asked Her Majesty’s Government:

What is their estimate of the number of plastic bags supplied by the retail industry; and what steps they are taking to discourage their use.

My Lords, the total number of one-way plastic carrier bags used in the UK is estimated to be between 8 and 10 billion a year. They weigh about 80,000 tonnes. The department is working closely with the Waste and Resources Action Programme and a range of high street retailers to promote reusable bags and to make a further contribution to saving resources and, of course, reducing waste.

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer, which moves on a little from the response given by his predecessor a year ago. Does my noble friend agree that we are talking about bags that add significantly to litter, have a damaging effect on marine life and contribute to climate change? If the Government will not put a tax on these bags, as has worked so successfully in Ireland, will my noble friend step up pressure on the retail trade and start educating the public so that we use reusable bags whenever we go shopping?

My Lords, the Irish example is not all that it appears because there has been an increase in the sale of black bin liners and other such bags to get round the problem of not having bags from the supermarkets. Nevertheless, the culture has changed. Taxation is a matter for the Treasury, because it knows all about these things. I can only say to my noble friend that when I was a young boy and my mother sent me out to run errands and go shopping each week, I took shopping bags with me. I did that every week, every month and every year, and used the same bags.

My Lords, is any attention being given to biodegradable plastic bags, which would deal with some of the problems that have been outlined?

My Lords, that is the problem. From researching heavily for this Question, I understand that biodegradable bags contribute to climate change through carbon dioxide emissions, and that is part of the problem. Biodegradable bags are not an easy answer. Sometimes they degrade in the wrong way and people do not know what to do with them. If the bag goes into landfill and biodegrades, CO₂ is emitted. The answer lies in reusable bags. If the supermarkets did not give these bags away—at the expense of other customers, I might add, because the people who take their own bags pay for everyone else to have free bags—or maybe were not allowed to put logos on them, they might change their tune about the waste being created in this country. As I said, there are 80,000 tonnes of plastic bags a year.

My Lords, the Minister is absolutely right to point out that these bags are used for advertising. They are also used as a security measure—I think that he would agree that when you try to decline them, the response is, “We need to put the shopping in a bag for security reasons”. Does he accept that the point of taxing plastic bags would be to encourage behaviour change so that people would take baskets or reusable bags instead?

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a seductive point, but this all seems to come down to the view that, as there is a problem, the Government should do something about it. There are alternatives to the Government bringing in a tax, which, as I say, is a matter for the Treasury. But if other forms of pressure were put on by parliamentarians, who can introduce Private Members’ Bills from time to time, they might be able to stop these practices and ensure that the supermarkets are allowed to give away only plain bags. That might change the behaviour of the supermarkets—and it is their behaviour that we need to change. They are giving away 200 million bags a week, which amounts to three bags for every man, woman and child in the country. That is an incredible waste.

My Lords, was not the noble Lord’s mother absolutely right in her reuse of these bags? I certainly reuse them to bin kitchen rubbish before putting it into the black liner. What is wrong with that?

My Lords, that is two plastic bags causing a problem for the environment. I plead guilty, but I was referring to old-fashioned shopping bags. What is wrong with an old-fashioned shopping bag that lasts a lifetime and does not cause pollution?

My Lords, this may be an issue on a slightly different scale, but what effort is made to recycle the plastic bags used by Parliament in sending out stuff to us? Could one persuade the supermarkets to accept such items along with their own plastic bags as a way of recycling?

My Lords, to give them their due, some supermarkets have containers for the disposal of these bags. These bags are packaging and are subject to the regulations regarding plastic packaging, and the supermarkets have to make a contribution towards that. Some local authority recycling sites have provision for such bags. On the other hand, there is plastic and plastic, and sometimes you are told that you cannot put certain plastics in disposing areas run by local authorities. More work is being done on this, but the fact is that the waste is being created unnecessarily in the first place. Worse still, most of these bags are imported. It is not as though we are creating jobs by making them in this country.

My Lords, my noble friend mentioned black plastic bin liners as being another hazard in this respect. What does he have to say about the fact that many local authorities now refuse to collect refuse unless it is in just such a black plastic bin liner?

My Lords, that is an issue. On the other hand, local authorities are now doing far more recycling than they ever did. There is no doubt about that. You can have green boxes and food-waste boxes as well as containers for general household waste, so this is in no way a criticism of local authorities. Tackling the problem of waste is a major issue on a small island such as ours, but we have to tackle it in such a way that we benefit the environment and do not damage it. Whether it is a problem of litter or of plastic bags ending up in the sea as a danger to wildlife, there is no easy solution. Creating less waste is the solution, if you are looking for a single one.

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that a considerable number of transparent plastic bags are used to send out papers from this House to Members and that, when there is a single sheet of paper to go, we get not only a flat plastic bag but a slice of cardboard to keep the paper straight, which must be a waste?

My Lords, I answer for the Government at this Dispatch Box. I am not answering for the authorities of the House.

My Lords, I am delighted with much of what my noble friend has said; he has stated the case perfectly. He is a very good Minister—but he is a Minister and it is up to the Government to do something. If he can convert what he said and his own personal behaviour to government policy, we would all be happy.

My Lords, that was my behaviour when I was a young boy doing what my mother told me. These days I am as guilty as everyone else.

asked Her Majesty’s Government:

What proposals are being considered for securing easier vehicular access to the Palace of Westminster via Black Rod’s Garden entrance and the underground car park.

My Lords, under phase 3 of the Palace protection project, the bus lane outside the House would be removed. The Corus barriers in front of the House would then be moved outwards, making entry and exit easier, particularly for vehicles with large turning circles. The feasibility of phase 3, including costs, is being studied.

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that comprehensive response, although he did not refer to the tunnel joining the underground car park to the House. What proposals are there in place for the introduction of electronic gates, the removal of buses from the car park exit, which block people as they leave the Palace, and the supply of winter and waterproof clothing for police and car park attendants?

My Lords, the possibility of a pedestrian tunnel linking the Abingdon Street underground car park to the House has been considered before. In connection with the Millbank House project, the matter may be considered by committees again. However, there are no plans to build such a tunnel. Any such project would have considerable financial implications.

As to the provision of electronic gates in the Corus barriers, there are design difficulties with making the Corus barrier gates automatic and considerable problems with the power supply to them. The intention under phase 3, with the extra room provided by the removal of the bus lane, would be to move to swinging gates as opposed to sliding gates, which would assist.

The bus lane outside the end of the Black Rod’s Garden exit, turning left, is a matter for Westminster City Council and Transport for London. We have asked them to consider moving the bus stop further along the road.

Visitor assistants are issued with waterproof and warm clothing in the winter. However, I have no responsibility for what the police do or do not wear.

My Lords, will the Government bear it in mind that in the interests of security, and the great need for it, it would be better not to have increased vehicular access to the Palace of Westminster?

My Lords, it is difficult to know how we would supply the Palace of Westminster with food and drink, and everything else we use—including plastic bags—unless there was vehicular access, and access for Peers as well.

My Lords, will the noble Lord the Lord Chairman note that some of us use that bus stop at the end of Black Rod’s Garden? We would not be favourable to it being moved further away from our workplace, thank you very much.

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, would not mind moving another 20 or 30 yards along the street.

My Lords, are there any long-term plans to close Abingdon Street and Parliament Square to vehicular access?

My Lords, in the longer term there is something called the World Squares for All proposal. It has just completed a feasibility study into the future vision for Parliament Square and its environs. Included in this is a series of options, one of which envisages the closure of Abingdon Street and the pedestrianisation of Old Palace Yard. The first phase of the proposal is under discussion; if agreed, this would see the closure of the road on the south side of the square, linking Westminster Abbey to Parliament Square itself.

My Lords, bearing in mind the increasing number of your Lordships who have offices over the road, across Abingdon Green, does not the noble Lord the Lord Chairman, agree that the most pressing immediate need is to improve pedestrian safety, particularly at the traffic lights across the main road? All of us who cross there several times a day take our lives in our hands, particularly when pedal cyclists, regrettably, refuse to take notice of the traffic lights.

My Lords, I remember answering questions about pedal cyclists at this Dispatch Box in a former role. I think we have had enough questions on this; the views of many Members of the House about pedal cyclists are well known. However, I take the noble Lord’s point; if and when we move to phase 3, the crossing controlled by traffic lights would be thoroughly re-examined.

My Lords, does the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees expect the closure of Old Palace Yard to precede the completion of House of Lords reform or to come after it?

I could not possibly say, my Lords.

My Lords, the next bus stop to the one we presently use is pretty close, by Lambeth Bridge. Surely the transport people will not allow us to have two bus stops close together.

My Lords, the problem with the bus stop is that if there is a bus stopped at it—which is, after all, what bus stops are for—vehicles attempting to exit the Lords’ car park into that lane have difficulty getting out. Obviously it would be best if the bus stop could be moved a little further along to ease that problem. I do not know what the regulation distance between bus stops in London is, and I am glad to say that it is not one of my responsibilities.

My Lords, should we not be encouraging noble Lords to walk a little further, to keep their figures nice and slim?

Most probably, my Lords, but the noble Countess need not worry on that account.

My Lords, the noble Lord the Lord Chairman referred to World Squares for All. Does he not agree that one of the proposals is that it should all be pedestrianised in front of the entrance to the House of Lords, which is at present our car park? If so, does he not agree that that would be a thoroughly bad thing?

No my Lords, I do not necessarily agree. There is no question of us not having vehicular access to the front of the House, but it would be restricted to through traffic. However, all this is a very long way away and not something that we need worry about at the moment.

My Lords, can I make it clear that we are not asking for the bus stop to be removed? We are asking for coaches and buses to be prevented from parking at the point where Members leave the parliamentary estate because they are blocking the traffic, not buses stopping at the bus stop.

My Lords, I take the noble Lord's point. I am not sure about the rules for coaches and other buses that stop on that part of the road, but it is a matter for Westminster City Council and Transport for London and we can raise the issue with them again.

asked Her Majesty’s Government:

Whether, in the event of an outbreak of pandemic influenza, they would designate ministers of religion as key workers.

My Lords, the Government recognise that ministers of religion will play an important role during an influenza pandemic. Provisional recommendations for prioritising groups for vaccination have been made in the UK influenza pandemic contingency plan, but no decision to designate entire employment sectors as having a higher priority has yet been made. The needs of ministers of religion will be taken into consideration alongside the claims of other groups.

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. However, does he not agree that social stability and cohesion are important in dealing responsibly with a pandemic and that the clergy would have a very important and useful part to play? Would not their explicit inclusion in the Department of Health’s antiviral prophylaxis and vaccination plan be prudent? Perhaps I may press the Minister further. Will he also consider issuing resource materials to local pandemic flu committees on engaging with faith communities, similar to what has been issued by the US centres for disease control?

My Lords, I agree with the right reverend Prelate that social cohesion is important in handling a pandemic, and I am sure that the clergy will assist in that area. As I said, no final decisions have been taken on designating employment groups as having priority for vaccination. We will consider carefully the points which he makes with the Faith Communities Consultative Council.

My Lords, nobody knows whether such a pandemic of avian influenza will take place or, if there is one, when. But would it not be sensible for the Government to have preparatory talks with non-governmental organisations such as St John Ambulance and the Red Cross and other similar bodies to prepare them for the possibility that they might deliver doses of antiviral drugs and vaccines to endangered communities?

My Lords, we have ongoing discussions with a wide range of people including the NGOs and public authorities, and we continually update the UK influenza pandemic contingency plan which is available on our website. On antivirals, we will deliver them, centrally, direct to PCTs and GPs.

My Lords, does the Minister accept that when it comes to antivirals, we need stocks of a sufficient size to cater for some prophylactic use, not just treating infected patients; and that stocks which are currently held or on order will not enable the NHS to do that to any great extent?

My Lords, we are currently purchasing a sufficient quantity of Tamiflu antiviral to treat 25 per cent of the population falling ill with pandemic influenza, which is what the current plans are based on. That equates to 14.6 million courses. The last of those courses will arrive in August and September. We keep the prophylaxis issue under review. We are studying a paper by Professor Neil Ferguson, who has expressed views on the issue.

My Lords, does my noble friend feel there is a danger of a member of the public reading this Question and mistakenly believing that ministers of religion are to be involved to administer the last rites?

My Lords, I think that this is a man with no access to a higher authority to be able to answer that question.

My Lords, if there is a pandemic, there will be people wanting and needing the last rites. Is the Minister aware that chaplains in hospital deal with the dying, and that ministers of religion visit dying people in their homes? If they are not key workers, who are on the list of key workers?

My Lords, the current proposal is that frontline healthcare workers would be a priority group but, as I said in my reply, no final decisions have been taken in this area on specific employment groups. I assure the noble Baroness and the right reverend Prelate that guidance on infection control is available to ministers of religion attending the dying or deceased.

My Lords, without claiming access to a higher authority, being merely a rabbi and not a bishop, perhaps I may ask the Minister to consider whether we need to get some of the clergy across the faiths to meet now with others who are to be designated as key workers. However, I appreciate that the decision has not finally been made. There may be deaths, but more than that there may be considerable emotional and spiritual distress in communities. The clergy will need to be there to help to deal with that. Will the Minister consider doing something about it now?

My Lords, I am informed that we are in the process of asking the Faith Communities Consultative Council to set up a working party to evaluate the business case—if I may put it that way—for classifying ministers of religion as key workers.

My Lords, could the Minister take as an example the rural network scheme, which worked very well during the foot and mouth disease outbreak, when Church of England priests in particular were enormously helpful to very distressed people in the rural communities?

My Lords, we keep under review all these examples of good practice and I will certainly draw my colleagues’ attention to that one.

My Lords, is it possible for the Minister to have a comprehensive list of all those designated as ministers of the various faiths so that they may be kept informed of what actions need to be taken?

My Lords, I am sure that that is possible. We will study the proposal.

My Lords, as there is as yet no sign of a pandemic in the Far East, what is the likelihood of a pandemic in Europe?

My Lords, I do not think that I am competent to speculate on that. We have put in place provisions to cope with a possible pandemic, and we continue to work closely with the WHO and to keep on top of monitoring outbreaks of various kinds of influenza around the world.

My Lords, following the Science and Technology Committee report recommendation that there should be discussion with those who distribute food, can the Minister confirm that there has been a discussion with major supermarket chains and that contingency plans have been made for use in the event of 25 per cent of heavy goods vehicles drivers not being in work?

My Lords, we are working across Government to engage essential services and encourage them to develop robust business continuity plans appropriate for a pandemic, and we are working with representatives of business through the Cabinet Office business forum to ensure that they have the information they need to plan for the impact of a pandemic on their business. Defra is in touch with the food distribution industry in this area.

asked Her Majesty’s Government:

When they expect to publish the National Learning and Reporting System’s report on women in National Health Service mental health units.

My Lords, we take seriously concerns raised by a National Patient Safety Agency analysis of individual reports on patient safety in mental health services. We have concerns about some information on sexual allegations and are working with the NPSA to establish the accuracy of the most serious allegations. Professor Louis Appleby is leading a review of these reports, which we shall act on. We had already intended to publish the NPSA report on completion of this review. However, as inaccurate accounts have been made public, we shall publish the latest version shortly.

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. In 1996, Mr Blair, in opposition, asked the following question about mixed-sex mental health wards:

“Is it beyond the wit of the Government and health administrators to deal with this problem?”.

Today, when 25 per cent of mental health patients record that they are held in mixed-sex wards and it has taken the Department of Health more than six months to respond to a report setting out allegations of more than 100 serious sexual offences against women, does he not think that it is time the Government responded to the report fully and quickly?

My Lords, there are two points there. As I understand it, the latest published figures show that 99 per cent of mental health trusts and PCTs that provide mental health services meet single-sex accommodation objectives. We are working closely with the remaining 1 per cent to ensure that they achieve the necessary standards as quickly as possible.

The delay in responding to the report has been caused by trying to get to the bottom of the allegations. That is what Professor Louis Appleby has been doing and will continue to do.

My Lords, I accept that the departmental returns suggest that 99 per cent of trusts now have single-sex wards, but does the Minister not accept that in reality at least 25 per cent have makeshift arrangements because they do not have the capital investment to allow them to arrange for separate wards? Those unfortunate arrangements allow daytime occupancy to be joint and rooms at night to be unlocked, often in separate wards but too close to each other to provide appropriate protection.

My Lords, we know that a very small number of patients, when admitted as an emergency, may be put in mixed-sex accommodation. It is the nature of an emergency that some action has to be taken. However, we have put a large amount of extra money into mental health services, including capital. I will look into any cases where applications have been made for capital money that has not then been granted in that area.

My Lords, the Minister said that a very high percentage of providers met an acceptable standard. What is an acceptable standard? Does that mean that women are still at risk in these units, as the report suggests? If that is the case, will he please look at it as a matter of extreme urgency?

My Lords, I will write to the noble Baroness with the definitions of standards. I think she is aware of them. I do not have time to go through the detail of them here, but I will share them with her.

As I said, there are occasions when people are admitted to a mixed-sex ward in an emergency. A small proportion of providers—1 per cent—are not meeting the standards, and we are working with them to make sure that they do so.

My Lords, does the noble Lord recall that in 1994 I sponsored and took through this House a Bill outlawing mixed-sex wards? Ever since that time—12 years ago—I have been assured by Minister after Minister, including the noble Lord himself, that such wards would indeed be phased out completely. Now I understand from the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and others, that they have not been phased out. Surely, after 12 years, we should have eliminated mixed-sex wards entirely from the National Health Service.

My Lords, I pay tribute to the work of the noble Lord in this area. I say to him that rather more progress has been made in this area under this Government than under the previous one.

My Lords, can the Minister confirm my understanding that no organisation is specifically tasked with monitoring assaults committed by patients on other patients? Is that not quite wrong? Will the Minister consider the case for drawing up clear national guidelines for how trusts should react when one patient assaults another as there does not seem to be any consistency in this area?

My Lords, it is the responsibility of the trust that is running the facilities to ensure the safety of its patients. Where there are possible criminal assaults, it is for the trust to inform the police. Work is going on about whether more guidance is needed in this area. I am happy to write to the noble Earl about that.

My Lords, will the Government institute a robust, transparent and easily accessible reporting system for incidents of sexual assault and harassment in mental health units in general, and for women in particular? If that is to be the case, when will it occur?

My Lords, this Government introduced the National Learning and Reporting System under the NPSA, for which they have been fully commended by the National Audit Office. This leaked document is part of that work. We are continuing to get to the bottom of that. This has demonstrated that there is a more open culture in the NHS, which is for the good of patients.

My Lords, I beg to move the three Motions standing in my name on the Order Paper.

Moved, That the draft orders laid before the House on 5, 6 and 12 June be approved [Considered in Grand Committee on 4 July].—(Lord Rooker.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

My Lords, somewhat exceptionally, I seek to repeat a Statement made by the right honourable Secretary of State for Trade and Industry in the other place yesterday. The Statement is as follows:

“Today I am publishing a report setting out the conclusions of the review. Copies will be available in the Vote Office in the usual way. The report is extensive and of necessity my Statement has to cover proposals in some detail.

“Mr Speaker, we face two major long-term challenges: first, along with other countries, to tackle climate change and the need to cut damaging carbon emissions; and, secondly, delivering secure supplies of cleaner energy at affordable prices. Increasingly, we will come to depend upon imported gas and oil as our own plentiful but harder to exploit North Sea reserves decline. The proposals I am announcing today set out our approach to meeting our energy needs over the next 30 to 40 years. Many of the proposals contained in this report will need further consultation. Thereafter, the Government intend to publish a White Paper around the turn of the year.

“The starting point for reducing carbon emissions must be to save energy. If we are to meet our goals of a 60 per cent reduction in carbon dioxide emission by 2050, we need not just to reduce carbon intensity through low energy sources such as renewables, but also to save energy. So we make a number of proposals to encourage greater energy efficiency. For consumers we need better information about the amount of energy used, smart metering and real-time energy use displays, better and clearer energy bills and more information for new buyers and tenants on energy efficiency in homes.

“It is estimated that leaving electric appliances on standby uses about 7 per cent of all electricity generated in the UK. So we will work with industry and others to improve the efficiency of domestic appliances and to phase out inefficient goods, limiting the amount of stand-by energy wasted.

“We also propose a range of measures to take us towards a long-term goal of carbon neutral developments—new homes can use around a quarter of the energy to heat compared with the average home. We aim to make the government estate carbon neutral by 2012. We will also provide strong support for the use of on-site electricity generation such as solar panels.

“Energy efficiency will help people on low incomes especially. The review sets out our approach. If we are to make a real difference to reducing energy demand we need a radically different approach. We need a stronger obligation on energy companies to provide energy saving measures and a radical plan to change the way they sell their services.

“We will encourage Britain’s 27 million homes to become more energy efficient, but it is also essential that we incentivise Britain’s big six energy suppliers to work with home owners to make their houses more energy efficient.

“Today, companies have the incentive to sell as much as they can. Instead, we need to give energy producers incentives to make households more energy efficient and to sell them more insulation products. We are consulting on the most effective way of doing that.

“The EU Emissions Trading Scheme, which covers 11,000 high intensity users of energy and the climate change levy are key to encouraging businesses such as power stations or steelworks to save energy and to cut emissions. But there are around 5,000 large businesses and public services in the UK not covered by that scheme. We want to reduce energy inefficiency for these companies too. One supermarket chain in the UK alone is one of the biggest single users of energy in the country. These businesses should be incentivised to reduce their emissions.

“So we shall consult on a proposal for an emissions trading scheme for them along with other options to cut the amount of carbon produced, which is something that they support. It makes economic and environmental sense.

“Saving energy in businesses and homes is essential. But so too is the need to cut emissions from road transport. Fuel efficiency in transport continues to improve, and we will encourage the use of lower carbon fuels, especially biofuels. There will be more cost-effective opportunities to save carbon as new technologies are developed. Company car tax and vehicle excise duty have been reformed to encourage energy efficiency, and we will continue to press the EU to consider the inclusion of road transport in the emissions trading scheme as well as including aviation.

“Last November, we announced in the renewable transport fuel obligation that 5 per cent of all fuels are to be from renewable sources by 2010. Today, we propose that the obligation, after consultation, should be extended after 2010, provided that some important conditions are met. This could provide a further carbon reduction of 2 million tonnes, which is equivalent to taking another 1 million cars off the road once it is fully implemented.

“Providing the right incentives to reduce energy is critical, but we also need to do more to make the energy we use cleaner. We make a number of proposals. Most of our electricity is generated in large power stations, and around three-quarters of our heat comes from gas that is fed through a national network. It delivers economies of scale, safety and, crucially, reliability. The Government believe that we can do more to encourage the generation of electricity on a smaller scale near to where it is used.

“Today, less than half of 1 per cent of our electricity comes from microgeneration. Combined heat and power provides about 7 per cent. We need to do more. There are technical and other obstacles to overcome, but we want to remove barriers to the development of what is known as distributed generation. We can do more to make it more attractive to energy microgeneration and to set up combined heat and power schemes. The Government believe that this is a major opportunity for the UK not just to invest in renewable energy but in other low- carbon technologies.

“The environmental transformation fund, which was announced recently, will provide investment for energy funding services. Details of the scale and scope of that fund will be announced in the spending review in 2008. We will also encourage low-carbon alternatives such as biomass, solar and heat pumps.

“Over the next two decades, it is likely that we will need substantial new electricity generation capacity as power stations, principally coal and nuclear plants, reach the end of their lives. It is equivalent to around a third of today’s generation capacity. Power stations are long-term investments, and we need to put in place the right framework to incentivise investment decisions to limit carbon emissions.

“First, we remain committed to carbon pricing in the UK through the operation of the emissions trading scheme. It is essential that there is a carbon price, to encourage us to use less of it. Today, around 90 per cent of the UK’s energy needs are met by fossil fuels, so we need to do more to encourage renewable generation of electricity.

“The renewables obligation is key to supporting the expansion of renewables. It has brought forward major developments, particularly onshore wind, landfill gas and the use of biomass in coal stations. Far from getting rid of the renewables obligation as some have proposed, we intend to increase it from 15 per cent to 20 per cent.

“We also want to give a boost to offshore wind and other emerging technologies to encourage the growth of other technologies—off-shore, wind or tidal, for example. So we will consult on banding the obligations to encourage these developments.

“The Government also see a continuing role for both gas and coal-fired generation. The Government will convene a coal forum to bring together UK coal producers and suppliers to help them find solutions for the long-term future of UK coal-fired power generation and UK coal production.

“Coal-fired generation continues to meet around one third of electricity demand. Last winter it reached as much as half. This shows the importance coal can play to the UK’s energy security. But to have a long-term future we need to tackle its heavy carbon emissions.

“Carbon capture and storage could cut emissions by 80 to 90 per cent. And we have some natural and commercial advantages—strong oil industry and old oil fields where CO₂ can be stored. The next step would be a commercial demonstration if it proved to be cost effective. We are working with Norway and the industry in developing this and a further announcement will be made in the Pre-Budget Report. Carbon capture could lead to saving several millions tonnes of carbon by 2020.

“The Government believe that a mix of energy supply remains essential. We should not be over-dependent on one source. That is especially so if we are to maintain security of supply in the future. We will continue to do everything we can to promote more open and competitive markets, which is why we are backing the Commission in securing an effective implementation of the energy market.

“We will also take steps to secure gas supplies, maximising the exploitation of oil and gas from the UK Continental Shelf. Last month we saw a record number of applications for further development in the North Sea. We also need to facilitate the construction of sufficient storage and import infrastructure.

“Against a background where Britain’s nuclear power stations are ageing, decisions will have to be taken on their replacement in the next few years. If we do nothing, the proportion of electricity generated by nuclear will fall from just under 20 per cent today to just 6 per cent in 15 years’ time. And nuclear has provided much of the electricity base load, contributing to consistency of supply as well as security of supply.

“While some of that capacity can and should be replaced by renewables, it is more likely than not that some of it will be replaced by gas, which would increasingly have to be imported. The Government have concluded that new nuclear power stations could make a significant contribution to meeting our energy policy goals. It will be for the private sector to initiate, fund, construct and operate new nuclear plants and cover the cost of decommissioning and their full share of long-term waste management costs.

“The review makes a number of proposals to address potential barriers to new build and the HSE is developing guidance for potential providers of new stations. For nuclear, new-build consideration of safety and security will be paramount, as it is now. We are setting out a proposed framework for the way in which the relevant issues on nuclear should be handled in the planning process and will be consulting on this before the publication of the White Paper.

“The Committee on Radioactive Waste Management published its interim recommendations in April, confirming its preference for geological disposal of nuclear waste. The committee is to be congratulated on the open and transparent way in which it has conducted its work and the broad consensus it has developed for securing the future long-term management of the UK’s nuclear waste. CoRWM will publish its final report this month. The Government will respond thereafter.

“If we are to see any of these developments, whether they be renewables or conventional power stations, we need to change the planning laws in this country. We will work with the devolved Administrations to make sure that we have an effective planning regime. There are some changes we can make now, for example, bringing together the planning process and consents on the Electricity Act but the Government believe that the current planning regime needs fundamental reform and the Government will consult on proposals to do that later this year.

“The proposals that I have set out will result in a reduction of between 19 and 25 million tonnes of carbon by 2020, over and above the measures announced in the Climate Change Programme review already. We are on course to achieve real progress in cutting emissions by 2020 and on the right path to attaining our goal of cutting the UK’s carbon emissions by 60 per cent by about 2050. These proposals will help us meet our twin objectives of tackling climate change and providing security of supply. The scale of the challenge is great. The proposals I set out show how we can overcome them to secure our prosperity and the health of our planet”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

Since this Statement was made in the other place, it has come to light that the statistics quoted on electricity appliances on standby should have referred to electricity used in the home, not electricity generated in the United Kingdom. Arrangements are being made to advise the other place of that clarification.

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made yesterday in the other place. I am pleased that Her Majesty's Government are, in theory, considering nuclear energy within the mix that we need to protect the security of supply to our small country, especially considering that we on these Benches had to fight the Government during the progress of the Energy Bill in 2004 to keep the nuclear option open. Indeed, one might argue that, welcome though some of the noises in the Statement are, the gist is more, “We’ve thought about it, now we are going to think about it again—a little more—and then consult on it”, or, as my honourable friend in the other place stated yesterday,

“not carbon-free but content-free”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/7/06; col. 1265.]

Two years ago the Government had the opportunity in primary legislation to address many of the points that they have raised today. Yet I am sure that noble Lords from all sides of the House will remember that the Government resisted amendments that addressed sustainable energy, microgeneration, combined heat and power, energy efficiency and clean-coal technology, to mention just a few—perhaps because it was an election year. As the energy crisis deepens, we know that the Energy Act 2004 was a missed opportunity and that, with the rapid rise in the price of oil and the depleting gas supplies, the matter is now becoming critical. There can be no doubt that the Government agree with us that security of supply and carbon reduction are the two key priorities.

I will not repeat the comments of my honourable friend, who succinctly laid down the many areas in which there is now a consensus, nor shall I ask the questions that he did, unless there was no answer in the other place. However, I want to ask the Minister what consideration has been given to the flexing of muscles by Russia in the energy field and how that may affect our security of supply at the end of the pipeline.

I started by suggesting that, in theory, the Government seem to be considering nuclear energy. In a well publicised speech, the Prime Minister announced that nuclear power is,

“back on the agenda with a vengeance”.

However, in his preface to the energy review report, the Prime Minister spares 10 scant words to the subject of nuclear power. In his Statement in the other place yesterday, repeated by the Minister today, the Secretary of State said that the Government have concluded that new nuclear power stations could make a significant contribution to meeting our energy policy needs. I emphasise the word “could”—not “will” or even “should”. Is this a diminution of what the Prime Minister said about nuclear power being,

“back on the agenda with a vengeance”?

It is perfectly clear that, perhaps in deference to their vast body of anti-nuclear supporters, the Government, while offering to grasp the nuclear nettle, have done so with heavily gloved hands.

In the very next paragraph of that Statement, the Government said—I précis it—that it will be for the private sector to fund its full share of the long-term waste management costs. The Secretary of State was pressed by several of his Back Benchers in the other place to explain what the full share was. One honourable Member asked him whether it was 100 per cent. To all those questions, no answers were forthcoming, so, on behalf of the House and in the interests of clarity, I repeat the question: is the full share 100 per cent? A simple yes or no will suffice. I assume that nuclear waste from sources other than nuclear power—for example, medical and industrial waste, and isotopes—will not be charged to the generators.

I am conscious of time in a discussion in which many may want to take part, so I shall add only one more comment. In the Statement, the Minister repeated that we need a stronger obligation on energy companies to provide energy-saving measures. The Secretary of State pointed out that energy companies have a great incentive to sell as much energy as they can. The suggestion is that energy companies should be incentivised to sell more insulating products. It sounds to me like trying to get turkeys to vote for Christmas.

The Prime Minister has referred to energy-saving bulbs. They are first class: they save power and last much longer than ordinary bulbs. But they cost several pounds each, and we obviously need to look for things that are not necessarily beyond the pocket of many people. What energy efficiency regulations will be imposed both on new builds and on conversions of existing properties?

Overall, the Statement poses more questions than it gives answers, because it lacks detail and calls for further consultation. How much more do we need? We welcome the Government’s focus on renewables, particularly for planning procedures. However, what else will they do to achieve those targets? I remind the Minister that the Government have had targets of 10 per cent by 2010, 20 per cent by 2020 and 60 per cent by 2050. Today, 3 to 4 per cent of our energy comes from wind power, so the question is: how will they achieve that? After nine years, six Secretaries of State and three energy reviews, our supply is not secure and carbon emissions continue to rise.

I started by saying that the Energy Act 2004 was a missed opportunity. This Statement has been, as well. It is, as my honourable friend said in the other place,

“a grave and perilous let-down”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/7/06, col. 1266.]

I return to the cry so often heard. It is time, in the immortal words of Elvis, for:

“A little less conversation, a little more action, please”.

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for repeating the Statement, although it is rather unusual that we had to have it today. It seems that, through the usual channels, the Conservatives did not ask for this Statement. That is an interesting situation and it is the role of the Lord Speaker to adjudicate in such cases. However, I thank the House authorities for making the Statement available today. It is important, and must be made. Perhaps there is some way in which the usual channels could be changed so that we can get these Statements brought forward.

This is one of the most interesting Statements that I have ever had to talk to. It is the first time that I have been lobbied, as a Front-Bench spokesman, by Members from all sides of the House to make points on one side or the other against their Front Benches. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, has made a strident and excellent speech in support of her view on nuclear power, but that strident view is not shared by her leader in another place.

My Lords, I know that this is timed, but I should like to point out that I did not make a “strident” defence of nuclear. I was asking about the Government’s opinion.

My Lords, perhaps a reading of Hansard will elucidate my misconception.

I am split on the Statement, because half of it—up to point 45—is, for somebody who has been fighting for renewable energy, Christmas come early. It is an excellent Statement, setting out many issues that will be welcomed by those fighting climate change and looking carefully at ways of reducing carbon emissions. Some points are very interesting. I find it particularly interesting because, when I took my Renewable Energy Bill through two years ago, the Government had not taken on board the need for some of these measures, but they are now taking them forward with some alacrity.

The issues in which I am particularly interested are smart metering, which should be in every house, microgeneration, eliminating standby, combined heat and power—especially large-scale combined heat and power, which is not utilised at the moment—and energy-saving light bulbs, which should not be underestimated. As has been pointed out, the use of energy-saving light bulbs in this Chamber is saving the House authorities £3,000 a year.

A number of questions have to be asked of this Statement. We on these Benches are against nuclear power for two reasons. The first is waste. Are the Government taking the interim report as the final report? Does the Minister believe that there will be any changes between the interim report and the final report? Is that why the Statement is being made before the final report has come out? The second reason is cost. The Government have clearly said that there will be no subsidies for nuclear power. I find that interesting because, in the past, nuclear power has always cost a great deal more than was set out. Indeed, this paper gives different prices for the provision of nuclear and wind power from the ones given in the 2002 paper. That might be because nuclear power has become cheaper, but I do not believe that wind power has become more expensive. Can the Minister say whether there will be no subsidy in relation to the emission of carbon or through the regulations dealing with carbon release and nuclear? Will renewable obligation credits be extended to nuclear? There is talk of increasing the renewable obligation from 15 per cent to 20 per cent, and the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, has said that he believes that nuclear is a renewable resource. If that is the case, are the Government changing their view and extending ROCs to nuclear?

Planning will be a vexed issue. The report mentions moving to a position where planning considerations can move forward nuclear power stations. I have some sympathy with the Government, because it is ridiculous to have to argue the case for any specific wind farm or power station when these cases have been argued so many times before. However, I believe that the talk of reducing the role of the public will lead to a backlash against nuclear.

My final point is about carbon storage and capture. On page 119, the report states that the Government will look at future schemes on carbon storage and capture. I am surprised that they have not listed the five schemes that are already taking place. I hope that they will consider substantially increasing the amount of money that is available for research and development, as well as implementation, of carbon storage and capture.

My Lords, before the Minister replies and before I leave the Chamber, I hope that the House will allow me to clarify the situation of the Lord Speaker regarding Statements. I understand that the House adopted the recommendations of the Select Committee on the Speakership, which did not include any responsibility for the taking and repeating of Statements from another place—that remains the responsibility of the usual channels. The Lord Speaker has responsibility for ruling on Private Notice Questions, but that is a separate issue. I hope that that is helpful. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, would not wish additional powers to accrue to the Lord Speaker.

My Lords, I apologise to the Lord Speaker for giving that impression. There was a great deal of confusion. We used the example of the Private Notice Question in relation to the position of the Lord Speaker. I apologise abjectly for giving the impression that the Lord Speaker is involved in Statements.

My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for their contributions, although I thought that the recollection of the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, about past policy on renewables, on which his party has been active, somewhat contradicted the views of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, who seemed to be claiming rather too much enthusiasm for renewables. I cannot recall during the debate—

My Lords, I realise that it is not traditional to interrupt the Minister, but, for the sake of clarity and because there is such a difference between us, I beg that we refer to the noble Baroness as the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Hendon. That would completely clarify that, as the Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer, I do not support nuclear.

My Lords, anyone who has heard the two noble Baronesses discussing energy would never confuse them in any way, shape or form. I did not think that I had to refer to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Hendon, in quite such precise terms because she is the Front Bencher who has just questioned me and it is to her that I am making this response. But I am glad to clarify that point.

I was seeking to say that the party of the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, has had a helpful position on renewables in the recent past and to contrast that with the rather lukewarm perspective of the Official Opposition until the changes that we have noticed in recent months. The noble Baroness made reference to the Energy Bill, which was some three or four years ago now, but I cannot recall the Official Opposition Front Bench being greatly to the fore on these issues at that time. Suffice it to say that I welcome her enthusiasm and pressure today, as I welcome what the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, has said in reiterating his position.

The areas of energy policy where we need to be united as a country are future projections and the work that we have to do. It is welcome that a great deal of this review points to important consensus on many of the proposals—and I include renewals within that framework.

The noble Baroness asked us what we are doing about Russia. As was made fairly clear at the time, the Government do not believe that the nation should express undue anxiety on the question of Russian gas supplies. Russia is destined to be an important supplier to Europe. It is in its interest to supply to Europe. That situation has obtained for more than 40 years over very different regimes in the old Soviet Union and through the Cold War. These pressures on energy supply were subject to pronounced political factors. One of the reasons why we seek to emphasise that we need a full range of contributions to energy production in the country, including the nuclear option, is that, if we do not create a framework within which all potential producers can contribute, we will become dependent on foreign supplies over which we clearly have less control than we have had in recent decades over our own North Sea supplies. The whole House will recognise the change in circumstances there. The problem that occurred last winter when for a short while Russia clashed with the Ukraine was, although it rather dramatically emphasised the situation even for the UK, much more an issue of the European market, including the point about Belgium. We made the strongest representations on improving that market to guarantee future supplies.

In the market that we seek to create, in which we expect the possibility of nuclear provision, nuclear producers will be expected to bear the full costs of construction, operation and decommission. I hope that the noble Baroness recognises that, particularly with regard to decommissioning. We also recognise, as the Statement makes quite clear, that her emphasis on energy saving is well placed. A great deal of the Statement is about energy saving, although I want again to correct the point in the Statement about the 7 per cent of electricity wasted through standby devices. That applies to household energy only, not to the vast consumption of energy by other users.

The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, emphasised the issue of carbon storage. He is absolutely right. Breakthrough in that technology could do an enormous amount not only for coal consumption in this country, but for climate change. If we could find a safe, secure and non-carbon-emitting coal usage, that could point the way for China and India, which are huge coal users. That is why that research is so important. We will give full support to the research, but the noble Lord will recognise that these are still early days.

Both opposition Front Benches have acknowledged that the Statement covers the full range of energy options and is of the greatest significance to the nation. On that basis, and as the response in the other place indicated, we recognise that this is a common problem that must be solved through common solutions.

My Lords, does the Minister accept that if this country is to meet its energy emission targets, have security of supply and continue to grow at a satisfactory rate, nuclear power will play a vital part? When all is said and done about renewables, there are still many problems and uncertainties to overcome. Nuclear power has been tried and proven in France and elsewhere. Will he undertake that the treatment of the nuclear programme will in no way be disadvantageous compared to other forms of energy?

My Lords, we intend to create market conditions in which there are incentives to potential nuclear producers. The background is that nuclear production comprises 20 per cent of our present electricity generation. Of course we are pursuing renewable options with great vigour, but to suggest that through them we could readily bridge that gap within the necessary timescale is to ask a very great deal. That is why it is very likely that nuclear production will play its part in the energy mix.

My Lords, I welcome the Statement and the document, which is a helpful step in the consideration of our options, not least because it does not set one form of generation against another, as some people would try to do. However, there is a point that we should try to clear up at this stage. Will nuclear generation capacity still be subject to the climate change levy? That is one anomaly at the moment. Secondly, while appropriate attention is given to fuel poverty in the document, there is no reference to the targets that the Government set themselves for the elimination of fuel poverty. That will be made more difficult by the recent price rises. There may be some slippage, but there is a deafening silence in that area. What is the Government's view of the targets that they have set themselves for the elimination of fuel poverty by 2010 or 2016, depending on which way you look at it?

My Lords, the latter point is significant and important for the Government. Fuel poverty creates the greatest distress within families. That is why we set a target. My noble friend is right: the substantial increase in fuel prices in recent years has made that situation more difficult, but I reassure him that the elimination of fuel poverty is an important priority for the Government and we will take steps to make progress in that respect.

My noble friend also asked about the climate change levy. European law does not allow us to exempt nuclear power from energy taxes, although it allows some options to exempt renewable sources of energy from energy taxation. The UK applies these exemptions to combined heat and power and to wind power, but it will be recognised that, when we create the market into which nuclear bids will be made, there will be full understanding of the contours of that market. I emphasise that there is no form of subsidy for nuclear power.

My Lords, although I very much welcome the underlying principles of the Statement, can the Minister clarify a point that was made yesterday at Question Time when I intervened and stated my declared interest in carbon emissions from the manufacture of steel conductor rails? He may have mistakenly misled the House by saying that the manufacture of steel conductor rails was more energy-efficient than that of aluminium conductor rails. I have approached the manufacturers of aluminium conductor rails, who advised me that they are 25 per cent cheaper to make and more energy-efficient. Perhaps I can give him the figures that will come through to me this afternoon.

The only indication that daylight saving is not practical comes from the house-building side—that leaving the lights on makes it impractical. I have spoken to the author of the paper, which he wrote in 1990, and he is prepared to reconsider the figures and to include heating and the industrial side. However, no study has been made of the effects of daylight saving and why it cannot reduce the total amount of electricity used in this country by 1 per cent as it does in the United States. Will the Minister therefore look at this again and ask the Government to encourage a study similar to those being conducted in the United States?

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I apologise to the House if I produced an inadequate reply yesterday. The only thing that I can do, in all honesty, is to write to him in detail about this, but I attempted yesterday to indicate that we had looked at his representation and, as I understood it, found that his proposal did not greatly reduce overall carbon emissions, which was the point at stake. The best thing that I can offer to do is to discuss this with him. I will certainly write to him.

Secondly, on daylight saving, on which the noble Lord again waxes eloquently, he may regret that there has not been sufficient study of the amount of energy that could be saved through changes to daylight saving. It will be recognised that this issue has been before both Houses of Parliament for three or four decades, to my knowledge, and has been proposed and debated on very many occasions, but until there is a political will to effect the change, which has quite considerable implications for parts of the country that would be adversely affected by it, it is not surprising that the Government have not undertaken full-scale research into its benefits.

My Lords, are the Government aware that not all of us on these Benches oppose nuclear power? In fact, quite a few of us support it. Is there not something preposterous about some green activists—I do not include my noble friend Lord Redesdale—warning us about the apocalypse of global warning and at the same time advancing ideological objections to the one safe and reliable alternative of nuclear power, which now provides 20 per cent of our energy? In a generally balanced Statement, which we welcome, is there not a certain element of make-believe in trusting that renewables will provide 20 per cent of our energy needs? This is especially true of wind power, which is far more expensive than nuclear power and is environmentally rather destructive because it takes up an enormous amount of land and is harmful to birds. Should the Government not address this without political correctness?

My Lords, the Government have been accused of political correctness in a wide range of policies, but never, to my mind, in relation to energy. Clearly, the evaluation of the benefits of wind power has been carried out very fully and the intermittent factor is an important consideration. Wind power is difficult to locate, certainly onshore. Many people may be in favour of it in principle, but not in favour of the towers when they appear in their environment. On the noble Lord’s more general issue, I recognise that there are differences in his party on the virtues of nuclear power. The task of the Government is to identify energy needs and the productive sources from which energy can be generated, which is why we are creating circumstances in which nuclear may make its contribution.

My Lords, I have given the noble Lord notice of this question, which may seem rather detailed, but I hope that it will seem very relevant. I warmly welcome the proposals in the document—paragraphs 5.132 and 5.133—for a new pre-licensing design authorisation procedure for nuclear reactors as part of a revised planning process. I have been pressing for this for some time and it is very good to see it in the document. Will the noble Lord recognise that this will require a substantial increase—perhaps 25 per cent—in the staff of the Chief Inspector of Nuclear Installations? Is the Minister aware that the Health and Safety Executive wrote in its report to Ministers only last month:

“This may be a significant issue for HSE as recruitment of appropriately qualified and experienced staff has proven difficult for NII in recent years”?

Will Ministers now swiftly approve the HSE’s proposed pay and rewards measures to address that problem? Is it not abundantly clear that without adequate staffing of the inspectorate, the review’s welcome proposals will be gravely prejudiced?

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving me notice of that question, as I doubt that I would have been able to give him much of a reply had he not indicated the nature of his interest. The present prediction for work, excluding new build, is that we will need 192 inspectors. At present, there are 163 in post. The noble Lord has also indicated that a much greater number would be needed under new build. We intend to discuss requirements with the HSE. I reassure the noble Lord that there could be no contemplation of new build and development of the nuclear industry without absolute guarantees on safety, which means a fully staffed inspectorate.

My Lords, in the 1980s, I had the honour to serve in another place on the Select Committee on energy. I remind the Minister and the House that many of the proposals being put forward were recommended by that Select Committee in the early 1980s—such as energy saving in homes and factories. The Atkins report recommended that we should proceed very quickly with more combined heat and power. If all those things had been done at that time, including the building of the Severn Barrage which could have provided 6 per cent of our energy, we would not be in this mess now.

I should like to ask two questions. First, on the cost of nuclear power, I understand that the cost per kilowatt hour is estimated to be 2.4p, which is exactly the figure that was given to the Select Committee way back in the early 1980s. But when the industry was privatised and the City got on to the figures, it went up to between 5.5p and 6.5p. What is the real cost of nuclear energy? Does the figure of 2.4p include the costs of decommissioning and the storage of nuclear material?

Secondly, bearing in mind that energy is now one of the top priorities of policy not only in this country but also throughout the world, is it not time that we set up again an independent department of energy rather than subsume it into the Department of Trade and Industry? I hope that the Government will take this request seriously.

My Lords, the organisation of government is the preserve of the Prime Minister, but no doubt he will read with the closest attention the suggestion of the noble Lord that there should be a separate department of energy. Perhaps I may also say that hindsight is a wonderful thing. We lived in a rather different environment in the 1980s. It is also true that it is a joy to stand at this Dispatch Box and say that my party had no responsibility for policy during the 1980s, as he may have noticed. If he is being critical, he can leave this Government and my party out of that criticism.

On the more general points that the noble Lord made regarding costs, in a changing situation the evaluation of costs is very difficult. However, nuclear is currently cheaper than wind generation, but it is more expensive than gas and coal; that is the position it occupies. We intend to create the circumstances in which a full evaluation of what can be contributed to the production of energy over the next 20 to 30 years, and that will include careful consideration of costs by potential producers. The nuclear industry will make up its own mind on those issues.

My Lords, following the questions put by my noble friend Lady Miller of Hendon, I should like to give the noble Lord another opportunity to respond. My question relates to the costs of long-term waste management. The Statement referred to the full share of these costs being met by the private sector. The word “share” implies less than 100 per cent. My noble friend asked the Minister to confirm whether or not this referred to the private sector meeting 100 per cent of those costs and she invited him to respond by answering yes or no. I so invite him now.

My Lords, the issue is not quite as simple as the noble Baroness suggests. First, we face very substantial historic costs that run into billions of pounds and involve the application of high-level technologies to solve the issues. The noble Baroness will know that CoRWM is to produce its full report by the end of this month and that the Government will respond to it. We are not loading those costs on to the future development of the nuclear industry, but we do say that future costs—build, operation and decommissioning—will be borne by it.

My Lords—

My Lords—

My Lords, it is the turn of the Liberal Democrat Benches.

My Lords, the energy review rightly devotes a good deal of attention to energy saving, admits that more needs to be done and recommends further measures. However, is there not a risk, with the round of measures now in place to stimulate energy saving, that consumers will get rather confused? The Statement repeated by the noble Lord refers to “incentivising” the suppliers. Should we not be seeking to incentivise the users? Is there not one way in which they can be really incentivised—a way to really concentrate the mind—and that is by linking energy saving to reductions in council tax? This is something that most of us would have a good go at if we were given the opportunity. It has been tried by some local councils, with the help of energy suppliers, and I believe it has met with great success.

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord who, as ever, is constructive on these matters. It is quite a daunting task to incentivise the whole of the nation to energy saving, although we think that companies can improve the situation by the development of metering systems which convey accurately to the consumer both the cost of their energy—rather than just a series of figures going around in the rather indecipherable way we all recognise—and potentially perhaps the carbon content to show the impact on the environment. That is something which the companies could do and we are looking at the situation. It would certainly help to alert the consumer to the consumption of electricity, particularly against a background—I am sure the whole House will share my concern—where 7 per cent of our electricity is consumed by standby. That is an appalling figure. If we can succeed in communicating that figure effectively to the nation, we may get improvements in that respect.

I shall pass on to my colleagues the noble Lord’s specific proposal in regard to the relationship between saving power and the council tax. It is an interesting and constructive suggestion but I have no comment to make on it at this stage.

My Lords, I do not think the Minister had a chance to properly reply to the second part of the question of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon. Surely we need in this country a new energy tsar and department so that we can have joined-up thinking between Defra, the DTI, the Department for Transport and the Treasury where all energy matters are concerned.

My Lords, I always love appeals for tsars. There are very few tsars that I hold in high regard, from Vlad the Impaler to Alexander II. I am not sure that problems are solved by that model. It is certainly the case that we need co-ordinated operations by government departments—it is a very important area—but if one were to ask noble Lords to identify other areas where co-ordination could take place, we would revise the structure of Cabinets almost weekly. The noble Lord must recognise that the Statement represents from the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and the Cabinet a significant analysis of the energy needs of this country for several decades ahead and the quite dramatic policies that will need to be put in place in order to guarantee that the lights remain on.

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down—

My Lords, time is up.

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair.]

Clause 4 [Duty to identify children not receiving education]:

moved Amendment No. 23:

I rise to speak to Amendments Nos. 24, 26 and 26A standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Sharp. Amendment No. 24 would do something similar to Amendment No. 23 moved by the noble Lord, Lord Judd. It would require the local authority to be the educator of last resort. In other words, the LEA has to find a place for a child who fails to secure a place at a secondary school and an alternative school, home tuition or a PRU for pupils who are excluded, for whatever reason.

It is one thing identifying the children not receiving a suitable education, as this Bill seeks to do, but someone has to have the duty to provide that education. In the current climate of schools becoming independent and having the right to refuse admission to particular children, there is no mechanism to rectify that situation. I am not normally someone who wants local authorities to have a duty to pick up the pieces of other people's messes, but someone must, in the last resort, have the duty to provide a child with an education—the education to which it has a right. That will have to be the local authority.

Amendments Nos. 26 and 26A have already had the implicit support of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, in what he said in his excellent speech. Amendment No. 26 would end the current exclusion of children detained under an order of court from the statutory right to education. It is currently the case that Section 562 of the Education Act 1996 effectively permits the Secretary of State, local authorities and parents to opt out of any obligations under the Act if the child is detained by the order of a court. Although the local authority may make arrangements for educational provision for such a child, it is under no obligation to do so.

The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child stated in its concluding observations on the UK's second report to the committee in 2002 that it was particularly,

“concerned that children deprived of their liberty in prisons and juvenile detention centres do not have a statutory right to education and that their education is not under the responsibility of the Departments responsible for education and that they do not enjoy support for special education needs”.

Further, in its report on the UNCRC in 2000-03, the Joint Committee on Human Rights concurred. It said:

“We do not find the arguments presented by the Minister for Children and Young People against giving detained juveniles the same rights to education as other children persuasive—indeed we find them puzzlingly contradictory. He argues that such guarantees are unnecessary because the Government is doing all that is required. The same sorts of arguments were made against the application of the Children Act and the consequence was a judicial finding against the Government. We consider that the persistence of the Government's resistance to placing the educational rights of young offenders on a statutory footing is a contravention of the UK's international obligations”.

The JCHR scrutiny report on the current Bill also highlights as concerning the fact that as a result of Section 562, Clause 4, which puts local authorities under a new duty to identify children not receiving education, will not apply to children in custody. The report says:

“These will be some of the most vulnerable children in the LEA's area and in our view it would be preferable if the duty to make arrangements to identify children not receiving education applied to them”.

Without relevant statutory duties in place, the current situation for young people in custody with regard to education is currently very poor. Many of them start with very poor levels of education, and that is widely considered one of the causes of crime. Prison Service Order 4950 stipulates the requirements for prisons holding children. Education should be provided for at least 15 hours a week and the remaining 15 hours must be spent in accredited educative activities, which may include work-based learning. However, there is evidence, as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said, that these levels of provision are not being consistently met. In April, in response to a Parliamentary Question, Fiona Mactaggart said:

“The Youth Justice Board … set the young people's secure estate a national average of 25 hours a week education and training provision, rising to 30 when resources become available. Between April 2005 and March 2006, eight young offender institutions … met the national average and eight did not.

In the 2005–08 service level agreement between the YJB and the Prison Service, each YOI was set an agreed target for the provision of education and training. Between April 2005 and March 2006, five YOIs met their individual target and 11 did not”.—[Official Report, Commons, 27/4/06; cols. 1262-3W.]

Less than 50 per cent reaching their targets is pretty appalling, especially when we know that improving levels of education and training to help a young person get a job is one of the most effective levers to help them to avoid reoffending and to keep out of the downward spiral that is too often the result of getting involved with the criminal justice system. Furthermore, a recent inspection report of Her Majesty’s young offender institution, Wetherby, published in January 2005, found that four out of 10 of the young people were not accessing education or training.

The Government in their recent Green Paper, Reducing Re-offending Through Skills and Employment, recognise these serious deficiencies in the current arrangements. In the light of the Government’s own plans, the Government stated during the Committee stage of the Bill in the House of Commons that they do not feel that the repeal of Section 562 is either necessary or desirable. I find that very puzzling. I believe that by failing to end this discriminatory exemption the efforts to improve the situation will be undermined. As long as that section remains in place, it will continue to be a major barrier to the effective provision of education for children in custody.

Amendment No. 26A probes whether the duties placed on local authorities under the Education Act 1996 apply to children in immigration removal centres. Under that Act, children subject to an order of court are currently exempt, but the situation relating to children in immigration removal centres is not clear. Children in those centres are not placed there by order of court. However, there are clear differentials in standards between education provision in mainstream schools and in immigration removal centres, which calls the status of their education provision into serious question.

I support Amendments Nos. 24 and 26. I apologise to the Committee if I have to slip out in the course of the Minister’s response, as it is the annual general meeting of the Associate Parliamentary Group for Children and Young People in Care, and my presence is necessary to make that quorate.

Clause 4, identifying those children who are not receiving education, is very welcome. It seems to me, however, as it does to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, only to go halfway to meeting the need. I shall give the case of Traveller children as an example. Recently a charity, the Ormiston Children and Families Trust, made a presentation on the needs of children of Traveller families. Three such children spoke of their experience of bullying in schools, of their need to hide their identities as Travellers in schools and, on one occasion, of having a brick thrown through their family home. They also spoke with pride about the occasions when they were encouraged at school to go and speak to their fellow pupils about their cultural heritage, and the impact that had on reducing the bullying towards them.

Nearly 40 years ago the Plowden report identified the concerns about Traveller children not taking part in education, and a report from Ofsted, The Education of Traveller Children, indicated that possibly 10,000 Traveller children were not receiving secondary school education. I know that the Government are taking several important steps in addressing this problem. The development of early years childcare, which can help to draw these families into the education system and build their trust in it, is particularly welcome. Will the Minister say—perhaps he can write to me—what progress has been made on that figure of 10,000 children?

I have no wish to burden schools any further than they already are. I welcome the prioritisation of looked-after children in the admissions for schools. We recognise that these children have been let down badly in the past. I welcome what the Government have done, but I hope that they will consider what more could be done for these other children who have been excluded.

I turn to Amendment No. 26. I believe that 28 per cent of juveniles leaving the prison estate reoffend within two months of doing so. On a recent visit to a secure training centre, the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland of Asthal, and I spoke to a 16 year-old young man, Paul. He told us that he had not been in school for several years and that he did not feel that he had much time for it. In the course of his sentence he made several years’ progress in reading ability. The education at that establishment was clearly first rate, although the Committee will be aware that the quality of provision in secure training centres and young offender institutions is variable. What really came through very clearly from all the people we spoke to on that visit, including the wonderful teachers, the social workers and the psychologists, is that when those children leave that setting, it is as if they come off a cliff. That is a recurrent theme. It is particularly true of young people in care who, sadly, too often enter custody. When they leave custody, there is no connection with services to ensure that they are properly cared for. I hope that the amendment will enable a more thorough approach to connect these children with the services they need when they move on. I hope that the noble Lord will consider that.

Will the noble Lord also consider holding a meeting on this and other matters with the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland? If the noble Baroness is to achieve her goal of reducing reoffending, which is very much a priority of hers, clearly the noble Lord’s department and that of the noble Baroness will have to work together much more closely. If I may say so, the closer the Home Office and the noble Lord’s department work together, the better will his responsibility for vulnerable children be discharged. However, I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, carries a very heavy burden and I do not wish to add to it any more than is absolutely necessary.

I am moving to a conclusion. I believe that the National Health Service was charged with the health of those in prison in about 1999, taking over from the Prison Service. Everyone clearly recognised what an important advance that was. When I visited Feltham young offender institution about a year after that event and spoke with the health department, I particularly noticed the significant decline in children and young people harming themselves. It is widely acknowledged that that was an important step forward. So there is a reasonable expectation that if local education authorities were to take responsibility for the matter we are discussing, there might be further improvement in the consistency and quality of education provision in these settings. One per cent of children entering the juvenile estate have a statement of special educational needs, but it is estimated that 50 per cent actually have special educational needs. That is another argument for better joining up the services provided in prisons with those outside. That might well be done by placing these responsibilities on local education authorities.

In conclusion, for all our sakes it is vital that we improve the consistency of the quality of education offered to juveniles and that we ensure they have a school place when they complete their generally short stay in custody or on remand. Both these amendments might conduce to those ends. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

I speak in support of Amendment No. 26, to which I have added my name. One year and several months on I once again find myself speaking on the very significant matter of Section 562 of the Education Act 1996, which denies young offenders and others the statutory right to a normal education.

In February last year, with very many of the same cast but with a different Minister, and with the support of my noble friend Lord Judd, we tabled an amendment on precisely this matter. I feel that we have probably not made much progress since then. I feel strongly that it is our duty to ensure that young offenders and those with mental health problems have, at the minimum, the same rights to education as all non-detained children.

I am not going to run through the arguments, which have been so ably outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. I remind the Committee of what the Minister at the time, my noble friend Lord Filkin, said about the issue, because he was not at all dismissive. He committed himself and his department to,

“look within the department to ensure that there is clear and strong ownership of this issue, both at ministerial and official level”.—[Official Report, 24/2/05; col. 1450.]

My noble friend also undertook to look into the research that many noble Lords, including me, outlined in that debate and to look at the evidence—some of which has been repeated today. He also said that he would ask his officials at some stage to organise a workshop with some of the organisations referred to in the debate that are experts in this area, to discuss with the department how best to take that forward.

I am not necessarily expecting my noble friend the Minister to report on that, because he was not the Minister at the time. But I hope that we might see some progress on this important matter and that we will take the opportunity of this Bill—which is about good education for all children—to deal with these children who are outside the Act, and outside the jurisdiction of the department and local education authorities.

I follow with great appreciation the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. It is not often in politics—and I have had a long life in politics—that one suddenly sees the clear answer to a problem emerging between all parties in an intelligent and thoughtful debate such as this one. But it is increasingly clear—the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, put this very well—that the problem of a very high recidivism rate among young offenders in prisons and young offender institutions can be met only with much closer co-operation between the Department for Education and Skills and the Home Office. I do not want to add much to the eloquent remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, or the highly informed remarks of my noble friend Lady Walmsley, beyond one or two rather stark comments .

A small percentage of children—probably only between 5 per cent and 10 per cent—follow what might be called a “fateful” path. That path often begins with their exclusion from school. Last year no fewer than 389,560 children were excluded from school, in some cases for only a very short time. But they suffered the experience of exclusion, itself a mark of the trouble that the child is in. Some of those children go on to receive anti-social behaviour orders, and some go on to young offender institutions. The one strand that is absolutely clear from the beginning to the end of this fateful process is that these children are neither educated nor trained to enable them to be a part of modern society, demanding as it is.

I was shocked by figures from the then Home Office Minister, Paul Goggins, in a Written Answer to a Question tabled two years ago in the other place by Charles Hendry. Those figures—the most recent I have been able to find—say it all. In 2004, 81.7 per cent of young offenders—more than four-fifths of the total—had a level 1 or lower standard of literacy. In other words, they were at best semi-literate and in some cases absolutely illiterate. Some 78 per cent were innumerate, nearly four-fifths of the total.

We are considering young men and women who already have, as the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, said, profoundly troubled backgrounds. Then, at a very early stage in their lives, they fall out. They cannot keep up with the education opportunities offered to them. Then, year after year, decade after decade, they sink ever more deeply into a situation in which they can neither cope nor be a part of our society. It is not surprising that such a large number of them end up in young offender institutions and then, all too quickly, end up in prison. Then they are all too quickly written off as members of society other than as those attacking society’s underlying strength and order. The answer lies very much with us.

Having put my name to Amendment No. 26, I wish to add a warm word of support to those so cogently spoken by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and to the convincing support of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, who referred to the debate on this amendment and to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, on 24 February 2005.

Today, I have just received an update from the National Children's Bureau on the statistics that were given earlier. The bureau still says that it is very difficult to access accurate statistical information and to understand whether the number of young people who end up in prison with special educational needs is because they have fallen out of the school system as a result of their learning difficulties not being identified. I hope that some of the amendments to the Bill will help in providing better training for teachers and support people, and in the identification of needs. I hope that my statistics will dovetail with those given by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, rather just being repetition.

The DfES tries to clarify the legal position by admitting that,

“although Statements of Special Educational Need do not apply in custody, there is an expectation that SEN are dealt with according to the Code of Practice”.

That is from the Offenders Learning Journey for juvenile offenders published by the DfES in 2004. The Youth Justice Board also says that it expects STCs and YOIs to comply with the code, but whether they do and whether the expertise of SENCOs is available to every juvenile custodial establishment is unclear. I have not given the Minister notice of that question but I hope that he may be able to touch on it when he replies. If not, perhaps he could write to me before Report.

Interestingly, on its website the Learning and Skills Council, which has responsibility for education provision in YOIs, states that:

“The majority of 15 year olds in juvenile establishments have had little or no formal education or training. As well as low levels of basic skills, many of them have particular learning difficulties that need additional support”.

As my noble friend Lord Listowel and the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, have indicated, although the Youth Justice Board has prioritised the provision of education and training, health and mental health care, and support in finding accommodation post-release from custody, the way in which a secure regime works makes it difficult to offer consistent, targeted and meaningful services. Sentences tend to be short and transfers between YOIs frequent. For example, the take-up of education in different institutions ranges from 80 per cent in one to 39 per cent in another. My source is People leaving Young Offender Institutions, published by the Learning and Skills Council West Yorkshire in 2004. The same report concludes that, unsurprisingly, research shows that,

“the route to rehabilitation for most young offenders is through the attainment of normal milestones—learning to read and write, attending school, gaining qualifications”—

as the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, said—

“getting a job, entering further education and training, finding somewhere to live and maintaining stable family relationships”.

I hope that the Minister will respond very positively to the amendment in his reply and that he will give serious consideration to the idea of the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, who spoke of setting up a workshop and involving the organisations that have been briefing us on this subject. He said:

“We should probably invite some of the institutions with managerial responsibility for those issues so that we get in the skin of the current state of the system and how it is delivering”.—[Official Report, 24/2/05; col. 1450.]

I hope that we have a positive reply from the Minister.

Briefly, these amendments are among the most important on the Bill. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, on Clause 24 and the cost of our failure of these children and young people.

First, I commend warmly to the Minister the words “suitable education” in Amendments Nos. 24 and 26A. Any old education will not do, especially for those whom education has failed. It must be apt for these young people, or it will fail again.

Secondly, I do not know exactly what the intentions for the amendments’ delivery are, but I see the local authority being the champion of these young people’s educational interests, with the power and duty to ensure that they get the suitable education they need. It is getting it that matters. They need a champion, which has been lacking, to see that they do.

I endorse everything that my noble friend has just said. I support these amendments; they are some of the most important amendments we shall discuss during the passage of the Bill.

I also support the intention behind these amendments. I shall not attempt to repeat the eloquence of so many speakers around the Floor. The Committee clearly regards this as important. I simply ask a question of logic in supporting, for example, Amendment No. 24. Clause 4—which I warmly welcome—imposes a duty to identify children not receiving an education. The logic is that, if we were to go to the primary care trust and give a duty to identify ill people, we stop there. The point is that they should be treated and supported medically. Similarly, there is surely a duty and responsibility lying somewhere—and if not with the local authority, where?—for those needing support, having been identified as not receiving adequate education.

Clause 4 imposes an important new duty on local authorities to identify children missing from education. The various amendments seek to amend that new duty in different ways, introducing new provisions for children in custody or otherwise in detention.

Amendment No. 23, in the name of my noble friend Lord Judd, extends the duty on local education authorities to identify children on a school roll who are not receiving a suitable education, as well as those who are missing education altogether. We completely endorse and support my noble friend’s concern on this issue, but the amendment is unnecessary. Schools are already under a statutory duty to monitor attendance through the daily attendance register and can access support from the LEA education welfare service when there are attendance issues.

Moreover—and this goes to the heart of the duties on local authorities referred to by my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland—schools are also already required by the Education (Pupil Registration Regulations) 1995 to notify local education authorities of the name and address of every registered pupil of compulsory school age who fails to attend regularly or is absent from school for a continuous period of more than 10 school days. It is then the duty of the local education authority to take appropriate action. The issue of precisely what they do must of course be kept under review and, I am sure, can be improved in some cases. Absence of duty is not the issue, however. Equally, the duty proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, in Amendment No. 24, which requires local education authorities to provide suitable education for children identified as not registered at a school and not receiving suitable education otherwise than in a school, already exists under Section 19(1) of the Education Act 1996.

I have a couple of questions arising from what the noble Lord has said. He referred to Section 19(1) of the Education Act 1996, which allows part-time education. Clause 94 of the Bill imposes an obligation for full-time education on the local education authorities for excluded pupils. Therefore, to match that, should we not amend Section 19(1) so that for the other children, about whom we care presumably just as much, the obligation is there for full-time education?

Secondly, the noble Lord referred to this strange diaspora of children who are in prison or being educated in this or that way by local education authorities or otherwise. Can we have some form of reporting system on the performance of these children about whether the various obligations are being met, so that we can see where the problems lie, how big they are and what we must do about them? I am not aware that the educational performance of children in prison is published. Surely it should be. The educational performance of children in PRUs tends to be pretty patchily reported. Especially as these are children about whom we care deeply—because if we do not look after them well, they will have a great deal of trouble in their lives and we will have a great deal of trouble as a result—we should have a better reporting system than we do.

It may be helpful if I respond to that specific point. Pupil referral units are inspected by Ofsted, but I shall write to the noble Lord and copy to the Committee the set of measures that we have in place for tracking performance of the pupils whom he mentioned. Section 19(1) of the Education Act 1996, which I have in front of me, states:

“Each local education authority shall make arrangements for the provision of suitable full-time or part-time education at school or otherwise than at school for those children of compulsory school age who, by reason of illness, exclusion from school or otherwise, may not for any period receive suitable education, unless such arrangements are made for them”.

I am happy to take further legal advice, but I take that reference to “suitable full-time or part-time” as meaning that, where suitable education is full time, that should be the arrangement that the local education authority makes.

That has certainly not been the case in the past. Local education authorities have used that section to provide part-time education for excluded pupils, which I think is why Clause 94 is in the Bill, making full-time provision compulsory. I do not share the Minister's optimism about how that section has been read in the past.

I share the view that the issues raised in this debate are hugely important, but I shall not delay the Committee. It seems unrealistic simply to throw more and more responsibilities at the local authority. In my experience, there is no evidence that all local authorities either have been able to or have in fact honoured their obligations in any of these respects, especially in relation to excluded children.

More important, I did not hear the word “family” mentioned once. Even when children are very detached and damaged, they have families and they work in a context—they are not individuals floating around. Part of the rethink that we should be having about the needs of those children is how we can integrate them either back into their own family group or, if their family group is totally unsuitable, into some other group so that they can have a feeling of belonging.

I shall pursue two questions with the Minister very quickly. First, he gave very encouraging figures about the Youth Justice Board and the big increase in the amount of education. I accept that, but can he say whether what is sometimes called “churning”—moving people from one institution to another—has had any substantial effect during the past year or two on the continuity of education in youth offender institutions? A difficult problem has arisen from looking for additional places and beds, which tends to disrupt the educational flow. The other question is whether, given the figure of £34,000-plus that I gave, as against £3,800, he has considered the possibly radical thought that some young people coming out of young offender institutions might go to boarding school.

We are indeed considering placing vulnerable children in boarding schools where that would be appropriate and where boarding schools feel that they can take responsibility for them. I agree with the noble Baroness; boarding schools could have a role to play. Indeed, if there was better engagement with the boarding sector, one would hope that some of those children would not end up in the youth offender institutions in the first place. We are considering promoting more boarding education for children in care or at risk. I will write to the noble Baroness on her first point.

Before the noble Lord, Lord Judd, withdraws his amendment—or perhaps he will not—I will respond on my amendments and thank noble Lords who have supported them. On Amendment No. 24, the Minister said that local authorities already have such a duty. Then why is it not happening? Why are there children who are not receiving suitable education? Perhaps local authorities need reminding.

I shall not detain the Committee for more than a moment, but I had not realised that the Government had quadrupled their investment in the education of children in the juvenile estate between 2002 and 2005. I warmly welcome the commitment shown by the Government to these children. I also welcome what the Minister has said about the continuity of education and the fact that school rolls will be kept open for four months. That is an important step forward, which I welcome. It was news to me.

I shall ask a very brief question. Does Ofsted inspect the quality of the provision of education to young people in detention centres and prisons? Who is their champion?

There will be general agreement that this has been a particularly good debate. I would like to express my own appreciation for the contributions made by those who have spoken to amendments that are kindred to my own. I hope that the Minister has listened—I am sure he will have done—not only to the force with which the arguments were put but to the strength of them. I shall make a couple of comments.

The noble Baroness, Lady Williams, mentioned immigration, and I am very glad that she did. It would be obscene if we, as a country that regards itself as civilised, were to deprive children who were suffering all the trauma, uncertainty and upset of the immigration processes, whatever the outcome at the end, of the right to education. These children have not generated the situation in which they find themselves. We as a responsible nation must fulfil our obligation to support them in every way possible.

I should like to make one further point which I hope will not be regarded as over the top, because I believe it to be highly relevant. We are so often in our deliberations in this House concerned with security and the battle for hearts and minds. How can it be helping in the battle for hearts and minds to send away children who find themselves in a process of that kind, having, on top of everything else, not had the opportunity of any kind of educational support? Is that winning the battle for hearts and minds? Or is it indirectly assisting in the process of alienation on which the extremists play?

The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, has again spoken—and again particularly powerfully—on rehabilitation. I think that the whole House respects his direct experience, commitment and genuine belief in these matters. I do not understand how it makes sense in any of our penal policy to punish without a commitment to rehabilitation. I of course accept completely the need for punishment, but the challenge is rehabilitation and how we turn people who have offended, wherever possible, into decent, constructive, productive members of society. That is the big challenge. Locking them up is the easy part. The challenge is to win them back to a constructive part in society. That is a challenge to all that we say is the basis of our civilisation, but it is also economic sense. As has been said in this debate, if we do not do that we are piling up trouble and extra expense for ourselves.

I was very struck by what my noble friend said on the measures that he has just put in place on assisting with continuity of education in this context. We will all be watching with great interest and it was extremely encouraging to hear that. But—I hope that he will forgive my saying so—I do not think that he dealt fully, in his otherwise helpful reply, with my amendment, which was specifically targeted at those who are informally excluded. I believe that the informally excluded is the real issue. Whatever our intentions, I do not think that it is a problem which will easily go away. It would be helpful therefore to give the local education authority a direct responsibility for ensuring that it is tackled.

Incidentally, the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, was slightly sceptical—to put it mildly—about piling responsibilities on local education authorities. I would say to the noble Lord, whom I greatly respect, that—if we accept that a local education authority has responsibility for the educational system and that the system is intended to ensure that the right of the child to education is applied—it seems absolutely self-evident and logical, that you therefore give the same body the task of ensuring that that right is being fulfilled.

I believe that in all legislation what is necessary is not what we come to understand in this House through the processes of our own tortuous debate as being the intention and purpose of legislation; it is the clarity, the thrust and the understanding of the legislation in wider society as a whole, particularly by those who have responsibility. It seems to me that the Minister in being helpful has underlined the problem. He has referred to this responsibility here and that responsibility there, and this provision here and that provision there. My amendment and, I think, other amendments have sought to say, “Look, we are all committed to the right of the child to education”. If we are committed to that right, we must be committed to an effective way of delivering it, not one in which people have to delve into the files to see where the responsibility lies. The most straightforward and clear-cut way of doing this is simply to say that the local education authority, in providing and ensuring that a system is in place, is also responsible for ensuring that the right is being enjoyed by every child within its area. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, who is always so effective in these debates, was absolutely right to point out that if at the end of our tortuous deliberations we come to the conclusion that residually the local education authority does somehow have the responsibility—I remain to be totally convinced that that is categorically clear—why not simplify it by stating in the Bill that it is responsible?

The Minister has been helpful, as he always is. We shall go away and consider very carefully what he has said and I hope that that is a mutual situation. We shall also consider whether and how it might be appropriate to return to this matter on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 24 and 25 not moved.]

Clause 4 agreed to.

[Amendments Nos. 26 and 26A not moved.]

Clause 5 [School improvement partners]:

moved Amendment No. 27:

I must advise the Committee that if this amendment is agreed to I will be unable to call Amendments Nos. 28 to 32 inclusive because of pre-emption.

I shall speak first to Amendment No. 27 and then to Amendments Nos. 37, 38 and 40, all of which seek to change the nature of the school improvement partner’s role.

I share the wish of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, to make appropriate assistance and support available to all members of the school community, so let me explain the remit of the school improvement partner—or SIP, as I will refer to it from now on—which has elements of both challenge and support and which, as the noble Baroness has reminded us, is part of the lighter touch, less bureaucratic, new relationship with schools.

The “challenge” part of the SIP remit is the key process by which schools are held accountable to their maintaining authority. This part of the remit therefore needs to be determined by the local authority so that the line of accountability is clear.

The SIP, as a “professional critical friend”—as the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, quoted—will help to challenge and focus the school’s leadership team on the school’s self-evaluation, leading to agreeing priorities and targets to improve pupil attainment, attendance and behaviour. The SIP will challenge on those key aspects for which the school is accountable to the local authority—the maintaining authority.

The SIP’s support role is important but limited in scope. It is focused on helping identify and broker assistance for the school, relevant to the school’s needs and the needs of the school community, where appropriate. But the determination of assistance for a school is for the school itself. It is not for the school improvement partner to throw its weight around, making determinations. That is very much part of the self-evaluation to which schools have signed up.

Amendment No. 27 covers academies and city technology colleges. In law, these are independent state schools. Therefore, we feel it would be inappropriate for local authorities to appoint their improvement partners. That is not to say that the external accountability of these publicly funded schools is any less important. The equivalent maintaining authority to which academies are accountable is the Secretary of State. Accordingly, the SIPs are contracted to the DfES, and no legislative support is required to do that. By September 2006, we are planning for 45 academies to be working with their school improvement partners.

The amendment would also remove the requirement for the SIP to provide advice to the governing body of the school. That may not be the amendment’s intended effect, but that is what it does. Since a school’s governing body is responsible for the school’s strategic direction, the school improvement partner needs to interact with the governing body as well as with the head teacher. The SIP will offer the governing body a professional view on the overall direction of the school and will have specific responsibility for advising governors on the head teacher’s performance management objectives and the school’s performance management arrangements. The range of meetings and other contacts between the SIP and the governors for this work will of course be for local determination. Quite a lot of flexibility is built into this programme.

Finally, the amendment opens up a potential danger. It does not say specifically that every maintained school is to have a school improvement partner. Accountability, as I said earlier, is essential for every school, and we need to be able to head off decline even in schools currently performing satisfactorily.

Amendment No. 37 would hamper our efforts to guarantee national standards in the ways that local authorities hold their schools to account. School improvement partners will need to provide a consistently high standard of challenge and support to all schools, and be credible to schools. National accreditation is therefore essential to help achieve this and to provide assurance to local authorities and schools about the experience and quality of the individuals they will be working with as SIPs.

We have introduced a system to provide this. School improvement partners are accredited by the National College for School Leadership and the National Strategies contractor, go through a vigorous training programme and are involved in continuous professional development. However, I can assure noble Lords that local authorities will play a key role. They will be responsible for appointing SIPs and deploying them to schools in their areas. The SIP will be primarily accountable to the employing local authority. Authorities will also share with the National Strategies contractor the continuing professional development of SIPs.

Amendment No. 38 goes further than Amendment No. 37 by removing the role of the Secretary of State altogether from the requirements for accreditation and by seeking to remove from the clause the regulation-making power available to the Secretary of State. We have set out our minimum policy requirements on the face of the Bill—that each school should have a SIP and that each SIP should be nationally accredited. Those are the minimum requirements. But as with any policy, there are other more detailed requirements that it would not be appropriate to put into primary legislation but where the Secretary of State needs to be able to legislate if necessary. We have therefore created reserve powers in subsections (3) and (4) of the clause to enable the Secretary of State to put more detailed requirements into regulations should the need arise. We would consider using these powers only in the event of widespread or persistent failure by local authorities to implement the school improvement partner function in accordance with government policies.

On Amendment No. 40, desirable as school federations certainly are—we are enthusiastic supporters—I do not believe that they are an adequate substitute for a school improvement partner. We want every school to have a school improvement partner to reflect our commitment to the potential of every child being fulfilled. Federations of two or more schools can make a major contribution to the raising of standards. We are keen to support federations and other forms of partnership among schools and we are building on the success of these partnerships in our proposals for trust schools.

However, when schools federate they do not lose their individual identities or accountabilities to the maintaining authority. They receive funding individually and they are subject to inspection individually, so the SIP has a separate role for each member school. To facilitate that role, it will often make sense for a single SIP to be deployed to each of the members of a federation, but the SIP role has to remain distinct for each member school. To maintain the integrity of its challenge function it would not be appropriate for the head teachers of schools in a federation to act as SIPs to one another.

Aside from the principled arguments, the amendment proposes a very imprecise criterion be put into legislation—that of two or more governing bodies, head teachers and senior management teams having merely agreed to work together in the way proposed—and I do not believe that that would be workable. On the basis of those arguments I invite the noble Baronesses to withdraw their amendment.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, asked whether we are confident that there is capacity in the system for a suitable and adequate supply of SIPs. The evidence so far has been quite positive. I understand that 51 local authorities have appointed secondary school improvement partners and 99 local authorities have said that they will appoint SIPs by September this year. We have had more than 2,000 responses to the advert that went out at the beginning of the year for the four waves of school improvement partners for primary schools. So we believe that the supply is there. They are in the main serving current or former head teachers and some senior school advisers.

On funding, we understand that there will be a need to supplement funding and not have that as a burden on local authorities. The steady state of funding on this is £28 million, of which £21 million will be supplied directly by the department to local authorities. With that, I hope that I have answered the noble Baroness’s questions.

I apologise to the Minister for asking her these questions after she has spoken, although I believe that that is permissible in Committee. One reason for that is that there are aspects of the SIP proposal that I did not think that I had fully understood, so it has been extremely helpful for her to have said more about it.

There are three things that I find profoundly worrying—and I do not pretend not to be profoundly worried about some aspects of the SIP proposal, although I can see that in some circumstances it could be helpful and useful. First, I echo the question asked by my noble friend Lady Sharp of Guildford, which I do not think the Minister completely answered, on the source. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, was kind enough to copy to me a letter that he had written to the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, on the subject, in which he confirmed what the Minister has just said—that he expected most SIPs to come from the body of serving, retired and in some cases seconded head teachers and that a few additional people might be drawn from school management teams.

My profound worry is, as the Minister will agree, that we face an extremely serious problem about head teachers. More and more responsibility for leadership now rests on head teachers and the problem is particularly serious with primary schools, which is the group to which the Government intend to extend the requirements of the Bill in the very near future. I happened to look through the Times Educational Supplement for this week, last week and the week before and in every case there were five, six or seven pages packed with advertisements for primary school head teachers. In some cases, as the Minister is aware, there have been primary schools that have had to replace head teachers several times—the most extreme example being Dunmore school in Abingdon, which has had 13 head teachers in 10 years, many of them in the past few years.

I raise this because everything in the Bill rests on the capacity and ability of head teachers to respond to a huge range of additional responsibilities, challenges and requirements for standards. I wonder whether weakening the pool of head teachers in this way is wise—and it is not simply me who says that. For example, the deputy assistant secretary of the children’s care services in Oxfordshire responding about Dunmore said that there was a rapidly dwindling supply of well qualified and motivated people to become head teachers. That is sadly generally true.

Secondly, I was not clear—although this may be my fault, in which case I apologise—on the position of trust schools and academies. Was the Minister implying that they would have to have a SIP but that the appointment would be made by a governing body and not a local education authority?

Thirdly, I am troubled about what could be the quite difficult personal relationships between SIPs and the head teachers. What happens if there is a direct conflict? That is one reason why my noble friend proposed the idea that there should be only one SIP; schools might agree to federate just so one would not have personal conflicts about what the objective of the school was. All of us who have been involved in education for a long time will be very much aware that the good head very much cherishes his or her right to make the final decision in his or her judgment. Indeed, you cannot be a good head unless you have confidence in your judgment.

I am troubled by whether SIPs, especially if they are seen to be answerable to the Secretary of State—and I repeat, “seen to be”—might be seen by heads as undermining their authority, particularly if the head has a view about how to conduct education which is not the same as the SIP’s. Can the Minister say something about whether that would go to a school adjudicator and how it would be handled? I ask the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, to forgive me if I am trespassing on his territory, but I know that he and I share a profound concern about what happens if there is a personal conflict or sharp disagreement on strongly held grounds between a SIP and a head teacher, and how that would be resolved.

I hope that I may also be forgiven for intervening here, as this is very much on one of the points that the noble Baroness has just raised. The whole business of exactly how this will work was explained by the Minister. That was not clear even from the very detailed letter that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, sent us. I endorse the fact that if the SIP is seen as accountable—and I endorse, too, the words “seen as”—to the Secretary of State, as the Bill seems to imply, rather than appointed by the local authority, that might prove problematical.

I was particularly interested in the percentage quoted in the letter from the Minister. I think that it was a figure of 80 per cent of primary school applicants who had head teacher experience and 50 per cent were still heads. When I read that originally, I thought it was a good idea. It would be a way forward, perhaps, when teachers wanted some flexible working—maybe during a family career break. That would be one very useful aspect. It might also be useful for head teachers getting to the point when they wanted to do less work; it might be a way for them to scale down, while providing their absolutely excellent experience to other schools and head teachers and—very importantly—to governing bodies. That could be a hugely important role. Some governing bodies might know from their own experience in different parts of the education world what was going on outside which might be stimulating for that school; but to have it as a duty so the governing bodies have that extra help will, I am sure, be helpful.

I should like to hear a little more detail about how the Government see the pool of recruitment growing. I should love to think that this will not diminish applications for head teacher, particularly at the primary school level, but will improve the ways of flexible working and perhaps keep more teachers for longer in the profession.

I hope that it will draw back into schools all those head teachers who have retired at 60. I know that noble Lords find the idea of retiring at 60 ridiculous—indeed, retiring at 85 is something of a problem for us. A lot of teachers who retire may require a break of a year or two to start to miss school, but they often do after a while, and they should be welcomed back in this role. I am delighted that the Government have found a role for them, but this role sounds like something that has been dreamt up in Communist China, where you have a party representative in every factory. There will be an LEA spy responsible to the LEA in every school. Fine, you will survive that in the ordinary course of events—but if you get difficulties or conflicts, that person will very quickly be regarded as the enemy and not as the critical friend. That is a fundamental difficulty in what is being done here.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, in his letter to my noble friend, referred in the fourth paragraph to a trial and went on to say that those head teachers who had SIPs,

“especially in relation to the value of challenge and support from a credible professional”,

had said what a good thing they were. Is that information that the Minister would be prepared to put in the Library? Is the result of the trial something that he would be prepared for us to see, along with the subsequent comments by head teachers? It would not damage anybody to make that public, and it would give me a lot of confidence that this will in general work well.

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, I see a conflict here. When things are tough, you want someone who sees their role as being a critical friend, but as your friend first, and who is not there to report to someone else. If you are in the business of choosing that person, do you want the choice imposed on you by someone else who does not understand the personalities or your priorities, or, to get the best critical friend, are you going to want to have a say yourself? We are trespassing a bit on subsequent groups of amendments, so I will not speak for too long—although this should all be one group, in my view. None the less, I wanted to enlarge on the points that the noble Baroness raised.

We might be getting this a bit out of proportion. My experience is that this sort of role exists now in a fair number of schools and, where it exists, is welcomed by head teachers. The advisers, who are called “mentors” or a range of other things at the moment, work best when they are people with experience, but who are a little more than just friends. Where I do not agree with the noble Lord is that at times they will have to be pretty critical in order to get things moving; if the person was always someone who the head teacher was entirely sure would be a friend before a critical friend, that would be a mistake and would not be worth the investment. We have to be careful and make sure that, while the role is that of a mentor and entails working with the staff and governors, it is also about improving the schools, not just making people feel comfortable.

I am not going to wind up at this point, but I have one more question for the Minister. She mentioned that at the moment 55 local education authorities have appointed SIPs and 99 are in the process of appointing them.

Fifty-one.

Fifty-one local education authorities have already appointed SIPs. That implies that there are a limited number of people who would take on a duplicate role with lots of different schools. What then is the difference between the role of the old local authority adviser, who was often a retired head who went around and advised current heads, and the role of the SIP? My impression is that what the Government really wanted was a much more intimate, friendly relationship of the sort that the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, referred to. That was one reason why we picked up the idea of doing this within federations—you pick your own friend within a federation, to some extent, but their role is to be a critical friend. It seems that this will not work entirely satisfactorily if you get an old education authority hack—this applies particularly to primary schools—with 20 primary schools under their wing, to fulfil the old local education authority adviser role. I would like to know what the difference will be.

I shall reply to the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, to begin with. Where a former head teacher is a SIP, there will be very little difference in the quality of the experience, advice, support and challenge that will be given. The vast majority of the SIPs operating in the future will be current or former head teachers. They will, however, have gone through a vigorous training process. They will not be “old hacks”. They will, for example, have to have looked at, under quite strict conditions, all the new data that are now available to local authorities, schools and the Secretary of State.

Today, for example, we can put together data on children who have free school meals with data on their academic performance. That was not the case even a few years ago. The data are becoming finer and finer. The new SIPs, with that training, will have to be able to deal with that, to talk as a critical friend to heads about those data and to encourage heads to see from those data whether they are reaching their targets. That is just one example of how these people will be under constant professional development and have vigorous training. However, the majority will be head teachers.

How much will these people be paid? The amount of money being put aside indicates that it is about £1,000 per school. If the rate is £1,000 for 19 days, that does not seem like very much money for highly trained professionals.

I am very happy to write to the noble Baroness about the details of pay. The payment systems will be different for different SIPs. It depends whether you are a current head teacher and this is additional to your responsibilities, or a retired head teacher who is a consultant and who would want a fee for the day. There is not just one system of payment. For maintained schools, it will be up to local authorities to decide, in consultation with the SIP, which method of payment will be most appropriate. I am happy to write to the noble Baroness with more detail on that.

I hope that I have answered all the questions asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams. I am sorry if I did not make my next point clear, but SIPs are not appointed by the Secretary of State. They are accredited by people whom the Secretary of State appoints, such as the National College for School Leadership and the national strategies. The appointment is made by the local authority because the SIP is a key part of the local authority’s accountability for the school. The SIP is accredited by the Secretary of State because we want high standards nationally for all these people and we want schools to be reassured about those standards. However, the appointment is made by the local authority. On conflict, if a head teacher does not get on with—

Before the Minister deals with conflict, I asked whether not only maintained schools would be required to have SIPs but trust schools and academies, as set out in my noble friend’s amendment, and, if so, who would appoint them and whether they would require the Secretary of State’s approval.

In the case of academies, the Secretary of State would appoint the SIP. However, the SIP would go through the same accreditation process and would have the same role as SIPs for local authority maintained schools.

Perhaps we could explore conflict and what happens if a SIP does not get on with a head, or vice versa, when we discuss the next group of amendments, which cover that.

I am grateful to the Minister for responding at length to all our questions. I am also grateful to those who participated in the debate. We are all clearer about the whole purpose of SIPs and how they will be appointed. The Minister said that the Government wished to change the nature of the role, but I am not sure that that is the case. We looked to the local authority to appoint the person and we accepted accreditation through the National College for School Leadership. However, we argued strongly—and we still argue this—that in the case of academies, city technology colleges and so on the person should be appointed at a local level, not by the Secretary of State. We have parted company with the Government on that issue on many occasions.

We are sceptical about whether we will find enough people to fulfil these roles and whether there is enough money in the system for that. If 19 days are involved, a sum of £28 million has been put aside and there are roughly 25,000 schools in the country, that is, roughly speaking, £1,000 per school. That will not go very far and it is not much of an incentive. Nevertheless, we have had a very interesting debate. I have certainly learnt a lot about the Government’s proposals. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

moved Amendment No. 28:

I must advise your Lordships that if this amendment is agreed to, I will be unable to call Amendments Nos. 29 to 32 because of pre-emption.

I have a number of amendments in this group, and by and large they support what my noble friend has just said. I shall start off with a request and a question. My request is whether I may have an answer to the question that I asked in the last group of amendments about whether we might see the result of the trial.

It is published.

I would love to know where; that would be a great help.

Secondly, what is happening to Amendment No. 36? It does not appear to be on the groupings list. Perhaps I am just being blind. It has not been referred to. Are we covering it now or later? Some guidance would be appreciated.

The difficulty that I have might be illustrated by imagining that the Minister and his team at the Department for Education and Skills were approached by the Treasury, who said, “We think that ministries could do with a better understanding of financial affairs, so we are going to give you a Minister who is expert in these areas, who will hang around for 20 days a year and make sure that you are up to scratch in these things”. I think under those circumstances that any departmental team worth its salt would say, “No; if we need that sort of expertise we will appoint it ourselves”. It matters a great deal whether the person who is advising you and helping you is regarded, in ordinary day-to-day things, as part of your team and as part of the way that the school works; although you regard them as your peer and as having a lot of independent and real expertise, and you understand at the end of the day that they have responsibilities that run outside the school.

I can see that I am not going to win this argument, and I will wait and see how these things go, but I foresee that conflict will occur. I also think the provision misses a great opportunity, in that these people ought to be operating between LEAs. There is such a difference between the practices of LEAs.

To come back to a matter that I mentioned on the first day in Committee, and which was raised by the noble Baroness just now, there is a lot of data out there. I have looked at these data on special educational needs in primary schools, and children with special educational needs in Windsor and Maidenhead have more or less the same value added as those without them. If you go right down the list to Slough, just a few yards away on the other side of the Thames, children with special educational needs are doing about half a key stage 3 worse than children without them. That difference is not affected in any way by the proportion of free school meals. There is no correlation there. The difference is not affected by language or race, as far as I could discover, and it is not affected by the overall level of results achieved by a local education authority. All of those figures have been run through wonderful statistical engines for me in Oxford, and I can see no correlation whatever.

My conclusion from that is that we have here an effect that depends on the way in which a local education authority supports its schools. If you talk to some of the better LEAs, as we have, you can see just how supportive and effective they are in helping schools deal with the questions that arise regarding supporting children with special educational needs and why they might be doing so well. Well, that is fine; but if Windsor and Maidenhead has its own SIPs and Slough, across the water, has its own, the expertise in Windsor and Maidenhead will never cross into Slough. It will never find out what it could be doing better to vastly improve the average performance of nearly 20 per cent of its pupils—and it has not done so by any existing mechanism.

If there was a system in which SIPs were subject not to LEAs but were appointed by schools, and if I were a school in Slough, the first thing that I would do would be to appoint someone who knew the Windsor and Maidenhead system, because a great deal is going on there that I should be picking up. That would never happen if SIPs were responsible to LEAs, because LEAs are so jealous of each others’ performance. If they were not, that difference would not persist.

While I am concerned at a personal level that the Government’s proposals will not work, they miss a big opportunity for cross-fertilisation between local education authorities in practices that have become common at LEA level.

I support the amendments in this group, particularly the probing Amendments Nos. 33 and 35, and I shall refer also to Amendment No. 28. The noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, was concerned over the grouping and not being sure about whether to jump up. So, I have seized this opportunity of jumping up now to say that a school improvement partner has an important role in a school—and that is obvious. But, if the person appointed is not in sympathy with the character, ethos, or purpose of the school, the advice and support that they offer will not be as effective as it should be. It may even be counterproductive and, in a worst-case scenario, could be disruptive or even destructive.

Local education authorities could make a mismatch and misjudgment—after all, they are only human. However, if, as Amendment No. 28 proposes, the governing body of a school made the appointment, that would be less likely. We on these Benches support the thrust of the amendments.

I have tabled Amendments Nos. 35 and 42 in this group, which I shall discuss together. The first concerns the incompatibility issue, to which reference has been made already. The proposal is that if, after two years, it is clear that the relationship is not working, the governing body should be able, if the local authority will not agree to a change, to make application to an adjudicator for a decision on a change. That would not be saying that a person would be unsuitable to be a school improvement partner, but that he would not fit in those circumstances. If this is going to work, the two people must be partners and critical friends.

I have to admit that people whom I have dealt with in my career and whom I have admired greatly would not be the kind of friends who would get on with me. Imagine the reaction of some right honourable gentlemen who have been Secretaries of State if some other right honourable gentleman had walked through the door and said, “I have come to help you for 19 days”. Some relationships just do not work, although they may involve admirable people. So, when the relationship is not working, it is necessary to have the provision proposed by my amendment. Amendment No. 33, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, refers to that point—as did the right reverend Prelate.

These Benches have great sympathy with the two amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Dearing. The issues being discussed are the degree to which a SIP should be compulsory and the degree to which a school should choose its own SIP. We have much sympathy with both issues. The model that we were picking up from the Government and trying to put forward was one which, to a degree, moved in that direction, although it was still left to the local authority to appoint—but we were looking at the federation model as a self-choosing model. We have much sympathy with the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, which removes the “must” and allows the school to decide its own partner.

I, too, support Amendments Nos. 33 and 35, because they are essential safeguards if we are to go ahead with the Bill as it is roughly constituted. There may, however, be a better way, suggested in the other amendments in this group, by giving to the governing body responsibility for appointing a SIP. That body will know what its needs are and will have to live with the consequences. That is important, also.

I wish to ask a question about compulsion and the extent to which that might be moderated. If it is compulsory to have a SIP, one could envisage a situation where a head teacher who is about to retire, who is trained and accredited as a SIP, gets a letter on his last day saying, “You are now an accredited SIP”. The next day, the new head teacher gets a letter saying, “Your school requires a SIP, although your predecessor was good enough to run a very good school and be accredited as someone who can help other schools”. Even more improbable would be the possibility of a head teacher being accredited as a SIP and getting a letter appointing them with the PS: “Someone will be in to help you and your school next week”. That is the logic of the compulsion laid out in the Bill.

This group of amendments is about aspects of the appointment of school improvement partners. I shall speak first to Amendments Nos. 28, 29, 31, 34, 39 and 41. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, asked about Amendment No. 36. I understand that that was debated last week.

Local authorities have responsibility for the standards and levels of attainment in the schools they maintain, and schools are accountable to their maintaining local authorities. We are introducing school improvement partners to support that accountability. It is therefore right that each school's SIP should work for the local authority under its direction and be contracted to that authority. We expect the local authority to pay attention to the preferences and needs of individual schools when deploying SIPs, which might well entail discussion with the governing bodies. Once appointed to work with a school, the SIP will need to be sensitive and responsive to the views of the governing body. But the role of the school improvement partner is to provide external challenge and support to the school. That challenge and support are more likely to be consistently effective if the SIP is appointed by, and accountable to, the maintaining authority rather than the governing body of the school, which is responsible for the school.

Amendment No. 34, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, seeks to specify that the local education authority shall remunerate the school improvement partner appointed by the school governing body. We believe that the amendment is not necessary. Some local authorities are already employing or engaging school improvement partners, which is quite rightly part of their role. My department also provides funding to local authorities to help them run the SIP programme, and that funding includes an element for the remuneration of the SIP as appropriate.

Amendment No. 42, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, concerns the time that each school improvement partner will spend with the school. The interaction of school improvement partners with schools will not be uniform. Our guidance is that each SIP will devote five days a year to the school, but that is an average for all schools. There is sufficient flexibility in the system which will allow for the days allocated to each school to reflect the needs and context of each school. It is quite right that this level of detail should not be dictated by the department. Local authorities will be able to appoint SIPs and allocate them to schools, reflecting local context and local priorities and tailored closely to the school's individual needs and circumstances.

Amendments Nos. 30, 32 and 43, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, seek to relax the requirement to appoint a school improvement partner to each school. We are committed to the appointment of SIPs for all primary and secondary schools because all schools need to work systematically for improvement. Even in schools that perform well overall there may be underperformance by particular groups of pupils; for example, relatively low achievement by its most able pupils, low achievement by pupils entitled to free school meals, low achievement among members of one particular ethnic minority group—

Does the Minister honestly believe that that kind of under achievement will be sorted out in an average of five days a year?

As training and professional development allow for high standards of peer review for SIPs, if a school needs assistance in a particular area, I believe that it will be better off with five days a year than without it.

A decline in progress among 11 to 14 year-olds is another example, as is low achievement across all pupils in a specific curriculum subject. Even schools doing extremely well sometimes need that extra assistance and challenge. We believe that we would be letting down many thousands of underachieving pupils if we did not extend the SIP function to their schools. We need to be able to head-off decline in currently satisfactory schools. The introduction of SIPs to all schools is also about learning from others and sharing good practice. In our debates last week, noble Lords talked about the importance of the sharing of good practice. Feedback from SIPs, using local authority and national networks, will support all schools in learning from success in particular schools.

I turn to Amendments Nos. 33 and 35. The way that the local authority and the school work together on this has to be approached in a spirit of partnership. When a local authority deploys SIPs, we expect it to pay attention to the preferences, needs and characteristics—including religious characteristics—of individual schools and their governing, bodies. We expect SIPs as well as local authorities to be responsive to the individual circumstances and characteristics of the schools they work with, including their religious characteristics. The national assessment for people seeking accreditation to be SIPs strongly stresses that expectation. It is designed to withhold accreditation from anyone who might work with a school without taking account of its ethos, including religious ethos, and other characteristics.

Authorities will therefore need to manage effectively the SIPs that work with their schools. Authorities will use a range of approaches to that task, including feedback from schools and evidence on the impact that advice from SIPs is having on the schools’ performance. The discontinuance of a SIP’s deployment to a school will be one of the available management actions.

If a governing body has serious concerns about the SIP allocated to its school—and here we return to concerns raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Williams and Lady Buscombe—the first step should be a discussion between the authority and the school. Local authorities are also supported by regional co-ordinators from the national strategies who can help to resolve such issues. The local authority and the school are not the only two players; they can call in help when conflict arises—as they may well do, as the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, suggested.

I hope that that will reassure noble Lords that effective mechanisms are already in place to resolve this kind of conflictual issue. That aside, the use of the schools adjudicator in this area would of course be new work for the adjudicator and outside his current remit. The adjudicator, as noble Lords will know, currently has two main functions: to consider and make decisions on objections to schools' admission arrangements, and to determine proposals to set up, close or make changes to schools.

Noble Lords asked a number of questions and I will try to answer them as quickly as possible. The noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, asked why not let schools appoint their own SIPs. As the debate on Clause 4 illustrates, society has big expectations of the school system that go beyond the concerns of the individual school and the pupils currently on its roll. An external body has to hold schools to account for delivery of those expectations. The SIP works for that body—the local authority—while acting responsively to the schools. The noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, also mentioned SIPs that were to be seconded. When a head teacher works as a SIP, the arrangement is effectively a part-time secondment. The head’s school has notice of the arrangement and financial recompense, money which can be used to back up its organisation and to bring in extra resources.

Several noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, asked for further details on funding.

Perhaps the Minister can clarify something that she has just said. Is the money for all this extra work going to the school rather than the person? That sounds like what she meant.

In the case of a current head, the extra money would go to the school. Perhaps it will be clearer if I make a few more comments on funding.

Establishing the SIP function is an important change for a local authority, and the Government are providing them with funding to facilitate it. The level of funding recognises both the cost of the SIP function—to which the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe referred—and the savings to authorities that the SIP function makes possible. The cost of the SIP function arises from the allocation of SIP time to each school and the allocation of time for each SIP to take part in updating and professional development. Savings arise because, when SIPs start work with an authority’s schools, the authority can discontinue the link adviser function through which authorities currently hold schools to account.

We estimated time allocations and costs for the SIP functions from our experience in trials of the new relationship with schools. We took link adviser time allocations and costs from the benchmarking data. We expect SIP work with each school to require, as I said earlier, about five days a year. Our information suggests that the current link adviser work with a school typically takes three days a year excluding any follow-up school improvement work. We therefore need to subsidise local authorities for the extra two days required for SIPs beyond the current school link work and for SIP-related professional development for SIPs who are serving heads. The subsidy amounts to £2,000 per school with authority set-up costs of £380 per secondary school and £770 per primary. That funding is expected to meet about 75 per cent of authorities’ costs. To save time, perhaps I may undertake to write to all noble Lords on funding, payment and costs. I hope that that will be suitable.

Those replies were very helpful. I thank the Minister. On my second amendment, on time, all that the Minister said was fine. But I want to be clear that the local authority will have the power to insist, if it wants to, that a school improvement partner will spend a lot of time in a school and the school cannot say, “No, we don’t want it”.

On the first point, about the relationship not working, I welcome all that the Minister has said. However, I had hoped, if there is a clear disagreement between the local authority and the governing body, that after a reasonable period of working with a school improvement partner, an independent person could come in and adjudicate on the matter. It does not matter if it is the adjudicator or whoever.

I very much—

As we are in Committee, perhaps I can reply to the noble Lord, Lord Dearing and then the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, can come in.

On the question of time and the local authority, I think I am correct in saying that the local authority can insist. On the other question, perhaps I can write to the noble Lord.

I was going to say that I very much hope that the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, will pursue that amendment. It is terribly important that there is a safety valve. Not all local authorities behave as perfectly as they might all the time. When a school is under the cosh for half a decade at a time merely because the chairman of the local authority education committee does not like it—it is perfectly possible; who will be imposed on the London Oratory, for instance?—there must be a reasonable escape. It is certainly possible as the regulations are provided for, but it is not in the draft regulations that there should be any such power for someone to adjudicate. There may be other ways out of it, but I very much hope that we pursue it. And I very much hope that we will get some support from the Liberal Democrat Benches. We would very much like to see this. If we do not get a satisfactory reply on it, I hope that we will pursue it to a Division, if we have to.

I was disappointed by the Minister’s illustration of how the school improvement partner will be using all these figures to point out where a school could improve itself. The best schools were using these figures 10 years ago. The systems ought to be there so that it is obvious to a school that, “We have a problem with our Afro-Caribbean children between the ages of 11 and 14”, or whatever it may be. I know of at least three commercially—or semi-commercially—available systems out there that will provide this information as a matter of course. Yes, the Government can help by providing some base data to feed into these things so that there is an accurate comparison between developments in the world outside. But a school ought to have a system that tells it not only that it has a problem in this area but also how to do better with its 11 to 14 year-old Afro-Caribbean kids. The chances of it being a random SIP appointed by a local education authority are pretty small. At that stage you want to be going out to a much wider audience.

I have always hoped that the Government would create a system that worked for spreading expertise and making it available to schools, but they never have. Beacon status has not worked and its successor has not worked particularly well. A good school will know what is wrong and where to go to put it right. I would support anything a Government did to do that, but the idea that this will be the SIP, or that the SIP should perform the function that the Minister described, I find extremely depressing.

I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, finds the examples depressing. It will be the SIP’s role to call attention to areas where, through self-evaluation, the school realises that it is underperforming in certain respects. We were saying that even good schools can underperform in some respects. The school would talk with the SIP about where it feels it could do better. On the example of the Afro-Caribbean children, it is not for the SIP to say, “I have the answers to this problem”; it is for SIPs to use their experience as head teachers to say, “I know someone or an organisation that might be able to help”. It is brokerage and a directional assistance; it is not SIPs imposing what little knowledge, or the extensive knowledge, they have in a particular area. It is guiding the school to resources and areas that can help tackle the under-performance problems they might be facing with certain pupils or areas of school management.

The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, raised the issue of the cross-border movement of SIPs. I hope he will take encouragement from the fact that we strongly encourage cross-border movement, which is already happening extensively in the SIP programme. Some authorities—for instance, South Gloucestershire—have all their SIPs from outside their own authority. Requiring cross-border movement is just the sort of thing that we might use regulations for.

Finally, the evaluation of the trial to which the noble Lord referred is published. I will ensure that a copy is placed in the Library.

I am grateful and shall remain optimistic. I really hope that this works.

The Minister has already responded to the questions but I should like quickly to highlight a concern. The debate has been interesting and I am sorry that I could not be present for all of it. It reminded me of my concerns about children’s homes. I hope that the Committee will not mind me briefly raising the subject. The Minister kindly wrote to me recently about the training of staff in children’s homes, but the situation is far worse than I thought. The Government’s target was for 80 per cent of staff in children’s homes to have an NVQ level 3 in childcare by January last year, but—if I have understood the Minister’s letter correctly—in March last year, only 23 per cent had such a qualification.

I have seen consultancy make an invaluable contribution to improving the quality of outcomes for children in children’s homes. Listening to this debate about mentoring for head teachers and about experienced head teachers supporting other teachers, I wondered whether I might plant in the Minister’s mind the thought that, as we look at the Green Paper on looked-after children, we might consider whether there could be a similar model for children’s homes. I apologise for distracting from the main thread of the debate.

I thank the Minister for her full response to the questions posed, and thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. My noble friend Lord Lucas and I are a little sceptical about local authorities working in partnership. I was pleased to hear what the Minister said about South Gloucestershire, but historically local authorities have tended to work in isolation, jealously guarding their own patch. Having been a district councillor, I know how that plays out. It is a bit like government departments with all those thick walls and glass ceilings.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the wish of the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, to have more flexibility if there is incompatibility between the character or personality of the SIP and the school. We need to avoid a standard ration. We should focus on coasting schools when considering the role of the SIP. I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland of Houndwood, agrees with us that the appointment of the SIP should be for the governing body.

In relation to that, I think that I have come up with rather a good idea that I shall air now and may propose in an amendment on Report. The Minister spoke about the need for those making the appointment to be able to set themselves apart to play an external role to challenge and support, and I accept that. However, the point that the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, made is tremendously important. We need to avoid conflict, and the head of the school and its governing body must be able to work well with that critical friend. So, what if the local authority were to make the appointment but the governing body would interview for that role? That could be a way round the problem. The governing body would have a role in the appointment of the SIP, and can assess the chemistry to ensure that there is a strong chance that that relationship can work well.

moved Amendment No. 44:

Perhaps I may assist the noble Baroness. If she goes on with her reading of Clause 6, she will see that new subsection (3) states that,

“a local education authority must, in particular, have regard to the expediency of co-operating with any voluntary societies or bodies whose objects include the provision of facilities or the organisation of activities of a similar character”.

So, I am glad to say, we are entirely consistent.

As I say, to some extent we were teasing. As I have read out, the Bill suggests that the local education authority should provide these things directly, although also perhaps commissioning them, but we thought we would help them a little along the way. Therefore, our amendments enable them to go a little further in that direction.

Amendment No. 49, which would add to the end of new subsection (4)(b),

“including facilities for team games”,

and so on, is a serious amendment, and my noble friend Lady Williams will speak to it, but I would like to speak briefly to Amendment No. 54. It would remove the necessity for the Secretary of State to issue guidance to local authorities in terms of fulfilling their functions. In many senses it is an attempt once again to try to get away from the micromanagement that we see so constantly by this Government. There is no need for them to issue detailed guidance on all these sorts of issues. Amendment No. 54 is an attempt to relieve the Government of a few of the pressures that fall on them, because there are many more important things they should be doing. I beg to move.

Amendment No. 49 stands in my name and that of my noble friends. It concerns team games. I will make my points quickly as I realise we are making heavy weather of the Bill—in my view, quite rightly.

There is considerable concern, reflected in many of the articles in both health and professional educational magazines, about the problem we have with boys in the upper end of primary schools and the earlier end of secondary schools, in their assessment of themselves and their self-confidence. I was in secondary education some time ago, but I remember the exact mirror image with girls. There was an endless discussion of girls’ underperformance, the reasons for it and the lack of confidence they had in themselves as scientists and mathematicians. It is extraordinary that in one lifetime of politics I should have seen this completely reversed and exactly the opposite theme now picked up.

Nevertheless, for many boys, and not least the boys to whom the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, referred in an earlier discussion—those from the Caribbean community—great importance is attached to achievement in sport. It is a way in which young men, and to some extent girls too, measure their achievement and ability and begin to gain self-confidence.

I have been extremely troubled by the effects of the sale of playing fields, which I admit happened largely under a previous Conservative Government. It meant that many schools simply dropped team sports from their curriculum, and in some cases had to bus youngsters long distances to play just for a couple of hours on some remote football field or cricket pitch. In other words, the ability of schools to embrace team games within the school curriculum has been steadily lost.

It is not surprising that youngsters who do not have the opportunity to let out some of their natural exuberance—very marked between the ages of about nine and 14—in what one might call constructive and enjoyable activities make themselves a problem in estates, which often have large signs up saying “No ball games”. It is very sad that we have so steadily closed down on the outlets that youngsters in this age group, both boys and girls, have. To be quite blunt, it has all been made much worse by the profound and understandable concern about paedophilia, which means that it is very difficult now to get anybody willing to lead a Scout troop or Cub pack, or even a Girl Guide company or Brownie pack. More and more youngsters do not have any opportunity to test their physical skills and sense of adventure or, for that matter, to thoroughly enjoy school because they are achieving something somewhere. It is very serious, and I do not think that I sound like somebody harking back to the past in saying so. I have seen so many youngsters on estates in new towns and elsewhere for whom there simply is no outlet and they end up, yet again, watching sports on television but not playing sports themselves.

There is another aspect, which is that team sports are very different from what is slightly pickily described as “positive leisure-time activities”, which often can mean forms of yoga and so on. Those are enjoyable in their own way, but do not build up a sense of belonging together—of commonality and common purpose—which a well refereed team game is able to do and, incidentally, with it building up friendships that may last a lifetime. It is just not the same to play on your computer Game Boy on your own in your bedroom, which is what many youngsters do for their leisure-time activities.

I will not hold up the Committee for long, but it is extremely important that we get team games back into the curriculum. At least a couple of hours a week should be spent on such team games as part of the school day which do not depend on parents busing or driving children back, which often they will not do as they may not be home or they may be too tired to pick them up. We have to bring team games back to make for a more rounded curriculum. I therefore urge the Minister to look very closely at this—the Government's heart is in this—and consider whether we could not strengthen the wording, to encourage authorities and schools to make sure that team games are part of the range of choices children have available for a properly rounded and properly demanding form of education.

It may assist the Committee if I come in immediately after the noble Baroness to say that we agree with everything she has said, and that it is encompassed in the current clause.

The sale of playing fields now requires explicit ministerial consent in every case. I know because I am the Minister whose desk these issues cross. The sale of playing fields has almost ceased and only a tiny number are sold each year. They are sold only if our professional advisers are satisfied that alternative arrangements for playing fields are sufficient. In almost all cases, the proceeds of the sale go into investing in sports facilities in the school, typically new sports halls or facilities of that kind.

We have significantly boosted the role of sport and team sport, reversing the lamentable trend highlighted by the noble Baroness that has taken place in the previous 20 years. We have invested £978 million in our PE, School Sport and Club Links strategy with the target of ensuring that, within and beyond the curriculum, 75 per cent of pupils by this year and 85 per cent of pupils by next year engage in at least two hours of high-quality PE and school sport each week. We have made significant progress in that respect. The last independent survey on school sport, which covered the last academic year, showed that overall 69 per cent of pupils in partnership schools participate in at least two hours of high quality PE and sport, which is up 11 per cent in one year. There have been improvements.

In the amendment, the noble Baroness specifically highlights football and cricket. We agree that they are of great importance, and Clause 6 encompasses them. Our concern with the amendment is that it might unhelpfully narrow a local authority’s view of what facilities it should provide if we specifically highlighted those. We consulted more than 11,000 young people in the process of drawing up our Youth Matters Green Paper, which found that they wanted more sports facilities in their area. The provision they sought included requests for activities such as swimming, hockey and netball—the last two of course are also team games. Twelve per cent wanted more youth clubs, 11 per cent wanted,

“the opportunity to try extreme sports”,

such as waterskiing or canoeing, and 9 per cent wanted to see improved provision for dance and youth theatre.

All those are encompassed within Clause 6. We want a significant increase in opportunities for team games, including cricket and football. Measures are in place to ensure that. Our concern about the precise wording of the amendment is that to include it in the Bill might highlight some areas at the expense of others within the duty of local authorities. We think that they should follow local consultation and ensure a balanced extra provision of suitable youth facilities in their area.

First, I understand that swimming is to be dropped from the curriculum—that is, apparently, the advice that has been given—which means that one fundamental, significant sport may drop out of the provision. Secondly, in some cases about which I happen to know, the provision of sporting facilities has included the provision of large leisure centres that charge substantial sums to people, which is not exactly an alternative. I am not in any way criticising the Government—I know that they are doing their best to reverse the trend—but some aspects give me concern.

I assure the noble Baroness that we are paying very close attention to swimming. The fact that advice has been offered does not mean that it will be accepted.

I very much agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, said. I trumpet the duty at the bottom of page 4. We need a reference of some kind to team games because they require so much space. If local authorities, especially city local authorities, are not told to provide space, they will stick houses on the space or do something else with it. They need to know that they must provide the space and that providing a climbing wall is not a substitute for a football pitch. What, in line 13 of page 4, does “provided for their area” mean? Clearly that is different from “provided in their area”, but does “provided for” mean that it has to be specifically allocated to them or just available to them? That is an odd wording and I do not understand exactly its intention.

It means things such as outdoor adventure centres, which may not be in the area but are provided for the area. I assume that that is what is meant. It is quite common, especially for city authorities, to maintain facilities or engage with the voluntary sector in respect of facilities outside their area. I will happily confirm that.

Will the Minister respond to my other amendments?

The noble Baroness said that she was teasing me. I thought that she had accepted that I had responded to the first amendment. We need to read new subsection (2) with new subsection (3), which begins:

“When making arrangements for the provision of facilities or the organisation of activities in the exercise of their powers under subsection (2), a local education authority must”—

I repeat, must—

“in particular, have regard to the expediency of co-operating with any voluntary societies or bodies”.

Although I understand that the noble Baroness is trying to tease me, that is my response.

We think that local authorities will find guidance in these areas useful, not least because it can highlight best practice, which they usually find useful when the department makes it available. I would not want local authorities to be deprived of the benefit of any wisdom that we might be able to bring to bear in these matters.

Some local authorities might like to be deprived of that guidance but, nevertheless, I thank the Minister for his reply. He is quite right: we were teasing him through the first two amendments. The substantive point was the one raised by my noble friend Lady Williams about team sports, about which we feel strongly. I hope that we may find some way and a form of wording to write in the Bill the importance that we attach to them. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment No. 45 not moved.]

I beg to move that the House be now resumed. In moving this Motion, I suggest that Committee begin again not before 8.34 pm.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

House resumed.

rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 12 June be approved [31st Report from the Joint Committee].

The noble Lord said: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Crawley, I beg to move that the draft order be approved. The order under Section 223(3) of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 will permit the three general lighthouse authorities (GLAs) to operate the automatic identification system (AIS) as a marine aid to navigation. The order empowers the GLAs to make proposals to the Secretary of State for Transport to operate AIS installations and the Secretary of State to sanction systems with costs met from the general lighthouse fund.

The general lighthouse authorities provide marine aids to navigation services around the British Isles. They are Trinity House for England, Wales and the Channel Islands, the Northern Lighthouse Board for Scotland and the Isle of Man, and the Commissioners of Irish Lights for Northern Ireland. The Commissioners of Irish Lights is in fact an all-Ireland body based in Dublin. This order will apply to its operations in the north and similar powers are available to it in Ireland under Ireland’s Merchant Shipping Act 1894 as amended.

The department and the GLAs are promoting the international development of marine e-navigation systems. The UK has secured a commitment from the International Maritime Organisation to develop a work programme to make that a reality at the global level. It requires a move away from the heavy reliance on traditional aids to navigation to an integrated electronic system comprising satellite navigation systems supported by a separate ground-based radio navigation system. We envisage that this will comprise the US GPS system, plus the European Galileo System with enhancements such as AIS, and the enhanced Loran C long-range radio system currently under trial and development.

All commercial vessels in excess of 300 tonnes undertaking an international voyage are required to transmit an AIS signal. That shows the ship’s name, next port of call, course and cargo details. The system can be interpreted by other vessels and from the land in either graphic or alphanumeric displays. It offers security data and allows ports to assess well in advance of normal reporting times when vessels are likely to arrive.

The purpose of the order is to support the use of AIS as an aid to navigation. A lighthouse, light vessel or buoy can transmit its location and other details using AIS and they will appear on the ship’s display. The GLAs have been experimenting with AIS systems and have concluded that AIS will allow them to reduce the size and range of a number of physical aids to navigation if they can enhance the aids with AIS. For example, light vessels might be replaced with a cheaper buoy plus an AIS signal. Lighthouses might still maintain a light but with a reduced range, again enhanced by an AIS signal.

Ultimately some of the traditional aids might be replaced altogether by an AIS signal. The aid to navigation would not have a physical presence, but the ship’s AIS display would show the aid on its AIS display, with the AIS signal being transmitted from the land. Those developments may take many years to achieve but it gives an indication of the system’s capabilities if it is developed to the full.

The department and the GLAs envisage that the system will ultimately make a major contribution to safety while reducing expenditure on providing the essential aids to navigation service. Traditional costs estimated at £3 million will be met from the general lighthouse fund in the first instance. Savings will come from reducing the scope of traditional aids—although we do not envisage that they will disappear completely. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 12 June be approved [31st Report from the Joint Committee].—(Lord Davies of Oldham.)

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clear and lucid explanation of the order. I am pleased to say that we are happy to lend our support, recognising the importance of the legislation in improving the safety of international shipping, especially in and around UK waters. I congratulate the Government on being at the forefront of introducing and promoting this new technology. Anything that helps to lessen the possibility of another major incident at sea should be welcomed. Therefore, I will not detain your Lordships’ House too long on the order; certainly no more than is strictly necessary. However, I shall take the opportunity to ask a number of short questions.

First, where will the scheme operate? Is the idea that it will cover all the waters around the United Kingdom, or will it cover simply those areas that experience the greatest density of shipping, such as the Dover Straits? This is a very important point, which needs clarifying. The Minister may recall that, a couple of months ago, we all participated in a Starred Question on improving the safety of shipping around the Minch Strait. If I recall correctly, calls were made then that such an environmentally sensitive area should be covered by just this sort of technology. Given that we have this technology in place, it is strange to restrict it to use in particularly difficult areas.

Secondly, can the Minister give us an idea of the time scale for the introduction of the scheme and, linking this to my previous question, say whether it will be rolled out nationally or just gradually in one or two pilot areas? Finally, I notice in the Explanatory Notes that the shipboard version of this technology is fitted to all vessels over 300 tonnes that have signed up to SOLAS—the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea. Therefore, presumably we could still have vessels significantly over 300 tonnes in UK waters without this technology simply because they have not signed up to SOLAS. Indeed, can the Minister tell us what proportion of shipping passing through UK waters has this system already in place? What steps will the Government take to close this anomaly and to ensure that all vessels greater than 300 tonnes have the onboard version of the technology, regardless of whether they have signed up to the necessary convention?

I hope the Minister will be able to help me with my short questions. Other than that, we on these Benches support the order.

My Lords, I concur entirely with what the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, has just said. I believe the order is worth while. I have one further question for the Minister beyond those asked by the noble Lord. It concerns vessels of less than 300 tonnes. When is it proposed to withdraw navigational aids? Is cognisance being taken of the fact that many smaller vessels will still depend on less sophisticated technology?

My Lords, I declare an interest as a commissioner for the Irish lighthouse service, which the Minister has mentioned. I support the order and I can assure your Lordships that I have seen the AIS operating live both from the Irish Lights tender and in trial from a desktop in Dublin. It is a fantastic and very simple system. One of the great things about it is that most ships around our coast are less than 300 tonnes—yachts, in other words, of one size or another—and certainly my yacht, and the yachts of most yachtsmen now travelling the seas, will carry a small version of the AIS, which does not transmit but can receive. That means that if you are in a shipping lane—crossing the English Channel, for example—you can see other ships on your AIS screen as targets. They will have their MMSI number, which is in effect their telephone number, and you can talk to them if you are worried about getting in their way or about what they are doing. You can do similar things from a ship’s bridge with land-based navigation aids or with buoys. There is an experimental buoy out now in Larne harbour. One of the important things to ferries travelling in Larne harbour is wave height—believe it or not, there are restrictions on wave heights. The buoy will be able to tell skippers what the wave heights are on the approach to the harbour, and so on. It is a fantastic system, it is not very expensive, and it is being used now all around our coast. In Ireland, we are moving around the coast and starting to make it one of our navigation aids. It really is fantastic.

My Lords, I also support the order, and declare a non-pecuniary interest as a Younger Brother of Trinity House. The order designates AIS as a beacon under the terms of the Merchant Shipping Act. As the Minister has explained, this will allow the general lighthouse authorities to fit beacons to aids to navigation that will transmit data on the sea state—we have just from the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, about that—as well as tidal data and the position of the aid, which will benefit ships’ safety. This was foreseen when the AIS first came into operation at the beginning of last year, primarily as a means of communicating a ship’s name, position and next port to shore stations and indeed to other ships.

The general lighthouse authorities—Trinity House, the Northern Lighthouse Board and the Commissioners for Irish Lights—have worked diligently over the past 13 years to introduce new nav-aid technology, which has in effect reduced the cost to the shipping industry, which pays through light dues, by some 40 per cent. The order will allow this trend to continue. We are moving towards an integrated bridge system on ships that will combine radar, electronic charts and the AIS, but, for the time being, as the Minister has said, we still need traditional aids to navigation. Certainly some of the newer technology relies on the GPS, which is subject to the whims of the US military. I welcome the order, and I wish it a fair wind.

My Lords, the order is of particular interest to me as a former serving lighthouse keeper. It is 200 years ago this summer since Parliament approved the building of the Bell Rock lighthouse, the oldest wave-washed lighthouse in existence that still operates. Thus tonight, that lighthouse will give a characteristic white flash every five seconds, and no doubt will do so for many nights into the future. That may come as a surprise to many noble Lords, as satellite navigation is now the primary system used by navigators, but, as we have just heard, it is not 100 per cent reliable, and the relatively expensive back-up of traditional aids such as lighthouses continues to be necessary as we must have two completely independent systems of navigational aids.

Some 200 years on from the decision about the iconic Bell Rock, we can take another big step tonight in ensuring safe navigation by approving this statutory instrument, which will allow the general lighthouse authorities to fit the necessary equipment to use the AIS as a beacon. Until now, it could be used only for trials, and the order needs to be carried so that the GLAs can go ahead and use the AIS as a beacon. As we have also heard, there will be no increase in light dues paid by shipping using our ports as a consequence of the approval of the order tonight. If we do not approve the order, the three GLAs will not be able to develop the system, which will lead inevitably in the future—perhaps some years ahead—to increases in shipping dues.

The beauty of the AIS is its ability to provide real-time data. The plan of the Northern Lighthouse Board is just one example and, complementary to what the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, said about the buoy at Larne harbour, the Northern Lighthouse Board wants to deploy an AIS buoy at Milleur Point at the entrance to Loch Ryan. That buoy would transmit, via Corsewall lighthouse, the actual sea state and wind speed at the sometimes difficult entrance to Loch Ryan. That will significantly enhance the safety of the high-speed passenger craft and other ferries on that busy sea route between Scotland and Ireland.

There are many other ways in which the AIS will contribute, although noble Lords will be relieved to know that I shall not list them. One of them, which might seem to be science fiction to an old lighthouse keeper, is the prospect of virtual aids to navigation. Broadcast from an AIS station, a symbol appearing on a ship’s display can indicate a hazard, even though there is no buoy or beacon on that hazard. If that can be failsafe, it is bound to lead to a considerable reduction in future costs. I hope the House will agree to this work commencing and to further research being done. The motto of the Northern Lighthouse Board and the Commissioners of Irish Lights is, In salutem omnium. For any non-Latin scholars among us, that means, “For the safety of all”. That safety can be only enhanced by the approval of the order this evening.