asked Her Majesty’s Government:

How many tonnes of dead fish are thrown back into the sea each year under the European Union’s common fisheries policy; and what prospect they see of ending this practice.

My Lords, no estimates exist for the overall amount of discards in European Union fisheries. However, there is a general recognition that this problem needs to be accurately addressed. We are working with the fishing industry, as well as with the Commission and other member states, to find appropriate solutions that affect the particular circumstances of individual fisheries.

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply. Let us hope that this proposed reform, like others before it, does not end up in the long seaweed.

When the Minister says that there are no official estimates, is he aware that Fisheries Commissioner Borg has estimated that 880,000 tonnes of fish are thrown back dead every year? If the Government accept that an articulated lorry holds 42 tonnes of fish, do they agree that the EU’s dead fish amount to 20,000 articulated lorries, which would fill the Palace of Westminster, and Whitehall, several times over? Will the noble Lord tell us precisely who has been blocking reform of this policy for so many years, and how?

My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord says about estimates of discards, and they are to be regretted. I cannot confirm his figures, but the figures that we have indicate that the level of discards is unacceptably high. In terms of percentage of the catch, in certain areas, that can be as high as 60 or 70 per cent. Clearly, that issue needs to be confronted.

Who is blocking reform? No one is doing so. The problem is acute and difficult. Fishermen cannot control the fish they catch, but they are allowed to land only certain fish for the market. Consequently, they discard those fish that are not marketable; they also discard fish that are less profitable than those that might be caught subsequently on the fishing trip. All these processes build up the possibility of discard. The issue for the European Commission, the community as a whole, and everyone concerned with the welfare of the fishing industry, is how we control this waste, when it is clear that fishermen have a perverse incentive to indulge in it.

My Lords, is it not quite clearly the case that New Zealand and Norway have quota systems, like the European Union, which do not allow discards? It is quite possible to do that through the trading of quotas at the end of fishing periods. Is not the real answer to the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, that qualified majority voting is needed to make real progress in the European Union on the common fisheries policy; and does not the European reform treaty, at last, do that?

My Lords, I thought we might broaden the debate to issues concerned with European policy makers, but let me stay with the fishing industry. It is not easy to control discards. I hear what the noble Lord says about Norway and New Zealand being successful. Iceland also has a strong policy in this area. However, there is a great deal of doubt about whether those policies work effectively. We are not sure that banning discards, which the European Commission is looking at very seriously, is the solution to the problem. The British Government’s approach is rather one of encouraging fishermen to employ the appropriate gear for the catch that they intend to take so that they do not, inadvertently, catch other fish that are then subject to discard.

My Lords, would not my noble friend agree that the lorries referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, are all acting highly illegally if they are carrying 42 tonnes of fish, because their maximum gross vehicle weight is 44 tonnes? They are probably at least eight tonnes over weight. Would he investigate where these illegal activities are taking place?

My Lords, I was more worried about the destination of those lorries. They would certainly be illegal in Whitehall or the Palace of Westminster.

My Lords, would the Minister tell us whether the Government have any figures on the proportion of fish consumed in this country, and in Europe as a whole, that has been smuggled in through the Canary Islands? Recently published figures amount to as much as 50 per cent. The fish are caught by large vessels spending years at sea, many of them placed in the Asia Pacific region, hoovering up large quantities of fish. Has he discussed this problem with the Spanish Government and, if not, will he do so?

My Lords, that is an additional dimension to the complexity of the position. The noble Lord will appreciate that the European Commission needs to develop a policy that works for those fisheries which are closer to home. It certainly needs to examine the potential abuse identified by the noble Lord. However, inevitably, the main concentration of potential action relates to those fisheries which are in member countries of the European Union.

My Lords, would the Minister agree that the total allowable catch and quota system is bound to lead to large amounts of discarding?

My Lords, there is no doubt that, by definition, it is a consequence of controls over catches. Equally clearly, however, there was a real danger of certain fishing stocks disappearing entirely. There has been a growth of North Sea cod in the past couple of years and a recovery—not sufficient for the total allowable catch to be greatly increased, but a potential increase of cod—after we had been faced with the danger of it becoming extinct.

My Lords, does the Minister not agree that the common fisheries policy is becoming a farce? The purpose of quotas is presumably to conserve fish stocks. You do not conserve any fish stocks if you net them and kill half of them because you are allowed to land only a few. If that happens, why cannot the fish to be discarded be used for fertiliser or in some form of manufacture?

My Lords, as I have indicated, we want to see support and investment in the industry so that the catches are more selective and discard does not arise. First, that helps with the process of conservation and, secondly, the fishermen go out and return with catches that are marketable, therefore sustaining themselves more effectively. That is surely a constructive approach to the issue, which the British Government are emphasising should be developed by the European Commission.