(" .—(1) The Education Act 1997 shall be amended as follow
(2) For section 43 substitute—
"Provision of careers education in schools and colleges
43.—(1) All registered pupils and students at a school or college to which this section applies must be provided, during the relevant phase of their education, with a programme of careers education.
(2) This section applies to—
(3) It is the duty of each of the following to secure that subsection (1) is complied with, namelyߞ
(4) Each of sections 496 and 497 of the Education Act 1996 (default powers of Secretary of State) shall, in relation to the duty imposed by subsection (3) above, have effect as if any reference to a body to which that section applies included a reference to the proprietors of a school falling within subsection (2)(d) above.
(5) For the purposes of this section the relevant phase of a pupil's or student's education is the period—
(6) In this section—
- "career" includes the undertaking of any training, employment or occupation or any course of education;
- "careers education" means education designed to prepare persons for taking decisions about their careers and to help them implement such decisions;
- "class", in relation to a particular pupil, means—
- (a) the teaching group in which he is regularly taught, or
- (b) if he is taught in different groups for different subjects, such one of those groups as is designated by the head teacher of the school or the principal of the college, the case of a pupil referral unit, by the teacher in charge of the unit."
(3) After section 45 insert—
"Extension or modification of provisions of sections 43 to 45.
45A —(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations extend the scope of operation of section 43 or section 44 by substituting for the period specified in section 43(5) or section 44(10)(a)(i) such other period as is specified.
(2) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision for extending the scope of operation of section 43, 44 or 45 to primary schools or to any specified description of such schools, to secure that a programme of careers education is provided for any specified description of persons attending such institutions."").
The noble Baroness said: The new clause would require the insertion in the Education Act 1997 of a number of new sections requiring post-16 education and training providers to put in place continuing programmes of careers education guidance for 16 to 19 year-olds. Currently the duty relates only to 14 to 16 year-olds, under Section 43(5) of the 1997 Act. Drop-out rates, however, remain very high in the 16 to 19 year-old group and in the transition towards university. Too few students receive sufficient information, advice and guidance about work-based modern apprenticeship options and similar options post-18.
The new sections would require the Secretary of State to secure adequate resources for schools, colleges and bodies providing the Careers Service under Sections 8, 9 and 10 of the Employment and Training Act 1973 and to fulfil this additional duty. Section 46 of the 1997 Act would remain as the provision for the Secretary of State to choose to exercise this power to extend the duty with regard to primary schools and in early secondary years. But the amendment is suggested as an essential part of the joined-up thinking within the Department for Education and Employment by addressing the needs of the post-16 students with continued learning to assist them in making successful future career path decisions and transitions. I beg to move.
The amendment moved so briefly and ably by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp of Guildford, together with Amendment No. 234A seeks to make changes to the provision of careers education in schools and colleges.
Amendment No. 234 would make both pupils and students undergo careers education until they were 19. It would also enable the Secretary of State to extend careers education in primary schools. There is no argument that careers education is important for young people, whether they are still in compulsory education or not. However, there is at present no mandatory subject for post-16s—other than, of course, religious education in schools sixth forms—and we believe that it would be wrong to make formal careers education a requirement for all. The amendment would also give the Secretary of State a specific power to secure careers education for primary school children. Again we think that legislation is not necessary. Section 46(2) of the 1997 Education Act is broad enough to allow that without the amendment. The noble Baroness's second amendment, Amendment No. 234A, seeks to make similar changes but perhaps by a less laborious route. It would provide compulsory careers education for pupils up to the age of 19 and would also put a duty on the Secretary of State to make regulations requiring further education colleges to provide careers education and guidance for their students. Again I am sorry to disappoint the noble Baroness. We do not think that compulsion is either necessary or appropriate. It is better, in our view, that schools and colleges continue to develop their careers education programmes with the support of the new Connexions service.
I thank the Minister for his reply, but I am somewhat disappointed with it. It seems to me that both amendments have some force. However, I will for now withdraw Amendment No. 234 and perhaps return to the matter on Report
.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[ Amendment No. 243A not moved. ]
Amendment No. 235:
Before Clause 109, insert the following new clause—
SEX EDUCATION: MANNER OF PROVISION
(" .—(1) Section 403 of the Education Act 1996 (sex education: manner of provision) shall be amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1) after "family life" insert "and having regard to the following principles—
The right reverend Prelate said: Amendment No. 235 would have the effect of introducing into the Bill a new clause concerned with educational matters. It would amend Section 403 of the Education Act 1996 on the provision of sex education in schools.
The debate in your Lordships' House last week on Section 28 of the Local Government Act and my on Amendment No. 364B ( Hansard, cols. 396 to 437) was lengthy and well argued. I shall therefore try to be brief tonight.
Since that debate, I have been greatly gratified and encouraged by the support I have received for the spirit of that amendment, to which this is parallel, from all parts of this Chamber, the media and people in every part of the United Kingdom. I believe that the Government accept the force of this in the light of the misunderstanding, which continues in the country at large, on the relationship between Section 28 and schools and therefore the corresponding fear that its repeal will open the floodgates to the aggressive promotion of homosexuality on children and young people
Sex education is now rightly a matter for the governors and head teachers of schools, with a parental right of withdrawal, but for that they need clear guidance on the framework of the principles and morality on which such teaching must be based. It is claimed that moral consensus in this area is hard to achieve in our so-called pluralist society. But I have to say that it is my firm conviction that in moving the amendment I speak with the support not only of the Church of England Board of Education, which I chair, the Catholic Education Service, with which I work closely, the other Christian Churches and all the other major faith communities in the United Kingdom, but also of a vast majority of the British people. The ideal and practice of marriage as set out in British law—namely, that between a man and a woman—is the fundamental building block for our society, for family life, and is the proper context for the nurture of children
In addition to the remarks which I made in last week's debate about the commitment of the Secretary of State for Education and Employment, the School Curriculum and Assessment Authority and the PSHE framework document, I am happy to be able to tell the Committee that since the debate I have been in close contact with the Secretary of State, and we hope to meet early next week to pursue this matter
I therefore hope that in her reply the Minister will be able to give me the assurances I seek so that the fears of so many parents and others as to the basis of what is to be taught in our schools by way of sex and personal relationships education can be removed and a more positive approach adopted to this vitally important subject for the good of society now and for future generations. I beg to move
Let me say straightaway that the Government accept the spirit of the amendment moved by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Blackburn. A similar amendment was moved by him when the House debated the repeal of Section 28 of the Local Government Act a week last Monday. His intention then, as it is now, was to seek further to reinforce the moral framework for sex education and to put in place safeguards with regard to the delivery of sex and relationships education in schools, as we did in announcing the revised national curriculum. During the debate, my noble friend Lord Whitty made it clear, as I seek to do now, that the Government agree with much of the substance of what the right reverend Prelate was seeking to achieve.
Much heat has been generated already around this issue. The Government have made clear their intention to repeal Section 28 on the grounds not only that it is bad legislation, but also that it is divisive legislation. It is misunderstood, misquoted and misinterpreted. There is as much misunderstanding about its effect today as there was when it was put on the statute book 12 years ago. Clearly, there are worries about the repeal and, despite the fact that the issue is one of local government legislation, the focus of those worries has centred around the provision of sex and relationships education in schools. We all agree that we need to have in place sensible sex and relationships education in schools. The Secretary of State for Education and Employment has made it clear that the new guidance will be set within the context of the national curriculum and the framework for personal, social and health education announced in September. This sets out that children should be taught about the importance and nature of marriage and family life in bringing up children. The guidance will ensure that pupils are taught to understand human sexuality and to respect themselves and others. This will enable them to understand difference and will help to remove prejudice. The Secretary of State is in ongoing discussions with the right reverend Prelate, Church representatives and faith groups. These are sensitive issues which require further discussion as to the best way to ensure that guidance has greater coherence and force. I should therefore like to give the right reverend Prelate, from the Floor of the Committee, the same reassurance given to him in the earlier debate by my noble friend Lord Whitty. In response to the right reverend Prelate in agreeing to further discussions about sex and relationships education in schools, my noble friend said:I repeat that reassurance and hope that rather than press the amendment today the right reverend Prelate will agree to those further discussions."We hope that in those discussions before the Bill completes its passage through Parliament, we shall have reached an understanding as to what is appropriate for primary legislation and what is appropriate for guidance and perhaps secondary legislation".— [Official Report, 7/2/00; col. 400.]
The Minister must forgive me, but I was passed a note by the Chief Whip, which I always instantly obey, and had no idea that the Minister would rise immediately after the right reverend Prelate
First, I welcome the positive duty to "promote" marriage, as stated in the amendment. I noticed that that word was missing from the Minister's assurances. She spoke of the "importance" of marriage. I welcome a change to the 1996 Act if it is to strengthen it along the lines of promoting marriage. However, a positive duty to promote marriage in no way precludes schools from promoting homosexuality as well. There is no bar on that in this amendment; nor was there such a bar in the amendment that the right reverend Prelate proposed to the Local Government Bill. Therefore, although I support the promotion of marriage, as stated in the amendment, it is no substitute for an argument for repeal of Section 28. The Government have made no secret of their position. They have said that irrespective of a decision in the other place, the will of Parliament or anything else, they will repeal Section 28 because they have the vote to do so. We understand that they intend to use it and that therefore the fate of Section 28 is sealed. But since that debate, I, too, have received a great deal of mail from the Church and from people around the country saying, "Continue the fight to keep Section 28 on the statute book". Indeed, I was surprised by the number of teachers who wrote in as a result of reading the debate. I repeat that the amendment is not a substitute for Section 28. Furthermore, subsection (2)(b)(i) of the proposed new clause, which deals with bullying, confusingly cuts across the provisions of Section 61(4) of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998. That section places a duty on head teachers to prevent bullying for whatever reason; whether the child is fat, thin, from an ethnic minority, is not very bright, or whatever. There is an absolute obligation on schools to produce policies for the prevention of bullying. Throughout the debate last week, and indeed tonight's debate, one aspect has been ignored. The issue is not only about teachers in classrooms with children, but it is also about public money—that is, the money of local authorities—being spent by grant-aid on the bodies which produce materials such as those displayed in the exhibition recently held in the House of Lords. Some of those materials are horrendous and I do not know how they can be supported. But some of them are teaching aids for key stages 1 and 2 and because it comes through a circuitous route from people who are not caught by Section 28, the young people who use the services, the young people at the school gates and the young people outside the classroom are just as vulnerable. The issue is not only about children inside the classroom in the charge of teachers, but also about those outside. Earlier in the week, we were subjected to the horrors revealed in the publication of the report into child abuse in Wales. I simply say this to noble Lords: looking at the record and reflecting on my experience in the Home Office, the majority of paedophilic behaviour is shown to be that of men preying on boys; the majority of incest cases usually involve fathers and girls. Thus, paedophilic homosexual behaviour on young boys is often recorded. A point I raised during our brief discussion on the report when it was brought before the House was that there are still issues of concern about those who have indirect access to young people, rather than those who have direct access. The case for keeping Section 28 on the statute book remains as strong as ever. However, I wish absolutely to give my full support to moves to strengthen the 1996 Education Act along the lines of promoting marriage.7 p.m.
I had hoped that we might have been able to discuss the amendment before us without degenerating—and I mean to say "degenerating"—into the kind of contribution that we have just heard. I am sorry if that comment provokes the noble Baroness, but perhaps I may say as a matter of fact that the vast majority of paedophiles are heterosexual rather than homosexual. I deeply regret the inference made by the noble Baroness. I shall give way.
I was referring to cases of paedophilic behaviour which come before the courts. Furthermore, I should like to say to the noble Lord that I did not raise Section 28 as a subject for discussion. It was referred to by the Minister in her response to this amendment. Indeed, it was also referred to in passing by the right reverend Prelate.
I shall turn to what I want to say rather than what I have been provoked to say.
I welcome the words of the right reverend Prelate and pay tribute to the spirit in which he has moved the amendment. I welcome in particular his opening remarks when he said that, because legislation has changed since 1998, the inclusion of Section 28 in a local government Act—whatever one thinks of it; I believe that my views are clear to the Committee—is no longer relevant to this issue. The right reverend Prelate is therefore quite right to raise the matter in relation to an Education Bill and an Education Act. As he rightly pointed out, for some time this has been a matter for school governors and headteachers. Whatever one thinks about the materials that are produced, their use in schools is a matter for headteachers and school governors. It is certainly not a matter for local authorities. I welcome also the Government's response to the amendment. However, I have considerable doubts about whether this form of words will be appropriate in primary legislation. I shall quote the relevant section from the 1996 Act, to which this amendment seeks to add. It states:That is perfectly adequate and the right statement to make in primary legislation. It is included in an Act of Parliament passed only a few years ago by a Conservative government of which the noble Baroness was a member. These are difficult and sensitive matters. I accept— not least because of the continuing debate on the subject—that teachers need guidance on these issues. The Government propose to introduce such guidance and I am sure that that is the right way to approach the matter. I shall wait to see the draft guidance itself before I will be sure that they have got it right, but I do not doubt that that is what is needed here. I hope that the right reverend Prelate will feel that he has received on the record adequate assurances from the Minister as regards his amendment. I hope also that he will take comfort from the discussions he has already had and will continue to have with the Secretary of State. In that way, I hope we shall see guidance that will be helpful to teachers and which will deal with these important and sensitive matters in a calm and considered manner, reflecting what is already in the 1996 Education Act."to have due regard to moral considerations and the value of family life".
I am grateful to the Minister for her reply and her reassurances. I wish only to say that I believe that discussions on the implications of the repeal of Section 28 are going to continue. There is no doubt about that. It is on the parliamentary agenda and the issue will continue to be heard.
The noble Lord, Lord Tope, indicated that there is unfinished business so far as concerns schools. I believe that there is widespread misunderstanding about the implications of Section 28, which is, as the noble Lord rightly pointed out, directed towards local authorities, and the arrangements as regards schools in place under the 1996 Act. For that reason, I hope that we can build on that Act and find an appropriate framework which has, as far as possible, the consensus of the people of this country as to how sex and personal relationships education should be delivered. Given the assurances of the noble Baroness, for the moment I am happy to withdraw my amendment.Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I should like to intervene briefly on a matter of business management. I believe that seven groups of amendments remain to be discussed on the Bill. If the Committee feels that it is able to finish those discussions by around eight o'clock. we could cancel the dinner break and move straight through the remainder of our proceedings. However, I have no wish to curtail discussions on the Bill.
Clause 109 [ Induction periods for teachers]:
moved Amendment No. 236:
Page 49, line 37, at end insert—
("(8) Induction providers shall ensure that all new teachers and other appropriate staff members have received preparation for working with people with learning difficulties or disabilities or both.
(9) The Learning and Skills Council and the National Council for Education and Training in Wales shall establish a programme of disability equality training for serving teachers within the further education sector who have not received such initial training as indicated in subsection (8) above, and as part of an ongoing process of staff development.").
The noble Baroness said: Before I speak to the amendment, I do not know whether the Committee has assented to the request of the Chief Whip. I do not believe that it will be possible to finish all that early because we need to address so many diverse amendments. It is difficult to say when we shall finish. I hope that the Chief Whip has not placed a constraint upon us that we must finish.
Amendment No. 236 addresses the important subject of the induction of teachers and other relevant staff members who have responsibility for working with people who have learning difficulties or disabilities. The group I have in mind are those to whom, over the years, we have come to refer as the "Warnock children"; the original Warnock report made the statement that around 20 per cent of all children require teaching provision in the classroom above the norm. That 20 per cent of children encompasses those with minor learning difficulties over and above the average of normal capabilities right through to the most severe learning difficulties.
I believe that coping with such children will inevitably be the experience of almost every teacher in the land during the course of his or her working life. For that reason, I believe that we need to see on the face of the Bill a proper obligation to ensure that relevant training is included in induction programmes.
Such a provision would ensure that all teachers and support workers who come into contact with this group of young people would receive appropriate training in this area.
The proposed new subsection (9) states:
"The Learning and Skills Council and the National Council for Education and Training in Wales shall establish a programme of disability equality training for serving teachers within the further education sector who have not received such initial training as indicated in subsection (8)".
If my noble friend Lord Roberts were here today, I know he would agree with that sentiment. I should like to recommend strongly to the Committee this valuable extra provision. I beg to move.
I intervene briefly to say that I believe a little agreement has broken out between these Benches and the Conservative Benches. I thank noble Lords for their chuckles.
We have been seeking an amendment along these lines for some time now. Appropriately trained teachers will be able to provide properly for those with moderate difficulties in the classroom. However, as the noble Baroness has pointed out, the Government wish to see the vast majority of the population move on into further education. Such young people will need continuing proper support in those institutions. The amendment is sensible and addresses a valuable provision. We should be encouraging further help for those already moving through the system. I do not know how the Minister intends to reply, but. I am sure that teachers and support workers need the tools of appropriate training to do their jobs well.My name too is down to this amendment. I believe it is an extremely important amendment and I hope the Minister will be able to look on it favourably.
I also support this amendment. It is obvious that the quality of training of teachers will have an impact on the quality of learning and on the general development of learners. Certainly, Tomlinson bore this out. In 1996 a report produced by SKILL called Student Voices led people to believe that there was quite a long way to go to ensure that teachers in FE colleges were really good at dealing with students with disabilities.
I start by setting out what this clause is designed to do. Last September, the Government introduced a statutory induction programme for newly-qualified school teachers serving in maintained schools. Since that time, we have listened to the views of, in particular, sixth-form colleges and have agreed to enable certain FE sector institutions to participate in the induction programme. Those institutions will employ teachers who are qualified to teach children in maintained schools and will offer a suitable teaching environment. The regulation-making powers set out in this clause will enable us to do that.
We expect that most sixth-form colleges will take the opportunity to participate in the induction programme. Other FE sector institutions may be interested if they wish to recruit newly-qualified school teachers specifically to teach students under the age of 19 and would like to offer them an opportunity to undergo the professional induction. Amendment No. 236 is motivated by a quite understandable concern that teachers, both in maintained schools and in further education, should have appropriate preparation for working with students with disabilities or learning difficulties or both. Provision already exists to meet that laudable aim in respect of school teachers, and currently we are consulting on how best to achieve the same in respect of FE teachers. The standards for qualified teacher status require that initial teacher training trainees must be able to demonstrate the following: first, that they establish a safe environment which supports learning and in which pupils feel secure and confident; secondly, that they use teaching methods which set high expectations of all pupils and which keep them engaged through the use of approaches appropriate to the pupils being taught; and, thirdly, that they understand their professional responsibilities in relation to school policies and practices, including those concerned with pastoral and personal safety matters. Those standards are currently being reviewed by the Teacher Training Agency. As part of that review, the Teacher Training Agency will consider whether there is a case for making explicit reference in the standards to appreciating and accommodating the needs of disabled pupils. The induction standards for determining whether an induction period has been completed satisfactorily require newly-qualified teachers to be able to demonstrate that they plan effectively to meet the needs of pupils with special education needs and that, in collaboration with their SEN co-ordinator, they contribute to the preparation, implementation and upkeep of individual education plans. Therefore, the principle that school teachers should be able to recognise and seek to meet all pupils' needs is fundamental to the standards for qualified teacher status and induction. Everyone who successfully completes initial teacher training and the induction programme will have been prepared to work with children who have learning difficulties and/or disabilities, and the carers of such children. I turn to the same question in respect of FE teachers. The Department for Education and Employment recently launched a consultation paper on the introduction of compulsory teaching qualifications for FE teachers. That paper sought views on a wide range of issues, including possible requirements for FE teachers to be trained to teach people with learning difficulties or disabilities. Indeed, as the paper made clear, the Further Education National Training Organisation is,The consultation paper is being distributed widely among interested parties, including the Disability Consortium on Post-16 Education and Training, with which, of course, many noble Lords are well acquainted. The Government support the principle that all teaching staff in schools or in the FE sector should have an appropriate awareness of issues relating to disabilities or learning difficulties. However, I hope that I shall not disappoint noble Lords when I say that the Government intend to resist this particular amendment for two reasons, sympathetic though we are to the idea behind it. First, it would be quite wrong to pre-empt the outcome of the consultation exercise, which is already in hand, through which we shall determine how best to ensure that FE teachers have an appropriate awareness of the needs of students with disabilities or learning difficulties or both. Secondly, and perhaps not so significantly, we do not believe that this amendment is appropriate to the clause that we are debating. As I set out at the beginning of my comments, Clause 109 is in the Bill to enable us to allow FE institutions to take part in the statutory induction programme for newly-qualified school teachers—those who represent, of course, only a very small part of the FE workforce. I hope that, during the course of what I have said, I have given some assurances that will be received sympathetically by those who are interested in the amendments. Of course, we hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment, given the assurances that have been made on behalf of the Government."looking at developing standards for teaching students with learning difficulties or disabilities. Some teachers will want to specialise in this area, so there is a need for a detailed set of standards to accommodate their needs. Also, all further education teacher training courses should include the skills needed to teach such students. This indicates a need for 'core' and 'option' routes in these additional standards".
7.15 p.m.
Quite a lot of what the noble Lord has said has been reassuring, but it will be necessary for me to read in much more detail what he has said in order to understand its full import. However, I am puzzled as to why he believes that Clause 109 is not the appropriate place for the amendment. It opens with Section 19 of the Teaching and Higher Education Act. It is referred to as an induction period for teachers. If induction periods and the nature of induction are to be referred to at all, I cannot think of another clause in the Bill where that subject would fit. That is certainly not an argument to use against the amendment. If the noble Lord believes that there is a more appropriate place in the Bill, then we should like to give that some consideration. However, my understanding is that Clause 109 is about induction and makes quite specific reference to FE and HE. The noble Lord has said quite a lot on this matter. I shall read what he has said in order to reassure myself.
I want to raise one issue. I am not sure that there is a system in place which is sufficiently comprehensive to ensure that the relevant people receive induction periods during the course of their professional careers which will help them to deal more effectively with teaching young people with learning disabilities and physical disabilities. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 109 agreed to.
moved Amendment No. 236A:
After Clause 109, insert the following new clause—
Governors' Liability
(" . The governors of an institution incorporated under section 15 of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 or under section 112 of this Act shall not incur any personal liability in respect of anything done reasonably and in good faith in the exercise or purported exercise of their powers under section 18 of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 as amended by this Act.").
The noble Lord said: I rise to move Amendment No. 236A, which stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Sharp. I am pleased to see that the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, has also added her name. This amendment seeks to address an issue of great concern to college governors: that of their personal liability. Since colleges were incorporated in 1993, there has been great concern that in certain circumstances governors might face claims that they were personally liable for problems resulting from some action or default on the part of the governing body which led to a college entering serious contractual or other difficulties. As the law stands at present, governors of further education colleges have significantly less legal protection than school governors, company directors and charitable trustees in such situations.
This question has been raised by the representative bodies in the further education sector on a number of occasions, both under this Government and their predecessor. It has been the consistent view of the DfEE that provided individual governors act honestly and without ulterior motive, showing reasonable care and common sense within the scope of their functions and procedures, they will in practice be protected by existing law against any risk to their own assets as a result of the governing body's decision.
However, the department has acknowledged that there could be exceptional circumstances under which a question of personal liability might arise. More significantly, legal advice from outside the department casts considerable doubt on this interpretation of the law.
I move to another aspect. The Committee on Standards in Public Life was sufficiently concerned about the potential problems in this area that it drew attention to the issue in its second report and subsequently commissioned a legal study on the comparative position across a number of public bodies. That study—entitled Personal Liability in Public Service Organisations, published in summer 1998—confirmed the anomalous position in relation
to college governors in particular. The conclusions to that study made clear the need for legislation to ensure equal legal protection for all appointees to responsible bodies of public service organisations in the form of a statutory discretion to grant relief equivalent to Section 61 of the Trustee Act 1925 and Section 727 of the Companies Act 1985.
In conveying the recommendations of the committee to the Prime Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Neill, made it clear that the committee regarded the need for legislation as pressing—that was in the summer of 1998—in order to ensure that all appointees had a right to seek relief from the courts if potential liability arose. To date, the Government have not seen fit to act on those recommendations. I hope that the Minister will either accept this amendment in his reply tonight—in which case I shall be very pleased, as will many college governors—or, at the very least, tell the Committee how and when the Government will act to implement those particular recommendations of the Neill committee.
It is becoming increasingly evident that the question of personal liability being raised in the courts is rather less remote than the DfEE has imagined. This is an issue of considerable importance to college governors up and down the country. Those of us who meet college governors, as many of us do, will have heard it raised by them on many occasions. I beg to move.
The noble Lord, Lord Tope, has covered the ground extremely well. The normal defence in such situations has been that one was acting reasonably; the defence of reasonableness has been so long as governors, or those who sit on the boards of charities, act in good faith, but the world has changed. Personal liability, particularly in the area of governors, as has been well recorded by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, is giving cause for concern. There are very firm recommendations that legislation is needed in this area. It will not be enough for the Minister simply to say that, provided people act reasonably and in good faith, they will receive full protection. Therefore, it will be interesting to hear what the Minister has to say. In the mean time, I support this amendment.
We have much sympathy with this amendment. We do not resist it. We ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment so that we can consider what he and the noble Baroness have said. I do not think that he can expect very much more than that.
We agree with the previous government that if individual governors act in a way that the noble Lord described, honestly and without ulterior motive, showing reasonable care and common sense within the scope of their functions and procedures, as they invariably do, they will be protected against any risks to their own assets as a result of a decision of a governing body. We do not believe that the real risk is anything more than minimal. We do not know of a case where a further education governor has been affected. We believe that the one group of governors at slightly greater risk is that comprising those in designated institutions because they act as individuals rather than through a corporation. We are taking steps to reduce that risk in Clause 112 by allowing for the incorporation of such institutions. I point out, in passing, that college corporations may be, and have been, incorporated under both Sections 15 and 16 of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992. The powers are provided under both Sections 18 and 19 of that Act. This amendment is so drafted—which is why we cannot accept it—as to exclude many governors from the protection it seeks to give. However, we are aware that the issue of liability is, as has been said by representatives of all parties here, of concern to many governors in the FE sector. We should not wish such a perception to affect the valuable work of the governors or to serve as a disincentive to new governors entering the sector. We are certainly prepared to reconsider this issue, how best we can give some reassurance to FE governors, and to come forward with our own proposals at a later stage. With that assurance, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. I accept the assurance that the Government acknowledge that there is just a viable concern. We all hope that if college governors act reasonably and so on, they will not suffer for it; but the strong possibility exists. They are, in law, in a different position. They do not have the protection of, for instance, school governors. There is an issue here that was addressed by the Neill committee. It is not just my opinion or that of college governors.
I am pleased to hear—perhaps a little belatedly, but better late than never—that the Government will address the issue. I hope that they will be able to return with their amendment so that we know not only that they will address it, but how they will do so. I look forward to that, as will all college governors. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 110 [ Assessments relating to learning difficulties]:
moved Amendment No. 237:
Page 49, line 41, after ("1996,") insert—
("( ) a person is identified by the school as someone who will qualify as a student with a learning difficulty or disability (or both) within the meaning of section 13(2), (3) and (4);").
The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 237, I should like to speak also to Amendment No. 241. I say immediately that these are probing amendments. As they stand, they are alternative ways of achieving the same end. I think that one of them is defective, in any case.
Their aim is to ensure that in their last year of school, students with learning difficulties are assessed so as to identify their individual support needs and arrangements irrespective of whether those students have a statement of special educational need. The disability consortium welcomes the fact that under this Bill all young persons with statements must be assessed. It is concerned that those without statements simply may be assessed. Thorough assessment has often been identified as a major factor in the subsequent successful performance of students and trainees with learning difficulties and/or disabilities. The Tomlinson report recognised that.
My noble friend Lord Rix, who apologises for his non-attendance today, spoke at Second Reading on 17th January, at cols. 921 to 922, about a London study into the transition experiences of people with severe learning difficulties, which demonstrated not only the problem young people had in obtaining a proper assessment but also the quality of those assessments when they were carried out.
A young person may well have a learning difficulty but no statement; he may be one of the 18 per cent as opposed to one of the 2 per cent mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch. As the Committee knows, the number of statemented pupils varies enormously between LEAs. Many statements are resource-led but, on the other hand, an LEA may cope so well with pupils with learning difficulties that there is no need to issue a statement of special educational need.
The problem is that those young people without statements are not required under the code of practice to have a transition plan so it is those young people who experience most difficulty during transition. Some may have quite significant impairments and some may have less obvious ones such as a mild learning difficulty or dyslexia which is not sufficiently severe to have triggered a statement. They will often have attended a mainstream school but when they move on to an FE college or training programme, they find that, because their needs have never been properly assessed, they cannot cope with their learning programme. They become disenchanted and may drop out.
The FEFC additional support funding mechanism has often been praised for the way it can respond flexibly across the whole spectrum of disabled learners. I am sure that we should regret it if the Bill created a divided entitlement between those who have statements and those who do not.
As I said at the beginning, these are probing amendments and I understand that it would not be practical to accept them, thereby imposing a duty to assess all school-leavers with a learning difficulty as defined in Clause 13. In fact, it would not even be necessary in some cases. But we are looking for a clear recognition that many of those school-leavers without statements but with learning difficulties will benefit hugely from proper assessment and may well go under if their needs are not assessed. I look forward to hearing the Minister's response but I hope that she will say something about guidance and that she will recognise how crucial it is for many school-leavers without statements to have an assessment before they leave. I beg to move.
7.30 p.m.
I want to add my support to these amendments. I think it is a difficult stage for a lot of children—moving from one stage of education, school, to further education. An assessment may be of great help to them. They need some help at this stage if they have been missed out before and their disability has not been recognised. I hope that we can have some reassurance.
I merely want to reinforce what has been said. We are talking here about bringing more people into the structures which give them help. The statement system misses people and certain people are not designed for it. As the noble Baroness pointed out, it depends on who you are; who was doing the assessment; and which criteria were being used, which I am afraid vary locally. The current assessment system is much better than what went before it but it is not perfect. I suggest that we should be seeking something along the lines of this amendment, or at least the intention behind it.
These amendments touch on a very important matter. I say that as a parent of a son who was diagnosed with a rather particular kind of dyslexia when he had already reached the age of 17. That was some years ago. I hope that matters have improved greatly since those clays. But I believe that there is need for constant vigilance.
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, for bringing forward her probing amendments because they give me the opportunity to say a little about the purpose of Clause 110.
Clause 110 requires the Secretary of State to arrange an assessment of the education and training needs of pupils with SEN statements who move into other forms of education and training. Under government Amendment No. 243, the assessment will also set out the nature of provision needed to meet those needs. We set out in our Connexions document how we would expect the arrangement to operate. Those new arrangements will ensure that transition planning into post-16 provision for those with statements of special educational needs starts at 14 and involves all local partners, including the young people themselves, their parents or carers, the local LSC and potential or identified providers of suitable learning opportunities. The young people concerned will have the support of a personal adviser throughout the transition and assessment process. Further details will be the subject of continuing work with our partners, including those representing the interests of students with learning difficulties. Clause 110 corrects an anomaly. At present, if a statemented pupil stays at school beyond the age of 16, the statement and everything which it guarantees remain in place until his 19th birthday. If that pupil moves into another form of education or training, the statement lapses. Where the transition process is handled effectively, the statement will in practice survive in another form. But, sadly, in some circumstances that has not been the case, and the noble Baroness will be aware of that. For that reason, some young people have been deterred from choosing the type of post-16 education and training which is best for them. The purpose of Clause 110 is to ensure that when a young person with a statement leaves school, his education and training needs are properly set out in all cases. It will give pupils and their parents greater comfort in opting for education or training that is in their best interests, wherever it takes place. The discretionary power under Clause 110(3) is designed to give the Secretary of State a power to make similar kinds of assessment of the needs of young people where appropriate. That might be appropriate, for example, where a student with a statement of special educational needs remains at school after the compulsory school-leaving age but subsequently leaves to engage in other forms of post-16 learning before he reaches the age of 19. Similarly, where a student develops learning difficulties after leaving school, an assessment may help him to overcome or tackle such difficulties. I do not believe that we should impose a duty to make an assessment of all students with learning difficulties, as the noble Baroness conceded in her opening remarks. The range of learning difficulties of young people leaving school will be very wide indeed. In some cases, they may be relatively mild. Only a small proportion of students with special educational needs go on to have a statement of those needs under the Education Act 1996. We shall of course expect the Connexions service to spend more time dealing with the young people whose needs are the most complex, whatever their background, in order to secure a truly effective transition. I hope that that gives the noble Baroness the reassurance that the needs of pupils with learning difficulties will be fully addressed. Clause 110 is in the Bill to remove the anomaly I have described. That anomaly does not arise in the same way for pupils with special educational needs who do not have statements. In view of the reassurance that I have been able to give, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Addington, the noble Baroness, Lady David, and the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, for their extremely relevant contributions. I thank the Minister for what she said and for her full and careful reply. I am grateful for what she said about students with statements. I shall read carefully in Hansard what she said.
I am not absolutely sure that she met my point about students without statements. I am not sure that there is a sufficiently clear recognition of how badly some of the 18 per cent will need an assessment. I do not know whether she would like to make a clearer statement about that now and whether it will be possible to include in guidance how important it is for many of them to be assessed. I believe that Clause 110 uses the words "if appropriate". I shall read what she said and perhaps have further discussions with the noble Baroness and the department. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
moved Amendment No. 238:
Page 50, line 2, leave out from ("to") to end of line 4 and insert ("receive post-16 education or training (within the meaning of Part I of this Act) or higher education (within the meaning of the Education Reform Act 1988).").
The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 238, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 239, 240, 242 and 243. These amendments clarify the arrangements for assessments to be undertaken under Clause 110. Amendment No. 238 ensures that the Bill more accurately reflects the type of provision which young people leaving school, and for whom assessments may be appropriate, might enter. The effect of Amendment No. 238 will be that young people leaving school with a statement will be entitled to an assessment whatever course of post-16 education or training or higher education they wish to undertake. For post-16 education and training, this amendment aligns the entitlement to an assessment with the principal functions of the LSC for people under the age of 19 and the range of provision which it can secure for young people.
Amendments Nos. 239, 240, 242 and 243 define more clearly the nature and purpose of an assessment. Their effect is to make clear that an assessment must result in a written report which sets out not only the education and training needs of a young person but also what kind of provision is required to meet those needs.
These are important provisions. Noble Lords will remember that Clause 13(2) places the LSC under a duty to have regard to an assessment conducted under the clause we are discussing. The combined effect of these two clauses will be to ensure that at last we can make sure that the transition from school to post-16 education outside school goes well for people with special educational needs. I beg to move.
As I understand it, the amendments refer to the formal assessments that apply to somewhere between 2 per cent and 4 per cent of young people, or have done hitherto. My understanding of the previous amendments was that the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, referred to both formal and informal assessments of all young people. Therefore, their needs would be assessed, whether or not they fall short of the formal statement requirements. I understood that there would be an assurance, which I do not think is contained in Clause 110, that appropriate provision would be provided on the back of an assessment. I understood that that would apply whether the assessment was formal, as set out in Clause 110, or whether it falls short of that for the many young people who will still need assessing for appropriate provision.
The amendments relate to young people leaving school with a statement. Therefore, the noble Baroness is right in pursuing her question. However, I give the same assurance to her that I gave to the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth. It is our intention to ensure absolutely that all young people with learning disabilities are given the special help they need.
I thank the Minister for the amendments which give a greater degree of coherence to the provisions for those with special needs. I thank both noble Baronesses for the debate. The more often we see repeated in Hansard that we shall do more for the future, the easier it will be when the time comes.
I echo the thanks of the noble Lord, Lord Addington. However, I shall pursue the point I raised regarding the 18 per cent of young people to whom I referred.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
moved Amendments Nos. 239 and 240:
Page 50, line 5. after ("arrange") insert ("for"). Page 50, line 5, leave out ("person's educational and training needs") and insert ("person").
On Question, amendments agreed to.
[ Amendment No. 241 not moved.]
moved Amendments Nos. 242 and 243:
Page 50, line 9, leave out ("of the educational and training needs").
Page 50, line 13, at end insert—
("( ) For the purposes of this section an assessment of a person is an assessment resulting in a written report of(a) his educational and training needs, and (b) the provision required to meet them.").
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 110, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 111 agreed to.
Clause 112 [ Further education sector: designated institutions.]:
moved Amendment No. 244:
Page 51. line 8, at beginning insert ("Subject to the preservation of the essential nature of the institutions designated therein").
The noble Baroness said: Amendment No. 244 is a minor, probing amendment. Clause 112 relates to designated institutions in the further education sector, of which there are a number, such as the Working Men's College, of which the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, is a governor. I refer also to a number of the residential colleges, the WEA, and so forth, who are a little uncertain as to their future under the new arrangements of the learning and skills council. They seek an assurance that the essential character of the institutions will be preserved under the new arrangements. I hope that the Minister will be able to give such an assurance. I beg to move.
7.45 p.m.
Section 28 of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 designated, as eligible to receive support from the FEFC, voluntary aided sixth-form colleges, institutions (other than schools) assisted by the LEA, and grant aided institutions. It did not permit the incorporation of the governing bodies of these institutions. We have received representations from a number of those concerned with this special group of sixth-form colleges. In these provisions we address their main concerns and are pleased to respond to their requests.
The Secretary of State will be able to incorporate the governing bodies of existing designated sixth-form colleges or those that may be designated in the future. It will also allow the Secretary of State, when incorporating a governing body, to specify the corporation's powers and to confer exempt charitable status upon the corporation and the institution. The Committee may be concerned that in replacing Section 30 we threatened the protection afforded to voluntary aided schools on entering the sector. That is not the case. Indeed, we have taken care to ensure that all voluntary aided schools which enter the sector through the designation route will still be covered by the requirement on the trustees of voluntary aided sixth-form colleges to appoint a majority of governors with a view to ensuring that the established character of the institution at the time of its designation is preserved and that it is conducted in line with any trust deed relating to it. We have extended the protection to apply to institutions either specified or in a class specified by the Secretary of State that in future enter the sector through the designation route. In view of that.. I hope that the noble Baroness will understand that the amendment is unnecessary and will withdraw it.I thank the Minister for her full reply. I believe that gives us the assurance we have been seeking. I therefore beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 112 agreed to.
Clause 113 agreed to.
moved Amendment No. 245:
After Clause 113, insert the following new clause—
Transitional Provisions
(".—(1) Schedule ( Transitional provisions) contains transitional provisions relating to—
(2) Nothing in that Schedule prejudices the generality of section 114(4).").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 8 [ Amendments]:
moved Amendment No. 246:
Page 78, line 8, leave out ("of providing education or").
The noble Lord said: The introduction of an explicit power for college corporations to form, or take part in forming, companies, is a welcome clarification of the law. However, the principal powers of a corporation are to provide further and higher education and now secondary education at key stage four.
Education in this context has always been understood to include training. The definition of "further education" in the Education Act 1996 makes that explicit. It is unclear, in the context of this section, whether education in this context should be taken to mean further education as defined in that Act or some more limited meaning.
If, as I assume, it means the former, the section would have the effect of debarring college corporations from delivering not only education but also training. I am sure that that is not what the Government intend. I look forward to clarification from the Minister. I beg to move.
The provision has been made in the Bill in response to some doubts about the power of FE corporations to form companies. The provision in the Bill provides that corporations may form companies, but restricts this power to exclude explicitly the formation of such companies to provide education or to conduct an educational institution. These are clearly matters for which the corporations must take direct responsibility and be accountable for where they receive public funding.
On reflection, we accept that this provision could be interpreted as excluding the formation of companies to provide education or training which is not publicly funded. That was not our intention and we agree with the points made by the noble Lord. However, there is a technical issue. We believe that the amendment proposed by the noble Lord might allow corporations to create self-financing companies to provide education for students registered at the institution and for whom there is already public funding. Clearly, it would not be acceptable to allow publicly-funded education to be provided by college companies and by so doing for corporations to evade the accountability framework. Therefore, while we accept that the provision as drafted needs amendment, we do not consider that the amendment presently before the Committee is quite what is required. However, we understand the concern and I undertake to the noble Lord—this is the second time he has had such success this evening—that the Government will table an amendment in the other place to clarify the issue. Perhaps the least he can do for us is to withdraw the amendment, for the time being.I am very pleased to help the Minister in that way. I believe that I am on something of a roll. Perhaps we should carry on like this for the rest of the evening, but I expect that we shall not. I am grateful to the Minister for that reply and for the fact that the Government have reflected on the matter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
moved Amendment No. 247:
Page 78, leave out line 17 and insert—
("(1) Section 29 of that Act (government and conduct of designated institutions) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (2) for "subsection (3)" substitute "subsections (3) and (7A)".
(3) After subsection (7) insert—
"(7A) Provision made by the instrument in relation to the appointment of members of the governing body shall take into account the members who may be appointed by—(a) the Learning and Skills Council for England under section 11 of the Learning and Skills Act 2000, or (b) the National Council for Education and Training for Wales under section (Further education: governors) of that Act." (4) In").
The noble Baroness said: I beg to move.
This is a new and long group of amendments. It is also a very technical group. I would appreciate an explanation. I refer to Amendments Nos. 247 to 250.
This amendment was dealt with under Clause 11. It has been debated already.
This and the other amendments represent the insertion of a new schedule. There has been no discussion about Schedule 8. I do not remember one. I agreed the groupings this morning. This amendment is not listed as having been already debated. It was not grouped with the Clause 11 amendments. Quite a number of explanations are required on Amendment No. 249, particularly on the insertion of the new schedule.
We debated these consequential amendments during the quite considerable time we spent on Clause 11 last week. That clause has been agreed by the Committee. I do not want to go into that debate again at this time. These amendments to the 1992 Act are necessary because at present it makes provision only for governing bodies themselves to appoint members. But the point is that these matters have already been debated. I apologise if that has not been indicated in the Groupings List.
It has not been indicated. It has been indicated that these amendments are for discussion tonight. I have done my homework on them. I take leave to see what was said previously about each of the four amendments. It is not my recollection that they have been referred to. I do not remember the insertion of a new schedule.
Question, amendment agreed to.
moved Amendment No. 248:
Page 78, line 19, at end insert—
(" . In section 31 of that Act (designated institutions conducted by companies) after subsection (2) insert—
"(2A) Provision made by the articles of association of the company in relation to the appointment of members of the governing body shall take into account the members who may be appointed by—(a) the Learning and Skills Council for England under section 11 of the Learning and Skills Act 2000, or (b) the National Council for Education and Training for Wales under section (Further education: governors) of that Act."").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
moved Amendments Nos. 249 to 249C:
Page 80. line 15, leave out from beginning to ("insert") in line 16 and insert ("Schedule 4 to that Act (instruments and articles of government for further education corporations) is amended as follows.
(2) After paragraph I insert—
"1A. Provision made by an instrument under this Schedule in relation to the appointment of members shall take into account the members who may be appointed by—(a) the Learning and Skills Council for England under section 11 of the Learning and Skills Act 2000, or (b) the National Council for Education and Training for Wales under section (Further education: governors) of that Act."
(3) In paragraph 5, at the end").
Page 81, line 34. leave out paragraph 30 and insert—
("30. In section 16 of that Act (destination of reports) after subsection (4) insert—
"(5) Subsection (6) applies to a report of an inspection of a school falling within section 11(2) if—(a) the inspection was a section 10 inspection or was carried out by a member of the Inspectorate, and (b) the school provides full-time education suitable to the requirements of pupils over compulsory school age.
(6) The person making the report shall send a copy (together with a copy of the summary, if there is one) to—(a) the Learning and Skills Council for England, if the school is in England, or (b) the National Council for Education and Training for Wales, if the school is in Wales."").
Page 82, line 9, at end insert—
(". In section 15 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 (intervention by LEA) after subsection (6) insert—
"(7) For the purposes of this section a report of an inspection under section 62 or 79 of the Learning and Skills Act 2000 shall be treated as a report of an inspection under Part I of the School Inspections Act 1996."").
Page 82, line 10, leave out ("the School Standards and Framework Act 1998") and insert ("that Act").
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Schedule 8, as amended, agreed to.
moved Amendment No. 250:
After Schedule 8, insert the following schedule—
("Schedule Transitional Provisions
Part I
English Councils
Introduction
1.For the purposes of this Part of this Schedule—
Transitional provisions
2. The old Council must do its best to secure that any functions remaining to be discharged by it at any time after the commencement of this paragraph are discharged before the appointed day.
3. —( 1 ) Anything being done by or in relation to the old Council immediately before the appointed day may be continued on or after that day by or in relation to the new Council.
(2) In particular. any legal proceedings to which the old Council is a party immediately before the appointed day may be continued on or after that day by or in relation to the new Council.
4. Every agreement (whether written or not), and every instrument or other document, which relates to any property, right or liability to which section 83(1)(b) applies shall have effect, so far as may be required for continuing its effect on or after the appointed day, as if—
5.—(1) This paragraph applies if the new Council is established before it acquires its full functions.
(2) The Secretary of State may by order make provision—
(3) The Secretary of State may make an order under this paragraph at any time before the day on which the new Council acquires its full functions.
6. At any time before the day on which the new Council acquires its full functions, section 1(2) has effect as if for "12" there were substituted "2".
7.—(1) The new Council must discharge a duty which satisfies the following three conditions.
(2) The first condition is that the duty arises under—
(3) The second condition is that the duty arises in respect of a period ending before the appointed day.
(4) The third condition is that apart from this Act the duty—
8. If an order under section 8(4) of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 confers or imposes a function on the old Council, on or after the appointed day the order is to be treated as if—
Part Ii
Welsh Councils
Introduction
9. For the purposes of this Part of this Schedule—
Transitional provisions
10. The old Council must do its best to secure that any functions remaining to be discharged by it at any time after the commencement of this paragraph are discharged before the appointed day.
11.—(1) Anything being done by or in relation to the old Council immediately before the appointed day may be continued on or after that day by or in relation to the new Council.
(2) In particular, any legal proceedings to which the old Council is a party immediately before the appointed day may be continued on or after that day by or in relation to the new Council.
12. Every agreement (whether written or not), and every instrument or other document, which relates to any property, right or liability to which section 84(1)(b) applies shall have effect, so far as may be required for continuing its effect on or after the appointed day, as if—
13.—(1) This paragraph applies if the new Council is established before it acquires its full functions.
(2) The National Assembly may by order make provision—
(3) The National Assembly may make an order under this paragraph at any time before the day on which the new Council acquires its full functions.
14. At any time before the day on which the new Council acquires its full functions, section 30(2) has effect as if for "10" there were substituted "2".
15.—(1) The new Council must discharge a duty which satisfies the following three conditions.
(2) The first condition is that the duty arises under—
(3) The second condition is that the duty arises in respect of a period ending before the appointed day.
(4) The third condition is that apart from this Act the duty—
16. If an order under section 8(4) of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 confers or imposes a function on the old Council, on or after the appointed day the order is to be treated as if—
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 114 [ Orders and regulations]:
moved Amendment No. 251:
Page 52, line 41, leave out ("section 18(4) or 89(1)(c)") and insert ("any provision of this Act other than section 112(4) or 116(1)").
The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend, I move this amendment and speak also to Amendments Nos. 252 to 257. I speak also to those amendments in the names of other noble Lords.
The Bill provides for delegated powers only when necessary to ensure that administrative arrangements are sufficiently flexible to respond to changing circumstances. Most of the provisions for delegated legislation follow closely the model for existing legislation. Where there are new provisions on individual learning accounts and joint inspection, we have provided illustrative regulations for the House to consider.
The department proposed Amendments Nos. 251 and 255 in its memorandum to the Delegated Powers and Deregulation Committee in order to provide appropriate parliamentary scrutiny of delegated provisions. The committee agreed that this amendment was necessary. In its report it said that the department had demonstrated,
"sensitive appreciation and application of the criteria to govern the use of delegated legislation".
Amendment No. 252 is a consequential amendment to Amendment No. 68, which was withdrawn by the noble Baroness. I hope that she will do likewise with this amendment.
I am grateful for the close scrutiny that the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, has paid to all aspects of this Bill. I am pleased to confirm that the effects of the amendments in her name and that of her noble friend Lord Roberts, Amendments Nos. 253, 254 and 256, are included within the more comprehensive government amendments to Clause 114. With that assurance, I hope she will conclude that Amendments Nos. 253, 254 and 256 are unnecessary and that she will not move them.
Amendment No. 257 would make the use of delegated powers by the National Assembly for Wales subject to the annulment procedure of this Parliament. Delegated legislation relating to Wales is a matter for the National Assembly, not this House, and therefore the effect of Amendment No. 257 would run counter to the devolution policy of the Government of Wales Act. For that reason I hope that that particular amendment will not be moved. I beg to move.
If this amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 252 to 254 because of pre-emption.
I am grateful that my own amendment has been subsumed. I take it that regulations relating to joint inspections will be subject to the annulment procedure. My noble friend cannot be with us this evening. Amendments Nos. 253 and 254 are in his name. I understand from what the Minister has just said that they too are subsumed and therefore become otiose.
My noble friend has asked me to record that the noble Lord has struck a blow for Parliament with these amendments, providing that statutory instruments relating to orders and regulations made under,with two understandable exemptions, are subject to annulment and that they must include the provisions relating to Wales, such as they are. Amendments Nos. 253 and 254 in the name of my noble friend specify that an order made by the National Assembly under Section 43(4) or Section 89(2)(c) is subject to this parliamentary annulment procedure. My noble friend believes that the noble Lord had divined his purpose. My noble friend has therefore asked me not to move his amendments. I want to make it absolutely clear that, given that this is a reserve power to the National Assembly, nevertheless we have taken upon ourselves that it will be this Parliament that not only determines primary legislation, but which will also have powers to annul the regulations. That seems to me to be at odds with what devolution to Wales really means."any provisions of this Act",
Perhaps I may make it clear. I obviously was not clear enough before. As regards Amendment No. 253 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, that is subsumed. But Amendment. No. 257 would make the use of delegated powers by the National Assembly for Wales subject to the annulment procedure of this Parliament. That cannot happen under delegated legislation because that legislation relating to Wales is a matter for the National Assembly and not for this House. Therefore, if we were to accept that amendment—I am grateful that the noble Baroness is not seeking to move it—it would run counter to the Government of Wales Act. I hope that that is a sufficient answer for the noble Baroness.
I am not sure now. I shall have to confer with my noble friend Lord Roberts of Conwy. Like me, my noble friend understood that the annulment powers were being given to this Parliament. Therefore, he thought that Amendments Nos. 253 and 254 would, in that sense, be otiose. If they are not, then my noble friend might not have wished to withdraw them. Unless the Minister can offer some further clarification, we shall have to read what he said before making a decision.
We look forward to returning to this point on Report if the noble Baroness and her noble friend think it worth raising again. However, perhaps we may be able to discuss the matter before then so that we do not waste the time of the House.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
I should point out to the Committee that, if the following amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 256 because of pre-emption.
moved Amendment No. 255:
Page 52, line 43. leave out ("section 93 or 94") and insert ("any provision of this Act").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[ Amendment No. 257 not moved.]
Clause 114, as amended, agreed to
Clause 115 agreed to.
Schedule 9 agreed to.
Clause 116 [ Commencement]:
moved Amendment 258:
Page 53, line 12, leave out subsections (3) to (6).
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 116, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 117 and 118 agreed to.
In the Title
[ Amendment No. 259 not moved.]
House resumed. Bill reported with amendments.
Business
My Lords, perhaps I may begin by saying that I am extremely grateful that Members of the Committee accepted my earlier suggestion that the Committee stage should finish by 8 p.m. I see from the Clock that we have slightly overrun that time, but never mind.
As consideration in Committee of the Learning and Skills Bill is now complete, this evening's Unstarred Question is no longer restricted to the one hour available for business in the dinner break; instead a limit of one-and-a-half hours now applies. This change does not affect the time allocated to the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, or to my noble friend Lady Farrington of Ribbleton, but it increases the time available to each of the other speakers from six to nine minutes. However, if noble Lords have prepared six-minute speeches and prefer to avoid the inconvenience of extending them at such short notice, I am sure that that would attract no criticism.Northern Ireland
8.3 p.m.
rose to ask Her Majesty's Government:
What plans they have to ensure the maintenance of law and order in Northern Ireland.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is an appropriate time to be having this debate. It was originally my intention to discuss and examine the maintenance of law and order after devolution and the full implementation of the Good Friday agreement. However, sadly, we are not in that position. Most of the problems still remain and some are more serious and difficult than they might otherwise have been.
I am sure that there are many noble Lords who, like me, took the view that the IRA would never disarm. Those who are familiar with Irish history—or those, like me, who have recently been catching up on it—will know that disarming would be next to impossible for the IRA hard core. However, it has been right for successive governments to attempt to find a way through republican intransigence and, furthermore, to test their resolve. My party totally supports the action taken by the Secretary of State to suspend the executive and all other associated institutions. It is now abundantly clear that disarming was never on the IRA agenda. But, in my opinion, the peace process is by no means dead.
The republican "hawks" have now shown their hand. But there is no reason why the nationalist and republican community should not embrace the democratic process. After all, Sinn Fein is a legitimate, democratic political party. Let it act as such, without the overt support of the gunmen. A very large percentage of the nationalist and republican electorate, both north and south, have voted for peace. In a recent Irish Times poll I believe the percentage was as high as 90 per cent.
Devolved democratic government, with power sharing, is what the populations both north and south want for Northern Ireland. However, the security situation today is still critical. IRA guns are silent, but for how long? We hope for a long time. There are still dissident groups at large who are not on ceasefire and have no allegiance to any particular group or party. They are, in fact, their own masters and uncontrollable. The terrorist threat is still as real as ever, if not greater. I wonder how effective our intelligence gathering has been over the past few months. Are we still on top of the military and intelligence game? I hope so, though I do not expect the noble Baroness to respond to that question.
In his Statement of 19th January, the Secretary of State said that he would bring forward legislation to implement the Patten report later in this Session. I suggest that full implementation of that report at this stage would be very difficult. I am not sure, but I think he is probably regretting that Statement. However, 80 per cent of Patten's recommendations, or perhaps rather more, are purely about good, modern policing and are not in any way contentious. Indeed, they have been accepted by the Chief Constable himself. But they are very expensive. Can the Minister say whether this programme of modernisation—for that is what it really is—has been costed? If so, will she confirm that the Treasury has agreed to fund it and tell us over what period?
Is the noble Baroness aware that there are still parts of the Province where normal policing cannot take place, where communities are terrorised by armed gangs, where extortion is still commonplace and where expulsion and punishment beatings are a regular occurrence? I should make the point here that this sort of criminal activity is not confined to any one person or group; indeed, it may not even be attributable to any of the paramilitaries currently on ceasefire. There is, of course, the odd incident of "house-keeping".
Is this the time to start cutting the strength and capability of the police force? The answer is clearly no. No risks must be taken with security at this time. That applies to the RUC as much as to the military. I suggest that now is the time to begin implementing the modernisation and training programme. Now is not the time to be making cuts and taking other actions such as changing the name of this fine force—an action with which we totally disagree and which might reduce the overall morale and efficiency of the RUC.
Is the noble Baroness also aware that there is a serious and increasing drug problem in the Province? For example, in the country town of Ballymena—just down the road from where I live—which has a population of 56,000, there is estimated to be 1,500 heroin addicts and at least 10 pushers within the town? I am sure that I do not need to explain to noble Lords the associated crime that that brings with it, to say nothing of the misery and the unhappiness.
Furthermore, I wonder whether the Minister is aware that the Treasury is losing £250 million a year from smuggling across the border to avoid fuel tax. Of course, it takes place in no man's land, in difficult areas for policing. It might tread on the toes of the paramilitaries. The drug racketeers are mainly linked to the Protestant communities and the paramilitaries and the smuggling is mostly in the border areas, as I said.
Another part of the Patten report deals with recruitment. Again in his Statement in another place the Secretary of State admitted that the shortfall in Catholic members in the RUC was not entirely due to the name and to the hat badge. I suggest that there is probably only one major reason for the difference—that is, intimidation. I believe that if the paramilitary parties and Sinn Fein were unequivocally to join the democratic process and recommend to their constituents to support and to join the national police force, the nationalist community would be proportionally represented in a matter of a few months.
However, today if a member of the nationalist community joins the police force, he immediately endangers not only himself but his whole family. He is probably forced to move his home and to leave his wife and family or whatever. He would certainly not be allowed by the gunmen to police his own patch, which surely is what community policing is about. So much for community policing in local areas.
I suggest that the paramilitaries on all sides have a vested interest in an emasculated police force. In the light of Patten and the present situation, will Her Majesty's Government give an undertaking that policing efforts will be stepped up to meet the current increase in drugs and drug-related crime, extortion, intimidation, smuggling and other forms of violent crime and that in no way at this time will the RUC be emasculated?
In conclusion, although the political situation is very finely balanced, all is not lost. The initiative is still with those who want peace—that is, with the supporters of the Belfast agreement. However, a wrong or clumsy move could be very dangerous. There must be no acceptance of equivalence between legally-held and illegally-held arms. Any changes to security should only be made commensurate with the level of the terrorist threat. We wish the Secretary of State and the Government good fortune during the next weeks.
8.12 p.m.
My Lords, I was very interested to hear the noble Lord's comments. I agree with the broad thrust of what he said, but I take issue with his suggestion that the IRA will never decommission. All of us who want the Belfast agreement to work—we see it as the only peaceful way forward for Northern Ireland—cannot conceive that all parts of that agreement will not be implemented. By saying that they never will be implemented, the noble Lord is rather encouraging those who do not want to decommission. I prefer to take the view that all parts of the agreement have to be implemented and that all paramilitary organisations have to decommission.
It is, of course, bitterly disappointing that devolution has failed so far. I hope that it is a very short failure and that devolved institutions will soon return. For the people of Northern Ireland, life is now incomparably better than it was some years ago. They are able to lead mainly normal lives, mainly peaceful lives—the kinds of lives that we have taken for granted in Britain for years and years. Part of that improvement has been as a result of the reduction in the level of the security forces consistent with the lower threat. There are, for example, now under 15,000 Army personnel on operational duties, except in the marching season when we have had to increase them; 26 Army bases and installations have been closed; 102 cross-border roads have now been reopened; the Castlereagh holding centre is to close, and so on. These changes have taken place because the Chief Constable and the other advisers to the Secretary of State on security matters have felt it appropriate that the level of the security forces could be reduced. It is a very sensitive time. We have to be careful about what we say because the situation is so delicate. We do not want to say anything which might in any way encourage people who do not want to move forward peacefully. The noble Lord spoke about cuts. Certainly I would be surprised if there were to be any cuts in the security forces other than those appropriate and consistent with the level of the threat at any point in time. There are, of course, still threats. The Continuity IRA is a threat and there are other small paramilitary groupings which have not adopted the peaceful course. I think that the main thrust of the debate this evening will be about policing. I have always understood that good policing depends on the consent, the support and the co-operation of the public. That has always been the view expressed to me by the Metropolitan Police in London. The difficulty that the RUC faces is that it does not get that full consent throughout Northern Ireland. Yes the majority of people there believe that policing is carried out in their interests—but that view is held by a larger percentage of Protestants than of Catholics. There are some disturbingly low figures among certain parts of the Catholic population, mainly in the poorer parts of the inner cities where support for the police is disappointingly low. This is all quoted in detail in the Patten report. When the RUC has to operate in a situation where it does not get that support, its task is made much more difficult. I do not believe that it will be easy to get the support of Sinn Fein politicians, but I believe that the broad majority of nationalist politicians will come round to being more positive in their support of policing in Northern Ireland. Clearly we want to achieve a position where nationalist politicians are happy to encourage young members of their communities to make their careers in the RUC. That has not been the case up until now; it is highly desirable that it should be. It is also desirable that all communities in all parts of Northern Ireland should see the police as their police force and feel that members of their community are properly represented in its ranks. If we can achieve that and the support of all the main political parties, that would indeed make the task of policing easier, more efficient and certainly more satisfactory for the members of the police force. I believe that the Patten report will help to achieve those aims. That is not for one second to detract from the courage of the RUC over many years and the enormous sacrifices that it has made over many years. It is consistent with our regard for the RUC and our appreciation of what it has done to say, "Yes, changes have to happen". Incidentally, I think the RUC has had the most excellent leadership under the present Chief Constable, Sir Ronnie Flanagan. He is probably the best Chief Constable Northern Ireland has ever had. He is certainly an excellent police officer. I understand the police reservations about the Patten report. When I was a Minister I visited a number of RUC stations to discuss with police officers what they thought of it. I am bound to say that they were very critical and they were unhappy about some of the recommendations. They were broadly content with most of them, but there were some—we know what they are; the name, the badge and so on—about which they certainly were not happy. However, I still got the impression that quite a few RUC officers would reluctantly acquiesce in the changes if they were convinced that the aims spelled out by Patten could be achieved—in particular, getting more Catholics to join the police. If they were convinced that those aims could be achieved, they would acquiesce in the changes. They are police officers who obey orders and who do what is expected of them by the political leadership. I have the strong impression that today the RUC is even handed in its approach to both communities. That may not have been true many years ago and I suspect that some of the criticisms currently made of the police in Northern Ireland reflect the reality of long ago rather than that of policing today. Some surveys indicate that people feel that the police in their immediate neighbourhood are policing far more in their interests than the police in Northern Ireland overall. In other words, the local police whom they know are treated with greater respect than those whom they do not know in some distant part of Northern Ireland. That suggests to me that the RUC is beginning to get it right. Of course, every police force includes some bad apples; we know that from London. But the whole of the RUC should not be condemned because there are perhaps a few bad apples today and because of what happened many years ago, when the RUC itself has gone to a good deal of trouble to make changes. To be an effective force, it is important that the RUC accepts the need for change. I believe that it does so and that it agrees that many of the Patten recommendations are uncontroversial. Indeed, some of them were being implemented by the Chief Constable even before the Patten report came out. I am confident that the overall thrust of the Patten report will be to create a force in which individual police officers can give of their professional best in the interests of achieving better policing for all the people of Northern Ireland. That is surely the best way forward.8.21 p.m.
My Lords, one of the few agreeable prospects arising out of the sad events of the past week or so is that your Lordships may be able to hope for the return one day to his rightful place at the Dispatch Box of the noble Lord who has just sat down. It is a pleasure to follow him, particularly in the remarks he made which, if my memory serves me right, follow quite closely the findings of chapter four of the Patten report on local reactions to the RUC. The conclusions he came to seem to mirror a good deal those I reached, but not entirely the conclusions reached by my right honourable friend as the originator of the report. It seems to me, as I believe it seemed to the noble Lord, that if the local nationalist and Catholic populations fiercely defend the even-handedness, from their own experience, of their own local RUC forces, but nevertheless come to the conclusion that the remainder of the RUC is biased, they have bought the party line about the whole force but rejected it in so far as it applies to them.
Like the noble Lord, I take comfort from that idea, but it emphasises also the importance of the point made by my noble friend Lord Glentoran about the important part played by intimidation in preventing the recruitment of Catholics to the force. I believe that your Lordships should be extremely grateful to my noble friend for raising the Question this evening. We all know that the policing of Northern Ireland has always made different demands on the police force there from those made, for instance, on the Metropolitan Police and certainly those made on the police in my own home county of Dorset. All of us had, of course, hoped that it might be possible from now on for policing to be carried out in a much more conventional fashion. In spite of those hopes, all of us who know a little about the Province—I know far less than most noble Lords who are to speak in the debate—know that 30 years of terrorism have forged a close interdependence between terrorists and organised crime. I believe that I am right in saying that in many cases terrorists have become organised criminals in order to finance their own operations and, indeed, to exercise control over their own supporters in their strongholds. Even if the Government succeed in their efforts, which we all hope they will, the police in Northern Ireland will still have to deal with that problem. For a little while at least, that will require a police force equipped to do so. As both speakers so far have observed, sadly, but almost horribly predictably, this week peace seems a more delicate flower than ever. Most of the terrorist groups on both sides of the sectarian divide have not broken their ceasefire. However, it is clear that that position may not last. It is equally clear that the Provisional IRA in particular is still knee-capping and beating in its strongholds and that it has used the past two years to recruit, retrain, target, and indeed, as certain recent captures have proven, to rearm. In the face of that, we continue to release its most experienced terrorists from gaol. As my noble friend suggested, this is hardly the time to deprive the RUC of its full anti-terrorist capability. As the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, said, all of us, including, I believe, the RUC itself, welcome the overwhelming majority of the Patten report. However, it seems to me—and, I believe, many others—that parts of the report would, if implemented, seriously undermine the anti-terrorist effectiveness of the RUC at a time when we may still need it and need it in spades. That includes those recommendations which seem to be most hostile to its esprit de corps. Of course, we should prefer the RUC not to be a paramilitary force and, indeed, essentially it is not one. Nevertheless, although I have never been a soldier, I gather strongly from friends and relations who have that, if one is under fire, symbols become more, rather than less, important. I suggest that that would apply to the RUC as much as to any other body which professionally is likely to find itself either blown up or shot. When I said that "we may still need it", I used the word "we" advisedly. In that "we" I include not only the population of the Province—obviously—but also the population of Great Britain, which has relied increasingly on the RUC over the past 30 years as perhaps its first line of defence against terrorists. There is one other consideration which perhaps we should not forget—and nor should others. It is perfectly possible, if—God forbid—we return to conflict that the people of the Republic may find themselves in the firing line as well. Under those circumstances, it seems at least possible to those of us—including all Members of the House who take an interest in these matters—who recognise that there are terrorists on both sides of the divide, that so-called loyalists could be tempted once again, as they have been previously, to retaliate by going south of the border. The RUC has a function in that respect as a first line of defence not only for all of us but also for our friends south of the Irish border. For all those reasons, I hope the Government will postpone implementing those parts of the Patten report which seem likely to undermine anti-terrorist capability until we can at least be certain that terrorist groups on both sides of the divide have, like the rest of the political parties in these islands, given up the Armalite for the ballot box.8.28 p.m.
My Lords, I begin from the premise that law and order in Northern Ireland—and, to some extent, in the Republic—depend on agreement and harmony between the British and Irish Governments and between their police, security and legal agencies on the ground. That holds good whether one is considering terrorism, drugs, cattle, fuel—which has been mentioned—money or the many other sources of temptation.
I move from that statement of the perhaps blindingly obvious to two particular small projects of much importance to Northern Ireland. Here I declare my non-financial interest as President of NIACRO. The first project is known as Base 2. This organisation is necessary because, as has already been indicated, punishment beatings, shootings and expulsions continue, from both loyalist and nationalist sources. Base 2 has techniques for evaluating threats to individuals, to discover whether they are real or imaginary. It has means to forestall violence. It provides effective assistance in conjunction with other agencies to actual victims, and it can sometimes reconcile families and provide continuing channels of communication. If Base 2 ceased to function tomorrow, it would be necessary to reinvent it, given the facts of the current situation. The second item is the theory and the practice of local community restorative justice. I am glad to say that several such projects are now functioning and I have visited two of them in Belfast, on either side of the peace line. The do not operate in competition with police work—that is most important—but are fully complementary to it. They provide real alternatives to paramilitary rough justice and can prevent crime; for example, in cases of disputes between neighbours. Their greatest importance is perhaps in dealing with all sorts of anti-social behaviour and minor crime. They do, for instance, bring perpetrators and victims together in a face to face way. They can achieve reparation or restoration of the harm or damage done in ways not always possible to the police, probation or social services. They can reduce very substantially the time taken between the commission of an offence and the resolution of its consequences. This may, and often does, give a huge boost to local community morale. I do urge Her Majesty's Government to study the actual workings of the two types of scheme I have mentioned. I believe they will learn a lot from them. They may save some money and will probably end up in the long run with a better criminal justice system. The information gained may well have implications for other situations outside Northern Ireland.8.32 p.m.
My Lords, it is no reflection on the importance which I attach to the initiatives mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, that I do not follow him down that line. I thank my noble friend Lord Glentoran for initiating this debate on the maintenance of law and order in Northern Ireland. The debate is timely because it comes in a week in which the Belfast Telegraph has drawn attention to some alarming developments. In the first place it speaks of,
It comes in a week in which the M.1 motorway westbound was closed for five hours by a deliberate hoax suggesting that barrel bombs had been left in a culvert and a week in which three bomb warnings were received in Omagh. That is before one looks at the continuing pattern of so-called punishment beatings, which in the past have included crucifixions as well as other hideous physical assaults and, as my noble friend Lord Cranborne mentioned, banishment orders and all the other paraphernalia of terrorism of this kind. I want to ask some questions of the Minister who is to reply. I have not been able to give her notice of them and I shall quite understand if, as she is not a Northern Ireland Minister, she is not able to answer them today. I shall of course be happy if she writes to me about them. May we know now, or later if need be, how many of these so-called punishment beatings have been inflicted in the latest period? Can we know whether or not there is substance in the fears expressed in the Belfast Telegraph that the North Armagh Brigade of the IRA, which has long held a hideous reputation for ruthlessness, has defected to the Continuity IRA? Is it not the case that in the past week the Chief Constable, Sir Ronnie Flanagan—I interpose here my warm endorsement of what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, about his qualities—has publicly stated that the threat from terrorist groups remains very real and that the terrorists have not reduced their capability, in his words, "by one iota"? Does the noble Baroness agree that it is dismayingly significant that the pattern which I have illustrated should occur even though military patrols and helicopter flights in south Armagh have been reduced by 50 per cent and, as I understand it, security force patrols throughout the whole of Northern Ireland have been reduced by 75 per cent, so that only a quarter of the intensity that obtained before the Good Friday agreement was made is now being operated? I should be grateful if there could be confirmation—not necessarily now—of those factual assertions. I used the words "even though" because we had all been given to understand that the commitment by republicans to peaceful methods was contingent on reductions in security force activities and presence. Yet here there has been this very significant reduction in an area of particular danger and sensitivity, and "not one iota" of a reduction in the terrorist threat and capability has been made in reciprocation. It seems very hard to avoid the conclusion that this is another example of the first jump not being reciprocated. It is absolutely essential—I should be greatly obliged if the noble Baroness would indicate that she concurs with this—that the Chief Constable, who is, after all, the Secretary of State's principal security adviser, should feel under no political pressure whatever to reduce the RUC's capability in protecting the public from terrorism. May we have an assurance on that tonight, because it really does not require research, and may we have with it a parallel assurance that, if the Chief Constable were to report that he now needs to have a wider operational deployment of his resources, no impediment from Ministers would be put in his way, however delicate the political or so-called peace process situation might at that time be? Do the Government still stand by the assurance—I am sure they do, but it needs to be reiterated—given by the noble Baroness in the House on 19th January of this year that:"a spate of hijackings and bomb hoaxes in Lurgan and Waringstown".
Is it not clear, in the opinion of the Government, that at present we do not have such a stable security environment? Lastly, I echo what my noble friend Lord Cranborne said at the beginning of his remarks. I assure the noble Baroness that what I am about to say is absolutely no reflection on her, merely a reflection on the needs of the lamentable position that now obtains in Northern Ireland. Is it not now clear that we need once again a Northern Ireland Minister to deal with Northern Ireland affairs in this House—valiantly though the noble Baroness attempts, in a very difficult position, to fill that role? It is to be hoped that that Minister will be the noble Lord, Lord Dubs."There will be no question of rushing forward with changes [in police strength] in the absence of a stable security environment"?—[Official Report, 19/1/2000; col. 1176.]
8.40 p.m.
My Lords, I hope I have prepared no more than a six-minute speech. I shall certainly try to deliver a speech no longer than that.
I suggest to your Lordships that the unsettled circumstances of Northern Ireland as a result of the suspension of the Executive make it absolutely imperative that the Government proceed with the utmost caution on how they move on law and order issues in Northern Ireland. Events in Northern Ireland over the past few days should indeed cause those responsible for law and order to proceed with caution. The Sinn Fein/IRA decision to disengage from further talks with General de Chastelain and their refusal to interface with the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning by withdrawing their representative and taking off the table their propositions put to the IICD since November show how dangerous it is to take progress for granted in Northern Ireland. The police service in particular faces great uncertainty as a result of the Patten report—a report which not only failed to acknowledge the singular sacrifice that that heroic force has made over 30 years but brutally recommended the disbandment of over 2,700 full-time reserve officers. There is much in the Patten report to commend it. As the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, has said, 80 per cent plus is not contentious. But, as ever, it is the process of transition, the management of change, which brings the greatest danger to society. We must not allow our desire for a solid peace to become desperation which clouds our judgment on how peace can best be preserved and protected. Over the past 30 years it has been the RUC which has prevented our degeneration into the civic chaos that the terrorists sought to bring down on our heads. Most fair-minded people in Ulster, from both traditions, recognise that fact. If we move too fast, we shall also introduce instability into our communities at the very time when people are looking to see that the stanchions of law and order are firmly anchored. Whether you are a supporter of the Belfast agreement, as I undoubtedly am, or against it, we all need to understand that only evil interests are served if the effectiveness and capability of the RUC or its successor in name—the Police Service of Northern Ireland—is undermined. The Secretary of State has promised that he will handle change "with sensitivity". But his recent announcement showed that little was being dropped from the original Patten recommendations. He may, therefore, want to show his sensitivity in relation to the RUC and the overwhelming majority of the people of Northern Ireland by reducing the haste with which the Government are moving. We have asked an awful lot of the men and women of the RUC. We owe them a predictable and secure future, just as we are trying to make one for ourselves. I therefore urge the Government to take note of my advice and that of my colleagues: let the pace of change in the RUC not run ahead of the quality and transparency of the peace.8.44 p.m.
My Lords, the IRA has refused to join in the current review and has withdrawn its representative and the so-called,
It said categorically in November, after appointing him, that it had never contemplated and would never discuss decommissioning. Its proposition appears to have been (since we still do not know what was said),"propositions put to the de Chastelain Commission since November".
That is IRA-speak for the withdrawal of all British forces from Northern Ireland, the dismantling of border posts, the disarming and emasculation, or better still abolition, of the RUC and the ending of emergency measures and Diplock courts. All that is to be done before a small band of unelected men, in Mr Bruton's phrase, who hold no mandate from the people, north or south, may graciously agree to hand over, on terms of absolute amnesty, perhaps a tiny portion of their large stores of Semtex to the independent commission for destruction. (The legislation, both north and south, requires destruction.) Senator Mitchell understood negotiation as it is practised in the west. For give, there must be take. Sinn Fein/IRA does not. It negotiates Leninist-style: there is no give. All it has done so far is hold the hope of decommissioning over the heads of successive governments, British, Irish and American, on condition that it first secures all its objectives. It acknowledges no commitment, and the sorry story of the return of the bodies of its victims, which reached the grand total of three bodies, is an example of its idea of bargaining. The Government have had the courage to call a halt to this endless blackmail. I hope that they will now stand firm. The very last thing that they must do is to say, "Perhaps if we move on reducing security, that might trigger a return to the commission or the conference table". All it will do is produce more demands and more of the formulae which everyone hopefully interprets as meaning decommissioning when they mean only the fixed intent of the IRA to produce a steady erosion of the power of the state to protect its citizens. The agreement called it normalisation. It is not possible to call the situation normal in a country where, since the agreement and up only to August last year—incidentally, I am glad that further figures have been asked for—the IRA had carried out 36 murders, 57 shootings and 55 beatings (matched by the loyalists, but at a lower level). Northern Ireland is a country where by August 1999, since the Belfast agreement, 440 men, women and children had been sent into exile by the paramilitaries—told overnight to leave their home, their job and their lives and never come back. As for the murders and mutilations of earlier years, I have seen for myself the tetraplegics and paraplegics of the Disabled Police Officers Association who, with their whole families, have been crippled emotionally ever since. Northern Ireland is a country where, according to the Rowe report of June 1998, intimidation of communities continues, paramilitary activity is at a high level and ordinary people feel threatened and are fearful of giving evidence or serving on a jury. The report said that there was a continuing need for the emergency provisions and that the time for normalisation of security arrangements and practices was not yet. The distinguished judge said that he had been urged by some to,"a comprehensive process to put arms beyond use in the context of the removal of the causes of conflict".
by recommending repeal. He could not. Nor could he recommend either a reversion from the Diplock courts to trial by jury or the abolition of powers of arrest, search and seizure. The situation has not become better. Indeed, although greater powers were created after the Omagh bomb, it has not yet been possible to arrest and try those whom the Garda and the RUC know to be responsible because no witnesses can be persuaded to testify—a situation which the Irish Government also encountered in their efforts to bring the known IRA murderer of Garda Jerry McCabe to .justice. There are practical reforms of the RUC proposed in the Patten report, many of which, such as a new IT structure, had already been proposed by the police authority in earlier times. I hope that those will be pursued. I was partly reassured by the Secretary of State's statement that the Special Branch would be retained, but it will be a fatal mistake to shorten service there. Good sources take a long time to develop and they are not just parcels to be handed on to inexperienced handlers. Long-standing relationships are vital, especially in situations of danger where trust is all. I am deeply uneasy, too, at the proposal for a new police board to include 10 political appointments out of 19 members. Politicising the police is not only extremely dangerous but also folly. Nothing will work, because the judgments made will be partisan, not professional, and everything will leak. The Government have already withdrawn three battalions, closed 26 border posts and set out a programme of reform for the RUC which the Secretary of State has described as a process of change that will extend over several years. I hope that it does. It is the nature of both the Army and the RUC loyally to say in public that all is well. That is part of the difficult problem of morale and loyalty. But they have also said that the IRA has continued to train, recruit and re-arm. According to the Garda, those arms arrived by post at addresses of the Provisional IRA, not the Real IRA or Continuity IRA. We must rid ourselves of the splendid idea that these are splinter groups outside the control of the IRA: they are extremely useful surrogates which are brought into play whenever it seems useful to do so. Let us by all means get on with the practical reforms proposed in the Patten report, such as the new IT structure, but I hope that we shall go slow on what I call the "political proposals" such as the reform of Special Branch or changes in the police authority. Many such changes are proposed. I shall not go into the issue of the oath and the rest of it. However, I find it extremely difficult to comprehend why, when we are so ready to understand the IRA's feelings about symbols, surrender and all the rest of it, we are wholly unprepared to understand the feelings of ordinary people in Northern Ireland who treasure the name RUC and believe in the symbol. Incidentally, I believe that it is a fair symbol since it incorporates a shamrock as well as everything else. At the moment, I do not believe that it should be possible for the IRA to divide and rule by securing fresh support for action in the field of security, which is primarily a British interest, from the Irish Government. It has not yet become a serious problem for that Government. However, as my noble and learned friend Lord Mayhew said, that could happen. It is disturbing that Mr Ahern can quote paragraphs 7 and 8 of a commission report, according to the Irish Times, and yet we still do not know officially what was said. Surely, the withdrawal of the IRA changes that. It demonstrates clearly that probably the Secretary of State was right to say that nothing of any consequence had been offered, only the old formula about looking at the causes of conflict. The IRA probably said it at great length but it does not constitute any move towards decommissioning. It is of the highest importance to stand firm and make no further concessions other than to proceed as far as possible with a great many practical steps that are non-political. I hope that a great deal more will be done for victims than has been done so far. There will be threats from the IRA; it will attempt to use the so-called splinter groups to send its messages. The Government are right and must keep their nerve and not blink first. The IRA does not represent the people; the Government do. The Government, therefore, have an absolute duty to retain security forces commensurate with the threat. We know that every member of the SDLP in the former Assembly and the Unionists believe that there is a threat to be faced. I do not understand the actions of the IRA in this context. Hitherto it has been extremely clever to move from the political to the violent phase of the struggle and back again. It does not understand that the more it threatens the stronger becomes the case for good security. I hope that one day it will come to understand that it is only weakening the case for normalisation and the prospect of all the political change that it so wishes for, which could legitimately come about if it kept its side of the bargain and events took their course over a number of years. We should strongly support the Government's courage and principle in this matter. I hope that, in their turn, they will not weaken and yield to the Irish Government who, for their own perfectly respectable reasons, want to be loved by Sinn Fein. That is not, however, a good enough reason for us to put the population of Northern Ireland at risk."send a signal which would assist the peace process",
8.54 p.m.
My Lords, events can move fast in Northern Ireland, as the Unstarred Question tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, well illustrates. It was originally intended for a week ago and concerned government policy following devolution but was postponed because direct rule was about to be reimposed. It has now been amended to reflect that. Events can move fast in Northern Ireland, but the situation remains stubbornly the same.
It is timely to discuss the Government's future policy for the maintenance of law and order, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, for initiating this debate. The debate has appropriately reflected the anxieties of the Unionist community. The views of nationalists have not been so clearly articulated, although both the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, have emphasised the need for policing by consent which is a major theme of the Patten report. I fear that I shall strike a more pessimistic note than other noble Lords who have spoken so far tonight. The question in the minds of most people is: are events unfolding or unravelling? As I said when the House debated the Northern Ireland Bill last week, history shows that in Northern Ireland progressive initiatives, once they falter, have never recovered. I fear that unless devolution is restored within a matter of weeks, the Executive and Assembly will not be revived. As the days go by, the prospect of that unfortunate eventuality being realised increases almost at a compound rate. There are, however, those who harbour the desire for the status quo ante to be restored under direct rule. I do not believe that that is a tenable option. It is not just that the events of the past week unfortunately have occurred, but matters have been moving on long since. The nub of it is that it would be very undesirable if the Secretary of State wavered in his intention, stated recently, to implement most of the Patten report or altered his proposed timetable. If direct rule applies for an extended period and there are law and order disturbances—as almost certainly there will be— peppered with sporadic bombing outrages, a return to the former arrangements is neither a practical nor a political option, and may well be counter-productive. The Chief Constable, Sir Ronnie Flanagan, is fully capable of providing the required leadership to implement Patten, as I said in the debate which followed the Secretary of State's Statement on the Patten report. It is the best way to secure effective policing and to maintain security. If, as it turns out, there is to be an extensive period of direct rule, it will mean that once again the communal conflict in Northern Ireland is not, at this stage, soluble. In the words of Professor John Darby, an acknowledged expert on ethnic conflict and one of my former colleagues at the University of Ulster,To that end, it would help to serve the interests of peace in the long run if as many of the other proposals contained in the Good Friday agreement were pursued. I have already mentioned the need to implement most of the Patten report, but the cross-border bodies should be established together with the proposed human rights Bill, which has been signalled. That will help to nurture the climate necessary for policing by consent. Unless the political parties can come to an agreement so that devolution is restored very quickly, which is what the overwhelming majority of the people want, I predict that sooner rather than later direct rule will blend into either de facto or de jure condominium rule where Northern Ireland will be jointly administered, albeit reluctantly, by London and Dublin. If my pessimism turns out to be correct—I passionately hope that it does not—that is how the situation is likely to be best managed until a future generation feels able to accept the challenge of trying to achieve a lasting solution."conflicts that cannot be solved have to be managed".
9 P.m.
My Lords, sadly, the Question originally put by the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, was asked in happier times and, as he acknowledged, is now out of date.
On Friday last the Secretary of State announced that he was suspending devolution in Northern Ireland in order to save the institutions from an uncontrolled, possibly fatal, collapse. All of us must join the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, in hoping that this suspension will be short-lived. Until devolution is restored, all of the functions of the devolved administration will return to the Secretary of State. In the mean time—and indeed, even with devolution—responsibility for law and order rests almost entirely in the hands of the Secretary of State. With regard to policing, he must exercise his powers to promote the efficiency and effectiveness of the police service in consultation with the Chief Constable and the Police Authority for Northern Ireland. He sets the legislative framework for policing and, under the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 1998, he must set policing objectives, appoint the Police Authority, and approve the appointment of the Chief Constable. His objectives for policing in 1999–2000 cover countering the terrorist threat, maintaining public order, reducing the number of people killed and injured in road traffic accidents, and tackling the problem to which many noble Lords referred of drug abuse and drugs. These objectives are currently under review, not least to take account of the Patten report. On 19th January the Secretary of State announced in another place his decisions as regards implementation of the Patten report. Once in effect these reforms will change fundamentally the way Northern Ireland is policed. As the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, and other noble Lords acknowledged, and as the Chief Constable, described it, the vast bulk of the recommendations are simply about good and effective policing. Much of the report is designed to improve effectiveness and builds on changes the RUC itself had been pursuing. But some elements have caused great pain, in particular the decision to change the name and symbols. However, as my noble friend Lord Dubs said, if the RUC is convinced that the aims can be achieved, it will reluctantly accept the pain that is genuine and for which we must show respect. The courage of the RUC in the face of terrible losses was immense and we must salute it. The noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, indicated that some changes are straightforward and can be implemented at once. Others may require legislation. A Bill will be introduced before Easter. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, raised issues about security dependent factors and the Patten proposals. Where changes are security dependent, the Secretary of State will be guided by the advice of the Chief Constable. I can assure the noble Baroness, Lady Park of Monmouth, that the anti-terrorism capacity will not suffer from changes to the Special Branch. We are not reducing security measures as a bargaining counter. We are doing so as a response to a reduction in threat. No one wants enormous numbers of soldiers and police officers on the streets when the threat is low. This is a judgment of the Chief Constable and the GOC, not the Secretary of State. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, raised the issue of the number of punishment beatings in the latest period for which information is. available. There has been a total of 384 paramilitary assaults since the signing of the agreement on 10th April 1998. As regards the North Armagh IRA defection to the Continuity IRA. the Government have no firm evidence to support this claim. However, the Chief Constable Sir Ronnie Flanagan—I should like to join noble Lords who have paid tribute to his dedication— has acknowledged that the threat is still very real. We agree that the threat from terrorism is still very real as demonstrated in recent days. The Government remain totally committed to maintaining vigilance against this threat. We understand the concern expressed about levels of patrolling, but I can assure noble Lords that the level of security activity throughout Northern Ireland is determined by the Chief Constable in direct response to the threat. I can give an assurance that no political pressure is exerted on the Chief Constable, nor will such pressure be exerted. Perhaps I may also give the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, an assurance that if the Chief Constable seeks to make changes in deployment, or wishes to take on operational measures in response to the terrorist threat, the Government will support him fully in this. There is no question that security force strengths will be reduced except in response to a reduction in terrorist threat; and then only on the advice of the Chief Constable. The noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, raised the issue of undermining the anti-terrorist capability. Changes will reflect reduction in threat and will be made in accordance with the advice of the Chief Constable. The noble Baroness, Lady Park of Monmouth, raised the issue of the likelihood of decommissioning ever happening. Decommissioning, like participation in devolved government, is a voluntary act. We cannot force anyone to hand in his weapons, or sit in government with anyone else. However, the Belfast agreement is clear: that as part of a political settlement all paramilitary arms must be decommissioned by May 2000. Prompt action is now needed to ensure that decommissioning can be completed on schedule in the context of the full implementation of the agreement. That, and only that, will restore cross-community confidence in the agreement. We are all agreed that the Good Friday agreement has to be implemented in full. The obligations on all sides have not changed. What we must all seek is a way forward to enable decommissioning to occur as soon as possible. The objectives of the Good Friday agreement included the setting up of the review of the criminal justice system. The noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, referred to the wider environment in which we hope to achieve success. The review group has carried out a broad consultation exercise, taking evidence from statutory, voluntary and other bodies in order to ensure that any proposals have the support of community groups, the political parties, human rights groups and all members of the public. The report of that review is due to be published shortly. The current security situation—as noble Lords, in particular the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, have said—is one in which we must all insist that the paramount concern is the safety of the community and the protection of the public against threats of violence. We all want to see a return to normal security arrangements in Northern Ireland as soon as possible. The Secretary of State announced on 3rd December a review of specific security arrangements, including various installations throughout Northern Ireland. This process will continue as the security situation allows. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, raised the issue of the fight against drugs. Under devolution, responsibility for co-ordinating drugs misuse policy fell to the Assembly. During the suspension, the interdepartmental group is chaired by the Minister with responsibility for security. A five-year strategy, linked to a similar strategy in England and Wales, was launched in August 1999. We shall continue to combat drug misuse and the threat of drug smuggling. The five year strategy covers the same four key areas as the UK strategy, and a total of £5.5 million in additional resources was made available. The Northern Ireland Office continues to have a significant contribution to make to the co-ordination of drug misuse policy, especially in relation to policing and criminal justice issues. The RUC has a clear role to play in helping to achieve the objectives of the current drugs strategy, and that strategy will be pursued with vigour. Only last week the RUC seized the largest-ever amount of Ecstasy found in Northern Ireland. We deprecate smuggling, not only because of the loss of tax revenue, but also because of the power and influence it gives to the paramilitaries. We will continue to support the RUC and other agencies in combating it. The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, raised an issue to do with the Base 2 project, of which the noble Lord has great knowledge and with which he has worked very closely. We applaud the work undertaken by such groups, and are committed to restorative justice, believing that it offers an imaginative and reflective approach to dealing with some types of criminal and anti-social behaviour. In the context of devolution there has been very little change in the role and responsibility of the Secretary of State with regard to law and order. However, law and order is very much a part of the enormous programme of positive reform that flows from the Good Friday agreement and has built the principles of fairness and equality into the framework for every area of public life in Northern Ireland. In thanking the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, for introducing this short debate, I join other noble Lords who paid tribute to the knowledge, experience and contribution of my noble friend Lord Dubs in Northern Ireland. The only assurance that I can give personally tonight is that I share my Government's total dedication to returning to Northern Ireland and its people, who we know want peace, a peaceful resolution to this problem.House adjourned at thirteen minutes past nine o'clock.