To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to promote a more informed debate on the United Kingdom’s role in European security and defence policy.

My Lords, the Government strongly support the contribution of ESDP to global security, with the proven value of its operations and increased European capability. In February, the Minister for Europe promoted UK participation in ESDP in her speech on citizens and security in Europe, and the Foreign Secretary discussed ESDP operations in his online blogs and addressed European security in his Munich security conference speech. The importance of European security was also underlined in the national security strategy.

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that mildly encouraging reply. I am sure he is aware that the leader of my party dragged a reluctant commitment to closer European defence co-operation out of the Prime Minister at Prime Minister’s Question Time yesterday. Given that this was a British initiative to which Robin Cook, George Robertson and others were deeply committed, why have the Government allowed the public perception of European defence co-operation to slip back into being, as Conservatives appear to believe, a French plot to set up a European army against British sovereignty? Would it not be better to highlight for the public the gains that we get from closer co-operation with the French, in particular, and with the Dutch, the Danes and others in general?

My Lords, I have indicated where government Ministers, including the Foreign Secretary, have been active in promoting ESDP. The noble Lord will recognise that opportunities provide themselves from time to time. The work being done, for instance, to combat piracy off the coast of Somalia relates to ESDP and its work there. I do not accept that the Government have been neglectful in this area. The noble Lord will know that it is more than difficult to get the issues across in some parts of the media whose stance on Europe tends to be severely critical rather than appreciative of where progress is being made.

My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is something a little ironic about the fact that all opinion polls show that the citizens of Europe would like to see more co-operation on security issues, yet the Governments do very little to tell them, despite the protestations of the Minister, what this amounts to? What is the Government’s reaction to the recommendations of this House’s Select Committee that more prominence should be given to the reviewed European security strategy, which was agreed last December, in the presentation of EU policy? Does he not think that today, the day after President Sarkozy made a most welcome speech announcing France’s intention to return to the integrated command of NATO, would be a good day to drive a stake through the myth that somehow there is a competition between the EU and NATO, which we have to raise every time the matter is brought up?

My Lords, this is a good day, and the Government welcome the opportunity to respond to this Question because it enables us to emphasise the importance that we attach to ESDP. The noble Lord is right: the French position has been constructive. When people know the truth about the successful contributions that have been made under the ESDP, it reinforces the noble Lord’s point about public opinion being concerned that there should be adequate and more integrated European defence. But, of course, at times that gets submerged in the absurd debate that somehow there are intentions to create a European army, which there are not and will not be.

In that case, my Lords, does the Minister agree with the former President of the European Commission, who said:

“You can call it Mary Ann, you can call it Margaret”

but it is still an EU army? In that context, for those of us who view the whole project as underfunded and grandiose, is there any hope that the CargoLifter programme, the A400M, is thankfully slipping from postponement to cancellation?

My Lords, it would be an odd concept to have a European army when each member state has to sign up to its contribution and each makes it own decision. The UK certainly insists that it makes its own decisions when it deploys its Armed Forces. The idea that inherent in ESDP is the sacrificing of control of British troops to some overall control envisaged in a European army is just not correct.

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that the points put to him by the noble Lords, Lord Wallace and Lord Hannay, are profoundly wise advice, that the opportunity created by yesterday’s decision by the President of France underlines its importance and that, moreover, if he were to act on all that advice, he would be moving towards achieving an objective first set out very clearly by my noble friend Lady Thatcher in 1984, when she attended the summit of that summer.

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for that accurate historical recollection. He will also know, as will the House, that that was reinforced to a degree by the development of the Maastricht Treaty some time afterwards. Europe is seeking to build on its experience of effective action and there are many parts of the world where this effective action is already apparent. However, the noble Lord will also recognise that, although the Government commit themselves to this debate, it does not mean to say that they are always listened to with the attention they deserve.

My Lords, like my noble and learned friend Lord Howe of Aberavon, I welcome the statement by President Sarkozy today that France is to rejoin the core decision-making of NATO, although, of course, the Minister will accept that as France never left NATO in the first place and has been very active at the operational level, it is presumably more symbolic than a decisive change. Nevertheless, will he speculate on what ways this move will improve relations between the EU and NATO, which have not been very good? Might this be an opportunity also to think about Turkey’s position and whether it should be brought more into the European Defence Agency and other European, NATO and EU-connected operations? Turkey is an enormous resource that does not seem to be fully used in European defence at the moment.

My Lords, I think the President of France’s contribution is a little more than symbolic; it has real intent behind it and is of very considerable significance. We expect to build upon it in improving relationships between the European position and NATO, which have, in the past, been under strain—often because of the French position, which is now subject to this quite significant change. On I accept entirely the noble Lord’s point that Turkey is a significant power and could make a very significant contribution. However, there are many bridges to cross before we see Turkey integrated into the European community and more fully integrated in regard to defence.

My Lords—

My Lords, I regret that we are in the ninth minute.