asked Her Majesty’s Government:

What steps they are taking to reduce the size of the prison population.

My Lords, the Government have accepted recommendations in the 2007 review of prisons by the noble Lord, Lord Carter, to better align the supply and demand for prison places in the medium to long term. The Government aim to achieve an overall net capacity of 96,000 prison places by 2014.

My Lords, that is a disappointing Answer because my Question was about reducing, not increasing, the prison population. Does my noble friend agree that in 2003 the noble Lord, Lord Carter, said that,

“there is no convincing evidence that further increases in the custody rate … will significantly reduce crime”?

My right honourable friend Jack Straw said recently that,

“you have got to have a rational debate about the number of prison places that need to be provided”.

Where is that rational debate, given that the Government seem to have rushed in to increase the number of prison places without such a debate?

My Lords, we always welcome rational debate. There has been considerable discussion about prison policy, and it is the Government’s view that we should always provide enough prison places for serious offenders: those are the people who should be behind bars—the most dangerous people in society. That is why we need the increase that I have just described. Equally, there is a strong case for community sentencing for other offenders, where again we have seen an expansion in the past few years.

My Lords, would it be possible to enlarge the role of the Parole Board to reduce the number of prisoners?

My Lords, I am not sure that enlarging the role of the Parole Board would necessarily lead to that result. I certainly pay tribute to the board and Sir Duncan Nichol who has chaired it so excellently in the past few years. The board’s role is clearly set out and it does its functions very well.

My Lords, does the Minister accept that we will never build our way out of this crisis of prison overcrowding and that the only real answer must lie with a more selective use of custody by judges? Does he agree that, given just an average period for the preliminary measures that have to be taken and the rise in the prison population over the past two or three years, long before the first person enters a Titan prison the whole system will have gone completely through the roof?

My Lords, I do not agree with the noble Lord’s terminology that “the system has gone through the roof”. We clearly face considerable pressure within the system as it is. That is why we are embarking on the Titan prison programme. At the moment, it is subject to consultation in relation to the design and features of such prisons, but I reiterate that the Government’s view is that prison must be the right place for serious offenders in the way that I have described. Equally, one cannot ignore the increase in community sentences and the impact of offender management programmes. In the past few years, we have seen their outcome in the reduction in the offending rate.

My Lords, does the Minister agree with my finding that the majority of women in prison are not dangerous, serious or violent offenders but are a danger only to themselves? Does he accept my main recommendation that these women should not be imprisoned, but should be dealt with more appropriately in the community and that the prison population would reduce if my report were implemented in full?

My Lords, I pay tribute to my noble friend for the excellence of her report. She will know that the Government have accepted almost all her recommendations. She is right that prison will remain an option for women who commit serious offences but, for women who do not need to be in custody, we need to make sure that we have the right provision and programmes focused on the prevention of reoffending. I agree with my noble friend.

My Lords, I shall ask the Minister a simple question: if the crime rate is falling, why are prison numbers rising? How has the system produced this anomaly?

My Lords, perhaps it is the fact that potential criminals know that prison may be the end of the road for their wrongdoings or perhaps it is to do with more effective policing. One thing is for sure: we should rejoice at the reduction in crime in this country.

My Lords, are we asking the right question? Government legislation requires that judges consider custody in certain cases, so, in the interests of the law-abiding public, would it not be more appropriate to ask why the Government have not provided enough places to keep criminals out of circulation for the whole period of their sentence?

My Lords, the purpose of the review by my noble friend Lord Carter was to make sure that we had the right balance between the supply and demand for prison places. That is why we are increasing provision to around 96,000 by 2014. One of my noble friend’s recommendations was the establishment of a framework for high-level policy decisions and discussions about getting right the essential balance between sentencing policy in general and the provision of places without fettering the individual judicial discretion that is inherent in our system of sentencing policy.

My Lords, the previous Lord Chief Justice estimated that 60 per cent of all lifers were exceeding their tariffs by more than a year before being released. There is in prison at the moment a man who is owed more than 40 years on a 16-year tariff. How many prisoners are in prison who have exceeded their tariff? I accept that some of them should still be there but, for administrative reasons, some are there longer, which is more expensive and places an unnecessary burden on the system.

My Lords, I do not have the figures with me, although I will certainly write to the noble Lord with the most up-to-date figures that I can lay my hands on. On the general point, of course some prisoners may be in the position that he described for the reason that he has given, but he should not ignore the improvement that has taken place in the development of offender behavioural programmes, which has allowed for the successful release of many prisoners who have gone on to lead a good and useful life in society.

My Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend can help me. I come back to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. Is it not anomalous that at a time when the crime rate is going down, the number of people in prison is going up? Is that because those going to prison are committing more serious offences, or is it because the judges are now sending more people to prison than they used to? Either way, the Government ought to tell us.

Clearly, my Lords, there are a number of factors in this. There are longer sentences and more offenders are being brought to justice but the overall impact is a reduction in crime and reoffending rates. Surely that is a matter for some satisfaction. We cannot be complacent—we must build on that reduction—but the trends are going in the right direction.