My Lords, before I endeavour to explain the provisions of the Bill which I shall ask leave to introduce, it may be desirable that I should say something on the subject of the steps that have been taken under the Board of Education Bill which was passed last year, in order that the House may see under what central organisation the local authorities proposed to be constituted by this Bill will have to act. The main object of the Board of Education Bill was to unite in one office the two Educational Departments which previously existed under the names of the Education Office and the Science and Art Department, and at the same time to bring under the administration of the newly-constituted board some of the duties which had hitherto been discharged by the Charity Commissioners and, to a minor degree, some of the duties of the Board of Agriculture. Last year I said that a Departmental Committee had been appointed to inquire into the changes in the staff and organisation of the Education and Science and Art Departments which would be necessary in order to establish closer relations between them. That Committee consisted of Sir H. Walpole, chairman, Sir G. Kekewich, Sir W. Abney, Mr. S. Spring-Rice and Mr. Tucker, and Mr. Fearon, secretary of the Charity Commission, was subsequently added. It will not be necessary for me. I think to refer in detail to any of the recommendations of that Committee. Their labours have been of great value, and I am greatly indebted to them for the thorough examination they have made into all the arrangements of the Departments and for the labour which they have-bestowed in making their inquiries. Many of their recommendations have been, or are being, carried into effect, and I have no doubt that they will greatly tend to simplify the work and increase the efficiency of the administration of the office. There was one point, however, which could not be relegated to any Committee, however ably constituted. Your Lordships may remember that on the Bill of last year some discussion took place upon the future organisation of the Education Department. I thought at the time, and I am still more strongly of opinion now, that that discussion was some what premature. It proceeded on the assumption that the organisation of the new office would continue on the same lines as those which had existed when the educational Departments were separate and distinct, and that there would be in the now office two divisions, one of which would correspond with and carry on the work of the old Education Office in connection with elementary education, and the other of which would carry on the work of the Science and Art Department. An apprehension, perhaps not altogether unreasonable, was felt on the part of the secondary schools and those responsible for their management that the new powers which were conferred by the Act upon the Board of Education would be simply transferred to one or other of these divisions, and that they would be administered in accordance with the traditions which had for many years grown up and become established in both Departments. It was urged that a third division should be constituted to which the administration of secondary schools, so far as they came under the control of the new board, should be entrusted. I gave at that time an undertaking that, in framing the organisation of the new Department, I would have in view a triple rather than a dual division. I have said that I considered that the discussion was somewhat premature, and I have also to acknowledge that I think the undertaking or understanding which I then indicated was somewhat imprudent on my part. At all events, I have not been able to adhere to it literally, but I have endeavoured to adhere to it in spirit. That I intended to adhere to it literally is proved by the fact that, in the supplementary instructions given to the Committee, they were expressly directed to have regard to the undertaking of the Government to establish a third branch of the Education Office to deal with secondary education. In order to explain the reasons which have induced me to modify my views on this subject I must refer shortly to the relations which have hitherto existed between the old Education Department and the secondary schools and those which might be expected to grow up under the Act, and consider the nature of the work which could with advantage be transferred to the third division. The training colleges which have been subsidised and administered by the Education Department are in the nature of secondary schools, and it is quite possible that in time, when the unification of offices has been brought nearer completion, it may be possible to recognise them as secondary schools, and to regard their administration as a portion of secondary educational work. The training colleges are so closely connected with elementary schools that their administration must, for the present, remain as it is, and no change in respect to that administration can be carried out without a great deal of further consideration. Then, again, the high grade elementary schools which have been established by many school boards give an instruction which in many respects differs very little from secondary instruction. Some day it may be possible to draw a line of demarcation, which does not exist at present, between that education which is recognised as elementary, which is aided as elementary education by the State, and which may legitimately be provided by school boards or Voluntary school managers, and that recognised as secondary, which ought to be administered by other local authorities than school boards. A step has been taken towards drawing that line of demarcation by a Minute recently issued establishing higher elementary schools. But a great deal remains to be done before this line can be definitely drawn; and while many may be of opinion that the school boards have, in a great many cases, trespassed too far on the domain of secondary education, and while the Department may be considered to have been too lax in permitting such trespasses, there are, it must be admitted, great excuses for such encroachment, owing to the fact that the Legislature has never, up to the present time, provided anything in the nature of local secondary education authorities, and that school board work has been a work which could, in the present state of the law, not be done by anyone else. This is a deficiency which I hope the Bill I now ask leave to introduce may to some extent remedy. But until some such measure is passed, and the line I have referred to has been definitely drawn, it would be extremely inexpedient to attempt to place school boards under dual administration in respect of elementary work and that part of it which may more properly be considered to be of a secondary character. These to which I have referred are forms of secondary education with which the old Education Department has been connected, and in my opinion it would be undesirable, if it were not impossible, that the connection between the Elementary branch of the Office and these forms of education should be summarily severed. There are, however, other forms of 'secondary education with which the Science and Art Department has already established relations. By a scheme of examination and a grant depending on those examinations, it has influenced the course of education in a largo number of secondary schools, it has also established more direct relations, not only with detached classes and courses of lectures, but with schools which, under the name of schools of science, have been subsidised, or in many cases almost wholly maintained, by grants from the Science and Art Department. The most important work in respect of secondary education which may at present devolve on the Board will be the development of these schools of science. They are institutions which have been founded under the guidance and with the assistance of the late Science and Art Department. They have been founded by county councils, or, in large towns, by borough councils. Or, again, they are in many cases endowed schools existing under schemes of the Charity Commissioners, the governing bodies of which have brought their schools into connection with, and have been receiving subsidies from, the Science and Art Department. The relations between these schools and the scientific experts of the late Science and Art Department cannot be broken off, and must remain practically under the administration of the same persons, although, perhaps, under a somewhat different organisation. My Lords, I have given a brief, but, I am afraid, imperfect statement of the existing relations between the Education Department and secondary schools. The Act of last year, however, provides for the extension of those relations. It provides for the eventual transfer to the Board of Education of all the powers of the Charity Commission. It has been considered expedient, however, that this transfer should be gradual and tentative. The Order in Council now on the Table of the House is the first instalment of such transfer. The terms of that Order are necessarily extremely technical, and I do not know that it is necessary that I should attempt on this occasion to explain them in detail. I may say, however, that the first clause applies to England and Wales generally, and enables the Education Board to exercise, concurrently with the Charity Com- missioners, their powers of administration and inspection. That is a power which it was necessary the Board of Education should have, to enable them to make complete and effectual the educational inspection of such schools as might desire to place themselves in connection with the Board. The second clause makes a more complete transfer. It transfers, with certain exceptions, the powers at present exercised by the Charity Commissioners with regard to educational endowments regulated by schemes within the area of Wales and Monmouthshire. This is an area in which jurisdiction over educational endowments could be easily transferred without prejudice to continued temporary jurisdiction over similar endowments in England. Owing to the Welsh Intermediate Education Act, Wales already possesses a local organisation for secondary education, with whom the central authority will at once enter into relations, whereas in England such bodies have still to be created; and the experience gained by the Board in dealing with a limited area would prepare it for exercising similar powers throughout the country. The result of this review of the work, present and prospective, of the Board of Education in connection with secondary education was to convince us that little could be transferred from the control of the officials now engaged in its-administration to a third division. The duties of such a division would in the main be limited to the new work which would devolve on the Board under the Act of last year. It appeared to be scarcely worth while to create a new division solely for the purpose of work taken over from the Charity Commissioners, or for inspection of older secondary schools wishing to bring themselves into connection with the Board and submit to its examinations. It is probable that the great majority of these desire to enter into such connection on account of the impulse which may thereby be given to the newer order of studies, and the division charged with their inspection would have to rely mainly on the assistance of the scientific experts who would be connected with the other divisions of the Department. At the same time the schoolmasters and those who are engaged in the management of secondary schools appear to some extent to have modified their own views. Not very long ago I received an important deputation in which the University of Oxford, the Headmasters' Conference, and the Headmasters' Association were represented, and their object was to urge that in the organisation of the office no hard-and-fast line ought to be drawn between the literary and scientific sides of instruction and the inspection of literary and scientific instruction. They did not, I admit, altogether abandon the position which was taken up by the school authorities last year, but they appeared to be conscious that the representations they were then putting forward were not altogether consistent with the position they had taken up last year. The deputation also strongly urged that a separation should be made between what is termed technology and literary or scientific instruction. This view is one which is also strongly held by those who have been chiefly associated in the promotion of technological study. The City and Guilds of London Institute, for instance, have urged upon the Department that the distinctive difference between the teaching of science as a part of general education and the teaching of science in its application to special industries ought to be recognised, and that the office ought to be arranged with this distinction in view. For the reasons which I have endeavoured to indicate, we now propose to revert to a dual organisation of the office, but not entirely upon the lines of the late Education and Science and Art Departments. The principal officers of the Department which we propose will be a principal permanent secretary, who will supervise generally the whole work of the Department. It must be remembered, when special importance is attached to this or that minor subordinate appointment, that it will be the permanent secretary who will be responsible to the President of the Board for the administration of the whole Department, and that it is impossible, and would be undesirable even if it were possible, that the office should be divided into what I may call water-tight compartments, the head of each of which would be charged with special duties and no other, and that the idea should be entertained that the work of the office should be carried on in separate departments, which should have no connection or relation with each other. We propose that under the principal permanent secretary there shall be two principal assistant secretaries—one mainly charged with duties in connection with elementary, and the other with secondary, education. We propose to abolish the name "Science and Art Department." The Science and Art Department will be merged in the secondary education branch of the office. As soon as it may be possible we propose to transfer the greater part of the staff of the late Science and Art Department from South Kensington to Whitehall, except such part of it as it may be necessary to leave at South Kensington for the administration of the museum and the colleges of science and art. In place of the third division that was contemplated, we now propose to give the principal assistant secretary of secondary education two additional assistant secretaries, one of whom will be chiefly charged with the supervision and control of literary instruction, and the other of technological study. This is not the organisation, I admit, to which I partly committed myself last year; but I trust that it may, in substance, meet the views, especially the later views, which have been expressed to me by high educational authorities. With the name we hope to get rid of many of the traditions which were supposed to attach to the old Science and Art Department—traditions which have, I believe, been regarded as opposed to the true interests of education by many of those who have been responsible for the management of the older endowed schools. The original idea of the Science and Art Department was, or at all events was supposed to be, that by means of lectures, classes, and examinations a knowledge of the principles of science and art, which would be valuable to the students themselves and to the nation at large, could be engrafted upon almost any kind of previous elementary or secondary training. It is quite true that this idea has been in recent years very largely modified, but I do not think that it is yet generally known how far the original traditions of the Science and Art Department have been already departed from. We hope and intend that the idea of the future education branch of the office will be to make science and art instruction a part of general education in addition to those classical and literary studies which have hitherto formed its main portion. In the schools and institutions directly assisted by the Board of Education the teaching of science and of art, with the addition, perhaps, of some commercial subjects, will probably remain the principal object. But, on the other hand, in those secondary schools, whether of older or more modern type, which desire to enter into connection with the Board there ought not to be, and there need not be, any interference with the older classical and literary studies so long as there continues to be a demand for them. At the same time, we hope that the scientific resources of the Board will be placed at their disposal if they desire, as many of them do desire, to develop the more modern sides of instruction and education. If I may put the case in another way, I conceive that the apprehension that was felt and given expression to last year was that the tendency to interference by the Education Department with secondary teaching would be in the direction of substituting scientific for classical studies, and next that scientific studies would only be regarded from the point of view of their commercial value. As I have said, it probably will be the case that any interposition of the Board in regard to secondary education will be in the direction of endeavouring to substitute more modern for the older studies, but it ought not to be difficult to find administrators of sufficiently wide knowledge and experience to make the latter result impossible. In connection with this point it may be of interest to the House to know what are the principal appointments which have been made or are proposed to be made in the principal office of the new secondary education branch of the department. Sir George Kekewich, the late secretary of the Board of Education, has become the permanent principal secretary of the new Board, and it is he who will be responsible to the President of the Board and to the Government for the administration of the Department as a whole. The principal assistant secretary for secondary education will be Sir William Abney, who has done more than any other man in extending the studies of the schools of science under the Science and Art Department. Under him the assistant secretary, who will be chiefly concerned with the literary side of instruction, will be Mr. Bruce, an Assistant Commissioner to the Charity Commission under the Endowed Schools Act, who has been chiefly engaged and has obtained much experience in the administration of the Welsh Intermediate Education Act. The assistant secretary for technological study has not yet been appointed. I come now to a brief statement of the objects of the Bill which I am asking leave to introduce. I will defer any explanation of detail until the text of the Bill is before your Lordships; but the Bill is based on foundations that already exist, and indeed it contains very little beyond the proposals which were contained in the Bill of 1896, so far as that Bill related to secondary education. Local authorities already exist under the Technical Instruction Act of 1889 and the Local Taxation Act of 1890, with limited powers of aiding and supervising technical and manual instruction as a part of secondary education. Those authorities are county councils, county borough councils, the councils of non-county boroughs, and urban district councils. The resources which they possess are the proceeds of a penny rate and a sum derived from the local taxation account, which now amounts to over £800,000 a year. The county councils and the county boroughs are alone the recipients of the sums derived from the local taxation fund. The Bill proposes to extend these existing foundations. In the first place it will make the application of the local taxation money to educational purposes compulsory instead of optional, as it is at present. It will enable the authority to apply both that fund and the rates to the purposes of secondary education generally, not limited to technical or manual instruction. It will, however, require that this shall only be done after adequate provision has been made for technical instruction; and in order not to bring about any sudden change or disruption in the work that has already been going on the authorities will be instructed to have regard to the existing application of the funds to educational purposes. It has been necessary to decide to what authorities acting in what areas the extended powers are to be given. We propose to follow the precedent of the Local Taxation Act, 1890, of the Bill of 1896, and the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Secondary Education, and to entrust these extended powers to county councils and county borough councils, only leaving to the minor authorities the powers which they already enjoy under the Technical Instruction Act. There is nothing in this provision that will prevent the constitution of authorities for other areas, either greater or smaller, if they should be found to be more convenient for educational purposes. The Bill proposes to constitute the education committees which already exist upon a more formal and recognised basis. Suggestions have been made that provision ought to be made in the Bill for the representation on those educational committees of the councils of non-county boroughs and of urban districts, and that the Bill should contain provisions for the representation on the education committees of school boards or other educational interests within the area. We consider, however, that the circumstances of the different districts in the country are so various that to include any provisions of this kind in the Bill which would be applicable alike to all parts of the country would be impracticable, and we thought the difficulty might be bettor solved by providing that these education committees shall be framed by schemes to be submitted to and approved by the Board of Education. The schemes may provide for the constitution of joint committees for areas in more than one county or county borough; or, on the other hand, by the words which are inserted in the Bill "or any part thereof" it is intended to indicate that either by means of sub-committees or otherwise provisions may be made for the management of any smaller area than that of a county or county borough. Under the existing law county councils and urban authorities have each the power to levy a penny rate, and it follows that in some districts which are subject to each authority a rate of twopence may at present be levied for the purposes of technical instruction. The Bill will propose to raise the rating limit to two-pence in all cases, but in no case shall the rate levied by the county and by the local authority combined exceed that amount. In the discussion on the Board of Education Bill last year the denominational question was not altogether excluded. It did not, however, I am happy to say, in relation to that Bill give rise to any very serious difficulty. I wish that might also be the case in regard to the present Bill, but such questions cannot be avoided by simply ignoring them, and we consider it necessary to state clearly in what way these difficulties may arise and how it is proposed to meet them. The Technical Instruction Act of 1889 contains certain instructions on the grants in aid to denominational institutions. The first of these was in the nature of a conscience clause. That appears to be perfectly reasonable, and has been maintained in the present Bill. The second was a provision of a rather remarkable character. I have never been able—the debate having been very imperfectly reported—to ascertain how it came to be introduced, nor what was its precise object. The provision was—

"No religious catechism or religious formulary which is distinctive of any particular denomination shall be taught at any school aided out of the local rate to a scholar attending only for the purposes of technical or manual instruction under this Act, and the times for prayer or religious worship, or for any lesson or series of lessons on a religious subject, shall be conveniently arranged for the purpose of allowing the withdrawal of such scholar therefrom."

"No religious catechism or religious formulary which is distinctive of any particular denomination shall be taught at any school aided out of the local rate to a scholar attending only for the purposes of secondary general education."

My Lords, I think it would be far better to postpone any serious discussion of the Bill until we have it in our hands. It is only fair to the noble Duke, however, to say that I think the arrangement of offices, as far as I can understand the matter, is a very great improvement on the plan which he laid before us last year. With regard to the provisions of the Bill, I should not like to express any opinion at present. I do not at all mean by that to express, in a side way, any unfavourable opinion. The matter is one of great importance, and I think we should have time to consider all the clauses of the Bill. I should suggest to the noble Duke that ten days or a fortnight would not be too long to give your Lordships for an examination of the Bill. Bill to make better provision for enabling county councils and other local authorities to aid forms of education not being elementary—presented by the Lord President (D. Devonshire); read 1^a; and to be printed. (No. 135.)

My Lords, I beg to move for a Return showing the total expenses of the Irish Land Commission for each of the five years ended 31st March, 1896, to 1900. The Irish Land Commission exercises a very important part in our lives in Ireland, and also in the lives of our tenants. I know of no public document readily accessible which gives this Return, and therefore I hope there will be no objection to granting it.

My Lords, the information which the noble Earl asks for is already given, to a great extent, in the annual Appropriation Account which is presented to Parliament every year, the last of which is to 31st March, 1899. That for 1899–1900 will be presented in due course, but I may tell the noble Lord that the net expenditure for that year was, approximately, £125,000. There are one or two exceptions, however, in that the salaries of the Chief Commissioners are not shown in the Appropriation Account. They are charged to the Consolidated Fund, and amount to about £14,000. In addition to the amounts shown in the Appropriation Account there are certain items for office accommodation, stationery, printing, etc., the details of which will be found set forth in the annual Estimate for the Land Commission. I think if the noble Earl will look up those documents he will get all the, information he requires.

May I ask the noble Earl if those different items might be consolidated? This would give us the Return in a very simple form.

I will inquire of the Irish Office, but the answer I have given to the noble Earl was the answer which I obtained to his question.

The items are all mixed up at present, and if they were consolidated it would save us a great deal of trouble.

I will inquire.

My Lords, I rise to call the attention of the House to what the Press has described as the "St. Pancras Scandal"; and to ask the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, who has special authority and responsibility in relation to the care of lunatics in this country, whether it is proposed to take any, and what, proceedings in the matter. Looking to the hour which has been reached my observations will be brief. Your Lordships are aware that the parish authorities have very important duties to discharge in relation to lunatics within their parish, and that these functions are discharged largely by two sets of officers paid by the parish, called the relieving officer and the medical officer. Some very startling facts have been brought to light in connection with the administration of the lunacy laws in the parish of St. Pancras which certainly do call for public notice, especially as; it appears from the report of the authority itself that the state of things there disclosed has existed for a period of something, approaching thirty years. The remarkable facts connected with the case are mainly three: (1) That the number of persons detained as insane in St. Pancras is some 100 per cent. greater than in the adjoining parish of Islington, according to population; (2) that a much greater number of lunatics- are sent to private asylums from St. Pancras than from the adjoining parish; and (3) that the cost of the maintenance of insane persons in St. Pancras, which falls, of course, upon the ratepayer, is from 100 to 200 per cent. higher than in the adjoining parish. According to the report issued by the Marylebone Vestry, it appears that the total cost to St. Pancras for the half-year ending Lady-day, 1899, was £14,143 17s. 3d. At Islington the cost was £5,543 17s. 4d.—between a half and a third of the cost in St. Pancras. Further, the report states that in Islington, for the whole six months, only six patients were sent from that parish to expensive private licensed houses at the rate of £2 2s. a week, while twenty-seven were sent from St. Pancras to Hoxton House and thirteen to Bethnal House—namely, forty from St. Pancras as against six from Islington. These facts having been tardily drawn to the attention of the vestry, an inquiry was instituted into the matter, and the report discloses what I am now about to mention. I would remind the House of what the duties and the powers of the relieving officers are. A relieving officer may, on his own responsibility, take up—take into custody practically—a person whom he has reason to believe to be insane and dangerous to the public, and without any medical examination, and without authority from anyone, cause such person to be detained for a period of three days, after which time some step must be taken which involves judicial inquiry before a magistrate and a medical examination. It appears that the relieving officers in St. Pancras have, over the long period I have mentioned, been in the habit of receiving, and receiving regularly, as if it were a right, a sum of about five shillings for each medical examination of a person believed to be insane. That is to say, when a relieving officer produced a patient for the purpose of examination to a medical man, that medical man paid him five shillings and sometimes less. When I remind your Lordships that there may be two or even three of such examinations when the medical officer and the magistrate are not able to arrive at a definite conclusion, your Lordships will see that the fees paid in that way may become considerable. Next, the; report ascertains the fact that the medical men who were honourable and high-minded enough to decline to pay these douceurs to the relieving officer for doing that which was merely his duty were, as it were, boycotted by the relieving officer, and persons supposed to be insane were not brought to them for examination. Lastly, the report finds that relieving officers, on taking patients to private asylums, are paid varying fees by the owners of those private asylums— fees varying from 10s. to £1 and sometimes as much as £2. The figures of those detained do not exhaust the working of this corrupt system, because it does not follow that every person who is taken into custody by the relieving officer is pronounced by the medical man and the Justice of the Peace to be a fit subject for further detention; but, whether that is the result or not, the medical officer gets his fee all the same, and the relieving officer who takes the case to his pet medical man also gets his proportion of that fee. I think your Lordships can have little doubt as to the obvious dangers to which this state of things gives rise. What is most significant is the statement in the report adopted by the St. Pancras Vestry, that there is reason to think that the system is not confined to St. Pancras, but is very general. Since this notice appeared on your Lordships' Paper, I have been waited upon by a member of the vestry of St. Matthews, Bethnal Green, and I will tell your Lordships the result of the communication made to me by him. That vestry found that there existed this dishonest state of relations between their salaried officer and the medical officer and the owners of these private asylums. They drew the attention of the Local Government Board to it as far back as September, 1899. They also drew the attention of the Lunacy Commissioners to it, but the latter replied that they had no authority to deal with the matter. All they could do would be to give warning to the owners of these private asylums that they must not continue to give these douceurs or bribes to the relieving officers. It was not until much later that an inquiry took place by an inspect or appointed by the Local Government Board. What the Local Government Board contemplate doing I know not, but I am informed that up to this time they have done nothing. I would like to read to your Lordships two documents. The first is the statement of the relieving officers of Bethnal Green in their own defence. They say, with some naiceté—

"In order that there may be no misunderstanding on the part of the Board as to our position, and also, if possible, to avoid the trouble and indignity of question and cross-question, we beg to set forth herein the facts of the matter, which we declare to be the truth."

"The examinations being now conducted by district medical officers, these gentlemen have, in the full exercise of their own free will and judgment, chosen to hand us respectively at the end of each quarter—"

—"a sum varying in amount, but usually equal to 5s. for each £1 1s. received for lunacy examination work during the preceding quarter."

"As to the allegations made with reference to occasional fees being received from private asylums—to wit, Hoxton House and Bethnal Green—the simple fact is that when it is not possible to secure vacancies for cases in the county asylums it has been, and is, the custom of the authorities of these local asylums, through their respective secretaries, to give to the officer concerned an honorarium— at Hoxton House of £2 2s. and at Bethnal Green of £2."

"Dear Doctor Burdoe,—As a matter of very i great urgency I ask you to let me have £1 of next quarter's affair. We have seven cases, and I am going after another one to-night. I do sincerely trust that you will endeavour to oblige."

"If the facts were as stated an offence of a very serious character had been committed, both by the officials in question and by the persons who were alleged to have given the bribes."

My Lords, I do not think the noble and learned Lord has at all overstated the seriousness of the matters to which he has called attention. I should say at once that the attention of the Commissioners in Lunacy was called to the Bethnal Green case as long ago as last November. They took exactly the same view as the noble and learned Lord does, and invited the Public Prosecutor to consider whether or not there ought to be a prosecution of the persons concerned. The Public Prosecutor, after taking the opinion of counsel, came to the conclusion that the particular section of the Act to which the noble and learned Lord has called attention would not reach those persons who are in the ambit of animadversion. My own attention has been drawn to the matter this year by the Lunacy Commissioners in connection with an amending Lunacy Bill which passed through your Lordships' House on 9th March last. After the Bill had left the House I received from the Commissioners a draft clause, which they suggested, providing that if the proprietor or manager of a house licensed under the principal Act should offer, or cause to be offered, any gift to any person as an inducement to bring any lunatic to the house, he should be guilty of a misdemeanour. I regret to say that the Bill has not been read a second time in the House of Commons. It is, I believe, a measure urgently demanded, not only in regard to the particular matter now brought under review, but on other and general grounds. Looking at the period of the session, I am afraid the Bill is in peril, and so long as the House of Commons permits its business to be delayed by one or two persons who may have particular objections, so long, I am afraid, will great public evils continue to exist. This is, I think, the third time that the Bill has passed through your Lordships' House, and it has not yet had an opportunity of passing into law. Unless some legislation with regard to this subject is placed on the Statute-book the evil will continue to increase. I do not think that the noble and learned Lord has at all exaggerated the matter. If anything, he has understated it. My own belief is that the evil is much more widespread than is supposed, and the facilities with which sometimes certificates of insanity are signed is one of the things which the Bill to which I have referred is intended to correct. This is another branch of the system of corruption to which the noble and learned Lord has previously called attention, and I hope most sincerely that the Bill will pass, and that it will be rendered penal both to give and receive money for these purposes. The case to which the noble and learned Lord has drawn attention occurred since the Bethnal Green case, and there is reason to believe that there are many other cases in which the same system prevails. I only regret that for some technical reasons, with which I need not trouble your Lordships, the Public Prosecutor and the learned counsel whom he consulted were of opinion that under the particular circumstances of this case an indictment would not have a chance of being successful. In a case of this sort an unsuccessful indictment is an extremely dangerous thing, and therefore the Public Prosecutor was quite right in not instituting a prosecution. But no such objection could be raised if the clause to which I have referred had been passed into law. I can only say that the noble and learned Lord has done a public service in calling attention to the matter, and I hope it will not be forgotten in the House of Commons when the question of the Lunacy Bill is under debate.

I should like to ask the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack whether he can give us any information as to any action taken by the Local Government Board. I read that these officers had not been dismissed. If that is the case, it is a most outrageous proceeding. If it is really the case that an important local body in this city have deliberately condoned an offence of this kind and have continued in office persons who have been guilty of these most abominable practices, then if the Local Government Board possesses any powers to deal with that body and to compel them to do their duty, that power ought to be exercised. If, on the other hand, the Local Government Board cannot compel that body to do its duty, the sooner the law is altered the bettor.

I should like to correct a misapprehension under which the noble Earl who has just spoken is labouring. I stated that the local authority had no power to dismiss the officials of their own motion, but that they required the authority and concurrence of the Local Government Board.

Yes; but did they ask for it? That is the point.

I believe it is the case that a censure was passed on the officials by the local authority. I am not aware that any application was made to the Local Government Board for their dismissal. With reference to what the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack has said, I would remind the House that I have read the language used by the Attorney General a few days ago in the other House upon the very facts which I have mentioned. I do not wish to set up my opinion, not having thoroughly considered the matter, against that of the counsel whom the Public Prosecutor consulted; but, as at present advised, my opinion is that the case comes within the statute known as Lord R. Churchill's Act, and I would suggest that the Lord Chancellor should ask the opinion of the Law Officers on that point.

Not unnaturally, my mind was more particularly directed to that for which I am responsible, and I have in consequence omitted to state that I have received a communication from the Local Government Board on the subject. It states that the guardians of the parish of St. Pancras have forwarded to the Local Government Board a report in connection with this matter, from which it appears that the guardians have publicly and severely censured the relieving officers and warned them that any recurrence of the offence will result in their immediate suspension from duty. In view of the gravity of the charge, the Board have directed that a careful inquiry shall be held by one of their1 inspectors. The Local Government Board state that the charges in the Bethnal Green case appear to be well founded, but they have not yet given their decision in that case. As it is alleged that similar practices prevail in other parishes, the Local Government Board propose to address a circular letter to boards of guardians on the subject.

My Lords, I rise to ask Her Majesty's Government whether the delay which has occured between the election of a secretary to the Mayo County Council and the ratification of that election by the Local Government Board has been the cause of any additional expense; and, if so, whether such additional expense will be borne by the Local Government Board or the ratepayers of the county; whether for the future it will not be possible in all similar circumstances to oblige candidates to satisfy the Local Government Board that they possess one or other of the qualifications for the post of secretary to a county council, as laid down by the Board's instructions, before presenting themselves before the county council for election instead of after the election, as was in this instance the case. In asking this question I should like also to put another question to the noble Lord of which I have given him private notice—namely, whether before ratifying the appointment the Local Government Board had taken any steps to ascertain the fitness of Mr. D. O'Connor Kelly, the late secretary to the Mayo County Council, for that post, to which he was appointed by the council, and, if not, whether the expense caused by the condition of the accounts when Mr. Kelly resigned the office will be borne by the Local Government Board or the ratepayers. The circumstances are these. On the resignation of the secretary to the Grand Jury (Mr. Blake), Mr. D. O'Connor Kelly was appointed secretary to the county council in his place. I have no reason to doubt the talents of Mr. D. O'Connor Kelly, but apparently they were not such as made him a very efficient secretary to the county council, because the state of business became so bad that the Local Government Board were forced to write a very strong letter to the Mayo County Council setting forth the condition of affairs and begging that the business should be at once put upon a satisfactory footing. Whether in consequence of this letter or not I am not able to say, but at any rate Mr. D. O'Connor Kelly resigned his post, and it was then found that the condition of accounts was such—I wish at once to say that I am only referring to their confusion—that a staff of forty-five clerks had to be sent down by the Local Government Board to put them in a proper condition. The clerks were so long at work that the expense occasioned amounted to something like £1,000. What I want to know is, will this £1,000 be borne by the ratepayers or by the Local Government Board. I have not been able to discover that the Local Government Board took any steps before sanctioning the appointment to ascertain whether Mr. Kelly was competent to fulfil the duties of the office. The Local Government Board must have been perfectly well aware of the circumstances under which the appointment was made. The circumstances of the appointment by the Mayo County Council would not be very interesting to your Lordships, and I will merely say that the gentlemen who made the appointment were men possessing the purest and highest motives of patriotism according to their lights, and that their only object was to save the pockets of the ratepayers whom they represented and whose votes they hoped to got again at the next election. They were, however, under a certain feeling of fear of the most powerful man in Ireland at this moment, Mr. William O'Brien, and, under those circumstances, the Local Government Board should have taken the utmost pains to see that any appointment made by them was really a fitting one. I now come to the questions standing in my name on the Paper. The case is as follows: An advertisement was issued in the newspapers stating that an election of a secretary to the Mayo County Council would take place on a certain date, and this advertisement was signed by the acting secretary who had been sent down by the Local Government Board. It was distinctly stated in that advertisement that no person should be eligible to be appointed to the office unless he had been secretary to another county council, or had proved by examination that he was fitted for the post. Three candidates of importance came before the council. One certainly fulfilled all the conditions laid down in the advertisement. The county council, however, elected a gentleman who had absolutely no qualifications, and when his appointment was communicated to the Local Government Board, that body also ignored the fact that he had passed no examina- tion. They proceeded to set him an examination, and gave him six weeks to prepare for it. I should like to know whether any extra expense was caused by this six weeks delay, which was altogether irregular.

I am afraid a little confusion exists with regard to the noble Earl's questions, because he commences by asking me a question which is not on the Paper. I do not know whether that is what he referred to when he spoke of a question of which he had given mo private notice.

I sent the notice to the Irish Office.

When?

Before the holidays.

I heard of that, but as the noble Lord did not put it on the Paper I understood that he was not going to ask it. I am afraid I have not got a very full answer to the questions asked as to the expense incurred in the unravelling of the accounts referred to. I can only say that the appointment of the late secretary was not ratified by the Local Government Board; on the contrary, the Department refused to ratify it because the late secretary declined to present himself for examination. If the noble Earl wishes me to make further inquiries with regard to the expense incurred I will do so if he will place a question on the Paper.

Then I understand the late secretary was acting solely on the election of the county council, without his appointment being ratified by the Local Government Board?

That is the Report which is given by the Local Government Board. The delay which occurred between the election of a secretary to the Mayo County Council and the ratification of the appointment by the Local Government Board has caused no additional expense either to the county or to the Department. In answer to the other question, the Local Government Board report that it would not be practi- cable to require all the candidates to satisfy them that they are possessed of the requisite qualifications before they present themselves for election.