Question
Asked By
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what they are doing to support the efforts of developing countries to shape an effective and equitable global agreement on climate change.
My Lords, the UK is helping to build capacity in developing countries to enable them to participate fully in the negotiations and has appointed a senior Foreign and Commonwealth Office official as climate envoy for vulnerable countries. That role is designed to help mobilise the voice of the smaller developing countries to enable them to make greater impact on the negotiations.
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. I trust he will agree that the poor countries, and the poorest people in the poor countries, will be hit the earliest and the hardest by climate change. Indeed, they are already being hit. They are the least responsible for the big rise in concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere over the past half-century. Thus, while we all face greater risks from climate change, there is a double inequity.
Further, since the currently developing world has 85 per cent of the world’s population, with many countries showing welcome growth that is essential to overcoming poverty, it will not be possible to reduce global emissions on the scale required unless those countries are centrally involved. Therefore I trust that the Minister agrees that the following are required. In addition to cuts of at least 80 per cent in greenhouse gases, there should be strong support for processes where developing countries take a lead, financial and technical support for action plans, and support for China, Brazil and India.
My Lords, I agree, and I pay tribute to the noble Lord’s outstanding work on climate change, particularly its economics. He is absolutely right; the impact of climate change on some of the poorest countries in the world may be devastating unless we take action to mitigate climate change. That is crucial for a shared understanding and mutual agreement between all the nations of the world.
My Lords, the Minister was clearly unsighted when I asked him this question during yesterday’s debate. Will he tell the House today whether the Government accept or reject DfID’s latest report, which concludes that if any successor to Kyoto is to be effective, it must set up a new international institution with extensive, coercive and enforcement powers, and that any country that does not comply fully should be treated as a pariah and barred from all forms of international co-operation whatever?
My Lords, I would not describe myself as having been unsighted. I recall that I told the noble Lord yesterday that we work very closely with our colleagues in DfID on these matters. I do not recognise the approach which the noble Lord has suggested is the Government’s approach to the agreement and discussions that must take place between developing and developed countries. He is really suggesting what is sometimes called conditionality. I see it as a mutual coming together. There are huge benefits for developing countries in there being agreement in Copenhagen. We must ensure that they have financial and technical assistance, but we must do so through mutual agreement and not in the way which the noble Lord has suggested.
My Lords, given that climate change really will affect developing countries first, fastest and worst, what is being done about adaptation? I note that the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, has just been appointed to the new adaptation sub-committee of the Committee on Climate Change. Will it have an international brief or only a national one?
My Lords, the adaptation sub-committee is a sub-committee of the Committee on Climate Change, so in essence it has a UK brief. I am delighted that we have been able to appoint someone of the calibre of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and I know that it will have a very positive impact on advising the Government on adaptation policies, but that does not mean that we are not very well aware of the need for adaptation strategies in developing countries. Some climate change is inevitable. We will try to mitigate the rise in temperatures generally, but this country, as well as developing countries, will also have to adapt to the inevitability of climate change. Part of our strategy, our aid and our work with developing countries is to assist and support them in their own adaptation work.
My Lords, does my noble friend recall that the noble Lord, Lord Stern, pointed out in his excellent report that 20 per cent of greenhouse emissions were caused by deforestation, most of which is in developing countries? Bearing in mind the long lead time to get institutions working, will the Government assure us that they will urge our negotiators on climate change matters to start setting in process a system of paying some of these developing countries not to deforest? I declare an interest as chair of the Forestry Commission.
My Lords, my noble friend speaks with great authority on the question of forests, and he is right. We think that perhaps upwards of 18 per cent of global emissions come from the forestry sector. I want to reassure him that we want the deal in Copenhagen to include avoided deforestation and the future carbon market to encourage the trading of carbon credits generated from the sector.
My Lords, the question from the noble Lord, Lord Stern, refers to an “effective and equitable global agreement”. Would it not better to start off by conceding that there is not the slightest chance of achieving that?
No, my Lords. I am sorry that my noble friend—who usually looks at life in an optimistic way—takes that view. We are cautiously optimistic about success in the Copenhagen negotiations. It is clear that the US Administration have come to the table in a positive mode, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, who was recently in China, was very encouraged by his discussions with the Chinese Government. Of course we cannot be complacent—there is a long time to go before we get to the table at Copenhagen—but at this stage I remain optimistic.
My Lords, I strongly support the line that the Minister is taking; as the noble Lord, Lord Stern, pointed out, the moment is very late and the cause is crucial to the survival of the planet. The noble Lord, Lord Clark, asked about deforestation. Has the Minister seen reports of the dumping of substantial amounts of toxic waste on countries such as the Ivory Coast which are quite incapable of dealing with it? In the light of these reports, will the Government be speaking to major British companies about the need to deal with these toxic items themselves or by agreement with other developed countries, and not to land the problem on developing countries?
My Lords, the noble Baroness speaks with great authority and she raises a matter of concern. I can reassure her that these issues are very much in the mind of the UK Government in our discussions both with British companies and with other nations. Essentially, we want financial mechanisms that encourage—not force, but encourage—the poorer developing countries to wish to move to a low-emitting economy, which, in itself, will help them develop in a sustainable way.
My Lords, it is important to deal with facts rather than emotions in addressing this very difficult and important subject. Has the Minister seen the latest very detailed survey by Consumer Focus which shows that because of all the additional levies and taxes being put on fuel costs, and despite the lower oil price and relatively low gas price, 44 per cent of people in the United Kingdom are finding the average fuel bill—now £1,288 a year—so high that they have to cut back on their food and other essentials? Is it really fair, right and equitable that we should visit those same burdens on nations and developing countries where income is far, far lower and the danger of fuel poverty is far, far greater?
My Lords, it is always dangerous to interpret the noble Lord, Lord Stern, in front of the noble Lord, Lord Stern. However, surely the conclusion of his work is that while there is and will be an immediate cost to the measures that need to be taken to lead us toward a low-carbon world, the cost of not doing so will be very much greater in the future. That is why we must take action now.
My Lords, rises in sea level caused by climate change will disproportionately affect developing countries with low-lying coastal areas, such as Bangladesh, where millions of people would be displaced by a one-metre rise in the sea level. What help are the Government giving to improving the capacity of those countries to deal with climate change and take an active part in the negotiations on it?
My Lords, my understanding is that 94 million homes in Asia could be flooded by the end of the century. In addition, storm surges in coastal areas could have a devastating impact. This Government and this country have a record to be proud of in the support we are giving to developing countries. We are, for instance, making available £800 million from the ETF for climate investment funds. We are also the major contributor to the International Development Association. We will continue to work with the countries that the noble Lord mentioned, and we are keen to encourage them to be articulate, to come to the table and to play a very important role in levering the kind of agreement that all countries need to sign up to.
My Lords, the huge volcano known as Yellowstone Park erupts approximately every 600,000 years. It is now 640,000 years since it last erupted. We do not know when it will next erupt, but does my noble friend agree that when it does, any agreements will be blown hither and thither?
My Lords, that is rather a speculative question and I may need to take advice on it. In the summer, we will publish the Hadley Centre’s climate impact change forecast for this country. I believe that it will give a measure of the likely climate change that will occur over the next 30 to 40 years and be critical to ensuring that we in this country take the adaptation measures that need to be taken. Of course the methodology—the brilliant work of the Hadley Centre—is applicable to other countries as well. I am sure that it will be helpful in terms of the issues that noble Lords have raised today.