asked Her Majesty’s Government:

What are the reasons for the reduction in the number of those travelling by bus outside London.

My Lords, the number of journeys by bus has been falling since the 1950s. This is due primarily to the continuing increase in car ownership and usage. Although in recent years London has seen an increase in bus use, the trend has not been reflected in most areas outside the capital. The Government are currently carrying out a review of bus issues to see where changes can be made that could increase bus patronage.

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer. Does he agree that the problem outside London is that local authorities contribute sometimes quite large sums of money to subsidise bus services but have no control over service provision or charges? I welcome the latest review on buses. The Secretary of State for Transport recently said that there would possibly be some legislation in the next Session. Will my noble friend ensure that one of the options in the review will be for local authorities to franchise bus services, rather as they do trains? That would not only bring in competition but enable local authorities to have some control of where and when buses go and how much the charges are.

My Lords, I am aware that my noble friend takes a keen interest in these issues. I assure him that formal franchise will be looked at seriously. He will recognise that local authorities have access at present to quality contracts, although on the whole they have not taken those up, because they have regarded the legislative constraints as being too onerous. We are looking at that matter.

My Lords, can the Minister give us any further details of the review that he has mentioned, including a timetable? Will he assure us that, as part of any consultation that may arise, the views of bus owners and operators will be seriously considered?

My Lords, we certainly intend to include all stakeholders in the discussions that we are holding, which are ongoing. As far as the timescale is concerned, it is not exactly a formal review, but there is an indication from the Minister that we intend to complete our work in this area before Christmas.

My Lords, I am sure that many noble Lords would agree that competition does not actually work in many areas of the country, and they would further agree that some of the big groups,by abusing their dominant position, are frightening off small competitors by targeting fare cuts andbetter services whenever a competitor arises and subsequently withdrawing them. Will the noble Lord please ensure that, in reviewing the bus industry, the Minister addresses the competition issues, so that the intentions of the 1985 Act, that there should be competition, are actually realised?

My Lords, competition issues are important, and we are aware that certain practices may militate against fresh competitive opportunities for smaller companies. Equally clearly, some large companies provide a very good service. We are looking at this closely, and I assure the noble Lord and the House that all the points will be taken seriously into account.

My Lords, does the noble Lord appreciate how important the bus service is in rural areas for young people who need to be able to get to employment and for elderly people who need to be able to get to post offices—if village post offices are going to be closed—and to the shops at convenient times and at sensible rates? In my village, at one stage, we had one bus on the third Thursday of every month, which did not serve anyone. I admit that the service there has improved, but the problem exists in a lot of places.

My Lords, certainly the bus plays a crucial part in the rural economy, and it will be recognised that we have taken measures that will increase the demand for buses. The concessionary fares scheme, which will be universal in 2008, should result in an increase in patronage, and we are helping young people still in education who use buses. My noble friend is absolutely right that the bus is a crucial form of communication and transport for those who have the fewest resources.

My Lords, will the review that my noble friend has referred to on more than one occasion this afternoon include a good look at the use of postbuses? Will the Government designate postbuses in the same way as they have designated the rest of the British Post Office—as dispensable? Will he reassure me that the Post Office will be a stakeholder? It could certainly provide a service more than once a week on a Monday morning.

My Lords, my noble friend introduces an important point. I should emphasise that some solutions to our rural problems may lie in ensuring that those who provide one service are able to extend their activities to provide other services. The postbus is an important concept in that respect and will be taken into account.

My Lords, would not a simple way of getting people into buses on motorways be to extend the park-and-ride principle to a 50-mile circle round London and all other major cities? Large car parks there would make life much easier for commuters, who could get into a coach and do their work on it, instead of sitting behind a wheel.

My Lords, that is an interesting concept, although the noble Lord will recognise that identifying destinations in London for bus routes from 50 miles outside would present significant problems. The noble Lord is right in that this is what is happening in places such as Cambridge, where car use is restricted in the city centre and buses have access, and it is expected that the park-and-ride scheme will be widely utilised. The more that such schemes are developed, the more that both transport and the environment in which people live and work in cities will be improved.

My Lords, the Minister hinted at the concessionary fares scheme that will come to England in 2008. Does he agree that one of the major achievements of the Liberal Democrat/Labour partnership Government in Wales has been free travel for pensioners and others throughout the Principality, which has saved bus routes and has been a boon to the elderly?

My Lords, of course I am always prepared to learn from the Principality on the advantages derived from the Labour/Liberal partnership, but the noble Lord will recognise that England’s extensive geography has always presented a much greater challenge in terms of concessionary fare schemes. However, this Government have now acted for England as well.