Report received.
Schedule 1 [National Policing Improvement Agency]:
My Lords, I must advise the House that if Amendment No. 1 is agreed to I shall not be able to call Amendment No. 2 by reason of pre-emption.
moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 51, line 29, leave out paragraphs (b) and (c) and insert-
“(b) the Association of Police Authorities, (c) the Association of Chief Police Officers, and”
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of both the government amendment and the amendment on the Marshalled List in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, is to reinforce the tripartite framework which governs policing. We attach considerable importance to the tripartite framework and have sought to reinforce it through the recent creation of the National Policing Board, a development which has been welcomed both by the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Association of Police Authorities. The board underpins the position of the Home Secretary, the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Association of Police Authorities, as well as the collective leadership of the police service.
The noble Baroness tabled an amendment in Committee which would have named the Association of Chief Police Officers in the Bill in relation to a duty to consult in respect of the National Policing Improvement Agency. In responding, I indicated that we were sympathetic in principle but that a number of questions needed to be resolved in relation to that amendment. We undertook to explore the options of putting both the ACPO and the APA on a statutory footing, together with relevant stakeholders. ACPO has put to us that the Police Act 1996 does not properly recognise the position of the association within the tripartite framework. There are many references to the Secretary of State but where the legislation refers to ACPO officers as the professional leaders of the service it does so only indirectly. At present, the 1996 Act and other legislation place a number of duties on the Home Secretary to consult persons whom he considers to represent the interests of chief officers of police and persons whom he considers to represent the interests of police authorities.
The amendments will make it plain that such consultation should be with the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Association of Police Authorities. As such, they will accord appropriate recognition to the two associations and their place in the tripartite framework. While both the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Association of Police Authorities are long-established organisations, we need to guard against the possibility that they might at some stage consider changing their title. To accommodate such a possibility, Amendment No. 55 includes an order-making power which will enable the Government to change the statutory references to either association to reflect any new nomenclature.
For the record, I emphasise that on any matters which affect the terms and conditions of employment of chief officers, we will continue to consult the Chief Police Officers’ Staff Association rather than the Association of Chief Police Officers, which represents chief officers on such matters.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her part in drawing our attention to this issue. I beg to move.
My Lords, my Amendment No. 2 is grouped with Amendment No. 1. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, for having a meeting with me on 21 September, at which it was possible to make significant progress on a number of matters. There are two issues of principle on which our views continue to diverge, and we will debate those later today and tomorrow. However, on this issue we were at one.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, for not only picking up my point about consultation with ACPO but very properly approaching the Association of Police Authorities to ensure that they also are consultees named in the Bill. I support the Government’s amendment, particularly their order-making power in Amendment No. 55. The Minister will know that I am not normally persuaded by order-making powers, but this one is highly sensible to adapt to future circumstances.
I shall not be moving my Amendment No. 2 when it is called by the Lord Speaker. I realise that we are under a significant amount of pressure regarding time; I have therefore agreed that I will not move Amendments Nos. 4, 10 and 50. Amendment No. 10 is an odd one out: I tabled it so that the House may hear first in that group of amendments from the Minister. I am aware that on Report, if the Government are forced to speak last when they hold the major hand of cards, it is not possible for the House to cross-examine the Minister’s position. This will enable the Minister to open and then respond to any points.
On Amendment No. 4, I understand that the Government are, in effect, on my side with regard to keeping the size of the board of the agency to 10 or 12, and do not wish to labour the point. On Amendment No. 50, which would delete Schedule 2, I feel that I and other noble Lords will have ample opportunity to make any points they wish on other amendments. I support the Government’s amendment.
My Lords, what a good start. I congratulate the Government on some very good sense. Let us hope we can continue in this way for the rest of the afternoon.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 2 not moved.]
moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 51, line 38, leave out paragraphs (b) and (c) and insert-
“(b) the Association of Chief Police Officers, and (c) the Association of Police Authorities.”
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 4 not moved.]
moved Amendments Nos. 5 to 8:
Page 52, line 28, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) and insert-
“(a) the Association of Police Authorities, and (b) the Association of Chief Police Officers.”
Page 52, line 37, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) and insert-
“(a) at least one member nominated by the Association of Police Authorities, (b) at least one member nominated by the Association of Chief Police Officers, and”
Page 64, line 13, at end insert-
““the Association of Chief Police Officers” means the Association of Chief Police Officers of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.”
Page 65, line 29, leave out paragraphs (b) and (c) and insert-
“(b) the Association of Police Authorities, and (c) the Association of Chief Police Officers.”
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Schedule 2 [Amendments to the Police Act 1996]:
moved Amendment No. 9:
Page 76, line 30, leave out paragraphs 1 and 2.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment removes from the Bill the provision which would place basic command units on a statutory footing. In explaining why we are withdrawing this provision, it is perhaps worth reminding the House why we included it in the first instance. There is widespread agreement that agencies involved in tackling crime and disorder can work best together if their boundaries are aligned. This is particularly true in the case of basic command units and local authorities, which are the two key pillars of crime and disorder reduction partnerships and strategies. Most, if not all, chief constables already recognise this, but it is open to any new chief constable to alter BCU boundaries.
Paragraphs 1 and 2 of Schedule 2, therefore, simply sought to enshrine in statute the requirement for BCU and local authority boundaries to be aligned and coterminous, and to place a duty on chief constables to consult key partners before altering BCU boundaries. It is undoubtedly the case that other motives have been read into this provision. In Committee, the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, talked of preparing BCUs for “future developments”, including direct funding from central government. The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, expressed similar concerns, as has the Association of Chief Police Officers and the APA, as they are entitled to do.
I repeat that, in bringing forward this provision, we are concerned solely with ensuring that BCUs are coterminous with local authority boundaries to aid partnership working on community safety issues. Happily, the police service shares that objective. A number of chief constables have moved during the past year or so to review their BCU boundaries. I am now aware of only six BCUs out of some 225 which are not coterminous with local authorities, and in four of these cases the discrepancy is very minor.
As the situation on the ground now largely reflects the outcome we were seeking, the Government are ready to withdraw this provision from the Bill. My ministerial colleague, the Minister for Policing, Security and Community Safety, has, however, written to the Association of Chief Police Officers to reinforce our expectation that the principle of coterminosity will be observed, save where there are compelling reasons for departing from this general rule.
We have a happy situation here where a policy objective is shared; there is commitment to it; and, in large measure, it is in place without the more rigorous hand of statute imposing its print on the way in which policing operates. That happy outcome enables me to move the amendment. I beg to move.
My Lords, in Committee, we were accused of being paranoid on these issues, so I am absolutely delighted that the Government have moved to consider our concerns. I am very grateful to them for doing that. This is one of the smaller issues which we wanted to bring forward and on which we wished to see some movement. We will raise rather larger issues later, which we also hope that they will consider.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 10 not moved.]
My Lords, I must inform the House that if Amendment No. 11 is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendments Nos. 12 to 17 by reason of pre-emption.
moved Amendment No. 11:
Page 78, line 25, leave out paragraphs 3 and 4 and insert-
“ In section 4 (membership of police authorities outside Greater London), in subsection (4), for “Schedules 2 and 3” there is substituted “Schedule 2”.
For Schedule 2 there is substituted-
SCHEDULE 2 Section 4 POLICE AUTHORITIES ESTABLISHED UNDER SECTION 3 Membership of police authorities 1 (1) The Secretary of State shall by regulations make provision in relation to the membership of police authorities established under section 3.
(2) Regulations under this paragraph shall provide for a police authority to consist of-
(a) persons who are members of a relevant council, and (b) other persons, including at least one lay justice. (3) Those regulations shall-
(a) specify the number of members falling within paragraph (a) and paragraph (b) of sub-paragraph (2), and (b) secure that the majority of members of a police authority are persons falling within paragraph (a) of that sub-paragraph. (4) Those regulations may make further provision as to qualification for membership, and may provide for a specified number of the members of a police authority to be persons of a specified description.
(5) Those regulations may include provision as to-
(a) how a member is to be appointed; (b) disqualification for membership; (c) the tenure of office of a member (including the circumstances in which a member ceases to hold office or may be removed or suspended from office); (d) re-appointment as a member; (e) the validity of acts and proceedings of a person appointed as a member in the event of his disqualification or lack of qualification; (f) the validity of proceedings of a police authority in the event of a vacancy in membership or of a defect in the appointment of a member or in the composition of the authority; (g) the payment of remuneration and allowances to a member and the reimbursement of expenses. Appointment of councillor members 2 Regulations under paragraph 1 shall provide that-
(a) in the case of a police authority in relation to which there is only one relevant council, the members falling within paragraph 1(2)(a) are to be appointed by that council; (b) in any other case, those members are to be appointed by a joint committee consisting of persons appointed by the relevant councils from among their own members. Appointment of other members 3 (1) Regulations under paragraph 1 shall provide that the members falling within paragraph 1(2)(b) are to be appointed-
(a) by the existing members of the authority, (b) from among persons on a short-list prepared by a selection panel. (2) Those regulations may make provision as to qualification for membership of a selection panel, and may provide for a specified number of the members of a panel to be persons of a specified description.
(3) Those regulations may include provision as to-
(a) the number of members of a selection panel; (b) how and by whom a member of a panel is to be appointed; (c) disqualification for membership; (d) the tenure of office of a member of a panel (including the circumstances in which a member ceases to hold office or may be removed or suspended from office); (e) re-appointment as a member of a panel; (f) the conduct of proceedings of a panel, including any procedures that a panel is to follow; (g) the validity of acts and proceedings of a person appointed as a member of a panel in the event of his disqualification or lack of qualification; (h) the validity of proceedings of a panel in the event of a vacancy in membership or of a defect in the appointment of a member or in the composition of the panel; (i) the payment of remuneration and allowances to a member of a panel and the reimbursement of expenses. Chairman and vice chairmen 4 (1) The Secretary of State shall by regulations provide that-
(a) a police authority is to appoint a chairman from among its members at each annual meeting; and (b) at an annual meeting a police authority may appoint one or more vice-chairmen from among its members. (2) Regulations under this paragraph may make further provision about how a chairman or vice-chairman is to be appointed, and provision as to-
(a) qualification and disqualification for appointment; (b) the tenure of office of a chairman or vice-chairman (including the circumstances in which a chairman or vice-chairman ceases to hold office or may be removed or suspended from office); (c) eligibility for re-appointment; (d) the validity of acts and proceedings of a person appointed as chairman or vice-chairman in the event of his disqualification or lack of qualification; (e) the validity of proceedings of a police authority in the event of a vacancy in the office of chairman or vice-chairman or of a defect in the appointment of a chairman or vice-chairman; (f) the payment of remuneration and allowances to a chairman or vice-chairman and the reimbursement of expenses. Standards committees 5 The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision as to the payment of remuneration and allowances to, and the reimbursement of expenses of, members of the standards committee of a police authority established under section 3.
Consultation 6 Before making regulations under this Schedule the Secretary of State shall consult-
(a) the Association of Police Authorities, (b) persons whom he considers to represent the interests of county and district councils in England and county and county borough councils in Wales, (c) in the case of regulations that are not to apply to all police authorities established under section 3- (i) any police authority to which the regulations are to apply, and (ii) any relevant council in relation to such an authority, and (d) such other persons as he thinks fit. Supplementary 7 (1) Regulations under this Schedule may make different provision for different police authorities.
(2) Regulations under this Schedule may make transitional, consequential, incidental and supplemental provision or savings.
(3) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this Schedule shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
Interpretation 8 (1) For the purposes of this Schedule a council is a “relevant council” in relation to a police authority in England if it is the council for-
(a) a county, or (b) a district comprised in an area for which there is no county council, which constitutes, or is wholly within, the authority's police area. (2) For the purposes of this Schedule a council is a “relevant council” in relation to a police authority in Wales if it is the council for a county or county borough which constitutes, or is wholly within, the authority's police area.
9 In this Schedule “lay justice” has the meaning given by section 9 of the Courts Act 2003.””
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I hope that I can continue in the happy frame in which we have started. I assure the House that we listened very carefully to debates in Committee on the provisions of the Bill that relate to membership of police authorities, and to the discussions that we have had in the mean time, before Report. I appreciate the concerns that have been so elegantly articulated about the need to retain the core principles governing the composition of the police authorities in primary legislation. The government amendments in this group will restore much of the detail of these provisions to the Police Act 1996.
The Bill currently leaves the procedure for appointing the members of the police authority entirely to regulations and, in particular, does not specify who is responsible for appointing the councillor and independent members. Having heard the arguments in this House and those put to us by the Association of Police Authorities, in these amendments we seek to strike a better balance between primary and secondary legislation. It became clear in our debates that there was no difference between us on this; it was simply a matter of how we were going to express our comity in relation to this area.
The amendments put into primary legislation a provision to stipulate that councillor members should be appointed by the councils from which they are drawn and that independent members should be appointed by the existing membership of the police authority from among the shortlist of candidates recommended as suitable for appointment by a selection panel.
I also understand the concerns that several noble Lords have raised about the appointment of the chair and vice-chairs to the police authority. Accordingly, the amendments will now stipulate in the Police Act who should make these appointments. The chair and vice-chair would, as now, be appointed by the authority from among its members. Amendment No. 14, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, is in similar vein. Other provisions relating to these appointments, including eligibility for appointment and the duration of such appointments, remuneration and allowances, should rightly be left to regulations.
I have also listened closely to the heartfelt views expressed by many noble Lords on retaining the separate category of magistrate members on police authorities. I feel some confidence that that will give particular pleasure to the noble Baroness opposite. As I said in Committee, I recognise the valuable skills and knowledge that magistrates bring to authorities. We certainly did not want to lose that entirely, so Amendment No. 11 provides that at least one of the independent members of the police authority should be a magistrate. I hope that Members on the Benches opposite will accept that as a sensible compromise.
Finally, the government amendments restore the existing Section 4 of the Police Act, which provides for police authorities to have a standard membership of 17. I recognise that the Bill could, hypothetically, empower some future Home Secretary to create police authorities with a membership of as few as three. That was never our intention. We will retain, as now, a power to increase the size of individual police authorities by regulations.
I trust that the amendments I have tabled will give the House the reassurance that many noble Lords have asked for. I am sorry that we have not been able to make all the amendments that noble Lords have sought, but I hope that the major amendments about which people were most anxious have all been satisfied, and this wonderful atmosphere that we are developing in debating this Bill can continue for a while longer. I beg to move.
My Lords, we look forward later on today to the Minister conceding on other matters and accepting our principles with regard to issues on tripartite balance. The comity could continue—let us see.
I shall speak to my Amendments Nos. 12, 14, 15, 16 and 17 and the government amendments. As the Minister said, we return to the concerns that we expressed in Committee regarding the Government’s intentions in shaping the membership of police authorities. The Minister says that the new amendments achieve a better balance between what goes into primary and secondary legislation. We are prepared to accept the government amendments, although not on the basis that we think that they are 100 per cent correct, because we would have preferred to retain the matters in primary legislation.
We noted the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which states at paragraph 20 that it considered it inappropriate for the Bill to leave so much to subordinate legislation. The committee drew attention to the fact that a police authority has a key role to play in the delicate constitutional balance between the Secretary of State, the police authority and the chief constable. The composition of the authority is therefore more significant than that of many other statutory bodies.
However, we accept that the Government have tabled amendments which meet most of our concerns. As the noble Baroness anticipated, I am grateful to her that the position of lay magistrates on the authority will be protected and that at least one member should be a lay justice. I recognise the ability and expertise that is brought to police authorities by lay magistrates. I hope that in areas where it is appropriate more than one will be appointed. The police authority should make that decision. In particular, it is important that chairs and vice-chairs should not be appointed by the Secretary of State, or that he should influence the matter. I welcome that change.
I certainly welcome the progress that has been made. I shall listen with interest to what the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, says. His proposals have the full support of the Association of Police Authorities. I record my thanks to that association for coming to the House during the Recess to brief me further on progress that might be made on the Bill. I support the government amendments and will not press mine.
My Lords, I, too, support Amendment No. 10, which puts magistrates back in a separate category of member, and Amendments Nos. 14 and 15, which concern electing chairs and vice-chairs—which has been dealt with by the Government’s amendment—although, frankly, I prefer the Conservative amendment which deletes all regulation-making powers.
I wish to speak briefly to Amendments Nos. 11, 13, 19 and 20 in this large grouping. The Government have conceded some of the provisions that we requested, such as 17 members for most police authorities, but political balance is the key to the way in which police authorities operate. It has kept them free from party political control for many years, not to mention free from control by extremist groups, single issue groups and so forth. This means that the police, and particularly the chief officer, are not controlled in a partisan way, whether political or otherwise, and leaves him or her free to use best professional judgment. An approach that did not guarantee political balance would mean that police authorities were not properly representative of the communities they serve. The measure must be written into primary legislation as an underlying principle of the councillor membership of police authorities or this balanced approach risks being lost.
Amendment No. 20 addresses the deputy chairs of the NPIA. The Bill proposes that in addition to nominating the chair—which I understand the NPIA somewhat reluctantly accepts—the Mayor of London can also nominate the two vice-chairs of the body. The NPIA should be able to elect its own vice-chairs, as do all other police authorities. If that were not the case, it would be undemocratic. It is necessary to underpin local accountability for policing with the police authority, as distinct from the local authority. The two have different responsibilities and we should not blur them.
My Lords, I hope that I shall contribute to the wonderful atmosphere to which the Minister has referred by thanking her for agreeing not to throw out the baby with the bath water in getting rid of the magistrates’ representation on the new authorities. They are a vital part of the mix. I am trying to choose my words with care. To do away with them would be absolute folly. Therefore, I am very grateful to the Minister, as I am sure are others. I dare say that in some cases you could have more than one of the relevant people, as the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, said. I again thank the Minister.
My Lords, I hesitate to change the tone of some of the discussion that has taken place, but I will do so in the nicest possible way. First, I apologise to my noble friend for having missed the first few seconds of her remarks in introducing her very welcome group of amendments. They are welcome as regards what they say; my concern is about one or two things that they leave out and where they have gone beyond what makes sense or beyond a consensus that is emerging around those issues. I will speak to Amendments Nos. 13, 19 and 20.
Amendments Nos. 13 and 19 make it a requirement that the local authority members of police authorities and the GLA members of the Metropolitan Police authorities should be selected so as to deliver a proportion of members broadly in line with the political balance in the areas concerned. That is important because it makes it an obligation on councils in nominating members to police authorities. Currently, local government law requires that an individual local authority making nominations to an external body should do so in line with political balance, but it is not at all clear that there is such a requirement where this is being done jointly by a number of local authorities, particularly where there are authorities with different levels of responsibility in that mix. That is extremely important in the context of the operation of police authorities.
Clearly, a great deal of effort has been put in over the years to achieve a balanced membership of police authorities, so that until now elected members have been in a majority of one over independent and magistrate members. That provides a democratic legitimacy to what is being done but with room for a range of other experience and backgrounds to be represented as well. The principle that councillor members should reflect the political balance of the area that the police authority covers is important because it emphasises that democratic link, but it also ensure that the full range of political views in an area is represented.
I put it to your Lordships that if there were an area where most of the local councils were led by one political party rather than another, a committee of those authorities would automatically send to the police authority representation solely of that political party. There might be a circumstance in which a political party led by one seat in each of the councils, but the nature of bringing them together in a joint committee and inviting them to nominate could, without this amendment, lead to a single party dominating the situation. The removal of the provision for a majority of one—we talk simply about a majority, for reasons that we all understand—could lead to the domination of a police authority by one political party.
I suppose that, like the political Members of your Lordships’ House, if it was our political party in that dominant position we might think that that would be absolutely fine and dandy, but I rather suspect that the reality would be much more complicated. It seems to me that ensuring such a balance is a way of ensuring that decisions about policing are achieved by cross-party consensus in the areas concerned. It has been the reality that police authorities around the country have operated in a consensual fashion on most of the issues with which they have had to contend. That does not mean that there have not been political arguments or arguments about matters affecting policing, but those arguments have tended not to be along party political lines, except on very specific matters. We are in danger of creating a situation where police authorities as a whole would be attacked on political grounds by people from other political parties who had been unfairly excluded from the process or had had reduced representation because there would not be the requirement for political balance.
If we want, as I am sure all your Lordships do, a fair and impartial service that is seen to be fair and impartial and one that is not influenced by the political concerns of one political party or another, it is important that that principle is written into primary legislation. I would have thought that my amendments would enable that to happen and would ensure that the political membership of police authorities was balanced across the area concerned. Those are my reasons for tabling Amendments Nos. 13 and 19.
Amendment No. 20 looks at the unique position of the Metropolitan Police Authority. I declare a current interest in that I remain a member of that authority. Indeed, I am grateful to my noble friend for reinforcing the position under which I hold a mandate to sit on that authority by ensuring that that mandate is contained within the Bill and that I am the Home Office nominee to the police authority in London.
In London, following consultations conducted by the government office over the past year, it has been decided that the chair of the police authority should be appointed by the Mayor of London. A broad consensus has emerged and the formulation contained in the Bill on that matter is probably the best statement that one can have: that the Mayor can chose to appoint himself, or herself, to the police authority, in which case he should chair the authority. That is a sensible arrangement should the Mayor, whoever that might be, want to be seen to be taking the lead role on policing. But if the Mayor chose not to appoint himself to that office, he would choose from among the members of the police authority. The inclusion of that provision is welcome and there has been some discussion about that.
But nowhere previously has there been any discussion about the Mayor of London appointing the vice-chairs of the police authority—and I am not sure where that suggestion has come from. It does not seem to have emanated from the Mayor’s office or from New Scotland Yard; and I can assure noble Lords, given my discussions in the past week, that it has not emanated from the Metropolitan Police Authority. It may be that some over-worked civil servant, desperate to prepare the amendments in time for consideration by your Lordships’ House, has simply read across from one bit of legislation to another. After all, these things do not happen in such a slapdash and inconsequential way, but there seems to be some strange read-across regarding this. We want to avoid a situation in which the other members of the police authority feel alienated from the Mayor of London. There may be an acceptance that the Mayor should chair the police authority, or should appoint the chair, but it would seem a step too far to state that the main officers of the police authority should be mayoral appointments, even if they are members of the police authority.
Perhaps my noble friend might take this away. There are several days before we need to consider this Bill at Third Reading and there will be ample opportunity to put this matter right. I am not sure that such a proposal was the original intention and it was certainly not discussed during the earlier phases of consultation.
My Lords, I hope that I will be able to reassure my noble friend Lord Harris that comity can prevail. I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Tenby, for his thanks, because I know how anxious he has been on behalf of magistrates. It has given me considerable pleasure to give him a little pleasure in relation to this matter.
My noble friend Lord Harris’s amendment to place the principle of political proportionality in the Bill is important. In deciding what to place in the Bill and what to leave to secondary legislation, we have had carefully to balance the need to protect the constitutional position of police authorities against the need to increase the flexibility of the legislation. We feel that we have struck the right balance with these amendments. However, I accept that the principle of political proportionality is important and my noble friend’s comments graphically illustrated why. That principle was also conceded by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris. I make no comment about their two names, but they always appear to act in unison in relation to these matters. I am happy to give an undertaking that it will form part of the regulations that the Government intend to table under this provision because I understand the anxiety about them.
I shall also respond to my noble friend’s amendment in relation to the appointment of the vice-chairman of the Metropolitan Police Authority and explain how this came about. As my noble friend identified, Amendment No. 18 enables the Mayor of London to appoint the chairman and the vice-chairman of the authority. My noble friend’s amendment gives the power in relation to the vice-chairman to the authority itself. It is our view that, as a vice-chairman is empowered to act as chair in the absence of the chairman, it is logical for that position to be appointed in the same way. That will bring the authority into line with other Greater London Authority functional bodies.
I hope that, in the light of the movement that the Government have made on the other issues, my noble friend—
My Lords, I hesitate to interrupt my noble friend in full flow, but can she remind me of the provisions that say that the Mayor of London appoints the vice-chairman of the London Fire and Civil Defence Authority?
My Lords, I understand that the Mayor currently appoints the other chairs, the vice-chair fulfils the position in the chair’s absence and that that is a perfectly acceptable way of dealing with these matters. Bearing in mind the munificence that the Government have showered on the Bill so far, I hesitate to suggest that my noble friend would not appreciate the delicacy of the balance that we now seek to strike. This is our current view, and I hope my noble friend will be able to accept it as an appropriate accommodation. I understand if he wishes to talk further, but I assure him that this is not a capricious settlement. It has come about as a result of looking at all the other issues and reaching a fair accommodation and a proportionate settlement. I hope that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw his objection and that the noble Baronesses, Lady Anelay and Lady Harris, will also do so.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 12 to 17 not moved.]
My Lords, I must advise the House that if Amendment No. 18 is agreed to, I will not be able to call Amendments Nos. 19 and 20 by reason of pre-emption.
moved Amendment No. 18:
Page 80, line 35, leave out paragraph 5 and insert-
“ In section 5C (membership etc of Metropolitan Police Authority), in subsection (6), for “Schedules 2A and 3” there is substituted “Schedule 2A”.
For Schedule 2A there is substituted-
SCHEDULE 2A Section 5C THE METROPOLITAN POLICE AUTHORITY Membership of Authority 1 (1) The Secretary of State shall by regulations make provision in relation to the membership of the Metropolitan Police Authority.
(2) Regulations under this paragraph shall provide for the Authority to consist of-
(a) persons appointed from among the persons specified in sub-paragraph (3), and (b) other persons, including at least one lay justice. (3) The persons referred to in sub-paragraph (2)(a) are-
(a) the Mayor of London, and (b) members of the London Assembly. (4) Regulations under this paragraph shall-
(a) specify the number of members falling within paragraph (a) and paragraph (b) of sub-paragraph (2), and (b) secure that the majority of members of the Authority are persons falling within paragraph (a) of that sub-paragraph. (5) Those regulations may make further provision as to qualification for membership, and may provide for a specified number of the members of the Authority to be persons of a specified description.
(6) Those regulations may include provision as to-
(a) how a member is to be appointed; (b) disqualification for membership; (c) the tenure of office of a member (including the circumstances in which a member ceases to hold office or may be removed or suspended from office); (d) re-appointment as a member; (e) the validity of acts and proceedings of a person appointed as a member in the event of his disqualification or lack of qualification; (f) the validity of proceedings of the Authority in the event of a vacancy in membership or of a defect in the appointment of a member or in the composition of the Authority; (g) the payment of remuneration and allowances to a member and the reimbursement of expenses. Appointment of members from London Assembly etc 2 Regulations under paragraph 1 shall provide that the members falling within paragraph 1(2)(a) are to be appointed by the Mayor of London.
Appointment of other members 3 (1) Regulations under paragraph 1 shall provide that-
(a) one of the members falling within paragraph 1(2)(b) is to be appointed by the Secretary of State, and (b) the other members are to be appointed by the existing members of the Metropolitan Police Authority from among persons on a short-list prepared by a selection panel. (2) Those regulations may make provision as to qualification for membership of a selection panel, and may provide for a specified number of the members of a panel to be persons of a specified description.
(3) Those regulations may include provision as to-
(a) the number of members of a selection panel; (b) how and by whom a member of a panel is to be appointed; (c) disqualification for membership; (d) the tenure of office of a member of a panel (including the circumstances in which a member ceases to hold office or may be removed or suspended from office); (e) re-appointment as a member of a panel; (f) the conduct of proceedings of a panel, including any procedures that a panel is to follow; (g) the validity of acts and proceedings of a person appointed as a member of a panel in the event of his disqualification or lack of qualification; (h) the validity of proceedings of a panel in the event of a vacancy in membership or of a defect in the appointment of a member or in the composition of the panel; (i) the payment of remuneration and allowances to a member of a panel and the reimbursement of expenses. Chairman and vice chairmen 4 (1) The Secretary of State shall by regulations provide that-
(a) if the Mayor of London is a member of the Metropolitan Police Authority, he is to be the chairman; (b) if not, the Mayor of London is to appoint a chairman from among the members of the Authority. (2) The Secretary of State shall by regulations provide that the Mayor of London may appoint one or more vice-chairmen from among the members of the Authority.
(3) Regulations under this paragraph may make further provision about how a chairman or vice-chairman is to be appointed, and provision as to-
(a) qualification and disqualification for appointment; (b) the tenure of office of a chairman or vice-chairman (including the circumstances in which a chairman or vice-chairman ceases to hold office or may be removed or suspended from office); (c) eligibility for re-appointment; (d) the validity of acts and proceedings of a person appointed as chairman or vice-chairman in the event of his disqualification or lack of qualification; (e) the validity of proceedings of the Authority in the event of a vacancy in the office of chairman or vice-chairman or of a defect in the appointment of a chairman or vice-chairman; (f) the payment of remuneration and allowances to a chairman or vice-chairman and the reimbursement of expenses. Standards committees 5 The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision as to the payment of remuneration and allowances to, and the reimbursement of expenses of, members of the Metropolitan Police Authority's standards committee.
Consultation 6 Before making any regulations under this Schedule, the Secretary of State shall consult-
(a) the Metropolitan Police Authority, (b) the Association of Police Authorities, (c) the Greater London Authority, (d) persons whom he considers to represent the interests of London boroughs, and (e) such other persons as he thinks fit. Supplementary 7 (1) Regulations under this Schedule may make transitional, consequential, incidental and supplemental provision or savings.
(2) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this Schedule shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
Interpretation 8 In this Schedule “lay justice” has the meaning given by section 9 of the Courts Act 2003.””
On Question, amendment agreed to.
moved Amendments Nos. 21 to 23:
Page 82, line 40, leave out “section 4(10)” and insert “paragraph 8 of Schedule 2”
Page 82, line 41, leave out paragraph 7.
Page 83, line 3, leave out from “Schedules” to “are” and insert “3 (police authorities: selection of independent members) and 3A (police authorities: selection of lay justice members)”
On Question, amendments agreed to.
moved Amendment No. 24:
Page 83, line 6, leave out paragraphs 9 and 10.
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, Amendment No. 24 tackles another aspect of the Secretary of State’s powers to supervise police authorities. Yet again, the Government are trying to move matters from primary legislation to secondary legislation. This amendment removes two paragraphs from Schedule 2. Paragraph 9 adds to the general functions of a police authority that are set out in Section 6 of the Police Act 1996. The primary duty under existing legislation is to secure an efficient and effective police force for the police authority’s area. The change introduced in paragraph 9 makes clear that it is the job of police authorities to hold the chief officer of police to account in the exercise of his functions and those of persons under his control and direction. The change has been welcomed by the Association of Police Authorities, but ACPO is concerned about it. Its view is that this new provision, when taken together with other changes currently taking place to the way in which the personal performance of chief officers is assessed, will create a linear relationship between police authorities and chief officers. They are also concerned about moving to secondary legislation the provisions relating to policy plans.
When the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, responded to the debate in Committee, at col. 703 of Hansard, he said that the Government were prepared to look at this issue in particular in time for Report. I tabled the amendment to ask the Government whether they have used the past three months since Committee to consult ACPO further on these matters, and, if so, what the response has been. I beg to move.
My Lords, I should inform the House that if this amendment is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendments Nos. 25, 26 or 27.
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment No. 25 in my name and, in doing so, shall comment on the points that have just been made by the noble Baroness in respect of Amendment No. 24.
If you believe in the principle that police authorities should be able to set the strategic direction of police forces, part of that should be about being able to hold the chief officer of police to account for the exercise of those functions. If you do not have that provision, essentially you are saying that chief officers of police are not accountable and that there is no transparency in the way in which they choose to exercise their functions. That is very different from saying that the police authority “shall instruct” or “will require” a police chief to operate in a particular way. It is saying that chief officers of police will be accountable for the decisions that they have made. Most of the chief officers of police that I have accounted for have usually been more than capable of giving an account of themselves and explaining the reasons for the actions that they took, but it is important that under the legislation they are required to do so and that they do so publicly and transparently. That is why I believe that Amendment No. 24 is not entirely helpful.
Perhaps unlike the amendments that I put forward earlier, Amendment No. 25 is intended to be entirely helpful towards the Government, as ever. Here, I am seeking to place in the Bill a requirement—meaning that it is something that police authorities will have to take very seriously—for different police forces and authorities to work together wherever necessary or expedient. It is important that police authorities ensure that their forces co-operate with other forces and their partners; that should be something that police authorities do. But I believe that, by stating it explicitly in the Bill, one gives it particular force and it will ensure that we see authorities working together better than has been the experience in the past.
I note that when my right honourable friend the Home Secretary withdrew from some of the proposals to create strategic police forces and put them into the long grass—I am sure that he used a more elegant phrase than that—he said very clearly that there was an expectation that there would be better collaboration and working together between police forces in neighbouring areas, not only on matters concerning level 2 crime and the sorts of strategic issues that have been of concern but on other matters—for example, in trying to reduce back-office and joint procurement costs and so on. My amendment would provide a framework essentially requiring police authorities and police forces to work together. I believe that that is in the spirit of what the Government have been seeking to do, perhaps by going slower on the question of police service mergers, and it would be helpful to the objectives that my right honourable friend has set out. Therefore, I hope that my noble friend will feel able to support my amendment.
My Lords, I very much regret that these Benches cannot support Amendment No. 24 as it would remove the part of the Bill that refers to a key police authority function—that of holding the chief officer to account for the exercise of his or her functions, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, said. I simply do not know what a police authority does if it does not do that. What is a police authority for? It should therefore be in primary legislation.
I am aware, of course, that ACPO is concerned about this and refers to the creation of the linear relationship, but in some senses it has that already, in that the police authority appoints those of ACPO rank. However, I assume that it is concerned about its operational independence, but we do not believe that the amendment interferes with that at all. Holding a chief officer to account for the delivery of his or her functions is about asking for an account after those functions have been carried out. It is not a mechanism that would allow anyone to direct a chief officer before something happened on how, where, why, or against whom he or she should take action. That is a misunderstanding of the meaning of holding to account.
I regret that we could not support Amendment No. 24. However, we support entirely Amendment No. 25, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Harris. It places a duty on police authorities in primary legislation to ensure that their forces co-operate with other forces and partners. This is very important in the post-merger landscape, where the focus is now going to be on increased collaboration between forces to deal with protective services—the area that we are all very concerned about. Section 23 of the 1996 Act allows chief constables to act jointly in more effectively carrying out force functions, but it seems to allow police authorities to act jointly only in terms of back-office functions. In addition, the over-arching function of a police authority is to secure an effective and efficient police service for its area, which seems to place a limitation on considering the wider good to policing to be had from co-operation.
For those reasons it is extremely important to put something in primary legislation that places a duty on police authorities to consider the wider landscape and enables police authorities to ensure that wider collaboration happens. It is also important that authorities are given specific governance powers to exercise oversight of force activity for those protective services. If not, it is easy for chief officers to circumvent authorities and come to their own arrangements with other forces. This means that they cannot be held properly to account for those functions by the police authority. That makes it sufficiently important to be in primary legislation.
My Lords, as ever, I listened with interest to the arguments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, on Amendment No. 24, and with great interest to the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, on Amendment No. 25.
It will not have escaped your Lordships’ notice that we have tabled amendments to paragraph 11 of Schedule 2, which deals with the policing plans. That set of amendments return some of the detail on the functions of police authorities into primary legislation, which we shall come to in due course. I recognise the importance of preserving key principles in primary legislation, and we have made that plain previously. The primary police authority functions of maintaining an efficient and effective police force and holding the chief officer to account for the way in which he or she discharges his or her functions will remain in the Police Act 1996.
In amendments to come we are also restoring to the 1996 legislation the functions relating to the issuing of policing plans. It is entirely appropriate therefore that, having set out in primary legislation the core functions of police authorities, there should be some flexibility to add other functions by secondary legislation.
Amendment No. 24, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, would remove the new order-making power inserted by paragraph 10 of Schedule 2. It would also remove paragraph 9 of Schedule 2, which includes the new function of holding the chief officer to account. These new functions, as we have heard this afternoon from the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, have been welcomed by the Association of Police Authorities—rightly and understandably so. Indeed, the association offered them up as propositions. I cannot believe that the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, really wishes to deny police authorities that enhanced role, which would be the effect of her amendment. I have listened carefully to the important rhetoric of new localism from all parts of your Lordships’ House. If we were to go down the route of the noble Baroness, we would fundamentally undermine that.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, described his Amendment No. 25 as helpful, and I see the measure of help therein. I understand his argument to include a duty in the Police Act on police authorities to secure arrangements for their police forces to co-operate with other forces whenever necessary or expedient. We are certainly in the same policy ballpark, and operating with a similar intent. It would be hard for me to disagree with the sentiments behind this amendment, given that he has lifted the wording from new Section 6ZA(2)(b) of the 1996 Act.
It is essential, in the absence of mergers—the noble Lord said they had been kicked into the long grass; one might say that they have been placed in deep freeze—that forces co-operate more effectively to narrow the protective services gap and secure greater efficiencies in the provision of back-office functions. While I wholly endorse what my noble friend seeks to achieve—we have a similar view—our intention is to use the new order-making power in new Section 6ZA to confer such functions on police authorities. It is perhaps worth reiterating that the Delegated Powers Committee had no difficulty with that order-making power.
I ask my noble friend not to press his amendment on the basis that we seek the same end—a shared policy objective—albeit that the Bill takes a slightly different path to the one he proposes. I hope that noble Lords will take some encouragement from those comments.
My Lords, is the Minister therefore saying that he will introduce this power explicitly under regulations?
My Lords, that would be the effect, yes.
My Lords, I am interested in the use of “that would be the effect”. The Minister then said “yes”, which I hope is an absolute answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey. We might consider that further.
I shall deal first with the Minister’s response to my Amendment No. 24. I have always made it clear that it was tabled so that ACPO might have an opportunity for a response. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, that it is vital that we have local accountability—the thrust of the Bill—whereas we all agree that there should be no interference with operational matters. We will return to that in a later debate.
I am interested in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey. It was tabled in exactly the right spirit: post the Government’s haste in seeking to force mergers, we must look at the new policing landscape which will obtain. It is important to see how to improve collaboration, particularly on protective services and strategic services overall. I should perhaps now declare an interest, or my thanks, to my own police in Surrey. This summer, they asked if I would like to see one of the strategic services in operation, and I went along to Fairoaks where the Surrey police helicopter is based. Of course, one never knows if the helicopter is going to be called into service; whether it was fortunate for the people of Surrey or not, it was fortunate for me that it was. I was therefore able to observe the remarkable service they provide to Surrey at close quarters, and how they co-operate with other police forces. We shall need to consider how that is best delivered in the months and, I hope, years to come—if the Government do not press ahead with forced mergers until the next Prime Minister calls an election.
It was never my intent to press this amendment, but I am grateful to the Minister for his response. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 25 not moved.]
My Lords, I had understood that a Statement would be made after four o’clock and before I moved the next amendment.