 800 vouchers have been issued to connect premises in her constituency through the gigabit broadband voucher scheme.
Close to half the wards in my constituency are judged by Ofcom to be in the worst 30% of all areas in the UK when it comes to having a decent broadband connection. My constituents will be deeply concerned by reports that the current review of the next stage of Project Gigabit could see funds diverted from hard-to-reach rural areas to major cities such as central London. Will the Minister offer a concrete guarantee that no rural community will be left behind by the Government’s review?
I do not see it as a divide between rural and urban, because there are urban issues as well as rural issues. The hon. Lady is absolutely right that the previous Government failed to deliver in her constituency, and we intend to put that right. She should not believe everything she reads in the newspapers. I know that she was trying to have a meeting with Building Digital UK, and I am happy to make sure that we can both sit down with officials to try to sort out these problems in her constituency—and I am happy to do the same for any other Members.
The Minister knows that improved connectivity is important to the economy of our south Wales valleys. However, it has been hard for me to get definitive information on the roll-out of Project Gigabit to Trefil, just north of Tredegar, in my constituency. Will he please look into this so that my constituents in Trefil, and across the rest of Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney, know when their broadband service will improve?
I am happy to arrange the same kind of meeting with my hon. Friend as I offered to the hon. Member for Chester South and Eddisbury (Aphra Brandreth). He is right that there are very significant problems in south Wales valleys communities, and we need to put those right. It is a shame that we have not had a digital inclusion strategy for 10 whole years, which is a disgrace. That is one of the things we need to put right.
UK Space Sector
We have already debated some of these issues, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, and he is right to stress that the UK space sector is one of our most important areas of possible economic growth. We want to maximise our unique potential in this area, and I look forward to working with him and the companies based in his constituency that are seeking to do this.
I thank the Minister, as this sector offers massive economic and strategic opportunities for the United Kingdom. The development of the Shetland spaceport at SaxaVord is now significantly ahead of the field, so getting that project across the line will bring benefits to other projects across the United Kingdom. Will the Minister meet me and the developers of SaxaVord in Shetland to discuss what the Government can do, directly or indirectly, to help?
It feels like I will be meeting everyone, but I am very happy to meet the right hon. Gentleman. Indeed, I am meeting Orbex later today, because an important point is that we have a specific geographical and skills advantage in the launch sector, which we need to exploit to our best advantage for the whole UK economy. It is not just about what happens on Shetland; it is about lots of businesses in the supply chain, from mission control to technological support. Yes, I am very happy to meet him.
Roblox: Child Protection
Keeping children safe online is the priority for this Government. The Online Safety Act 2023 places strict safety duties on online platforms, such as Roblox, to protect children from being groomed by online predators. Ofcom is the regime’s regulator and, by the end of this year, it will set out steps for the platforms to take to fulfil their duties.
One of my constituents is a volunteer moderator on the Roblox platform. His group has identified and banned over 14,000 accounts involved in child grooming, exploitation and sharing indecent images. Does the Secretary of State agree that while we drive for tech innovation and investment, we must keep online safety at the heart of our strategy?
I extend my deepest sympathies to those who have been affected by the crimes that my hon. Friend outlines. The Online Safety Act—and its measures that will soon come into force—is there to address that concern directly. I want these powers to be used as assertively as possible. Just today, I have heard about another story concerning Roblox. I expect that company to do better in protecting service users, particularly children, on its platform.
Topical Questions
I call Ayoub Khan—not here.
At the international investment summit on Monday, some of the world’s biggest science and tech firms committed to investing billions of pounds in Britain, growing our economy and creating new jobs across our country.
In Rome last week, I launched the UK’s first online safety agreement with the United States. By working with our closest partner, home to the world’s biggest tech companies, we will create a safer online world for our children.
Finally, on behalf of the whole House, I congratulate Sir Demis Hassabis and Geoffrey Hinton on the Nobel prizes they won last week. Their extraordinary achievements are testament to the phenomenal level of AI talent fostered in Britain today.
There are numerous examples of the damage that out of control social media and mobile phone usage is doing to our young people, including in my area of Fife. The Courier newspaper has played an important role in highlighting this. Does the Secretary of State recognise the concerns that the safer phones Bill—the Protection of Children (Digital Safety and Data Protection) Bill—presented today by my hon. Friend the Member for Whitehaven and Workington (Josh MacAlister) and backed by many hon. Members across the House, seeks to address?
I pay tribute to The Courier for exposing some of these issues. We must keep children and vulnerable people safe when they are online. I intend to ensure that safety is baked in from the outset. When it comes to keeping children safe in this country, everything is on the table and I am open minded about how we move forward to achieve a much safer environment. Companies releasing products into our society should see that as a privilege, not a right. I have high expectations, on behalf of this country, to ensure that safety is baked in from the start.
I call the shadow Secretary of State.
Did the Secretary of State fully disclose to the Civil Service Commission the Labour links of one of the most senior civil service appointments, or the £66,000 donation he received?
Every donation that was made to this party in opposition has been declared in the appropriate ways. I am proud to be part of a party that raises standards in public life rather than votes to lower them. [Interruption.] I am also proud to be part of a party that comes into government and attracts talent to working for it, whereas when the Conservatives see talent, they libel it.
Thanks to Whitehall Watch, we have a copy of the form. It is clear the Secretary of State failed to mention the conflicts of interest, as required by the ministerial code. In the words of the Prime Minister’s favourite pop star, some would say he is “Guilty as Sin”. Will he refer himself to the adviser on standards, or do we have to wait for the Prime Minister to finish organising VIP motorcades and do it for him?
There we have it—a party that attacks civil servants and the world’s greatest talent gravitating towards this party and this Government, to work for them. When he sees talent in Government, he libels it and saddles the taxpayer with the bill. This Government attract talent and I am proud of that.
Farnborough has done an astonishing job at getting British aviation, which I have supported, into the global news. My dad served in the Fleet Air Arm back in the 1960s, and I went with him many times to Farnborough to see the planes he worked on up in the sky. As a country and a House, we should celebrate the fact that Farnborough is now moving into space. I am very grateful for what Farnborough is doing, and of course I will be there to participate in the event in any way that is meaningful.
it seems—[Interruption.] It seems I have never been so popular!
I am very happy to meet the hon. Lady, as she makes a serious point. We want every single part of this country to share in the digital future. We can do that only if we have the infrastructure that we need everywhere in the UK.
I thank my hon. Friend for her question and for all the work that she does to encourage more women into tech. It is great to know that the tech world is full not just of “tech bros”, but quite a lot of tech sisters as well. We are committed to building on the UK’s success as a global AI leader, and the upcoming AI action plan demonstrates that commitment to ensure the safe development of AI models by introducing binding regulation on a handful of companies developing the most powerful AI systems, fostering trust in those technologies. We will also continue—
Order. We are now moving to Prime Minister’s questions.
Prime Minister
The Prime Minister was asked—
Engagements
Alex Salmond was a monumental figure in Scottish and UK politics. He leaves a lasting legacy. I know that the deepest condolences of the whole House are with Moira, his family and his loved ones.
This week, we also remember our colleague and friend, Sir David Amess, whose kindness and commitment to public service continues to inspire us all. I know how deeply this is felt by those on the Opposition Benches, and I am so glad that his plaque is here in the House with us.
I also wish to acknowledge the extraordinary life of Holocaust survivor Lily Ebert whose message of hope showed such courage. May her memory be a blessing. We also extend our sympathies to the family of General Sir Mike Jackson. He was an inspirational leader of the British Army and served with distinction.
I know the whole House will join me in wishing the best of luck to the new England manager, Thomas Tuchel. I will not hold his old job against him, but I wish him well in the new one.
This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings later today.
In last week’s maternity services debate, we heard of the devastating impact of the removal of consultant-led maternity services from hospitals. Under the previous Government’s unfunded new hospitals programme, there were proposals to remove consultant-led maternity services from our hospital in Winchester. Can the Prime Minister reassure me and my constituents that, under the new Government, consultant-led maternity and A&E services will remain in Winchester, and will he commit to funding properly the backlog of maintenance issues that has developed in our hospital?
I thank the hon. Member for raising that very important issue and for championing the voices of women in his constituency. We are committed to ensuring that all women and babies receive safe, compassionate and personalised care through pregnancy, birth and the critical following months. Reconfiguration of the services, as he knows, is a matter for the integrated care boards, which is important, as it allows decisions to be made locally and to be tailored to local interests. All changes should be based on evidence, be clinically led and involve engagement with patients to ensure that they will deliver better outcomes. This is a very important matter.
Yes, I do, and I know this is a concerning time for families who rely on the brilliant work of Whitby InterActive. Children with special educational needs and disabilities have been failed for too long. It comes up repeatedly in the House, with parents struggling to get their children the support they need and deserve. We must raise the standards for every child so that they can succeed in education. We will fix the foundations and ensure that every child can achieve their potential.
I call the Leader of the Opposition.
I join the Prime Minister’s words of tribute to Alex Salmond and the Holocaust survivor Lily Ebert, and thank him for his kind words about Sir David Amess, whom we remember fondly. We are thinking of all their families at this moment.
This week, China has carried out unwarranted, aggressive and intimidatory military exercises in the Taiwan strait. Our allies are rightly concerned. After worrying reports that the Government may have intervened to stop a visit to the UK by the former Taiwanese President, will the Prime Minister confirm that the Foreign Secretary will use his meetings in Beijing this week to condemn China’s dangerous escalatory acts in the strait?
The continued military activity in the strait is not conducive to peace and stability. Stability in the Taiwan strait is in all of our interests. On the wider point that he raises, we will co-operate where we can as permanent members of the UN Security Council on issues such as net zero and health and trade, compete where we have different interests, and challenge—the point he makes is absolutely right—where it is needed to protect national security, human rights and our values. We will put that challenge in.
Given what the Prime Minister said—I agree of course that we must engage and should use that engagement for our national interest—I hope that the Foreign Secretary will unequivocally condemn this military escalation and stand up for democracy in Taiwan.
The whole House will be concerned about the fate of the democracy campaigner Jimmy Lai. He is a British citizen who has been wrongly imprisoned in Hong Kong for four years. The previous Government pressured China for his release. Does the Prime Minister agree that this is a politically motivated prosecution and that it is a breach of China’s legal obligations to Hong Kong under the Sino-British declaration?
Yes, and that case, as the right hon. Gentleman will understand, is a priority for the Government. We call on the Hong Kong authorities to release immediately our British national. The Foreign Secretary raised this case in his first meeting with China’s Foreign Minister and we will continue to do so.
I thank the Prime Minister for that answer. As he knows, China has become a decisive enabler of Russia’s war against Ukraine, now supplying the vast majority of Russia’s imported military micro-electronics and components and worsening the suffering of the Ukrainian people. Will the Prime Minister confirm that he is prepared to sanction any Chinese business or individual involved in aiding Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, including imposing secondary sanctions on financial institutions?
Yes. We have called for that in the past and we continue to do so. I hope that this is an issue where we can have unity across the House.
Yes, I assure the Prime Minister of our support. It is something that the last Government began. The United States recently expanded their sanctions and I hope the new Government will continue to look at doing the same.
The last Government also established a new system of registration and monitoring to protect the UK from interference from foreign states, including China, Russia and Iran. The foreign influence registration scheme was described as essential by MI5 in the fight to help to keep Britain safe, but since the Prime Minister took office, he has halted its implementation. Why?
That is not correct.
That is very clearly what the Government have said. Only last week, the Prime Minister said at the Dispatch Box that he would give the security forces
“the powers that they need”.—[Official Report, 9 October 2024; Vol. 754, c. 297.]
If he is to fulfil that promise, I urge him to get up to speed on this issue and implement the scheme.
Furthermore, Parliament’s Intelligence and Security Committee has warned that British universities are increasingly a rich feeding ground for China to exert political influence over us. That is why we passed the Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Act 2023, with new powers to help to defend universities from that threat, but the new Education Secretary has since blocked it. Can the Prime Minister tell us how, without that tool, the Government will prevent Chinese influence over our universities?
I really do not think that party political points on security and intelligence—[Interruption.] Throughout the last Parliament, we stood with the Government on all questions of security and intelligence, because it was important to the outside world that we did so. I worked with the security and intelligence services for five years prosecuting cases. I know at first hand, as a lawyer, the work that they do. I have known at first hand, as the Prime Minister, the work that they do. We support them in everything that we do, and the right hon. Gentleman knows that.
The FIR scheme and the Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Act were new tools—new sets of powers—that the previous Government passed in order to give our universities and security services the powers that they need to tackle a growing threat. The Opposition will of course continue to support the Government in protecting our national security, but we believe that those tools are needed, and we are concerned by reports that the new Government have paused their implementation or indeed scrapped them.
Finally, the Chinese Government have sanctioned multiple Members of our Parliament for championing human rights. As a result, they have faced intimidation, abuse and surveillance. I commend you, Mr Speaker, for your defence of the right of every Member of this House to speak out on crucial issues without fear of retaliation from foreign states. I know that the Prime Minister will agree with that too, so this week will the Foreign Secretary in his meetings not just raise the issue but tell the Chinese Government to lift those sanctions on our colleagues?
Yes—we speak with one voice. The right hon. Gentleman speaks about the record of the last Government. That record was 14 years of failure. Six years of austerity, three years of Brexit logjam, then Johnson, Truss and the present Leader of the Opposition—utter failure. This Government were elected to do things differently, make fairer choices, and most importantly, give Britain its future back. We will fix the foundations, with a long-term plan to grow our economy, protect working people and rebuild our country.
I thank my hon. Friend for her question, because years of underfunding have left councils facing huge budget pressures—[Interruption.] Opposition Members yawn; they do not know the impact that it has on working people up and down the country, who rely on public services. What has happened in Thurrock is shocking. We are committed to resetting the relationship, and helping those under intervention to recover and reform. Fourteen years is a long time of destroying local services, and it is clear that it will take time to fix them. We will get councils back on their feet by providing multi-year funding settlements, but ultimately we have to grow our economy. I am surprised that the Leader of the Opposition did not welcome the £63 billion of investment that we were able to announce on Monday.
I call the leader of the Liberal Democrats.
I echo the Prime Minister’s tributes to Alex Salmond, Sir David Amess and Lily Ebert.
I welcome the news that Ministers are going to review the carer’s allowance repayment scandal, after campaigns by carers organisations, The Guardian and the Liberal Democrats, culminating in our motion on the Order Paper today, but does the Prime Minister agree that the evidence needed for the review is already long established, and many of the decisions self-evident? Will he and his colleagues vote for our motion today, so that we can write off the overpayments, end the crazy cliff edge to the earnings limit now, and have a fuller review of the support that carers deserve?
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for raising that really important issue, which is affecting a number of people. We have launched an independent review into the carer’s allowance overpayments, to look at the circumstances of the overpayments and see what went wrong and what can be done to put it right, because carers must get the support that they deserve. I am grateful to him for raising it and I am glad that we have been able to take this action today to go forward on that really important issue.
I thank the Prime Minister for that answer, and ask him that Ministers listen to the voices of carers throughout the review.
Let me turn to the middle east. Israeli Finance Minister Smotrich has said that starving 2 million people in Gaza might be “justified and moral”. National Security Minister Ben-Gvir called settlers who killed a 19-year-old on the west bank “heroes”. After my visit to Israel and Palestine last February, having witnessed the damaged that those extremist Ministers in the Netanyahu Government are doing, I called on the last UK Government to sanction them. They refused, but we now learn that the former Foreign Secretary was considering it. Will the Prime Minister now sanction Ministers Ben-Gvir and Smotrich?
We are looking at that, because those are obviously abhorrent comments, as the right hon. Gentleman rightly says, along with other really concerning activity in the west bank and across the region. The humanitarian situation in Gaza is dire: the death toll has surpassed 42,000 and access to basic services is becoming much harder. Israel must take all possible steps to avoid civilian casualties, to allow aid into Gaza in much greater volume, and to provide the UN and humanitarian partners the ability to operate effectively. Along with France, the UK will convene an urgent meeting of the UN Security Council to address that.
I welcome Tom to the House. It is encouraging to see young people engaging in democracy. County lines is a real problem, and all of us will have experienced its effect and impact in our constituencies. Our county lines programme focuses on preventing young people from being exploited and lured into criminal gangs, which is far too common, and we are committed to introducing a new offence of child criminal exploitation—that is long overdue. We will also create a network of Young Futures hubs, staffed with professional youth workers, mental health support workers and career advisers, to provide focused support for young people, helping them to fulfil their ambitions and preventing them from being drawn into crime.
Plaid Cymru, too, pays tribute to Alex Salmond and Sir David Amess.
One in five people in Wales are on an NHS waiting list. The Secretary of State for Wales says that a new cross-border NHS plan would bring down Welsh surgery waiting lists, but the Labour First Minister of Wales contradicts her and denies that it has anything to do with bringing down waiting lists. Are they making it up as they go along?
The difference is that we now have a Westminster Government who want to work with the Welsh Government to deliver for the people of Wales. For 14 long years the Welsh Government were in a position where the then UK Government were in conflict with them. Now, we will work together, collaborate and ensure that we deliver across Wales.
I welcome my hon. Friend’s work with the new Labour police and crime commissioner. It is sad to say that in Cleveland, the number of full-time equivalent police officers fell by over 12% under the last Government; when you fail on the economy and growth, those are the types of things that happen across the country. As part of our neighbourhood policing guarantee, we will put 13,000 more neighbourhood police and police community support officers back on our streets and ensure that every community has a named local officer. Through our safer streets mission, we will tackle illegal drugs, halve knife crime and crack down on antisocial behaviour, and go after the gangs that lure young people into violence.
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising the question of SEND, because it is a really important issue—I think this is the fourth time in two Prime Minister’s Question Times that it has been raised, by Members on both sides of the House. I quibble with his suggestion that it is both parties, since his party was in power for 14 years, but the spirit in which he proposes that this work should be cross-party is something that we should take up, because SEND is such an important issue. It affects so many children and parents, so notwithstanding that quibble, I am very happy to work across the House on an issue as important as SEND.
Yes: the Employment Rights Bill is pro-worker and pro-growth, and proudly so. I do not believe we can build a strong economy by having people in insecure work. The Conservative party goes against every protection for workers—it was against the minimum wage, and it is against these new protections—but the vast majority of businesses, large and small, already know that investing in their human capital and treating people properly at work is what produces growth. Here is the big political divide: the Conservatives always oppose workers’ rights, and we will always champion them.
The hon. Gentleman raises a really important issue. Dentistry was left in a shocking state by the last Government: I was shocked to hear that the commonest cause of A&E admission for six to 10-year-olds in this country’s children’s hospitals is to have teeth taken out, because of the failure of the last Government. That is shocking on any analysis, and we will put it right; we will take the necessary steps, and we will work across the House to do so as quickly as possible.
My hon. Friend makes a good point. The Conservative party wants to get rid of maternity pay, but keep hereditary peers. It is the same old Tories. This is an important issue that she has raised. The letters are honest, powerful and important, and I think they hold up a mirror to our country. We will deliver a Budget that drives economic growth, improves the lives of working people, fixes our public services and rebuilds our country with a decade of national renewal.
I call Ann Davies.
On this issue of winter fuel payments, we have inherited a £22 billion black hole. [Interruption.] Conservative Members should be apologising, not groaning, for leaving the country in such a state. We are committed to the triple lock. The point about pensions is really important, and the triple lock means that the pension will increase again by £460 next year. That means pensioners under Labour will be better off, because we are going to stabilise the economy after that lot lost control of it.
I thank my hon. Friend for raising this vital issue. The statistics on male suicide are truly shocking. I went to an event a few years ago here in this place, where everyone in attendance was asked if they had lost someone to suicide, and I then reflected on my own experience, which was profound—as it was, I could see, for everybody across the room, and will be across this House—so reducing deaths from suicide is a vital part of our health mission. We are recruiting an additional 8,500 mental health workers specially trained to support people at risk of suicide to provide faster treatment and ease pressure on our services.
I thank the hon. Member for raising what is obviously a very important case, and she is right to do so. I am not across the individual details of it, but it obviously does need to be looked into. So we will commit to look into it, and I will make sure that she gets a meeting with the relevant Minister to lay out such details as she has and to get some answers as to our inquiries.
I thank my hon. Friend for raising this issue and being a champion on it. He is absolutely right about the appalling inheritance: one in four children in absolute poverty—that is a terrible inheritance—and too many vulnerable children in unregulated accommodation. Through our children’s wellbeing Bill, we will put children and their wellbeing at the heart of the education and social care systems. We will also provide a home for all young care leavers to ensure that they are not homeless, and remove the barriers to opportunity so every child can thrive in safe and loving homes.
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising that; it is obviously of huge importance to his constituents and he is right to do so. As he knows, we are reviewing the programme. The programme that the last Government put in place for 40 new hospitals had a number of flaws: they were not all hospitals, they were not new, and they were not funded, so we are reviewing it. He is right to raise this matter, and I will ensure that he has a meeting with the relevant Minister to discuss the development in his constituency. It will matter to his constituents who are listening to this, and it is important that they know where the failure lay.
I welcome the Government’s historic investment in carbon capture and storage technology for Teesside and Merseyside. This week I have been at the sector’s conference, and the feeling there is that this is a Government who are delivering after years of delay. Will the Prime Minister recognise the unique potential that Teesside has for jobs, prosperity and economic growth into the future?
Yes, and you will have observed, Mr Speaker, that on Monday we had a very successful investment summit, with £63 billion coming into this country, jobs in every part of the UK, and a clear message from businesses that they are prepared to invest now under this new Labour Government. Part of that was a £22 billion commitment to carbon capture, usage and storage, creating the first clusters in the world including, as my hon. Friend points out, in various parts of the country. We will support those jobs and investment. We will grow our economy and rebuild our country.
I am grateful to the hon. Member for raising that. I do believe in transferring power out of Westminster and into the hands of leaders who know their communities best. Those with skin in the game know what is best for their communities. We are already making steps in the south-west by signing the devolution agreement for Devon and Torbay, and I encourage local authorities to work with their neighbours to pursue deeper and wider devolution for their area. I will ensure that the hon. Member has the meeting that he is asking for.
As the Prime Minister works for a ceasefire and the return of the hostages, he will have the support of Members across the House. He will have noted the comments from the White House calling for urgent action to deal with the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, and for the Netanyahu Government to increase access to aid and the amount of aid getting through. Does the Prime Minister agree with those comments from the White House, and what representations is he making on that matter?
Yes, I do agree with those remarks, and we are constantly making representations on this with our partners. There is an urgent need, as there has been for a long time, for more aid to get into Gaza. It is a desperate situation, and Israel must comply with its international humanitarian law obligations. That is why we are convening a session of the UN Security Council, with others, to address that issue.
Speaker’s Statement
I should inform the House that there has been an issue with the publication of the data from last night’s Division on the reasoned amendment to the Second Reading of the House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill. The result of the Division is not in doubt. As always, it is determined by the Tellers’ count, as announced in the Chamber last night. The names of the Members recorded on the pass reader terminals were not available on the usual timetable as a result of human error. Those names have now been published on the CommonsVotes app and will be available in Hansard online shortly. The House authorities are taking steps to prevent this from happening again.
Points of Order
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was going to raise the issue you have just spoken about as a point of order. My concern is that, for the first time ever in my experience within this House, the list of Members participating in a Division has not been published in the hard copy of Hansard. I ask you to insist that Hansard publishes the list in hard copy, rather than relying upon its being put online. Can I also ask how it came about? This is to do with new technology, and when I inquired about this matter earlier today, the list was still not available at 11.30 this morning. Why was it not?
Let me deal with the hon. Gentleman’s main point. I can assure him that we will get it printed, even if it is on a separate sheet, to make sure that who voted what way is available in hard copy. That is the key thing. On his other point, this was human error. It is not about technology; it is nothing to do with technology. Sometimes mistakes are made. I do not want to go on a witch hunt over a mistake made by human error. What I will say is that we will put something in place to ensure that this does not happen again. I am sure he would agree that that is the best way to deal with this matter.
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister said during Prime Minister’s questions, in answer to the Leader of the Opposition, that it was not correct that the current Government have postponed the implementation of the foreign influence registration scheme, yet on 14 August the Government website was updated and a statement was proactively issued by the Home Office stating that the FIR scheme was “no longer expected” to come into force in 2024. That is a postponement, so please will you insist that the Prime Minister returns to the House to correct the record and ensure that we are not misled?
The hon. Lady has been here long enough—[Interruption.] Let me at least finish before you start chipping back at me. I am grateful to her for giving me notice of her point of order. As she well knows, I am not responsible for the accuracy of the Prime Minister’s answers in this House. However, she has put the point on the record, and I am sure that those on the Treasury Bench will have heard her remarks. Let us see where we go from there.
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Some of us were hoping to get an opportunity to ask the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology about the steps his Department is taking to improve diversity and inclusion in the science, technology, engineering and mathematics workforce, but we were not able to do so, because the hon. Member for Birmingham Perry Barr (Ayoub Khan) did not turn up to ask the question on the Order Paper. I know that you, Mr Speaker, and your staff have been at tremendous pains—
Order. We both know that that is not a point of order. You have put on the record the point you were—[Interruption.] No, it is a continuation of questions that finished quite a long time ago. You have made the point that you were not able to get the question in, and we will leave it at that. I am not opening up that debate at this stage.
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister paid tribute to Sir David Amess at questions—we all still miss him—and to General Sir Mike Jackson, who served a number of tours in Northern Ireland, as did hundreds of thousands of British servicemen upholding the rule of law. Hundreds were killed and thousands were maimed by bombs. We brought in the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 to stop them being endlessly investigated and reinvestigated at the hands of Sinn Féin. Labour said that it would repeal it, so the whole cycle will begin again. Mr Speaker, have you been given any indication of when the Government will come to the House, make a statement and explain their reasoning for putting all those vulnerable servicemen at risk yet again?
The right hon. Member has put his point on the record. I have had no indication of a statement.
Bills Presented
Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Kim Leadbeater, supported by Kit Malthouse, Christine Jardine, Jake Richards, Siân Berry, Rachel Hopkins, Mr Peter Bedford, Tonia Antoniazzi, Sarah Green, Dr Jeevun Sandher, Ruth Cadbury and Paula Barker, presented a Bill to allow adults who are terminally ill, subject to safeguards and protections, to request and be provided with assistance to end their own life; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 29 November, and to be printed (Bill 12).
New Homes (Solar Generation) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Max Wilkinson, supported by Mr Gideon Amos, Alex Sobel, Pippa Heylings, Dr Simon Opher, Dr Danny Chambers, Ellie Chowns, Layla Moran, Carla Denyer, Edward Morello, Calum Miller and Anna Sabine, presented a Bill to require the installation of solar photovoltaic generation equipment on new homes; to set minimum standards for compliance with that requirement; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 17 January 2025, and to be printed (Bill 13).
Climate and Nature Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Dr Roz Savage, supported by Alex Sobel, Olivia Blake, Dr Simon Opher, Clive Lewis, Nadia Whittome, Sir Roger Gale, Simon Hoare, Pippa Heylings, Carla Denyer, Kirsty Blackman and Llinos Medi, presented a Bill to require the United Kingdom to achieve climate and nature targets; to give the Secretary of State a duty to implement a strategy to achieve those targets; to establish a Climate and Nature Assembly to advise the Secretary of State in creating that strategy; to give duties to the Committee on Climate Change and the Joint Nature Conservation Committee regarding the strategy and targets; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 24 January 2025, and to be printed (Bill 14).
Water Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Clive Lewis presented a Bill to set targets and objectives relating to water, including in relation to the ownership of water companies and to climate mitigation and adaptation; to require the Secretary of State to publish and implement a strategy for achieving those targets and objectives; to establish a Commission on Water to advise the Secretary of State on that strategy; to make provision about the powers and duties of that Commission, including a requirement to establish a Citizens’ Assembly on water ownership; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 28 March 2025, and to be printed (Bill 15).
Protection of Children (Digital Safety and Data Protection) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Josh MacAlister, supported by Jess Asato, Claire Coutinho, Florence Eshalomi, Kit Malthouse, Lola McEvoy, Joe Powell, Joani Reid, Jake Richards, Lucy Rigby, Dan Tomlinson and Caroline Voaden, presented a Bill to make provision for the protection of children accessing digital services and content.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 7 March 2025, and to be printed (Bill 16).
Rare Cancers Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Dr Scott Arthur, supported by Dame Siobhain McDonagh, Dame Meg Hillier, Monica Harding, Charlie Maynard, Sarah Owen, Johanna Baxter, Patricia Ferguson, Douglas McAllister, Blair McDougall, Elaine Stewart and Kirsteen Sullivan, presented a Bill to make provision to incentivise research and investment into the treatment of rare types of cancer; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 14 March 2025, and to be printed (Bill 17).
European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Jim Allister, supported by Sir Iain Duncan Smith, Graham Stringer, Gavin Robinson, Nigel Farage, Robin Swann, Sammy Wilson, Richard Tice, Carla Lockhart, Alex Easton, Jim Shannon and Mr Gregory Campbell, presented a Bill to make provision to modify the effect on domestic law of arrangements relating to the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the EU; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 6 December, and to be printed (Bill 18).
Free School Meals (Automatic Registration of Eligible Children) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Peter Lamb presented a Bill to make provision about the automatic registration of all children eligible for free school meals; to provide for an opt-out where the family wishes; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 14 March 2025, and to be printed (Bill 19).
Controlled Drugs (Procedure for Specification) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Alex McIntyre presented a Bill to change the procedure for amending Schedule 2 to the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 6 December, and to be printed (Bill 20).
Licensing Hours Extensions Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Andrew Ranger, supported by Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck, Claire Hughes, Gill German, Catherine Fookes, David Williams, Connor Naismith, Mrs Sarah Russell and Dr Allison Gardner, presented a Bill to amend the Licensing Act 2003 so that licensing hours Orders can be made by negative resolution statutory instrument.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 17 January 2025, and to be printed (Bill 21).
Looked After Children (Distance Placements) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Jake Richards presented a Bill to require local authorities to publish information about looked after children in distance placements; to require local authorities to develop and publish sufficiency plans in respect of their duty under section 22G of the Children Act 1989; to require the Secretary of State to publish a national sufficiency plan in respect of looked after children in distance placements; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 28 March 2025, and to be printed (Bill 22).
Absent Voting (Elections in Scotland and Wales) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Tracy Gilbert, supported by Patricia Ferguson, Kirsteen Sullivan and Douglas McAllister, presented a Bill to make provision about absent voting in connection with local government elections in Scotland and Wales, elections to the Scottish Parliament and elections to Senedd Cymru; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 17 January 2025, and to be printed (Bill 23).
Unauthorised Entry to Football Matches Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Linsey Farnsworth, supported by Danny Beales and Mr Jonathan Brash, presented a Bill to create an offence of unauthorised entry at football matches for which a football banning order can be imposed following conviction.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 6 December, and to be printed (Bill 24).
Space Industry (Indemnities) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
John Grady presented a Bill to require operator licences authorising the carrying out of spaceflight activities to specify the licensee’s indemnity limit.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 7 March 2025, and to be printed (Bill 25).
Short-term Let Accommodation Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Rachael Maskell, supported by Markus Campbell-Savours, Alison Hume, Mr Richard Quigley, Andy Slaughter, Neil Duncan-Jordan, Dr Rupa Huq, Ruth Jones, Euan Stainbank, Peter Prinsley, Tim Farron and Lizzi Collinge, presented a Bill to make provision for the licensing of short-term let accommodation; to make provision about the marketing of short-term let accommodation; to make provision about planning permission in respect of short-term let accommodation; to require the Secretary of State to publish guidance about the management of short-term let accommodation; to make provision about small business rates relief for short-term let accommodation; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 20 June 2025, and to be printed (Bill 26).
Fur (Import and Sale) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Ruth Jones, supported by Sir Roger Gale, Adam Jogee, Tim Farron, Alex Sobel, Barry Gardiner, David Taylor, Rachael Maskell and Simon Hoare, presented a Bill to prohibit the import and sale of fur; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 13 June 2025, and to be printed (Bill 27).
Animal Welfare (Import of Dogs, Cats and Ferrets) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Dr Danny Chambers, supported by Dr Neil Hudson, Vikki Slade, James MacCleary, Max Wilkinson, Susan Murray, Lisa Smart, Mr Paul Kohler, Liz Jarvis, Mr Lee Dillon, Adam Dance and Alison Bennett, presented a Bill to make provision for and in connection with restricting the importation and non-commercial movement of dogs, cats and ferrets.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 29 November, and to be printed (Bill 28).
Fireworks Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Sarah Owen, supported by Jessica Morden and Andrew Pakes, presented a Bill to make provision about the sale of fireworks; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 17 January 2025, and to be printed (Bill 29).
I had a good go at that one as well.
Gambling Act 2005 (Monetary Limits for Lotteries) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Wendy Chamberlain, supported by Ben Lake, Pete Wishart, Rebecca Harris and Tonia Antoniazzi, presented a Bill to remove monetary limits on proceeds from the mandatory conditions of lottery operating licences; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 24 January 2025, and to be printed (Bill 30).
Sale of Tickets (Sporting and Cultural Events) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Dr Rupa Huq, supported by Jim Shannon, Rosie Duffield, Lillian Jones, Nadia Whittome, Christine Jardine, Wera Hobhouse, Sarah Champion, Dawn Butler, Bambos Charalambous, Martin Vickers and Kim Johnson, presented a Bill to make provision about transparency of ticket prices for sporting and cultural events; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 6 December, and to be printed (Bill 31).
Opposition Day
3rd Allotted Day
Carer’s Allowance
I inform the House that I have selected amendment (a) tabled in the name of the Prime Minister. I call Ed Davey.
I beg to move,
That this House recognises the remarkable contributions that the UK’s 5.7 million unpaid carers make to society and the huge financial challenges many face; notes with deep concern that tens of thousands of carers are unfairly punished for overpayments of Carer’s Allowance due to the £151-a-week earnings limit; believes that carers should not be forced to face the stress, humiliation and fear caused by demands for repayments of Carer’s Allowance; condemns the previous Government for failing to address this scandal; calls on the Government to write-off existing overpayments immediately, raise the Carer’s Allowance earnings limit and introduce a taper to end the unfair cliff edge; and further calls on the Government to conduct a comprehensive review of support for carers to help people juggle care and work.
It is a great honour to open the first full Liberal Democrat Opposition day in 15 years. I assure the House that we will not waste our precious debates on the sort of political game playing to which Opposition days often fall victim. Instead, we will use them to focus on the things that really matter to ordinary people, and to tell Ministers directly about the real problems that our constituents face.
That brings me to our first motion on unpaid carers, or family carers as I prefer to say. They are people looking after relatives, friends or neighbours, and they do a remarkable and important job. Looking after someone they love can be rewarding and full of love—whether they are a parent of a disabled child, a teenager looking after a terminally ill parent or a close relative of an elderly family member—but it is far from glamorous. Caring for a family member can be relentless and exhausting.
As the House knows, I have been a carer for much of my life but, more importantly, I have also had the great privilege of meeting and hearing from thousands of carers in my constituency and across the United Kingdom. I have some understanding of the challenges that carers face every single day: the worries, the exhaustion, the lack of breaks and the financial difficulties, too. Britain’s carers deserve our support.
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take this as a friendly intervention, as he knows what I am going to say. He talks about family carers and mentioned teenagers who support loved ones, which is important, but does he agree that we should recognise the role of young carers? Having worked with them, I know that they can be as young as five years old and supporting a loved one or family member.
The hon. Member is absolutely right. I include young carers; indeed, I am a member of the all-party parliamentary group on young carers and young adult carers, and I invite him to join us. It is chaired by a well-established Labour Member. Young carers are very much part of our thinking, but for some, who will not be young—
Order. May I say to the hon. Member for Reading West and Mid Berkshire (Olivia Bailey), please do not walk in front of Members when they are intervening? Please, can we think of others?
For carers who can receive carer’s allowance, which does not include young carers, it is a lifeline. Carer’s allowance is the main financial support available but, frankly, as the main way that we support family carers, it is not fit for purpose.
I commend the right hon. Gentleman for his endeavours in the debate, which we support, and on his compassion for carers given his own experience. Someone who cares for their parents all day and then works a couple of hours in the evening is precluded from receiving carer’s allowance. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that those people, who do not get carer’s allowance because they happen to work a few hours, should qualify?
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that point. That should certainly be part of the review, but one or two other issues, which I will talk about, are critical to reform probably even before that.
At just £81.90 a week, carer’s allowance is the lowest benefit of its kind. For someone doing 35 hours of caring a week—the minimum period for eligibility—that is just £2.34 an hour. It is not just the low rate of the carer’s allowance that worries me but the fact that the eligibility rules are inflexible and very badly designed, chief among them being the earnings limit of £151 a week. Even for someone on minimum wage, that is just 13 hours and 20 minutes a week. The earning limit operates like a cliff edge. As soon as someone makes £151.01 a week, they lose the whole carer’s allowance—every penny of the £81.90. It acts as a significant barrier and a major disincentive to work. It means carers on low incomes cannot work a bit more to help make ends meet, so it is bad for them, bad for the person they are caring for, bad for their employers and bad for the economy.
But here is where things get worse. There are tens of thousands of carers who go slightly over the earnings limit, mostly without realising it. Maybe they pick up an extra shift, happen to get an end-of-year bonus, or understandably do not realise the way carer’s allowance operates in such a daft way. Even though the Department for Work and Pensions gets regular alerts from His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs when people go over the earnings limit, it has not been telling carers and it keeps paying carer’s allowance until one day, out of the blue, the carer gets hit with demands to repay those overpayments, which may have built up over months and years due to the DWP’s own inaction.
Back in July, I told the Prime Minister about one of my constituents, Andrea, who lives in Chessington. She is a full-time carer for her mum. Back in 2019, Andrea decided to go back to work part-time in a charity shop—mainly for her mental health, she told me. She informed the DWP at the time and it continued her payments. Five years later, it wrote to her and said that no, she now had to repay £4,600. Andrea says she feels “harassed, bullied and overwhelmed.” She now does just six hours’ unpaid work a month to avoid going over the earnings limit and getting into more debt. She says the whole thing makes her “want to give up work and give up caring.”
The right hon. Gentleman refers to mental health. Romi Taylor is a 16-year-old who cares for her mother, who has chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Romi recently won an award at the BBC Radio Lancashire’s Make a Difference awards—you were there, Mr Speaker. Many carers find caring for a loved one to be a lonely place. This is a 16-year-old taking care of her mother and not having time with her friends. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that carers need to be recognised, and that the support they require beyond benefits, including mental health support, should be—
Order. May I just say to my constituency neighbour that interventions are meant to be short? I have a list, so if you want to make a speech I am more than happy because these contributions do matter, but try not to make a speech through interventions. Don’t follow Mr Shannon—he will mislead you. [Laughter.]
Thank you, Mr Speaker. The hon. Gentleman is of course right and I pay tribute to his constituent, who was lucky enough to be presented the award by Mr Speaker. He is right about the mental health of carers. NHS data shows that the mental health of carers is twice as poor as it is for the population at large because of the isolation, so that issue is absolutely a part of this debate.
I will let the right hon. Gentleman in, but then I do want to make some progress.
Before the right hon. Gentleman resumes his narrative—he speaks with huge authority on this subject—can he underline what he told the House before the previous intervention? This was a case where someone reported what they were doing, was wrongly told it was okay to proceed and was then hit with a bill for thousands of pounds retrospectively. Surely that is incompetence and maladministration. Is there not any way for that person to have recourse to justice?
The right hon. Gentleman makes exactly the right point and as her MP I am pursuing that line of argument, but we need a change of culture and attitude at the DWP to be able to proceed with these cases on behalf of our constituents. She told me that the whole thing makes her want to give up caring and give up working. That is how affected she has been. Who is it helping, when carers feel like that?
I am sure that someone, somewhere in the DWP or the Treasury, thinks this sort of penny pinching saves the Government money, but they could not be more wrong. It is millions of carers like Andrea who save the Government money: £162 billion a year, according to Carers UK, through the vital work they do for free. When badly designed Government policies fail to support carers and instead push them over the edge, the real cost—an enormous cost—is to taxpayers and the economy.
There are so many stories like Andrea’s. Government figures suggest that more than 130,000 people have outstanding carer’s allowance debt, some going back years. According to the DWP’s own figures, last year alone there were 34,500 overpayments due to the earnings limit. We have heard how carers have even been threatened with prosecution. This is a terrible scandal: tens of thousands of carers becoming victims of a system that is supposed to be there to support them.
Although the stories we have heard in recent months have been truly shocking, they are not new. The Work and Pensions Committee launched an inquiry into this issue almost six years ago, back in 2018. The National Audit Office published its own report in 2019. The last Government should have acted then, but they did nothing. I raised it with the last Prime Minister. He did nothing. Conservative Ministers failed to tackle it for the entirety of the last Parliament. They just passed it on to the new Government, as yet another part of their legacy.
I raised the matter, therefore, at the new Prime Minister’s first oral questions in July. Although he was non-committal, I am genuinely pleased and grateful that Ministers have now announced a review, at least into the scandal of carer’s allowance overpayments. Whether that was in response to our motion, I will let others decide. I hope the Minister will say a lot more about the review when she speaks and how the Government are thinking about that. I hope the debate can be seen as the first input to, or kick-off of, that review. I certainly hope the Minister will make it clear that the review will not be a repeat of the type of review we had in the last Parliament, when Conservative reviews were set up primarily for delay and kicking issues into the long grass.
As I hinted at during today’s Question Time, my concern about the review is that the evidence to make a decision is already well-founded, with two recent Select Committee reports and mountains of evidence immediately available from organisations such as Carers UK or Carers Trust, and the National Audit Office carrying out its second review in just five years over the last four months. I ask the Secretary of State, therefore, to reshape the review that she has announced, because it is self-evident that the vast majority of overpayments of carer’s allowance should be written off immediately. I accept that there may be a few cases of genuine fraud in which that would not be appropriate, but the DWP should not be persecuting tens of thousands of carers whose overpayments were caused by the crazy cliff edge in the current carer’s allowance system, and by the DWP’s own incompetence in failing to notify them of overpayments immediately.
Some changes could be made to the rules that are just common sense, making it easier for carers to juggle work and care and thus boost our economy, such as raising the earnings limit and replacing the cliff edge with a taper. There are changes that do not need a long review; there are decisions that can be taken now, or at least very quickly. However, as our motion says, we need to go further for carers than these obvious and relatively simple decisions. The Government should conduct a full-scale review of all support for carers, so that we can make it easier for them to carry on caring and to juggle caring with work. That will be better for them, better for their loved ones, and better for our economy.
I urge the House to pass the motion. Let us not allow carers to be forgotten and ignored any longer.
I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “society” to the end and add:
“; believes it is essential that carers are provided with the support they need at the time they need it; condemns the previous Government for failing to address the scandal of demands for repayments of Carer’s Allowance; and welcomes the Government’s review into how these overpayments have occurred, what best can be done to support those who have accrued them and how to reduce the risk of these problems occurring in future.”
Let me begin by paying tribute to the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Ed Davey). It is excellent that he has brought this subject to the House. I heard what he said about family carers as opposed to unpaid carers, and while I do not want to get involved in a big linguistic debate, I think he made an important point that will be recognised by many carers up and down the country. When we are making policy, we should always listen to those with direct experience. I think that the right hon. Gentleman made his point on behalf of millions of people, and it is good that the House has heard it.
Many people will be personally acquainted with this issue. There are 5 million carers in the UK and about 1 million people are receiving carer’s allowance, so this debate is extremely important. According to the latest census, just under one in 10 people in England and Wales provide unpaid care, but the subject of carers is not at the top of the political agenda nearly as often as it should be.
When I was a clinician, people did not even realise that they could be labelled as carers and could apply to be carers, and were unaware of the gateway that that would provide. Might the Government consider doing some work to make more people aware that they are undertaking caring responsibilities, so that they can then obtain the support that is actually out there, if they only knew?
That is a very good point, and the hon. Gentleman’s experience as a clinician is welcome. The Secretary of State has considerable experience of working with carers, and I will alert her to his comments, because I think she would appreciate what he has said.
We must never think this is not an issue that does not affect us all. Many of us will become carers—if not now, at some point in our lives. This affects all of us, and everyone’s life is different. Support for family carers needs to be tailored so that it works for the individual and takes into account the different circumstances that people face. When you are caring for someone, that is a huge part of your life, and it never stops. Even if you are working, you are still thinking about that person for whom you are caring day in, day out. It is not just a physical job; it is a mental, intellectual job, and that is why the issue of stress and how carers are treated is so important.
I join the Minister in paying tribute to the millions of carers in the country, including those in my constituency. Does she agree that when someone is juggling the daily stresses of life, it can be difficult to remember to notify the DWP of a change in circumstances, which is required under the current arrangement?
I will come to the review that we will be conducting, but let me make the general point that we in the Government ought to be able to understand the realities of life and take that into account.
The position that I have described makes the dire situation we have inherited all the more shameful. Family carers are being pushed to breaking point. They have too often been forced to quit jobs that they want to keep and could keep with the right support, which isolates them and shrinks our workforce. With the right support, we could help carers and help our economy as well. To rub salt into the wound, we have inherited a system whereby busy carers, already struggling under a huge weight of responsibility, have been left having to repay large sums of overpaid carer’s allowance, sometimes amounting to thousands of pounds. It seems as though what is supposed to be a safety net designed to catch those in need was instead designed to catch them out.
For some time constituents of mine have found that they are due to repay an overpayment. I always ask them whether they remember when they made their complaint. All telephone conversations with the Department are recorded, so there is a way of making it clear that the fault lies not with the applicant but with the Department. Is there also a way of ensuring that those who have been penalised unfairly for following the Department’s advice should not have to pay that money?
As the hon. Member knows, the Department is not responsible for the delivery of social security benefits in Northern Ireland, but I am sure that Northern Ireland’s Department for Communities will be keeping a close eye on the debate and will want to take his points into account.
This problem is one of the numerous ways in which our social security system is failing the people of this country, with 2.8 million left out of work because they are unwell and more than 4 million children growing up poor, and we have therefore moved fast to fix the foundations of the DWP. That includes our setting up a taskforce to tackle child poverty, extending the household support fund for six months, and holding the first meeting of our new Labour Market Advisory Board. The board’s expertise and fresh thinking will help us break down barriers to work, such as an inability to balance paid work with family care.
This Government have talked about a duty of candour. Can the Minister give an assurance that if people working at the DWP have information about maladministration and poor management of the service that they have witnessed and wish to come forward with that information, they will be protected as whistleblowers?
Obviously whistleblowing is very important. The Hillsborough law that is being introduced is not my responsibility, so the hon. Lady will understand that I cannot go over it extensively, but I will say, as someone who worked on the Hillsborough issue for many years, that it is very important to me personally.
These problems are significant, and given the scale of the challenges, we will not be able to solve all of them overnight, but we have taken important first steps, including tackling the issue of overpayments of carer’s allowance related to earnings. We have all heard the stories of some of the thousands of carers who have been affected, we have all heard and know about the stress and anxiety that it has caused them, and we all want—I hope—to establish the facts.
To address this problem, we must first truly understand what has gone wrong. That is why the DWP has announced today an independent review of overpayments of carer’s allowance that have exceeded the entitlement threshold. The review will investigate how the overpayments have occurred, what can best be done to support those who have accrued them, and how to reduce the risk of such problems occurring in future. We are delighted that Liz Sayce OBE has agreed to lead the review. My colleagues the Minister for Social Security and Disability, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Sir Stephen Timms), and the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Andrew Western), have already met representatives of Carers UK, along with carers themselves, to discuss their report on overpayments, and we will consider the findings of that report alongside the independent review.
On that point, does the Minister agree that there should be a failsafe system? If an overpayment is made and the receiver is not notified, they should be allowed not to pay back any of the money.
I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I am sure that many Members will want to provide their views to the review, which is welcome. I will come to some of the steps we have already taken to try to address the problems in a moment.
It is vital to move quickly to understand exactly what has gone wrong, so that we can set out a plan to put things right. Right now, we want to make it as easy as possible for carers to tell us when something has changed that could affect their carer’s allowance. We will continue to look at improving communications, and we are now reviewing the results of a test of text alerts to claimants who may be at risk of building up overpayments.
In response to the point that the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Ed Davey) made about the need for a review, I assure him that we are not waiting for an extensive review in order to act; we have acted already. Our pilot involved texting 3,500 claimants to alert them when we were told by HMRC that they have breached the current earnings limit. Going forward, we want to make the best use of earnings data already held by HMRC in order to reduce the burdens on busy carers, which also responds to the point made earlier.
Will the Minister give way?
In a moment.
If the results of the pilot are positive, that will be the first step towards addressing the overpayments problem. I know that we need to do much more, and there are many other issues, but it will be a good start.
I am grateful to the Minister for what she has just said, but will she confirm that the remit of the review will go further into the structure of carer’s allowance? Many of us think that the earnings limit is way too low, and the whole cliff-edge structure has to change. Can she confirm that the review will look at that?
I thank the right hon. Member for his question. I went through the details of what the review will look at just a moment ago, but there are wider problems with support for carers. The right hon. Member will know that the Department is currently looking at a whole host of areas, and we need family carers to be much better supported, both in work and when they are not working, so we will look at the wider issues. The review is about doing that, as I have said, but that does not mean that we are not fully aware of all the issues that carers face. As I was saying, addressing overpayments is only part of the action we need to take to ensure that unpaid carers get the support they need and deserve.
Will the Minister give way?
I will make a bit of progress.
We are looking closely at how the benefits system currently works, and it is right that the Government focus on addressing overpayments of carer’s allowance. As I was just saying, we have set up an independent review, but we have heard the concerns about the broader system, including the earnings limit and the lack of taper. As Members will know, earlier this year the Work and Pensions Committee, which was then chaired by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, raised a number of issues with carer’s allowance—not only overpayments, but the need for modernisation more generally. As the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton will know, we have given the Committee’s recommendations the detailed consideration that they deserve, and we will respond later in the autumn.
Order. May I gently say to the Minister that she should look towards the Chair when speaking? I struggle to hear when she is constantly looking the other way. We operate in the third person, which is why Members should always speak through the Chair. Otherwise, I struggle to catch the words.
I apologise, Mr Speaker. You would think that after 14 years I would be able to get it right.
Yes, 14 years. It just goes to show that every day in this House is a school day. Thank you, Mr Speaker; I always welcome your suggestions.
I cannot pre-empt the Secretary of State’s decision, but she will shortly start her uprating review of carer’s allowance, following the release of yesterday’s earnings data and today’s inflation figures, and the outcome of that review will include the new weekly rate of carer’s allowance from April 2025.
Will the Minister give way?
Apologies, but I feel that I should keep going.
Means-tested benefits can help where appropriate. Universal credit, for example, pays an extra £2,400 a year to unpaid family carers. I do not underestimate the challenges within the universal credit system, and we want to ensure that carers who need it get that support. As I was saying to the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton a moment ago, we are looking at different aspects of the system, including by reviewing universal credit to ensure that it does the job we all want it to do. We will set out the details in due course.
Pension credit can also be paid to carers at a higher rate than what those without caring responsibilities receive, and over 100,000 carers receive an extra amount of pension credit because of their entitlement to carer’s allowance. However, we think that as many as 760,000 pensioners who are eligible for pension credit are not receiving it, which is why the Government have already taken action to drive up pension credit take-up. Last month, we started a national campaign to encourage eligible pensioners to check their eligibility and apply. We are asking local authorities to support that and, as the House will know, the Secretary of State and the Deputy Prime Minister wrote to them in August.
Following that, we have seen a 152% increase in applications for pension credit since 29 July, with almost 75,000 applications in just eight weeks. In November we will write to around 120,000 pensioners in receipt of housing benefit who may be eligible but are not currently claiming pension credit, and I encourage all family carers to check that they are receiving all the support to which they are entitled. The gov.uk website has lots of information on carer’s allowance, and 90% of people claim online, although traditional paper forms are available for those who want to claim it that way. I know that organisations such as Carers UK and Citizens Advice are also on hand and do a fantastic job of giving advice.
Financial help for carers is really important, but it is only one pillar of a proper support system. All of us need a balance in life, and that is important for carers too. Most carers of working age want to consider working in some form, and not just for financial wellbeing but to enhance their life and the life of the person for whom they care. We want to help family carers combine their caring responsibilities with paid work where they can. We will review the implementation of the Carer’s Leave Act 2023, which gave employed carers a right to time off work for the first time, and we will explore the benefits of paid leave while being mindful of the impact of any changes on small employers. Through the Employment Rights Bill, we will ensure that flexible working, which can play such an important role in helping carers to balance their work and caring responsibilities, is available to all workers, except where it is genuinely not feasible.
The Government will carefully consider the findings of Lord Darzi’s independent review of the NHS, which is very clear about the need for a fresh approach to supporting family carers. Caring is a demanding role in which no one can function at their best without ever having a break, and the better care fund includes money that can be used for unpaid carer support, including short breaks and respite services for carers. As I mentioned at the beginning of my contribution, we will ensure that family carers’ voices are heard as we develop plans to create a national care service as part of our reforms to adult social care.
Every day, unpaid family carers step up when loved ones need their support. Without the contribution of family carers, our country would not function. The pressure on social care in this country is already unbearable; without unpaid family carers, it would become completely untenable.
For all the talk of a £22 billion black hole, the value that carers give to the economy is £162 billion. Does the Minister agree that it is an absolute scandal that many carers are struggling financially?
Our country is in a very serious financial situation indeed. As I said at the beginning of my speech, anyone who thinks that the issue of care ought not to be right at the top of the political agenda is labouring under a serious misapprehension.
This is an important subject, which is why I am proud of the first steps that this Government have already taken to improve support for carers and to address the overpayment of carer’s allowance, which has caused so much distress for thousands of people. This shows our commitment to recognising and valuing the vital role that carers play in our communities. Of course there is much more to do, so it is my hope that, as we deliver the fundamental change that we need, we can work together with carer organisations and with carers themselves with a renewed sense of purpose to ensure that carers get all the support they need to carry out the incredible work of caring and to live full and fulfilled lives.
I call the shadow Minister.
I welcome this debate on this important matter. There is unanimity across the House that carers up and down this country do an extraordinary job, often in very difficult circumstances. We owe them a huge amount, and not only for the compassion and social value that their work brings, but for the financial and fiscal benefits, as Carers UK has identified, because of the costs that the taxpayer is not required to pick up.
I recognise the experience that the leader of the Liberal Democrats has in this area, through his campaigning and his personal experience. I think he said that it was good that the Liberal Democrats had brought forward a motion today that was devoid of any politics, but I am not sure that I entirely agree with him. The motion of course contains much that we can all agree on, but the relevant poisonous pills within it will ensure that when we divide later—I confidently predict that the motion will fall—only the Liberal Democrats, and perhaps a few other minority parties, will go through the Aye Lobby. They will then be able to crank up the Risographs so that their leaflets can say that only they care about this particular matter. That is far from the truth. My party, the official Opposition, cares very deeply.
When we were in Government, we brought forward a number of measures to ensure that we supported those carers. The level of carer’s allowance has increased by £1,500 since 2010. In 2023 it was my party that brought in the statutory entitlement to one week per year of carer’s leave. It was only last year that we, through the better care fund, provided £327 million to those in desperate need of respite from their caring duties. The care Act of this year increased the rights of carers and also the duties placed upon local authorities. I am also pleased to tell the House that, even more recently, my hon. Friend the Member for East Grinstead and Uckfield (Mims Davies), the shadow Minister for Women and Equalities, attended an event here hosted by Carers UK so that we could continue that really important dialogue.
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will correct the record, because the unpaid carers’ break was brought in by the private Member’s Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain). It was not brought in by the Conservative Government.
I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that that measure was supported by our Government—[Laughter.] No, no—most private Members’ Bills are not supported by the Government of the day and therefore make no progress. We were happy, whatever legislative vehicle was available, to ensure that that important measure came into effect on our watch.
Let me speak for a moment about the complexities of carer’s allowance, because this is really important. It goes to the heart of many of the assertions that have been made in the Chamber today. This is how it works. It is £81.90 per week. We expect somebody who is in receipt of that benefit to be providing care for 35 hours or more to one or more individuals. There is an element of trust in the way the benefit works, because the Department for Work and Pensions cannot establish exactly what individuals are doing up and down the country, and therefore there is an earnings limit, which is a proxy for the amount of paid work that somebody is doing, rather than the amount of time they are spending looking after a loved one. That is the purpose of the limit.
A complication, which has not yet been raised in this debate, is that someone’s income has to be adjusted in order to determine whether they are above or below that limit. There are adjustments. For example, they can reduce their declared income in this respect by 50% of any pension contributions they may make. They can adjust the amount of income that they compare to the limit for any equipment that they purchase in respect of their caring obligations. There are also travel costs. If someone is self-employed, various business costs can also see a reduction in the level of income. This lies at the heart of why there is a challenge in notifying people of whether they are above or below the earnings limit, because it is impossible, at the centre, to determine the answer to that question, for the reasons that I have given.
The right hon. Gentleman espouses the benefits of cross-party working in an interesting way. Whatever adjustments are made to the earnings limit, will he join those on the Liberal Democrat Benches in asking the Minister to allow a higher level of earnings? That is the crucial factor that prevents so many people who badly need carer’s allowance from getting it.
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, and of course the motion states that there should be an increase—an unspecified amount, but it is there none the less. I think the answer to his question is that it is a balance, because the higher we put up the earnings limit and the more generous we are to carers, which of course is something we all want to do, the more people can earn and the longer they can work. Potentially, therefore, if this is acting as a proxy for the amount that people are working, they might not have the real time to spend 35 hours a week caring for a loved one. So it is inevitably a balance. I certainly accept that this is worth reviewing, and I note that the Minister for Social Security and Disability, the right hon. Member for East Ham (Sir Stephen Timms), when he chaired the Work and Pensions Committee, called forcefully for a significant increase in the level of carer’s allowance.
The right hon. Gentleman has obviously set out a number of the adjustments that need to be made, but in doing so he has outlined just how complex the system is and therefore exactly why we have had the scandal in the first instance. Does he agree that we should be asking the Minister to ensure that in the carer’s allowance review we simplify this process? I can assure him that many unpaid carers are not doing 35 hours a week.
Indeed. What we want, ideally, is a system that is as simple as possible. The motion suggests that we bring in a taper, but that would be a complication of the system. I will come to why there are problems with that. It is easy to suggest these things, but the detail often makes them really quite complicated.
The last Government made it clear, when someone applied for this particular benefit, exactly what the arrangements were. When uprating occurred every year, we wrote to everybody to explain the uprating and to inquire as to whether any changes in their circumstances or earnings might impact their entitlement to benefits. And it was we, not this Government, who in our May update to our fraud plan brought in the pilots for texting to alert those on carer’s allowance that they may—I say “may” because the Department will not know—be close to exceeding the earnings limit. I am pleased that the Minister has indicated that the Government will continue with our fine work, but let us be very clear who it was that started those particular measures.
On that point, would the right hon. Member therefore accept that the Department for Work and Pensions is in a complete mess and that unpaid carers in our constituencies are having to pay the price and bear the brunt of that because the system is clearly not working for them?
No, I would not. I am not ruling out the possibility that it may yet become a mess, but certainly on our watch it was never a mess. In fact, it dispenses about £280 billion-worth of transfer payments both to pensioners and through the benefits system, and by and large it does a remarkable job in doing that efficiently. I want to pay tribute to all the officials and civil servants that work in that Department. They work incredibly hard and, for the vast majority of their time, produce outstanding results. None the less, of course, we can always point to elements of the system where things break down, and we must always strive to get better. That is why I welcome the Government’s review.
The suggestion that the Government should not seek the repayment of overpayments is absurd. We cannot go that far. If someone goes over a threshold, we cannot say, “Do not worry about it.” We might as well not have the threshold in the first place. By all means, change the threshold—that may be a perfectly legitimate thing to do. Otherwise, the threshold should be removed altogether.
Some Members will perfectly legitimately raise failings in the system, but when I was Secretary of State there were examples of fraud. For instance, one individual was working 100 hours a week as a taxi driver while apparently still having the time to spend 35 hours a week looking after a loved one. To my mind, that is clearly fraud, so we cannot write off absolutely everything. The Department does the right thing by looking at this issue on a case-by-case basis.
If a carer receives a bonus from their employer for doing a good job and it takes them over the threshold, should they lose their carer’s allowance?
Quite possibly not, which is why the Department operates on a case-by-case basis. That is the correct approach, rather than a blanket approach that says it does not matter if someone goes over the threshold. As I said, if there is never going to be a requirement for repayment, we might as well not have a threshold at all. In some cases, going over the threshold is egregious. The Government know this, and they will have to take it into account.
When he was Secretary of State, did the right hon. Gentleman ask what proportion of overpayments were due to egregious fraud and what proportion were due to being a small amount over the earnings limit?
It is difficult to give a precise answer; what does the right hon. Gentleman mean by “a small amount over the earnings limit”? We know that, for the vast majority of the thousands of people in this situation, it will almost certainly be small amounts, including some very small amounts. None the less, fraud and error are a significant challenge across the benefits system, and need to be addressed. Any responsible Government will take that approach. Simply to say, “We have a problem, so we should take off the brakes and have no limit. We should let people claim what they like, whatever it might be, even if it is fraud”, as suggested by the leader of the Liberal Democrats, is not viable.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
I will give way, but I invite the right hon. Gentleman to explain how he would deal with fraud when he is pushing for none of the overpayments to be returned.
I made it very clear in my speech that there could be examples of fraud, so I ask the right hon. Gentleman to check the record. I could not have been clearer, and we have talked about this at length in other fora—indeed, we made it clear at the general election.
I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman has shown to the House that he failed to get a grip of this issue when he was Secretary of State. He recognises that the vast majority of overpayments were small amounts, often because the DWP, in which he was Secretary of State, did not pass on information to HMRC. I am afraid that he is digging a hole for himself.
Regardless of what the right hon. Gentleman may or may not have said in his opening remarks, the text of the motion cannot be disputed. On the point of whether anyone should be expected to repay, the motion says that this House
“believes that carers should not be forced to face the stress, humiliation and fear caused by demands for repayments of Carer’s Allowance”.
To me, that suggests everyone. The motion goes on to say that the Government should “write-off existing overpayments immediately”. It is clear and obvious that that would include any fraudulent payments.
It may be that the earnings limit could be increased, but there would be a fiscal cost. Indeed, the Liberal Democrat manifesto reforms would cost about £1.5 billion, which is significant. We would have to take account of the balance between being more generous to carers and respecting the 35-hour rule, if that remains.
Finally, whenever there is a cliff edge, it is suggested that tapering will solve the problem, but that neglects the fact that it introduces complexity, which is the very thing that universal credit, for example, was designed to iron out. The system was like spaghetti, and nobody could quite understand how it worked. In the tax system, for example, the personal allowance tapers away after £100,000. Many people just stop working further when they reach that level of earnings, because it is not worth their while, given the marginal tax rate.
There is an interplay between universal credit and carer’s allowance, because people who earn more will end up having their carer’s allowance withdrawn. There is already a taper within carer’s allowance to make sure that work pays, so that as people earn more, their benefit is reduced but not sufficiently to make them worse off. Under the system advocated by the Liberal Democrats, there will be two tapers in two interacting benefits, which I do not think would best serve anybody, least of all carers.
Madam Deputy Speaker is seeking my conclusion. I welcome this motion, and like other parties in this House, we stand four-square behind our carers, who do an extraordinary job. I wish the Government well with their review, which we will consider seriously and objectively, as we are all on the side of carers. I stand by our record in office, of which I am proud.
I very much welcome the Minister’s opening comments. It is clear that she is fully cognisant of many of the issues that I am about to raise. I also welcome the announcement of the independent Government review of carer’s allowance overpayments, which I hope will be carried out urgently. I hope it will consider writing off substantial overpayments, where it is clear that carers should have been notified sooner.
On the wider issues faced by unpaid carers, I start by reading out an email from a constituent:
“I cared for my mother, who had Alzheimer’s and vascular dementia plus severe osteoarthritis, for several years. At the time of this, if the person requiring care was deemed capable of performing any self-care tasks, only part of the Carer’s Allowance was paid. My mother would, occasionally, wipe a flannel over her face and was therefore deemed to be capable of self-care, despite all other evidence.
Caring for someone is not a 9 to 5 job, it is often a 24 hour job, as in my case, with no break for the carer (as few are ever told about respite care). Those who manage employment outside the home are also overburdened, as they have no time to decompress from their paid employment before having to spend their time at home caring for someone.
Due to the nature of being a carer, the carer’s physical and mental health often declines and goes untreated as they often have no help with their situation from the Authorities or, should they have them, siblings. That alone can impact the carer’s own physical and mental health, but carers go unnoticed until there is a crisis.
To only receive the paltry current Carer’s Allowance, which will barely cover utilities and Council Tax, ignoring food and clothing, is an insult to people who are working far harder than most but remain unseen as it is not deemed to be a ‘real job’ and is considered ‘easy.’ Only those who have cared for another adult know this is blatantly untrue.”
Sadly, my constituent’s feelings are not rare. Many people care for their loved ones out of love and, all too often, it impacts on their ability to work, resulting in many living in poverty. A new report from Carers UK and WPI Economics found that 1.2 million unpaid carers are living in poverty, while one in 10 of all carers are in deep poverty. It is not hard to understand why, as carer’s allowance is the lowest benefit of its kind—currently, just £81.90 a week—and it is available only to carers who can prove that they provide more than 35 hours of unpaid care a week.
Does my hon. Friend agree that the evidence shows that it is disproportionately women who are carers, and therefore women who experience those levels of poverty because of the low figure she mentioned?
I welcome my hon. Friend’s comments and I agree with them.
To solve the crisis, Care UK’s modelling suggests that an immediate uplift, an increase in the earnings limit and an earnings taper would lift huge numbers out of poverty. However, a number of brutal loopholes, already highlighted by the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Ed Davey), need to be addressed urgently, including the rules on young carers and students. Many people do not know that carer’s allowance is not paid to those studying for more than 21 hours a week. A number of young carers in Salford have told me that that means they are often excluded from any support. The pressures on them to study and care for their loved ones are immense, all while often living in extreme poverty. Sadly, many feel they have no option but to leave education aged 16.
Further, if a carer is looking after more than one person for a cumulative amount of 35 hours a week, the carer is not eligible to receive carer’s allowance. If two people share the care, each providing 35 hours a week, only one person can claim carer’s allowance.
I support the sentiment that we need more funding and support for carers—more finance, more money—but the email the hon. Lady read out powerfully showed that it is not just money that carers need. They need much broader support to give respite and relief, and to allow them to address their own mental health concerns that arise from their job, as well as support to stay in education longer, as she mentioned. Although money is important, does she agree that carers need the much wider community support that charities and other local groups can give?
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. Unfortunately, the ability of local authorities to reach out to carers who are struggling and directly offer them the respite care they should be entitled to has been hampered, certainly in the past 10 to 14 years. The burden of stepping in has been left to many charities. For those who live in an area with a large charitable presence, that is fantastic, but unfortunately not a lot of unpaid carers live in such areas. That is an issue that the Government must grapple with.
Another brutal issue, which is relatively unknown, is that of pensions. As far as I am aware, carer’s allowance does not get paid to those in receipt of the state pension, unless the state pension amount is lower than the weekly value of carer’s allowance. As with the pension credit threshold, at the moment a huge number of people are just over the cusp of eligibility; they live in poverty but cannot access the help they need.
There is another brutal loophole for pensioners receiving care. The Government website currently states:
“When you get Carer’s Allowance, the person you care for will usually stop getting: a severe disability premium paid with their benefits”
or
“an extra amount for severe disability paid with Pension Credit”.
That left one of my constituents, whose daughter provides care but does not live with her, in a situation where she is not entitled to the top-up in pension credit that she should be entitled to, which she needs to survive and to deal with her daily living costs as a severely disabled person.
I wanted to highlight those points, but I will bring my comments to a close as many colleagues want to speak. I welcome the encouraging comments made by my hon. Friends on the Government Front Bench. I encourage them to address the loopholes that have been mentioned urgently and, as I am sure they are doing already, to encourage action from the Chancellor at the upcoming Budget, so that we can provide the financial and social support our unpaid carers desperately need.
Order. This is a heavily subscribed debate and I am determined to get everybody in, so this is fair warning. After the next speaker, Back Benchers will be limited to three minutes and maiden speeches will be limited to five minutes. These will be hard limits to ensure everybody gets in after our next speaker, Wendy Chamberlain, who has unlimited time.
I declare an interest as I am in the process of joining the board of Fife Carers in an unpaid capacity; it is a privilege to join the organisation. I have worked with unpaid carers throughout the past few years, as constituency MP for North East Fife and through the passage of my private Member’s Bill that became the Carer’s Leave Act 2023. If hon. Members want to learn more widely about carers, they may wish to read my Adjournment debate on the subject, which took place in the first few weeks of this Parliament, where I talked about the need for a strategy on carers to ensure that carers get the cross-cutting governmental and departmental support they need.
I will not touch on the overpayments scandal specifically, but I welcome the announcement of the review after months of campaigning by my dear friend the Leader of the Liberal Democrat party, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Ed Davey), as well as by the Liberal Democrats, carer charities and journalists. However, I want to raise some points about the carer’s allowance more generally.
I recently asked the Minister responsible for carer’s allowance, the right hon. Member for East Ham (Sir Stephen Timms), a written question about a review of how carer’s allowance is working. The response said:
“This government will keep eligibility criteria and processes of Carer’s Allowance under review, to see if it is meeting its objectives.”
That response poses more questions than it provides answers. What are the Government’s objectives for carer’s allowance? Are they ever reviewed? How do they know if they are meeting them? What metrics are being used? What would happen if it was found that the objectives were not being met?
I assume that the objective of carer’s allowance is to keep unpaid carers out of poverty, given the additional barriers they face to working and the additional costs they face through their caring. I also assume that we want to help unpaid carers to stay linked to the workplace, if possible, through part-time work or training. On any assessment, carer’s allowance is failing these objectives. It is a failure when a third of households in receipt of carer’s allowance are classed as food insecure, compared with 10% of households as a whole; when Carers UK research from 2019 found that 600 people per day who were caring were giving up work; and when the rate of poverty among unpaid carers is 50% higher than among non-carers.
One immediate remedy that could be considered, as is set out in our motion, is an increase in carer’s allowance. It may not seem much in the big scheme of things, but during the pandemic we saw the impact of the £20 uplift to universal credit, which delivered an immediate and marked fall in food bank use.
We must do all we can to support people into work and to stay in work, so that they are not relying on carer’s allowance to get by. That point refers to the earnings allowance, which stops carers from working more than 13 hours a week on the minimum wage before losing carer’s allowance. As has already been discussed, there is no taper rate, so as soon as carers earn a penny more, the allowance goes.
Bizarrely, yearly increases to the allowance are not pegged to changes to the national minimum wage. Historically, people could work for 16 hours before they lost carer’s allowance; some of the scandal we have seen could be because people have continued to make those assumptions. We need to take the complexity out of the system. It is completely reasonable for people to assume that if they are earning national minimum wage and receiving carer’s allowance in one financial year, they can continue to do so in the following financial year, as long as they do not increase their hours, but that is not how the system works. The national minimum wage went up by 9.8% this year, but the earnings allowance did not go up at all. That sounds to me like a system set up to make people fail.
Should we not be enabling people to take on more hours and to progress in their jobs if they can? We know that often people—especially those who are below or near the poverty line, as too many unpaid carers are—are scared to risk losing their benefits in case that does not work out. One of the unseen outcomes of the scandal is that people are simply not looking for work or to get into employment because they are scared about the consequences.
Many young carers have high levels of absence from school and there are barriers to them accessing education. Potentially, if we do not help them to claim carer’s allowance when they are entitled to do so, they will never go into work and be able to make a contribution. Fife Young Carers, in my constituency, supports people up to the age of 25. We want to encourage young carers to complete their education so they have the best possible options later.
To return to my cross-cutting strategy, the Department for Work and Pensions may think that it is for the Department for Education to support young people. However, as the hon. Member for Salford (Rebecca Long Bailey) said, under the under-21 rule, doing a vocational qualification could preclude somebody from receivi